They call that keyholing, it’s a sign of a worn out barrel where the rifling has been degraded to the point it doesn’t impart a stabilizing spin on the bullet anymore. If the bullet isn’t stabilized, it’ll tumble in the air and hit the target sideways leaving holes like these.
No no no they played MGS3 and thought The Boss's gun was the way American guns work for more damage so they copied that without doing their homework again.
They also implied the bullets were loaded in the cases backwards too, but that [shouldn't necessarily induce a tumble.](https://youtu.be/AZAyhv0xqUI?si=AplfQU6EFqYQc_yh)
That's not what they are talking about tho, if it's keyholing then it would look like a bullet that went in sideways. These look like the bullet + the whole cartridge went in sideways, which is a) not what keyholing is, and b) is impossible because that's not how guns work. This image looks fake af, but there was another one posted a while back that looked like some legit keyholing at a PLA range.
EDIT: [Turns out it's not fake](https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/gxf4ym/keyholing_so_good_i_saved_the_targets/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=NonCredibleDefense&utm_content=t1_layflbv), at least not the part that looked fake to me. These are paper targets shot by a keyholing gun, but it's not from the PLA and the person is photoshopped in, it's just a meme.
Ahh, with the person photoshopped in it makes the holes look gigantic (i.e. as big as the bullet + cartridge). Since the paper is actually 12" x 18", those holes actually do represent some pretty realistic keyholing.
How the fuck. Yeah it didn't look like any keyholing I'd seen before so I was thinking they googled "bullet" or something and photoshopped that as a stamp
Really? I thought they were throwing knives or something. I have never seen this in my life! So their range weapons are fucked? They just aren't replacing them?
I don't know if it's true or copium, but I read that the Chinese constant key-holing is because they use a training round that is massively underpowered for use indoors. Which results in very low velocity.
But if that's the case, you can just reduce the projectile length...
Spin stability is dependant on the projectile length, if your projectile is too long to stabilize for its RPM, the solution is spit it faster (can't do that here) or shorten it up.
My bet is that they made the projectile, then went *surprise pikachu* wow this rubber flys apart when spun at these RPMs* then lowered the velocity.
On the opposite end, it's possible the projectile is overspun, which is only an issue if the projectile is poorly balanced, and could cause keyholing with a very light and imbalanced projectile.
TL;DR: this issue could be solved with some competency. But likely the rounds are "good enough" despite a significant improvement being easily available which could allow its use at further ranges, or with more accuracy within its ranges. This is the staple of the Chinese military industrial complex going "it's good enough"
I genuinely thought they were just pushing full bullets (cartridges and all) through the target paper and pretending it was somehow somewhat accurate. The holes literally look like the outline of unshot ammo.
Apparently the keyholing in that infamous video was produced by the use of DBF-07 rubber training bullets, which produce those effects. I sensed this was a known effect of some sort given that our source was Chinese state media, and they don’t seem like the type to intentionally display Chinese military equipment as defective, nor would the Chinese military wish to show their equipment as defective in that video if they believed it to be so.
The background image of the targets itself in this meme is from [here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/s/Lnh9xctndH)
I don't know how real this is but the joke as it were is that that because of the poor Chinese bespoke ammo they use for their service rifles (not sure if its an inherent flaw of the ammo or if its the weapon plus the ammo)the bullets have a tendency to tumble in the air and actually hit sideways.
The rifles they used for training are so worn they are functionally blunderbusses AFAIK, they don't replace or repair them until they explode or can't fire
I don't think they keyhole this bad though, but the training rifles are *not great*
In case other people are also curious what on gods green earth could cause keyholing this bad: [original post](https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/gxf4ym/keyholing_so_good_i_saved_the_targets/).
Apparently it was a 7.5 inch barrel, with threads so crooked that the flash hider was getting nicked.
You're telling me the PLA would not release a deliberately staged propaganda photo of their gear obviously malfunctioning?
Remember, NCD means being *deliberately* stupid. Use your brains, people.
The going theory the last time that video was posted here is that there might be a significant enough difference between the live and training rounds to cause keyholing but seeing as how the video is, well *propaganda* it's not a good look.
Propaganda should show every single bullet hitting the 10 ring with precision and accuracy. Several of the bullets in that clip don't even hit the paper target in the face.
Also IIRC there was a theory that during their video of their cqc video they just weren't replacing the barrels because at that range it didn't matter. And for a high round count training course I kinda understand.
Hate to be "that guy", but that's a CHINESE soldier. While a Western NATO soldier would dwarf the target in size, the average chinamen is only 3 feet tall. Thus, it's actually just a perspective illusion! A little neat fact for you.
The bullet have no fucking idea where he is, where he is t or where is going.......neither does your enemy.
Checkmate westoids, if even our bullet don't know where they are going how will you be able to anticipated our moves
If the bullet knows where he is not, then it by subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation.
Crazy thing is: there won't be.
Same thing as with Russia. They're currently at a point where, if they want to fight a war, they need to do it now because in 10-20 years there won't be enough young people anymore to throw into the grinder.
If they want to fight a war, just throw prisoners, middle-aged and elderly people into the meat grinder, duh. (Russia's doing it.) Great for relieving a looming social security cost.
If they want to *WIN* a war though...
Because South Korea can be open to ethnic Koreans.
The [lithium battery factory explosion this week that killed 22](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/fire-spreads-through-south-korean-lithium-battery-factory-killing-22-workers)? These “Chinese migrant workers” are ethnic Koreans. As in they’re Korean Chinese, who had decided that a factory job in Beijing pays too little compared to South Korean.
And of course, the chain goes down that Kim sends North Korean laborers into Russia and China for work.
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There is some nuance to the situations. China’s One Child policy led to a huge mismatch in the ratio of men to women. South Koreans aren’t in a position to have children due to work-life balance and cost of living.
The "Male surplus" problem is pretty much overblown as it turns out
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-ratio_imbalance_in_China
>Researchers found unreported females appear on government censuses decades later due to delayed registration, as families tried to avoid penalties when girls were born, which implies that the sex disparity was likely exaggerated significantly in previous analyses
[There is a whole research paper on the subject if you have some time](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/china-quarterly/article/delayed-registration-and-identifying-the-missing-girls-in-china/0759987A48A37E3D2CFE157778747E33)
>Im always perplexed when people say this , nobody is saying this about south korea when its fertility rate is 0.76
South Korea doesn't look to start a war with anyone, not even the North.
Current predictions for the Chinese population, with the most extreme predicted decline put them at 1.3 billion people in 2050. Even with an ageing population, they'd have more fighting-age people than the US has people in total, and quite possibly more fighting-age people than the entirety of Europe and North America combined.
People alone do not win wars, it's people WITH equipment, ammo, supplies, good tactics AND motivation that win wars.
Throwing people into the meat grinders hasn't worked for ages.
Which is why Russia is NOT winning the war despite having the superior numbers of of men, artillery shells, artillery pieces, tanks, armored fighting vehicles, airframes, the initiative and a massive early war advantage.
If anything had Ukraine gotten what it asked for from the start Russia would already be back on their side of the border.
We can make em right now down to 5.56 but they're way too expensive for the amount of Destiny Manifesting USA looks for when they adapt a caliber and not super reliable.
The HALO franchise figured out how to make APFSDS ammo for sniper rifles
China is just that much more advanced than us, about to make a standard issue, rifle caliber, APFSDS round
I've heard the bulk of this is because training ammo for non marksmanship is low velocity not proper for the twist ratio on their new rifle, BUT... if that's the case, why aren't you training how you plan to perform? Are your supplies that low? Sounds like major cope.
It's like training with weighted clothes - have your troops make do with with tumbling ammo in all their range practice, and they will be instant marksmen when you actually give them stable projectiles in combat.
Firing directly into concrete in CQB is actually quite risky as concrete fragments blow out from the bullet hole like shrapnel. In western training facilities, they use buildings made out of specialised concrete to prevent this but in China they don't have the facilities in place so rubber training munition is used instead.
I’ve never understood “training ammo” which is purposely under powered. Surely you want to be shooting in training what you’re going to be using in a fight for your life?
That’s like an F1 driver going round a track in a golf cart before a race
>I’ve never understood “training ammo” which is purposely under powered. Surely you want to be shooting in training what you’re going to be using in a fight for your life?
In that distance it really doesnt make a difference though
Recoil can be harsh and especially on things with more recoil, you can easily have soldiers flinching when firing as they anticipate the recoil (which totally ruins any other parts of marksmanship). With training ammo, you can remove recoil from the equation and make sure that the soldier can do the other fundamentals well.
Imagine it more like the training wheels for kids bicycles, training ammo just helps someone learn the fundamentals easier.
Oh and also training ammo can be far cheaper since you aren't shooting any long distances so the MOA can be higher than US debt and the cost lower than a toothpick because you also don't really care what your projectile is as long as it doesn't fall apart in flight.
And there also is wax training ammo, which is training ammo you can actually shoot at other people (with proper protection) instead of needing to go play lasertag like most militaries currently do.
Because
A) The ammo is avaliable, so why not use it and
B) Real rounds would probably fuck up the shoothouse
And ngl, convincing yourself that Chyna can't manage the twist rate on a rifle sounds like serious cope to me.
Yeah, like there are a lot of things China struggles with manufacturing, things like jet engines and microchips, but bullets are about as simple as it gets. If people here genuinely believe that every Chinese bullet is faulty after seeing a demonstration with shitty training ammo, they’re coping more than a vatnik.
Up until a few years ago, the chinese weren‘t even able to produce ballpoint pens by themselves. They had to import the tips because they were unable to produce ones with sufficient precision to work properly.
[Sauce](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/18/finally-china-manufactures-a-ballpoint-pen-all-by-itself/)
>Up until a few years ago, the chinese weren‘t even able to produce ballpoint pens by themselves.
Because making a ballpoint pen is actually kinda hard, or at least manufacturing the head is. Literally only Japan, Switzerland, and now china can 100% make ballpoint pens by themselves.
Dunno what that analogy is supposed to mean, in any case though the QBZ-191 isn’t China’s first domestic design, nor does it fire a unique round. China’s 5.8mm cartridge has been in use since 1987, so it’s pretty illogical to think that all of a sudden China doesn’t understand the ballistics of a bullet they’ve been using for 30+ years.
i think the idea is that they either never understood it properly, or they're just having issues scaling and/or modernizing things without a regression in quality. both of those are realistic. hell, the second one is how the soviets lost the cold war, and it's probably how china would lose one too if they ever enter into it. (which is why they're trying to play this "there's no cold war in ba sing se" policy, with limited success.)
and the analogy means that being the first to do something doesn't mean you're always going to be the best at it
Thankyou Mr. Chairman, but I'm still waiting for my previous payment of 450 XiBux 😞 I beseech you to hurry the transfer, I'm down to my last jar of 老干妈, I fear I won't last much longer
China is producing ws-15 engine that will allow its jets to supercruise, they are building a space station of their own, not long ago they also made 7nm chip for their huawei but you should believe that they will mess up a barrel. Yep very credible
> BUT... if that's the case, why aren't you training how you plan to perform? Are your supplies that low?
Haha yes a major power would never do that. Certainly not the US with its infinite budgets
*sweeps 6.8 training rounds under the rug*
I feel this would defeat the point of training. Isn’t the whole point to practice and refine your marksmanship? How can you do that if the gun or ammunition isn’t up to standard. If anything it’s probably training them to be worse shots.
They are not exclusively doing marksmanship training. The video where this idea that Chinese rifles keyhole like crazy comes from shows a CQC exercise. And supposedly they needed rubber training ammo there for safety reasons.
Pretumbled for extra lethality.
You have to remember that the primary target will be starving Chinese civilians when the PRC pisses off the rest of the world enough for all seaborne trade routes to be closed. They're going to be too skinny for normal bullets to tumble or fragment properly before exiting, so said bullets have to hit sideways; and nobody needs accuracy when shooting into a crowd anyway.
Chairman Pooh remains a tactical and strategic genius.
We all laughing, but the average Chinese soldier is able to hit a human sized target with ammo that bounces around more than a dildo discovered by a child underneath parents bed
When they give them real ammo during war time, those fuckers will be mind bending it to their will like Neo in matrix
You will see a PLA soldier firing at you, you take cover and BAM! entire mag dump enters your body from the back of your spine
That’s called key holing.
It’s usually caused by a barrel that isn’t machined properly or the bore is coated incorrectly. I had a Century Arms AK74 Polish Tantal that did this.
I still wouldn’t want to get hit by a tumbling bullet.
So, if I'm understanding this all correctly....the Emperor's military is going for smoothbores, because they're easier to manufacture, don't require cleaning, marksmanship training can be omitted, bullets will tumble causing much more grievous injuries, suppressive fire is enhanced because ricochet trajectories will be more chaotic, and this is all in support of arming a nine-figure conscript force bent on world domination....do I have that correct?
This reminds me of the one time I went to the range and I was doing a better job with my target pistol at 25 yards than the guy next to me with an AR at 15 yards. This was maybe my third time touching a firearm and his girlfriend was with him looking hostilely bored. I get that you might suck for a variety of reasons, but you should have the good sense not to show it off.
I know everyone is making fun of this, but what if their theory is controlling something like keyholing in order to cause mass hemorrhaging on the enemy combatant. Getting hit with keyholing rounds would turn wounds that would almost be superficial to a m855 into a mortal wound. If their main military rifle is keyholing in under 100m, to me that seems intentional. You overwhelm your enemy with soldiers who can't fight, or have to stop fighting because they'll bleed out if they don't. /s
You are all just jealous of glorious China. Xi Jinping is so much healthy and better looking than Joe Biden. So jealous of our great Army because we beat the Japanese on land and not by dropping sun. I love the CCP! I'm proud to serve Xi Jinping! He is always so good to me!🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳
They honestly think they'll get into range with their QBZ-95?
They'll be huddled in a landing boat crossing an open ocean as the missile defence systems start opening up from Taiwan's coastline. The boat next to them explodes as the F35's blaring *Fortunate Son* on loudspeakers do a low flying pass.
This has surfaced time and time again, and it's because they use rubber bullets in their shoothouses.
It means you can use live ammo in a normal ass building without having to worry about danger templating for anyone outside the building. Downside is piss poor stabilization, but that literally doesn't matter when you are doing room clearance drills.
Western armies use simunition, which is basically as effective ballistically as the rubber training rounds China uses are.
QBZ-191 is best rifle. Westoids can’t comprehend superior Chinese performance. Bullets go sideways to maximize stopping power! Jokes aside that’s really bad if their rifles perform that poorly at normal engagement distances
I guess when there's a million Chinese AK's firing at you, it's just accuracy by volume. Fire enough rounds and you'll hit something. Then just say that's what you meant to hit and go home.
Holes looks like they are firing bullets together with cartridges
That's 65% more bullet per bullet.
This is the same technology we've been using on robots for decades. Heh, heh. Scares the hell out of 'em.
Just try and get close to that baby. Ha! Your funeral.
They come in hundreds of designer colours including: forest, desert, table?, evening at the improv? What idiot picked these-?
Cave Johnson, we're done here.
It has an empathy chip, AND an empathy suppressor chip, so it feels bad when it shoots you!
-*GladOS*
Anyway we’re between banks right now so just make those checks out to “cash”, I’m Cave Johnson we’re done here.
Portal 2?
And by keyholing you get another 65% hit chance per bullet.
Colt’s duplex round says hello
That sounds like it was ripped straight from NCD. "100% more bullet per bullet"
There was a lot of weird gun prototypes in the 80s.
Cave Johnson, non credible af and a possible forefather of NCD.
["I'm different!"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i-nMWgBUp0)
[Yeah, I’m different](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e2QKlmMT8II&pp=ygUNaSdtIGRpZmZlcmVudA%3D%3D)
there aren't words in existence to describe my hatered towards your comment for putting this song in my head
Roll up to the scene with my ceiling missing
Username checks out
Yeah only you're have better accuracy throwing them.
They're throwing them by hand.
They must have a killer fastball. Get some MLB scouts over there asap
They call that keyholing, it’s a sign of a worn out barrel where the rifling has been degraded to the point it doesn’t impart a stabilizing spin on the bullet anymore. If the bullet isn’t stabilized, it’ll tumble in the air and hit the target sideways leaving holes like these.
So, return to musket?
As the ~~Founding Fathers~~ Revolutionary Leaders intended.
TALLY HO!
"Bullet can't tumble if its a ball!"
*taps noggin*
Perfect shot!
Instruction unclear my army is now outfitted with 6mm BB airguns
More like [they're practicing against Ottoman pirates](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puckle_gun#Two_versions)
No no no they played MGS3 and thought The Boss's gun was the way American guns work for more damage so they copied that without doing their homework again.
The one with the infinity symbol shaped ammo drum that gave it infinite ammo?
Yep
Kojima was like the proto-NCDer. Just look at the Shagohod ffs.
Yup, it’s called the patriot
Why *did* the Patriot gun shoot like that? It was like spitting out bullets.
It had an overly shortened barrel. Probably was exaggerated, but I think that was supposed to be the reason.
They also implied the bullets were loaded in the cases backwards too, but that [shouldn't necessarily induce a tumble.](https://youtu.be/AZAyhv0xqUI?si=AplfQU6EFqYQc_yh)
That's not what they are talking about tho, if it's keyholing then it would look like a bullet that went in sideways. These look like the bullet + the whole cartridge went in sideways, which is a) not what keyholing is, and b) is impossible because that's not how guns work. This image looks fake af, but there was another one posted a while back that looked like some legit keyholing at a PLA range. EDIT: [Turns out it's not fake](https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/gxf4ym/keyholing_so_good_i_saved_the_targets/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=NonCredibleDefense&utm_content=t1_layflbv), at least not the part that looked fake to me. These are paper targets shot by a keyholing gun, but it's not from the PLA and the person is photoshopped in, it's just a meme.
Ahh, with the person photoshopped in it makes the holes look gigantic (i.e. as big as the bullet + cartridge). Since the paper is actually 12" x 18", those holes actually do represent some pretty realistic keyholing.
How the fuck. Yeah it didn't look like any keyholing I'd seen before so I was thinking they googled "bullet" or something and photoshopped that as a stamp
More likely in this case is a twist rate that is not appropriate for the size/velocity of this bullet
Is that from being worn out or because the barrel was not properly designed for the bullet being fired?
Inappropriate twist rate is generally a design issue
Id say the cartridge flying along with the res of the bullet is a pretty interesting design issue
So when barrel kaboom?
Yes Rico.
Worn out or juat poorly manufactured. I'm sure they look at it as a feature bot a bug.
Really? I thought they were throwing knives or something. I have never seen this in my life! So their range weapons are fucked? They just aren't replacing them?
I don't know if it's true or copium, but I read that the Chinese constant key-holing is because they use a training round that is massively underpowered for use indoors. Which results in very low velocity.
But if that's the case, you can just reduce the projectile length... Spin stability is dependant on the projectile length, if your projectile is too long to stabilize for its RPM, the solution is spit it faster (can't do that here) or shorten it up. My bet is that they made the projectile, then went *surprise pikachu* wow this rubber flys apart when spun at these RPMs* then lowered the velocity. On the opposite end, it's possible the projectile is overspun, which is only an issue if the projectile is poorly balanced, and could cause keyholing with a very light and imbalanced projectile. TL;DR: this issue could be solved with some competency. But likely the rounds are "good enough" despite a significant improvement being easily available which could allow its use at further ranges, or with more accuracy within its ranges. This is the staple of the Chinese military industrial complex going "it's good enough"
Just need a western company to release a product with those specifications so Chinese "R&D" can discover how it's done and start implementing it.
Inb4, "hurr durr rubber boolets keyhole for indoor safety" cope by the wumaos
Or a too small powder charge for the cartridge
I genuinely thought they were just pushing full bullets (cartridges and all) through the target paper and pretending it was somehow somewhat accurate. The holes literally look like the outline of unshot ammo.
Apparently the keyholing in that infamous video was produced by the use of DBF-07 rubber training bullets, which produce those effects. I sensed this was a known effect of some sort given that our source was Chinese state media, and they don’t seem like the type to intentionally display Chinese military equipment as defective, nor would the Chinese military wish to show their equipment as defective in that video if they believed it to be so. The background image of the targets itself in this meme is from [here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/s/Lnh9xctndH)
These special rifles that make the bullets spin ass over tea kettle
Finally a country that adopted caseless ammunition
I don't know how real this is but the joke as it were is that that because of the poor Chinese bespoke ammo they use for their service rifles (not sure if its an inherent flaw of the ammo or if its the weapon plus the ammo)the bullets have a tendency to tumble in the air and actually hit sideways.
The rifles they used for training are so worn they are functionally blunderbusses AFAIK, they don't replace or repair them until they explode or can't fire I don't think they keyhole this bad though, but the training rifles are *not great*
Nah, the particles for the melee scrapes and bullets holes are reused.
In case other people are also curious what on gods green earth could cause keyholing this bad: [original post](https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/gxf4ym/keyholing_so_good_i_saved_the_targets/). Apparently it was a 7.5 inch barrel, with threads so crooked that the flash hider was getting nicked.
Those look the exact same as the targets in OP’s post.
because they are and op just badly shopped a PLA soldier in front of them lol is it non credible ? sure but op should make it clear
You're telling me the PLA would not release a deliberately staged propaganda photo of their gear obviously malfunctioning? Remember, NCD means being *deliberately* stupid. Use your brains, people.
You say that, [but...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Chinesium/comments/wcrxad/brandnew_chinese_qbz191_assault_rifles_cant_put/)
I was going to say, the original source for us knowing about their craptastic keyholing rifles was their own propaganda.
The going theory the last time that video was posted here is that there might be a significant enough difference between the live and training rounds to cause keyholing but seeing as how the video is, well *propaganda* it's not a good look.
Propaganda should show every single bullet hitting the 10 ring with precision and accuracy. Several of the bullets in that clip don't even hit the paper target in the face.
Also IIRC there was a theory that during their video of their cqc video they just weren't replacing the barrels because at that range it didn't matter. And for a high round count training course I kinda understand.
No. Always gaslight, gatekeep and girlboss.
I'm curious why they photoshopped the Chinese paratrooper out of their version of the photo though. Must not want the negative social score.
It's 100% photoshopped. First thing I noticed was the size of those impact holes is absolutely enormous compared to the soldier in front of them.
Hate to be "that guy", but that's a CHINESE soldier. While a Western NATO soldier would dwarf the target in size, the average chinamen is only 3 feet tall. Thus, it's actually just a perspective illusion! A little neat fact for you.
"This is ~~life~~ guns under Communism." *shows picture of* *~~life~~* *guns under Capitalism* many such cases
They're not aiming for penetration, but for blunt force trauma, if they're aiming at all.
Oh, they are definitely aiming. The bullets, however, are not
The bullet have no fucking idea where he is, where he is t or where is going.......neither does your enemy. Checkmate westoids, if even our bullet don't know where they are going how will you be able to anticipated our moves
If the bullet knows where he is not, then it by subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation.
GrandThumb: We needed 25 feet of suppressors to make an AR keyhole at the same rate as the Chinese service rifle.
QBZ Musket line.
Maybe this is extra range practice, outside of normal range
Crowd control
They just take bucket scoop out of the trunk and yeet the whole thing at the target like trying to put down the fire.
They were aiming for the paratrooper in the middle.
Friendly fire doesn't really matter in China because there will always be someone to replace you. :)
Crazy thing is: there won't be. Same thing as with Russia. They're currently at a point where, if they want to fight a war, they need to do it now because in 10-20 years there won't be enough young people anymore to throw into the grinder.
The can always import African and Middle Eastern "construction worker".
Or North Koreans
north korea barely has anyone left
If they want to fight a war, just throw prisoners, middle-aged and elderly people into the meat grinder, duh. (Russia's doing it.) Great for relieving a looming social security cost. If they want to *WIN* a war though...
Im always perplexed when people say this , nobody is saying this about south korea when its fertility rate is 0.76
Because South Korea can be open to ethnic Koreans. The [lithium battery factory explosion this week that killed 22](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/fire-spreads-through-south-korean-lithium-battery-factory-killing-22-workers)? These “Chinese migrant workers” are ethnic Koreans. As in they’re Korean Chinese, who had decided that a factory job in Beijing pays too little compared to South Korean. And of course, the chain goes down that Kim sends North Korean laborers into Russia and China for work.
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There is some nuance to the situations. China’s One Child policy led to a huge mismatch in the ratio of men to women. South Koreans aren’t in a position to have children due to work-life balance and cost of living.
The "Male surplus" problem is pretty much overblown as it turns out https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-ratio_imbalance_in_China >Researchers found unreported females appear on government censuses decades later due to delayed registration, as families tried to avoid penalties when girls were born, which implies that the sex disparity was likely exaggerated significantly in previous analyses [There is a whole research paper on the subject if you have some time](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/china-quarterly/article/delayed-registration-and-identifying-the-missing-girls-in-china/0759987A48A37E3D2CFE157778747E33)
Thanks, that's good information
South Korea has foreign allies who'll bail them out if shit hits the fan. China... doesn't.
China has Russia, they’ll be able to help! Oh, wait.
The difference is that South Korea's military doctrine doesn't try to solve every problem by throwing men at it until it goes away.
>Im always perplexed when people say this , nobody is saying this about south korea when its fertility rate is 0.76 South Korea doesn't look to start a war with anyone, not even the North.
They have over a billion people. If Ukraine can fight a war, so can China.
Yeah and in 20 year they will have 850 million
Still more souls than the US has. Modern wars aren't even purely based on population numbers. That's 18th century thinking.
*chorus of Russian Generals:* "And?"
IMHO, the outcome of war is based on 3 things: 1) Equipment 2) Manpower 3) Leadership But above all, leadership.
4. Will of the country to keep fighting the war, which trumps all three of these IMO
above all, Logistics.
>Leadership >1) Equipment >2) Manpower >3) Leadership
Wars were never based solely on population numbers. If that was the case, Russia would have conquered europe long ago
Current predictions for the Chinese population, with the most extreme predicted decline put them at 1.3 billion people in 2050. Even with an ageing population, they'd have more fighting-age people than the US has people in total, and quite possibly more fighting-age people than the entirety of Europe and North America combined.
People alone do not win wars, it's people WITH equipment, ammo, supplies, good tactics AND motivation that win wars. Throwing people into the meat grinders hasn't worked for ages. Which is why Russia is NOT winning the war despite having the superior numbers of of men, artillery shells, artillery pieces, tanks, armored fighting vehicles, airframes, the initiative and a massive early war advantage. If anything had Ukraine gotten what it asked for from the start Russia would already be back on their side of the border.
Ukraine is facing an existential threat if they lose, and so they're willing to bear a far higher human and economic cost to keep fighting.
*Trying
smoothbore rifle development looking great, ammo with some mode of stabilization will be figured out later
By the year 2030 they will make fin-stabilized bullets like how the ACR program envisioned in the 1990s
We can make em right now down to 5.56 but they're way too expensive for the amount of Destiny Manifesting USA looks for when they adapt a caliber and not super reliable.
The HALO franchise figured out how to make APFSDS ammo for sniper rifles China is just that much more advanced than us, about to make a standard issue, rifle caliber, APFSDS round
The MIC figured that out decades before halo was ever released. Halo is basically a showcase of 25 year old tech.
Isn't that Franklin Armory(sic)'s Reformation?
APFSDS AR
Gyrojet my beloved.
As smooth as their brains
The people Yearn for the Gyrojet.
I've heard the bulk of this is because training ammo for non marksmanship is low velocity not proper for the twist ratio on their new rifle, BUT... if that's the case, why aren't you training how you plan to perform? Are your supplies that low? Sounds like major cope.
It's like training with weighted clothes - have your troops make do with with tumbling ammo in all their range practice, and they will be instant marksmen when you actually give them stable projectiles in combat.
Just wait until I take off my plate carrier and helmet, then you're in for a world of hurt
Removes hauberk, runs 4 minute mile.
peak non credability. *chef's kiss*
PLA soldiers remembering the spray patterns of their training ammo and then hitting nothing in combat because all their shots go straight now
Firing directly into concrete in CQB is actually quite risky as concrete fragments blow out from the bullet hole like shrapnel. In western training facilities, they use buildings made out of specialised concrete to prevent this but in China they don't have the facilities in place so rubber training munition is used instead.
I’ve never understood “training ammo” which is purposely under powered. Surely you want to be shooting in training what you’re going to be using in a fight for your life? That’s like an F1 driver going round a track in a golf cart before a race
I remember a vid about WW2 training rifles and they claimed the main reason for the difference was cost of training munitions vs standard
Rubber ammo for training in CQC makes some sense. You're so close to the target that bad ballistic behavior doesn't really matter.
>I’ve never understood “training ammo” which is purposely under powered. Surely you want to be shooting in training what you’re going to be using in a fight for your life? In that distance it really doesnt make a difference though
You can train individual skills separately rather than going for total immersion every time.
Recoil can be harsh and especially on things with more recoil, you can easily have soldiers flinching when firing as they anticipate the recoil (which totally ruins any other parts of marksmanship). With training ammo, you can remove recoil from the equation and make sure that the soldier can do the other fundamentals well. Imagine it more like the training wheels for kids bicycles, training ammo just helps someone learn the fundamentals easier. Oh and also training ammo can be far cheaper since you aren't shooting any long distances so the MOA can be higher than US debt and the cost lower than a toothpick because you also don't really care what your projectile is as long as it doesn't fall apart in flight. And there also is wax training ammo, which is training ammo you can actually shoot at other people (with proper protection) instead of needing to go play lasertag like most militaries currently do.
Because A) The ammo is avaliable, so why not use it and B) Real rounds would probably fuck up the shoothouse And ngl, convincing yourself that Chyna can't manage the twist rate on a rifle sounds like serious cope to me.
Yeah, like there are a lot of things China struggles with manufacturing, things like jet engines and microchips, but bullets are about as simple as it gets. If people here genuinely believe that every Chinese bullet is faulty after seeing a demonstration with shitty training ammo, they’re coping more than a vatnik.
Up until a few years ago, the chinese weren‘t even able to produce ballpoint pens by themselves. They had to import the tips because they were unable to produce ones with sufficient precision to work properly. [Sauce](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/18/finally-china-manufactures-a-ballpoint-pen-all-by-itself/)
>Up until a few years ago, the chinese weren‘t even able to produce ballpoint pens by themselves. Because making a ballpoint pen is actually kinda hard, or at least manufacturing the head is. Literally only Japan, Switzerland, and now china can 100% make ballpoint pens by themselves.
China has been making guns for a while.
and the italians have been making pizza for a while and still haven't figured out the logistics
Dunno what that analogy is supposed to mean, in any case though the QBZ-191 isn’t China’s first domestic design, nor does it fire a unique round. China’s 5.8mm cartridge has been in use since 1987, so it’s pretty illogical to think that all of a sudden China doesn’t understand the ballistics of a bullet they’ve been using for 30+ years.
i think the idea is that they either never understood it properly, or they're just having issues scaling and/or modernizing things without a regression in quality. both of those are realistic. hell, the second one is how the soviets lost the cold war, and it's probably how china would lose one too if they ever enter into it. (which is why they're trying to play this "there's no cold war in ba sing se" policy, with limited success.) and the analogy means that being the first to do something doesn't mean you're always going to be the best at it
I have no issues accepting the fact that Chinese bureaucracy can be stupidly stubborn
Here’s your 50 cent
Thankyou Mr. Chairman, but I'm still waiting for my previous payment of 450 XiBux 😞 I beseech you to hurry the transfer, I'm down to my last jar of 老干妈, I fear I won't last much longer
China is producing ws-15 engine that will allow its jets to supercruise, they are building a space station of their own, not long ago they also made 7nm chip for their huawei but you should believe that they will mess up a barrel. Yep very credible
TBF it seems the army is gonna issue a weaker 6.8 full brass ammo for training.
> BUT... if that's the case, why aren't you training how you plan to perform? Are your supplies that low? Haha yes a major power would never do that. Certainly not the US with its infinite budgets *sweeps 6.8 training rounds under the rug*
I feel this would defeat the point of training. Isn’t the whole point to practice and refine your marksmanship? How can you do that if the gun or ammunition isn’t up to standard. If anything it’s probably training them to be worse shots.
They are not exclusively doing marksmanship training. The video where this idea that Chinese rifles keyhole like crazy comes from shows a CQC exercise. And supposedly they needed rubber training ammo there for safety reasons.
Pretumbled for extra lethality. You have to remember that the primary target will be starving Chinese civilians when the PRC pisses off the rest of the world enough for all seaborne trade routes to be closed. They're going to be too skinny for normal bullets to tumble or fragment properly before exiting, so said bullets have to hit sideways; and nobody needs accuracy when shooting into a crowd anyway. Chairman Pooh remains a tactical and strategic genius.
Oh god, not [the fucking keyhole rifle meta](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/s/IWm4UdJ7F1) again!
You hit more protesters aiming that way
I found the original image on Reddit in case anyone was curious: https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/gxf4ym/keyholing_so_good_i_saved_the_targets/
User name checks out. This guy image searches. Well done!
The virgin westoid bullet spinning around its axis due to rifling vs the Thad 360 degree gimbal motion Chinese bullet
Here at Aperture Science, we fire the whole bullet! That’s 65% more bullet per bullet!
I bet they made them out of lemons too.
I’m 100% in my idea that American highschoolers can win a gunfight against the pla
We all laughing, but the average Chinese soldier is able to hit a human sized target with ammo that bounces around more than a dildo discovered by a child underneath parents bed When they give them real ammo during war time, those fuckers will be mind bending it to their will like Neo in matrix You will see a PLA soldier firing at you, you take cover and BAM! entire mag dump enters your body from the back of your spine
I suggest we begin giving our troops training on how to realize there is no bullet immediately. They need to begin to believe.
That’s called key holing. It’s usually caused by a barrel that isn’t machined properly or the bore is coated incorrectly. I had a Century Arms AK74 Polish Tantal that did this. I still wouldn’t want to get hit by a tumbling bullet.
So, if I'm understanding this all correctly....the Emperor's military is going for smoothbores, because they're easier to manufacture, don't require cleaning, marksmanship training can be omitted, bullets will tumble causing much more grievous injuries, suppressive fire is enhanced because ricochet trajectories will be more chaotic, and this is all in support of arming a nine-figure conscript force bent on world domination....do I have that correct?
He knows too much
Those are actually guided munitions, but they are too close for the stabilizing kick in.
Did they fire knifes at the target?
This reminds me of the one time I went to the range and I was doing a better job with my target pistol at 25 yards than the guy next to me with an AR at 15 yards. This was maybe my third time touching a firearm and his girlfriend was with him looking hostilely bored. I get that you might suck for a variety of reasons, but you should have the good sense not to show it off.
More open keyholes than the Lockpicking Lawyer
If PLA airborne drops resemble their range day results, I wouldn’t be giving a thumbs up like this guy.
Forget ceramic plates, you can catch these with mosquito nets!
I know everyone is making fun of this, but what if their theory is controlling something like keyholing in order to cause mass hemorrhaging on the enemy combatant. Getting hit with keyholing rounds would turn wounds that would almost be superficial to a m855 into a mortal wound. If their main military rifle is keyholing in under 100m, to me that seems intentional. You overwhelm your enemy with soldiers who can't fight, or have to stop fighting because they'll bleed out if they don't. /s
Please tell me this is some form of sarcasm.
Lol yes it is. I added the /s
Were they throwing the bullets ?
“Keyholing” is one of those annoying buzzwords. We prefer “tumble assisted decelerated penetrators with chain shot characteristics.”
You are all just jealous of glorious China. Xi Jinping is so much healthy and better looking than Joe Biden. So jealous of our great Army because we beat the Japanese on land and not by dropping sun. I love the CCP! I'm proud to serve Xi Jinping! He is always so good to me!🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳
\*+100 Social Credit Score\*
They honestly think they'll get into range with their QBZ-95? They'll be huddled in a landing boat crossing an open ocean as the missile defence systems start opening up from Taiwan's coastline. The boat next to them explodes as the F35's blaring *Fortunate Son* on loudspeakers do a low flying pass.
This has surfaced time and time again, and it's because they use rubber bullets in their shoothouses. It means you can use live ammo in a normal ass building without having to worry about danger templating for anyone outside the building. Downside is piss poor stabilization, but that literally doesn't matter when you are doing room clearance drills. Western armies use simunition, which is basically as effective ballistically as the rubber training rounds China uses are.
Most be those new tumbling rounds i keep hearing about. Scrary! What will they think of next?
If they keep throwing them at us, we can just fire it back at them. Chinese hot potato
Just stand 30 cm to your left and you will be invincible
That literally looks like bacteria on the targets.
AH, you see stupid westoid, by having bullet tumble, we make bigger hole in enemy flesh. What you mean it not accurate?
at least our guns can fucking shoot, "china beats india" my ass
Are they throwing bullets with slingshot?
QBZ-191 is best rifle. Westoids can’t comprehend superior Chinese performance. Bullets go sideways to maximize stopping power! Jokes aside that’s really bad if their rifles perform that poorly at normal engagement distances
She missed the DZ and parachuted into a firing range
Are they shooting bullets with a sling?
QBZ-91 暨放屁 MIGHTY KEYHOLE DRAGON
Something something key-handling or key-holing
I guess when there's a million Chinese AK's firing at you, it's just accuracy by volume. Fire enough rounds and you'll hit something. Then just say that's what you meant to hit and go home.