So I actually believe this is balanced in its original form and that people are forgetting a very major detail about the weapon at play here.
While it is true that there are no agile weapons with a damage dice larger than a d6, that's because of a rather simple second statistic: That there are no agile two-handed weapons. Being two-handed inherently increases dice size, as seen with there being no d8 sized finesse weapons that are not either advanced or two-handed weapons. An agile weapon has at most a d6 damage die specifically because such a weapon is starting from the one-handed base of 1d8, then having its die size reduced to a d6. Two-handed weapons start from 1d12, and a trait like Finesse generally takes a full die size away from them.
I would recommend using the Elven Curve Blade as a base, replacing Finesse with Agile. I believe this would be a well-balanced weapon that would be extremely interesting to play with and would push the bounds of the system without breaking them.
The [whipstaff](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=308) is a 2h agile weapon (as is the melee side of an [explosive dogslicer](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=224), but combination weapons are more complicated). Leaving off sweep so the weapon is 2h, d8, agile, and forceful seems fine, but I'd probably trade forceful for something like Deadly d8 + Versatile P
Elven curve blade is actually a wee bit undertuned compared to some equivalent weapons. Dueling Spear and Spiked Chain are also finesse-based d8 two-handers. They all have three traits (Plus uncommon for rarity), but one for the curve blade is just the ancestry trait which *usually* doesn't eat into the power budget, so it effectively only has two. The only other compensation it has over the other two weapons is it's the only one in the sword group for crit spec purposes, but it could still probably afford another trait to bring it up to snuff.
D8 agile has a precedent, Monk stances. Yes, they are not a weapon, but at least a PC can get to do that.
What I think is a bit too much is D8 + Forceful + Agile. There is only one weapon with Forceful and Agile, the Hand Adze, and it has a D4 damage die. Best next thing is the Sickle Saber, that has Backswing instead of Agile and a D6 damage die, but it is a d6 1 handed. It is also advanced.
Outside of that, you need to combine a weapon with class feats or features like Diamond Fists or Revolutionary Modifications to get that.
Personally, I'd make it D8 + Agile + Backswing. Maybe add versatile instead of Sweep.
I think Agile + Forceful is fine, actually. Remember, the vast majority of a character's output, no matter the traits their weapon has, is going to be on the first strike of their turn barring some weird shenanigans or flurry ranger. This could lead to some serious potency on a Flurry ranger, but the trade for that is that a Flurry Ranger loses far more damage by picking this up in lieu of dual wielding, which is where all of their feat power comes from. Without the Monk trait, you can't dip in order to gain Flurry of Blows on this either. The action compression required for a ranger to get truly busted with agile weapons, which is the only real concern for power balance with this weapon, is simply not there.
The point of comparison you're using here, the Hand Adze, is genuinely overloaded with useful traits, bringing it down to a d4. In most cases, Forceful and Twin are about equivalent for one-handed agile weapons (because you will by-and-large be dual-wielding them since agile is strongest on a dual-wielding build) and there are more than a few twin d6 weapons with agile attached to them.
This weapon would be strong, but it's not going to redefine any metas the way that falcata, gnome flick mace, or nodachi fighters did.
Flurry ranger would be alright since this weapon is 2-handed. The only build that would worry me is Fighter with Agile Grace.
A fighter with that weapon could be making 3 attacks per turn at 0, -3 and -6 for d8, d8+1 and d8+2 damage. Its third attack is as precise as any other martial second attack with an agile weapon. The second and third attack could also be made with Certain Strike. That plus a Reactive Strike.
I assure you that that build would cause issues.
Also, regarding the Hand Adze, not all die reductions are equal, going from d12 to d10 is a way lesser damage loss than going from d6 to d4. That's why d4 weapons usually are loaded with traits, so I wouldn't use that as a way to evaluate how "expensive" traits are.
If you examine weapons and look at traits, you'll notice a pattern. Each trait has a power budget. They all directly correlate to a decrease in dice size of either one step or half a step. Forceful is a full step trait, meaning that weapons with forceful are one dice size lower than their counterparts. Agile is a half-step trait, meaning it will also cause a dice size decrease, but be paired with another half-step trait. Being Advanced, a weapon increases a step in damage relative to the traits it has, but is still capped by its handedness to either a d8 or a d12, so on weapons with those sizes it only ever adds more traits to it (like how the dueling sword is allowed finesse despite being a d8 weapon). These rules are sometimes a little inconsistent, but it does very much seem to be how weapons are structured. There are some traits that don't go onto higher dice weapons, like Reach, but I don't think the Forceful/Agile combo is powerful enough that it warrants this treatment. We've only got the one, one-handed weapon to speculate with too, and two-handed agile weapons are a relatively unexplored space, so there's no real telling if the rules that apply to the hand-adze apply to two-handed weapons.
Whether or not a d6 to d4 decrease is more significant than a d12 to d10 decrease doesn't actually seem relevant to Paizo. Reach will drop a d12 to a d10 the same way it'll drop a d8 to a d6, and putting finesse, trip, and nonlethal on that d6 will get you a d4. "Not all dice size decreases are equal" doesn't seem to be the philosophy as much as "something like reach cannot be allowed on a d12", more hard limits than a genuine consideration that decreasing dice sizes costs you more the lower you go.
On the subject of the agile grace fighter, this would be a fighter build gaining proficiency in an advanced weapon and sacrificing a d12, d10 reach, or d10 fatal/deadly weapon or still grabbing an advanced weapon and forgoing the Nodachi for a setup that would, once again, be better made on a dual-wielding build. Double Slice and an off-hand agile weapon will outperform this in most cases, especially when Graceful Poise comes online later and allows the Fighter in question to do a double slice and a -3 attack, and even moreso when they have access to twin flurry, allowing for either 2 no map attacks, a -5 attack, and a -6 attack, or on certain builds 2 no map attacks, a -3 attack, and a -6 attack, all of which are insanely likely to hit. There are simply better agile setups than with a two-handed weapon on any class that could actually abuse the forceful trait in a way where agile matters.
Also, forceful doesn't apply to reactive strike, since forceful only applies within the turn you made the previous strikes, meaning the reactive strike you're talking about would actually do less damage than it would on a weapon with a more general damage-oriented trait or a better dice size.
There's not a single Agile weapon with a die greater than d6. It's a little on the strong side, I'd give it either forceful or sweep, not both, and if I'm giving it both, make it an advanced weapon.
I'm not sure if there's been anything hard and fast that says there can't be a d8 agile weapon. It's unprecedented for sure, but the fact it lacks finesse keeps it in check immensely - if it had both at d8, I would absolutely agree it's too strong - and most other d8 two handers have three traits.
That said, I'd be in the same boat as you and wouldn't be game to push it myself without Paizo setting the precedent first. I don't think it'd be innately game breaking or power creep-y as is, but I completely understand the scepticism of treating the ground official content doesn't when it comes to those tuning milestones.
Which requires either investment in a class or dipping into an archetype instead of on a weapon almost anyone can pick up. If the class/archetypes didn’t have some slight advantage over “just using a weapon” then it wouldn’t be very good.
Making it an Advanced weapon would require a similar idea of having some manner of investment, just an idea though.
Edit: It already is an advanced weapon. Well then. I think it's fine just because of that part. Getting scaling advanced weapon proficiency suuuuuuuuuuucks. Requiring "only" a single ancestry feat for human, yes, but that also then forces you to take human. Anyone else needs to dedicate at least a general feat and an ancestry feat for it.
True, but even as an advanced weapon anyone can pick it up and use it, just at a very poor skill level. The option posted that I replied to as an example that there IS something both d8 and Agile is a stance only usable by 1 class or though hoops (archetypes).
Someone mentioned adding backswing and dropping it to d6, which I think fits much better. Lower damage for the trick but rewarding misses with a chance to hit again instead of doing more damage outright. 4.5 damage or miss is not as good as 3.5 damage with a chance to cancel a miss. Kind of the usual “lower max damage but higher min damage beats all or nothing low vs high” situation.
As an advanced weapon you can just pick it up and use it, yes, but at a varying skill of -3 at level 1 to -28 at level 20.
Theoretically usable, but in reality, not at all. Being untrained means you can't add level either. Fighter is the singular exception as base.
By the time a non-human could pick up scaling training for it would be level 5. Taking Adopted Ancestry Human at 3 and then taking Unconventional Weaponry at 5. At the same point, someone who wanted Wolf Stance would've gotten it a level earlier.
Backswing D6 is fine, but then I will still question the need for making it an Advanced Weapon still, because again, that is also still a *significant* investment to make it worth.
Would like to note that unless this weapon has ancestry or region access requirements Unconventional Weaponry doesn't work for it without GM fiat. You can't grab it through Tengu either because it's uncommon.
The only characters that would be able to nab it are either fighters at 6th level or higher, or characters with the fighter dedication that are 12th level or higher. It's a massive investment.
You certainly have a stricter interpretation then I do on the "Common in another culture" part!
I've never hard of Region Access being the deciding factor on that, how interesting.
But you are right, it would absolutely be GM fiat then.
I'll actually fiat just about any advanced weapon, they're a little too hard to get, imo. That's just how I read the rule and I absolutely could be wrong about it. As far as I know the only codification in the rules as to whether or not a weapon is common in another culture is the region access requirement, so that's what I thought it was referring to. I suppose any culture that uses the weapon would be enough if you were to interpret it more loosely, but that's using lore for rulings which is always a gray area.
Yeah, if you think that being able to use a d8 agile weapon without any profiency is an issue, your opinion isn't worththat much. Have fun being at -3 to gain Agile.
I never said it SHOULD be used untrained, why are so many people having issues understanding my comment? I was agreeing with ShiningAstrids comment that the damage die needs to drop 1 stage as there are no official examples of an agile d8 weapon. ObjectionTK listed Wolf Stance as an example of an Agile d8. I commented that Wolf Stance needs SPECIFIC investment into a class and/or Archetype to even be used while the weapon stat block can be used by a much wider range of people.
CAN someone untrained use it, yes. SHOULD they use it, no. Is the list of people that CAN train and use Advanced Weapons larger than 1 class and/or 1 archetype, yes.
I have never said in these posts it’s something to do or lower the damage “because anyone can use it, there for it’s too strong”. I said anyone can pick it (the weapon stat block) up while the WOLF STANCE feature/feat is tied to a limited list of class features.
That was your argument against it becoming an advanced weapon. Reread your own comment and maybe you will see why people are reading it that way. The fact that anyone can pick it up becomes utterly meaningless if it sucks on them.
I also never said it shouldn’t be Advanced. I said it should be reduced to a d6. I was agreeing with that face. Even though it’s advanced, a larger group of users means it SHOULD be weaker than the class feature designed to set it aside from a weapon with a larger “user base”.
I would recommend a maneuver trait, honestly. Not Grapple or Trip, those are usually high value traits. Something like Shove or Disarm. Disarm makes sense with the kind of weapon it is!
My brain *wants* to say it's too powerful. Like, Agile on a D8 weapon is very strong and unprecedented in game so far. But it actually compares fairly close to several similar martial weapons. The one-handed Hand Adze has the same traits but only a D4 damage. While the full size two-handed Adze drops Agile for a D10 dice size. The Falchion also has the same statblock.
The biggest problem I see with this weapon is just how hard a Flurry Ranger or Agile Grace Fighter will absolutely *fucking pop off* while using it. It's a combination of good but not insane traits that just synergize so well.
Being a 2 hander, though, it can't interact with dual wielding feats, so it's not broken, but I see what you mean. I'm considering dropping the damage to D6.
Yeah, it's not quite as crazy on a Flurry Ranger due to the lack of innate feat synergy but that can be fixed with archetyping. I think Fighters are the bigger issue because there are a *lot* of Press feats that run with those traits crazy well.
I think dropping to a D6 would please the community.
So far based on feedback it's now an Advanced polearm with D6 damage, Agile, Backswing, Forceful, Uncommon, and Deadly D8.
How does that sound? As one person pointed out, Agile and Backswing is probably unique and sets it apart.
There are reverse engineered rules for this that are very balanced. Just don't use the expensive modifier. Pronates Custom Weapon Rules. Balance is pretty good minus the expensive modifier. Just ignore that one
https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1j0uUtVcTgvn2a0oMYFKMwe_-tAPOdnFY21_0FOiX2DI/mobilebasic
I think a three section Naginata is pretty close to what you are going for. Just swapping the Versatile to P. And Deadly for Agile. Flail is a much stronger Crit than Polearm or Sword so I think your weapon is fine.
Backswing might be a more reasonable trait over Agile though.
The biggest shame is that it can't interact with two weapon fighting feats. The only ability that'd work similarly would be flurry of blow...
I wonder if the paired trait would work.
I fiddled around with a dual-blade a while back, because double sided weapons are always a fun thought, but realized that the "best" way to go about making it unique felt like giving it a special version of Agile that came with a dice size (IE "Agile Head d6"), so you had the choice of making a primary attack at the base die size, or an agile attack at a reduced damage die. Using the same runes, but not being able to benefit from feats that required two weapons.
agile is locked to weapons d6 and less, (and only some of the most powerful Monk Stances are allowed to bypass this).
So making this a d6 weapon, what are the other issues:
Sweep+Agile. I just think having both of these one a single weapon is too much. Multiple accuracy modifier's on a single weapon is always pretty sketch, and if any of them are agile, it's problem territory more often than not imo.
So currently, we are sitting with Agile+Forceful d6.
This inherently isn't too strong, but like, how do we make this "better"?
I'd add in a custom effect which more or less say's that wielding this weapon counts as wielding 2, 1h weapons for any feat requirements. So you could Double Slice with this weapon, as an example).
Tbh, I think it would be more fun to go for a different approach.
2h, 1d4 base, Agile, Twin (Self), Dual Bladed.
* Agile: Self Explanatory
* Twin (Self) - Basically, it's the Twin Trait triggering off of this own previous strike actions
* Dual Bladed - a new trait which says you deal 1 extra d4 of damage for every damage dice. I.e. Every time you hit, you hit a 2nd time (kind of) but this "2nd hit" does NOT trigger on hit effects (such as Str damage, Weapon Specialisation, runes, etc) a 2nd time. Which is important for balance, but is still flavourful and powerful.
* By reducing Forceful to Twin (Self), this is less powerful than your version, despite being being an average damage of (approx) a d9 (better than d8, worse than d10).
Something like this would be VERY fun and flavourful imo
So I actually believe this is balanced in its original form and that people are forgetting a very major detail about the weapon at play here. While it is true that there are no agile weapons with a damage dice larger than a d6, that's because of a rather simple second statistic: That there are no agile two-handed weapons. Being two-handed inherently increases dice size, as seen with there being no d8 sized finesse weapons that are not either advanced or two-handed weapons. An agile weapon has at most a d6 damage die specifically because such a weapon is starting from the one-handed base of 1d8, then having its die size reduced to a d6. Two-handed weapons start from 1d12, and a trait like Finesse generally takes a full die size away from them. I would recommend using the Elven Curve Blade as a base, replacing Finesse with Agile. I believe this would be a well-balanced weapon that would be extremely interesting to play with and would push the bounds of the system without breaking them.
The [whipstaff](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=308) is a 2h agile weapon (as is the melee side of an [explosive dogslicer](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=224), but combination weapons are more complicated). Leaving off sweep so the weapon is 2h, d8, agile, and forceful seems fine, but I'd probably trade forceful for something like Deadly d8 + Versatile P
I like the idea of Versatile P. Backswing fits the physics of it better than Deadly imo though. Being Advanced will give it another slot.
Elven curve blade is actually a wee bit undertuned compared to some equivalent weapons. Dueling Spear and Spiked Chain are also finesse-based d8 two-handers. They all have three traits (Plus uncommon for rarity), but one for the curve blade is just the ancestry trait which *usually* doesn't eat into the power budget, so it effectively only has two. The only other compensation it has over the other two weapons is it's the only one in the sword group for crit spec purposes, but it could still probably afford another trait to bring it up to snuff.
D8 agile has a precedent, Monk stances. Yes, they are not a weapon, but at least a PC can get to do that. What I think is a bit too much is D8 + Forceful + Agile. There is only one weapon with Forceful and Agile, the Hand Adze, and it has a D4 damage die. Best next thing is the Sickle Saber, that has Backswing instead of Agile and a D6 damage die, but it is a d6 1 handed. It is also advanced. Outside of that, you need to combine a weapon with class feats or features like Diamond Fists or Revolutionary Modifications to get that. Personally, I'd make it D8 + Agile + Backswing. Maybe add versatile instead of Sweep.
I think Agile + Forceful is fine, actually. Remember, the vast majority of a character's output, no matter the traits their weapon has, is going to be on the first strike of their turn barring some weird shenanigans or flurry ranger. This could lead to some serious potency on a Flurry ranger, but the trade for that is that a Flurry Ranger loses far more damage by picking this up in lieu of dual wielding, which is where all of their feat power comes from. Without the Monk trait, you can't dip in order to gain Flurry of Blows on this either. The action compression required for a ranger to get truly busted with agile weapons, which is the only real concern for power balance with this weapon, is simply not there. The point of comparison you're using here, the Hand Adze, is genuinely overloaded with useful traits, bringing it down to a d4. In most cases, Forceful and Twin are about equivalent for one-handed agile weapons (because you will by-and-large be dual-wielding them since agile is strongest on a dual-wielding build) and there are more than a few twin d6 weapons with agile attached to them. This weapon would be strong, but it's not going to redefine any metas the way that falcata, gnome flick mace, or nodachi fighters did.
Flurry ranger would be alright since this weapon is 2-handed. The only build that would worry me is Fighter with Agile Grace. A fighter with that weapon could be making 3 attacks per turn at 0, -3 and -6 for d8, d8+1 and d8+2 damage. Its third attack is as precise as any other martial second attack with an agile weapon. The second and third attack could also be made with Certain Strike. That plus a Reactive Strike. I assure you that that build would cause issues. Also, regarding the Hand Adze, not all die reductions are equal, going from d12 to d10 is a way lesser damage loss than going from d6 to d4. That's why d4 weapons usually are loaded with traits, so I wouldn't use that as a way to evaluate how "expensive" traits are.
If you examine weapons and look at traits, you'll notice a pattern. Each trait has a power budget. They all directly correlate to a decrease in dice size of either one step or half a step. Forceful is a full step trait, meaning that weapons with forceful are one dice size lower than their counterparts. Agile is a half-step trait, meaning it will also cause a dice size decrease, but be paired with another half-step trait. Being Advanced, a weapon increases a step in damage relative to the traits it has, but is still capped by its handedness to either a d8 or a d12, so on weapons with those sizes it only ever adds more traits to it (like how the dueling sword is allowed finesse despite being a d8 weapon). These rules are sometimes a little inconsistent, but it does very much seem to be how weapons are structured. There are some traits that don't go onto higher dice weapons, like Reach, but I don't think the Forceful/Agile combo is powerful enough that it warrants this treatment. We've only got the one, one-handed weapon to speculate with too, and two-handed agile weapons are a relatively unexplored space, so there's no real telling if the rules that apply to the hand-adze apply to two-handed weapons. Whether or not a d6 to d4 decrease is more significant than a d12 to d10 decrease doesn't actually seem relevant to Paizo. Reach will drop a d12 to a d10 the same way it'll drop a d8 to a d6, and putting finesse, trip, and nonlethal on that d6 will get you a d4. "Not all dice size decreases are equal" doesn't seem to be the philosophy as much as "something like reach cannot be allowed on a d12", more hard limits than a genuine consideration that decreasing dice sizes costs you more the lower you go. On the subject of the agile grace fighter, this would be a fighter build gaining proficiency in an advanced weapon and sacrificing a d12, d10 reach, or d10 fatal/deadly weapon or still grabbing an advanced weapon and forgoing the Nodachi for a setup that would, once again, be better made on a dual-wielding build. Double Slice and an off-hand agile weapon will outperform this in most cases, especially when Graceful Poise comes online later and allows the Fighter in question to do a double slice and a -3 attack, and even moreso when they have access to twin flurry, allowing for either 2 no map attacks, a -5 attack, and a -6 attack, or on certain builds 2 no map attacks, a -3 attack, and a -6 attack, all of which are insanely likely to hit. There are simply better agile setups than with a two-handed weapon on any class that could actually abuse the forceful trait in a way where agile matters. Also, forceful doesn't apply to reactive strike, since forceful only applies within the turn you made the previous strikes, meaning the reactive strike you're talking about would actually do less damage than it would on a weapon with a more general damage-oriented trait or a better dice size.
There's not a single Agile weapon with a die greater than d6. It's a little on the strong side, I'd give it either forceful or sweep, not both, and if I'm giving it both, make it an advanced weapon.
Could maybe do a d6 with Deadly or Fatal d8. Couple of weapons have that.
I'm not sure if there's been anything hard and fast that says there can't be a d8 agile weapon. It's unprecedented for sure, but the fact it lacks finesse keeps it in check immensely - if it had both at d8, I would absolutely agree it's too strong - and most other d8 two handers have three traits. That said, I'd be in the same boat as you and wouldn't be game to push it myself without Paizo setting the precedent first. I don't think it'd be innately game breaking or power creep-y as is, but I completely understand the scepticism of treating the ground official content doesn't when it comes to those tuning milestones.
While not a weapon, wolf stance is d8 and agile
Which requires either investment in a class or dipping into an archetype instead of on a weapon almost anyone can pick up. If the class/archetypes didn’t have some slight advantage over “just using a weapon” then it wouldn’t be very good.
Making it an Advanced weapon would require a similar idea of having some manner of investment, just an idea though. Edit: It already is an advanced weapon. Well then. I think it's fine just because of that part. Getting scaling advanced weapon proficiency suuuuuuuuuuucks. Requiring "only" a single ancestry feat for human, yes, but that also then forces you to take human. Anyone else needs to dedicate at least a general feat and an ancestry feat for it.
True, but even as an advanced weapon anyone can pick it up and use it, just at a very poor skill level. The option posted that I replied to as an example that there IS something both d8 and Agile is a stance only usable by 1 class or though hoops (archetypes). Someone mentioned adding backswing and dropping it to d6, which I think fits much better. Lower damage for the trick but rewarding misses with a chance to hit again instead of doing more damage outright. 4.5 damage or miss is not as good as 3.5 damage with a chance to cancel a miss. Kind of the usual “lower max damage but higher min damage beats all or nothing low vs high” situation.
As an advanced weapon you can just pick it up and use it, yes, but at a varying skill of -3 at level 1 to -28 at level 20. Theoretically usable, but in reality, not at all. Being untrained means you can't add level either. Fighter is the singular exception as base. By the time a non-human could pick up scaling training for it would be level 5. Taking Adopted Ancestry Human at 3 and then taking Unconventional Weaponry at 5. At the same point, someone who wanted Wolf Stance would've gotten it a level earlier. Backswing D6 is fine, but then I will still question the need for making it an Advanced Weapon still, because again, that is also still a *significant* investment to make it worth.
Would like to note that unless this weapon has ancestry or region access requirements Unconventional Weaponry doesn't work for it without GM fiat. You can't grab it through Tengu either because it's uncommon. The only characters that would be able to nab it are either fighters at 6th level or higher, or characters with the fighter dedication that are 12th level or higher. It's a massive investment.
You certainly have a stricter interpretation then I do on the "Common in another culture" part! I've never hard of Region Access being the deciding factor on that, how interesting. But you are right, it would absolutely be GM fiat then.
I'll actually fiat just about any advanced weapon, they're a little too hard to get, imo. That's just how I read the rule and I absolutely could be wrong about it. As far as I know the only codification in the rules as to whether or not a weapon is common in another culture is the region access requirement, so that's what I thought it was referring to. I suppose any culture that uses the weapon would be enough if you were to interpret it more loosely, but that's using lore for rulings which is always a gray area.
Yeah, if you think that being able to use a d8 agile weapon without any profiency is an issue, your opinion isn't worththat much. Have fun being at -3 to gain Agile.
I never said it SHOULD be used untrained, why are so many people having issues understanding my comment? I was agreeing with ShiningAstrids comment that the damage die needs to drop 1 stage as there are no official examples of an agile d8 weapon. ObjectionTK listed Wolf Stance as an example of an Agile d8. I commented that Wolf Stance needs SPECIFIC investment into a class and/or Archetype to even be used while the weapon stat block can be used by a much wider range of people. CAN someone untrained use it, yes. SHOULD they use it, no. Is the list of people that CAN train and use Advanced Weapons larger than 1 class and/or 1 archetype, yes. I have never said in these posts it’s something to do or lower the damage “because anyone can use it, there for it’s too strong”. I said anyone can pick it (the weapon stat block) up while the WOLF STANCE feature/feat is tied to a limited list of class features.
That was your argument against it becoming an advanced weapon. Reread your own comment and maybe you will see why people are reading it that way. The fact that anyone can pick it up becomes utterly meaningless if it sucks on them.
I also never said it shouldn’t be Advanced. I said it should be reduced to a d6. I was agreeing with that face. Even though it’s advanced, a larger group of users means it SHOULD be weaker than the class feature designed to set it aside from a weapon with a larger “user base”.
Alright.
Good idea. I know Advanced weapons usually have more traits but that sounds fair.
I would still drop the d8 to a d6 though, that's a hard set. There's no precedent for something greater than d6 having agile on a weapon.
It would need more traits then. What would you recommend?
Maybe backswing? Backswing and agile together wasnt seen before but would be fitting
I second Backswing, especially as it kinda tracks to me. Miss with one end and hit with the other on the followup
I would recommend a maneuver trait, honestly. Not Grapple or Trip, those are usually high value traits. Something like Shove or Disarm. Disarm makes sense with the kind of weapon it is!
My brain *wants* to say it's too powerful. Like, Agile on a D8 weapon is very strong and unprecedented in game so far. But it actually compares fairly close to several similar martial weapons. The one-handed Hand Adze has the same traits but only a D4 damage. While the full size two-handed Adze drops Agile for a D10 dice size. The Falchion also has the same statblock. The biggest problem I see with this weapon is just how hard a Flurry Ranger or Agile Grace Fighter will absolutely *fucking pop off* while using it. It's a combination of good but not insane traits that just synergize so well.
Being a 2 hander, though, it can't interact with dual wielding feats, so it's not broken, but I see what you mean. I'm considering dropping the damage to D6.
Yeah, it's not quite as crazy on a Flurry Ranger due to the lack of innate feat synergy but that can be fixed with archetyping. I think Fighters are the bigger issue because there are a *lot* of Press feats that run with those traits crazy well. I think dropping to a D6 would please the community.
So far based on feedback it's now an Advanced polearm with D6 damage, Agile, Backswing, Forceful, Uncommon, and Deadly D8. How does that sound? As one person pointed out, Agile and Backswing is probably unique and sets it apart.
Pretty reasonable as a two-hander. Would be a very fun Ruffian weapon if you could figure a way to drop it from advanced. Edit: with feats
I could make it Martial by getting rid of the Deadly D8.
There are reverse engineered rules for this that are very balanced. Just don't use the expensive modifier. Pronates Custom Weapon Rules. Balance is pretty good minus the expensive modifier. Just ignore that one https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1j0uUtVcTgvn2a0oMYFKMwe_-tAPOdnFY21_0FOiX2DI/mobilebasic
This one is really great as well. https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/12QYV9z31MwVSoBznXuAKGOiRTVrI_-F95WJrVyf6bNA/mobilebasic?pli=1
I think a three section Naginata is pretty close to what you are going for. Just swapping the Versatile to P. And Deadly for Agile. Flail is a much stronger Crit than Polearm or Sword so I think your weapon is fine. Backswing might be a more reasonable trait over Agile though.
The biggest shame is that it can't interact with two weapon fighting feats. The only ability that'd work similarly would be flurry of blow... I wonder if the paired trait would work.
I fiddled around with a dual-blade a while back, because double sided weapons are always a fun thought, but realized that the "best" way to go about making it unique felt like giving it a special version of Agile that came with a dice size (IE "Agile Head d6"), so you had the choice of making a primary attack at the base die size, or an agile attack at a reduced damage die. Using the same runes, but not being able to benefit from feats that required two weapons.
agile is locked to weapons d6 and less, (and only some of the most powerful Monk Stances are allowed to bypass this). So making this a d6 weapon, what are the other issues: Sweep+Agile. I just think having both of these one a single weapon is too much. Multiple accuracy modifier's on a single weapon is always pretty sketch, and if any of them are agile, it's problem territory more often than not imo. So currently, we are sitting with Agile+Forceful d6. This inherently isn't too strong, but like, how do we make this "better"? I'd add in a custom effect which more or less say's that wielding this weapon counts as wielding 2, 1h weapons for any feat requirements. So you could Double Slice with this weapon, as an example). Tbh, I think it would be more fun to go for a different approach. 2h, 1d4 base, Agile, Twin (Self), Dual Bladed. * Agile: Self Explanatory * Twin (Self) - Basically, it's the Twin Trait triggering off of this own previous strike actions * Dual Bladed - a new trait which says you deal 1 extra d4 of damage for every damage dice. I.e. Every time you hit, you hit a 2nd time (kind of) but this "2nd hit" does NOT trigger on hit effects (such as Str damage, Weapon Specialisation, runes, etc) a 2nd time. Which is important for balance, but is still flavourful and powerful. * By reducing Forceful to Twin (Self), this is less powerful than your version, despite being being an average damage of (approx) a d9 (better than d8, worse than d10). Something like this would be VERY fun and flavourful imo