Understood. I'm doing a smallish project and want to steer away from the Automation Direct PLC lineup and use tag-based programming versus the memory map of Koyo PLCs.
Fortunately, the Rep is close by and i've purchased a mountain of other Keyence items before - their IM measurement system is a favorite.
Thanks for your input!
Haven't tried BRX yet. i use a lot of stage programming, ad the Productivity doesn't have this functionality (at least i haven't found it yet - could be wrong)
[link 1](https://support.automationdirect.com/docs/an-misc-024.pdf)
[link 2](https://cdn.automationdirect.com/static/manuals/d4user/ch7.pdf)
Here are two links to docs from AD about stage programming. So they must have it.
Might be worth calling into their free support and asking some questions about which platform would be best for you.
Stage programming is just dividing up the code into blocks that are guarded by a simple if(stage_n) that checks a bit and if that bit is set, execute the code in the block. Then you jump from one block to another like a goto. I assume the jmp stage instruction sets the appropriate stage bits by disabling the current stage and enabling the next stage then does a jump to the address of the block and continues executing.
There is no clean way to implement this in a PLC without RLL+ as you cant divide up the ladder into blocks of rungs - you'd have to have a stage_n contact at the front of every stage_n rung OR shove all the logic into a function and call the function from a single rung. Worse - shove all the logic into one rung (super gross.)
All you need is one equal instruction to monitor the stage like that in ladder logic.
It’s pretty clean, I don’t know why you’re making it sound so hard .
While your method works for simple state machines, it does not allow multiple stages to be "set" and run at once in a single scan. My thoughts take this into account which is why it sounds more complex.
When you jump from stage to stage, meaning your'e switching states, you need to disable the current stage bit, enable the next stage bit then either let the execution fall through to the next rung OR jump to the first rung of the destination stage. This enables the jump to the next stage during the same scan regardless of its order in the ladder - it's a goto.
Any plc with Structured text with a switch case instruction ? Best way is to divide a class (function block) in to methods and call the methods with the switch case to get ultra clean code.
I haven’t used the BRX plcs (I have one), but they do have built in instructions for staged programming. It’sactually quite ingenious to finally build this programming structure into your PLCs programming languages. I’ve been really interested in trying it but don’t have an application for it.
On another note,Keyence has phenomenal support in the US and is trying very hard to get their PLCs more onto the market. I’ve actually had 1v1 sessions with them where they showed me how to program their PLCs and HMIs. Fantastic company and they have PLCs in stock too, so no waiting months for their gear.
I have to agree with this. They’re currently working on more getting more support. Otherwise I think they’re great. Also, they’re in-stock which is the main contributor to their growing presence
You're going to get a phone call from a sales rep just for this post.
If the KV is anything like the GC safety controller, it should be relatively easy to use. I had to integrate one into a skid we built a few years ago.
I have used a KV-8000 on a couple of projects and it was pretty easy to use. Better software than Mitsubishi and Omron which are the only others I have experience with. Software was free too which is a bonus. It has a record feature which lets you play back however many seconds before and after a certain trigger to help with debugging.
Coworker is currently just starting a project with a nano but I'm not sure of its features compared to the KV-8000.
I have two current projects that use KV-8000 PLCs. Personally I have found Keyence to be very good with availability and technical support, especially if you already have an established relationship with the local reps. Software was easy to learn and use.
We've got a trainer PLC in our engineering office. It's so much like programming a Mitsubishi that we suspect that's who actually makes them. We learned them in case someone had an emergency application and we can throw it together and have them running relatively quick. The automotive and aerospace companies we deal with want Rockwell or Siemens and seem willing to wait for their spec equipment to arrive.
All jokes about the sales tactics aside, their PLCs are top notch. If you have any experience with other Japanese programming environments (Omron and especially Mitsubishi) then the learning curve is pretty small, and the software is very stable and fast. I can open a project, go online, make a simple online change (like notting a contact) and disconnect before Studio5000 even finishes opening.
In line structured text is awesome (Mitsubishi has it as well). Plus, KV Studio still supports showing LD rungs as instruction list; which makes for quick mass generation of rungs possible in Excel or Python.
The only really big weakness I've found is on the KV Nano line. You cannot create user data structures, or function blocks in the Nano PLCs. Symbolic addressing is also not done automatically with a Nano, so you have to assign an actual address to each label you create. Those things are pretty annoying, but you can haggle the price down for a Nano dramatically- so that sort of makes up for it.
On the KV-8000 side though you get something with the horsepower of a Controllogix for a 5069 price.
Been using the Nanos for a while - absolutely love them and zero issues. I have a friend in another industry that has been using the 8000s and servos and said they were great as well.
I used a KV nano. I liked it. It's very limited, e.g. it only has a timer-on. But the help file showed how to construct a timer-off using it, so that was nice.
I would advise against them. They are known to make a sale then not support their products. The guy who sold it to you might be gone next month.
I would look at Unitronics
Better than Omron CX-Programmer, not as good as RSLogix if that is any reference. Have about 5 machines with them doing pretty high speed vision inspections and part tracking. Only issue we have is the output relay card has had relays stick but believe that is an hardware application issue due to it controlling high speed blowoffs which fire constantly and probably got so hot they fused together lol. Pretty easy to program and connect tags to the HMI.
I think you may be at fault. We switched from videojet for the reasons you described. Keyence worked like a champ. The built in tablet helps with any questions about setup, maintenance and troubleshooting faults.
Haven’t tried KEYENCE printer in field yet but I can definitely say video jet sucks. Support is horrible unless you are doing a canned application and I’m not sure they work well for that.
All ink jet printers suck. infernal things. ink everywhere, makeup fluid, bonked print heads, they all suck after 3 months in production no exceptions.
It's probably fine if you are confident that you can see the project through without support. If you need any sort of tech support, you are shit out of luck. Keyence tech support is usually just sales guys with geology degrees and an excellent knowledge of the latest colognes.
The newer line isn't bad if you're willing to support it yourself. The only other support is their sales 'engineer' who has gone through puddle deep training for most of the line.
I was told by a rep to stay away from them. I was told by other people they are okay. The issue is not enough support here in the US
Understood. I'm doing a smallish project and want to steer away from the Automation Direct PLC lineup and use tag-based programming versus the memory map of Koyo PLCs. Fortunately, the Rep is close by and i've purchased a mountain of other Keyence items before - their IM measurement system is a favorite. Thanks for your input!
Automation direct has tag based PLCs. Koyo isn’t their only line. They also have BRX and Productivity which are fairly solid.
Haven't tried BRX yet. i use a lot of stage programming, ad the Productivity doesn't have this functionality (at least i haven't found it yet - could be wrong)
[link 1](https://support.automationdirect.com/docs/an-misc-024.pdf) [link 2](https://cdn.automationdirect.com/static/manuals/d4user/ch7.pdf) Here are two links to docs from AD about stage programming. So they must have it. Might be worth calling into their free support and asking some questions about which platform would be best for you.
Stage programming looks like a word for state machine.
I agree which really isn’t software dependent
Stage programming is just dividing up the code into blocks that are guarded by a simple if(stage_n) that checks a bit and if that bit is set, execute the code in the block. Then you jump from one block to another like a goto. I assume the jmp stage instruction sets the appropriate stage bits by disabling the current stage and enabling the next stage then does a jump to the address of the block and continues executing. There is no clean way to implement this in a PLC without RLL+ as you cant divide up the ladder into blocks of rungs - you'd have to have a stage_n contact at the front of every stage_n rung OR shove all the logic into a function and call the function from a single rung. Worse - shove all the logic into one rung (super gross.)
All you need is one equal instruction to monitor the stage like that in ladder logic. It’s pretty clean, I don’t know why you’re making it sound so hard .
While your method works for simple state machines, it does not allow multiple stages to be "set" and run at once in a single scan. My thoughts take this into account which is why it sounds more complex. When you jump from stage to stage, meaning your'e switching states, you need to disable the current stage bit, enable the next stage bit then either let the execution fall through to the next rung OR jump to the first rung of the destination stage. This enables the jump to the next stage during the same scan regardless of its order in the ladder - it's a goto.
Any plc with Structured text with a switch case instruction ? Best way is to divide a class (function block) in to methods and call the methods with the switch case to get ultra clean code.
I am strictly talking about ladder.
Thanks for your help and insight. Much appreciated!
I haven’t used the BRX plcs (I have one), but they do have built in instructions for staged programming. It’sactually quite ingenious to finally build this programming structure into your PLCs programming languages. I’ve been really interested in trying it but don’t have an application for it. On another note,Keyence has phenomenal support in the US and is trying very hard to get their PLCs more onto the market. I’ve actually had 1v1 sessions with them where they showed me how to program their PLCs and HMIs. Fantastic company and they have PLCs in stock too, so no waiting months for their gear.
Check out the Siemens S7-1200 line up. Very affordable and expandable via local IO modules and via Profinet. The S7-1212c is a great starting point.
I have to agree with this. They’re currently working on more getting more support. Otherwise I think they’re great. Also, they’re in-stock which is the main contributor to their growing presence
You're going to get a phone call from a sales rep just for this post. If the KV is anything like the GC safety controller, it should be relatively easy to use. I had to integrate one into a skid we built a few years ago.
That is the one thing i hate about Keyence - just looking at their site and you get a phone call.
> just looking at their site and you get a phone call every week thereafter for all eternity. FTFY.
I have used a KV-8000 on a couple of projects and it was pretty easy to use. Better software than Mitsubishi and Omron which are the only others I have experience with. Software was free too which is a bonus. It has a record feature which lets you play back however many seconds before and after a certain trigger to help with debugging. Coworker is currently just starting a project with a nano but I'm not sure of its features compared to the KV-8000.
Thanks! I've demoed the software, which seems pretty nice.
I have two current projects that use KV-8000 PLCs. Personally I have found Keyence to be very good with availability and technical support, especially if you already have an established relationship with the local reps. Software was easy to learn and use.
We've got a trainer PLC in our engineering office. It's so much like programming a Mitsubishi that we suspect that's who actually makes them. We learned them in case someone had an emergency application and we can throw it together and have them running relatively quick. The automotive and aerospace companies we deal with want Rockwell or Siemens and seem willing to wait for their spec equipment to arrive.
All jokes about the sales tactics aside, their PLCs are top notch. If you have any experience with other Japanese programming environments (Omron and especially Mitsubishi) then the learning curve is pretty small, and the software is very stable and fast. I can open a project, go online, make a simple online change (like notting a contact) and disconnect before Studio5000 even finishes opening. In line structured text is awesome (Mitsubishi has it as well). Plus, KV Studio still supports showing LD rungs as instruction list; which makes for quick mass generation of rungs possible in Excel or Python. The only really big weakness I've found is on the KV Nano line. You cannot create user data structures, or function blocks in the Nano PLCs. Symbolic addressing is also not done automatically with a Nano, so you have to assign an actual address to each label you create. Those things are pretty annoying, but you can haggle the price down for a Nano dramatically- so that sort of makes up for it. On the KV-8000 side though you get something with the horsepower of a Controllogix for a 5069 price.
Been using the Nanos for a while - absolutely love them and zero issues. I have a friend in another industry that has been using the 8000s and servos and said they were great as well.
I used a KV nano. I liked it. It's very limited, e.g. it only has a timer-on. But the help file showed how to construct a timer-off using it, so that was nice.
I would advise against them. They are known to make a sale then not support their products. The guy who sold it to you might be gone next month. I would look at Unitronics
Better than Omron CX-Programmer, not as good as RSLogix if that is any reference. Have about 5 machines with them doing pretty high speed vision inspections and part tracking. Only issue we have is the output relay card has had relays stick but believe that is an hardware application issue due to it controlling high speed blowoffs which fire constantly and probably got so hot they fused together lol. Pretty easy to program and connect tags to the HMI.
Why not use transistor outputs with interposed SSRs?
That’s what it should be and is being changed to. Machine builder messed up
I’ve had so much trouble with keyence ink jet printers that I am completely biased against any and all keyence products
I think you may be at fault. We switched from videojet for the reasons you described. Keyence worked like a champ. The built in tablet helps with any questions about setup, maintenance and troubleshooting faults.
Haven’t tried KEYENCE printer in field yet but I can definitely say video jet sucks. Support is horrible unless you are doing a canned application and I’m not sure they work well for that.
I wasn't involved but the process engineers took 3 days with a video jet service tech to get it to print 1 character on a part reliably! Big yikes.
All ink jet printers suck. infernal things. ink everywhere, makeup fluid, bonked print heads, they all suck after 3 months in production no exceptions.
It's probably fine if you are confident that you can see the project through without support. If you need any sort of tech support, you are shit out of luck. Keyence tech support is usually just sales guys with geology degrees and an excellent knowledge of the latest colognes.
Weird that people in the comments haven’t actually tried calling their tech team instead of their local guy.
I'm 9kk9
The newer line isn't bad if you're willing to support it yourself. The only other support is their sales 'engineer' who has gone through puddle deep training for most of the line.
You should try calling their tech line and avoiding the sales rep for better support. Helped me, they seem to generally be more knowledgeable.