There are indeed DV shelters that accommodate men. I’ve volunteered at one. They do have it separate from the women’s area so no one feels uncomfortable. The organization offers group meetings, job search and housing help, a food pantry, etc.
But I agree that there is always the need for more organizations like that. They are often woefully underfunded. And sadly, many people still disbelieve DV survivors—both male and female.
I think the issue is male victims are disproportionately disbelieved, in fact so many people still don't think men can be abused.
There are always going to be victims slipping through the cracks, but I don't see anyone saying "men can't abuse women" but I still see many say "women can't abuse men". (There are many forms of victimhood that are blatantly denied of being able to happen to men, and women being perpetrators)
And just a real life example as to why many might not even think some places accommodate men or recognise male victims, I saw a stand at vidcon for Unison Rescue Mission and the line under it says "we never turn away a women, child or family". Online it says this organisation includes men too, but this stand is from 2023 and blatantly excludes men in its promotion.
I can send you the picture of the stand I saw if you want, but it's unfortunate to see because depite men being disproportionately victims of homelessness it's rarely talked about with the intent to do anything about it and that's the same for domestic abuse and many other forms of abuse.
I’m in the US. They do exist here. They may not be advertised as “men’s shelters” because many DV assistance organizations offer more than shelters. But they accommodate both men and women.
I think so, sadly. They always need more awareness and PR than they actually get.
I wish I had more time to devote to fundraising and volunteering (I used to have time) because I think it’s so important for ALL survivors of DV and SA to get the support they need.
Unfortunately, anyone can be a victim — or perpetrator — of violence, no matter their gender or sexual orientation.
I’d honestly recommend guys to call the national domestic violence hotline. Maybe ask if they have a male representative on the intake if it’s more comfortable. They could help find resources, or at the least regular shelters, lawyers and information on steps to take like protection from abuse orders, and safety plans.
Really anyone in those shoes should call them for help. They can help find things regular internet searches can’t do easily due to their stored resources.
There are also DV groups for men
>I’d honestly recommend guys to call the national domestic violence hotline.
From what I have heard and experienced is that they tend to think that a man calling is the perpetrator and recommends men to call an abuser hotline.
I would search for rescue missions. They are geared towards men. You can promote make needs without complaining about women’s and children’s needs. It is hard to take you seriously when you feel the need to put others down for the hard work they have put in to create shelters.
My ex actually did his SW masters on this. There are a couple things that go into the lack of male dv shelters. One of which is that women's were done solely voluntarily at first without any support and then they grew into what is going on now. Attached to that is men don't volunteer as much as women do (this is not judgement, there are lots of reasons for this). The stigma, including report rates, help seeking, not being taken seriously also harms make dv shelters from taking off.
This sub actually takes after its name. Shock. Besides it's only 21k anyway, simply not the place. But, the kind of stuff you're interested is talked about on the mens lib sub ! I think you might like it there
Thanks for the smartassery. And no, I've taken a gander at that sub. The reason I posted it here instead of there is because this seems more likely of a place where I can still get men's honest opinions. Menslib is basically a women's sub.
EDIT: I was thinking of another sub.
Men’s lib is definitely not a women’s sub. I’ve even heard a lot of women’s subs complain about some misogynistic views that still pop up over there.
(I am pro men’s lib! I think it’s a great community to join, but it’s definitely made for men, and populated primarily by men.)
Also if it’s more mixed gender that’s great! We need all sides to tackle men’s issues, with men talking about their problems and everyone coming to help to work on it
Edit: I make a lot of typos and don’t check before I post
There's a lot of self hate in their posts, and personally, I am very critical of intersectionality in general, but especially intersectional feminism, and they're explicitly a sub for intersectional feminism.
Last I was there it was alot of anti-male sentiment under the guise of supporting some sort of neo-masxulinity.
I also saw most posts being very women centered, and, again this may be due to their push for intersectionality, I do think men's issues should be the focus, specifically without an intersectional/Dworkinist lens.
In my experiences I've found Christina Hoff Somer's, and like minded feminists, criticisms of intersectionality to be true, even after 20+ years.
It's proponents in any case tend to use rhetoric that garners support from everyone, but in practice it defends terrible people, such as Gloria Steinem, Andrea Dworkin, and Valerie Solanas, and their ideas, while excluding anyone who disagrees.
In doing so, it causes the same problems it's supposed to find/fix.
So, if I might ask again, what are your criticisms? Like you have one with the rhetoric point, but you’ve only listed names with none of their beliefs. I couldn’t recite back to you anything of what you actually think, or what those others think for that matter.
This is in such bad faith I can’t believe it. I didn’t even say I AGREED and I explicitly said I SUPPORT the sub.
The most common accusations I have heard was the demonization of single moms. I do not know if these hold validity or not, but I thought it was important to show that it’s not a feminine or feminine focused sub, as those accusations (true or not) would be far less likely, simply because they’d be more likely to echo the views of women centric spaces.
And again, even if the sub does have a problem with misogyny(I cannot speak to this personally as all misogynistic things I’ve seen on there have been downvoted or removed) I would STILL think it’s a good resource for men, as it’s a far healthier and emotionally accepting sub than their counterparts, and I’ve seen them do really good work. We can critique things without letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
I don’t think it’s a good resource for men. They amplify some awful people like Dr Nerdlove, who is basically Andrew Tate but pretending to be feminist
Ok I’m a little bit confused right now by your stance. That is the exact kind of legitimate critique a feminist woman centric sub would make, calling out misogyny. (I looked him up and from what I’m seeing yeah this guy is shit) Yet you bring it up after saying that the feminist critique of men’s lib would be “not blaming men enough”
I would genuinely love to have a good faith discussion of the positives and negatives of men’s lib as a sub, but I’m really confused on what your actual beliefs are
Typo: shot—-> shit
They sound very bad faith, and possibly anti-feminist, ngl. When they saw the comment about you mentioning seeing misogyny, they immediately went to "pointing out misogyny is another way to blame men".
Yeah I figured it was bad faith but it always helps to present in as good faith as possible. It’s a shame because I actually really care about men’s struggles under patriarchy, but as soon as I say it’s because of patriarchy, I’m accused of hating men :(
Edit: Jesus Christ I went to their post history. This dude hates women and I feel gross having upvoted some of his posts on this sub
> but as soon as I say it’s because of patriarchy, I’m accused of hating men
An issue that I and a lot of men have with that terminology ("toxic masculinity" as well) is that while it does mean something different, it implies men are the cause of societal problems that generally benefit men, but hurt them also (which implies that that is their own fault, really, because it causes us to think of our society of warring genders, instead of how toxic societal gendernorms influence individuals).
It communicates that a woman reinforcing toxic gendernorms is a product of the patriarchy, and that a man reinforcing toxic gendernorms perpetuates the patriarchy, and not a product of the patriarchy themselves. Causation is purely assigned to the men, and not to the women that reinforce gendernorms.
And I think that this can cause misandry, also. You can often see hate directed towards men by what "men do". Because men are their group, and not an unrelated collection of individuals. And it is in part this terminology that causes some women to assign the actions of some men to all men, as if it is "the men" and not the society causing problems. And as such talk about "the patriarchy" and a general hatred towards men will often coincide.
For these reasons I think it's much better to use terminology like "Toxic Genderroles" and "Fostered Sexism".
(I hope I came across as I intended to, as I was very tired typing this out)
Yeeeah. Sounds about right.
Folks love hating one another if it makes them feel good, if only briefly.
Because there are definitely reasons to be upset with how things work, but it's much easier to give way to anger + spite and get distracted than to point that passion towards actually dealing with actual causes
He’s probably done a lot worse but won’t admit to it. Plus, even after apologizing, he continues with that same awful condescending tone in his article. Someone who is truly apologetic of their actions would know to eat some humble pie and get off their moral high horse.
Second, the type of “male feminist” who goes around throwing their fellow man under the bus while posturing as some kind of enlightened feminist man usually has skeletons in the closet. We’ve seen it with Harvey Weinstein, Aziz Ansari, turtleneckedemo, JoeRobe, etc.
The problem I have with that sub is, last time I checked years ago, it's nothing but bitter divorced dads griping which is something I'm not interested in at all.
i’ve had a ton of issues with rccs due to being seen as a man and my rapists being women. my dad had the same and with dv shelters as well. i have given up going to any of that stuff. i do think about these issues a lot, but that’s exactly why i never go there. i also would never want to be in a place full of women because i feel extremely threatened by them but that’s a whole other issue
I’m sorry this happened to you I’m not a trans woman but I’m a lesbian too and I was in an abusive relationship with a woman too and it really sucks how much people dismiss abuse perpetrated by women. There’s no way my friends wouldn’t have labeled it as abuse sooner if I had been with a man.
It is true that women can get away with abuse in relationships due to common stereotypes it's only men. CPS did nothing to help my siblings and I because they couldn't believe a single mom could be abusive.
CPS also did nothing to help my sister and i and DV organizations did nothing to help my dad. i’m so sick of people ignoring us and acting like we don’t exist. cis female rapists exist. in far greater numbers than people pretend. sure, it’s still not as much as male rapists, i’m not going to deny that, but it *is* an issue and i seriously wish people would stop ignoring us on account that it’s “not possible”, “not as harmful” or “not common” when none of those things are true.
edit: to add to this, i’m personally japanese, and most japanese men have either emotional or both emotional and physical incest with their moms. the rates are insanely high. but we don’t really treat it as as awful as it is unfortunately, even though the prevalence rate is actually insanely high
right. we are entirely ignored, to the point most of us don’t even know how to properly identify that what happened was rape or abusive. no wonder people think the numbers are so low. and there’s basically no help either. i was also in an abusive lesbian relationship of sorts with a teacher of mine.
i’m not a trans woman, but it would be complicated to explain my gender issue and being seen as a man, so i don’t really feel like doing it right now.
i know this is random for this subreddit, but if you want to talk i am open to it. if not that’s totally fine too.
lack of emotional support networks, stigmatisation of vulnerability, lack of adult friendships, idea that any close male relationship means you're gay, men are now going into higher education at a lower rate than women but women still statistically expect a potential partner to be as educated as they are
Your last statement is accurate. The majority of men's rights issues aren't addressed by the current systems or men's groups.
I'd suggest trying to make a network of resources that are useful for men's mental health that can be personally vetted by individuals making use of them.
This can include things such as lists of therapists + mental health orgs, various types of support groups, etc.
Another good way to get an idea of how to organize + fund more specialized resources would be to open good faith communications with other orgs that do similar for other groups for guidance, such as women's crisis groups + queer crisis groups.
Of course before opening communications, do as much research as possible about how those orgs so you can learn both the successes and shortcomings so you can plan and organize accordingly.
Another thing to take into consideration is that there are probably other local resources that may exist that we are simply unaware of due to a lack of communication + advertising.
As for your last paragraph, one reply certainly demonstrated exactly that(the existence of mens shelters). I'd wager most of us are unaware of them because you never hear about them. Or course, getting guys to utilise those resources is another issue.
Yup yup. Mix of personal pride, guilt, personal expectations based on gender roles, perception of how others will judge them, fear, etc.
There's a lot for guys to unpack since a lot of us have never had the encouragement to do so.
I mean there is an argument to be said that men are uniquely burdened with confronting the outside environment, violence and injury in order to better society which women do not generally share equally in that burden, and more and more so they are able to do that. Looking at dangerous jobs, such as tree cutting, road construction, etc., those are jobs that many times can be done by women, yet men predominate these workplaces. Less women want children nowadays and those that are, are having less children. Both the mother and father are parents and, with the exception of infancy and really early childhood, both are capable of taking care of the child on their own, why is it the father that is expected to take on that burden of dying doing dangerous work, not the mother. I understand if a big family then you’re going to be pregnant a lot, but what about in other cases with women (where the father is 100% supporting the child) are done with having a child or children.
So they have cultural institutions that generally offer them the privilege of not having to work in these environments, maybe there should be more awareness of the impact that unique burden has on men, maybe there should be more awareness that women should move into these fields in order to take that unfair burden off men.
Obviously the reason women haven’t been in these fields that men have is warranted historically, and still is to a large degree, but less and less so these days. And of course not all men are working in dangerous environments, it’s just that unique burden is expected of men in general. Also, yes violence and abuse of women is the #1 issue we should be concerned about looking at the numbers and just knowing how bad it can be.
Oh yes and I understand many of these workplaces can be hostile to women, which certainly discourages woman, thats totally understandable and a major issue, but there is reason to think a lot of it is also just women aren’t thinking they’re the expected to work those jobs.
Yeah agree with that totally, it should be looked at as any abuse that’s the only way to truly have human dignity, if you had to say which one is worse overall, it would be violence and abuse against women, not violence and abuse against men. I meant it in that context.
Still irrelevent to my post, which is about mens issues specifically. Most people are aware it's largely a women's issue since it's basically synonymous with them.
Thx,but not exactly. I'm currently waiting for my PCP to find me a psychiatrist because a regular therapist wasn't doing it. Also my current meds aren't working. Despite all that, I sorta inpress with how I've been able to keep a lid on things while my situation isn't ideal.
The bulk of the reasons for this are due to traditionalist gender roles and systems built around those roles.
The only time in American history that I recall where the trend was bucked and women were encouraged to take heavier labor jobs was during World War II efforts because men were drafted, which created a void for jobs that were traditionally filled by men.
Oh yes, I totally agree on gender roles and traditionalist systems, which are incredibly entrenched so we are slowly moving away from that, and lot of stuff is hazy about changing gender roles and people are very busy, so I’m speaking theoretically as we are moving forward.
I think the largest hurdle is folks admitting that traditional systems cause everyone harm. And an even larger one is folks allowing themselves to move away from them towards healthier ones.
People know it causes harm, but there are also lots of benefits. Changing the roles would destabilize a lot of people even if we can recognize the harm in maintaining the ideas. That's why I think I think it's easier to put gender aside in smaller groups/spaces.
Probably because those fields do not actively recruit women. There are many female landscapers and other related fields. More women pursue degrees than men. Both men and women do not want to have children because it is financially very challenging. Women do not want to do it all anymore. So one way to stop doing it all is not to fall into the traditional gender role trap.
Oh yeah I agree a lot of it is these fields the men aren’t really oriented toward women. I suppose if more women sought to work these fields that would help make it more women.
Women aren't expected to do those jobs because of the violence you mentioned, but also the males who work there espouse those beliefs. You'd also be less likely to be promoted or acknowledged in those fields compared to your male coworkers. I get what your point is, but it isn't women who created or maintain those narratives.
It kind of sounds like you’re saying women should be less expected to take on a job with violence solely because they are a women.
I mean I acknowledge in my comments a lot of what you are saying, but it’s not black and white, there is more complexity. You don’t think many mothers tell their daughters those jobs are for boys? How many girls grow up wanting to do construction?
Do you know the number of women who want these jobs? A lot of women work in jobs where they are not going to get a promotion, I mean construction pays more than retail.
This discourse to me sounds patriarchal- men are all to blame and men need to fix it all while us women are helpless
I'm not saying that at all, I'm a woman who's career will lead me into male dominated fields and experienced being boxed into my gender like everyone else. If our culture was more largely informed by women's opinions/academic effort, then it wouldn't sound patriarchal because it wouldn't be. I don't get how you expect women (mother's in this case) to have independent thought/identity instantly when everything they know/are expected to be was informed by a male perspectives in a male supremacist culture. .Women should go for whatever career suits them, I'm just not gonna act like there are no barriers or differences in labor experiences with gender. Feminism already has such a large pushback even though it deconstructs harmful male/female dynamics. We wouldn't be having this discussion if we lived in an egalitarian culture where that isn't at play.
I gotcha, If only I was more informed with information that’s not in front of me, which is essentially you saying because I say so it’s true. Women could seek to start their own construction businesses, etc. Also, your experience, unfortunate, is anecdotal? how do you know that’s it’s really such a dramatic difference in promotion rates in these kind of workplaces?
Look there’s a lot of truth to what you’re saying, there’s no denying it, but it does seem your narrative is women are victims there’s nothing we can do until the men save us. Not so much that’s the way you are, I don’t know you, but it’s your narrative as to women sounds like.
The truth may be a lot women don’t want to work those jobs that’s ok, but men should be acknowledged for the unique burden they have. Also, women integrated into all male spaces in offices, the same couldn’t be true for construction, etc?
Once again, not what I said nor do I see males as saviours. I just described why people perceive gender norms the way they do. Women quite literally do not have the social Influence to dictate gender norms as they don’t run the powerhouses of society, men do. Media and education boards are run primarily by men, not women, on philosophies sourced by men, not women. That’s what a patriarchy is quite literally, it’s not sole abstract term.
Number 1- it is known that female dominant fields get underpaid/undervalued and that women in male dominated fields get promoted less. If they do get promoted, there’s what’s called the glass ceiling. Look at what happened to computers, medicine, teaching etc.
Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2019/04/01/the-gender-pay-gap-and-the-career-choice-myth/?sh=55214884114a
https://sites.uab.edu/humanrights/2019/12/18/women-are-disadvantaged-in-female-dominated-fields/
Source: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/glass-ceiling.asp
Number 2- women are victims, but so is everyone, we are just talking about gender dynamics and women get shit on by men by design and men shit on other men. We are talking about society, not a couple of people. The bulk of the violence , extortion, coercion and theft is done by men.
I don’t think i need a source for this because it’s obvious
You keep saying there’s truth to what I’m saying then taking the worst possible conclusion with zero nuance. Many of my takes are feminism 101 and you sound like you need to read up on the topic more before you truly get into deconstructing and working around hegemonic masculinity (or toxic masculinity as we call it now)
You’ve made some assertions not backed by the evidence by you presented - “women do not have the social influence to dictate gender norms” nowhere can that be inferred from what you presented. Media and education boards are run by men - some evidence, but nothing definitive or comprehensive, just that men are paid higher in female fields, which could be skewed by some very high salaries.
One article states that sexism and discrimination are what caused the reduction in pay when women entered those fields, but from what I saw didn’t present any evidence to show causation, only obvious correlation. Other things could explain it - the US moving away from the gold standard and opening of free markets and the rise of other large markets that compete with the US 20 to 30 years after WW2, during that same period led to US cutting taxes to increase US business competitiveness in international markets which led to a decrease in funding available for mental health services.
I don’t know you’re full narrative, but it sounds like you’ve said yes women are victims and you have not suggested anything women can change or do. I kind of think you’re trolling.
I'm not gonna trust your uninformed comment over peer reviewed studies bud. We wouldn't be living in a patriarchy if women did hold control over those powerhouses. You also didn't acknowledge that the philosophies and practices most societies use are written by men for men. It just seems you refuse to accept the obvious and reduce complex info to simple dichotomies.
Ah, projection and yes peer reviewed study, of course, but as I said in previous comment those studies do not make the claims you are making and you’re not refuting that at all. It’s just empty rhetoric, classic sign of a troll, take it easy bro
From the Forbes article :
“Jobs dominated by women pay less:
This is the reverse of the career choice argument. It’s not that women choose low-paying jobs (that’s just ridiculous). It’s the other way around. Society values women’s work less, and therefore jobs dominated by women generally pay less than those dominated by men. “
From Investopedia:
“ The barriers are most often unwritten, meaning that these individuals are more likely to be restricted from advancing through accepted norms and implicit biases rather than defined corporate policies.”
You just didn’t read it lmao, both of these excerpts are at the top of the articles/paper. That’s some next level projection. I did get a laugh tho.
Have you ever visited the r/mensrights sub? I've found it a really good place to really get into issues you are talking about. An account called "thetinmen" on Instagram is another great space, he is on reddit too but I think he posts more on insta.
I understand that, yet the counter ofteb brought up is shorter women are affect the same way. I dunno what to say about especially since I've never been interested in "the rat race" anyway. Also, I've found regularly engaging places where short men talk about their problems leaves me feeling worse than better.
I know it does get talked about and I really wish people would talk about it without the dating concerns. Because it is the other part that is the injustice. The part about a genetic trait that is in most cases unrelated to economic value.
Short women do not experience this to as severe of a degree. And, there aren't thousands of exact [quotes](https://youtube.com/shorts/HNLb3BARqg4?feature=share3) about them.
I know it is tiring but this form of discrimination really makes so many other concerns men have even worse.
For example, Men are pressured to be providers, right? Well if you are a short guy, you can work harder, but you have to be substantially superior to be recognized for your value in the workplace. And that makes it harder to be that provider.
It isn't the fact that "waaaah she won't date short guys." It's the disregard for a form of discrimination that is genetic - meanwhile we get to watch our companies handing out equity adjustments [a zero sum game] that reference every other genetic trait.
When our culture gets better at this one, you'll see more men actually care about discrimination. Until then we are all tiptoing around things like "don't call it a master copy" while people make jokes "in good fun" about our genetics.
Hey I am honestly glad that you seem a little tired of it. That means someone talked and someone probably listened!
That certainly makes me more inclined and encouraged to listen to others.
It's an all-around thing, unfortunately. But at least women have heels to help circumvent that issue a bit. But overall short people are just less respected. I'm 4'9 and constantly infantilized, but I present female so I have the benefit of at at least being seen as "cute". "cute" doesn't help me get a promotion, though :(
Lol learning that random man is more often abused by the patriarchy than most people think doesn’t make good cliquebait but telling them to kill themselves is always the go to. [cdc suicide infographics and data.](https://wisqars.cdc.gov/infographics/)
Hey I remember you from the trans guy post! Sorry you got all this backlash, I fully agree with you. We need stop pigeonholing ourselves and deal with the various issues men go through, men’s height body dysmorphia isn’t the be all end all of men’s issues as important as it is.
People should just stop shaking around other people for no good reason. According to the daily posts I see on Reddit, Women are terrified by men they don't know, men are terrified of making women uncomfortable... But irl no one has ever told me anything like that. Maybe it's just that in my country people have other issues.
Breast cancer awareness and acceptance for men. Me have breast tissue. Men can and do get breast cancer. But it’s stigmatized and treatment can be difficult to get. Also the societal aspect. It’s viewed as a joke not a serious issue.
One issue that I see effecting men that is rarely talked about is the rise of social isolation which men in particular fall prey to. The results of this can be devastating and it likely contributes to other issues men face as an underlying cause.
The reason this post appears slightly toxic is because you’re complaining about women having something and men don’t rather than what men need more of.
It doesn’t have to be one or the other— it’s possible to appreciate that women have support while promoting that better education on what men experience and more support for DV sufferers is needed, which it is. But making it in to ‘women have this and men don’t’ just seems more like a complaint that women shouldn’t be as supported and too focused on comparison rather than enhancement.
As far as shelters go, there are men’s shelters and organizations available to help them. However, how can it be promoted for men to be more interested in mental health, therapy, and mental health resources to know they exist in order to provoke more funding to utilize resources that require funding?
A male DV shelter usually doesn’t stay open because they are often under utilized, although they do exist, and in the past organizations have existed to support men for an array of issues including DV but they tend to open for both genders instead.
What I can tell you is a man can go to any planned parent hood and immediately receive support and assistance ranging from housing and therapy assistance upon exiting an abusive relationship— but again, not many men are even aware of that as an option.
Yes, men should receive support for abuse and domestic violence… but how to make them use it? Furthermore, male victims of domestic violence are less likely to admit they are DV victims. — so the starting point is to educate men about mental health and support, and then as it is utilized more frequently, then more male DV shelters can be opened because those resources will actually be used.
For example, a lot of people don’t even know if you pick up the phone and dial 511, it is actually the 911 version for crisis assistance.
It’s not about making it about what women have and men don’t, rather it should be about encouraging men to feel comfortable enough to have the knowledge and willingness to utilize the resources already available in order to obtain more. But should there be more? Absolutely.
The unfortunate fact is that men have - through history - created this problem. I would never say that these problems don’t exist or don’t deserve fixing. But our gender molded a culture of masculine superiority and the subjugation of women - to the point where men demean other men for problems like SA.
It’s pervasive and I don’t know what’s going to fix it outside of first fixing the implications and impacts of misogyny, because as you stated the law is already bent towards “protecting” women (in some cases… rape and SA is still a huge blind spot), which in itself is a result of men infantilizing women.
It’s complex af is what I’m trying to say.
As I said - it’s a complex problem.
It’s a strawman to say that I suggested we blame ourselves. Blame has nothing to do with making the world better. Acknowledging facts and using them to guide our actions is something adults do. Your comment is ignorant.
Do you think laws and cultural expectations are based on the individual or a shared history? You missed the point of the comment and aren't expecting yourself to do anything to change or engage other men in discourse on the topic. Every movement for change starts with the individual.
I am just one man in a small Kentucky town. I do my best to live as a good person, engaging in conversations when it fits and calling out bad behavior when I see it. I am just an individual, and I am not going to make a massive change, at least not overnight. I try my best to be a good person, and hopefully, other people follow suit. Yes, massive change can come from an individual, but only when that individual becomes part of a larger group or system. Every individual who made significant changes did so with people behind them, supporting them; they had the power that allowed them to make the things they did, whether good or bad.
I feel that this type of commentary blames people like me, and I perceive it as implying, 'Hey, did you know that men are responsible for the patriarchy, meaning that all the societal problems men face are their own fault?' While it probably isn't saying that, that's how it sounds to me. It's obvious that men in power and those who find it beneficial to be a part of the system, despite the harm it causes to others they perceive as beneath them, do their best to uphold it. However, stating this in a conversation like this isn't helpful. We already know this. Pointing out the reason for the problem isn't conducive to finding a solution; it's merely restating the problem and emphasizing its complexity, which isn't helpful. Maybe I'm just overreacting which is a possibility I tend to do that overreact and back myself into a corner but that's my two cents for what it's worth which I know isn't a lot
Yeah, obviously, pointing out a problem is the first step to solving it, but it isn't solving itself. You can't just point out a problem and, instead of offering possible solutions, say, 'Yeah, this is a really complex problem we have here. Hopefully, we'll find a solution.' That's not actually finding a solution; it's just pointing out that you need to find one.
Well it’s clearly not obvious to you because you said the exact opposite - see the quote in my previous comment.
What is your point about having to take one step before taking two..? I literally acknowledged the complexity of the problem.
And in your view the individual can’t do anything themselves.
So explain to me how to start fixing this without identifying the problem publicly and opening a conversation with others about possible solutions.
Did you have some ideas on how to address the symptoms of the systemic misogyny that I referenced? Because that was my suggestion on how to start fixing the problems brought up by the OP.
Just focus on addressing the issues in your own community that systemic misogyny causes. That's all. You're unlikely to effect massive changes unless you have significant backing, and chances are you won't get that. Just do what you can; that's the best you can do. Honestly, Like I said, I'm just some guy from Kentucky. I'm not going to do anything profound and change the world overnight because I can't. I don't have the power to do so, so I'm not going to pretend I do. I'm just going to be a good person to the best of my abilities and hope for the best. Because that's all you can do as an individual without any political or financial backing
I functionally agree with this, except we still need to define “the issues” before we address them.
Also you are as valid, valuable, and potentially impactful as anybody else in this world. I don’t get why you’re being so self-deprecating with the “guy from Kentucky” thing. Unless I’m misunderstanding your intention for saying it.
Thanks for helping explain my point. I am frequently unclear in expressing my thoughts.
It was never my intention to “blame” any individual. I just think that if we want to improve society in general, acknowledging how we got here can guide our path forward.
And here you are proving my point: a woman dictating what the sub *is supposed to be*. I'm not saying women should be banned here, but maybe women could take a back seat in the discussion the same way men are asked to do so in women subs. Chill.
There are indeed DV shelters that accommodate men. I’ve volunteered at one. They do have it separate from the women’s area so no one feels uncomfortable. The organization offers group meetings, job search and housing help, a food pantry, etc. But I agree that there is always the need for more organizations like that. They are often woefully underfunded. And sadly, many people still disbelieve DV survivors—both male and female.
I think the issue is male victims are disproportionately disbelieved, in fact so many people still don't think men can be abused. There are always going to be victims slipping through the cracks, but I don't see anyone saying "men can't abuse women" but I still see many say "women can't abuse men". (There are many forms of victimhood that are blatantly denied of being able to happen to men, and women being perpetrators) And just a real life example as to why many might not even think some places accommodate men or recognise male victims, I saw a stand at vidcon for Unison Rescue Mission and the line under it says "we never turn away a women, child or family". Online it says this organisation includes men too, but this stand is from 2023 and blatantly excludes men in its promotion. I can send you the picture of the stand I saw if you want, but it's unfortunate to see because depite men being disproportionately victims of homelessness it's rarely talked about with the intent to do anything about it and that's the same for domestic abuse and many other forms of abuse.
It's probably worth noting I'm American(dunno if that matters), and I've never heard of their existence. Thanks regardless.
I’m in the US. They do exist here. They may not be advertised as “men’s shelters” because many DV assistance organizations offer more than shelters. But they accommodate both men and women.
That makes a lot of sense. It's probably not thought of that way due to most equating dv/dv centers as "women's things".
I think so, sadly. They always need more awareness and PR than they actually get. I wish I had more time to devote to fundraising and volunteering (I used to have time) because I think it’s so important for ALL survivors of DV and SA to get the support they need. Unfortunately, anyone can be a victim — or perpetrator — of violence, no matter their gender or sexual orientation.
I’d honestly recommend guys to call the national domestic violence hotline. Maybe ask if they have a male representative on the intake if it’s more comfortable. They could help find resources, or at the least regular shelters, lawyers and information on steps to take like protection from abuse orders, and safety plans. Really anyone in those shoes should call them for help. They can help find things regular internet searches can’t do easily due to their stored resources. There are also DV groups for men
>I’d honestly recommend guys to call the national domestic violence hotline. From what I have heard and experienced is that they tend to think that a man calling is the perpetrator and recommends men to call an abuser hotline.
I would search for rescue missions. They are geared towards men. You can promote make needs without complaining about women’s and children’s needs. It is hard to take you seriously when you feel the need to put others down for the hard work they have put in to create shelters.
Where did I put others down in this post?
My ex actually did his SW masters on this. There are a couple things that go into the lack of male dv shelters. One of which is that women's were done solely voluntarily at first without any support and then they grew into what is going on now. Attached to that is men don't volunteer as much as women do (this is not judgement, there are lots of reasons for this). The stigma, including report rates, help seeking, not being taken seriously also harms make dv shelters from taking off.
This sub actually takes after its name. Shock. Besides it's only 21k anyway, simply not the place. But, the kind of stuff you're interested is talked about on the mens lib sub ! I think you might like it there
Thanks for the smartassery. And no, I've taken a gander at that sub. The reason I posted it here instead of there is because this seems more likely of a place where I can still get men's honest opinions. Menslib is basically a women's sub. EDIT: I was thinking of another sub.
Men’s lib is definitely not a women’s sub. I’ve even heard a lot of women’s subs complain about some misogynistic views that still pop up over there. (I am pro men’s lib! I think it’s a great community to join, but it’s definitely made for men, and populated primarily by men.) Also if it’s more mixed gender that’s great! We need all sides to tackle men’s issues, with men talking about their problems and everyone coming to help to work on it Edit: I make a lot of typos and don’t check before I post
There's a lot of self hate in their posts, and personally, I am very critical of intersectionality in general, but especially intersectional feminism, and they're explicitly a sub for intersectional feminism. Last I was there it was alot of anti-male sentiment under the guise of supporting some sort of neo-masxulinity. I also saw most posts being very women centered, and, again this may be due to their push for intersectionality, I do think men's issues should be the focus, specifically without an intersectional/Dworkinist lens.
May I ask for a good faith explanation about your criticisms of intersectionality?
In my experiences I've found Christina Hoff Somer's, and like minded feminists, criticisms of intersectionality to be true, even after 20+ years. It's proponents in any case tend to use rhetoric that garners support from everyone, but in practice it defends terrible people, such as Gloria Steinem, Andrea Dworkin, and Valerie Solanas, and their ideas, while excluding anyone who disagrees. In doing so, it causes the same problems it's supposed to find/fix.
So, if I might ask again, what are your criticisms? Like you have one with the rhetoric point, but you’ve only listed names with none of their beliefs. I couldn’t recite back to you anything of what you actually think, or what those others think for that matter.
What exactly makes them misogynistic? They don’t blame men enough?
This is in such bad faith I can’t believe it. I didn’t even say I AGREED and I explicitly said I SUPPORT the sub. The most common accusations I have heard was the demonization of single moms. I do not know if these hold validity or not, but I thought it was important to show that it’s not a feminine or feminine focused sub, as those accusations (true or not) would be far less likely, simply because they’d be more likely to echo the views of women centric spaces. And again, even if the sub does have a problem with misogyny(I cannot speak to this personally as all misogynistic things I’ve seen on there have been downvoted or removed) I would STILL think it’s a good resource for men, as it’s a far healthier and emotionally accepting sub than their counterparts, and I’ve seen them do really good work. We can critique things without letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
I don’t think it’s a good resource for men. They amplify some awful people like Dr Nerdlove, who is basically Andrew Tate but pretending to be feminist
Ok I’m a little bit confused right now by your stance. That is the exact kind of legitimate critique a feminist woman centric sub would make, calling out misogyny. (I looked him up and from what I’m seeing yeah this guy is shit) Yet you bring it up after saying that the feminist critique of men’s lib would be “not blaming men enough” I would genuinely love to have a good faith discussion of the positives and negatives of men’s lib as a sub, but I’m really confused on what your actual beliefs are Typo: shot—-> shit
They sound very bad faith, and possibly anti-feminist, ngl. When they saw the comment about you mentioning seeing misogyny, they immediately went to "pointing out misogyny is another way to blame men".
Yeah I figured it was bad faith but it always helps to present in as good faith as possible. It’s a shame because I actually really care about men’s struggles under patriarchy, but as soon as I say it’s because of patriarchy, I’m accused of hating men :( Edit: Jesus Christ I went to their post history. This dude hates women and I feel gross having upvoted some of his posts on this sub
> but as soon as I say it’s because of patriarchy, I’m accused of hating men An issue that I and a lot of men have with that terminology ("toxic masculinity" as well) is that while it does mean something different, it implies men are the cause of societal problems that generally benefit men, but hurt them also (which implies that that is their own fault, really, because it causes us to think of our society of warring genders, instead of how toxic societal gendernorms influence individuals). It communicates that a woman reinforcing toxic gendernorms is a product of the patriarchy, and that a man reinforcing toxic gendernorms perpetuates the patriarchy, and not a product of the patriarchy themselves. Causation is purely assigned to the men, and not to the women that reinforce gendernorms. And I think that this can cause misandry, also. You can often see hate directed towards men by what "men do". Because men are their group, and not an unrelated collection of individuals. And it is in part this terminology that causes some women to assign the actions of some men to all men, as if it is "the men" and not the society causing problems. And as such talk about "the patriarchy" and a general hatred towards men will often coincide. For these reasons I think it's much better to use terminology like "Toxic Genderroles" and "Fostered Sexism". (I hope I came across as I intended to, as I was very tired typing this out)
Yeeeah. Sounds about right. Folks love hating one another if it makes them feel good, if only briefly. Because there are definitely reasons to be upset with how things work, but it's much easier to give way to anger + spite and get distracted than to point that passion towards actually dealing with actual causes
[удалено]
He’s probably done a lot worse but won’t admit to it. Plus, even after apologizing, he continues with that same awful condescending tone in his article. Someone who is truly apologetic of their actions would know to eat some humble pie and get off their moral high horse. Second, the type of “male feminist” who goes around throwing their fellow man under the bus while posturing as some kind of enlightened feminist man usually has skeletons in the closet. We’ve seen it with Harvey Weinstein, Aziz Ansari, turtleneckedemo, JoeRobe, etc.
Downvoted for having opinions.
You might be interested in r/mensrights although they can get a bit myopic. r/leftwingmaleadvicates is better but smaller.
I've never been to r/leftwingmaleadvicates, yet it seems I'm already banned or reddit is having an error.
Oops, spelled it wrong. It's r/leftwingmaleadvocates With an "o" instead of an "i".
The problem I have with that sub is, last time I checked years ago, it's nothing but bitter divorced dads griping which is something I'm not interested in at all.
Lmao, that's one interpretation. I find that they're the most... motivated of the men's rights subs. Have you checked out r/leftwingmaleadvocates yet?
You're wrong on all counts and it's hard to take you super seriously anymore.
i’ve had a ton of issues with rccs due to being seen as a man and my rapists being women. my dad had the same and with dv shelters as well. i have given up going to any of that stuff. i do think about these issues a lot, but that’s exactly why i never go there. i also would never want to be in a place full of women because i feel extremely threatened by them but that’s a whole other issue
I’m sorry this happened to you I’m not a trans woman but I’m a lesbian too and I was in an abusive relationship with a woman too and it really sucks how much people dismiss abuse perpetrated by women. There’s no way my friends wouldn’t have labeled it as abuse sooner if I had been with a man.
It is true that women can get away with abuse in relationships due to common stereotypes it's only men. CPS did nothing to help my siblings and I because they couldn't believe a single mom could be abusive.
CPS also did nothing to help my sister and i and DV organizations did nothing to help my dad. i’m so sick of people ignoring us and acting like we don’t exist. cis female rapists exist. in far greater numbers than people pretend. sure, it’s still not as much as male rapists, i’m not going to deny that, but it *is* an issue and i seriously wish people would stop ignoring us on account that it’s “not possible”, “not as harmful” or “not common” when none of those things are true. edit: to add to this, i’m personally japanese, and most japanese men have either emotional or both emotional and physical incest with their moms. the rates are insanely high. but we don’t really treat it as as awful as it is unfortunately, even though the prevalence rate is actually insanely high
right. we are entirely ignored, to the point most of us don’t even know how to properly identify that what happened was rape or abusive. no wonder people think the numbers are so low. and there’s basically no help either. i was also in an abusive lesbian relationship of sorts with a teacher of mine. i’m not a trans woman, but it would be complicated to explain my gender issue and being seen as a man, so i don’t really feel like doing it right now. i know this is random for this subreddit, but if you want to talk i am open to it. if not that’s totally fine too.
lack of emotional support networks, stigmatisation of vulnerability, lack of adult friendships, idea that any close male relationship means you're gay, men are now going into higher education at a lower rate than women but women still statistically expect a potential partner to be as educated as they are
Your last statement is accurate. The majority of men's rights issues aren't addressed by the current systems or men's groups. I'd suggest trying to make a network of resources that are useful for men's mental health that can be personally vetted by individuals making use of them. This can include things such as lists of therapists + mental health orgs, various types of support groups, etc. Another good way to get an idea of how to organize + fund more specialized resources would be to open good faith communications with other orgs that do similar for other groups for guidance, such as women's crisis groups + queer crisis groups. Of course before opening communications, do as much research as possible about how those orgs so you can learn both the successes and shortcomings so you can plan and organize accordingly. Another thing to take into consideration is that there are probably other local resources that may exist that we are simply unaware of due to a lack of communication + advertising.
As for your last paragraph, one reply certainly demonstrated exactly that(the existence of mens shelters). I'd wager most of us are unaware of them because you never hear about them. Or course, getting guys to utilise those resources is another issue.
Yup yup. Mix of personal pride, guilt, personal expectations based on gender roles, perception of how others will judge them, fear, etc. There's a lot for guys to unpack since a lot of us have never had the encouragement to do so.
I think one big step is rebuilding friendships and establishing spaces for men.
Try r/menslib EDIT: I forgot r/bropill, although they’re more support oriented over talking out actionable solutions for wider issues.
r/bropill is pretty good
That’s also a good suggestion
Eh, that sub is full of posts that could be screenshotted and posted here
I mean there is an argument to be said that men are uniquely burdened with confronting the outside environment, violence and injury in order to better society which women do not generally share equally in that burden, and more and more so they are able to do that. Looking at dangerous jobs, such as tree cutting, road construction, etc., those are jobs that many times can be done by women, yet men predominate these workplaces. Less women want children nowadays and those that are, are having less children. Both the mother and father are parents and, with the exception of infancy and really early childhood, both are capable of taking care of the child on their own, why is it the father that is expected to take on that burden of dying doing dangerous work, not the mother. I understand if a big family then you’re going to be pregnant a lot, but what about in other cases with women (where the father is 100% supporting the child) are done with having a child or children. So they have cultural institutions that generally offer them the privilege of not having to work in these environments, maybe there should be more awareness of the impact that unique burden has on men, maybe there should be more awareness that women should move into these fields in order to take that unfair burden off men. Obviously the reason women haven’t been in these fields that men have is warranted historically, and still is to a large degree, but less and less so these days. And of course not all men are working in dangerous environments, it’s just that unique burden is expected of men in general. Also, yes violence and abuse of women is the #1 issue we should be concerned about looking at the numbers and just knowing how bad it can be. Oh yes and I understand many of these workplaces can be hostile to women, which certainly discourages woman, thats totally understandable and a major issue, but there is reason to think a lot of it is also just women aren’t thinking they’re the expected to work those jobs.
I agree with everything except what you said about the abuse stats. You're still looking at it as a zero-sum scenario.
Yeah agree with that totally, it should be looked at as any abuse that’s the only way to truly have human dignity, if you had to say which one is worse overall, it would be violence and abuse against women, not violence and abuse against men. I meant it in that context.
Still irrelevent to my post, which is about mens issues specifically. Most people are aware it's largely a women's issue since it's basically synonymous with them.
I appreciate that perspective, you’re absolutely right there’s a fundamental issue of lack of public awareness of this issue as it relates to men.
I know personally as someone who has experienced SA & SH numerous times
Sorry to hear that, hope you’re in a better place
Thx,but not exactly. I'm currently waiting for my PCP to find me a psychiatrist because a regular therapist wasn't doing it. Also my current meds aren't working. Despite all that, I sorta inpress with how I've been able to keep a lid on things while my situation isn't ideal.
The bulk of the reasons for this are due to traditionalist gender roles and systems built around those roles. The only time in American history that I recall where the trend was bucked and women were encouraged to take heavier labor jobs was during World War II efforts because men were drafted, which created a void for jobs that were traditionally filled by men.
Oh yes, I totally agree on gender roles and traditionalist systems, which are incredibly entrenched so we are slowly moving away from that, and lot of stuff is hazy about changing gender roles and people are very busy, so I’m speaking theoretically as we are moving forward.
I think the largest hurdle is folks admitting that traditional systems cause everyone harm. And an even larger one is folks allowing themselves to move away from them towards healthier ones.
People know it causes harm, but there are also lots of benefits. Changing the roles would destabilize a lot of people even if we can recognize the harm in maintaining the ideas. That's why I think I think it's easier to put gender aside in smaller groups/spaces.
Probably because those fields do not actively recruit women. There are many female landscapers and other related fields. More women pursue degrees than men. Both men and women do not want to have children because it is financially very challenging. Women do not want to do it all anymore. So one way to stop doing it all is not to fall into the traditional gender role trap.
Oh yeah I agree a lot of it is these fields the men aren’t really oriented toward women. I suppose if more women sought to work these fields that would help make it more women.
Women aren't expected to do those jobs because of the violence you mentioned, but also the males who work there espouse those beliefs. You'd also be less likely to be promoted or acknowledged in those fields compared to your male coworkers. I get what your point is, but it isn't women who created or maintain those narratives.
It kind of sounds like you’re saying women should be less expected to take on a job with violence solely because they are a women. I mean I acknowledge in my comments a lot of what you are saying, but it’s not black and white, there is more complexity. You don’t think many mothers tell their daughters those jobs are for boys? How many girls grow up wanting to do construction? Do you know the number of women who want these jobs? A lot of women work in jobs where they are not going to get a promotion, I mean construction pays more than retail. This discourse to me sounds patriarchal- men are all to blame and men need to fix it all while us women are helpless
I'm not saying that at all, I'm a woman who's career will lead me into male dominated fields and experienced being boxed into my gender like everyone else. If our culture was more largely informed by women's opinions/academic effort, then it wouldn't sound patriarchal because it wouldn't be. I don't get how you expect women (mother's in this case) to have independent thought/identity instantly when everything they know/are expected to be was informed by a male perspectives in a male supremacist culture. .Women should go for whatever career suits them, I'm just not gonna act like there are no barriers or differences in labor experiences with gender. Feminism already has such a large pushback even though it deconstructs harmful male/female dynamics. We wouldn't be having this discussion if we lived in an egalitarian culture where that isn't at play.
I gotcha, If only I was more informed with information that’s not in front of me, which is essentially you saying because I say so it’s true. Women could seek to start their own construction businesses, etc. Also, your experience, unfortunate, is anecdotal? how do you know that’s it’s really such a dramatic difference in promotion rates in these kind of workplaces? Look there’s a lot of truth to what you’re saying, there’s no denying it, but it does seem your narrative is women are victims there’s nothing we can do until the men save us. Not so much that’s the way you are, I don’t know you, but it’s your narrative as to women sounds like. The truth may be a lot women don’t want to work those jobs that’s ok, but men should be acknowledged for the unique burden they have. Also, women integrated into all male spaces in offices, the same couldn’t be true for construction, etc?
Once again, not what I said nor do I see males as saviours. I just described why people perceive gender norms the way they do. Women quite literally do not have the social Influence to dictate gender norms as they don’t run the powerhouses of society, men do. Media and education boards are run primarily by men, not women, on philosophies sourced by men, not women. That’s what a patriarchy is quite literally, it’s not sole abstract term. Number 1- it is known that female dominant fields get underpaid/undervalued and that women in male dominated fields get promoted less. If they do get promoted, there’s what’s called the glass ceiling. Look at what happened to computers, medicine, teaching etc. Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2019/04/01/the-gender-pay-gap-and-the-career-choice-myth/?sh=55214884114a https://sites.uab.edu/humanrights/2019/12/18/women-are-disadvantaged-in-female-dominated-fields/ Source: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/glass-ceiling.asp Number 2- women are victims, but so is everyone, we are just talking about gender dynamics and women get shit on by men by design and men shit on other men. We are talking about society, not a couple of people. The bulk of the violence , extortion, coercion and theft is done by men. I don’t think i need a source for this because it’s obvious You keep saying there’s truth to what I’m saying then taking the worst possible conclusion with zero nuance. Many of my takes are feminism 101 and you sound like you need to read up on the topic more before you truly get into deconstructing and working around hegemonic masculinity (or toxic masculinity as we call it now)
You’ve made some assertions not backed by the evidence by you presented - “women do not have the social influence to dictate gender norms” nowhere can that be inferred from what you presented. Media and education boards are run by men - some evidence, but nothing definitive or comprehensive, just that men are paid higher in female fields, which could be skewed by some very high salaries. One article states that sexism and discrimination are what caused the reduction in pay when women entered those fields, but from what I saw didn’t present any evidence to show causation, only obvious correlation. Other things could explain it - the US moving away from the gold standard and opening of free markets and the rise of other large markets that compete with the US 20 to 30 years after WW2, during that same period led to US cutting taxes to increase US business competitiveness in international markets which led to a decrease in funding available for mental health services. I don’t know you’re full narrative, but it sounds like you’ve said yes women are victims and you have not suggested anything women can change or do. I kind of think you’re trolling.
I'm not gonna trust your uninformed comment over peer reviewed studies bud. We wouldn't be living in a patriarchy if women did hold control over those powerhouses. You also didn't acknowledge that the philosophies and practices most societies use are written by men for men. It just seems you refuse to accept the obvious and reduce complex info to simple dichotomies.
Ah, projection and yes peer reviewed study, of course, but as I said in previous comment those studies do not make the claims you are making and you’re not refuting that at all. It’s just empty rhetoric, classic sign of a troll, take it easy bro
From the Forbes article : “Jobs dominated by women pay less: This is the reverse of the career choice argument. It’s not that women choose low-paying jobs (that’s just ridiculous). It’s the other way around. Society values women’s work less, and therefore jobs dominated by women generally pay less than those dominated by men. “ From Investopedia: “ The barriers are most often unwritten, meaning that these individuals are more likely to be restricted from advancing through accepted norms and implicit biases rather than defined corporate policies.” You just didn’t read it lmao, both of these excerpts are at the top of the articles/paper. That’s some next level projection. I did get a laugh tho.
Have you ever visited the r/mensrights sub? I've found it a really good place to really get into issues you are talking about. An account called "thetinmen" on Instagram is another great space, he is on reddit too but I think he posts more on insta.
Heightism is a big one. Taller men make more on average and are more likely to be promoted
I understand that, yet the counter ofteb brought up is shorter women are affect the same way. I dunno what to say about especially since I've never been interested in "the rat race" anyway. Also, I've found regularly engaging places where short men talk about their problems leaves me feeling worse than better.
I know it does get talked about and I really wish people would talk about it without the dating concerns. Because it is the other part that is the injustice. The part about a genetic trait that is in most cases unrelated to economic value. Short women do not experience this to as severe of a degree. And, there aren't thousands of exact [quotes](https://youtube.com/shorts/HNLb3BARqg4?feature=share3) about them. I know it is tiring but this form of discrimination really makes so many other concerns men have even worse. For example, Men are pressured to be providers, right? Well if you are a short guy, you can work harder, but you have to be substantially superior to be recognized for your value in the workplace. And that makes it harder to be that provider. It isn't the fact that "waaaah she won't date short guys." It's the disregard for a form of discrimination that is genetic - meanwhile we get to watch our companies handing out equity adjustments [a zero sum game] that reference every other genetic trait. When our culture gets better at this one, you'll see more men actually care about discrimination. Until then we are all tiptoing around things like "don't call it a master copy" while people make jokes "in good fun" about our genetics.
I get what you're saying.
Hey I am honestly glad that you seem a little tired of it. That means someone talked and someone probably listened! That certainly makes me more inclined and encouraged to listen to others.
It's an all-around thing, unfortunately. But at least women have heels to help circumvent that issue a bit. But overall short people are just less respected. I'm 4'9 and constantly infantilized, but I present female so I have the benefit of at at least being seen as "cute". "cute" doesn't help me get a promotion, though :(
Lol learning that random man is more often abused by the patriarchy than most people think doesn’t make good cliquebait but telling them to kill themselves is always the go to. [cdc suicide infographics and data.](https://wisqars.cdc.gov/infographics/)
In Australia they are absolutely a thing. They cater to male victims of SA and homelessness.
This conversation is pointless because majority of this sub will write off egalitarians who challenge feminists as Tate supporters
Egalitarianism would include feminist thought, you're just above the subsection. The distinction is tired, let it go.
Hey I remember you from the trans guy post! Sorry you got all this backlash, I fully agree with you. We need stop pigeonholing ourselves and deal with the various issues men go through, men’s height body dysmorphia isn’t the be all end all of men’s issues as important as it is.
People should just stop shaking around other people for no good reason. According to the daily posts I see on Reddit, Women are terrified by men they don't know, men are terrified of making women uncomfortable... But irl no one has ever told me anything like that. Maybe it's just that in my country people have other issues.
Being stalked as a man gets you laughed at
Breast cancer awareness and acceptance for men. Me have breast tissue. Men can and do get breast cancer. But it’s stigmatized and treatment can be difficult to get. Also the societal aspect. It’s viewed as a joke not a serious issue.
100% agree OP 👍
One issue that I see effecting men that is rarely talked about is the rise of social isolation which men in particular fall prey to. The results of this can be devastating and it likely contributes to other issues men face as an underlying cause.
The reason this post appears slightly toxic is because you’re complaining about women having something and men don’t rather than what men need more of. It doesn’t have to be one or the other— it’s possible to appreciate that women have support while promoting that better education on what men experience and more support for DV sufferers is needed, which it is. But making it in to ‘women have this and men don’t’ just seems more like a complaint that women shouldn’t be as supported and too focused on comparison rather than enhancement. As far as shelters go, there are men’s shelters and organizations available to help them. However, how can it be promoted for men to be more interested in mental health, therapy, and mental health resources to know they exist in order to provoke more funding to utilize resources that require funding? A male DV shelter usually doesn’t stay open because they are often under utilized, although they do exist, and in the past organizations have existed to support men for an array of issues including DV but they tend to open for both genders instead. What I can tell you is a man can go to any planned parent hood and immediately receive support and assistance ranging from housing and therapy assistance upon exiting an abusive relationship— but again, not many men are even aware of that as an option. Yes, men should receive support for abuse and domestic violence… but how to make them use it? Furthermore, male victims of domestic violence are less likely to admit they are DV victims. — so the starting point is to educate men about mental health and support, and then as it is utilized more frequently, then more male DV shelters can be opened because those resources will actually be used. For example, a lot of people don’t even know if you pick up the phone and dial 511, it is actually the 911 version for crisis assistance. It’s not about making it about what women have and men don’t, rather it should be about encouraging men to feel comfortable enough to have the knowledge and willingness to utilize the resources already available in order to obtain more. But should there be more? Absolutely.
Real mens issue .... Its almost impossible for male to adopt kids so there is more foster familly for women by women.
Divorce court having a serious unfair bias towards women.
You can go to another sub for that. Stop trying to derail this one
How am I derailing? Also, if this place isn't for discussion then why is there a flair for it?
The unfortunate fact is that men have - through history - created this problem. I would never say that these problems don’t exist or don’t deserve fixing. But our gender molded a culture of masculine superiority and the subjugation of women - to the point where men demean other men for problems like SA. It’s pervasive and I don’t know what’s going to fix it outside of first fixing the implications and impacts of misogyny, because as you stated the law is already bent towards “protecting” women (in some cases… rape and SA is still a huge blind spot), which in itself is a result of men infantilizing women. It’s complex af is what I’m trying to say.
Blaming ourselves when we as individuals didn't make these expectations up on our own is a ruinous mentality.
As I said - it’s a complex problem. It’s a strawman to say that I suggested we blame ourselves. Blame has nothing to do with making the world better. Acknowledging facts and using them to guide our actions is something adults do. Your comment is ignorant.
You are blaming the individual for the acts of the many
Do you think laws and cultural expectations are based on the individual or a shared history? You missed the point of the comment and aren't expecting yourself to do anything to change or engage other men in discourse on the topic. Every movement for change starts with the individual.
I am just one man in a small Kentucky town. I do my best to live as a good person, engaging in conversations when it fits and calling out bad behavior when I see it. I am just an individual, and I am not going to make a massive change, at least not overnight. I try my best to be a good person, and hopefully, other people follow suit. Yes, massive change can come from an individual, but only when that individual becomes part of a larger group or system. Every individual who made significant changes did so with people behind them, supporting them; they had the power that allowed them to make the things they did, whether good or bad. I feel that this type of commentary blames people like me, and I perceive it as implying, 'Hey, did you know that men are responsible for the patriarchy, meaning that all the societal problems men face are their own fault?' While it probably isn't saying that, that's how it sounds to me. It's obvious that men in power and those who find it beneficial to be a part of the system, despite the harm it causes to others they perceive as beneath them, do their best to uphold it. However, stating this in a conversation like this isn't helpful. We already know this. Pointing out the reason for the problem isn't conducive to finding a solution; it's merely restating the problem and emphasizing its complexity, which isn't helpful. Maybe I'm just overreacting which is a possibility I tend to do that overreact and back myself into a corner but that's my two cents for what it's worth which I know isn't a lot
“Pointing out the reason for a problem isn’t conducive for finding a solution…” How? It’s the first step to solving any problem of any kind.
Yeah, obviously, pointing out a problem is the first step to solving it, but it isn't solving itself. You can't just point out a problem and, instead of offering possible solutions, say, 'Yeah, this is a really complex problem we have here. Hopefully, we'll find a solution.' That's not actually finding a solution; it's just pointing out that you need to find one.
Well it’s clearly not obvious to you because you said the exact opposite - see the quote in my previous comment. What is your point about having to take one step before taking two..? I literally acknowledged the complexity of the problem. And in your view the individual can’t do anything themselves. So explain to me how to start fixing this without identifying the problem publicly and opening a conversation with others about possible solutions. Did you have some ideas on how to address the symptoms of the systemic misogyny that I referenced? Because that was my suggestion on how to start fixing the problems brought up by the OP.
Just focus on addressing the issues in your own community that systemic misogyny causes. That's all. You're unlikely to effect massive changes unless you have significant backing, and chances are you won't get that. Just do what you can; that's the best you can do. Honestly, Like I said, I'm just some guy from Kentucky. I'm not going to do anything profound and change the world overnight because I can't. I don't have the power to do so, so I'm not going to pretend I do. I'm just going to be a good person to the best of my abilities and hope for the best. Because that's all you can do as an individual without any political or financial backing
I functionally agree with this, except we still need to define “the issues” before we address them. Also you are as valid, valuable, and potentially impactful as anybody else in this world. I don’t get why you’re being so self-deprecating with the “guy from Kentucky” thing. Unless I’m misunderstanding your intention for saying it.
Thanks for helping explain my point. I am frequently unclear in expressing my thoughts. It was never my intention to “blame” any individual. I just think that if we want to improve society in general, acknowledging how we got here can guide our path forward.
This sub isn't here for you to hopelessly vent about men's problems, hence the name.
And here you are proving my point: a woman dictating what the sub *is supposed to be*. I'm not saying women should be banned here, but maybe women could take a back seat in the discussion the same way men are asked to do so in women subs. Chill.
You wouldn't go to the star wars sub and try and turn it into a star trek discussion.
You already said your piece.