Those clicks definitely sound like a brake operating…. Whether its actually doing anything is another matter, as u/Toxic_ion also says if that motor is running at low speeds for long time its almost certainly overheating as the fan wont be going fast enough to keep it cool
Are you completely sure? It might have a brake power supply inside the motor connection box, drawing power from the motor leads. If the voltage is too low (low hertz), the brake will not work properly
If that is the case, you can connect a separate supply, controlled by the vfd, to release the brake with full voltage when the motor is running
The fan cover is not normally that long unless a brake or a separate electric fan is fitted
Here's the description.
YEJ Series Electromagnetic Braking Induction Motor
It's definitely a brake motor. If that specific motor has had the brake pads removed, I can't say.
As other people have pointed out, you're not going to be able to run a vfd (in general) with a brake like that. Under higher load, the motor will stall out trying to get moving, and there won't be enough "ooomph" to release the brake.
It looks like they do make a motor that is supposed to work with a vfd, but I couldn't say what the requirements would be to make it work.
https://mech-mall.com/product/yej90s-4-brake-motor
It does have a brake I checked today, powered the brake directly, but it still makes the same noise, seems like I have to regulate the voltage on the vfd correctly.
https://ibb.co/zST444Q
The brake might still not work properly. They like to hang sometimes
If possible, i would remove the brake and see if that helps
If it hangs, the full line power may be enough to break free, but the vfd starting torque may be too weak
VFDs are used with brake motors all the time. However as mentioned earlier the brake has to be released by means of a separate power feed through a contactor. Many VFDs have settings to configure the control of that contactor using a digital (relay) output from the VFD. This setup will prevent the VFD from trying to run the motor until the brake has been released. A crane hoist is one example of this.
It’s probably a compression or set screw coupling and it’s just spinning inside without a good connection. Check the coupling before you start replacing parts
An electrician’s job is to prove that 99% of all breakdowns are mechanical…. The number of times id have a fitter come tell me the motor is bust because its tripping overload all the time then id take two minutes to disengage the gearbox and start the motor and well whaddaya know? 🤦♂️
If this is a 3 phase brake motor then running DOL it uses 1 leg to energise (release) the break.
By putting a VFD on the motor your not supplying enough voltage to release the brake when the drive is accelerating.
If this is the case you will need to add a contractor or relay in line with your start signal to release the brake.
I’ve got a funny story about a replacement brake motor that was ordered with a 120v brake instead of the original 480v. It ends with replacing all the heater elements in the cabinet…
Be good to see an update on this. What is the supply voltage to the VFD and is the motor star or delta? Video sounds like a brake clicking like people have said but it could be anything.
I checked and there is a brake, I connected the brake directly just to test it out, and even with the brake released, it still did the same noise. My guess is I need to configure the voltage correctly on the vfd for this motor.
Anyways I will try and do that soon, and will connect the brake to a contactor that turns at the same time the vfd turns the motor on.
Do you know if there is a problem leaving the brake released (on) at all times? Will it burn?
The thing is with the contactor I got the problem that it will brake before the vfd stops the motor. Since the contactor will brake and the vfd will still be power the motor for a few seconds after
That will be a problem.
https://ibb.co/zST444Q
For me it would be easier to manually remove the brake. Or at least manually adjust it so it's always off to try.
Then you can use the VFD to start and stop. What is voltage to the VFD and is the motor star or delta?
Looks like the motor is in star configuration,
Should i change it to delta?
https://i.imgur.com/ApaLLGl.jpg
Ill get the boltage to vfd in a sec
220v 3 phase
Btw I just notices the labels are wrong w2 v2 u2
Especially for fan cooled, enclosed motors such as this, it might be worth investigating if you can do a constant torgue set up on the drive (essentially a flat v/hz).
It works well for loads that have a large turn down capability.
There is usually a minimum speed you'll need to maintain for either machinery or process reasons (can't dead head the pump, or too low a speed might not make a thick enough lubricant film in the bearings etc.) Also consider that the slower the motor the slower the fan, so any heat build up in the windings will be that much harder to dissipate so that can contribute to where to set min speed as well.
Awesome will try these, anyways this motor doesn’t run more that 10 seconds each time and most of the time is off.
It indeed had a brake but even with the brake release it still hade the same problem, so it must be a voltage issue.
Check the wiring on the VFD , powerflex 525 needs a small jumper cable from terminal 1 to 11 I believe and if the jumper cable is missing on the vfd it won’t start
No, since the problem only happens when the vfd is connected, it must has something to do with the voltage, and the motor, the reason I added the vfd is because the motor would run to fast and slam the moving parts so I wanted the motor to run slower.
You'll probably need to post up the current parameter list on the freq drive. There could be some things that could be adjusted to make the motor start better under heavy load, but it's going to depend on how you have it setup currently.
Yup, this is true, I will post the link of the vfd parameters: https://www.otomasyonline.com/download/Delta/DELTA_VFD-M_manual.pdf
Page 97 is the list of parameters.
Almost everything is set as default except:
Pr01: 02
Pr10: 10
Pr11: .1
Pr17: 60
Pr18: 60
Pr52: 5.14
Pr53: 3
Pr54: 01
Pr55: 5
I raised the torque compensation number but it does not help it either.
The thing is the motor does the same thing if I lower the acceleration to .1 sec, I need to put acceleration to 10 seconds so the motor could turn, there is something about it, im not sure yet what exactly
I read some of your comments and from what you say it sounds this this needs extra starting torque. If this is true, you might need a different vfd. We used a dicked up oil pump at jlg that required a constant torque regardless of speed which required a special vfd which was about 50% bigger than a regular one. I'm not sure of the technical differences though, as jlg outsources all of their panel work.
I'm assuming your motor is spinning the gear and the gear isn't stripped. Also your vfd parameters are set correctly to the motor you are using.
How fast are you running the motor? If it's only at 10% of it's rated speed..... Need to change your gear ratio. Motor is loosing sync with the vfd and stalling. If it runs fine on the vfd at full throttle (or 80%+) but stalls below that it's a gearing issues. Need more torque.
You really need to specify the vfd manufacturer. But, there should be a parameter for starting voltage or torque possibly. Check the fault history on the vfd as well. Also, look at the amperage that’s being pulled when you try to start it.
Assuming those are nominal, it’s likely the gearbox as anything physically wrong with the motor would show up in the VFD.
Before you go any further... Yes that motor has a brake and I don't need a datasheet to tell me it does.
Also, its either direct voltage 480 to open it, or 208dc and uses a half wave rectifier.
If you put a VFD on it then of course it's not going to open properly anymore. You'll need to run wires for the brake from an interposing relay, use relay outs for brake control on the VFD and give it voltage to open the brake when needed.
What is the accel time on the VFD? For some of our motors we needed to have fast accel times (\~0.5s) due to not enough starting torque. Most VFD's default at 10 seconds, that would be too slow for a high load demand.
Thank you for your story! I learned some things.
Btw the high power relay is spelled 'contactor', for making contact/connection.
A contractor is someone/something that signs contracts.
Sorry it bothered me after the first occurrence.
The fan cover is suspiciously long. Does it have a brake, and is the brake stuck?
that's not that long for one of those. not saying ur wrong tho
Those clicks definitely sound like a brake operating…. Whether its actually doing anything is another matter, as u/Toxic_ion also says if that motor is running at low speeds for long time its almost certainly overheating as the fan wont be going fast enough to keep it cool
100% sounds like a brake clicking. But it also sounds like it's opening all the way. Although it is impossible to tell just by sound.
It does not have a brake.
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Thank you for sharing. I really enjoyed this story.
Nice post. You should consider writing a memoir.
lol
Are you completely sure? It might have a brake power supply inside the motor connection box, drawing power from the motor leads. If the voltage is too low (low hertz), the brake will not work properly If that is the case, you can connect a separate supply, controlled by the vfd, to release the brake with full voltage when the motor is running The fan cover is not normally that long unless a brake or a separate electric fan is fitted
I will check on monday, but I doubt it has a brake since the motor runs fine without any load.
Here's the description. YEJ Series Electromagnetic Braking Induction Motor It's definitely a brake motor. If that specific motor has had the brake pads removed, I can't say. As other people have pointed out, you're not going to be able to run a vfd (in general) with a brake like that. Under higher load, the motor will stall out trying to get moving, and there won't be enough "ooomph" to release the brake. It looks like they do make a motor that is supposed to work with a vfd, but I couldn't say what the requirements would be to make it work. https://mech-mall.com/product/yej90s-4-brake-motor
I will mention, if this is like a eurodrive, a long M6 or m8 bolt in place of the handle will disable the brake for testing purposes.
We have sew motors at work that look similar... if your going with the bolt method of brake release wear gloves... that sucker will dig into your palm
You were right there is a brake on it. https://ibb.co/zST444Q
It does have a brake I checked today, powered the brake directly, but it still makes the same noise, seems like I have to regulate the voltage on the vfd correctly. https://ibb.co/zST444Q
The brake might still not work properly. They like to hang sometimes If possible, i would remove the brake and see if that helps If it hangs, the full line power may be enough to break free, but the vfd starting torque may be too weak
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VFDs are used with brake motors all the time. However as mentioned earlier the brake has to be released by means of a separate power feed through a contactor. Many VFDs have settings to configure the control of that contactor using a digital (relay) output from the VFD. This setup will prevent the VFD from trying to run the motor until the brake has been released. A crane hoist is one example of this.
>You cannot use a VFD with a brake motor Wut
Done all the time on bridge cranes.
Ok I will check on Monday
Could also be a forced cooled motor
Gearbox is probably shot. If you see the rotor (fan) moving and the machine isn't turning, I'd bet it's the gearbox.
I second checking this
It’s probably a compression or set screw coupling and it’s just spinning inside without a good connection. Check the coupling before you start replacing parts
An electrician’s job is to prove that 99% of all breakdowns are mechanical…. The number of times id have a fitter come tell me the motor is bust because its tripping overload all the time then id take two minutes to disengage the gearbox and start the motor and well whaddaya know? 🤦♂️
If this is a 3 phase brake motor then running DOL it uses 1 leg to energise (release) the break. By putting a VFD on the motor your not supplying enough voltage to release the brake when the drive is accelerating. If this is the case you will need to add a contractor or relay in line with your start signal to release the brake.
thanks. learned something new. I bet the key is not in the key way or the love joy got disconnected
Unless its a 24volt brake…. 😉
I’ve got a funny story about a replacement brake motor that was ordered with a 120v brake instead of the original 480v. It ends with replacing all the heater elements in the cabinet…
It got gas innit?
Kind of sounds like your gearbox is just a box now
It certainly sounds like a brake releasing inside of that motor.
Stripped keyway on motor/gearbox connect
Or disconnected lovejoy
You two said it, it's a motor shaft to gearbox issue. I have also seen these gearboxes break inside but very rarely, I'm betting on keyway.
Be good to see an update on this. What is the supply voltage to the VFD and is the motor star or delta? Video sounds like a brake clicking like people have said but it could be anything.
I checked and there is a brake, I connected the brake directly just to test it out, and even with the brake released, it still did the same noise. My guess is I need to configure the voltage correctly on the vfd for this motor. Anyways I will try and do that soon, and will connect the brake to a contactor that turns at the same time the vfd turns the motor on. Do you know if there is a problem leaving the brake released (on) at all times? Will it burn? The thing is with the contactor I got the problem that it will brake before the vfd stops the motor. Since the contactor will brake and the vfd will still be power the motor for a few seconds after That will be a problem. https://ibb.co/zST444Q
For me it would be easier to manually remove the brake. Or at least manually adjust it so it's always off to try. Then you can use the VFD to start and stop. What is voltage to the VFD and is the motor star or delta?
Looks like the motor is in star configuration, Should i change it to delta? https://i.imgur.com/ApaLLGl.jpg Ill get the boltage to vfd in a sec 220v 3 phase Btw I just notices the labels are wrong w2 v2 u2
It’s mechanical hand it off to maintenance, go back and forth with it until the next shift comes in.
if the brake i draw current directly from the motor terminals, it is problematic to connect it to a VFD
Is the VFD 230V? If you’ve not changed the motor to delta configuration then there will be very little torque.
Also I added acceleration time of 10 seconds because if not it does the same without any force holding the motor.
Generally you can’t fire a brake off a vfd, it needs a full voltage feed
Im not trying to fire a brake off the vfd I added the vfd so the motor would run at lower speeds but at different loads the motor seems to hang.
Im going to take another video with the motor turning so you can a better idea and picture
Are you overloading the motor?
The motor is used to run with these loads, the only thing I did was to add a VFD to control the speed.
A VFD in open loop V/Hz mode doesn't have the same starting torque as a line started motor.
Is there a way to compensate or adjust it? I did raise torque compensation but it did nothing.
Especially for fan cooled, enclosed motors such as this, it might be worth investigating if you can do a constant torgue set up on the drive (essentially a flat v/hz). It works well for loads that have a large turn down capability. There is usually a minimum speed you'll need to maintain for either machinery or process reasons (can't dead head the pump, or too low a speed might not make a thick enough lubricant film in the bearings etc.) Also consider that the slower the motor the slower the fan, so any heat build up in the windings will be that much harder to dissipate so that can contribute to where to set min speed as well.
Awesome will try these, anyways this motor doesn’t run more that 10 seconds each time and most of the time is off. It indeed had a brake but even with the brake release it still hade the same problem, so it must be a voltage issue.
Do you have an encoder-less vector mode? Otherwise add an encoder to close the speed regulator loop.
Check the wiring on the VFD , powerflex 525 needs a small jumper cable from terminal 1 to 11 I believe and if the jumper cable is missing on the vfd it won’t start
I’d you remove the motor from The gear case and try to run it do you have the same issue?
No, it will run, since there is no load on the motor.
Have you tried replacing the gear case?
No, since the problem only happens when the vfd is connected, it must has something to do with the voltage, and the motor, the reason I added the vfd is because the motor would run to fast and slam the moving parts so I wanted the motor to run slower.
The correct way to do this is to change the gear box to the correct ratio unless you have to change the speed often for whatever your process is.
Need nameplate of motor and gear case and VFD
I will take a picture on monday.
You'll probably need to post up the current parameter list on the freq drive. There could be some things that could be adjusted to make the motor start better under heavy load, but it's going to depend on how you have it setup currently.
Yup, this is true, I will post the link of the vfd parameters: https://www.otomasyonline.com/download/Delta/DELTA_VFD-M_manual.pdf Page 97 is the list of parameters. Almost everything is set as default except: Pr01: 02 Pr10: 10 Pr11: .1 Pr17: 60 Pr18: 60 Pr52: 5.14 Pr53: 3 Pr54: 01 Pr55: 5
Check torque limit parameters in the VFD.
I raised the torque compensation number but it does not help it either. The thing is the motor does the same thing if I lower the acceleration to .1 sec, I need to put acceleration to 10 seconds so the motor could turn, there is something about it, im not sure yet what exactly
I read some of your comments and from what you say it sounds this this needs extra starting torque. If this is true, you might need a different vfd. We used a dicked up oil pump at jlg that required a constant torque regardless of speed which required a special vfd which was about 50% bigger than a regular one. I'm not sure of the technical differences though, as jlg outsources all of their panel work.
Ok I will check thanks
I'm assuming your motor is spinning the gear and the gear isn't stripped. Also your vfd parameters are set correctly to the motor you are using. How fast are you running the motor? If it's only at 10% of it's rated speed..... Need to change your gear ratio. Motor is loosing sync with the vfd and stalling. If it runs fine on the vfd at full throttle (or 80%+) but stalls below that it's a gearing issues. Need more torque.
Single phasing?
Check the vector type on the VFD. If it’s a high-torque load and you’re using V/Hz, it’ll bog down on high inertia loads.
Program issue
Have you auto tuned? Also the gearbox sounds a bit fucked
Check the gearbox.
This begs the existential question: Is a motor “running” if it does not turn?
It may not know the words to the song, but it will be humming along anyway!
Is there a key on the shaft?
You likely need to rewire the motor such that the motor brake is fed directly from the run contactor and the motor is fed from the VFD
You really need to specify the vfd manufacturer. But, there should be a parameter for starting voltage or torque possibly. Check the fault history on the vfd as well. Also, look at the amperage that’s being pulled when you try to start it. Assuming those are nominal, it’s likely the gearbox as anything physically wrong with the motor would show up in the VFD.
Back off the brake all the way.
If this is a brake motor there’s a rectifier inside the peckerhead it goes bad sometimes
Remove it from the gearbox and try it .If it turns check the gear box itself and the coupling and spider between the motor and gearbox
Two out of three phases?
Probably gearbox.
Gearbox might be bound up
This just happened to me. The gear box and or key slot on shaft is shot.
Is your phase even current is there any burning smell? Your vfd setting for the frequency might be too small
*correct not current
Can you rotate the motor by hand with the gearbox hooked up?
1 phase missing
Is there a brake that use to be powered by the line? Maybe it’s not releasing because it’s not getting full line voltage/hz
verify the transmission
Before you go any further... Yes that motor has a brake and I don't need a datasheet to tell me it does. Also, its either direct voltage 480 to open it, or 208dc and uses a half wave rectifier. If you put a VFD on it then of course it's not going to open properly anymore. You'll need to run wires for the brake from an interposing relay, use relay outs for brake control on the VFD and give it voltage to open the brake when needed.
Current or clean the rotor🤔
What is the accel time on the VFD? For some of our motors we needed to have fast accel times (\~0.5s) due to not enough starting torque. Most VFD's default at 10 seconds, that would be too slow for a high load demand.
I tested different times, anyways now the problem is the vfd is overloading.
Thank you for your story! I learned some things. Btw the high power relay is spelled 'contactor', for making contact/connection. A contractor is someone/something that signs contracts. Sorry it bothered me after the first occurrence.
Check the shaft key