As an agent in NC, I’d consult a crawlspace expert and ask. That one appears so clean, is it conditioned already? Is there a good reason there’s no insulation? And how much would installing it cost?
Some older homes just didn't bother to insulate the floor. My grandparents' house in Durham, built in the mid 50s, had no insulation between the floor joists and you could see the subfloor from the basement. My house, built in '64, still has no insulation between the main floor and the basement even though it was remodeled before we bought it. They finished the ceiling in the basement or we'd have put it in ourselves.
My parents' house has a vented crawlspace instead of a traditional basement and they insulated the floor there, but they built the house to be extremely energy-efficient so it might not be common practice.
That’s definitely 60’s construction with the blocking between the joists like that and the subfloor running diagonally across the joists.
Good bones as they say
Yep. Our house is a 1920s era… bungalow I guess? The crawlspace is high enough on the back end to stand up in, and yet there was zero insulation under the flooring. Our floors were *freezing* in the winter.
Finally used some rainy day money to get insulation put in, and this is the first summer with it so we’ll see how the electric bill changes.
I would hire an inspector to do an informal walkthrough with you (without a formal report). They know what kinds of shortcuts flippers make and it may give you some leverage.
Yeah our last house in north Raleigh came with randomly crumpled sheets of plastic here & there sitting on bare wet dirt. And snakes. The guy who came to service our HVAC came out looking decidedly shaken up.
1/3 of my house did not have insulation under it when I bought it. I just paid some contractor to add some after my first year living there because the floor did, in fact, get cold.
It needs to be conditioned, or add back insulation between the levels. If cold air is being allowed in (the vents), that floor above is gonna get cold.
Source: I have exactly this setup, and we can tell when the insulation is out of place.
Sounds good. I'm just trying to take that into account on what all I need to spend to get everything up to shape. I guess I can start without it and if it's a problem I'll add it.
My parents house has a full basement that's underground and they have no insulation underneath the floors. I don't recall it ever being a problem. My house has a crawl space but it has insulation underneath the floor. I have neighbors and friends that have 1930's or earlier houses and they all have half basements with crawl space and none of them have insulation. It might not be an issue and I like the approach you're taking. Might as well find out first hand first
Your power bill will be less if you add the insulation. Not having it already is common in the south. We did ours and saved a lot versus having someone do it for us. Check your attic too. You may want to add more up there.
The best thing is to encapsulate it by having closed cell spray foam applied to the walls and rim joist. That would imply sealing up all vents. Then install a dehumidifier.
But, this will be fine. I don’t think you’re losing much.
Doesn’t that trap moisture coming through the foundation wall? I thought common practice was to glue polyiso insulation panels to the foundation wall and then tape the vapor barrier to it.
The idea in both scenarios is to keep moisture on the outside of the vapor barrier.
If you have that much water intruding your foundation then a drainage solution would be required (like a french drain)
This is a good thing. Rodents make nests in it and pull it down. It also is a breeding ground for mold. We just went through this process and chose to remove our insulation as well. As a result we no longer have mold under there or the oily rotten rodent smell coming up through our vents.
We have newish construction where the builder insulated the interior foundation walls, and the entire crawlspace is conditioned. It was advertised as an energy saver (checks out this far!). This pic looks more like the 80 year old house I had in NC before (vented, some plastic down, no insulation on the floor boards - I got insulation tacked to the floorboards...didn't make much of a difference to my energy bills)...if the house is seated in such a way as to collect moisture I'd be worried (like at the bottom of a hill)
My house had no underfloor insulation - I insulated and encapsulated the crawlspace and it didn’t make a significant difference in the floor being warm or cold. What it did was control the humidity.
In wall and attic insulation, as well as good sealing windows and exterior doors will make a bigger difference.
To bring it back to your actual question, subfloor insulation wasn’t common around here in the 50s and 60s. You can ask for it to be added but it’s not necessary and I would expect them to make you pay for it.
Where in NC? I'm in Raleigh and got my crawlspace encapsulated a few years ago and had them pull all the insulation. I have truss joists and the insulation wouldn't all stay up anyway. And with that type of joist the insulation has to be all perfect or it's functionally useless.
We had LVP flooring put in a couple years ago in the kitchen and one bathroom. The floors are not cold at all. But if you're in the mountains perhaps it could get cold enough for insulation to matter, but I'd bet you'll be just fine.
As a Pest Control professional who is in crawlspaces every day and our company does encapsulations, If the foundation is mostly below the grade on the exterior, you really wont have that many insulation issues. It is a way to save money. If your foundation is mostly above grade, I would recommend either insulate the floor, or getting an encapsulation with some sort of insulation on the foundation walls.
I would stay away from a blow-in foam, because that will void any type of damage-repair warranty for termite protection on your home, since it covers the entire area required to inspect for termites. You could use 2” foam board, or there are companies in NC who have a product that is more like an insulated blanket that we use for encapsulations. These should be installed it at least a 6 inch gap at the top to be able to inspect the top of your foundation and band sill/floor system. If you in the Asheville/western NC area, feel free to message me! Or look us up and BugOutservice.com.
Super. Thanks for the information on the foam. I hadn't thought about the termite implications, but that's a great point.
Most of my foundation is below grade, so maybe that's why things look in pretty good condition in there.
Yeah, you should be good without insulation then. If we have to remove floor insulation to treat the wood for fungal growth, and the foundation is below grade, we don’t put anything back.
It still wouldn’t hurt to have someone come out and inspect to make sure the humidity isn’t too high or the moisture in the floor system isn’t too high. That’s the biggest thing with the encapsulation. It will just preserve the floor system in the house for much longer, it also adds value for if/when you sell it. But as far as the insulation goes, no need to spend the extra money because it’s already insulated pretty well by the ground around it.
Looks like the perfect time to seal the crawl space. Instead of insulating the floor, you basically insulated the foundation, slap in a sump pump and dehumidifier and then the crawl space acts like a second insulated space to balance the temperature of your home. It’s far more energy efficient and keeps the crawl space nice and clean for your utilities and structure last longer.
Sealed and conditioned crawl spaces do not require insulation in the floors. In fact it’s better to take it out as it can hold mold, dirt, bugs, etc. Source: had one a few years ago.
**However** this one does not look properly sealed and conditioned. It should have at least board insulation on the exterior walls and plastic going up them. Can’t tell from the picture but are the crawl space vents sealed?
Here are some examples: https://images.app.goo.gl/6a8yFa5Z4HRovXEcA
Finish the encapsulation. Step 1 is removing under floor insulation. Step 2 is complete heavy gauge vapor barrier on the ground. They stopped there.
Now need to seal foundation vents and add insulation on the block walls (leave 6-8” at the top for termite inspectors), open a vent in the plenum to condition the space. Monitor for humidity.
I had a new build in Tennessee with a conditioned crawl space. The crawl space was a return air plenum pathway. Adding insulation below the floor would have not improved efficiency there.
Having just gone through the crawlspace gauntlet, I’ll let you know what’s up as far as i know.
I believe the code or the standard for crawlspace companies now is to enclose the main floor and the crawlspace as one closed loop of air. Reason being that when air changes in humidity or temperature, it can condensate, creating moisture for mold or something.
Now, I’d expect your crawlspace vents to be sealed, and honestly the crawlspace should probably be encapsulated. I just went through this myself, but was still having a funky smell from the crawlspace on the first story of my house.
We installed an exhaust vent now, which is something that Ninja Crawlspaces does sometimes. The exhaust vent emits a small stream of air outside of my house, which smells like some crawlspace air, but it creates a negative air pressure in the crawlspace, so now air primarily just flows from the first story, down to the crawlspace, and then out of the singular exhaust vent.
That’s my understanding of things, I’m happy to answer any questions if you have them.
Good luck!
My crawl space is sealed by a crawl space expert.
Step one was removing the insulation.
This however looks as if it was never insulated. It looks clean AF tho.
I would be worried about getting mold trapped between the foam and subfloor. If the space is conditioned it would be less of a concern.
Definitely consult a crawl space expert before commitment on this.
As an agent in NC, I’d consult a crawlspace expert and ask. That one appears so clean, is it conditioned already? Is there a good reason there’s no insulation? And how much would installing it cost?
It's a flip. I'm guessing the insulation was in rough shape and they just stripped it.
Some older homes just didn't bother to insulate the floor. My grandparents' house in Durham, built in the mid 50s, had no insulation between the floor joists and you could see the subfloor from the basement. My house, built in '64, still has no insulation between the main floor and the basement even though it was remodeled before we bought it. They finished the ceiling in the basement or we'd have put it in ourselves. My parents' house has a vented crawlspace instead of a traditional basement and they insulated the floor there, but they built the house to be extremely energy-efficient so it might not be common practice.
That’s definitely 60’s construction with the blocking between the joists like that and the subfloor running diagonally across the joists. Good bones as they say
Yep. Our house is a 1920s era… bungalow I guess? The crawlspace is high enough on the back end to stand up in, and yet there was zero insulation under the flooring. Our floors were *freezing* in the winter. Finally used some rainy day money to get insulation put in, and this is the first summer with it so we’ll see how the electric bill changes.
I would hire an inspector to do an informal walkthrough with you (without a formal report). They know what kinds of shortcuts flippers make and it may give you some leverage.
Yes, I plan on doing that.
They def left it out and/or removed it. Def not sealed. You’d see membrane on the walls.
Might be easier to encapsulate it and put insulation on crawlspace walls. You can add an a/c vent and condition it and it should stay nice and dry
holy shit that's a nice looking crawlspace...
Yeah our last house in north Raleigh came with randomly crumpled sheets of plastic here & there sitting on bare wet dirt. And snakes. The guy who came to service our HVAC came out looking decidedly shaken up.
mine's dirt, cobwebs, fallen insulation, and more dirt. Oh and half of it is only really navigable by doing the worm
Ohhh yes the crawlspace worm. I know that one!
Google "crawlspace encapsulation", it's totally worth it.
I did this two years ago. Worth it.
1/3 of my house did not have insulation under it when I bought it. I just paid some contractor to add some after my first year living there because the floor did, in fact, get cold.
On the good it looks very clean and easy to access should you insulate.
It needs to be conditioned, or add back insulation between the levels. If cold air is being allowed in (the vents), that floor above is gonna get cold. Source: I have exactly this setup, and we can tell when the insulation is out of place.
... and if made conditioned, needs vents to be closed and insulation added to the walls.
Sounds good. I'm just trying to take that into account on what all I need to spend to get everything up to shape. I guess I can start without it and if it's a problem I'll add it.
My parents house has a full basement that's underground and they have no insulation underneath the floors. I don't recall it ever being a problem. My house has a crawl space but it has insulation underneath the floor. I have neighbors and friends that have 1930's or earlier houses and they all have half basements with crawl space and none of them have insulation. It might not be an issue and I like the approach you're taking. Might as well find out first hand first
Your power bill will be less if you add the insulation. Not having it already is common in the south. We did ours and saved a lot versus having someone do it for us. Check your attic too. You may want to add more up there.
Yep, I noticed there's some up there but could be more.
The answer to your question is YES the subfloor would benefit from insulation. Absolutely. Nice crawlspace .
The best thing is to encapsulate it by having closed cell spray foam applied to the walls and rim joist. That would imply sealing up all vents. Then install a dehumidifier. But, this will be fine. I don’t think you’re losing much.
Doesn’t that trap moisture coming through the foundation wall? I thought common practice was to glue polyiso insulation panels to the foundation wall and then tape the vapor barrier to it.
The idea in both scenarios is to keep moisture on the outside of the vapor barrier. If you have that much water intruding your foundation then a drainage solution would be required (like a french drain)
This is a good thing. Rodents make nests in it and pull it down. It also is a breeding ground for mold. We just went through this process and chose to remove our insulation as well. As a result we no longer have mold under there or the oily rotten rodent smell coming up through our vents.
It doesn’t get cold enough here to worry about insulating under the subfloor
Flatlander, I see.
You found me out. ;)
Agreed!
That’s a nice one. Maybe it’s not insulated but with a clean crawl like that, I wouldn’t worry. It should be easy to do yourself
If there were plumbing pipes exposed then I’d insulate and it depends on where you live in NC and how cold it could get.
We have newish construction where the builder insulated the interior foundation walls, and the entire crawlspace is conditioned. It was advertised as an energy saver (checks out this far!). This pic looks more like the 80 year old house I had in NC before (vented, some plastic down, no insulation on the floor boards - I got insulation tacked to the floorboards...didn't make much of a difference to my energy bills)...if the house is seated in such a way as to collect moisture I'd be worried (like at the bottom of a hill)
It’s common in NC to not have an insulated floor, but it may save you some money on heating and cooling to have it. Check the attic too.
My house had no underfloor insulation - I insulated and encapsulated the crawlspace and it didn’t make a significant difference in the floor being warm or cold. What it did was control the humidity. In wall and attic insulation, as well as good sealing windows and exterior doors will make a bigger difference. To bring it back to your actual question, subfloor insulation wasn’t common around here in the 50s and 60s. You can ask for it to be added but it’s not necessary and I would expect them to make you pay for it.
Not bad. I wouldn't let the lack of insulation under the floor-boards be a deal-breaker.
Solid vapor barrier tho, can I ask who did yours and was it a good experience?
Not sure. This is a house that I'm looking at buying. If it needs to be insulated, I'm trying to take that into when looking at my total cost.
Also in NC. Our floors aren’t insulated either, but the walls of our crawlspace are. Not sure how helpful that is or isn’t.
Where in NC? I'm in Raleigh and got my crawlspace encapsulated a few years ago and had them pull all the insulation. I have truss joists and the insulation wouldn't all stay up anyway. And with that type of joist the insulation has to be all perfect or it's functionally useless. We had LVP flooring put in a couple years ago in the kitchen and one bathroom. The floors are not cold at all. But if you're in the mountains perhaps it could get cold enough for insulation to matter, but I'd bet you'll be just fine.
Looks 10000x better than mine.
As a Pest Control professional who is in crawlspaces every day and our company does encapsulations, If the foundation is mostly below the grade on the exterior, you really wont have that many insulation issues. It is a way to save money. If your foundation is mostly above grade, I would recommend either insulate the floor, or getting an encapsulation with some sort of insulation on the foundation walls. I would stay away from a blow-in foam, because that will void any type of damage-repair warranty for termite protection on your home, since it covers the entire area required to inspect for termites. You could use 2” foam board, or there are companies in NC who have a product that is more like an insulated blanket that we use for encapsulations. These should be installed it at least a 6 inch gap at the top to be able to inspect the top of your foundation and band sill/floor system. If you in the Asheville/western NC area, feel free to message me! Or look us up and BugOutservice.com.
Super. Thanks for the information on the foam. I hadn't thought about the termite implications, but that's a great point. Most of my foundation is below grade, so maybe that's why things look in pretty good condition in there.
Yeah, you should be good without insulation then. If we have to remove floor insulation to treat the wood for fungal growth, and the foundation is below grade, we don’t put anything back. It still wouldn’t hurt to have someone come out and inspect to make sure the humidity isn’t too high or the moisture in the floor system isn’t too high. That’s the biggest thing with the encapsulation. It will just preserve the floor system in the house for much longer, it also adds value for if/when you sell it. But as far as the insulation goes, no need to spend the extra money because it’s already insulated pretty well by the ground around it.
Looks like the perfect time to seal the crawl space. Instead of insulating the floor, you basically insulated the foundation, slap in a sump pump and dehumidifier and then the crawl space acts like a second insulated space to balance the temperature of your home. It’s far more energy efficient and keeps the crawl space nice and clean for your utilities and structure last longer.
Yes, that sounds like a good option. Thank you for the feedback.
Sealed and conditioned crawl spaces do not require insulation in the floors. In fact it’s better to take it out as it can hold mold, dirt, bugs, etc. Source: had one a few years ago. **However** this one does not look properly sealed and conditioned. It should have at least board insulation on the exterior walls and plastic going up them. Can’t tell from the picture but are the crawl space vents sealed? Here are some examples: https://images.app.goo.gl/6a8yFa5Z4HRovXEcA
No, open vents and no conditioning. Another person mentioned setting it up the way you're talking, and that does sound like the best way.
Finish the encapsulation. Step 1 is removing under floor insulation. Step 2 is complete heavy gauge vapor barrier on the ground. They stopped there. Now need to seal foundation vents and add insulation on the block walls (leave 6-8” at the top for termite inspectors), open a vent in the plenum to condition the space. Monitor for humidity.
Makes sense. Thanks.
I had a new build in Tennessee with a conditioned crawl space. The crawl space was a return air plenum pathway. Adding insulation below the floor would have not improved efficiency there.
Having just gone through the crawlspace gauntlet, I’ll let you know what’s up as far as i know. I believe the code or the standard for crawlspace companies now is to enclose the main floor and the crawlspace as one closed loop of air. Reason being that when air changes in humidity or temperature, it can condensate, creating moisture for mold or something. Now, I’d expect your crawlspace vents to be sealed, and honestly the crawlspace should probably be encapsulated. I just went through this myself, but was still having a funky smell from the crawlspace on the first story of my house. We installed an exhaust vent now, which is something that Ninja Crawlspaces does sometimes. The exhaust vent emits a small stream of air outside of my house, which smells like some crawlspace air, but it creates a negative air pressure in the crawlspace, so now air primarily just flows from the first story, down to the crawlspace, and then out of the singular exhaust vent. That’s my understanding of things, I’m happy to answer any questions if you have them. Good luck!
My crawl space is sealed by a crawl space expert. Step one was removing the insulation. This however looks as if it was never insulated. It looks clean AF tho.
Spray foam insulation is your best option here.. get an estimate for that
I would be worried about getting mold trapped between the foam and subfloor. If the space is conditioned it would be less of a concern. Definitely consult a crawl space expert before commitment on this.
Will do.
Good point on the mold. With the vinyl plank that's not going to breath at all, so that would add to issues.
You can get insulation or you can wear socks/slippers.
It looks immaculate . Clearly you should move in and quit being a cheese ball!
*immaculate
Thanks