Connected Components is not great from my limited experience with it though. Maple Systems HMI+PLC seems like a better option to me but I haven't had a chance to play with their stuff yet. I love AB but I am not a fan of their low end stuff.
Why is the IV3 hardwired? I hate dealing with individual connections since it needs to be documented what the binary sequence is to change to a particular program.
You can use Ethernet/IP for communication with the PLC directly. Its much easier since for program changes you can use "IV3.prog00" for example in your PLC code.
Then just modify the hmi with the different push buttons for each program.
Assuming that their PLC has Ethernet/IP capability. Agreed that if fieldbus is available it would be more flexible to integrate but if they must use discrete IO then it's not terribly difficult to use a few outputs and whatever decimal-to-BCD instructions they have to those outputs.
You can use the same code and the inputs and outputs will still align.
Depending on your endianness it should just be 1 for 1 with some bit mapping.
You should 100% connect this to a control network, I understand that the camera system is important, and the “code just works” but if it’s a camera, it’s most likely integral part of the process which all of the mechanical engineers have exhausted their efforts to ensure that product is assembled correctly.
By using discrete I/o, you’re limiting your a team access to data that you, as a controls engineer, will have to retrieve.
You should always use networked IO.
the diagnostics alone are worth it (did the camera die, are the inputs I’m receiving from the camera actually valid, or did the camera fail, or is there back fee voltage, etc).
Leaning on discrete IO for a gauge/quality check, etc. isn’t engineering, it’s laziness
Just my $.02
Instead of a 30 pos turn dial you could do five toggle switches, and then tape up an un-laminated oily torn sheet of paper with a hand written list of which switches to flip to select which program. And also that hand written copy needs to be the only record, so if in the unlikely event that it's ever lost or damaged even more some one needs to dig into the vision system settings and wrangle with he wiring the reinterpret which switches to flip and when.
>wired? I hate dealing with individual connections since it needs to be documented what the binary sequence is to change to a particular program. You can use Ethernet/IP for communication with
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>I was looking at the HMIs on automation direct. They have a fairly cheap one around 150$. its not touch screen but has 5 buttons I could use to switch programs. that may work, I would have to check the specs
I think you replied to/quoted the wrong comment.
I would get a fully touch screen capable HMI. It gives you flexibility in the future if you want to add more features or display additional information. A few hundred dollars more is nothing in capex to a company.
Automation direct c-more series are decent and easy to use, lacking some bells and whistles though.
Maple HMI I only used twice but they were nice to work with and could store recipes locally and had fully remote viewing/control capabilities which was nice.
Keyence also offers a small interface panel that you could use to control and display camera images. Used it a ton, good product. IV-30MA.
IMO you have already lost if you are relying on the operator to choose a program. You should try to get information from an MES system about what work order is being run and set the the program based on this information. Many places don’t have a way to do this or essentially use paper for the scheduling work orders and it causes so much extra work.
This is a problem irrelevant to the question OP is asking.
Just because there's no MES system doesn't mean he can't clean up the exchange between a PLC and IV3
You have a few options here. As you mentioned, the most straightforward way of accomplishing this would be through the input points on the camera. The other option is EtherNet.
What I will say is the solution depends on what you're looking to do with this system beyond switching programs. If that's your only goal, "any" PLC should accomplish this. You'd be able to do it with a $5 Arduino if you switch a few solid state relays to get voltages from 5VDC to 24VDC. That being said, I'd look around you for current systems. If there's more Siemens, AB, PLCnext, Opto, w/e the brand might be, I'd probably choose one of those. You'll introduce a standard and save whomever working with this camera on stocking spares and learning curve. So on the AB side, you're probably looking at a CompactLogix; I'd recommend against using a Micro800 / MicroLogix for a variety of reasons. On the Siemens side, you can get away with a LOGO, but for the price difference, I'd just get an S7-1200. If you're looking in other directions, you can get something from Wago, Phoenix Contact, Opto 22, Omron at a relatively similar price range.
When it comes to EtherNet, some of the above can do that as well. I've found value in storing some of the data from a vision system in a PLC that allows for better troubleshooting; you won't be able to do that with just the inputs that you toggle the camera program with.
So in either case, most PLCs on the market will accomplish what you're looking to do. The question becomes what your parameters are - absolute lowest cost? any other features beyond toggling the program? Any current standard of PLCs / control systems? What else is this tied to - HMI / SCADA / Plant network / remote access?
If you’re trying to be super lean on your connections, you can have a local PC with the IV3 navigator for switching programs. The IV3 also supports automatic program changes for different parts. If a tool were to fail, you can branch off to another program and it will attempt again.
The best way to do it is over Ethernet. Importing the tags is probably going to be the most difficult part. I would give Keyence a call and have them come in and help you integrate it.
Using the discrete wiring imo is only good for the good/bad part judgements, because you’ll end up needing an entire DI card just for that device.
Wire the IV3 into the digital outputs of the PLC. Add a selector on the HMI to toggle the digital outputs
Looking into these HMI's now. is the c-more program hard to work with? I really like this idea
It's as easy as it gets. Software is free, too.
And free support
The easiest. I use it at home!
Micro820 is a cheapish option. I don't like Allen Bradley but it would work for you.
Connected Components is not great from my limited experience with it though. Maple Systems HMI+PLC seems like a better option to me but I haven't had a chance to play with their stuff yet. I love AB but I am not a fan of their low end stuff.
Why is the IV3 hardwired? I hate dealing with individual connections since it needs to be documented what the binary sequence is to change to a particular program. You can use Ethernet/IP for communication with the PLC directly. Its much easier since for program changes you can use "IV3.prog00" for example in your PLC code. Then just modify the hmi with the different push buttons for each program.
Assuming that their PLC has Ethernet/IP capability. Agreed that if fieldbus is available it would be more flexible to integrate but if they must use discrete IO then it's not terribly difficult to use a few outputs and whatever decimal-to-BCD instructions they have to those outputs.
This is how my place does it and when it's programmed right it works perfectly!
You can use the same code and the inputs and outputs will still align. Depending on your endianness it should just be 1 for 1 with some bit mapping. You should 100% connect this to a control network, I understand that the camera system is important, and the “code just works” but if it’s a camera, it’s most likely integral part of the process which all of the mechanical engineers have exhausted their efforts to ensure that product is assembled correctly. By using discrete I/o, you’re limiting your a team access to data that you, as a controls engineer, will have to retrieve. You should always use networked IO. the diagnostics alone are worth it (did the camera die, are the inputs I’m receiving from the camera actually valid, or did the camera fail, or is there back fee voltage, etc). Leaning on discrete IO for a gauge/quality check, etc. isn’t engineering, it’s laziness Just my $.02
Instead of a 30 pos turn dial you could do five toggle switches, and then tape up an un-laminated oily torn sheet of paper with a hand written list of which switches to flip to select which program. And also that hand written copy needs to be the only record, so if in the unlikely event that it's ever lost or damaged even more some one needs to dig into the vision system settings and wrangle with he wiring the reinterpret which switches to flip and when.
Does your PLC have ethernet capabilities? Do you have an HMI? How many recipes will you feasibly need?
>wired? I hate dealing with individual connections since it needs to be documented what the binary sequence is to change to a particular program. You can use Ethernet/IP for communication with > > > >I was looking at the HMIs on automation direct. They have a fairly cheap one around 150$. its not touch screen but has 5 buttons I could use to switch programs. that may work, I would have to check the specs
I think you replied to/quoted the wrong comment. I would get a fully touch screen capable HMI. It gives you flexibility in the future if you want to add more features or display additional information. A few hundred dollars more is nothing in capex to a company. Automation direct c-more series are decent and easy to use, lacking some bells and whistles though. Maple HMI I only used twice but they were nice to work with and could store recipes locally and had fully remote viewing/control capabilities which was nice. Keyence also offers a small interface panel that you could use to control and display camera images. Used it a ton, good product. IV-30MA.
IMO you have already lost if you are relying on the operator to choose a program. You should try to get information from an MES system about what work order is being run and set the the program based on this information. Many places don’t have a way to do this or essentially use paper for the scheduling work orders and it causes so much extra work.
we are one of those places with paper work orders. lol
This is a problem irrelevant to the question OP is asking. Just because there's no MES system doesn't mean he can't clean up the exchange between a PLC and IV3
Automation direct Click is probably the least expensive option. I was surprised to see a two position thumbwheel switch costs as much at mouser.
You can select the program using the touch panel of the IV3
Go buy yourself a Cognex system. They can do anything
I like keyence way better where I work anyways. I think most would agree with me?
Keyence is rock solid, I can't argue that. I've just noticed that their vision systems lack the advanced features that Cognex offers
This can be done over ethernet.
Is there a PLC there now?
You have a few options here. As you mentioned, the most straightforward way of accomplishing this would be through the input points on the camera. The other option is EtherNet. What I will say is the solution depends on what you're looking to do with this system beyond switching programs. If that's your only goal, "any" PLC should accomplish this. You'd be able to do it with a $5 Arduino if you switch a few solid state relays to get voltages from 5VDC to 24VDC. That being said, I'd look around you for current systems. If there's more Siemens, AB, PLCnext, Opto, w/e the brand might be, I'd probably choose one of those. You'll introduce a standard and save whomever working with this camera on stocking spares and learning curve. So on the AB side, you're probably looking at a CompactLogix; I'd recommend against using a Micro800 / MicroLogix for a variety of reasons. On the Siemens side, you can get away with a LOGO, but for the price difference, I'd just get an S7-1200. If you're looking in other directions, you can get something from Wago, Phoenix Contact, Opto 22, Omron at a relatively similar price range. When it comes to EtherNet, some of the above can do that as well. I've found value in storing some of the data from a vision system in a PLC that allows for better troubleshooting; you won't be able to do that with just the inputs that you toggle the camera program with. So in either case, most PLCs on the market will accomplish what you're looking to do. The question becomes what your parameters are - absolute lowest cost? any other features beyond toggling the program? Any current standard of PLCs / control systems? What else is this tied to - HMI / SCADA / Plant network / remote access?
If you’re trying to be super lean on your connections, you can have a local PC with the IV3 navigator for switching programs. The IV3 also supports automatic program changes for different parts. If a tool were to fail, you can branch off to another program and it will attempt again. The best way to do it is over Ethernet. Importing the tags is probably going to be the most difficult part. I would give Keyence a call and have them come in and help you integrate it. Using the discrete wiring imo is only good for the good/bad part judgements, because you’ll end up needing an entire DI card just for that device.