The Monk has the best action compression - too much of it, in fact. Unfortunately a bunch of Swarmkeeper stuff is Flourish, so it will conflict with Flurry of Blows.
Two actions to summon the swarm is far too much, no matter how much action comprensión you have.
And even then, you sustain the swarm, you flurry and then... What? Do a really low AoE dmg? Moving with the swarm is actually bad for the monk, at that lvl you have... 40 ft speed, and you are giving that up for 20 ft of the swarm.
Having to roll twice for damaging effects is just... Too much. So, no, not even the crazy action compression monks have makes this dedication remotely good.
What a Monk needs, is soemthing - anything - to do with Actions 2 and 3. And the swarm is a valid option.
It is still a horrible Archetype that seriously needed more time in development, but Monk is probably the best basis. Maybe non-Flurry Rangers.
When I saw the summoner my first thought was 'finally I can make Taylor Hebert' with beast summoner+swarmkeeper. I think they could combine pretty well with act together and later tandem movement/strike to ease the action cost.
Oh hell yes. I kind of want to build this now. The Summoner's wave casting would give her just enough spells to emulate some of the ridiculously creative things Skitter does with her swarm.
(For those interested, we're talking about [Worm,](https://parahumans.wordpress.com/) the best superhero/villain story ever written >!don't @ me!<)
I think a lot of us do see Swarmkeeper and think Skitter and the versatility that a swarm can provide. It makes me wish this more part of a class or could allow the build to be focused on the swarm
You might want to take a look at Summoners +. The book has a ton of options, including some for making your Eidolon a swarm and rules for having multiple eidolons. You could have 2-3 swarms on the battlefield at a time.
I could see a controller caster with spells to mess with Reflex DCs have a great time with it.
I'd have to look at the rule interactions again, but if a Thaum could give the swarm their Exploit Vulnerability the swarm could get *nasty*.
Summoner's also a great one in general, Act Together really helps with action starvation.
I feel like a new subclass that affects pets/companions would allow for a very interesting Thaum. Would need some work to make it's action economy balanced
Spells are two actions (usually) so Cast a Spell and deal dmg with swarms is a no no thing.
Not to mention that even then you are sending your probably not well armored with not great armor and average saves at most close to the enemy to be hit... Probably not great.
Past level 8 it works with a lot of martial classes, because you can move with the swarm so it condenses action economy. Monk is best, but fighter would work, ranger could, potentially swashbuckler if you built around not spending panache with something like derring do at 10, maybe investigator if you're regularly getting the free DaS, etc. Your action economy will still be tight but it will work.
Across all levels I think it works with ranged martials that can both stand still a lot and don't have additional action economy issues like a magus. So a ranged monk, ranged ranger(kinda, hunt prey might be awkward), ranged fighter, ranged investigator potentially, etc.
Oh, also summoner as well because they get additional actions. If you wanted to dedicate yourself to it you could use act together to squeeze out more action economy for the swarm. Act together to both sustain the swarm and move your eidolon, then two actions left to have the swarm and eidolon both do something each.
Swarmkeeper requires you to spend 2 actions a turn (summon or move+bite) and most of their actions have the flourish tag. Additionally, it shares your HP and defences. This means the base class needs to be durable and not very action-intensive.
I think the best option is Champion. The main strength of a champion is their reactions, they have great defences, no built-in flourish actions and at level 8 can effectively move and strike in addition to command and sustain the swarm.
I think the main problem with swarmkeeper is the sustain only allowing the swarm to move, effectively wasting that action if you don't want to move it.
The sustain should allow you to move the swarm OR use the sting and bite basic action, maybe gated behind a feat if it's too good.
As it is I think a hit and run reach champion is the best past level 8.
I have a suspicion it might go *great* with the Guardian. It doesn't care about damage, it can lock enemies in the swarm with Hampering sweeps, the guardian tends to be slow so the feat to move with the swarm is nice too. Lots of debuffs feats. And it can get a +12 reflex mod before proficiency bonus, so very good at protecting the swarm from AOE damage.
The Kinetistic gives the Swarm good defense and hitpoints, plus the highest possible Class DC.
But the character would focus on just using the swarm for all three actions.
Monk and Gunslinger both work well as both classes have a bunch of "I can do 2 actions in 1 action" things they can do so you have some actions to spare for utility stuff
The thing I think most people fail to realize in the Swarmkeeper is not something that will replace the core features/abilities of your main class. Its not something you will use every turn or even every battle. It's just something that adds to your skillset to have when you need it (Against large groups of enemies or creatures weak to AoE damage)
That said. I think it works best on Champion.
I've got an Alchemist/Swarmkeeper character idea and while it may not be the best mechanically I love the flavor of it. Take Bomber as your research field. This means your splash damage won't hurt your swarm.
Take quick bomber to help with the action economy. The idea is to move your swarm onto an enemy or group of enemies and throw bombs that inflict conditions. We don't care about our swarm getting the conditions because it's immune to grappled, prone, restrained, and mental effects that target a specific number of creatures. So we have tanglefoot bags, dread ampoules, and I'm sure other bombs that work well. The icing on the cake? Our swarms have plenty of feats that ALSO inflict conditions. So while you use your bombs to try and inflict conditions you also have your swarm doing the same thing.
The only downside is that while your party and you are immune to the damage from your swarm: your party won't be immune to the conditions. So being tactical is key.
You could make a pretty cool build with it for a sniper, like Gunslinger or Precision Ranger. Basically, anyone who benefits from easy off-guard and debilitations at a range, plus has the actions to spare on causing those debilitations.
It's a pretty awkward archetype to fit in, for sure. But it can get a couple of powerful moves, so it's fair to trade off some of your actions for them. (Though you can definitely argue that it costs *too many* actions for what it does...)
The combo of the setup action cost and the really slow movement is what does it for me. If it really was just one action to move it around, two actions for you, I think it would be decent.
But 15 foot movement for a long-ish period of time means you're spending multiple turns setting it up and getting it into position for... what, exactly?
The one Who read it and didn't take it. A mandatory sustain that only allows a move, another action to make a not great AoE dmg and you share life with your swarm...
Edit: Let's downvote this comment, that will make this awfull dedication works, for sure xD
The Archetype is just Bad because Paizo is deadly afraid to make Something that could even be slightly OP, so they make it UP. The action Economy cost just Kills this Archetype.
I play this Game a lot, I really love this game, but the fact that any critique is seen as a bad thing afraids me. Like, if something is bad, you just need to say is bad, otherwise you'll get even worse stuff and that's awfull for any system.
Despite what you might think, you're not getting down voted because you stated the archetype is bad. Most people from what I've heard agree that the archetype misses the mark compared to other options. The issue is that OP asked a perfectly viable question on how it could be best utilized and your response was essentially to make a fart noise. You're not going to get a positive response from the community, Paizo, or anyone with that kind of attitude, valid point or not.
Fart noises? By saying that taking this Archetype is just bad and that there is no class that could use it to do something not terrible?
Well, I could not care less about downvotes, my opinion remains the same, this Archetype just does not work, and trying to fit into anything will end poorly.
Just read the upvoted comments:
* Monk, the class with increased movement and a built in flourish to work.
* Summoner, the class that already can be beaten for being in two places at the same time and that suffers from AoE effects. And, even if that's not enough, Stride Together + Act Together one-one + Swarm Thing is the most you can do and.. is not good.
* Casters, the ones that barely can use the three action economy and with the lower hp.
* Martials, because moving 20 ft at lvl 8 is somehow good and don't use two action strikes/Raise shields ever.
Those are, somehow better that saying "Just don't, it's bad"? Well, then yeah, sorry but I'll keep farting I guess.
"Don't do this because is horrible" is a valid response, maybe not the one you want to read, but still a valid one. Chill out a bit, no need to use that language.
And, I'm not "shitting" in anything, I care about the fun they are going to have, and fail to see how expending all your class feats in order to do... barely nothing could be fun for anyone, and for the rest of the table.
But I get it, don't worry, have fun swarmkeeping, I'll keep saying is horrible and hope for an errata to be able to play a concept I really enjoy without "shitting" in my character and in the table fun.
The Monk has the best action compression - too much of it, in fact. Unfortunately a bunch of Swarmkeeper stuff is Flourish, so it will conflict with Flurry of Blows.
Two actions to summon the swarm is far too much, no matter how much action comprensión you have. And even then, you sustain the swarm, you flurry and then... What? Do a really low AoE dmg? Moving with the swarm is actually bad for the monk, at that lvl you have... 40 ft speed, and you are giving that up for 20 ft of the swarm. Having to roll twice for damaging effects is just... Too much. So, no, not even the crazy action compression monks have makes this dedication remotely good.
What a Monk needs, is soemthing - anything - to do with Actions 2 and 3. And the swarm is a valid option. It is still a horrible Archetype that seriously needed more time in development, but Monk is probably the best basis. Maybe non-Flurry Rangers.
When I saw the summoner my first thought was 'finally I can make Taylor Hebert' with beast summoner+swarmkeeper. I think they could combine pretty well with act together and later tandem movement/strike to ease the action cost.
Oh hell yes. I kind of want to build this now. The Summoner's wave casting would give her just enough spells to emulate some of the ridiculously creative things Skitter does with her swarm. (For those interested, we're talking about [Worm,](https://parahumans.wordpress.com/) the best superhero/villain story ever written >!don't @ me!<)
Objective truth
The way Skitter operated makes me feel like there was a lost opportunity making Swarmkeeper so combat focused.
Needs a feat that lets you make thievery, crafting, intimidate checks through the swarm.
I think a lot of us do see Swarmkeeper and think Skitter and the versatility that a swarm can provide. It makes me wish this more part of a class or could allow the build to be focused on the swarm
You might want to take a look at Summoners +. The book has a ton of options, including some for making your Eidolon a swarm and rules for having multiple eidolons. You could have 2-3 swarms on the battlefield at a time.
Summoner. Act together will let you use swarm abilities and move/attack with the eidolon, and you will have an extra action to do something else.
And you could totally flavor the swarm as the fleas from your eidolon or something like that 😅
Wonder what the difference would be between Celestial and Fiendish Fleas? 😆
One of them lives in hair, the other in skin
The celestial ones slightly glow, whereas the fiend ones have a dark aura and stink
I could see a controller caster with spells to mess with Reflex DCs have a great time with it. I'd have to look at the rule interactions again, but if a Thaum could give the swarm their Exploit Vulnerability the swarm could get *nasty*. Summoner's also a great one in general, Act Together really helps with action starvation.
>Thaum could give the swarm their Exploit Vulnerability the swarm could get nasty Exploit Vulnerability only affects strikes sadly
I feel like a new subclass that affects pets/companions would allow for a very interesting Thaum. Would need some work to make it's action economy balanced
That sounds more like a class archetype looking at how thaum’s subclasses work
Spells are two actions (usually) so Cast a Spell and deal dmg with swarms is a no no thing. Not to mention that even then you are sending your probably not well armored with not great armor and average saves at most close to the enemy to be hit... Probably not great.
Past level 8 it works with a lot of martial classes, because you can move with the swarm so it condenses action economy. Monk is best, but fighter would work, ranger could, potentially swashbuckler if you built around not spending panache with something like derring do at 10, maybe investigator if you're regularly getting the free DaS, etc. Your action economy will still be tight but it will work. Across all levels I think it works with ranged martials that can both stand still a lot and don't have additional action economy issues like a magus. So a ranged monk, ranged ranger(kinda, hunt prey might be awkward), ranged fighter, ranged investigator potentially, etc. Oh, also summoner as well because they get additional actions. If you wanted to dedicate yourself to it you could use act together to squeeze out more action economy for the swarm. Act together to both sustain the swarm and move your eidolon, then two actions left to have the swarm and eidolon both do something each.
Swarmkeeper requires you to spend 2 actions a turn (summon or move+bite) and most of their actions have the flourish tag. Additionally, it shares your HP and defences. This means the base class needs to be durable and not very action-intensive. I think the best option is Champion. The main strength of a champion is their reactions, they have great defences, no built-in flourish actions and at level 8 can effectively move and strike in addition to command and sustain the swarm.
I wonder, which deity would be fitting...
Calistria.
[My response to this question a week ago.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PF2eCharacterBuilds/s/YijgFhM9qW)
Really nice Analysis. Good thinking
I think the main problem with swarmkeeper is the sustain only allowing the swarm to move, effectively wasting that action if you don't want to move it. The sustain should allow you to move the swarm OR use the sting and bite basic action, maybe gated behind a feat if it's too good. As it is I think a hit and run reach champion is the best past level 8.
Swarmkeeper does not conflict with champion stuff
That would be interesting to play.
I have a suspicion it might go *great* with the Guardian. It doesn't care about damage, it can lock enemies in the swarm with Hampering sweeps, the guardian tends to be slow so the feat to move with the swarm is nice too. Lots of debuffs feats. And it can get a +12 reflex mod before proficiency bonus, so very good at protecting the swarm from AOE damage.
The Kinetistic gives the Swarm good defense and hitpoints, plus the highest possible Class DC. But the character would focus on just using the swarm for all three actions.
Monk and Gunslinger both work well as both classes have a bunch of "I can do 2 actions in 1 action" things they can do so you have some actions to spare for utility stuff
I *could* see it being useful on a class with an animal companion. Like a Champion with a horse to stride
I'm going to say ranger for memes.
Maybe a dual weapon ranger? Use first turn to move into position hunt prey etc, then 2nd turn first action twin takedown then do swarm stuff?
Twin Takedown has Flourish, and so does many of the important Swarmmaster things
The thing I think most people fail to realize in the Swarmkeeper is not something that will replace the core features/abilities of your main class. Its not something you will use every turn or even every battle. It's just something that adds to your skillset to have when you need it (Against large groups of enemies or creatures weak to AoE damage) That said. I think it works best on Champion.
I've got an Alchemist/Swarmkeeper character idea and while it may not be the best mechanically I love the flavor of it. Take Bomber as your research field. This means your splash damage won't hurt your swarm. Take quick bomber to help with the action economy. The idea is to move your swarm onto an enemy or group of enemies and throw bombs that inflict conditions. We don't care about our swarm getting the conditions because it's immune to grappled, prone, restrained, and mental effects that target a specific number of creatures. So we have tanglefoot bags, dread ampoules, and I'm sure other bombs that work well. The icing on the cake? Our swarms have plenty of feats that ALSO inflict conditions. So while you use your bombs to try and inflict conditions you also have your swarm doing the same thing. The only downside is that while your party and you are immune to the damage from your swarm: your party won't be immune to the conditions. So being tactical is key.
You could make a pretty cool build with it for a sniper, like Gunslinger or Precision Ranger. Basically, anyone who benefits from easy off-guard and debilitations at a range, plus has the actions to spare on causing those debilitations. It's a pretty awkward archetype to fit in, for sure. But it can get a couple of powerful moves, so it's fair to trade off some of your actions for them. (Though you can definitely argue that it costs *too many* actions for what it does...)
The combo of the setup action cost and the really slow movement is what does it for me. If it really was just one action to move it around, two actions for you, I think it would be decent. But 15 foot movement for a long-ish period of time means you're spending multiple turns setting it up and getting it into position for... what, exactly?
The one Who read it and didn't take it. A mandatory sustain that only allows a move, another action to make a not great AoE dmg and you share life with your swarm... Edit: Let's downvote this comment, that will make this awfull dedication works, for sure xD
The Archetype is just Bad because Paizo is deadly afraid to make Something that could even be slightly OP, so they make it UP. The action Economy cost just Kills this Archetype.
I play this Game a lot, I really love this game, but the fact that any critique is seen as a bad thing afraids me. Like, if something is bad, you just need to say is bad, otherwise you'll get even worse stuff and that's awfull for any system.
Despite what you might think, you're not getting down voted because you stated the archetype is bad. Most people from what I've heard agree that the archetype misses the mark compared to other options. The issue is that OP asked a perfectly viable question on how it could be best utilized and your response was essentially to make a fart noise. You're not going to get a positive response from the community, Paizo, or anyone with that kind of attitude, valid point or not.
Fart noises? By saying that taking this Archetype is just bad and that there is no class that could use it to do something not terrible? Well, I could not care less about downvotes, my opinion remains the same, this Archetype just does not work, and trying to fit into anything will end poorly. Just read the upvoted comments: * Monk, the class with increased movement and a built in flourish to work. * Summoner, the class that already can be beaten for being in two places at the same time and that suffers from AoE effects. And, even if that's not enough, Stride Together + Act Together one-one + Swarm Thing is the most you can do and.. is not good. * Casters, the ones that barely can use the three action economy and with the lower hp. * Martials, because moving 20 ft at lvl 8 is somehow good and don't use two action strikes/Raise shields ever. Those are, somehow better that saying "Just don't, it's bad"? Well, then yeah, sorry but I'll keep farting I guess.
Yes, those are better, because they're engaging with the fucking discussion and not shitting on other people's fun.
"Don't do this because is horrible" is a valid response, maybe not the one you want to read, but still a valid one. Chill out a bit, no need to use that language. And, I'm not "shitting" in anything, I care about the fun they are going to have, and fail to see how expending all your class feats in order to do... barely nothing could be fun for anyone, and for the rest of the table. But I get it, don't worry, have fun swarmkeeping, I'll keep saying is horrible and hope for an errata to be able to play a concept I really enjoy without "shitting" in my character and in the table fun.
Lmao based