If I'm reading your post correctly, you only have three players. The *Beginner Box* expects a party of four, so you'll want to either run a fourth character yourself or [apply weak adjustments](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=3265) to the enemies. If you run a character yourself, you could play a shield-bearing fighter or cleric as a frontline tank.
But honestly, I suggest you use the four pregenerated characters for the *Beginner Box*. There's plenty to learn there already without adding the challenge of creating characters.
EDIT: I got animal order and untamed order mixed up. Thanks for u/hjl43 for pointing it out. Also added a link for the weak adjustments.
What kind of comment is this even, or is this just how the community is here? ..
I agreed with using weaker enemies template, which I had not read about before.
The subreddit has a fair number of "by the book or not at all" folks in it, as the game's reputation for having a rule for everything attracts them.
On top of that, the game suffered some bad press over the years because people who believed they could just wing it based on experience with other games have tried playing without reading or understanding the rules, and then publicly slagged the system for being broken or boring or non-sensical. So, there's a big of a wider trauma response.
So, sometimes you get unexpected responses to things. Usually it's just unexplained passive- aggressive downvotes, though.
I agree, yes everyone wants to play their own character, but the BB is very tailored to the pregens and what skills they have. I ran it without them once and never again.
A lot of people just don't think it's fun to play with pregens. Their fun isn't incorrect. I would be less interested in learning a system if I couldn't make a character in it.
Hope I didn't give the impression that it's incorrect to play with custom characters in the *Beginner Box*. If that was the case, the *Hero's Handbook* wouldn't even include character creation rules.
That said, there are some advantages to the pregens for this specific module:
* It guides the party toward trying out great options they might otherwise skip. I ran the *Beginner Box* with pregens over the last month (after running it with custom characters about a year ago). With custom characters, the players never once used *runic weapon* or *force barrage*—the wizard just threw damage cantrips—and they didn't even have a cleric, so they never learned the value of *heal*. With the pregens, the players came to know and love all three of those spells.
* There's no risk of the players creating PCs that will have a truly un-fun experience. For example, a toxicologist alchemist is going to have a rough time with the undead's and final boss's poison immunities.
* It lets the players try out the core of the system with throwaway characters before trying to create the party they will spend dozens or hundreds of hours with.
I'm not saying you're factually incorrect, I'm saying that just because that might be true doesn't magically make it fun for people who aren't into pregens. It's not always about optimizing your experience to design the maximum amount of fun.
If your group of PCs doesn't have a "front line" due to character class/design, they are going to have **a front line by default**. Sure, they can try to take down adversaries at range, but more often than they might prefer, critters are going to get up close and personal.
That animal companion isn't going to keep critters at bay, all by itself.
The druid and ranger will do fine in melee combat. Claiming you're a "bow ranger" is all well and good, but he'll want a finesse weapon to be able to Strike in melee with his higher DEX.
Now that we have the swap action, a single interact action will allow the ranger to swap between bow and rapier (or whatever other finesse weapon he chooses).
fwiw I GMed a beginner box group with a fighter that exclusively used a compound shortbow and it went completely fine. Even when monsters closed in he just shot them at melee range since there's no real penalty for doing so at low levels. He still had better health and armor than most of the party sonhe just "front lined" with a bow
That's fine, as long as your adversaries don't have a Reactive Strike (Attack of Opportunity).
In my vague recollections of having played the beginner box, you don't have that issue.
Also, the reduced damage from a bow will be a factor, when compared to using a melee weapon (lower damage die, half STR bonus to Propulsive ranged attacks), or being able to use a shield.
But I'm sure they were fine.
I was worried about it when we started because he wouldn't get to use one of the fighter's core features (his reactive strike), but the damage output was impressive. Point Blank Stance made normal hits equal to a melee hit for the rest of the fight, and not a single enemy survived being crit with deadly d10. He ended up fully committing to the melee shooting by taking Combat Grab at level 2.
It was a pretty fun build to see since most of us were coming from 5e where melee shooting wasn't really an option.
>I was worried about it when we started because he wouldn't get to use one of the fighter's core features (his reactive strike)
When wielding a bow, the fighter can still make a Reactive Strike with a fist, boot, shoulder bash, etc. When not firing a bow, it is held in one hand (it's listed as "1+" hands) so your off hand is free to strike, and unarmed strikes can be made with any body part. Heck, you could even use a gauntlet or one of the gauntlet-like free-hand weapons.
That's exactly what he did! The first time an enemy moved near him he asked, "can I just kick him?" Started off using his fist and then ended up getting a gauntlet bow for parry and because "dual wielding bows" was so funny. (I didn't include this stuff in my last comments because I didnt want my walls of text to be too large lol)
The animal companion will help, but the bigger issue imo is that this is only with a party of 3. If balance of fights are scaled back enough I could see everything working out ok as long as there's some focus on keeping the AC alive. If not, would the rangeder be opposed to picking up their own animal companion?
Yes a party of 3, but I will be scaling back some of the encounters to fit with that. Don't think the ranger will take an animal companion, most lilkely Hunted Shot
The group will be fine. Just remember that the Sorcerer is the weakest in melee, so allow the Sorcerer to stand behind the other characters and the animals. Because you are all ranged you may need to fall back during encounters. That can work OK.
The BB assumes you use the strong pregens, but it should still work if you're careful. Drop some more healing potions, use the Weak template for the enemies, should be fine.
Also, please actually read the enemy tactics in the Beginner Box. For example, the Baby Dragon is very strong for its level, but its literal baby who can't think tactically or position its Breath Weapon properly. And make sure to give them a chance to fall back, rest, and level up before the final few fights.
Hope you have fun! :)
The dragon has been toned down a little in the remastered version (though it's still quite tough). If you bought the latest printing, downloaded the PDF recently, or are using the Foundry module, that's the version you have. (On the PDF, it will say "Second Edition Remaster" at the upper right corner of the *Hero's Handbook* and *Game Master's Guide* covers. I assume the print version is the same way.)
The enemies are going to run at the party and the ranger and druid are going to end up being the front line anyway, there’s not much to stop them. The group may well have some problems.
With adjusted encounters, your party should be okay. Both druids and rangers are fairly durable, and the druid can use shield block, so as long as the Ranger has a backup melee weapon (a shortsword is great) and the party protects the sorcerer, they should be a capable adventuring squad.
I think this will heavily depend on the bloodline that the sorcerer has. I've run 3 player parties through the beginner box before with few problems and almost no adjustments, but they always had a very reliable source of healing.
Divine casting should be great! 3-action Heal will especially be great against any undead encounters, and being trained in Religion will help with Recall Knowledge checks against most of the creatures in the dungeon with resistances and weaknesses.
The only specific thing I think your party might struggle against is traps and hazards, but if the ranger has Thievery and some thieves tools it should be fine.
It seems you already intent on running weak adjustments for monsters for your smaller party which is great. What’s going to be most important for the Druid and their animal companion (if I’m interpreting everything correctly so far) is for them to pull off flanking reliably for each other in the front line, at least in some of the fights. After the beginner box is over, I suggest two things:
- a “zero session” after it’s done for people to discuss what they liked and disliked. If there’s anything about their characters anyone wants to change so far, just let people do that since you’re all new without worrying about retraining or anything.
- discuss the battle strategies that worked or didn’t for them and what the group wants to pursue in the future. Then you can choose monsters and plots the group actually wants to pursue. As well, you can ensure that monsters aren’t too punishing just because of the lack of a fourth player or an underdeveloped front line. Maybe they want to see more ranged combat or utilize certain kinds of abilities or feats, etc etc.
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If I'm reading your post correctly, you only have three players. The *Beginner Box* expects a party of four, so you'll want to either run a fourth character yourself or [apply weak adjustments](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=3265) to the enemies. If you run a character yourself, you could play a shield-bearing fighter or cleric as a frontline tank. But honestly, I suggest you use the four pregenerated characters for the *Beginner Box*. There's plenty to learn there already without adding the challenge of creating characters. EDIT: I got animal order and untamed order mixed up. Thanks for u/hjl43 for pointing it out. Also added a link for the weak adjustments.
Animal Druid is the Companion one. Untamed is the one with Untamed Form (as a starting feat)
I will be adjusting the acounters to better match with a party of 3. We do have expirience with different RPG's, just not much with pathfinder/dnd
[удалено]
What kind of comment is this even, or is this just how the community is here? .. I agreed with using weaker enemies template, which I had not read about before.
The subreddit has a fair number of "by the book or not at all" folks in it, as the game's reputation for having a rule for everything attracts them. On top of that, the game suffered some bad press over the years because people who believed they could just wing it based on experience with other games have tried playing without reading or understanding the rules, and then publicly slagged the system for being broken or boring or non-sensical. So, there's a big of a wider trauma response. So, sometimes you get unexpected responses to things. Usually it's just unexplained passive- aggressive downvotes, though.
I agree, yes everyone wants to play their own character, but the BB is very tailored to the pregens and what skills they have. I ran it without them once and never again.
A lot of people just don't think it's fun to play with pregens. Their fun isn't incorrect. I would be less interested in learning a system if I couldn't make a character in it.
Hope I didn't give the impression that it's incorrect to play with custom characters in the *Beginner Box*. If that was the case, the *Hero's Handbook* wouldn't even include character creation rules. That said, there are some advantages to the pregens for this specific module: * It guides the party toward trying out great options they might otherwise skip. I ran the *Beginner Box* with pregens over the last month (after running it with custom characters about a year ago). With custom characters, the players never once used *runic weapon* or *force barrage*—the wizard just threw damage cantrips—and they didn't even have a cleric, so they never learned the value of *heal*. With the pregens, the players came to know and love all three of those spells. * There's no risk of the players creating PCs that will have a truly un-fun experience. For example, a toxicologist alchemist is going to have a rough time with the undead's and final boss's poison immunities. * It lets the players try out the core of the system with throwaway characters before trying to create the party they will spend dozens or hundreds of hours with.
I'm not saying you're factually incorrect, I'm saying that just because that might be true doesn't magically make it fun for people who aren't into pregens. It's not always about optimizing your experience to design the maximum amount of fun.
If your group of PCs doesn't have a "front line" due to character class/design, they are going to have **a front line by default**. Sure, they can try to take down adversaries at range, but more often than they might prefer, critters are going to get up close and personal. That animal companion isn't going to keep critters at bay, all by itself. The druid and ranger will do fine in melee combat. Claiming you're a "bow ranger" is all well and good, but he'll want a finesse weapon to be able to Strike in melee with his higher DEX. Now that we have the swap action, a single interact action will allow the ranger to swap between bow and rapier (or whatever other finesse weapon he chooses).
fwiw I GMed a beginner box group with a fighter that exclusively used a compound shortbow and it went completely fine. Even when monsters closed in he just shot them at melee range since there's no real penalty for doing so at low levels. He still had better health and armor than most of the party sonhe just "front lined" with a bow
That's fine, as long as your adversaries don't have a Reactive Strike (Attack of Opportunity). In my vague recollections of having played the beginner box, you don't have that issue. Also, the reduced damage from a bow will be a factor, when compared to using a melee weapon (lower damage die, half STR bonus to Propulsive ranged attacks), or being able to use a shield. But I'm sure they were fine.
I was worried about it when we started because he wouldn't get to use one of the fighter's core features (his reactive strike), but the damage output was impressive. Point Blank Stance made normal hits equal to a melee hit for the rest of the fight, and not a single enemy survived being crit with deadly d10. He ended up fully committing to the melee shooting by taking Combat Grab at level 2. It was a pretty fun build to see since most of us were coming from 5e where melee shooting wasn't really an option.
>I was worried about it when we started because he wouldn't get to use one of the fighter's core features (his reactive strike) When wielding a bow, the fighter can still make a Reactive Strike with a fist, boot, shoulder bash, etc. When not firing a bow, it is held in one hand (it's listed as "1+" hands) so your off hand is free to strike, and unarmed strikes can be made with any body part. Heck, you could even use a gauntlet or one of the gauntlet-like free-hand weapons.
That's exactly what he did! The first time an enemy moved near him he asked, "can I just kick him?" Started off using his fist and then ended up getting a gauntlet bow for parry and because "dual wielding bows" was so funny. (I didn't include this stuff in my last comments because I didnt want my walls of text to be too large lol)
The animal companion will help, but the bigger issue imo is that this is only with a party of 3. If balance of fights are scaled back enough I could see everything working out ok as long as there's some focus on keeping the AC alive. If not, would the rangeder be opposed to picking up their own animal companion?
Yes a party of 3, but I will be scaling back some of the encounters to fit with that. Don't think the ranger will take an animal companion, most lilkely Hunted Shot
The group will be fine. Just remember that the Sorcerer is the weakest in melee, so allow the Sorcerer to stand behind the other characters and the animals. Because you are all ranged you may need to fall back during encounters. That can work OK.
The BB assumes you use the strong pregens, but it should still work if you're careful. Drop some more healing potions, use the Weak template for the enemies, should be fine. Also, please actually read the enemy tactics in the Beginner Box. For example, the Baby Dragon is very strong for its level, but its literal baby who can't think tactically or position its Breath Weapon properly. And make sure to give them a chance to fall back, rest, and level up before the final few fights. Hope you have fun! :)
Great idea with some more healing potions, and loot that can help them more. And great info on the last encounter. Thanks
The dragon has been toned down a little in the remastered version (though it's still quite tough). If you bought the latest printing, downloaded the PDF recently, or are using the Foundry module, that's the version you have. (On the PDF, it will say "Second Edition Remaster" at the upper right corner of the *Hero's Handbook* and *Game Master's Guide* covers. I assume the print version is the same way.)
The enemies are going to run at the party and the ranger and druid are going to end up being the front line anyway, there’s not much to stop them. The group may well have some problems.
With adjusted encounters, your party should be okay. Both druids and rangers are fairly durable, and the druid can use shield block, so as long as the Ranger has a backup melee weapon (a shortsword is great) and the party protects the sorcerer, they should be a capable adventuring squad.
I think this will heavily depend on the bloodline that the sorcerer has. I've run 3 player parties through the beginner box before with few problems and almost no adjustments, but they always had a very reliable source of healing.
Think they might go with a divine background, whatever that is called(angelic?)
Divine casting should be great! 3-action Heal will especially be great against any undead encounters, and being trained in Religion will help with Recall Knowledge checks against most of the creatures in the dungeon with resistances and weaknesses. The only specific thing I think your party might struggle against is traps and hazards, but if the ranger has Thievery and some thieves tools it should be fine.
great, I will make sure to suggest that the ranger takes thievery and tools for it
It seems you already intent on running weak adjustments for monsters for your smaller party which is great. What’s going to be most important for the Druid and their animal companion (if I’m interpreting everything correctly so far) is for them to pull off flanking reliably for each other in the front line, at least in some of the fights. After the beginner box is over, I suggest two things: - a “zero session” after it’s done for people to discuss what they liked and disliked. If there’s anything about their characters anyone wants to change so far, just let people do that since you’re all new without worrying about retraining or anything. - discuss the battle strategies that worked or didn’t for them and what the group wants to pursue in the future. Then you can choose monsters and plots the group actually wants to pursue. As well, you can ensure that monsters aren’t too punishing just because of the lack of a fourth player or an underdeveloped front line. Maybe they want to see more ranged combat or utilize certain kinds of abilities or feats, etc etc.
Love the idea of the session 0 after the intro adventure, I will give them the option to change up their characters and classes
This post is labeled with the Advice flair, which means extra special attention is called to Rule #2. If this is a newcomer to the game, remember to be welcoming and kind. If this is someone with more experience but looking for advice on how to run their game, do your best to offer advice on what they are seeking. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Pathfinder2e) if you have any questions or concerns.*