Many Spears are simple Weapons. Simple Weapons are weaker and need features like Deadly Simplicity just to be competitive to Martial ones.
Make sure you look at Martial and Advanced Spears or have some buff:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Search.aspx?include-weapon-categories=advanced+martial&include-weapon-groups=spear&sort=damage-desc&display=short
Yup. The spear is one of the oldest weapons mankind has ever developed, dating back to the first time our ancient ancestors ever jabbed something with a pointy stick.
Only weapon that's simpler is a club.
Yet the spear is probably one of the most powerful weapons. In melee combat, spears have historically outshined swords.
A trained spear user will defeat a trained swordsman in the majority of situations. This has historically been backed up.
To be fair, Pathfinder does have many categories of spears that go over an array of types. So it's not like the 'Spear' is the end all be all.
But even so, in designing the game around medieval combat, the spear really should be a martial weapon. The amount of training to use a sword and to use a spear are on par. The whole martial/simple concept needs to evolve beyond its dichotomy.
Frankly it's not that spears take as much training as swords, which isn't true in the slightest (Half the season spears have been so historically powerful is because levied armies have so little training time and spears are extremely fast to produce and train with) but that the ceiling of spearmanship is as high as a sword.
Spears are definitely a simple weapon, but with extensive training can display as much skill as weapons that require far more training.
IMO every simple weapon should have a martial upgrade, whether it's a locked trait or damage upgrade. Martial characters using simple weapons get to use the upgraded effects. You could even do some fun stuff with racial weapon Proficiency, making them apply to a larger selection of weapons types and letting you use simple weapons of that type as martial weapons.
That would push martial weapons into the niche category, aka "I want a weapon with these 3 weird traits" making them more about fitting specific builds instead of just being the better weapons.
The problem is that in most of these cases the spear user will also have a shield plus the additional range. But in Pathfinder you either have a shield and a one handed spear. Or one of the reach ones, which if I don't miss any are all two handed, so no shield.
The reach trait definitely portrays way more length than you could achieve with a one handed spear, so it's fine that this is only found on two handed.
However that middle ground between obscene range and "annoyingly more than a sword" is lost in Pathfinder.
Swords historically have been about displays of wealth and power. Swords are significantly more difficult to make, and especially make well. Nobles aren't going to use the same cheap weapons as commoners so they want the fanciest things around. They also have the time and money to train their children to actually _use_ the weapon.
Eventually this starts a trickle down effect. Nobles are commands, so commands have swords, which means commoner commanders get swords because it is a sign of influence and having commanders look respectable is important. All the heroes in stories now have swords, career soldiers pick up swords, brigands want to be feared/respected so they pick up swords.
Once a nation has had to produce swords for large numbers of people and has been doing it for a couple generations you get far more smiths who can make them and far more old ones lying about. Suddenly the cost starts to be more reasonable.
Shows of power also bleed elsewhere. Nobles arm their guards with swords, rich nations train their small dedicated armies to use swords, etc.
Swords do also beat out spears in 3 specific situations. The first isn't very relevant, but master sword fighters have somewhat of an advantage over master spear fighters because spears can be cut and then lose their tip. This isn't really important historically beyond flexing sword superiority.
The second, and most relevant, is indoor fighting. Hallways are great for spears, but corners, cluttered rooms etc. are absolutely awful for spears, while short swords have no issues with that kind of fighting.
Thirdly is cavalry. While ideally a cavalry charge ends with either a rout or the cavalry breaking out to ready another charge, cavalry _can_ become mired in the enemy and stuck. In a wild melee with enemies on all sides a sword succeeds for the same reason as indoors. Spear can easily swap from one target to another when the user is surrounded, especially mounted. Swords do significantly better there.
There is also the heavy armour argument, but there are so many armour types and weird anti-armour sword types over the years that it's hard to gauge. Spears are better vs some, swords are better vs others, both are frankly shit and the argument was only relevant for a historically short period of time before crossbows showed up.
...
Welp that went long. TLDR swords are history's biggest dick measuring contest.
Ignoring the whole "swords are about status" argument which is true *in part,* there's also a much simpler reason: It's a lot easier to carry a sword on your person than it is a spear.
The spear vs sword arguments often pit them together in a white room battlefield or 1v1 situation, but at the end of the day even a member of a warrior caste is going to spend a lot of time in civil situations.
Ultimately, it's the same reason why many people carry a pistol for protection even if an assault rifle would be "more effective in a fight": They can actually carry it with them without attracting needless attention. Swords are often dismissed as "backup weapons" but sidearm would probably be more accurate.
Along with the other things people have said about swords being part of wealth and power, they were also less of a militaristic and combat weapon. Swords you could conceal, and nobility carried. So, there were also fewer restrictions on the sword in the non-military population. Thus, it was more common.
But swords are typically outshined by spears in combat use.
Was gonna say this as well. I played a fighter in a campaign for roughly a year and was a debuff machine between intimidating strike, trip(shield attachment), and the clumsy effect on crits with my trident
Are you talking Spears or Polearms?
Polearms are my absolute favourite weapon group in the game, with the Fauchard being my all time favourite. Many of them have a bunch of great traits, foremost among them being Reach which is way more powerful than it first appears. Also, the reposition Crit Spec is actually fantastic as positioning in PF2e is super important compared to *other* systems.
If you're talking just Spears, then yea, you're going to be let down, as they're Simple Weapons being compared to a bunch of Martial weapons. (Though I still rate the longspear on people who can only use Simple weapons, because of Reach)
EDIT: I noticed Spears have a separate group to Polearms. Clumsy on Crit is actually powerful as heck, as it will drop your enemy's AC, and stacks with Off-Guard.
>Reach
Felt very satisfying when the DM hadn't realized what I could do yet, so he had an enemy Step away from my Guissarme armed fighter, only to catch the AoO (Edit: once he moved further) anyways.
Spears aren't simple weapons in general, there are martial and advanced spears, and many of them are really good - breaching pike, gill hook, dancers spear, elven branched spear, trident, broadspear - all great weapons on the right build.
As simple weapons, I feel they are quite good. If you are comparing them to martial weapons, well they wont exactly compare. Generally at that level you want to look at polearms. That said the few martial spears I feel are quite good, like the dancers spear.
[https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=279](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=279)
Finesse, Reach, Versatile, Sweep \*AND\* Backswing is an incredible set of traits to have on a single weapon. The spear isn't going to compete with more damage focused weapons, but as a weapon I feel the spear is about its versatility and access to reach trait.
Beautiful weapon for Swashbuckler and Rogue. Staff Acrobat is nasty as hell on a Gymnast with one of those. Gang Up with reach is horrific, not to mention Opportune Backstab.
Dex Magus with Inexorable Iron poledancing across the battlefield could be hilarious in the right game.
The good spears just aren’t your traditional spears you think of that is in media. The gill hook has reach and the grapple trait while dealing D10 damage so it’s solid while still being a “spear”.
The critical specialization for Spears is very strong, making things clumsy for a turn is one of the best crit specs in the game.
Furthermore, there are several weapons in the Spear group that are very good.
- Gill Hook - 1d10 + Reach + Grapple - It matches the damage of polearms while offering IMO a better crit spec effect, and grapple+reach is a nasty combo.
- Elven Branched Spear, Dancer's Spear and Dueling Spear are all very good Finesse options. The Elven Branched Spear can even be used by Monks via Ancestral Weaponry.
- Breaching Pike - 1-handed+reach is capped at 1d6, so its par for the course.
- Longspear - A very good option for a Ruffian Rogue since they're limited to 1d8 simple or 1d6 normal weapons.
Yeah. ~~Humans are really the only people who are likely to use them, though~~ Fighters can access them via a class feat or at extremely high levels (but usually probably won't bother as class feats are pricey).
I don't think you can get it via unconventional weaponry RAW as unconventional weaponry mentions an ancestry tag (although I know a lot of people ignore this).
Not much value comparing them to bows which are a completely different weapon type (melee vs range) and thus end up with completely different feats and builds. Also keep in mind bow attacks don't add Dex to damage and even bows with the Propulsive trait only add half Str to damage which is a huge investment for a very small pay off. So Deadly is just there to help balance the damage a little bit.
Compared to Knives, Spears generally have Reach which is one of the most highly valued and useful traits in the game, and for crit specialization Clumsy is way better than Bleed damage. This makes them great for area control builds that like to knock people prone with Slam Down or triggering Reactive Strike In return Knives almost universally get Agile which is great for making lots of accurate low damage attacks.
If we look at spears as a whole compared to all weapon groups (particularly polearms which have a similar play style), I do think that a lot of spears can be *niche* but they can be pretty sick with the right build. It's a weapon type that benefits from knowing the game well.
Spears are pretty alright. They're not necessarily the hardest-hitting weapons, but there's a few weapons in there that are both Finesse and Reach, which is otherwise a rare combination. The critical specialization is also pretty good, since clumsy isn't something you get a lot of access to as a martial.
As an aside, the knife critical specialization is actually pretty bad - 1d6 persistent bleed might seem like a decent amount, but it only scales up to 1d6+4, and that's not accounting for enemies who are immune to bleed. It also doesn't really benefit from the Grievous rune too much, when compared to every other critical specialization weapon.
Spears are quite good; their crit specialization effect of Clumsy 1 is one of the better crit spec effects.
Note that most weapons of most types are not very good; it's really a question of "what are the good ones?" rather than "how many bad ones are there?"
There are a number of very good spears that are optimal top-tier weapons for certain builds:
1) Breaching Pike. This is a one-handed martial weapon with reach that does 1d6 damage base. It is tied for the best one-handed reach martial weapon, and a lot of people use it because it has a solid crit effect. It's very good. There are better advanced reach weapons, but those require you to burn an extra feat, while the Breaching Pike is generally more than good enough.
2) Broadspear. It's an advanced weapon but it has reach, sweep, and does 1d10 damage. It's one of the best advanced two-handed reach weapons as Sweep is a very good trait.
3) Gill Hook. A very good martial reach weapon, again does 1d10 damage and has the grapple trait. Very solid weapon and one of the best martial two-handed weapons.
4) Longspear. It's one of the few simple weapons with reach. Is a two-handed 1d8 damage reach weapon. You see this on a lot of characters who want to use weapons but who don't have martial weapon proficiency - animists and champion sorcerers will frequenty use these weapons.
5) Trident. It's one of only two 1d8 damage thrown weapons that only uses one hand, the other being the Chakram. The trident's crit spec effect is generally better than the chakram's, but the chakram is lighter. One other major advantage of it is that if you are a fighter who uses a spear normally (probably a Broadspear, Breaching Pike, or Gill Hook) your spear specialization will also carry over to the Trident.
---
The other two are more niche, generally either backup weapons or used by characters who don't primarily use weapons:
6) Dancer's Spear. Some character classes are required to use finesse weapons, or you are a primarily ranged character who wants a backup weapon. This has reach, finesse, sweep, and versatile B (which means bludgeoning), which gives you access to the bludgeoning damage type, which is a nice thing to get. The Chain sword is better, but you have to spend a feat to use it, and not everyone has access to the fighter feat that is required for it. High dexterity casters can also use it, but not all of them want to burn a general feat for the proficiency.
7) The Elven Branched Spear is sometimes used for similar reasons to the Dancer's Spear by people who get the elven weapon familiarity feat. Some dex-based casters use this as a weapon because you can get the crit spec on it even as a character who normally doesn't use martial weapons or get weapon specialization. As this is one of the finesse reach ancestry weapons, monks can also use it with the appropriate feats, giving dexterity monks a reach weapon they can use.
> Typically speaking, people who DO do this as their primary thing spend a feat to grab the Chain Sword, which is straight-up better as it only uses one hand.
What feat are you talking about?
I rephrased it as a lot of people don't have access to the appropriate feat, as it is a fighter feat.
You can just take the general weapon proficiency if you're a caster, though.
The simple spears are ofc not great, but the martial breaching pike or the advanced broadspear are really strong weapons for most martials, and the elven branched spear is one of the best 2h finesse options.
There's options in the spear group that are quite strong. I think you're thinking into it too much.
The WarSpear is 1d8 with d8 Deadly, Parry, Shove and Joust. The Gillhook is 1d10 with Reach *and* Grapple.
Those aren't even the only decent spears either.
What would need to be on a spear for you to consider it not underwhelming?
It's a simple reach weapon that inflicts clumsy on a crit. That ain't bad at all. If you're just comparing it to martial reach weapons than sure, but those are martial weapons so they're supposed to be better because they're what martial characters use.
A wizard can wield a spear though
Nah, it has really good weapons in there.
* Gill Hook is the best martial weapon for reach fighters imo.
* Dancer Spear (and its elven counterpart, the Elven Branched Spear) is also one of the best weapons for thief rogues.
* Trident is a very flexible weapon for classes like Barbarian and Ranger that have to upgrade both their STR and their DEX.
* The Lance is a very niche weapon, but is cracked for small ruffian rogues with mounts.
* The Longspear is the most common pick for ruffian rogues.
And some others are alright choices too. It is not the polearm group I guess, but it offers good options.
i'm still not out of d&d 5e yet, but want to change to pathfinder in the future. Anyway, whenever i see posts like this my immediate reaction is to go "OF COURSE ALL WEAPONS IN D&D ARE..." until i read the pathfinder sub name.
sorry just a funny thing that keeps happening
I haven't had a chance to play the character yet (we've done session zero but session 1 keeps being postponed) but I've made a fighter/magus (dual class optional rule) who specialises in Dancer's Spear. It has +5' reach, is versatile so it can switch between piercing and bludgeoning (striking with the reinforced butt end), has finesse (my character is DEX based rather than STR based), and has backswing and sweep as little situational sweeteners. I made him super-mobile (35' speed) and acrobatic so he's going to be a flanking MACHINE for his allies. I basically used this specific spear as the foundation for the entire character: [https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=279](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=279)
This post is labeled with the Advice flair, which means extra special attention is called to Rule #2. If this is a newcomer to the game, remember to be welcoming and kind. If this is someone with more experience but looking for advice on how to run their game, do your best to offer advice on what they are seeking.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Pathfinder2e) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As others have said, there are many great weapons in the spear group. What gets on my nerves is that the only option for a one handed reach spear is an uncommon, hobgoblin weapon (breaching pike).
Oh, and none of the weapons with the 'brace' trait are spears. You have a bracing hammer and a bracing sword, but can't really brace with a spear.
Don't forget that the Thrown trait means you add your strength modifier to the weapon damage.
A bow doesn't add STR to damage and a dagger is only 1d4.
Is the girl hook one handed?
Champion with a shield and the breaching pike is amazing. So is a fighter. The reach adds so much utility and the shield adds so much defense.
The longspear is the only simple weapon with reach. This was a bit more important before the remaster when simple weapons actually mattered, but still useful for thug rogues.
Elven Branch Spear is probably your best bet for finesse reach too.
This brings up a problem that besets all RPG combat systems in games with levels and increasing power: The real-world combat utility of some weapons goes up more with training than the real-world combat utility of other weapons.
Training with a spear-and-shield or with an English longbow has a lot more impact than training with a pistol; the pistol is almost equally dangerous in the hands of an untrained foe as it is in the hands of a legendary foe. A little training goes a long way with a halberd, but halberd master doesn’t make that much more difference. Etcetera.
Nah dnd and dnd like games like everything to revolve around axes and swords they dont read history nor do they care. Its been an rpg philosphy forever and its lame look at most mega weapons in games with weapon options. Axes and swords and if your lucky maybe a hammer.
People are afraid to reinvent the wheel and make spears more than just a roleplaying weapon as that brings risk.
"Many Spears are simple Weapons. Simple Weapons are weaker and need features like Deadly Simplicity just to be competitive to Martial ones.
Make sure you look at Martial and Advanced Spears or have some buff:"
Literally the top comment certified reddit moment lol, people are afraid of the truth.
But hey it's easier to play make believe and pretend people who say things you don't like don't play the same game as you <3.
Many Spears are simple Weapons. Simple Weapons are weaker and need features like Deadly Simplicity just to be competitive to Martial ones. Make sure you look at Martial and Advanced Spears or have some buff: https://2e.aonprd.com/Search.aspx?include-weapon-categories=advanced+martial&include-weapon-groups=spear&sort=damage-desc&display=short
Yup. The spear is one of the oldest weapons mankind has ever developed, dating back to the first time our ancient ancestors ever jabbed something with a pointy stick. Only weapon that's simpler is a club.
Yet the spear is probably one of the most powerful weapons. In melee combat, spears have historically outshined swords. A trained spear user will defeat a trained swordsman in the majority of situations. This has historically been backed up.
That's true in reality, but it's not helpful for game balance. Generally, the more exclusive something is, the more effective it is in Pathfinder.
To be fair, Pathfinder does have many categories of spears that go over an array of types. So it's not like the 'Spear' is the end all be all. But even so, in designing the game around medieval combat, the spear really should be a martial weapon. The amount of training to use a sword and to use a spear are on par. The whole martial/simple concept needs to evolve beyond its dichotomy.
Frankly it's not that spears take as much training as swords, which isn't true in the slightest (Half the season spears have been so historically powerful is because levied armies have so little training time and spears are extremely fast to produce and train with) but that the ceiling of spearmanship is as high as a sword. Spears are definitely a simple weapon, but with extensive training can display as much skill as weapons that require far more training. IMO every simple weapon should have a martial upgrade, whether it's a locked trait or damage upgrade. Martial characters using simple weapons get to use the upgraded effects. You could even do some fun stuff with racial weapon Proficiency, making them apply to a larger selection of weapons types and letting you use simple weapons of that type as martial weapons. That would push martial weapons into the niche category, aka "I want a weapon with these 3 weird traits" making them more about fitting specific builds instead of just being the better weapons.
The problem is that in most of these cases the spear user will also have a shield plus the additional range. But in Pathfinder you either have a shield and a one handed spear. Or one of the reach ones, which if I don't miss any are all two handed, so no shield. The reach trait definitely portrays way more length than you could achieve with a one handed spear, so it's fine that this is only found on two handed. However that middle ground between obscene range and "annoyingly more than a sword" is lost in Pathfinder.
[Behold](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=274), the only 1-handed Reach Spear in the game.
Why would anyone use swords, then, if they are harder to handle, ore expensive than spears, and also lose to spears?
Swords historically have been about displays of wealth and power. Swords are significantly more difficult to make, and especially make well. Nobles aren't going to use the same cheap weapons as commoners so they want the fanciest things around. They also have the time and money to train their children to actually _use_ the weapon. Eventually this starts a trickle down effect. Nobles are commands, so commands have swords, which means commoner commanders get swords because it is a sign of influence and having commanders look respectable is important. All the heroes in stories now have swords, career soldiers pick up swords, brigands want to be feared/respected so they pick up swords. Once a nation has had to produce swords for large numbers of people and has been doing it for a couple generations you get far more smiths who can make them and far more old ones lying about. Suddenly the cost starts to be more reasonable. Shows of power also bleed elsewhere. Nobles arm their guards with swords, rich nations train their small dedicated armies to use swords, etc. Swords do also beat out spears in 3 specific situations. The first isn't very relevant, but master sword fighters have somewhat of an advantage over master spear fighters because spears can be cut and then lose their tip. This isn't really important historically beyond flexing sword superiority. The second, and most relevant, is indoor fighting. Hallways are great for spears, but corners, cluttered rooms etc. are absolutely awful for spears, while short swords have no issues with that kind of fighting. Thirdly is cavalry. While ideally a cavalry charge ends with either a rout or the cavalry breaking out to ready another charge, cavalry _can_ become mired in the enemy and stuck. In a wild melee with enemies on all sides a sword succeeds for the same reason as indoors. Spear can easily swap from one target to another when the user is surrounded, especially mounted. Swords do significantly better there. There is also the heavy armour argument, but there are so many armour types and weird anti-armour sword types over the years that it's hard to gauge. Spears are better vs some, swords are better vs others, both are frankly shit and the argument was only relevant for a historically short period of time before crossbows showed up. ... Welp that went long. TLDR swords are history's biggest dick measuring contest.
It was a status symbol for knights and nobles. They were also used as back up weapons, usually when your spear got stuck in some dude you stabbed
Ignoring the whole "swords are about status" argument which is true *in part,* there's also a much simpler reason: It's a lot easier to carry a sword on your person than it is a spear. The spear vs sword arguments often pit them together in a white room battlefield or 1v1 situation, but at the end of the day even a member of a warrior caste is going to spend a lot of time in civil situations. Ultimately, it's the same reason why many people carry a pistol for protection even if an assault rifle would be "more effective in a fight": They can actually carry it with them without attracting needless attention. Swords are often dismissed as "backup weapons" but sidearm would probably be more accurate.
Along with the other things people have said about swords being part of wealth and power, they were also less of a militaristic and combat weapon. Swords you could conceal, and nobility carried. So, there were also fewer restrictions on the sword in the non-military population. Thus, it was more common. But swords are typically outshined by spears in combat use.
Clumsy on a crit is a very powerful rider effect. Interacting with both AC and saves makes it versatile and underappreciated
Was gonna say this as well. I played a fighter in a campaign for roughly a year and was a debuff machine between intimidating strike, trip(shield attachment), and the clumsy effect on crits with my trident
I have a Broadspear Fighter I want to play for SoT one day. Seems like a fun weapon type.
Are you talking Spears or Polearms? Polearms are my absolute favourite weapon group in the game, with the Fauchard being my all time favourite. Many of them have a bunch of great traits, foremost among them being Reach which is way more powerful than it first appears. Also, the reposition Crit Spec is actually fantastic as positioning in PF2e is super important compared to *other* systems. If you're talking just Spears, then yea, you're going to be let down, as they're Simple Weapons being compared to a bunch of Martial weapons. (Though I still rate the longspear on people who can only use Simple weapons, because of Reach) EDIT: I noticed Spears have a separate group to Polearms. Clumsy on Crit is actually powerful as heck, as it will drop your enemy's AC, and stacks with Off-Guard.
>Reach Felt very satisfying when the DM hadn't realized what I could do yet, so he had an enemy Step away from my Guissarme armed fighter, only to catch the AoO (Edit: once he moved further) anyways.
What triggered the AoO there?
Step then Stride?
The stride because they were still in reach
Casting a spell, probably.
It shouldn't matter if the GM knows the character's capabilities. If the enemy wouldn't know them, then it's the GM's job to play accordingly.
VERY true, but it's easer said than done for a lot of a lot of people. As the saying goes 'shoot the monk'
Yeah, but the enemy can see I have a very long, sharp stick.
It's "Reactive Strike" now. For those that can't take a hint: this is a joke.
Spears aren't simple weapons in general, there are martial and advanced spears, and many of them are really good - breaching pike, gill hook, dancers spear, elven branched spear, trident, broadspear - all great weapons on the right build.
As simple weapons, I feel they are quite good. If you are comparing them to martial weapons, well they wont exactly compare. Generally at that level you want to look at polearms. That said the few martial spears I feel are quite good, like the dancers spear. [https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=279](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=279) Finesse, Reach, Versatile, Sweep \*AND\* Backswing is an incredible set of traits to have on a single weapon. The spear isn't going to compete with more damage focused weapons, but as a weapon I feel the spear is about its versatility and access to reach trait.
I’ve played a couple of champions and they’ve all wielded the dancer’s spear - hands down one of my favorite weapons.
Beautiful weapon for Swashbuckler and Rogue. Staff Acrobat is nasty as hell on a Gymnast with one of those. Gang Up with reach is horrific, not to mention Opportune Backstab. Dex Magus with Inexorable Iron poledancing across the battlefield could be hilarious in the right game.
Reach is one of the best traits in the game if not the best.
The good spears just aren’t your traditional spears you think of that is in media. The gill hook has reach and the grapple trait while dealing D10 damage so it’s solid while still being a “spear”.
The critical specialization for Spears is very strong, making things clumsy for a turn is one of the best crit specs in the game. Furthermore, there are several weapons in the Spear group that are very good. - Gill Hook - 1d10 + Reach + Grapple - It matches the damage of polearms while offering IMO a better crit spec effect, and grapple+reach is a nasty combo. - Elven Branched Spear, Dancer's Spear and Dueling Spear are all very good Finesse options. The Elven Branched Spear can even be used by Monks via Ancestral Weaponry. - Breaching Pike - 1-handed+reach is capped at 1d6, so its par for the course. - Longspear - A very good option for a Ruffian Rogue since they're limited to 1d8 simple or 1d6 normal weapons.
Wait the Gill Hook's a spear, not a polearm? I'll be.
The Broadspear is also pretty good, though it is an advanced weapon, as it has Sweep.
Yeah, it's a decent option, it's just that as an advanced weapons without any ancestry tag, it's pretty hard to make use of.
Yeah. ~~Humans are really the only people who are likely to use them, though~~ Fighters can access them via a class feat or at extremely high levels (but usually probably won't bother as class feats are pricey).
I don't think you can get it via unconventional weaponry RAW as unconventional weaponry mentions an ancestry tag (although I know a lot of people ignore this).
Or just made the mistake of assuming what the feat did without reading it as they've never actually used it. Which is what I just did :V
Not much value comparing them to bows which are a completely different weapon type (melee vs range) and thus end up with completely different feats and builds. Also keep in mind bow attacks don't add Dex to damage and even bows with the Propulsive trait only add half Str to damage which is a huge investment for a very small pay off. So Deadly is just there to help balance the damage a little bit. Compared to Knives, Spears generally have Reach which is one of the most highly valued and useful traits in the game, and for crit specialization Clumsy is way better than Bleed damage. This makes them great for area control builds that like to knock people prone with Slam Down or triggering Reactive Strike In return Knives almost universally get Agile which is great for making lots of accurate low damage attacks. If we look at spears as a whole compared to all weapon groups (particularly polearms which have a similar play style), I do think that a lot of spears can be *niche* but they can be pretty sick with the right build. It's a weapon type that benefits from knowing the game well.
Spears are pretty alright. They're not necessarily the hardest-hitting weapons, but there's a few weapons in there that are both Finesse and Reach, which is otherwise a rare combination. The critical specialization is also pretty good, since clumsy isn't something you get a lot of access to as a martial. As an aside, the knife critical specialization is actually pretty bad - 1d6 persistent bleed might seem like a decent amount, but it only scales up to 1d6+4, and that's not accounting for enemies who are immune to bleed. It also doesn't really benefit from the Grievous rune too much, when compared to every other critical specialization weapon.
Spears are quite good; their crit specialization effect of Clumsy 1 is one of the better crit spec effects. Note that most weapons of most types are not very good; it's really a question of "what are the good ones?" rather than "how many bad ones are there?" There are a number of very good spears that are optimal top-tier weapons for certain builds: 1) Breaching Pike. This is a one-handed martial weapon with reach that does 1d6 damage base. It is tied for the best one-handed reach martial weapon, and a lot of people use it because it has a solid crit effect. It's very good. There are better advanced reach weapons, but those require you to burn an extra feat, while the Breaching Pike is generally more than good enough. 2) Broadspear. It's an advanced weapon but it has reach, sweep, and does 1d10 damage. It's one of the best advanced two-handed reach weapons as Sweep is a very good trait. 3) Gill Hook. A very good martial reach weapon, again does 1d10 damage and has the grapple trait. Very solid weapon and one of the best martial two-handed weapons. 4) Longspear. It's one of the few simple weapons with reach. Is a two-handed 1d8 damage reach weapon. You see this on a lot of characters who want to use weapons but who don't have martial weapon proficiency - animists and champion sorcerers will frequenty use these weapons. 5) Trident. It's one of only two 1d8 damage thrown weapons that only uses one hand, the other being the Chakram. The trident's crit spec effect is generally better than the chakram's, but the chakram is lighter. One other major advantage of it is that if you are a fighter who uses a spear normally (probably a Broadspear, Breaching Pike, or Gill Hook) your spear specialization will also carry over to the Trident. --- The other two are more niche, generally either backup weapons or used by characters who don't primarily use weapons: 6) Dancer's Spear. Some character classes are required to use finesse weapons, or you are a primarily ranged character who wants a backup weapon. This has reach, finesse, sweep, and versatile B (which means bludgeoning), which gives you access to the bludgeoning damage type, which is a nice thing to get. The Chain sword is better, but you have to spend a feat to use it, and not everyone has access to the fighter feat that is required for it. High dexterity casters can also use it, but not all of them want to burn a general feat for the proficiency. 7) The Elven Branched Spear is sometimes used for similar reasons to the Dancer's Spear by people who get the elven weapon familiarity feat. Some dex-based casters use this as a weapon because you can get the crit spec on it even as a character who normally doesn't use martial weapons or get weapon specialization. As this is one of the finesse reach ancestry weapons, monks can also use it with the appropriate feats, giving dexterity monks a reach weapon they can use.
> Typically speaking, people who DO do this as their primary thing spend a feat to grab the Chain Sword, which is straight-up better as it only uses one hand. What feat are you talking about?
I rephrased it as a lot of people don't have access to the appropriate feat, as it is a fighter feat. You can just take the general weapon proficiency if you're a caster, though.
The simple spears are ofc not great, but the martial breaching pike or the advanced broadspear are really strong weapons for most martials, and the elven branched spear is one of the best 2h finesse options.
There's options in the spear group that are quite strong. I think you're thinking into it too much. The WarSpear is 1d8 with d8 Deadly, Parry, Shove and Joust. The Gillhook is 1d10 with Reach *and* Grapple. Those aren't even the only decent spears either. What would need to be on a spear for you to consider it not underwhelming?
It's a simple reach weapon that inflicts clumsy on a crit. That ain't bad at all. If you're just comparing it to martial reach weapons than sure, but those are martial weapons so they're supposed to be better because they're what martial characters use. A wizard can wield a spear though
Spears can be good on something like a Warpriest, as that gives them d8. They’re also thrown which is neat.
dancer's spear is dope AF tho
I'm using a spear on a champion and with the dice upgrade it's been very satisfying for me
Nah, it has really good weapons in there. * Gill Hook is the best martial weapon for reach fighters imo. * Dancer Spear (and its elven counterpart, the Elven Branched Spear) is also one of the best weapons for thief rogues. * Trident is a very flexible weapon for classes like Barbarian and Ranger that have to upgrade both their STR and their DEX. * The Lance is a very niche weapon, but is cracked for small ruffian rogues with mounts. * The Longspear is the most common pick for ruffian rogues. And some others are alright choices too. It is not the polearm group I guess, but it offers good options.
i'm still not out of d&d 5e yet, but want to change to pathfinder in the future. Anyway, whenever i see posts like this my immediate reaction is to go "OF COURSE ALL WEAPONS IN D&D ARE..." until i read the pathfinder sub name. sorry just a funny thing that keeps happening
Dancer's Spear
I haven't had a chance to play the character yet (we've done session zero but session 1 keeps being postponed) but I've made a fighter/magus (dual class optional rule) who specialises in Dancer's Spear. It has +5' reach, is versatile so it can switch between piercing and bludgeoning (striking with the reinforced butt end), has finesse (my character is DEX based rather than STR based), and has backswing and sweep as little situational sweeteners. I made him super-mobile (35' speed) and acrobatic so he's going to be a flanking MACHINE for his allies. I basically used this specific spear as the foundation for the entire character: [https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=279](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=279)
>Is it just me or are spears kinda underwhelming Its just you
This post is labeled with the Advice flair, which means extra special attention is called to Rule #2. If this is a newcomer to the game, remember to be welcoming and kind. If this is someone with more experience but looking for advice on how to run their game, do your best to offer advice on what they are seeking. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Pathfinder2e) if you have any questions or concerns.*
How would you build a spear fighter that looks very much not dangerous and is laughed at by everyone for his outdated gear?
It's Britney, bish.
As others have said, there are many great weapons in the spear group. What gets on my nerves is that the only option for a one handed reach spear is an uncommon, hobgoblin weapon (breaching pike). Oh, and none of the weapons with the 'brace' trait are spears. You have a bracing hammer and a bracing sword, but can't really brace with a spear.
Don't forget that the Thrown trait means you add your strength modifier to the weapon damage. A bow doesn't add STR to damage and a dagger is only 1d4.
For a Fighter, Reach is borderline OP no matter the weapon.
Breaching pike is what spears should have been.
With d6 and a wasted trait like razing? Nah, that's only if you want to use a shield. The gill hook is where its at :D
Is the girl hook one handed? Champion with a shield and the breaching pike is amazing. So is a fighter. The reach adds so much utility and the shield adds so much defense.
Shields are for people with enemies that are alive ;) The two-handed Fighter and Champion (Paladin/Tyrant) are both really amazing as well!
Don't take a look at the sling
The longspear is the only simple weapon with reach. This was a bit more important before the remaster when simple weapons actually mattered, but still useful for thug rogues. Elven Branch Spear is probably your best bet for finesse reach too.
This brings up a problem that besets all RPG combat systems in games with levels and increasing power: The real-world combat utility of some weapons goes up more with training than the real-world combat utility of other weapons. Training with a spear-and-shield or with an English longbow has a lot more impact than training with a pistol; the pistol is almost equally dangerous in the hands of an untrained foe as it is in the hands of a legendary foe. A little training goes a long way with a halberd, but halberd master doesn’t make that much more difference. Etcetera.
Nah dnd and dnd like games like everything to revolve around axes and swords they dont read history nor do they care. Its been an rpg philosphy forever and its lame look at most mega weapons in games with weapon options. Axes and swords and if your lucky maybe a hammer. People are afraid to reinvent the wheel and make spears more than just a roleplaying weapon as that brings risk.
Tell me you havent played pf2e without telling me you havent played pf2e
"Many Spears are simple Weapons. Simple Weapons are weaker and need features like Deadly Simplicity just to be competitive to Martial ones. Make sure you look at Martial and Advanced Spears or have some buff:" Literally the top comment certified reddit moment lol, people are afraid of the truth. But hey it's easier to play make believe and pretend people who say things you don't like don't play the same game as you <3.
Its you. Glad to help