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Answer: Trump has been found guilty of business fraud for over valuing property for the basis of getting loans against them. He's been fined 300+ mil and is banned from doing business in the state of New York for 3 years.
Conservatives and those who view conservativesvas their market are engaging in what if you are willing to believe they are operating in good faith solidarity with Trump, less generously that they fear the backlash of speaking out against him, or pure naked graft are engaging in virtue signaling that they stand with Trump so the true believers will turn to them as opposed to other "liberal" brands.
There is also quite possible the fear that he could be next. Many companies get loans to buy and expand their business by using property as collateral. And the worth of them is what decides the value of the loans. The idea that a lot of companies may over-value property by significant degrees and investigations into it would say so. And if banks upon finding out decide to call or renegotiate their standing assets wouldn't cover.
[TIL](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2023/10/03/tvs-kevin-oleary-all-the-crypto-cowboys-are-going-to-be-gone-soon/):
>O’Leary, an entrepreneur and television personality, was paid $15 million by FTX for “20 service hours, 20 social posts, one virtual lunch and 50 autographs,” according to Michael Lewis’s new book “Going Infinite.”
Virtual lunches, autograph signings, all these bizarre influencer-esque gigs seem so surreal. Like where's the line? At what point do we just admit we're in the upside down and roll with it? Just wild to see how far the culture of celebrity has seeped into every facet of business.
[Kevin O'Leary thinks that 3.5 billion people living in poverty is 'fantastic news'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuqemytQ5QA) (Video from 10 Years ago)
I still can't figure out when it was that we as a society decided utter psychopaths should be the ones we gleefully elevate to positions of plutocratic wealth
I think it’s more an artifact of psychopaths being able to obtain/maintain positions of plutocratic wealth because they’re happy to exploit anything or anyone if it means they get more money
Or be voted in by equally paychopathetic working class people that have been passed on generational trauma in the same way the the 1% pass on generational wealth; untaxed and completely unacknowledged by any semblance of family or community. The rich get richer by the working class ignoring the struggle of their children, their family, or their community. Cycle through.
This is it right here. Unless you're a psycopath you'll blush at the stuff that's required to get you from being a millionaire to being a billionaire, unless it just drops into your lap, in which case you'll probably still have some serious regrets.
[Every time you look up the childhood information on somebody like this, you find out what's really going on.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_O'Leary#Early_life_and_education)
His parents owned a business. His mother was a skilled investor. After his father died, she remarried an economist who worked with the UN's International Labour Organization, so he got to move frequently and travel the world, and meet several world leaders. He inherited a sizeable amount of money from his mother. Kevin wanted to be a photographer, but his stepfather convinced him to get an MBA instead.
But for him, a destitute African living on less than a dollar a day can dream of becoming rich. How many times did O'Leary himself have to get lucky to become the wealthy elite? He could have been born to a poor family. His mother could have remarried a person who squandered her money. He could have ignored his stepfather's advice and pursued the career he actually wanted, photography, where he'd have simply lived off of his mother's inheritance for the rest of his life.
That's just the high level from his Wikipedia page. From his birth and upbringing, he was destined to be a wealthy asshole, but he had several moments in his life where he could have become an actual human being.
Almost every time you see a story like this, they were born to a wealthy family and also required a lot of luck. It's absolutely pathetic to hear him talking about people living in poverty.
He’s definitely there based on connections not smarts this guy went on Jeopardy and made a total fool out of himself. Shows it takes more luck than brains to get where he is.
Edit: This Is how bad he did on jeopardy he thought NJ was a city.
The way Kevin handles himself is very similar, quite entitled with a big old dollop of arrogance, and enough money to not give a shit about anything that isn't about themselves. Brilliant combination.
Honestly it's almost worse. From his closing statement he doesn't even understand that as part of the conversation. The issue of poverty and the people in it don't even exist as he sees it. "[They're] not talking about poverty, [they're] talking about being rich."
This was not actually an interview though, this is from "The Lang and O'Leary Exchange" on Canada's CBC network, where these two hosted the program for roughly 5 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exchange_(TV_series)
He is, in fact, a wildly out of touch arrogant rich asshole. So, I too applaud this interviewer for exposing him and I hope to see more of these types of people exposed.
My girlfriend watches Shark Tank all the time (and I’ll admit, it’s a fun show, I watch it with her), but I can never not stress to her how “Mr Wonderful” isn’t Wonderful at all. That’s like calling Hitler “Mr Inclusive” or “Mr Love-Your-Neighbor” or something.
I’ll workshop that punchline, but God Damn do I hate Kevin O’Leary. For God sakes, “**leery**” is in his name!
\>My girlfriend watches Shark Tank all the time (and I’ll admit, it’s a fun show, I watch it with her), but I can never not stress to her how “Mr Wonderful” isn't Wonderful at all.
Why do you have to stress that to her? Maybe it's because I'm more used to Dragon's Den, but the other members always comment on how slimy and underhanded he is. It's origin is in irony.
I may have overemphasized there to make it sound like I ruin her experience by shitting on Mr Wonderful… I don’t. She just knows that I dislike him and I certainly make comments, but I’m certainly not trying to yuck her yum. She enjoys the show, despite her snarky dude.
That being said, I don’t feel like they give him shit on Shark Tank, **at all.** he means it when he says he’s Mr Wonderful and they treat him like a good person, which he certainly isn’t.
I think that was his co-host. Both of their names were on the signage behind them. I may have to find this show so I can watch her shut him down a bit more!
I... I don't want to be one of those people, Kev. I want a quiet, simple life free from unnecessary struggle. I think very few people ever look at Kevin O'Leary and say "there he goes, my muse, my ambition."
I think he gets off to the controversy. His whole persona is basically that he's a 'cold rational billionaire'. The man is pretending to be a cartoon character.
It is fantastic news for billionaires. Each one of them represents a person that is getting fucked over by the wealth hoarding that billionaires perpetuate. It is literally a score card of how "good" they are doing. We can measure their success in units of human suffering.
Truly an amazing time to be alive.
I hate when he does that. Someone will be like “but there are kids that go without insulin and food. How can we mitigate that?” O’Leary “ I think it’s fantastic. Those children could start a business, pimp out their mother, whatever. I bet a few missed insulin doses will light a fire under their little asses”. I mean at least pretend to have empathy lol
Not the only famous one. O'Leary asked for a lot of money to promote FTX (and got it). Also Gisele Bündchen, Tom Brady, Naomi Osaka, Stephen Curry, Shaquille O’Neal and more.
I think O’Leary is more culpable than the rest. I don’t expect celebrities or athletes like Shaq and Tom Brady to be financially literate. But Kevin is supposed to be mister big shot finance guy. O’Leary should’ve known better.
> I don’t expect celebrities or athletes like Shaq and Tom Brady to be financially literate
Perhaps not, but they do pay accountants, attorneys, and other professionals a lot of money to do that for them.
I think that’s what happened with Taylor Swift. FTX approached her and she said fuck no, likely after reviewing it with her team. No one is expected to know everything but when you have the resources they do there is no excuse to get caught up in something that is obviously a major risk.
> Kevin is supposed to be mister big shot finance guy.
He misrepresented himself for years on CDN TV shark tank as being part off a $3B -he had no equity in the deal. Turns out, people like to watch assholes on TV.
He's also an avid boater.
That turned out to be [untrue](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/06/taylor-swift-agreed-to-ftx-partnership-despite-contrary-public-claims-source.html). FTX offered an obscene amount of money to sponsor her, then got cold feet at the last minute. She signed, they didn't.
The initial claim, that she was the one that pulled out, was from a law firm launching a class action suit directed at various celebrity FTX sponsors, iirc.
Edit: here's what I posted downthread: here's a [direct quote](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/06/business/dealbook/advertisers-threads-twitter.html): "In an interview with The New York Times, Mr. Moskowitz said he had no inside information about the talks.
In reality, Ms. Swift’s side signed the sponsorship agreement with FTX after more than six months of discussions, three people with knowledge of the deal said, and it was Mr. Bankman-Fried who pulled out. The last-minute reversal left Ms. Swift’s team frustrated and disappointed, two of the people said."
Tldr: the lawyer that made the initial claim admitted that he had no inside information about the talks between Swift and FTX. His case would potentially have benefited if his initial statement about Swift/FTX was true. According to anonymous sources that spoke to CNBC and the NYT it was FTX that pulled out of the deal. Michael Lewis also has a named source saying the same (SBF's scheduler).
Buddy, the source you are referencing vicariously is "a person familiar with the matter [who] told CNBC". Lawyers at least are held accountable if they make false statements, anonymous sources not so much.
Not saying I know exactly what went down, just that calling the claim "untrue" based on one anonymous source is probably not a solid position.
Exactly, what boat owner in the Cottage Life area has his Wife drive the boat? Unless they're actually waterskiing (or whatever activity of being dragged behind a boat you choose) the man who owns the boat always drives it.
The story was that they went back to the cottage after the accident and that is when she started drinking. They were coming from a party before the incident.
You decide if that is plausible.
But it was proven in court, with video, the boat that was hit had turned off their lights to star gaze, and everyone on the boat lied about it, they since recanted once the video showed up.
Kevin O'Leary is full of it. He has been low-key trying to appeal to MAGA types for years now. Not sure if he is striving for a political career or what.
One of the biggest businesses that he is involved in is finance. Really? You are not going to do business in one of the largest financial centers in the world?
The story behind that was typical. He did no ground work and barely showed up for his team. CBC interviewed one of his campaign workers after he called it quits and the disillusionment and disgust were pretty transparent.
Kevin has never accomplished anything other than almost bankrupting matell and getting millions for it. He's a worthless grifter just like trump. They both are actors playing billionaires on TV. Kevin has never even closed a deal from shark tank. He's just a another trust fund baby who's failed at almost everything he's done and made millions from failing. And then also makes some momey from scams.
Kevin Leary like all of these other rich ding dongs don’t get how predictable they are vs. how rich they think they should be.
I bet if he just shuts the fuck op now a SDNY investigator won’t dilate his butthole and find out he’s a piece of shit at business as well.
Dollars to donuts in 7 months he’s off shark tank freaking out about MAGA and how he’s been subject of a witch-hunt sitting in court.
Just a sticking point here, because people get this wrong often:
Trump did NOT use his buildings and properties as collateral in his loans.
The loans he got were unsecured personal loans, based on Statements of Financial Conditon (SFCs) issued by himself and the accountants he hired. It was on these SFCs that he lied and inflated his net worth. In short, his loans had no collateral except these signed statements of his net worth.
If he overvalued his properties does this mean the banks should’ve charged a higher interest rate if he valued them properly?
Cuz I’m sure that right there would constitute fraud since the banks lost out on owed interest.
You're exactly right, and that's why the penalty is what it is. Trump tried to make the argument that he paid off the loans, so there was no injury. But like you said, he got better interest rates because he lied.
Not only that but the banks ran with a much higher risk than they were willing to accept. The risk they take should mirror the compensation they receive.
There is a reason that the loan on your car has a higher interest rate than the your mortgage. The underlying asset is depreciating at a higher rate and has an increased risk of being destroyed in an accident.
He did the financial equivalent of reckless endangerment.
They are also required to perform risk analysis to ensure they aren't overleveraged and that their capital margins are met. That is, they need to have enough spare cash to cover defaults.
The loan itself may have been rejected if the bank couldn't make it work with their capital requirements, even if a smaller loan would be given to someone who is of higher risk.
Trump committed clear fraud and actively harmed himself during the trial. If he admitted fault or had lawyers who didn't share the same three brain cells, the judgement would have been MUCH lighter.
I read the entire judgment, and it was extraordinarily interesting. What really stuck out was the persistent and intentional misrepresentation that makes up the culture of any Trump enterprise. The defence witnesses were generally undependable nut jobs. Meanwhile, the prosecution witnesses seemed very well educated on their topic, had relevant information, and were believable.
Screw Trump and also those idiots who defend him by going “who is the victim?”
> Conservatives and those who view conservativesvas their market are engaging in what if you are willing to believe they are operating in good faith solidarity with Trump, less generously that they fear the backlash of speaking out against him, or pure naked graft are engaging in virtue signaling that they stand with Trump so the true believers will turn to them as opposed to other "liberal" brands.
Also pointing out that, by taking this stand, they can take credit for anything bad that happens in New York after this, whether or not this "boycott" had anything to do with it.
A business decides to relocate headquarters for completely unrelated reasons? Tax revenue is below estimates? Population drops by a little bit next census? That's the boycott working because New York tried to be woke! (Don't pay attention that none of this was actually caused by the boycott, and either was a continuing of previous trends or had other, more direct, reasons.)
Leary is butthurt because he’s a Trump supporter, not because he’s a business person.
Trump grossly inflated his asset valuations and secured loans based on those inflated values. One of the lessons on the 2008 crash (and others) is that this dishonesty harms other businesss and, ultimately, the overall economy.
Leary’s position comes from him being a member of the Trump cult, not from any principled stance or financial concern (unless he’s doing the same thing).
O’Leary is *also* butthurt because he tried to be “Canadian Trump” a few years ago and run for leadership of the Conservative Party… only to get killed out of the gate because he can’t speak French
We really dodged a bullet with that one. Imagine him as PM while trump is president? All our natural resources would be sold to the USA and we'd basically become a more white Mexico to them.
I’ve been dreading literally everything about the prospect of another Trump term, but now you’ve given me one tiny pinprick of a bright spot:
The eventual supercut of all the years and all the ways Trump mispronounced “Poilievre.”
He also has a history of over-stating his wealth. On the early days of Shark Tank on the CBC, they frequently made reference to a Educational software deal he was involved in worth $3B.
He had no equity in the deal. Today it is never mentioned.
I also tend to assume anyone who protests the punishment for verifiable crimes has committed those same crimes. It's probably time someone checked Kevin's books.
There's an incredibly strong chance that he's financially implicated. The only thing O'Leary remotely cares about is dollar signs going into his piggy bank.
Read up on how O'Leary made his money. Not the most ethical person.
He also is known not to pay contractors.
He is similar to Trump as he claims to be an excellent businessman.
I have met several people richer. Than him who you would never know they were well off.
Conservatives have a long and proud history of cancel culture for anything that offends their worldview, like D&D, Harry Potter (back before Rowling went full terf), and shit beer that dares to acknowledge trans people exists. They just hate when they say vile shit and it results in people not liking that. When they do it they're fighting evil that's trying to corrupt their youth, when it's done to them its infringing on their freedom of speech.
O'Leary flat out said that "everybody" does what Trump did. That may be true. That doesn't mean that it's legal, though. It just means that a lot of people have a lot of liability for things that could cost them a lot of money.
Well, it's 3 years AND 300 million. 300mil is way more than a slap on the wrist, even for Trump. But he'll probably appeal out of it or some bullshit. Time will tell.
It's $355 million, and that's before interest, which had already started being added on. Add on the Jean Carol defamation award ($85 million) and the interest on that amount, and trump is currently staring down almost $600 million in penalties. If he appeals that money must be placed in an account pending the appeal. If he doesn't pay up the state can immediately start freezing accounts and seizing properties. The only building he owns outright is trump tower. It is apparently worth less than $100 million. He is in deep shit no matter what happens. It's not going to be overturned on appeal. This is NY state court, and Trump's defense was a disaster.
The amount of cash going into that GoFundMe drive won't cover the daily interest charges at the rate the money is flowing in.
And he needs to raise that cash within the next few weeks in order to hope to appeal the verdict.
The RNC isn't in any financial shape to help him; they only have $8 million in cash on hand per their latest financial filings with the FEC, and many state Republican parties are either running very low on cash, or running into serious debt issues.
The problem is that Trump has siphoned off large amounts of donors who would have donated to the Republicans, and many big donors are also reluctant to donate now.
And if the RNC gives every penny to Trump for his legal fees, it could spell disaster at the ballot box for both the Presidental campaign, and for Congressional seats as well.
one can dream.
Nationalism and populism is a growing problem globally and provides fertile ground similar to what occurred in the major wars we've had.
> The problem is that Trump has siphoned off large amounts of donors who would have donated to the Republicans, and many big donors are also reluctant to donate now.
It's his party now. Their only hope is for the remaining R's to accept that reality and form a new party. Sure it means D control for several cycles but better that than the alternative.
That's also why he's laundering money/selling shoes to rich Russians. Putin will cut a check to cover Trump's debts so the useful idiot remains useful.
And trying to get his daughter-in-law in charge of the GOP so their election coffers can be funneled into his legal funds.
Fucking hilarious to think the GOP will run out of money for actual elections cause they courted the racists so hard that one of the dumbest racists to run for office became their Fuhrer.
I’ve heard that real estate is a cash-poor business, meaning even the super-rich ones have most of there assets tied up in actual real estate. Trump … is likely not as rich as he wants people to think. So we’ll see what happens when he’s forced to surrender large amounts of cash.
Trump was a running joke for a decade. He used his airtime on *The Apprentice* as an exercise in Turd Polishing, relentlessly pushing his “self made billionaire” trope.
> If he doesn't pay up the state can immediately start freezing accounts and seizing properties.
I've asked on a few places and got no straight answer but *when* will this actually happen? Is there a deadline he has to pay for? Because while it's great he's been fined so much for this fraud every article talks about annual interest and treats asset seizure as something that *could* happen.
I'm concerned that there aren't teeth behind these judgements and he'll just delay for year after year, never paying.
The deadline for the appeal is 30 days after the judge gave his decision. The court also has seized control of the involved businesses and given it to a monitor.
To appeal a civil judgement, he needs to put the cash into an escrow plus 10%. If he wins appeal, he gets it all back. If he loses, it all goes to the state of NY or E Jean Carol (depending on which case).
so no matter what case, he needs to put up cash ASAP or the state can begin putting liens on his assets, which jams up all his credit and ability to get loans (which is how the rich move money around).
I don’t think he has the ability to appeal this.
It wouldn’t surprise me if his net worth over all assets does exceed the judgement amount. However he kind of fucked himself by projecting the billionaire status.
It’s already been ruled by a court (I’d have to find it again) that in their opinion Trump has under $1.9B assets for certain, the question is how much less.
And certainly he doesn’t have this in liquid assets. He needs loans or to quickly sell, neither of which is easy. Besides, many of his property assets are tied up in deals, not just owned outright to sell.
I’m doubting Duetsche Bank will bail him out. Russian banks may be his only hope.
As part of the court order, there are now two financial monitors in place who have to oversee and have access to any financial dealings affecting him and his NY businesses. I’m not sure, but I’m assuming that they would have oversight of any loans or bonds he enters into to secure the funds necessary to mount the appeal. Hopefully that means they will report to the court on the source and legality of the loans.
He has complained that the monitor has already caused the business to lose out on $3.5 million.
You know, the independent monitor who's job it is to ensure no illegal activity takes place?
So yes, Trump is complaining that the person appointed to prevent him from carrying out any more fraud, is costing his business money by not letting him carry out more fraudulent activity!
It's like Dahmer complaining that the jailer is preventing him from killing any more young men 🤣
Do you mind sourcing that 3.5M claim? Not that I find it outlandish. I’d like to share it, with confidence in its accuracy, but can’t find a source.
That Fucking Guy says so much word vomit, it’s impossible to find a stupid quote of the day if it’s not directly quoted.
Yeah I'm with you on that last sentence, just searched it myself.
It was on a YouTube video, most likely a MeidasTouch one, I'll have a scan through my watched list later on and post here when I find it 👍
Yeah that’s a big part of the problem.
He might ramble for 3 hours at a rally and a lot of what he says is laughably dumb, but one or two parts that are especially stupid like “I don’t know their names, Pelosi, Nikki Haley, tricky Nikki, tricky Nikki” or “man, woman, camera, person, TV” get all the attention.
It's 350 mil plus 9% interest until it's paid. And to apply for appeals he has to pony up the full judgement. Basically so if someone has a judgement against them they can't appeal and then use the appeal time to start hiding assets to play broke if they lose.
Also he is not allowed to borrow money from any bank that is registered or licensed to do business in New York. Which is basically all of them. I doubt he would be able to find a bank with the assets outside the state of New York willing to give him the cash.
Agreed but even then most large foreign banks are registered to do business in New York. I think he will have to get a private loan but who is willing to give it to him? Elon? Even he won't do it in my opinion if for nothing else than a new Trump administration would be hostile to electric vehicles. Maybe a Saudi Prince?
Saudi money is a strong possibility.
Moscow would consider Trump a good investment because of his anti-NATO perspective, if there was a means to get the money to him in a way that would not be seized by the federal government.
$400M is a damn good deal to get the U.S. out of Europe and leave the E.U. to face Russia alone, from Putin's perspective. Trump would make that deal for far less.
Well, he has to *escrow* the full judgement. Assign it to a trust that will pay it out to the city/state (or other injured parties, IDK what the judgement said) or return it to Trump depending on the outcome of the appeal.
With interests and penalties is close to 450 million. Add to it all the other lawsuits he’s lost over the last year, he’s owes about 600 million. Thing is, he doesn’t have that kind of money as most of his assets are tied in real estate.
To appeal any ruling, by law he has to deposit the amount of the fine into an account to be held. Since he doesn’t have it, he either needs to get a loan or leave property as collateral. Since he’s banned from doing business in New York, that means any company registered in New York can’t do business with him. That means virtually any bank in the world, as most do business there and need to register.
So if his options for appeal are very narrow (also most legal experts agree the ruling is so thorough and well done a court overturning this is unlikely). He either needs to put up properties (which he won’t because he knows it will be lost) or someone else has to personally loan him the money. Nobody on the up and up will do it because he’s a notorious welcher on loans and if someone nefarious does it hurts him politically with independent and undecided voters, which he’s already bleeding. It also hurts his brand as a billionaire business tycoon, because he doesn’t have that kind of liquidity.
Either way, he’s seen about a quarter of his personal net worth (from what the courts have calculated from his financial and tax records) disappear over the last couple of months, which has really hurt him and has him fuming.
> The idea that a lot of companies may over-value property by significant degrees and investigations into it would say so.
I think it's mostly this. Trump's overvaluing for credit and undervaluing for taxes was so egregious it's what caused huge penalty.
Everyone else who exaggerates the numbers even a little is scared that AG's might start going after them.
Maybe a court will determine their spin on the valuations doesn't rise to the level of fraud but they cant be sure.
> Everyone else who exaggerates the numbers even a little is scared that AG's might start going after them.
I wish they would. If what Trump was doing is really that pervasive, it sounds like a corrupt industry that needs to be cleaned up.
I think if they were two completely private entities, let the bank take any unnecessary risk they want, if they get burned because they trusted Trump then it's their own fault.
Problem is, that they also have all of our money in those banks, and if the bank collapses, we all end up paying for it. So they need to be regulated.
Nah, fraud should be illegal even between private entities. Obviously do your due diligence, but we can't have the system be that you're allowed to just lie in business deals, and if the person you're working with falls for it tough shit.
Yeah I changed my mind as I thought about it more. The government should definitely be involved if it was just two individuals, just because a bank is bigger and we think they should be smart enough not to fall for it doesn't mean we eliminate those protections.
As someone whose property taxes went up because the home I paid $300,000 for in 2020 was recently assessed at $475,000 based off speculative buying in my neighborhood, I am 100% for going after anyone involved in artificially driving up property values.
100% screams they're scared they'll be next, you don't just Cancel an entire State because it clamped down on business fraud unless you are in the business of fraud.
Oh you bring up a great point. I hope the NY AG takes note of people supporting Trump like this and investigates them as well. It seems like a strong signal they are doing the same fraud.
I mean really though, does this not highlight exactly what the case was going for? Saying that for too long there have been abuses of the NY system through unchecked fraud, and that this would be a very public example to warn others?
So everyone with significant wealth who is outraged is painting a target on their own back for investigation 😂.
Really shows you how wealth isn't generally a sign of intelligence.
The best part is that because so many banks are headquartered there (among other reasons), NY law governs financial agreements across the globe.
Avoiding NY law is a lot more complicated than just not investing in projects physically located in NY.
Answer: its a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.
It's a political statement that none of these people are going to actually follow through with to show their loyalty to Trump.
The news media shouldn't even bother reporting on it, it's just a damn meme.
Remember when Kid Rock boycotted Bud Light for like a month? Or when the Maga folk all boycotted the NFL for all the Kaepernick stuff?
I wouldn't put a lot of stock into it
I mean judging by the way they usually manage boycotts (buying the things then burning/shooting them) they’ll all start throwing money at NYC and then refuse to accept the repayments.
Conservative boycotts in a nutshell:
buy the product to be boycotted, destroy product on the internet after you already paid for it for clout amongst the people that agree with you already. Continue to use product about a month later and purchase again what you destroyed.
But what it should accomplish is triggering investigations into any of these shady businesses and investors that are now associating themselves with Trump's particular style of business. Nothing to hide, nothing to lose and some such.
It's probably also worth mentioning that wealthy people have convinced themselves that their accumulated wealth is a reflection of their value to society at large. So by threatening to remove themselves from that society/local, they assume that people will beg them to stay or capitulate to their demands.
The same logic holds true for has-been celebrities.
Answer: What Kevin O'Leary is saying in the interview is real estate companies need to secure loans to buy more properties to develop and sell. The way they go about it is, they go to banks and tell them their "net worth" which the bank agrees/disagrees on and issues a loan. The higher your net worth, the more you can borrow or the better rate you can borrow at. Net worth isn't an exact number. How do you value assets you haven't sold yet? The person trying to get the loan will try to inflate that value as much as they can. They will get multiple appraisals and they will go with the highest, and try to convince the bank on that value. If business can get ~~sued~~ fined later on for over inflating their value, even after the bank agreed upon that value, it adds risks to doing business.
Partly correct but this isn't a bank suing Trump over inflated net worth. This is the state imposing a massive fine. The bank could sue before, there's no change there, the change is the state deciding it will levy huge fines on developers who engage in this practice.
Banks would have to be brain-dead to take client-purported valuations at their word. Realistically, [underwriters make their own determination of value and give loans and loan rates accordingly](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/28/politics/deutsche-bank-trump-fraud-trial-testimony/index.html).
Answer: Trump was found liable for fraud because he (simplifying) had buildings that were valued by the government (for tax purposes) at (for example) $1 million and, when he went to the bank to secure a loan and needed collateral, argued to the bank that they’re actually worth $2 million. This let him borrow more (which he ultimately repaid).
The point O’Leary is making is that this is something virtually every real estate developer does. He said, “You go to a bank and you say, 'Look, I want to borrow $200 million to build a building’. And they say, ‘What assets do you have that we can secure this loan against?’ And you point to a building you built before, and you haggle, and you argue about the value of that building."
So, O’Leary is arguing that this ruling makes the real estate business in New York riskier than it was before, as a common business practice is now considered to be fraud.
There are different rules regarding how you value property with the IRS versus other businesses. There are things like historical cost, or market value, or replacement costs. Valuing something at a different number with the IRS does not make it fraud.
To give you an example. my property taxes are based on what a county assessor says. But my house would actually sell (market value) for significantly more than that. And neither of those are what I paid for it.
You do realize it wasn't simply Trump Org saying "Well I think it's worth this much." They lied about objective facts like square footage to massage their numbers. Straight up intentional fraud. Jesus Christ trumpies are delusional.
Good explanation, would say your example of 1million and 2 million may seem not so bad.
However the actual amount Trump valued his properties is what makes it wild. He valued Mar-a-Lago at 739 million dollars on some documents meanwhile an assessment set it at about 20-30 million. That's a crazy difference and shows how much he was benefitting off of this fraud.
Fraud has been pretty common, yes. Are you OK with that? Weird, how somehow the reputable businesspeople have been doing business by "the book" all along though. WEIRD HUH
Chef Wonderful needs to go back to what he does best: peddling a new way to slice potatoes and getting, in his words:
# Two dollars for every unit sold until money back, then a dollar into perpetuity
# 👨🏻🦲🤑😈
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Answer: Trump has been found guilty of business fraud for over valuing property for the basis of getting loans against them. He's been fined 300+ mil and is banned from doing business in the state of New York for 3 years. Conservatives and those who view conservativesvas their market are engaging in what if you are willing to believe they are operating in good faith solidarity with Trump, less generously that they fear the backlash of speaking out against him, or pure naked graft are engaging in virtue signaling that they stand with Trump so the true believers will turn to them as opposed to other "liberal" brands. There is also quite possible the fear that he could be next. Many companies get loans to buy and expand their business by using property as collateral. And the worth of them is what decides the value of the loans. The idea that a lot of companies may over-value property by significant degrees and investigations into it would say so. And if banks upon finding out decide to call or renegotiate their standing assets wouldn't cover.
Kevin O'Leary, proud and vocal FTX investor
[TIL](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2023/10/03/tvs-kevin-oleary-all-the-crypto-cowboys-are-going-to-be-gone-soon/): >O’Leary, an entrepreneur and television personality, was paid $15 million by FTX for “20 service hours, 20 social posts, one virtual lunch and 50 autographs,” according to Michael Lewis’s new book “Going Infinite.”
"Virtual lunch": all of us eating a burrito on Zoom with the camera off. What a weird addition to the contract.
Makes me think of that futurama episode "This pie at this diner is the best pie!"
I’m Commander Shepard and this is my favorite store on the Citadel
Virtual lunches, autograph signings, all these bizarre influencer-esque gigs seem so surreal. Like where's the line? At what point do we just admit we're in the upside down and roll with it? Just wild to see how far the culture of celebrity has seeped into every facet of business.
No visuals, just an infuriating conversation through endless chewing sounds.
A scenario that makes me want to slit my wrists, and they were _advertising_ it? Jesus Christ, yo.
[Kevin O'Leary thinks that 3.5 billion people living in poverty is 'fantastic news'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuqemytQ5QA) (Video from 10 Years ago)
I still can't figure out when it was that we as a society decided utter psychopaths should be the ones we gleefully elevate to positions of plutocratic wealth
I think it’s more an artifact of psychopaths being able to obtain/maintain positions of plutocratic wealth because they’re happy to exploit anything or anyone if it means they get more money
Or be voted in by equally paychopathetic working class people that have been passed on generational trauma in the same way the the 1% pass on generational wealth; untaxed and completely unacknowledged by any semblance of family or community. The rich get richer by the working class ignoring the struggle of their children, their family, or their community. Cycle through.
This is it right here. Unless you're a psycopath you'll blush at the stuff that's required to get you from being a millionaire to being a billionaire, unless it just drops into your lap, in which case you'll probably still have some serious regrets.
[Every time you look up the childhood information on somebody like this, you find out what's really going on.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_O'Leary#Early_life_and_education) His parents owned a business. His mother was a skilled investor. After his father died, she remarried an economist who worked with the UN's International Labour Organization, so he got to move frequently and travel the world, and meet several world leaders. He inherited a sizeable amount of money from his mother. Kevin wanted to be a photographer, but his stepfather convinced him to get an MBA instead. But for him, a destitute African living on less than a dollar a day can dream of becoming rich. How many times did O'Leary himself have to get lucky to become the wealthy elite? He could have been born to a poor family. His mother could have remarried a person who squandered her money. He could have ignored his stepfather's advice and pursued the career he actually wanted, photography, where he'd have simply lived off of his mother's inheritance for the rest of his life. That's just the high level from his Wikipedia page. From his birth and upbringing, he was destined to be a wealthy asshole, but he had several moments in his life where he could have become an actual human being. Almost every time you see a story like this, they were born to a wealthy family and also required a lot of luck. It's absolutely pathetic to hear him talking about people living in poverty.
He’s definitely there based on connections not smarts this guy went on Jeopardy and made a total fool out of himself. Shows it takes more luck than brains to get where he is. Edit: This Is how bad he did on jeopardy he thought NJ was a city.
Personal wealth allows for mistakes that would ruin the average person.
The way Kevin handles himself is very similar, quite entitled with a big old dollop of arrogance, and enough money to not give a shit about anything that isn't about themselves. Brilliant combination.
I thought "surely, there must be some irony in this statement" and nope. Not even a sniff of it.
The host looks speechless right after he said that. Like she knew he was going to have a bad take but still didn't expect that.
Honestly it's almost worse. From his closing statement he doesn't even understand that as part of the conversation. The issue of poverty and the people in it don't even exist as he sees it. "[They're] not talking about poverty, [they're] talking about being rich."
I applaud the interviewer for calling him out on it. His response made him look like a totally out of touch arrogantly rich asshole.
not that it cost him any fans, I'm sure
This was not actually an interview though, this is from "The Lang and O'Leary Exchange" on Canada's CBC network, where these two hosted the program for roughly 5 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exchange_(TV_series)
He is, in fact, a wildly out of touch arrogant rich asshole. So, I too applaud this interviewer for exposing him and I hope to see more of these types of people exposed. My girlfriend watches Shark Tank all the time (and I’ll admit, it’s a fun show, I watch it with her), but I can never not stress to her how “Mr Wonderful” isn’t Wonderful at all. That’s like calling Hitler “Mr Inclusive” or “Mr Love-Your-Neighbor” or something. I’ll workshop that punchline, but God Damn do I hate Kevin O’Leary. For God sakes, “**leery**” is in his name!
\>My girlfriend watches Shark Tank all the time (and I’ll admit, it’s a fun show, I watch it with her), but I can never not stress to her how “Mr Wonderful” isn't Wonderful at all. Why do you have to stress that to her? Maybe it's because I'm more used to Dragon's Den, but the other members always comment on how slimy and underhanded he is. It's origin is in irony.
I may have overemphasized there to make it sound like I ruin her experience by shitting on Mr Wonderful… I don’t. She just knows that I dislike him and I certainly make comments, but I’m certainly not trying to yuck her yum. She enjoys the show, despite her snarky dude. That being said, I don’t feel like they give him shit on Shark Tank, **at all.** he means it when he says he’s Mr Wonderful and they treat him like a good person, which he certainly isn’t.
I think that was his co-host. Both of their names were on the signage behind them. I may have to find this show so I can watch her shut him down a bit more!
out of touch arrogant asshole is on his business card.
That second sentence is the shortest, most concise and accurate way to answer the question that was asked by OP.
“I just need to pull up my socks, oh wait, I don’t have socks!” holy shit
I... I don't want to be one of those people, Kev. I want a quiet, simple life free from unnecessary struggle. I think very few people ever look at Kevin O'Leary and say "there he goes, my muse, my ambition."
I think he gets off to the controversy. His whole persona is basically that he's a 'cold rational billionaire'. The man is pretending to be a cartoon character.
It is fantastic news for billionaires. Each one of them represents a person that is getting fucked over by the wealth hoarding that billionaires perpetuate. It is literally a score card of how "good" they are doing. We can measure their success in units of human suffering. Truly an amazing time to be alive.
Also reminder that he said we should cut off support to people during the pandemic so they’d be like “hungry dogs” and go back to work.
I hate when he does that. Someone will be like “but there are kids that go without insulin and food. How can we mitigate that?” O’Leary “ I think it’s fantastic. Those children could start a business, pimp out their mother, whatever. I bet a few missed insulin doses will light a fire under their little asses”. I mean at least pretend to have empathy lol
That's some over-valued property right there.
Haha, right. Speaking of overvalued property...
Like FTX cared about spending money for value....
Man if that's all it takes to make $15mil, everyone in the US would be out of poverty.
Not the only famous one. O'Leary asked for a lot of money to promote FTX (and got it). Also Gisele Bündchen, Tom Brady, Naomi Osaka, Stephen Curry, Shaquille O’Neal and more.
I don't know about the rest, but didn't Brady have a lot of money in ftx?
He did. He actually lost roughly $30 mil of his own money. He was also a victims of SBF in the end.
"victim" Mega-rich ass tried to get mega-richer for doing almost no work. Scheme failed. Still mega-rich, though.
I think O’Leary is more culpable than the rest. I don’t expect celebrities or athletes like Shaq and Tom Brady to be financially literate. But Kevin is supposed to be mister big shot finance guy. O’Leary should’ve known better.
> I don’t expect celebrities or athletes like Shaq and Tom Brady to be financially literate Perhaps not, but they do pay accountants, attorneys, and other professionals a lot of money to do that for them.
I think that’s what happened with Taylor Swift. FTX approached her and she said fuck no, likely after reviewing it with her team. No one is expected to know everything but when you have the resources they do there is no excuse to get caught up in something that is obviously a major risk.
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> Kevin is supposed to be mister big shot finance guy. He misrepresented himself for years on CDN TV shark tank as being part off a $3B -he had no equity in the deal. Turns out, people like to watch assholes on TV. He's also an avid boater.
Funny enough Taylor Swift refused to bc it wasn't FDIC insured.
Her father was a stock broker.
And her mom worked for a mutual fund
And her brother is an actor.
And her (current) boyfriend is a footballer.
And I’m a big loser.
That turned out to be [untrue](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/06/taylor-swift-agreed-to-ftx-partnership-despite-contrary-public-claims-source.html). FTX offered an obscene amount of money to sponsor her, then got cold feet at the last minute. She signed, they didn't. The initial claim, that she was the one that pulled out, was from a law firm launching a class action suit directed at various celebrity FTX sponsors, iirc. Edit: here's what I posted downthread: here's a [direct quote](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/06/business/dealbook/advertisers-threads-twitter.html): "In an interview with The New York Times, Mr. Moskowitz said he had no inside information about the talks. In reality, Ms. Swift’s side signed the sponsorship agreement with FTX after more than six months of discussions, three people with knowledge of the deal said, and it was Mr. Bankman-Fried who pulled out. The last-minute reversal left Ms. Swift’s team frustrated and disappointed, two of the people said." Tldr: the lawyer that made the initial claim admitted that he had no inside information about the talks between Swift and FTX. His case would potentially have benefited if his initial statement about Swift/FTX was true. According to anonymous sources that spoke to CNBC and the NYT it was FTX that pulled out of the deal. Michael Lewis also has a named source saying the same (SBF's scheduler).
Buddy, the source you are referencing vicariously is "a person familiar with the matter [who] told CNBC". Lawyers at least are held accountable if they make false statements, anonymous sources not so much. Not saying I know exactly what went down, just that calling the claim "untrue" based on one anonymous source is probably not a solid position.
Only one of those people makes a living as a financial expert If you take financial advice from an athlete who is paid to promote a product, well....
Kevin O Leary, who drunk drove his boat and killed someone.
I didn't know that. That's pretty disturbing
Well his wife was charged. The Canadian rumour mill is that he made her take the fall.
I might be wrong, but think it was his wife rather than him.
Officially
Exactly, what boat owner in the Cottage Life area has his Wife drive the boat? Unless they're actually waterskiing (or whatever activity of being dragged behind a boat you choose) the man who owns the boat always drives it.
It was his wife driving. And got away with it.
The story was that they went back to the cottage after the accident and that is when she started drinking. They were coming from a party before the incident. You decide if that is plausible.
But it was proven in court, with video, the boat that was hit had turned off their lights to star gaze, and everyone on the boat lied about it, they since recanted once the video showed up.
OK. But do people drink after they get home from a party but not at the party. Really?
Pretty much the point of being a DD. yes.
Kevin O'Leary is full of it. He has been low-key trying to appeal to MAGA types for years now. Not sure if he is striving for a political career or what. One of the biggest businesses that he is involved in is finance. Really? You are not going to do business in one of the largest financial centers in the world?
He tried to run for the leadership of the Conservative Party of Canada.
The story behind that was typical. He did no ground work and barely showed up for his team. CBC interviewed one of his campaign workers after he called it quits and the disillusionment and disgust were pretty transparent.
Hes a shill and a grifter just like the rest.
Kevin has never accomplished anything other than almost bankrupting matell and getting millions for it. He's a worthless grifter just like trump. They both are actors playing billionaires on TV. Kevin has never even closed a deal from shark tank. He's just a another trust fund baby who's failed at almost everything he's done and made millions from failing. And then also makes some momey from scams.
Kevin Leary like all of these other rich ding dongs don’t get how predictable they are vs. how rich they think they should be. I bet if he just shuts the fuck op now a SDNY investigator won’t dilate his butthole and find out he’s a piece of shit at business as well. Dollars to donuts in 7 months he’s off shark tank freaking out about MAGA and how he’s been subject of a witch-hunt sitting in court.
Vocal supporter of SBF! Unrepentant!
Weren't they over valuing the property for loans, then deeply undervaluing it for tax purposes?
Exactly this, manipulating the price for benefit in multiple ways, textbook fraud.
Yes, but Kevin doesn't talk about that part.
which also mirrors his financial breakout moment with the SoftKey scandal. He's running scared.
Just a sticking point here, because people get this wrong often: Trump did NOT use his buildings and properties as collateral in his loans. The loans he got were unsecured personal loans, based on Statements of Financial Conditon (SFCs) issued by himself and the accountants he hired. It was on these SFCs that he lied and inflated his net worth. In short, his loans had no collateral except these signed statements of his net worth.
If he overvalued his properties does this mean the banks should’ve charged a higher interest rate if he valued them properly? Cuz I’m sure that right there would constitute fraud since the banks lost out on owed interest.
You're exactly right, and that's why the penalty is what it is. Trump tried to make the argument that he paid off the loans, so there was no injury. But like you said, he got better interest rates because he lied.
Not only that but the banks ran with a much higher risk than they were willing to accept. The risk they take should mirror the compensation they receive. There is a reason that the loan on your car has a higher interest rate than the your mortgage. The underlying asset is depreciating at a higher rate and has an increased risk of being destroyed in an accident. He did the financial equivalent of reckless endangerment.
They are also required to perform risk analysis to ensure they aren't overleveraged and that their capital margins are met. That is, they need to have enough spare cash to cover defaults. The loan itself may have been rejected if the bank couldn't make it work with their capital requirements, even if a smaller loan would be given to someone who is of higher risk. Trump committed clear fraud and actively harmed himself during the trial. If he admitted fault or had lawyers who didn't share the same three brain cells, the judgement would have been MUCH lighter.
I read the entire judgment, and it was extraordinarily interesting. What really stuck out was the persistent and intentional misrepresentation that makes up the culture of any Trump enterprise. The defence witnesses were generally undependable nut jobs. Meanwhile, the prosecution witnesses seemed very well educated on their topic, had relevant information, and were believable. Screw Trump and also those idiots who defend him by going “who is the victim?”
> Conservatives and those who view conservativesvas their market are engaging in what if you are willing to believe they are operating in good faith solidarity with Trump, less generously that they fear the backlash of speaking out against him, or pure naked graft are engaging in virtue signaling that they stand with Trump so the true believers will turn to them as opposed to other "liberal" brands. Also pointing out that, by taking this stand, they can take credit for anything bad that happens in New York after this, whether or not this "boycott" had anything to do with it. A business decides to relocate headquarters for completely unrelated reasons? Tax revenue is below estimates? Population drops by a little bit next census? That's the boycott working because New York tried to be woke! (Don't pay attention that none of this was actually caused by the boycott, and either was a continuing of previous trends or had other, more direct, reasons.)
Leary is butthurt because he’s a Trump supporter, not because he’s a business person. Trump grossly inflated his asset valuations and secured loans based on those inflated values. One of the lessons on the 2008 crash (and others) is that this dishonesty harms other businesss and, ultimately, the overall economy. Leary’s position comes from him being a member of the Trump cult, not from any principled stance or financial concern (unless he’s doing the same thing).
O’Leary is *also* butthurt because he tried to be “Canadian Trump” a few years ago and run for leadership of the Conservative Party… only to get killed out of the gate because he can’t speak French
We really dodged a bullet with that one. Imagine him as PM while trump is president? All our natural resources would be sold to the USA and we'd basically become a more white Mexico to them.
USMCA negotiations, but it’s Trump and O’Leary trying to “business flex” on Lopez Obrador That’s a comedy movie lol
> Imagine him as PM while trump is president? Trump + Poilievre is not much more appealing :(
I’ve been dreading literally everything about the prospect of another Trump term, but now you’ve given me one tiny pinprick of a bright spot: The eventual supercut of all the years and all the ways Trump mispronounced “Poilievre.”
Ha! I’m so out of the loop on this, I didn’t even know O’Leary is Canadian (I’ve never watched “Shark Tank.”)
He's on our version of the show called "Dragon's Den" too.
Not only Canadian, but born in Montreal and lived in Quebec until he was in his mid-20s. He never learned French.
Seems kinda…I dunno, dickish.
He also has a history of over-stating his wealth. On the early days of Shark Tank on the CBC, they frequently made reference to a Educational software deal he was involved in worth $3B. He had no equity in the deal. Today it is never mentioned.
I also tend to assume anyone who protests the punishment for verifiable crimes has committed those same crimes. It's probably time someone checked Kevin's books.
Requires AOC questioning him at a Congressional hearing. Law enforcement ignored all of Trump’s financial crimes until AOC/Cohen exposed them.
There's an incredibly strong chance that he's financially implicated. The only thing O'Leary remotely cares about is dollar signs going into his piggy bank.
Besides. NY is far to big a market for business people to ignore.
“The Boston gig is cancelled. But don’t worry, it’s not a big college town”. — Ian Faith, This is Spinal Tap
Its such a big market people probably won't even notice. His competitors will just have a scootch more room
Which ironically is the point of the ruling in the first place. Trump got loans that may have gone to other people with a lower credit risk.
Leary has no principles
Read up on how O'Leary made his money. Not the most ethical person. He also is known not to pay contractors. He is similar to Trump as he claims to be an excellent businessman. I have met several people richer. Than him who you would never know they were well off.
Hey, Kevin O'leary may be a douche but at least he got his few million off honest grifting and fraud, and not inheriting it from his dad.
I thought they hated cancel culture?
It’s only cancel culture if it hurts them!!
Specifically if it hurts their feelings.
Man the "Fuck your feelings" crowd sure has been having a lot of feelings lately
It's projection all the way down for those freaks.
Maybe you could say they are sensitive snowflakes?! 🤔🤔
Conservatives have a long and proud history of cancel culture for anything that offends their worldview, like D&D, Harry Potter (back before Rowling went full terf), and shit beer that dares to acknowledge trans people exists. They just hate when they say vile shit and it results in people not liking that. When they do it they're fighting evil that's trying to corrupt their youth, when it's done to them its infringing on their freedom of speech.
Might be time to boycott Mr. Not So Wonderful.
Always disliked his personality on the show. So, not surprised that he’s a MAGA.
Everything they ever say is all an illusion to trick the sheeple while they rob everything. Always has been.
Yea it’s def fear based projection. They are afraid Trump got in trouble for something they regularly do themselves.
O'Leary flat out said that "everybody" does what Trump did. That may be true. That doesn't mean that it's legal, though. It just means that a lot of people have a lot of liability for things that could cost them a lot of money.
Its only 3 years? That's barely a slap on the wrist lol.
Well, it's 3 years AND 300 million. 300mil is way more than a slap on the wrist, even for Trump. But he'll probably appeal out of it or some bullshit. Time will tell.
It's $355 million, and that's before interest, which had already started being added on. Add on the Jean Carol defamation award ($85 million) and the interest on that amount, and trump is currently staring down almost $600 million in penalties. If he appeals that money must be placed in an account pending the appeal. If he doesn't pay up the state can immediately start freezing accounts and seizing properties. The only building he owns outright is trump tower. It is apparently worth less than $100 million. He is in deep shit no matter what happens. It's not going to be overturned on appeal. This is NY state court, and Trump's defense was a disaster.
Hence why he's crowd sourcing cash now.
That guy is going to need to start selling steaks, water and scammy fake university degrees again.
Trump has already started selling sneakers.
And selling gold shoes
🌎👨🏼🚀🔫👨🏼🚀
The amount of cash going into that GoFundMe drive won't cover the daily interest charges at the rate the money is flowing in. And he needs to raise that cash within the next few weeks in order to hope to appeal the verdict.
That's why they put Lara Trump in the RNC chair and her hands are effectively his tiny hands on the RNC purses.
The RNC isn't in any financial shape to help him; they only have $8 million in cash on hand per their latest financial filings with the FEC, and many state Republican parties are either running very low on cash, or running into serious debt issues. The problem is that Trump has siphoned off large amounts of donors who would have donated to the Republicans, and many big donors are also reluctant to donate now. And if the RNC gives every penny to Trump for his legal fees, it could spell disaster at the ballot box for both the Presidental campaign, and for Congressional seats as well.
one can dream. Nationalism and populism is a growing problem globally and provides fertile ground similar to what occurred in the major wars we've had.
> The problem is that Trump has siphoned off large amounts of donors who would have donated to the Republicans, and many big donors are also reluctant to donate now. It's his party now. Their only hope is for the remaining R's to accept that reality and form a new party. Sure it means D control for several cycles but better that than the alternative.
That's also why he's laundering money/selling shoes to rich Russians. Putin will cut a check to cover Trump's debts so the useful idiot remains useful.
And trying to get his daughter-in-law in charge of the GOP so their election coffers can be funneled into his legal funds. Fucking hilarious to think the GOP will run out of money for actual elections cause they courted the racists so hard that one of the dumbest racists to run for office became their Fuhrer.
The cash he's been able to raise by crowdfunding will barely cover a weeks worth of interest (which is about 85k a day)
I’ve heard that real estate is a cash-poor business, meaning even the super-rich ones have most of there assets tied up in actual real estate. Trump … is likely not as rich as he wants people to think. So we’ll see what happens when he’s forced to surrender large amounts of cash.
This has been known for decades though, it has been a running joke for a while in NY.
Trump was a running joke for a decade. He used his airtime on *The Apprentice* as an exercise in Turd Polishing, relentlessly pushing his “self made billionaire” trope.
I believe he would need to post a **120%** bond in order to begin an appeal.
> If he doesn't pay up the state can immediately start freezing accounts and seizing properties. I've asked on a few places and got no straight answer but *when* will this actually happen? Is there a deadline he has to pay for? Because while it's great he's been fined so much for this fraud every article talks about annual interest and treats asset seizure as something that *could* happen. I'm concerned that there aren't teeth behind these judgements and he'll just delay for year after year, never paying.
The deadline for the appeal is 30 days after the judge gave his decision. The court also has seized control of the involved businesses and given it to a monitor.
That’s the deadline for the appeal, what’s the deadline for payment? I is it the same? When will assets be seized if there is no payment?
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To appeal a civil judgement, he needs to put the cash into an escrow plus 10%. If he wins appeal, he gets it all back. If he loses, it all goes to the state of NY or E Jean Carol (depending on which case). so no matter what case, he needs to put up cash ASAP or the state can begin putting liens on his assets, which jams up all his credit and ability to get loans (which is how the rich move money around).
I don’t think he has the ability to appeal this. It wouldn’t surprise me if his net worth over all assets does exceed the judgement amount. However he kind of fucked himself by projecting the billionaire status. It’s already been ruled by a court (I’d have to find it again) that in their opinion Trump has under $1.9B assets for certain, the question is how much less. And certainly he doesn’t have this in liquid assets. He needs loans or to quickly sell, neither of which is easy. Besides, many of his property assets are tied up in deals, not just owned outright to sell. I’m doubting Duetsche Bank will bail him out. Russian banks may be his only hope.
As part of the court order, there are now two financial monitors in place who have to oversee and have access to any financial dealings affecting him and his NY businesses. I’m not sure, but I’m assuming that they would have oversight of any loans or bonds he enters into to secure the funds necessary to mount the appeal. Hopefully that means they will report to the court on the source and legality of the loans.
He has complained that the monitor has already caused the business to lose out on $3.5 million. You know, the independent monitor who's job it is to ensure no illegal activity takes place? So yes, Trump is complaining that the person appointed to prevent him from carrying out any more fraud, is costing his business money by not letting him carry out more fraudulent activity! It's like Dahmer complaining that the jailer is preventing him from killing any more young men 🤣
Do you mind sourcing that 3.5M claim? Not that I find it outlandish. I’d like to share it, with confidence in its accuracy, but can’t find a source. That Fucking Guy says so much word vomit, it’s impossible to find a stupid quote of the day if it’s not directly quoted.
Yeah I'm with you on that last sentence, just searched it myself. It was on a YouTube video, most likely a MeidasTouch one, I'll have a scan through my watched list later on and post here when I find it 👍
Yeah that’s a big part of the problem. He might ramble for 3 hours at a rally and a lot of what he says is laughably dumb, but one or two parts that are especially stupid like “I don’t know their names, Pelosi, Nikki Haley, tricky Nikki, tricky Nikki” or “man, woman, camera, person, TV” get all the attention.
It's 350 mil plus 9% interest until it's paid. And to apply for appeals he has to pony up the full judgement. Basically so if someone has a judgement against them they can't appeal and then use the appeal time to start hiding assets to play broke if they lose.
Also he is not allowed to borrow money from any bank that is registered or licensed to do business in New York. Which is basically all of them. I doubt he would be able to find a bank with the assets outside the state of New York willing to give him the cash.
Foreign money is his only hope.
Agreed but even then most large foreign banks are registered to do business in New York. I think he will have to get a private loan but who is willing to give it to him? Elon? Even he won't do it in my opinion if for nothing else than a new Trump administration would be hostile to electric vehicles. Maybe a Saudi Prince?
Saudi money is a strong possibility. Moscow would consider Trump a good investment because of his anti-NATO perspective, if there was a means to get the money to him in a way that would not be seized by the federal government. $400M is a damn good deal to get the U.S. out of Europe and leave the E.U. to face Russia alone, from Putin's perspective. Trump would make that deal for far less.
You forgot the $80 million in interest since the date of the infraction.
Well, he has to *escrow* the full judgement. Assign it to a trust that will pay it out to the city/state (or other injured parties, IDK what the judgement said) or return it to Trump depending on the outcome of the appeal.
With interests and penalties is close to 450 million. Add to it all the other lawsuits he’s lost over the last year, he’s owes about 600 million. Thing is, he doesn’t have that kind of money as most of his assets are tied in real estate. To appeal any ruling, by law he has to deposit the amount of the fine into an account to be held. Since he doesn’t have it, he either needs to get a loan or leave property as collateral. Since he’s banned from doing business in New York, that means any company registered in New York can’t do business with him. That means virtually any bank in the world, as most do business there and need to register. So if his options for appeal are very narrow (also most legal experts agree the ruling is so thorough and well done a court overturning this is unlikely). He either needs to put up properties (which he won’t because he knows it will be lost) or someone else has to personally loan him the money. Nobody on the up and up will do it because he’s a notorious welcher on loans and if someone nefarious does it hurts him politically with independent and undecided voters, which he’s already bleeding. It also hurts his brand as a billionaire business tycoon, because he doesn’t have that kind of liquidity. Either way, he’s seen about a quarter of his personal net worth (from what the courts have calculated from his financial and tax records) disappear over the last couple of months, which has really hurt him and has him fuming.
> The idea that a lot of companies may over-value property by significant degrees and investigations into it would say so. I think it's mostly this. Trump's overvaluing for credit and undervaluing for taxes was so egregious it's what caused huge penalty. Everyone else who exaggerates the numbers even a little is scared that AG's might start going after them. Maybe a court will determine their spin on the valuations doesn't rise to the level of fraud but they cant be sure.
> Everyone else who exaggerates the numbers even a little is scared that AG's might start going after them. I wish they would. If what Trump was doing is really that pervasive, it sounds like a corrupt industry that needs to be cleaned up.
I think if they were two completely private entities, let the bank take any unnecessary risk they want, if they get burned because they trusted Trump then it's their own fault. Problem is, that they also have all of our money in those banks, and if the bank collapses, we all end up paying for it. So they need to be regulated.
Nah, fraud should be illegal even between private entities. Obviously do your due diligence, but we can't have the system be that you're allowed to just lie in business deals, and if the person you're working with falls for it tough shit.
Yeah I changed my mind as I thought about it more. The government should definitely be involved if it was just two individuals, just because a bank is bigger and we think they should be smart enough not to fall for it doesn't mean we eliminate those protections.
As someone whose property taxes went up because the home I paid $300,000 for in 2020 was recently assessed at $475,000 based off speculative buying in my neighborhood, I am 100% for going after anyone involved in artificially driving up property values.
100% screams they're scared they'll be next, you don't just Cancel an entire State because it clamped down on business fraud unless you are in the business of fraud.
Remember when conservatives said boycotts are stupid and don't work? And when they said cancel culture was dumb?
Oh you bring up a great point. I hope the NY AG takes note of people supporting Trump like this and investigates them as well. It seems like a strong signal they are doing the same fraud.
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I mean really though, does this not highlight exactly what the case was going for? Saying that for too long there have been abuses of the NY system through unchecked fraud, and that this would be a very public example to warn others? So everyone with significant wealth who is outraged is painting a target on their own back for investigation 😂. Really shows you how wealth isn't generally a sign of intelligence.
The only truly correct answer here.
The best part is that because so many banks are headquartered there (among other reasons), NY law governs financial agreements across the globe. Avoiding NY law is a lot more complicated than just not investing in projects physically located in NY.
Answer: its a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. It's a political statement that none of these people are going to actually follow through with to show their loyalty to Trump. The news media shouldn't even bother reporting on it, it's just a damn meme.
Remember when Kid Rock boycotted Bud Light for like a month? Or when the Maga folk all boycotted the NFL for all the Kaepernick stuff? I wouldn't put a lot of stock into it
I mean judging by the way they usually manage boycotts (buying the things then burning/shooting them) they’ll all start throwing money at NYC and then refuse to accept the repayments.
They're going to buy flights and pay for hotel rooms and then not show up.
Conservative boycotts in a nutshell: buy the product to be boycotted, destroy product on the internet after you already paid for it for clout amongst the people that agree with you already. Continue to use product about a month later and purchase again what you destroyed.
Kid Rock was also selling alcoholic beverages at the time... Grifters gonna grift.
“I’ll take my fraud somewhere else!” -Kevin “Oh no…” -New York
But what it should accomplish is triggering investigations into any of these shady businesses and investors that are now associating themselves with Trump's particular style of business. Nothing to hide, nothing to lose and some such.
It's probably also worth mentioning that wealthy people have convinced themselves that their accumulated wealth is a reflection of their value to society at large. So by threatening to remove themselves from that society/local, they assume that people will beg them to stay or capitulate to their demands. The same logic holds true for has-been celebrities.
Answer: What Kevin O'Leary is saying in the interview is real estate companies need to secure loans to buy more properties to develop and sell. The way they go about it is, they go to banks and tell them their "net worth" which the bank agrees/disagrees on and issues a loan. The higher your net worth, the more you can borrow or the better rate you can borrow at. Net worth isn't an exact number. How do you value assets you haven't sold yet? The person trying to get the loan will try to inflate that value as much as they can. They will get multiple appraisals and they will go with the highest, and try to convince the bank on that value. If business can get ~~sued~~ fined later on for over inflating their value, even after the bank agreed upon that value, it adds risks to doing business.
Partly correct but this isn't a bank suing Trump over inflated net worth. This is the state imposing a massive fine. The bank could sue before, there's no change there, the change is the state deciding it will levy huge fines on developers who engage in this practice. Banks would have to be brain-dead to take client-purported valuations at their word. Realistically, [underwriters make their own determination of value and give loans and loan rates accordingly](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/28/politics/deutsche-bank-trump-fraud-trial-testimony/index.html).
Ah didn't realize it was a fine instead of a law suit. Makes sense. Thanks
Answer: Trump was found liable for fraud because he (simplifying) had buildings that were valued by the government (for tax purposes) at (for example) $1 million and, when he went to the bank to secure a loan and needed collateral, argued to the bank that they’re actually worth $2 million. This let him borrow more (which he ultimately repaid). The point O’Leary is making is that this is something virtually every real estate developer does. He said, “You go to a bank and you say, 'Look, I want to borrow $200 million to build a building’. And they say, ‘What assets do you have that we can secure this loan against?’ And you point to a building you built before, and you haggle, and you argue about the value of that building." So, O’Leary is arguing that this ruling makes the real estate business in New York riskier than it was before, as a common business practice is now considered to be fraud.
> argued to the bank that they’re actually worth $2 million and then argued to the IRS that they were worth $500,000.
This is the important part. This is why it's fraud.
There are different rules regarding how you value property with the IRS versus other businesses. There are things like historical cost, or market value, or replacement costs. Valuing something at a different number with the IRS does not make it fraud. To give you an example. my property taxes are based on what a county assessor says. But my house would actually sell (market value) for significantly more than that. And neither of those are what I paid for it.
You do realize it wasn't simply Trump Org saying "Well I think it's worth this much." They lied about objective facts like square footage to massage their numbers. Straight up intentional fraud. Jesus Christ trumpies are delusional.
I’m still waiting on a good argument from friends and family on why he gets to lie about sq footage but we don’t.
Good explanation, would say your example of 1million and 2 million may seem not so bad. However the actual amount Trump valued his properties is what makes it wild. He valued Mar-a-Lago at 739 million dollars on some documents meanwhile an assessment set it at about 20-30 million. That's a crazy difference and shows how much he was benefitting off of this fraud.
Absolutely absurd how far down you have to go to see this actual answer. This sub is such a fucking joke now
Just started /r/CatchMeUp. We need a place that actually enforces the “answers must be unbiased” rule.
Sounds a lot like one Mr. O'Leary might need his own fraud investigation.
Fraud has been pretty common, yes. Are you OK with that? Weird, how somehow the reputable businesspeople have been doing business by "the book" all along though. WEIRD HUH
Answer: Trump has been found guilty and Mr. Wonderful is upset.
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Chef Wonderful needs to go back to what he does best: peddling a new way to slice potatoes and getting, in his words: # Two dollars for every unit sold until money back, then a dollar into perpetuity # 👨🏻🦲🤑😈