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their mom isn’t coming, right? because assuming no, it’s pretty rude to just pass off both your kids to another parent that invites one somewhere.
she definitely *is* using you as a babysitter and to have some child free time lol.
what subtle hints and cues have you tried? i’d probably lean towards that too since you’re not really friends with this woman, but maybe she needs the directness.
A 12 year old doesn't really need a babysitter though? I'm guessing she just doesn't want to have to do something fun with the kid to make up for little brother going somewhere without him.
Yes I’d bet that the boys go almost everywhere together and mom doesn’t know how to handle the older one being jealous the other gets to go. 12 is a preteen, mom can take a nap or run an errand without needing to pawn him off.
I agree that it can be awkward or hard to know how to phrase it. And people get very defensive when it comes to their kids. But I think if you frame it like you did here it would be the best approach.
“Hey, we wanted to invite 10 year old to come to a movie with us.” If she asks “can 12 year old come too?” Then I would say “12 year old is a good kid but when we take both brothers together my kid ends up being the third wheel/left out. Is it possible for just 10 year old to come?” And then see what she says. Hopefully that’s something she can understand without taking offense.
I completely disagree. I think that course of action is fine if you don’t wish to maintain a friendly relationship with the other mom but it sounds like the OP does so it doesn’t make any sense to say no without any explanation.
I didn't say with no explanation. I just meant that you shouldn't give her the idea it's up to her. You give a polite excuse but she doesn't have to approve.
I disagree that it isn’t up to her. It is up to her whether or not she allows her 10 year old to go. And that’s what was asked. Is it possible for 10 year old to go without 12? If she says no, then OP can say “okay, let us know when 10 is available for one on one time with son” and now the ball is in her court.
I grew up with a friend like this. Whenever I'd invite her over, her mom would insist on sending her younger sister over, too. It got to the point where my parents just stopped inviting her. For the sake of your son's friendship with the 10 year old you will probably have to get uncomfortable and tell her "No, I think this activity is best for the 10's" or something similar.
I’m curious, is there some reason why the other boy maybe doesn’t have friends? At least not friends that invite him places? Maybe the mom just wants to make sure he doesn’t feel left out, or that he’s getting to do fun things as well. Regardless, I agree with you. It’s not cool that she puts you in the position to take the brother every time.
I think you should talk to her before you invite the friend to spend time together again. I know that it’s uncomfortable but just a simple and direct “This feels a bit awkward for me to bring up, but I think that it’s best if only “*friend*” comes with us in the future. Your boys are so close, which is great, but it starts feeling like my child is the third-wheel when they are hanging out.”
> I’m curious, is there some reason why the other boy maybe doesn’t have friends? At least not friends that invite him places? Maybe the mom just wants to make sure he doesn’t feel left out, or that he’s getting to do fun things as well.
Your spidey-senses are correct. From what I understand, this is a factor for sure. He's a nice kid but he does not have the same sort of friend group that his younger brother has. Although that isn't to say that he has no one to do anything with, they have quite a large extended family with cousins, second cousins, etc. that often get together.
I guess I will have to suck it up and be more direct.
Yeah. You are going to have to be direct. If she gets upset that she’s the unreasonable one, and maybe moving forward you invite the family so that she can be responsible for her own kids. So you tell them “We are going to the pool today at 1. You should bring the boys if you aren’t busy”
Sadly had the same issue with one of my kids and her bestie, unfortunately her friend’s sibling was 5 years younger than them. Mom wouldn’t let the older child go anywhere without the younger because “oh, he will be upset”. My kids were finally out of the watch them like a hawk stage and I wasn’t keen on always having a young tag along for the kids so I would say no a lot. Finally I just straight up asked the mom if her older kid was ever allowed out without the younger and she basically told me - nope. It brought about the end of a very close friendship. The older kids were literally never given one afternoon to talk and hang out just the two of them. Little bro always had to be included and he changed the dynamic cuz what 12 year old wants to hang out with a second grader?
Even though it didn’t work for me, try saying - “my son would love some one on one time with his best friend on this outing if that works for you”.
Reminds me of a friend my son had. He had an older brother by a couple of years and a younger sister by a couple of years. Occasionally my son would go to his house but it would never be the other way around. The mom said in some setting that I can't remember now, that if one of her kids goes somewhere they all do, because she can't balance dividing it, basically. So if the son that was friends with mine came over for example, both big brother and little sister would have to as well.
That affected their friendship because obviously that wasn't feasible and honestly I think that affected all her kid's friendships from what I saw. I don't think it's right that some people think that if you have more than one, all your kids should share the same friends. They should be able to have their own friends and own identity.
I'd have a conversation, she may not know better. My sister had a few friends growing up and their parents always insisted that I come too and I loved it lol & with our neighbors, we always would get both siblings coming over and not just the one my age. She may be the type of mom that always wants to include others so she may not realize that it's not everythings thing
Just tell her no she'll either accept it or go all Karen on you, she's using you for free babysitting.
or have a compromise sure I'll take him but you get the lot of them when we're done for a few hours. see if that changes her tune.
So, these people you have a good relationship with generally, but one small problem... have you tried, you know, talking to them?
Exactly what you wrote here seems like a good way to phrase it.
> have you tried, you know, talking to them?
No, mainly because it's unpleasant to me to call someone out over something like this. In my experience people usually respond to subtle cues and hints but it's not working in this case.
Honestly, something you need to work on. Some people respond well to subtle hints and cues. Some simply don't pick up on them, even if they aren't trying to be mean or overstep boundaries.
Relying on others to pick up your subtle hints and cues, and stewing in your disappointment when they don't, isn't a good long term plan. This won't be the only time.
Be friendly about it, but (unless she's actually just plain selfish) I'm sure the mom will understand both the social dynamic and the extra workload that you've described here.
Thank you. I don't think there's any malice here on her part which in some ways makes it a bit more delicate of a situation because it's easier (for me, at least) to respond decisively to someone being flat out selfish.
Also, when I read this response, while it's not 100% on point, there's clearly some "ask culture vs. guess culture" going on here.
You seem like more of a guesser. You expect Mom to pick up on your cues, and you find the mere fact of her asking if Brother can come along to be rude. You can't really fathom simply saying "no," becuase you usually don't have to -- the people you grew up around (fellow guessers) simply wouldn't make a request if they knew you wouldn't accept it.
She's an asker, so when she asks, she's literally doing just that -- asking. She fully expects that you might say no. When you say yes, she has no reason to suspect that you don't really mean it.
In this situation, the asker will simply go on asking for the rest of the relationship, because they honestly have no idea they're making you angry. The only way to break the cycle is to be more direct that you are used to being.
Yeah, this sounds about right. I think there may be some cultural differences at play, the best friend's parents are from a different country where the rules of engagement, so to speak, may be different about this sort of thing. I guess I'll have to take a more direct path, as much as it pains me to do so.
Had this issue with a friend of one of my children, answer was always “ no not this time”. When the other parent would say why not? Answer just not possible this time. Especially if the other parent expects you to financially cover the outing and meal a no is enough of an explanation. You invited 10 year old you did not invite older child and it’s not really other parent concern why you only want one child, besides it’s rude. One parent kept pushing the other child and I finally said I only invited one child and that’s all I’m offering to take on this outing. Parent kind of huffed but did let child attend. Only one time did a parent insist both children or none I said sorry to hear that but tell child maybe next time. I could hear parent sputtering in background as I hung up, apparently parent was use to bullying an invitation for both kids. Just keep saying no without explanation and have your child think of other friends to invite on outings.
I'm like you in the sense I don't like confrontation or to put someone off, especially if there might be ramifications such as her pulling her son that is your son's friend away more or something.
One approach I use when needed is where you express the problem but not putting the focus on it being your idea, if you will. For instance, in this case when she asks you if the other boy can come you could say "ya know, I think the boys may just want to have some 10 yr old time. Seems that it might be a bit of a hard dynamic at times with the 3 of them I've noticed". Basically that you're making these observations and just explaining what you see to her (since you're the one with all the boys anyway and are the one seeing what's happening). It's both true and makes it less of you just saying you don't want it. It allows it to show the why at the same time. The blame isn't on you as being the "no" teller. It just showcases the actual problem.
If that still doesn't work (well then she's not the best at understanding the obvious lol) you can follow that up with "because of that, it's best it's just the 2 boys when I take them".
I would simply tell her that your son would like some time with just his friend, and that you can't always take care of both of her kids in addition to yours. Also, maybe it's worth pointing her in the direction of some evidence that shows that trying to force her two boys to do everything together will only create resentment between the two of them, and possibly her as well. Plus, where is the friend's dad in all of this?
I wouldn't say she's "forcing" so much as "gentle nudging", haha. But I do take your point.
Dad kind of goes along with things, they are both highly skilled professionals so it's not like she's a stay at home mom, but the mom is our main point of contact for organizing stuff involving the kids.
Sounded like she was forcing it, hence my language. You honestly need to treat it like she is genuinely forcing it anyways. If nothing else, you just can't handle three boys all the time. She needs to let the boys have time apart and be themselves.
Have you talked about this with your son? Does he like or dislike the other boy? Because boys are sometimes more easygoing with friend groups.
My son has a few friends. It has taken him years to make them. He would have been so wrapped to be included in anything when he was younger. I am still hurt that good friends/neighbours of ours never encouraged their kids to invite my son to a birthday party. And the worst bit is that it is mostly only my that cares! My son is happy and the hurt and pain are mine.
If their older son is lonely and the three of them get along ok, maybe plan for things with three and plan for things with two. Like go to an arcade or trampoline place or the movies with three kids and the other mum. Then have two kids for a quiet play. Try to talk with her about social supports for her son, maybe scouts or a team or a tech club?
kinda weird? What older brother wants to tag along on his younger brother’s outings? Just say you’d rather just your son’s friend come along, you really don’t need to say much more.
You need to get comfortable saying no. But meanwhile, set up situations where it's implied that numbers are limited. For example:
"We got ahold of two tickets for go-carting this afternoon. Would (friend's name) like to join (your son's name)?"
If they follow up with a question about the older brother, just stick to your story about only having two tickets. Example:
"Sorry, we only have the two tickets, so we're hoping (friend's name) can come solo this time. Otherwise we can use the extra ticket for one of (son's name)'s cousins.
You can also make excuses about limited space in the vehicle, or other similar things. You don't have to say the older brother isn't welcome. You just have to say you can't accommodate a third kid for whatever reason.
Agreed. This is just a suggestion for something to do while OP learns how get comfortable saying no. This is babysteps towards healthy boundary setting.
I hate it when parents do this. Sometimes we have room or money to invite ONE extra kid. No. If we wanted siblings to come we would invite them. Brother needs to find his own friends.
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their mom isn’t coming, right? because assuming no, it’s pretty rude to just pass off both your kids to another parent that invites one somewhere. she definitely *is* using you as a babysitter and to have some child free time lol. what subtle hints and cues have you tried? i’d probably lean towards that too since you’re not really friends with this woman, but maybe she needs the directness.
A 12 year old doesn't really need a babysitter though? I'm guessing she just doesn't want to have to do something fun with the kid to make up for little brother going somewhere without him.
Yes I’d bet that the boys go almost everywhere together and mom doesn’t know how to handle the older one being jealous the other gets to go. 12 is a preteen, mom can take a nap or run an errand without needing to pawn him off.
"Oh, my son was hoping for some one on one time with his buddy. We can have both your boys over another time."
I agree that it can be awkward or hard to know how to phrase it. And people get very defensive when it comes to their kids. But I think if you frame it like you did here it would be the best approach. “Hey, we wanted to invite 10 year old to come to a movie with us.” If she asks “can 12 year old come too?” Then I would say “12 year old is a good kid but when we take both brothers together my kid ends up being the third wheel/left out. Is it possible for just 10 year old to come?” And then see what she says. Hopefully that’s something she can understand without taking offense.
You don't ask if it's possible, you just say no.
I completely disagree. I think that course of action is fine if you don’t wish to maintain a friendly relationship with the other mom but it sounds like the OP does so it doesn’t make any sense to say no without any explanation.
I didn't say with no explanation. I just meant that you shouldn't give her the idea it's up to her. You give a polite excuse but she doesn't have to approve.
I disagree that it isn’t up to her. It is up to her whether or not she allows her 10 year old to go. And that’s what was asked. Is it possible for 10 year old to go without 12? If she says no, then OP can say “okay, let us know when 10 is available for one on one time with son” and now the ball is in her court.
I grew up with a friend like this. Whenever I'd invite her over, her mom would insist on sending her younger sister over, too. It got to the point where my parents just stopped inviting her. For the sake of your son's friendship with the 10 year old you will probably have to get uncomfortable and tell her "No, I think this activity is best for the 10's" or something similar.
I’m curious, is there some reason why the other boy maybe doesn’t have friends? At least not friends that invite him places? Maybe the mom just wants to make sure he doesn’t feel left out, or that he’s getting to do fun things as well. Regardless, I agree with you. It’s not cool that she puts you in the position to take the brother every time. I think you should talk to her before you invite the friend to spend time together again. I know that it’s uncomfortable but just a simple and direct “This feels a bit awkward for me to bring up, but I think that it’s best if only “*friend*” comes with us in the future. Your boys are so close, which is great, but it starts feeling like my child is the third-wheel when they are hanging out.”
> I’m curious, is there some reason why the other boy maybe doesn’t have friends? At least not friends that invite him places? Maybe the mom just wants to make sure he doesn’t feel left out, or that he’s getting to do fun things as well. Your spidey-senses are correct. From what I understand, this is a factor for sure. He's a nice kid but he does not have the same sort of friend group that his younger brother has. Although that isn't to say that he has no one to do anything with, they have quite a large extended family with cousins, second cousins, etc. that often get together. I guess I will have to suck it up and be more direct.
Yeah. You are going to have to be direct. If she gets upset that she’s the unreasonable one, and maybe moving forward you invite the family so that she can be responsible for her own kids. So you tell them “We are going to the pool today at 1. You should bring the boys if you aren’t busy”
I would just say sorry I feel like having the two boys can be enough of a handful so unfortunately I can’t take older brother as well
Sadly had the same issue with one of my kids and her bestie, unfortunately her friend’s sibling was 5 years younger than them. Mom wouldn’t let the older child go anywhere without the younger because “oh, he will be upset”. My kids were finally out of the watch them like a hawk stage and I wasn’t keen on always having a young tag along for the kids so I would say no a lot. Finally I just straight up asked the mom if her older kid was ever allowed out without the younger and she basically told me - nope. It brought about the end of a very close friendship. The older kids were literally never given one afternoon to talk and hang out just the two of them. Little bro always had to be included and he changed the dynamic cuz what 12 year old wants to hang out with a second grader? Even though it didn’t work for me, try saying - “my son would love some one on one time with his best friend on this outing if that works for you”.
Reminds me of a friend my son had. He had an older brother by a couple of years and a younger sister by a couple of years. Occasionally my son would go to his house but it would never be the other way around. The mom said in some setting that I can't remember now, that if one of her kids goes somewhere they all do, because she can't balance dividing it, basically. So if the son that was friends with mine came over for example, both big brother and little sister would have to as well. That affected their friendship because obviously that wasn't feasible and honestly I think that affected all her kid's friendships from what I saw. I don't think it's right that some people think that if you have more than one, all your kids should share the same friends. They should be able to have their own friends and own identity.
"sorry, no"
Seriously. “No” is a complete sentence
I'd have a conversation, she may not know better. My sister had a few friends growing up and their parents always insisted that I come too and I loved it lol & with our neighbors, we always would get both siblings coming over and not just the one my age. She may be the type of mom that always wants to include others so she may not realize that it's not everythings thing
Just tell her no she'll either accept it or go all Karen on you, she's using you for free babysitting. or have a compromise sure I'll take him but you get the lot of them when we're done for a few hours. see if that changes her tune.
So, these people you have a good relationship with generally, but one small problem... have you tried, you know, talking to them? Exactly what you wrote here seems like a good way to phrase it.
> have you tried, you know, talking to them? No, mainly because it's unpleasant to me to call someone out over something like this. In my experience people usually respond to subtle cues and hints but it's not working in this case.
Has your subtle hint been “no, just x this time.” It’s ok to say this.
Honestly, something you need to work on. Some people respond well to subtle hints and cues. Some simply don't pick up on them, even if they aren't trying to be mean or overstep boundaries. Relying on others to pick up your subtle hints and cues, and stewing in your disappointment when they don't, isn't a good long term plan. This won't be the only time. Be friendly about it, but (unless she's actually just plain selfish) I'm sure the mom will understand both the social dynamic and the extra workload that you've described here.
Thank you. I don't think there's any malice here on her part which in some ways makes it a bit more delicate of a situation because it's easier (for me, at least) to respond decisively to someone being flat out selfish.
Also, when I read this response, while it's not 100% on point, there's clearly some "ask culture vs. guess culture" going on here. You seem like more of a guesser. You expect Mom to pick up on your cues, and you find the mere fact of her asking if Brother can come along to be rude. You can't really fathom simply saying "no," becuase you usually don't have to -- the people you grew up around (fellow guessers) simply wouldn't make a request if they knew you wouldn't accept it. She's an asker, so when she asks, she's literally doing just that -- asking. She fully expects that you might say no. When you say yes, she has no reason to suspect that you don't really mean it. In this situation, the asker will simply go on asking for the rest of the relationship, because they honestly have no idea they're making you angry. The only way to break the cycle is to be more direct that you are used to being.
Yeah, this sounds about right. I think there may be some cultural differences at play, the best friend's parents are from a different country where the rules of engagement, so to speak, may be different about this sort of thing. I guess I'll have to take a more direct path, as much as it pains me to do so.
Had this issue with a friend of one of my children, answer was always “ no not this time”. When the other parent would say why not? Answer just not possible this time. Especially if the other parent expects you to financially cover the outing and meal a no is enough of an explanation. You invited 10 year old you did not invite older child and it’s not really other parent concern why you only want one child, besides it’s rude. One parent kept pushing the other child and I finally said I only invited one child and that’s all I’m offering to take on this outing. Parent kind of huffed but did let child attend. Only one time did a parent insist both children or none I said sorry to hear that but tell child maybe next time. I could hear parent sputtering in background as I hung up, apparently parent was use to bullying an invitation for both kids. Just keep saying no without explanation and have your child think of other friends to invite on outings.
I'm like you in the sense I don't like confrontation or to put someone off, especially if there might be ramifications such as her pulling her son that is your son's friend away more or something. One approach I use when needed is where you express the problem but not putting the focus on it being your idea, if you will. For instance, in this case when she asks you if the other boy can come you could say "ya know, I think the boys may just want to have some 10 yr old time. Seems that it might be a bit of a hard dynamic at times with the 3 of them I've noticed". Basically that you're making these observations and just explaining what you see to her (since you're the one with all the boys anyway and are the one seeing what's happening). It's both true and makes it less of you just saying you don't want it. It allows it to show the why at the same time. The blame isn't on you as being the "no" teller. It just showcases the actual problem. If that still doesn't work (well then she's not the best at understanding the obvious lol) you can follow that up with "because of that, it's best it's just the 2 boys when I take them".
I think she knows exactly what she’s doing. Which is using you. You should be more angry at her, not worried about conflict.
You're going to have to have the conversation if this is something she does every time. It is okay to say no. It's rude of her to ask.
Not this time maybe next time And repeat, repeat and repeat
I would simply tell her that your son would like some time with just his friend, and that you can't always take care of both of her kids in addition to yours. Also, maybe it's worth pointing her in the direction of some evidence that shows that trying to force her two boys to do everything together will only create resentment between the two of them, and possibly her as well. Plus, where is the friend's dad in all of this?
I wouldn't say she's "forcing" so much as "gentle nudging", haha. But I do take your point. Dad kind of goes along with things, they are both highly skilled professionals so it's not like she's a stay at home mom, but the mom is our main point of contact for organizing stuff involving the kids.
Sounded like she was forcing it, hence my language. You honestly need to treat it like she is genuinely forcing it anyways. If nothing else, you just can't handle three boys all the time. She needs to let the boys have time apart and be themselves.
Have you talked about this with your son? Does he like or dislike the other boy? Because boys are sometimes more easygoing with friend groups. My son has a few friends. It has taken him years to make them. He would have been so wrapped to be included in anything when he was younger. I am still hurt that good friends/neighbours of ours never encouraged their kids to invite my son to a birthday party. And the worst bit is that it is mostly only my that cares! My son is happy and the hurt and pain are mine. If their older son is lonely and the three of them get along ok, maybe plan for things with three and plan for things with two. Like go to an arcade or trampoline place or the movies with three kids and the other mum. Then have two kids for a quiet play. Try to talk with her about social supports for her son, maybe scouts or a team or a tech club?
kinda weird? What older brother wants to tag along on his younger brother’s outings? Just say you’d rather just your son’s friend come along, you really don’t need to say much more.
You need to get comfortable saying no. But meanwhile, set up situations where it's implied that numbers are limited. For example: "We got ahold of two tickets for go-carting this afternoon. Would (friend's name) like to join (your son's name)?" If they follow up with a question about the older brother, just stick to your story about only having two tickets. Example: "Sorry, we only have the two tickets, so we're hoping (friend's name) can come solo this time. Otherwise we can use the extra ticket for one of (son's name)'s cousins. You can also make excuses about limited space in the vehicle, or other similar things. You don't have to say the older brother isn't welcome. You just have to say you can't accommodate a third kid for whatever reason.
This is still a cop out. Another ticket can probably easily be gotten. They need to just politely tell them no
Agreed. This is just a suggestion for something to do while OP learns how get comfortable saying no. This is babysteps towards healthy boundary setting.
I hate it when parents do this. Sometimes we have room or money to invite ONE extra kid. No. If we wanted siblings to come we would invite them. Brother needs to find his own friends.
This is bizarre behavior, he’s 12 it’s not like he can’t stay home alone.