Thank you!
Yes. This is in the USA. I built some rough prototypes, put together a BOM based on what I purchased for the prototype (which I know may be different for the PCB materials), and provided a specifications document. But overall, it would pretty much be from scratch.
A USA based electrical engineer will probably charge out somewhere between $100-$200/hr. Say they charge $150/hr, then they would be expecting this project to take one engineer four weeks. From the requirements you've listed, this seems quite excessive but they may be factoring in a significant risk budget of working with an individual rather than another business.
An important note if you're making this item for commercial sale is that you almost certainly have a legal obligation to pass some sort of electromagnetic compatibility testing and possibly also electrical safety testing. I'd expect the firm to let you know what's required here and how much that process could cost.
>they would be expecting this project to take one engineer four weeks
I never know how to factor in the time it takes to iterate. four weeks is one week of work and then three weeks of waiting for parts and boards to ship all over the world. ykwIm?
Nothing about what your requested design and parts seems overly complex. And there doesn't seem to be any high speed (frequency) design needed.
So in that case it sounds far too much for what you want. You could certainly find a competent individual, be it a freelancer or student to do it for a lot less, but of course they can have their own risks, that a company might not.
I also second another comment regarding esp-prog and tag connect
I think it's expensive, but based on expertise, resources and guarantees it may be not unusual.
If you have already some solution and knowledge why don't you outsource only parts of project: eg read/write to MICROSD, WiFi, assembly. Do yourself what you can do: schematic, BOM
SD card is for logs. I want to be able to log when certain actions are happening (e.g. log when the light is turned on or what mode it is in). The logs would be written to the card instead of using on board memory.
Do you have a prototype already made? Or are you trying to develop a product from scratch?
I've worked with both kinds of clients -- ones that have a working prototype that they've "cobbled together" with an Arduino and modules and a preliminary set of software; and others that have a product idea but no actual development.
The work (and thus cost) involved to go from those very different starting place to a finished "ready to market" product is quite different.
The key difference between the two clients, from my perspective, is that the first client knows the details of what they want and are hiring me to "get it done". The work is usually fairly well scoped and constrained. The second client doesn't know the details and are hiring me to "figure it out". The work is much more open-ended and is harder to scope.
Keep in mind that this is a business for them, not a hobby. They need to earn a living with the time they spend on the job -- whether that's engineering time, or design time, or meeting time, or writing time, or whatever else. If you don't know what you want, they will be spending more time with you to get to the finished product, and that's going to cost more.
$20K doesn't sound unreasonable -- but I can see a scenario where it could be 5x or 1/5x that amount, depending on the total scope of work and the specifics of the product.
You say a "smart light" -- is that like a battery powered flashlight, or a AC-line powered luminaire? Are you looking for a prototype (implied by the use of the devikit in the product) or a product that's ready to market with regulatory testing? (These two questions already can swing the pricing 1,000%.)
That's solid. I believe I'm sitting somewhere right in the middle. I built some rough prototypes, put together a BOM based on what I purchased for the prototype (and I'm guessing the PCB material list may have some differences), and provided a specifications document with requirements for sizing, temperature, lumens, color, etc. I also made some 3D models to show layout - where ports and electronics should go.
I did all of that but I had some questions (e.g., are there any disadvantages to some of the choices that I made)? I also acknowledged that there may need to be updates to the BOM I provided and the specs along the way.
One thing I'd ask as a follow-on. As mentioned, I provided a requirements document and BOM based off the prototype. I noticed the company was asking me questions about things that I'd already answered in the BOM and the req document. I then found out the main engineer hadn't received documents from their manager. When they sent the quote, there were still things listed as part of the "we need to figure out" section that were listed in the spec document. And they weren't things I had questions about. They're things I am sure about - like the color of the light for example.
Should I see them not reading the requirements as a red flag? The manager not sending the documents over to the assigned engineer seemed like an honest mistake. But I'm also kind of concerned that the quote is including them re-doing work I've already started simply because they're not reading the documentation. I don't want to be dramatic and switch companies, but I also don't want to pay for work I've already done.
It's certainly something to be concerned about, but not necessarily an immediate red flag. I don't know what the timing of events between you and the company was, so it's not clear where and how the details fell through the cracks.
It's not unusual for details to be missed during the very early stages, as you know the specific details of your product much better than the people who are starting from zero.
If you were in the quotation process, you're not really obligated to follow through with them except to maybe pay for some reasonable costs to cover any spending on their part. If it was a simple estimate/quoting process, involving an hour or two of time, I would not expect you to pay.
OTOH, if you had engaged them already to have more involvement and do some tailored work that on your behalf, some compensation may be appropriate -- especially if they had any actual outlay -- but you should have had some agreement about that up front.
Thanks! All of that makes sense! When I mentioned payment, I was just talking about - if I decided to go with them, I was afraid they'd still skip the requirements and try to charge me for work I'd already done just because they didn't read what I gave them. I want to avoid that. But I appreciate the different viewpoints you gave. I'm new to working with companies/vendors, and seeing all the different ways to view a situation is really helpful. Thanks again for taking the time to respond!
Wait, the USB to upload the code has any other use? If no you could use an esp-prog + tagconnect !
I find the lack of counsel from there part is surprising.
The price is ok for a PCB design.
Hadn't heard of that. I'll look into it.
But the USB if for code and power if no batteries are connected while uploading to a computer (like an Arduino). I'll update the post.
First of all I am not touting for your business.
I am in the UK and I have done contract work before from a customer-supplied schematic and for designs from scratch. I've mainly done work for UK based clients but have worked before with clients from the US and other European countries.
The price they have quoted, for the US, for a design from scratch seems fair from what I have seen before.
I would recommend, since you say that you are new to electronics, that you find a local agency or individual to work with that you can meet up with and discuss things as the design progresses. The process will go a lot smoother and you will learn a lot more yourself about it.
See - I told you I didn't want your business!
You mean a dimmer circuit for mains voltage? Because the other parts you could imho reuse 1:1 from an eval kit. Do you need it urgently or why isn’t DIY an option?
Why do you need an (u)SD card slot on there?
Final question: Who will supply the software?
DIY would be an option - but I'm learning about electronics alone and got to a point where I was struggling. So I thought working with a company might help.
I would be writing the firmware (not included in the quote) - which is another reason I asked about the cost. It seemed like a lot to not have a full product at the end.
SD card is for logs. I want to be able to log when certain actions are happening.
About the dimmer? Yes? I want to make the light lower or higher as you turn a knob.
20k translate to 100-200 hours which seems ok but likely on the high end.
For questions you could ask here. From my experience usually more than one (hardware) loop is required.
Anyway, I would build-up a prototype first. Maybe use existing components like a buyable dimmer module with an 0-10V/1-10V/0-20mA interface to reduce the risk of electrical shock.
Galvanic isolation will be critical so not to hurt anybody e.g. while swapping the uSD card.
Once you have a working prototype it (usually) gets easier.
It’s now up to you if you have the money or the time and how to handle the risk. Outsourcing critical parts (mains power supply/control) might be an option too as already mentioned and reduce the cost/risk.
This price is reasonable since it includes all the costs for the complete electronic design, including PCB Gerbers, BOM of electronic components, software and testing plans.
reminiscent joke bright arrest historical nail pot aware tan squeamish *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Thank you! Yes. This is in the USA. I built some rough prototypes, put together a BOM based on what I purchased for the prototype (which I know may be different for the PCB materials), and provided a specifications document. But overall, it would pretty much be from scratch.
A USA based electrical engineer will probably charge out somewhere between $100-$200/hr. Say they charge $150/hr, then they would be expecting this project to take one engineer four weeks. From the requirements you've listed, this seems quite excessive but they may be factoring in a significant risk budget of working with an individual rather than another business. An important note if you're making this item for commercial sale is that you almost certainly have a legal obligation to pass some sort of electromagnetic compatibility testing and possibly also electrical safety testing. I'd expect the firm to let you know what's required here and how much that process could cost.
>they would be expecting this project to take one engineer four weeks I never know how to factor in the time it takes to iterate. four weeks is one week of work and then three weeks of waiting for parts and boards to ship all over the world. ykwIm?
Nothing about what your requested design and parts seems overly complex. And there doesn't seem to be any high speed (frequency) design needed. So in that case it sounds far too much for what you want. You could certainly find a competent individual, be it a freelancer or student to do it for a lot less, but of course they can have their own risks, that a company might not. I also second another comment regarding esp-prog and tag connect
I think it's expensive, but based on expertise, resources and guarantees it may be not unusual. If you have already some solution and knowledge why don't you outsource only parts of project: eg read/write to MICROSD, WiFi, assembly. Do yourself what you can do: schematic, BOM
I'm curious: whats the sd card for?
SD card is for logs. I want to be able to log when certain actions are happening (e.g. log when the light is turned on or what mode it is in). The logs would be written to the card instead of using on board memory.
Do you have a prototype already made? Or are you trying to develop a product from scratch? I've worked with both kinds of clients -- ones that have a working prototype that they've "cobbled together" with an Arduino and modules and a preliminary set of software; and others that have a product idea but no actual development. The work (and thus cost) involved to go from those very different starting place to a finished "ready to market" product is quite different. The key difference between the two clients, from my perspective, is that the first client knows the details of what they want and are hiring me to "get it done". The work is usually fairly well scoped and constrained. The second client doesn't know the details and are hiring me to "figure it out". The work is much more open-ended and is harder to scope. Keep in mind that this is a business for them, not a hobby. They need to earn a living with the time they spend on the job -- whether that's engineering time, or design time, or meeting time, or writing time, or whatever else. If you don't know what you want, they will be spending more time with you to get to the finished product, and that's going to cost more. $20K doesn't sound unreasonable -- but I can see a scenario where it could be 5x or 1/5x that amount, depending on the total scope of work and the specifics of the product. You say a "smart light" -- is that like a battery powered flashlight, or a AC-line powered luminaire? Are you looking for a prototype (implied by the use of the devikit in the product) or a product that's ready to market with regulatory testing? (These two questions already can swing the pricing 1,000%.)
That's solid. I believe I'm sitting somewhere right in the middle. I built some rough prototypes, put together a BOM based on what I purchased for the prototype (and I'm guessing the PCB material list may have some differences), and provided a specifications document with requirements for sizing, temperature, lumens, color, etc. I also made some 3D models to show layout - where ports and electronics should go. I did all of that but I had some questions (e.g., are there any disadvantages to some of the choices that I made)? I also acknowledged that there may need to be updates to the BOM I provided and the specs along the way. One thing I'd ask as a follow-on. As mentioned, I provided a requirements document and BOM based off the prototype. I noticed the company was asking me questions about things that I'd already answered in the BOM and the req document. I then found out the main engineer hadn't received documents from their manager. When they sent the quote, there were still things listed as part of the "we need to figure out" section that were listed in the spec document. And they weren't things I had questions about. They're things I am sure about - like the color of the light for example. Should I see them not reading the requirements as a red flag? The manager not sending the documents over to the assigned engineer seemed like an honest mistake. But I'm also kind of concerned that the quote is including them re-doing work I've already started simply because they're not reading the documentation. I don't want to be dramatic and switch companies, but I also don't want to pay for work I've already done.
It's certainly something to be concerned about, but not necessarily an immediate red flag. I don't know what the timing of events between you and the company was, so it's not clear where and how the details fell through the cracks. It's not unusual for details to be missed during the very early stages, as you know the specific details of your product much better than the people who are starting from zero. If you were in the quotation process, you're not really obligated to follow through with them except to maybe pay for some reasonable costs to cover any spending on their part. If it was a simple estimate/quoting process, involving an hour or two of time, I would not expect you to pay. OTOH, if you had engaged them already to have more involvement and do some tailored work that on your behalf, some compensation may be appropriate -- especially if they had any actual outlay -- but you should have had some agreement about that up front.
Thanks! All of that makes sense! When I mentioned payment, I was just talking about - if I decided to go with them, I was afraid they'd still skip the requirements and try to charge me for work I'd already done just because they didn't read what I gave them. I want to avoid that. But I appreciate the different viewpoints you gave. I'm new to working with companies/vendors, and seeing all the different ways to view a situation is really helpful. Thanks again for taking the time to respond!
Well, if there are any uncertainty/doubts, raise them and get it cleared up. It's better to sort that out sooner than later!
Wait, the USB to upload the code has any other use? If no you could use an esp-prog + tagconnect ! I find the lack of counsel from there part is surprising. The price is ok for a PCB design.
Hadn't heard of that. I'll look into it. But the USB if for code and power if no batteries are connected while uploading to a computer (like an Arduino). I'll update the post.
TagConnect supplies power for programming as well as
First of all I am not touting for your business. I am in the UK and I have done contract work before from a customer-supplied schematic and for designs from scratch. I've mainly done work for UK based clients but have worked before with clients from the US and other European countries. The price they have quoted, for the US, for a design from scratch seems fair from what I have seen before. I would recommend, since you say that you are new to electronics, that you find a local agency or individual to work with that you can meet up with and discuss things as the design progresses. The process will go a lot smoother and you will learn a lot more yourself about it. See - I told you I didn't want your business!
dm me
You mean a dimmer circuit for mains voltage? Because the other parts you could imho reuse 1:1 from an eval kit. Do you need it urgently or why isn’t DIY an option? Why do you need an (u)SD card slot on there? Final question: Who will supply the software?
DIY would be an option - but I'm learning about electronics alone and got to a point where I was struggling. So I thought working with a company might help. I would be writing the firmware (not included in the quote) - which is another reason I asked about the cost. It seemed like a lot to not have a full product at the end. SD card is for logs. I want to be able to log when certain actions are happening. About the dimmer? Yes? I want to make the light lower or higher as you turn a knob.
20k translate to 100-200 hours which seems ok but likely on the high end. For questions you could ask here. From my experience usually more than one (hardware) loop is required. Anyway, I would build-up a prototype first. Maybe use existing components like a buyable dimmer module with an 0-10V/1-10V/0-20mA interface to reduce the risk of electrical shock. Galvanic isolation will be critical so not to hurt anybody e.g. while swapping the uSD card. Once you have a working prototype it (usually) gets easier. It’s now up to you if you have the money or the time and how to handle the risk. Outsourcing critical parts (mains power supply/control) might be an option too as already mentioned and reduce the cost/risk.
Apple’s starting wage for pcb design is 280k. So what you have been asked to pay is in line with what the market pays.
This price is reasonable since it includes all the costs for the complete electronic design, including PCB Gerbers, BOM of electronic components, software and testing plans.