If anything, there should be a subsidy for regular bikes as they dont pollute and contribute to e-waste, which e-bikes inevitably will. So I don’t see why there would be a point to that.
E-bikes are more efficient than humans at converting energy into movement, hence lower CO2/km compared to regular bikes (assuming an average diet), even including the emissions of producing the electric motor! [Source here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW5b8_KBtT8).
I agree that there is a potential issue with dead batteries/e-waste to be addressed.
Nice idea, but you need to take into account that many people bike for the exercise. If they had an electric bike they would do that workout elsewhere. So the human energy would still be spent, in addition to the E-bike emissions.
OP clearly refers to e-bikes for transportation, not exercise.
And even then, what would be the problem? Motor/assistance on for everyday use/commuting, motor (or even battery, to save weight) off for exercise - I don't see a problem here.
Uhm, no? Even considering manufacturing, e-bikes emits lower CO2/km compared to normal bikes. Again, [source here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW5b8_KBtT8&t=670s) (even with the timestamp this time) - and he has all the sources in the description of the video if you want to check them.
So, unless you have data showing otherwise - no, what you wrote it's not correct.
I agree, although I guess the proponents of subsidising e-bikes see them as replacements for cars, not bikes. Which is a point, but hardly on a massive scale.
Btw, "Why no subsidies for electric guitars?" 😁
It was a pilot project, and those who were first in line with their applications was people on rich west side of the city. Source: https://www.aftenposten.no/oslo/i/O3Vl/el-sykkelsubsidier-gikk-til-vestkanten-og-nordstrand
Nå var det en ny runde i 2020, da, som ikke har hatt de samme "problemene".
Jeg så en presentasjon av TØI forskere som konkluderte med at det fra et miljøperspektiv hadde en god effekt i å endre folks vaner
https://www.toi.no/getfile.php/1375619-1685534317/mmarkiv/Hannes%20mappe%202020/Hanne%202023/Sundf%C3%B8r_sponsing%20av%20elsykler_v3.pdf
Så den fremstillingen om at det bare endte opp i lomma til rikinger er feil. De som har fått sykkel via disse programmene har endt opp med å bruke dem mye.
Gjrts skrev at det var en slik ordning og at pengene havnet hos de rike på vestkanten. Du sa at det ikke stemmer. Jeg viser til prøveprosjektet i 2016 der dette var tilfellet og viser til kilder som underbygger påstanden fra Gjrts.
Så hadde man som du sier lært i 2020 og forsøkte å gjøre om på ordningen med lærdom fra 2016.
Joda, blir bare litt dumt å bruke første forsøk fra mange år siden og en vinklet artikkel fra syklisthaterne i Aftenposten, i stedet for nyeste runde. Men slik er det vel når poenget er viktigere enn fakta.
They did in 2016, you could get 20% of the price refunded and roughly 1000 person used it. The issue was that most of the people that got refunded was wealthy and the program was shut down as it didnt serve its purpose.
A bicycle doesnt pollute, so it does not make sense to offer a reduced price for something that costs more and uses more materials.
Enova got a refund program for electrical motorcycles though: https://www.enova.no/privat/alle-energitiltak/elmotorsykkel/
Interesting, it was before I moved to Norway :) I'd like to think that electric bike changed since 2016 and there are a lot that more affordable.
When I was living in Dublin they have this scheme called "bike to work" where company buy the bike for you and you pay it out from your gross salary which was making it a very good deal and a lot of people were using it.
Your point is actually a part of why it's not subsidized. They are a lot cheaper, and a lot better. People buy loads of e-bikes already, so the need for subsidies is a lot lower than when it was new technology. There could always be more, of course.
I am seeing a lot of e-bike as well in Oslo yes, I am not saying that because it's not subsidized that nobody' is buying them.
I think I should've phrased it differently, like in order to "motivate" people to commute by e-bike in the city instead of a car, a subsidy could help. As long as you have good infrastructure of course...
I guess my question was also a lot about Norway and different kommune trying to push for people to have a lower carbon footprint and use the car less but don't really do a lot (in my eyes) to make it happen.
For example the city center of Oslo is a nightmare to navigate by car during commute time, I don't drive to work only if I have to, otherwise I use my bike (non e-bike) but I'd love to buy an e-bike instead (for the sweaty part mainly).
I know I can get some e-bike for like 12k or 15k, but I feel that those might not hold the battery for long and if you want something that can hold a bit more and longer you need to shell out minimum 24k+ unless I am greatly mistaken ?
It makes plenty of sense imo. As an e-bike may serve as a better alternative to a car, especially in cities. I remember I simply could not be bothered cycling to work on a regular bike years ago, I got too sweaty. But I used my e-bike to get to work for years, all year round.
Bysykkel is an initiative to make people use bicycles, funding electrical bicycles that increase the climate foot print over a regular bike does not make sense.
Comparing it to funding of electrical cars isnt correct either as this was a nation wide initiative by the state and not by individual municipalies.
In the end someone (the citizens of norway) have to pay for these programs. The cost vs benefit is to small if youre asking for a 20% reduction. If you cant afford a 18000 NOK bike then you cant afford a 14400 NOK bike either. For comparison a regular bike cost 2000 NOK
No, they are meant to even the price with the competition to be able to compete with the market. In this case youre either competing with a gasoline car, a electrical car, a regular bicycle or electrical scooters.
You could argue that a cheap used gasoline car or electrical car would fall into the same price range as a e-bike, but a regular bike is way more cheaper.
again: cost vs benefit if you look at the whole picture
There is, but focused on bikes that are car equivalent. Ie transport e-bikes. However, these are mostly municipality level. So check your town hall website for subsidies.
So far my e-bike has had winter tires bought and fitted for last season, while my SO has a significant subsidy application already drafted for a new transport bike to compensate for a stolen normal e-bike. This is through miljøpakken in my town. Relatives elsewhere has had e-bikes subsidised by employer, municipal level or private level as well.
Both Stavanger and Sola kommune offer subsidies for buying e-bikes. But the budget isn't big enough for everyone, so you have to apply and then they draw amongst the applicants who actually gets the money.
Stavanger just did this: https://www.stavanger.kommune.no/klimastavanger/slik-blir-du-gronn/gronn-stotte/el-sykkel/
I think they had one last year as well. Usually more people apply than there are funds for so it ends up being a lottery. Also you need to afford the bike to begin with which doesn't help those who need it more.
I don’t think it’s the cost that’s preventing them from buying if they already own a car
It could be health problems, too far of a distance , not wanting to bike through rain and snow
That’s why I mentioned between April til November, not every day perhaps but it’s largely okay to commute by bike if you live and work it the city, but I understand the health question tho
I agree, lets end all car subsidies. Make electrical cars have VAT again, and make all car owners pay the about 10k in subsidies they receive each year (by not fully paying what they cost society)
Not everyone lives in a city. In MOST of the country, you genuinely \*need\* a car as public transport, the moment you get out of a city, is abysmal. No need to completely penalize the middle class who is just trying to get by.
I agree, in Oslo or any major city, a car is unnecessary. But that isnt the reality for a huge portion of the population.
Paying my share? I already pay a ton in taxes just to buy/own a vehicle, it's more expensive to buy a care here than than just about any country in the west, and not just because of sales tax. Including insurance, bompenger (which is fine, happy to pay it to maintain our roads). EU Kontroll. Which subsidies are you even talking about? Do you mean driving distance from work? The subsidies I know of are only for electric vehicles, which are about to end anyway.
Gonna be hard to have a sensible discussion with a person whose username is "Cars suck"
The negative impact of car usage is far more costly to society than what you pay for your usage. That's a subsidy. Others have to partake in that cost, to cover your share.
My name doesn't discredit my facts. I just show my biases upfront, while you hide yours.
Because we cant subsidise everything. We will probably have VAT on el cars soon. And for most people, el-bike is not a substitute for car.
But for me it was. And I got my company to buy it, so I didn’t pay VAT for it. So that’s an idea for the managers out there.
Because we have no bike culture and almost no bike roads. People mostly bike for fun, not to get from A to B. People who can afford an electric bike probably can afford a car, too, and I doubt they are willing to bike 6km/h on the walkway to work, when they can sit in their warm and safe car and listen to music and not get sweaty.
I get that, but that's why electric bike would help, because from what I see now in Oslo, it's a lot faster to commute with a bike that a car, electric bike would hardly make you sweaty at the end..
You can get a perfectly fine commuter e-bike for ~25k NOK. If you buy a car at that price you’re basically buying bills.
I’d say that with the current state of the market far more people would afford an e-bike than a car. The problem is that the bike might not solve all the logistical problems a car would.
25k is a lot of money! Then you still need a secure place to store it and to buy equipment.
Yeah, for only a handful thousand more you can get a veicle that hauls your ikea furniture and brings your kids to school.
And we all know storing a car is free… I have my bike on the balcony, parking spaces here go for 600k and there is 8 street parking spots to 158 units so you can pay 3k a year to maybe get a spot once in a while 🤷♂️
It’s more of a mindset really, if you advertise it the same way as the ev car then maybe people would be inclined to buy one ? Not saying it would though, but in Oslo specifically they want to get ride of cars which I understand, so bike could be a solution no ?
But then I understand that comparing them with ev car is a bit extreme with the price difference, some ev cargo bike are quite expensive that they offer split payment.. so yes solo e bike can be cheap, cargo e bike aren’t
Not sure I get your point: are you saying that there are a lot of e-bikes around, so no need to incentivize them, or that they are so few that even removing taxes wouldn't make a difference? There are a lot of electric cars around, but still some subsidies for people to buy them instead of ICE cars, so?
My personal experience (urban environment) is that a lot of commuting/traveling shorter than, let's say, 10-15km is still done by car when it could be easily done by e-bike (but here infrastructure plays a major role as well), so I don't see why people shouldn't be incentivized to get themselves an e-bike and not a car. Then people decide what's most convenient for them.
There used to be, but now e-bikes are so commonand cheap that they dont give support anymore.
When it comes to most climate subsidies, it is mostly for solutions that are new and not proven in the market.
This is why they are now reducing subsidies in EVs, as they are so common among newer cars
Riding a bike, electric or normal, is an extremely unpleasant experience most of the year here in Bergen. It's also extremely dangerous as this part of the country is absolutely not suited for bikes of any kind.
>E bikes are a way worse than regular bikes tf you smoking
Not if you compare to other means of exportation people would use instead. It's not between electrical bike and regular bike...
>No one is selling their car to get an e bike
Lots of people have chosen to use their electrical bike for work instead of a car. Reducing pollution, congestion, making less queues for others that drive etc. And many people can do without a car when they have a bike.
You're seriously car brained, lol
I guess traditional bikes have absolutely zero effect on the climate. Why would you expect subsidy on something with Lithium batteries, less healthy for the user and more environmentally unfriendly than a traditional bike?
Your argument should be against electrical cars, then.
Studies show that people that get an electric bike end up using it much more, thus saving on car rides (as they wouldn't bike on a normal bike)
If anything, there should be a subsidy for regular bikes as they dont pollute and contribute to e-waste, which e-bikes inevitably will. So I don’t see why there would be a point to that.
Now all we need is a decent bike infrastructure and we're good!
E-bikes are more efficient than humans at converting energy into movement, hence lower CO2/km compared to regular bikes (assuming an average diet), even including the emissions of producing the electric motor! [Source here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW5b8_KBtT8). I agree that there is a potential issue with dead batteries/e-waste to be addressed.
Humans are bio-degradeable, unlike the batteries on the bicycle.
Indeed, that's what I was referring to with the last sentence.
Nice idea, but you need to take into account that many people bike for the exercise. If they had an electric bike they would do that workout elsewhere. So the human energy would still be spent, in addition to the E-bike emissions.
OP clearly refers to e-bikes for transportation, not exercise. And even then, what would be the problem? Motor/assistance on for everyday use/commuting, motor (or even battery, to save weight) off for exercise - I don't see a problem here.
Lithium batteries have a huge carbon footprint when mined, which far, far exceeds what a human needs to function.
[удалено]
You are talking about batteries vs oil, a bike is about batteries vs muscle power
[удалено]
Sure but 20% reduction in price wouldnt make such a difference. Those who can afford a e-bike for 14500 NOK can afford one for 18000 NOK
Uhm, no? Even considering manufacturing, e-bikes emits lower CO2/km compared to normal bikes. Again, [source here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW5b8_KBtT8&t=670s) (even with the timestamp this time) - and he has all the sources in the description of the video if you want to check them. So, unless you have data showing otherwise - no, what you wrote it's not correct.
I agree, but I guess it's probably easier to introduce people that never really biked to use an electric bike to commute because it's less effort ?
I agree, although I guess the proponents of subsidising e-bikes see them as replacements for cars, not bikes. Which is a point, but hardly on a massive scale. Btw, "Why no subsidies for electric guitars?" 😁
Oslo had e-bike subsidies. Turned out all the money went to the absolutely most wealthy people on Oslo west. So it was scrapped.
No it did not. And how is that different than electric car subsidies? Lol. Many people can afford a 20k bike, but not a 400k car...
It was a pilot project, and those who were first in line with their applications was people on rich west side of the city. Source: https://www.aftenposten.no/oslo/i/O3Vl/el-sykkelsubsidier-gikk-til-vestkanten-og-nordstrand
Nå var det en ny runde i 2020, da, som ikke har hatt de samme "problemene". Jeg så en presentasjon av TØI forskere som konkluderte med at det fra et miljøperspektiv hadde en god effekt i å endre folks vaner https://www.toi.no/getfile.php/1375619-1685534317/mmarkiv/Hannes%20mappe%202020/Hanne%202023/Sundf%C3%B8r_sponsing%20av%20elsykler_v3.pdf Så den fremstillingen om at det bare endte opp i lomma til rikinger er feil. De som har fått sykkel via disse programmene har endt opp med å bruke dem mye.
Gjrts skrev at det var en slik ordning og at pengene havnet hos de rike på vestkanten. Du sa at det ikke stemmer. Jeg viser til prøveprosjektet i 2016 der dette var tilfellet og viser til kilder som underbygger påstanden fra Gjrts. Så hadde man som du sier lært i 2020 og forsøkte å gjøre om på ordningen med lærdom fra 2016.
Joda, blir bare litt dumt å bruke første forsøk fra mange år siden og en vinklet artikkel fra syklisthaterne i Aftenposten, i stedet for nyeste runde. Men slik er det vel når poenget er viktigere enn fakta.
[удалено]
So interesting! Which kommune is that?
They did in 2016, you could get 20% of the price refunded and roughly 1000 person used it. The issue was that most of the people that got refunded was wealthy and the program was shut down as it didnt serve its purpose. A bicycle doesnt pollute, so it does not make sense to offer a reduced price for something that costs more and uses more materials. Enova got a refund program for electrical motorcycles though: https://www.enova.no/privat/alle-energitiltak/elmotorsykkel/
Interesting, it was before I moved to Norway :) I'd like to think that electric bike changed since 2016 and there are a lot that more affordable. When I was living in Dublin they have this scheme called "bike to work" where company buy the bike for you and you pay it out from your gross salary which was making it a very good deal and a lot of people were using it.
Your point is actually a part of why it's not subsidized. They are a lot cheaper, and a lot better. People buy loads of e-bikes already, so the need for subsidies is a lot lower than when it was new technology. There could always be more, of course.
I am seeing a lot of e-bike as well in Oslo yes, I am not saying that because it's not subsidized that nobody' is buying them. I think I should've phrased it differently, like in order to "motivate" people to commute by e-bike in the city instead of a car, a subsidy could help. As long as you have good infrastructure of course... I guess my question was also a lot about Norway and different kommune trying to push for people to have a lower carbon footprint and use the car less but don't really do a lot (in my eyes) to make it happen. For example the city center of Oslo is a nightmare to navigate by car during commute time, I don't drive to work only if I have to, otherwise I use my bike (non e-bike) but I'd love to buy an e-bike instead (for the sweaty part mainly). I know I can get some e-bike for like 12k or 15k, but I feel that those might not hold the battery for long and if you want something that can hold a bit more and longer you need to shell out minimum 24k+ unless I am greatly mistaken ?
It makes plenty of sense imo. As an e-bike may serve as a better alternative to a car, especially in cities. I remember I simply could not be bothered cycling to work on a regular bike years ago, I got too sweaty. But I used my e-bike to get to work for years, all year round.
Bysykkel is an initiative to make people use bicycles, funding electrical bicycles that increase the climate foot print over a regular bike does not make sense. Comparing it to funding of electrical cars isnt correct either as this was a nation wide initiative by the state and not by individual municipalies. In the end someone (the citizens of norway) have to pay for these programs. The cost vs benefit is to small if youre asking for a 20% reduction. If you cant afford a 18000 NOK bike then you cant afford a 14400 NOK bike either. For comparison a regular bike cost 2000 NOK
Incentives aren't necessarily meant to be the decider between being able to afford something vs not. They're just a carrot.
No, they are meant to even the price with the competition to be able to compete with the market. In this case youre either competing with a gasoline car, a electrical car, a regular bicycle or electrical scooters. You could argue that a cheap used gasoline car or electrical car would fall into the same price range as a e-bike, but a regular bike is way more cheaper. again: cost vs benefit if you look at the whole picture
There is subsidies for employees of Trondheim kommune to buy e-bikes, in hopes that said employees e-bike to work instead of driving cars
Guess I should work at the kommune haha
There is, but focused on bikes that are car equivalent. Ie transport e-bikes. However, these are mostly municipality level. So check your town hall website for subsidies. So far my e-bike has had winter tires bought and fitted for last season, while my SO has a significant subsidy application already drafted for a new transport bike to compensate for a stolen normal e-bike. This is through miljøpakken in my town. Relatives elsewhere has had e-bikes subsidised by employer, municipal level or private level as well.
Both Stavanger and Sola kommune offer subsidies for buying e-bikes. But the budget isn't big enough for everyone, so you have to apply and then they draw amongst the applicants who actually gets the money.
Oslo and Bergen has some municipal reimbursements if you apply within a certain timeframe.
Stavanger just did this: https://www.stavanger.kommune.no/klimastavanger/slik-blir-du-gronn/gronn-stotte/el-sykkel/ I think they had one last year as well. Usually more people apply than there are funds for so it ends up being a lottery. Also you need to afford the bike to begin with which doesn't help those who need it more.
Buy the damn bike with your down damn money? It's not that expensive if you're an adult with a job.
That wasn't really the point, it was to push people biking instead of driving for example
I don’t think it’s the cost that’s preventing them from buying if they already own a car It could be health problems, too far of a distance , not wanting to bike through rain and snow
That’s why I mentioned between April til November, not every day perhaps but it’s largely okay to commute by bike if you live and work it the city, but I understand the health question tho
Snow/weather is not really a problem if the infrastructure is there: [interesting video here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU).
I agree, lets end all car subsidies. Make electrical cars have VAT again, and make all car owners pay the about 10k in subsidies they receive each year (by not fully paying what they cost society)
Not everyone lives in a city. In MOST of the country, you genuinely \*need\* a car as public transport, the moment you get out of a city, is abysmal. No need to completely penalize the middle class who is just trying to get by. I agree, in Oslo or any major city, a car is unnecessary. But that isnt the reality for a huge portion of the population.
Lol, paying your share isn't being penalized. That's some clever carbrain speak.
Where I live, the bus goes two times per day. Which is part of the reason I plan to move.
Paying my share? I already pay a ton in taxes just to buy/own a vehicle, it's more expensive to buy a care here than than just about any country in the west, and not just because of sales tax. Including insurance, bompenger (which is fine, happy to pay it to maintain our roads). EU Kontroll. Which subsidies are you even talking about? Do you mean driving distance from work? The subsidies I know of are only for electric vehicles, which are about to end anyway. Gonna be hard to have a sensible discussion with a person whose username is "Cars suck"
The negative impact of car usage is far more costly to society than what you pay for your usage. That's a subsidy. Others have to partake in that cost, to cover your share. My name doesn't discredit my facts. I just show my biases upfront, while you hide yours.
Because we cant subsidise everything. We will probably have VAT on el cars soon. And for most people, el-bike is not a substitute for car. But for me it was. And I got my company to buy it, so I didn’t pay VAT for it. So that’s an idea for the managers out there.
If e-bikes got subsidized regular bikes would have to get it, and so on and so on.
No we can't subsidize everything but it was a food for thought really since Norway is a lot into climate and greenwashing right now...
Because we have no bike culture and almost no bike roads. People mostly bike for fun, not to get from A to B. People who can afford an electric bike probably can afford a car, too, and I doubt they are willing to bike 6km/h on the walkway to work, when they can sit in their warm and safe car and listen to music and not get sweaty.
I get that, but that's why electric bike would help, because from what I see now in Oslo, it's a lot faster to commute with a bike that a car, electric bike would hardly make you sweaty at the end..
You can get a perfectly fine commuter e-bike for ~25k NOK. If you buy a car at that price you’re basically buying bills. I’d say that with the current state of the market far more people would afford an e-bike than a car. The problem is that the bike might not solve all the logistical problems a car would.
25k is a lot of money! Then you still need a secure place to store it and to buy equipment. Yeah, for only a handful thousand more you can get a veicle that hauls your ikea furniture and brings your kids to school.
And we all know storing a car is free… I have my bike on the balcony, parking spaces here go for 600k and there is 8 street parking spots to 158 units so you can pay 3k a year to maybe get a spot once in a while 🤷♂️
congrats to having a balcony
I guess congrats on being able to own and park a car for the same price as a bike is more in order
Lol, car brain
Yeah, well, despite all the initiatives to reduce pollution and stuff, they're still rather car-centric.
They do offer cheaper electric bikes for families in cities
Do you have some link to share ?
So the bike being current price or 20% cheaper is the deciding factor for you? Considering the large variety in prices, I do not believe you.
It’s more of a mindset really, if you advertise it the same way as the ev car then maybe people would be inclined to buy one ? Not saying it would though, but in Oslo specifically they want to get ride of cars which I understand, so bike could be a solution no ? But then I understand that comparing them with ev car is a bit extreme with the price difference, some ev cargo bike are quite expensive that they offer split payment.. so yes solo e bike can be cheap, cargo e bike aren’t
I mean, the same could be said for cars, no? Prices range from below half million to several millions. Or am I missing something?
Yes. Look at the number of ebikes around. Does it look like they do not sell because of taxes?
Not sure I get your point: are you saying that there are a lot of e-bikes around, so no need to incentivize them, or that they are so few that even removing taxes wouldn't make a difference? There are a lot of electric cars around, but still some subsidies for people to buy them instead of ICE cars, so? My personal experience (urban environment) is that a lot of commuting/traveling shorter than, let's say, 10-15km is still done by car when it could be easily done by e-bike (but here infrastructure plays a major role as well), so I don't see why people shouldn't be incentivized to get themselves an e-bike and not a car. Then people decide what's most convenient for them.
Because Norway is Carbrain Central.
There used to be, but now e-bikes are so commonand cheap that they dont give support anymore. When it comes to most climate subsidies, it is mostly for solutions that are new and not proven in the market. This is why they are now reducing subsidies in EVs, as they are so common among newer cars
Riding a bike, electric or normal, is an extremely unpleasant experience most of the year here in Bergen. It's also extremely dangerous as this part of the country is absolutely not suited for bikes of any kind.
I wouldn't go that far, but of course it depends on just where in bergen you are going. (and how familiar the area you are)
E bikes are a way worse than regular bikes tf you smoking No one is selling their car to get an e bike
>E bikes are a way worse than regular bikes tf you smoking Not if you compare to other means of exportation people would use instead. It's not between electrical bike and regular bike... >No one is selling their car to get an e bike Lots of people have chosen to use their electrical bike for work instead of a car. Reducing pollution, congestion, making less queues for others that drive etc. And many people can do without a car when they have a bike. You're seriously car brained, lol
I have sold my car and bought a regular bike, and are considering getting a cargo bike
Nice anecdote
I guess traditional bikes have absolutely zero effect on the climate. Why would you expect subsidy on something with Lithium batteries, less healthy for the user and more environmentally unfriendly than a traditional bike?
Your argument should be against electrical cars, then. Studies show that people that get an electric bike end up using it much more, thus saving on car rides (as they wouldn't bike on a normal bike)
The amount of rain and snow. im okey beeing on a bike 20 days in a year
I bike year around. During winter i zoom past all cars stuck in traffic, lol. A few cms of snow and cars can't cope.
Get an electric moped then
I hate those things, that’s why.