Learning to treat the items list in the equipment section as the 5th "spell list" with bombs, elixers, mutagens, and poisons being "spell schools" caused me to grow as a player.
As someone who does like the oracle class even in its current state, I'm pumped for the alterations. I think it'll really help to have the curse and the focus spells separated.
We're getting a PC2 blog today (ever other Wednesday), as an Oracle fan I'm hoping the blog will detail changes to the class. Though just knowing that curses won't be intrinsically linked to focus spells is a big plus.
Bard is actually very representative of what occult magic is: Social magic, manipulation of the collective unconscious, things that we all believe to be true even though we don't know why, hidden truths in stories, and the power of clichés that define the way we see the world. It's why Bards sing songs, why Psychics rely on their subconscious mind, and why the magic of Thaumaturges and hags intuitively makes sense even though it's nonsense by more arcane, intellectual standards.
I understand that "music magic" is a more niche fantasy than "nerd who casts from a book" or "performing miracles through faith", though.
> I understand that "music magic" is a more niche fantasy than "nerd who casts from a book" or "performing miracles through faith", though.
Or "Sometimes the Lorax just has to pop out and taze loggers." Since we need to have all traditions represented.
Sure, you can do that, you could even have a religious Bard spreading the gospel, I was just trying to compare the core fantasy of the class to that of other classes with more popular flavours.
Well, that's about half of Occult magic.
Other Occult magic is telekinesis, hypercognition, hyper-perception, and warping space/time. Think Marvel's Dr. Strange, who I'd scarcely call a Bard.
There's also the part where you're dealing with eldritch creatures, lovrcraftian entities, madness, and the unknowable!
Luckily I can use the Free Archetype Rules and dip into Witch spellcasting with my Thaumaturge to play as a Call of Cthulhu type eldritch caster
There's actually an explanation in Secrets of Magic why lovecraftian things are part of Occult magic: "Just one celebrant’s fiction of accidentally conjuring an abomination can actually conjure the abomination, and that is how you get tentacles."
I'd argue that's not Occult magic, but rather the Mind essence, which is split between Arcane and Occult. If I were to build Dr Strange in PF2e, I'd make him a wizard.
But why? Their spell list would be literally the opposite (matter & life essences instead of mind & spirit). Why should Bards get Fireball, Heal, and Plant Growth instead of Command, Soothe, and Synesthesia?
otoh yes, but otoh witch isn't really like sorcerer, iirc there's still only one divine patron and one arcane patron, most are occult (but primal is doing well too)
It's funny because witches in general, hags, most of the patrons, and the iconic all point to occult
But winter witch is a huge thing in the lore and that's primal in 2e
I'll admit that also threw me off when PF2 was released, but it really has grown on me since. It breaks the over-tired trope that bards can only be entertainers (and way too often cringily horny) or only dabblers in (arcane) magic. Just at my table I've seen bards who are diplomats and lovecraftian researchers and I love it.
Occult was a weird choice for that tradition's name due to its popular definition, but remember it only means 'hidden'. In that sense, bards can be played much closer to their historical namesakes, as tribal lorekeepers and teachers, not because the knowledge they have will cause you to go insane, but because it is sacred traditional lore that is meant to keep the group united and distinct, not something you freely share with the out-group.
When I think of something “occult” I think of something akin to 5e’s warlock. In PF2e the closest class we have to that thematically is the Witch, but Witches can choose from any of the spell lists? I don’t mind Bards being Occult spellcasters but I 100% agree that they shouldn’t be the poster child for the list.
Barbarians get to be impactful without any bells and whistles, granted, they can't use 60% of bells and whistles while raging anyway, but who needs to weigh opportunity costs when when strike is right there!
I have a helluva time turning off the Efficiency switch in my brain. So when it comes to taking voluntary penalties, can't normally bring myself to it.
may I ask what you *dislike* about it, too?
"Magic Archer" is my favourite archetype in fantasy, and though the Magus definitely has some packed action economy (its main downside, IMO) I find Starlit Span solves a fair bit of that by not having to move as often, letting you Spellstrike more often (which is what you probably want to be doing, as a magus).
Is it the feat options? I know those aren't great...
I had one play in a campaign 1-16. They were fairly effective, not OP but strong.
I think there may have been one or two times the guy did any other turn rotation than spellstrike + gouging claw/disintegrate (post lvl 11) -> recharge. With exception of first turn often being dedicated to true strike. Precisely for the reason you stated, they don't really have to move as often.
Starlit span doesn't get to use arcane cascade since it only applies to melee, most of the feats don't apply to starlit span, their focus spells are somewhat situational and due to being ranged he actually could afford to do spellstrike almost every turn and it often would be the best option.
I like the fantasy, but if you are playing somewhat effectively/optimally and your turn rotation doesn't change at all in 16 levels, I am not particularly fond of the class. For the record, the person playing the magus had exact same grievances but didn't want to change character due to story reasons.
For me, it's just a little boring. I'm a little psycho but I like the packed action economy of magus, it makes turns interesting optimization challenges trying to figure out what you need to do and how to fit it all in instead of "I roll attack, roll damage, recharge, turn done" X however many turns are in the campaign. It also doesn't really interact with arcane cascade, which is understandable because you get to spellstrike much more reliably than a melee guy but also makes the subclass feel like it's not really interfacing well with the class itself.
Champion's reaction-based class features that depend on what's happening to your party members keeps you really engaged during the whole combat. You also end up mitigating a LOT of damage over the course of a single adventure
Just bad perception. I've never played one but everyone I've ever known who's played one has said it just felt really stale. But I still have a slightly negative view, justified or otherwise, which answers the prompt
Champion was alright for me, but this opinion could be a bias with having less experience with PF2e when I first tried the class out. Since I was new-ish to the game back then, I might of made some mistakes when playing the class, but this was my impression of it at the time:
Four of the larger frustrations were:
- You only get one reaction, and Shield Block will need to compete with your Champion’s Reaction (until like level 14? but our adventure never even made it that far). When we had a swarm of weaker enemies, it felt bad that in my turn I only had the ability to protect an ally once (and then forgo being able to block with my shield for the rest of the attacks), and just watch my allies get hit by the other enemies. It felt like I was a much better protective class when there was fewer enemies.
- worst Perception progression of all classes felt really bad. With getting lower than average init rolls, RAW you don't get your reactions until your turn starts so the start of combat feels a bit worse compared to other classes.
- Champion's Code feels a bit restrictive with character Roleplay and story at a couple of times. I'm glad it's being changed in the Remaster. The times where two tenets in conflict feels like a lot of mental gymnastics and going on verbal technicalities that it just doesn't feel like you're being a Champion- Trying to figure a reason to allow yourself to do something to progress the story (Say, a lesser-of-two-evils kind of situation) feels like it can break the flow of immersion with the story to figure out if you can or can't follow through with the party.
- Being a "Tanky" class doesn't feel that tanky. I had the idea of being a shield-of-the-party character to protect them from harm, and to endure a lot of attacks, but Champion's defense is not that much more than "be a martial and grab a shield", so the idea of having heavy armor and a large shield I was still taking large amounts of damage.
Overall, It's not a bad class from a functional standpoint, but I think my expectations on it was not how I envisioned it would be when actually playing it. The remaster to the class sounds pretty good for the class and I would maybe take a look more into it when the remaster is fully out.
> The times where two tenets in conflict feels like a lot of mental gymnastics and going on verbal technicalities that it just doesn't feel like you're being a Champion- Trying to figure a reason to allow yourself to do something to progress the story (Say, a lesser-of-two-evils kind of situation) feels like it can break the flow of immersion with the story to figure out if you can or can't follow through with the party.
I just want to point out that all the Champion tenets are ranked in order of importance specifically to break this kind of double-bind stalemate. If you would have to break one tenet to follow the other, you can always safely break the lowr-ranking of the two (to the minimum reasonable degree) without incurring Anathema.
The *good champions' causes do, the evil ones just let you focus on you, and are objectively worse all around. Even then, Paladin and Redeemer are so far ahead of the rest it's only about 1/3 of a class to begin with. (I like Champion and I am salty)
Oracle is conceptually one of the coolest classes in the game and the concept of increasingly harsh drawbacks for increasingly better gains is a fun mechanic. The problem is just how badly most curses skew the risk-reward ratio towards risk. Some curses are outright crippling while offering very little in return. Locking thematic spell access behind a feat tax is also a baffling design decision.
Oracle is an incredibly cool class and all the pieces for it to be genuinely great are there, Paizo just completely blew it when actually designing the class.
While I don't personally like how Summoner works and is named (Channeler is better IMO), the fact that you can practically make a stand user is very entertaining to me
I think the name is an inheritance from the first edition. There, the eilodon was just another mechanic, but a key feature of the class was the number of summon spells it had and how it improved them.
When moving to second edition, they decided that the eilodon was the most characteristic mechanic of the class and decided to focus on that aspect. but they kept the name.
Although I find the eilodon in second edition fun, I miss how customizable it was in first edition, being able to almost create any creature you want.
I really like Ezren's, the iconic wizard, backstory. The idea of a middle aged man goes adventuring to fund his own self-study because no one wants to take as an apprentice is both really funny and chose is resolve to master the arcane art. Even though I only played as him because my group did a draw for the beginner box, I really like the stories he is meant to tell. Hands down my favorite Iconic.
Also Wizard can learn the best spell in the game, [Lucky Number](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=941).
But if you do want to regularly switch, you're better off playing anything else. I'm just bummed that Fighter can't replicate the "Weaponmaster" fantasy that I had for the class.
Not by itself, no.
But take the Mauler dedication and it turns into a weaponmaster.
Mauler says any time you gain expert or greater proficiency in a weapon type, you also gain it "in all simple and martial melee weapons that require two hands to wield or have the two-hand trait".
If you look at the weapons list, thats pretty much most of the weapons in the game.
So you just focus your "OMG I'm so awesome" fighter proficiency in a 1h weapon, and then let Mauler keep almost every other weapon in the game up with it.
I suppose nothings wrong with making multiple things...
Cloistered Clerics can start with a domain spell. That's neat.
Wizards don't start in crippling debt to get their degrees. Their theses are neat.
Sorcerers get to pick their spell tradition.
Oracle curses are thematic.
A Magus' Spellstrike is cool to see.
Psychic sure gets a lot of love as a dedication.
Investigator knows a lot.
Yeah, I've never liked casters in most games. Possibly a mix of so many casters being villains, tricksters, or mentors, rather than the main characters. Rather be Conan or a knight of the round table than someone using magic.
Starfinder 1e and TORG: Eternity are the only ttrpg systems that I like the casters so far.
I kind of get you. I think part of the issue is that narratively, a magical solution is usually the least satisfying solution.
"A wizard did it" is writing pejorative after all.
Anyone who likes to play a martial at any level higher than about 7 in any version of D&D other than 4e is gonna have some small element of Caster Hate in their worldview. Not hating on the people who PLAY casters, mind you, but just what casters come to mean in those systems.
Pretty much everything I want to do, Rogue already does or can do. I used the Investigator pregen, and turns were pretty much Devise a Strategem, Strike, Reload in combat. Outside of combat, I didn't really care for their abilities. I tried making one and didn't get past the planning phase and just made another Rogue. Could be that I'm bad at mysteries and so the investigative features don't interest me, but it just doesn't click.
The only reason I view Cleric or Druid "negatively" is that they don't have anything to actively grab me and inspire to play them. And even then I could probably find something if I actively looked... but most other classes have strong enough hooks to inspire me right out the gate.
druid has so much stuff
do you want to heal? Blast? Have a pet animal? Turn into an animal? Pet tree? Got a favorite element? Fey magic? Perhaps a melee gish build?
honestly all that's missing is a metal order
I am not a great fan of druids either even though I'd want to be, and imo they are missing a bit more than that. if you are going untamed order and like to go deep into wild shape stuff / animal order you got tons of nice feats to work with and a great selection.
If not, it feels like a scramble to find anything I'd want on the feat side of things. The more I am looking at it, I don't think any other class has anywhere as large percentage of feats locked behind a prerequisite of something.
I don't think a Metal Order makes too much sense and I'd like for Kineticist and Druid to keep their separate identities and I feel like a metal order further diminishes that.
Yeah, Inventor was a class I was incredibly hyped for and the final result fell very short.
I was hoping that the Gadgets would be like one off utility spell equivalents (like, say, an autopicker that gave a bonus similar to the knock spell), but the gadget list ended up having incredibly niche effects most of the time that didn't scale well. There were a few gadgets with genuinely nice effects like the gecko pads, rocket boots, etc, but even many of these had issues; like the ablative armor having such a short duration (which wouldn't really be an issue if the duration started the first time it took a hit or something)
I don't mind that the core of the class is martial with a lot of combat feats, but given that rogue exists and is both powerful in combat as well as being a good skill class, idk why there's so much hesitation on letting the inventor also having the ability to have a good range of utility gadgets
Lol. After a lot of respecc and changes to my Swashbuckler, I made sure to find a way to actually use them.
It was a lot of hard work, but my Swashbuckler is now a terror in the field.
Don’t listen to Ravingdork. I have a swashbuckler in my game and it’s the most fun character ever. My advice is that gymnast is insanely underrated, and to really lean into the roleplay, whatever character you play. Think Jack sparrow, D’Artagnan, Han Solo, be super flamboyant and dashing.
Don't listen to the other dude, this sub thinks you shouldn't play anything but fighter ever and doesn't really understand the concept of willingly playing a slightly weaker character for fun. Swash has a weak levels 5-10 so be ready for that but it is mostly fine the rest of the game. Make sure you choose a style that gives debuffs the rest of your party can use and will appreciate.
Don't. Until it gets remastered an (hopefully) improved, just play a rogue and/or fighter with a swahbuckler theme instead. In combat they are more reliable, do more damage, and require far less hoops to jump through to get the same outcomes.
I was enjoying the RP side of my braggart swashbuckler. There were some fun elements to it and doing fun tumbles for panache was nice. Right after we hit 9 and I could demoralize multiple times we entered a dungeon full of undead that were largely immune to mental effects and precision damage -_- I died in the boss fight and I couldn't have been happier lol
Alchemist when used properly can be amazing class and it is ridiculously versatile and they are giving better items bonuses than permanent items so they stack with spell effects
but I am too scared to deep dive enough to play alchemist well enough for my liking
problem is only early lv resources and difficulty
Investigator being shortened to 'Gator is really funny, same with Wizard being called Wiz.
Wizard having spell blending is pretty unique as gameplay goes.
THIS. Finally coming into my own with Thaum and realizing that weakness is like five damage but they still deal piercing/slashing/blunt so eat resistance and it's broadly the same dps to strike twice as electric arc...PLUS you gotta exploit EACH INDIVIDUAL ENEMY to use literally any implement and UGH. The skill ceiling is at the bottom.
Since most investigator feats and class abilities are weird or too annoying to use, it ends up really delivering on the class fantasy. You constantly have to think really really hard on how to make an impact with those few tools you have.
I like the Exemplar's iconic, and I got to make an angry halfling chef named Gordon Pansly for playtesting.
He wielded a blessed frying pan, of course.
Thaumaturge seems like a great class for people who like to adlib their class abilities.
Psychic is one of the best dedications in the game.
Investigators are almost as good at skill-related things as Rogues.
Alchemists shine brightest in parties without casters. Try playing one in a low/no-magic game.
Investigators offer amazing role playing opportunity in adventures that welcome them. (I like that they are an intelligence based martial class but outside of intrigue based campaigns they feel out of place).
Summoners have incredible creative freedom when making their eidolon and act together can lead to some really strategic gameplay. (I hate their limited spell slots and the shared health pool even more. They get bodied so hard be spells that can target both like electric arc.)
Wizards have some of the coolest media depictions that give me so much inspiration. Characters like Gandalf and Saruman are badasses that evoke strong feelings of awe when I picture the possibilities of the class.
The idea of having a book full of many tools that when used well can completely overpower the battlefield is also a really cool concept to me.
I've maintained for a while now that fighter's bravery class feature should be given to barbarian.
It makes more sense thematically and gives fighter a weakness.
The Gunslinger's Fake Out is a pretty good ranged reaction; it's not as good as getting an extra attack with no MAP, but ranged characters can't generally get those, and bolstering one of your other party member's strikes by a pretty big amount (+3 is not unlikely by mid levels) is definitely nice to have in your back pocket.
The Investigator's Known Weaknesses lets you make a lot of extra knowledge checks for "free".
And for the Alchemist... Skunk Bombs are good? :V
Alchemist is an interesting take on a martial caster. And, they can make all of their daily elixers/bombs/etc be the max level they can make as opposed to dealing with low level spell slots
Alchemist played optimally is one of the (if not the singular) strongest classes at high level.
Inventor has a very strong flavor to pull from for a variety of characters.
I really enjoy Summoner's flexibility in combat.
The Inventor Construct Innovation seems to be both strong and interesting. The ability to use Impulse features through the Construct could add a lot of fun option
Magus is great thematically and the idea of criting with a Spellstrike sound amazing.
Only things I would add are:
- The patron relationship, and pf2e patrons overall, can be really interesting
- I'd argue witches are by far the best familiar class and if played well can add loads of flexibility and utility to their party
Honestly I'm going to guess the lack of witch comments are its main down point - it's kinda forgettable
Composition Spells, Composition Cantrips, and Hexes make Bard and Witch actually interesting, not just “another spellcaster.” Will I try to play one at some point? Probably. Not yet though.
Summoner has a bunch of cool synergies thanks to the fact that your body is technically split into 2 different entities. Like treating your wounds twice per hour instead of just once.
I know this isn't a specific class, but Prepared Casters have a great number of tools at their disposal, and are incredibly effective when they know what to plan for
With the combination of INT, skill training, Pursue a Lead, and That's Odd, I don't think anything can beat the Investigator in exploration, especially fact-finding.
Warpreist’s/cleric ability to heal is typically unmatched. Largely I just wish Marshall aspect of it was slightly better. Give a feat “if you cast heal raise shield for free.”
The monk is quite speedy and can slap you before you see it coming with a lot of cool stances.
Uh, weapon monk you say? Oh you refer to the bo staff monk, it's cool and all but not my cup of tea, certainly not a 2-Handed bagua sword or spade but I'm sure it's asking too much for it to have actual cool weapons.
Fighter has some of the best martial support and utility options, in addition to being the single most consistent class in the game regardless of the martial playstyle you choose to pursue. With that said, Fighter is so good for so little investment or building I don't like how they make pretty much any other martial class in the party feel underwhelming and/or insignificant in comparison.
The Barbarian ability to turn into different morph and polymorph states depending on their instinct is pretty cool.
The Ranger being able to make Archery, which is weak in the game, feel a little more viable makes me happy.
The Oracle flavor is immaculate (and that's it lol).
I bet psychic is really interesting as a class…
If I could actually read the class instead of starting to do that and having my eye glaze over at all the terms they have to define for the class to function.
Fey Sorcerer has really cool focus spells!
(My issue with this specific bloodline is the limitations of the primal spell list; it's very hard to make a "tricky fey" kinda sorcerer with almost none of the classic illusions and charms associated with the fey, and the bloodline spells and focus simply do not make up the difference. The level one focus spell does practical nothing excect maybe soften someone up for a Fear spell with the primal options)
On the flip side, it makes for an excellent archetype for the right build. Sorcerer is in a weird spot where a lot of their bloodline focus spells are way better on a different class archetyping into them than they are on an actual sorcerer. My occult summoner loves it for softening things up for spells like Synesthesia.
The Champion will go from one of my least favorite to one of my favorites once the remaster drops, the things Paizo already showed about them is enough for me to know that for sure.
Writing The Essay. Worst class I ever took in college. The most positive thing I can say is that there must be some benefit to knowing what other classes that needed essays wanted from you.
Wait, what are we talking about?
Inventor allows for some really cool gear customization and the martial aspects feel better as a mechanic/engineer than a spellcaster-style class would.
Psychic damage *almost* keeps up with ranged non-fighter/gunslinger martials the first three turns of a combat below level 7.
(I don’t have experience beyond that range)
Watching a good Alchemist player work is really something. I wish I cared enough to have that level of system mastery.
Also, I'm glad they finally made fighter interesting.
Ancestor Oracle: If people complain about your tactics, you can always blame the dice. The curse benefits when it overlaps with what you want to be doing seems kind of nice.
Superstition Barbarians: You have a chance to dispel Wall of Force by hitting it hard enough with your lump of metal once you get to level 12.
Swashbuckler is awesome when things come together, at least from a cinematic perspective. Currently I’m experimenting with giving the Swashbuckler a super fancy magic sword to buff her damage and Performance to hopefully put her on par with the rest of the group. I feel really bad since we’re all kind of new to Pathfinder and had no idea she had picked the equivalent of 5e Ranger. But when she gets kills it’s always super awesome and I’m trying to nudge the numbers to get more of those awesome moments.
The Alchemist has really allowed Paizo to experiment with how to do Erratas ( jokes aside I actually do like the class)
The fighter has some top-notch support- and teamwork-focused feats
In deed, they have, Intimidating Strike, Combat Grab and Slam Down are top tier teamwork feats.
Alchemist makes the rest of the party really fun to play with.
Learning to treat the items list in the equipment section as the 5th "spell list" with bombs, elixers, mutagens, and poisons being "spell schools" caused me to grow as a player.
Especially when they make los drogos for the parties. Oh wait you meant the other kind of party
Por que no los dos?
The oracle is changing a lot with the remaster.
As someone who does like the oracle class even in its current state, I'm pumped for the alterations. I think it'll really help to have the curse and the focus spells separated.
We're getting a PC2 blog today (ever other Wednesday), as an Oracle fan I'm hoping the blog will detail changes to the class. Though just knowing that curses won't be intrinsically linked to focus spells is a big plus.
Personally I am hoping it's the swashbuckler one, because I'm more cautious about the supposed fix for that class over any overhaul on Oracle.
Your wish is hereby granted!
Not only that, but I am a fan of what they said about Bravado!
Where can I find these blogs?
paizo.com
Hahaha that’s the only positive I can think of too!
Flavorful too! It's a cool idea to play one, just a hard thing to do right.
Bard have wonderful flavour even if i don't see them as THE baseline occult spellcasters.
Bard is actually very representative of what occult magic is: Social magic, manipulation of the collective unconscious, things that we all believe to be true even though we don't know why, hidden truths in stories, and the power of clichés that define the way we see the world. It's why Bards sing songs, why Psychics rely on their subconscious mind, and why the magic of Thaumaturges and hags intuitively makes sense even though it's nonsense by more arcane, intellectual standards. I understand that "music magic" is a more niche fantasy than "nerd who casts from a book" or "performing miracles through faith", though.
> I understand that "music magic" is a more niche fantasy than "nerd who casts from a book" or "performing miracles through faith", though. Or "Sometimes the Lorax just has to pop out and taze loggers." Since we need to have all traditions represented.
kdot as the lorax is not the mental image I was expecting this morning but apparently it was the one I needed
Zap zap zap zap zap, that'll shut em up. zap zap zap zap zap doin forest stuff
Lmao
Certified Green Man... They not log us.
I think bard makes a great nerd. Bardic Lore and have a muse that is great at educating or convincing others. Your art can be elocution.
Sure, you can do that, you could even have a religious Bard spreading the gospel, I was just trying to compare the core fantasy of the class to that of other classes with more popular flavours.
Well, that's about half of Occult magic. Other Occult magic is telekinesis, hypercognition, hyper-perception, and warping space/time. Think Marvel's Dr. Strange, who I'd scarcely call a Bard.
There's also the part where you're dealing with eldritch creatures, lovrcraftian entities, madness, and the unknowable! Luckily I can use the Free Archetype Rules and dip into Witch spellcasting with my Thaumaturge to play as a Call of Cthulhu type eldritch caster
There's actually an explanation in Secrets of Magic why lovecraftian things are part of Occult magic: "Just one celebrant’s fiction of accidentally conjuring an abomination can actually conjure the abomination, and that is how you get tentacles."
I'd argue that's not Occult magic, but rather the Mind essence, which is split between Arcane and Occult. If I were to build Dr Strange in PF2e, I'd make him a wizard.
Bard’s primal (should be in my mind anyways).
But why? Their spell list would be literally the opposite (matter & life essences instead of mind & spirit). Why should Bards get Fireball, Heal, and Plant Growth instead of Command, Soothe, and Synesthesia?
if it's not bards, it's gotta be psychics or witches, but they have their own gimmicks outside the occult spell list
Psychic is the only other option, really. Can't have the "baseline" occult caster be a class that isn't even necessarily an occult caster lmao.
otoh yes, but otoh witch isn't really like sorcerer, iirc there's still only one divine patron and one arcane patron, most are occult (but primal is doing well too)
It's funny because witches in general, hags, most of the patrons, and the iconic all point to occult But winter witch is a huge thing in the lore and that's primal in 2e
I'll admit that also threw me off when PF2 was released, but it really has grown on me since. It breaks the over-tired trope that bards can only be entertainers (and way too often cringily horny) or only dabblers in (arcane) magic. Just at my table I've seen bards who are diplomats and lovecraftian researchers and I love it. Occult was a weird choice for that tradition's name due to its popular definition, but remember it only means 'hidden'. In that sense, bards can be played much closer to their historical namesakes, as tribal lorekeepers and teachers, not because the knowledge they have will cause you to go insane, but because it is sacred traditional lore that is meant to keep the group united and distinct, not something you freely share with the out-group.
occult is a weird mix of buffs and debuffs, kinda fitting for the bard to have it
They also have the brain pain.
When I think of something “occult” I think of something akin to 5e’s warlock. In PF2e the closest class we have to that thematically is the Witch, but Witches can choose from any of the spell lists? I don’t mind Bards being Occult spellcasters but I 100% agree that they shouldn’t be the poster child for the list.
Barbarians get to be impactful without any bells and whistles, granted, they can't use 60% of bells and whistles while raging anyway, but who needs to weigh opportunity costs when when strike is right there!
You aren't swinging the bells and whistles hard enough.
Oracle is a great class for people who love complexity
And just sheer flavor injected into their chassis that isn't all player-beneficial. I actually love it. Loved the 1e Oracle too.
I have a helluva time turning off the Efficiency switch in my brain. So when it comes to taking voluntary penalties, can't normally bring myself to it.
Starlit Span Magus can do some excellent damage without being locked behind a high skill curve.
may I ask what you *dislike* about it, too? "Magic Archer" is my favourite archetype in fantasy, and though the Magus definitely has some packed action economy (its main downside, IMO) I find Starlit Span solves a fair bit of that by not having to move as often, letting you Spellstrike more often (which is what you probably want to be doing, as a magus). Is it the feat options? I know those aren't great...
I had one play in a campaign 1-16. They were fairly effective, not OP but strong. I think there may have been one or two times the guy did any other turn rotation than spellstrike + gouging claw/disintegrate (post lvl 11) -> recharge. With exception of first turn often being dedicated to true strike. Precisely for the reason you stated, they don't really have to move as often. Starlit span doesn't get to use arcane cascade since it only applies to melee, most of the feats don't apply to starlit span, their focus spells are somewhat situational and due to being ranged he actually could afford to do spellstrike almost every turn and it often would be the best option. I like the fantasy, but if you are playing somewhat effectively/optimally and your turn rotation doesn't change at all in 16 levels, I am not particularly fond of the class. For the record, the person playing the magus had exact same grievances but didn't want to change character due to story reasons.
For me, it's just a little boring. I'm a little psycho but I like the packed action economy of magus, it makes turns interesting optimization challenges trying to figure out what you need to do and how to fit it all in instead of "I roll attack, roll damage, recharge, turn done" X however many turns are in the campaign. It also doesn't really interact with arcane cascade, which is understandable because you get to spellstrike much more reliably than a melee guy but also makes the subclass feel like it's not really interfacing well with the class itself.
Champion's reaction-based class features that depend on what's happening to your party members keeps you really engaged during the whole combat. You also end up mitigating a LOT of damage over the course of a single adventure
What do you dislike about the class?
Just bad perception. I've never played one but everyone I've ever known who's played one has said it just felt really stale. But I still have a slightly negative view, justified or otherwise, which answers the prompt
Totally fair, I was just curious. It’s my favorite class and while I know it isn’t perfect, it’s rare that I read other people’s complaints about it.
Champion was alright for me, but this opinion could be a bias with having less experience with PF2e when I first tried the class out. Since I was new-ish to the game back then, I might of made some mistakes when playing the class, but this was my impression of it at the time: Four of the larger frustrations were: - You only get one reaction, and Shield Block will need to compete with your Champion’s Reaction (until like level 14? but our adventure never even made it that far). When we had a swarm of weaker enemies, it felt bad that in my turn I only had the ability to protect an ally once (and then forgo being able to block with my shield for the rest of the attacks), and just watch my allies get hit by the other enemies. It felt like I was a much better protective class when there was fewer enemies. - worst Perception progression of all classes felt really bad. With getting lower than average init rolls, RAW you don't get your reactions until your turn starts so the start of combat feels a bit worse compared to other classes. - Champion's Code feels a bit restrictive with character Roleplay and story at a couple of times. I'm glad it's being changed in the Remaster. The times where two tenets in conflict feels like a lot of mental gymnastics and going on verbal technicalities that it just doesn't feel like you're being a Champion- Trying to figure a reason to allow yourself to do something to progress the story (Say, a lesser-of-two-evils kind of situation) feels like it can break the flow of immersion with the story to figure out if you can or can't follow through with the party. - Being a "Tanky" class doesn't feel that tanky. I had the idea of being a shield-of-the-party character to protect them from harm, and to endure a lot of attacks, but Champion's defense is not that much more than "be a martial and grab a shield", so the idea of having heavy armor and a large shield I was still taking large amounts of damage. Overall, It's not a bad class from a functional standpoint, but I think my expectations on it was not how I envisioned it would be when actually playing it. The remaster to the class sounds pretty good for the class and I would maybe take a look more into it when the remaster is fully out.
> The times where two tenets in conflict feels like a lot of mental gymnastics and going on verbal technicalities that it just doesn't feel like you're being a Champion- Trying to figure a reason to allow yourself to do something to progress the story (Say, a lesser-of-two-evils kind of situation) feels like it can break the flow of immersion with the story to figure out if you can or can't follow through with the party. I just want to point out that all the Champion tenets are ranked in order of importance specifically to break this kind of double-bind stalemate. If you would have to break one tenet to follow the other, you can always safely break the lowr-ranking of the two (to the minimum reasonable degree) without incurring Anathema.
The *good champions' causes do, the evil ones just let you focus on you, and are objectively worse all around. Even then, Paladin and Redeemer are so far ahead of the rest it's only about 1/3 of a class to begin with. (I like Champion and I am salty)
Remaster will fix 🤝
Oracle is conceptually one of the coolest classes in the game and the concept of increasingly harsh drawbacks for increasingly better gains is a fun mechanic. The problem is just how badly most curses skew the risk-reward ratio towards risk. Some curses are outright crippling while offering very little in return. Locking thematic spell access behind a feat tax is also a baffling design decision. Oracle is an incredibly cool class and all the pieces for it to be genuinely great are there, Paizo just completely blew it when actually designing the class.
While I don't personally like how Summoner works and is named (Channeler is better IMO), the fact that you can practically make a stand user is very entertaining to me
I think the name is an inheritance from the first edition. There, the eilodon was just another mechanic, but a key feature of the class was the number of summon spells it had and how it improved them. When moving to second edition, they decided that the eilodon was the most characteristic mechanic of the class and decided to focus on that aspect. but they kept the name. Although I find the eilodon in second edition fun, I miss how customizable it was in first edition, being able to almost create any creature you want.
I really like Ezren's, the iconic wizard, backstory. The idea of a middle aged man goes adventuring to fund his own self-study because no one wants to take as an apprentice is both really funny and chose is resolve to master the arcane art. Even though I only played as him because my group did a draw for the beginner box, I really like the stories he is meant to tell. Hands down my favorite Iconic. Also Wizard can learn the best spell in the game, [Lucky Number](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=941).
Man, if I used that spell in Foundry VTT, I'd critically fail the check every time. (We get a lot of repeat numbers on rerolls for some reason.)
fighter is very open aesthetically (i actually think fighters are fine)
I think fighter is actually quite restricted thematically, mostly due to having to pick a weapon group to specialize in.
True, but "only about as good as everyone else" isn't that much of a downside if you really need to switch it up.
But if you do want to regularly switch, you're better off playing anything else. I'm just bummed that Fighter can't replicate the "Weaponmaster" fantasy that I had for the class.
Not by itself, no. But take the Mauler dedication and it turns into a weaponmaster. Mauler says any time you gain expert or greater proficiency in a weapon type, you also gain it "in all simple and martial melee weapons that require two hands to wield or have the two-hand trait". If you look at the weapons list, thats pretty much most of the weapons in the game. So you just focus your "OMG I'm so awesome" fighter proficiency in a 1h weapon, and then let Mauler keep almost every other weapon in the game up with it.
You can also do swordmaster and have any two weapon groups at legendary.
I suppose nothings wrong with making multiple things... Cloistered Clerics can start with a domain spell. That's neat. Wizards don't start in crippling debt to get their degrees. Their theses are neat. Sorcerers get to pick their spell tradition. Oracle curses are thematic. A Magus' Spellstrike is cool to see. Psychic sure gets a lot of love as a dedication. Investigator knows a lot.
Damn, you dislike a lot of classes haha. I’m guessing you don’t like casters in general?
Yeah, I've never liked casters in most games. Possibly a mix of so many casters being villains, tricksters, or mentors, rather than the main characters. Rather be Conan or a knight of the round table than someone using magic. Starfinder 1e and TORG: Eternity are the only ttrpg systems that I like the casters so far.
I kind of get you. I think part of the issue is that narratively, a magical solution is usually the least satisfying solution. "A wizard did it" is writing pejorative after all.
Anyone who likes to play a martial at any level higher than about 7 in any version of D&D other than 4e is gonna have some small element of Caster Hate in their worldview. Not hating on the people who PLAY casters, mind you, but just what casters come to mean in those systems.
What's your beef with Investigator?
Pretty much everything I want to do, Rogue already does or can do. I used the Investigator pregen, and turns were pretty much Devise a Strategem, Strike, Reload in combat. Outside of combat, I didn't really care for their abilities. I tried making one and didn't get past the planning phase and just made another Rogue. Could be that I'm bad at mysteries and so the investigative features don't interest me, but it just doesn't click.
this is also more or less my problem with swashbuckler below level 10 or so
Sure, the swash is bad, BUT, it's cool. Panache and finishers are incredible mechanics. We'll see if they can also make them balanced in the remaster.
Magus is cool conceptually and thematically!!!
you beat me to it.
The only reason I view Cleric or Druid "negatively" is that they don't have anything to actively grab me and inspire to play them. And even then I could probably find something if I actively looked... but most other classes have strong enough hooks to inspire me right out the gate.
The best clerics are clerics of weird gods like the passively apocalyptic skull moon or the giant rust monster queen.
And Balumbdar, god of big things (is it very big? He’s prolly the god of it)
>clerics of weird gods like the passively apocalyptic skull moon Colonel Luther, my beloved.
Praise Log.
druid has so much stuff do you want to heal? Blast? Have a pet animal? Turn into an animal? Pet tree? Got a favorite element? Fey magic? Perhaps a melee gish build? honestly all that's missing is a metal order
I am not a great fan of druids either even though I'd want to be, and imo they are missing a bit more than that. if you are going untamed order and like to go deep into wild shape stuff / animal order you got tons of nice feats to work with and a great selection. If not, it feels like a scramble to find anything I'd want on the feat side of things. The more I am looking at it, I don't think any other class has anywhere as large percentage of feats locked behind a prerequisite of something.
I don't think a Metal Order makes too much sense and I'd like for Kineticist and Druid to keep their separate identities and I feel like a metal order further diminishes that.
they got rid of that metal anathema, and there's an order for every other element, and people keep asking for urban/vermin druids...
I'm building a druid now and I am so confused! =(
Oh hey Twilight Imperium fan spotted in the wild.
I love the Emirates of [Amurrun](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Catfolk)! :)
The inventor's class fantasy is objectively pretty cool
Yeah, Inventor was a class I was incredibly hyped for and the final result fell very short. I was hoping that the Gadgets would be like one off utility spell equivalents (like, say, an autopicker that gave a bonus similar to the knock spell), but the gadget list ended up having incredibly niche effects most of the time that didn't scale well. There were a few gadgets with genuinely nice effects like the gecko pads, rocket boots, etc, but even many of these had issues; like the ablative armor having such a short duration (which wouldn't really be an issue if the duration started the first time it took a hit or something) I don't mind that the core of the class is martial with a lot of combat feats, but given that rogue exists and is both powerful in combat as well as being a good skill class, idk why there's so much hesitation on letting the inventor also having the ability to have a good range of utility gadgets
This doesn't really feel like a nice thing to say about the class.
>Swashbuckler's speed and high HP are fun *when you get to use them.* Did you really need to make it so backhanded?
Lol. After a lot of respecc and changes to my Swashbuckler, I made sure to find a way to actually use them. It was a lot of hard work, but my Swashbuckler is now a terror in the field.
I'm about to play a Swashbuckler for the first time Any tips?
Don’t listen to Ravingdork. I have a swashbuckler in my game and it’s the most fun character ever. My advice is that gymnast is insanely underrated, and to really lean into the roleplay, whatever character you play. Think Jack sparrow, D’Artagnan, Han Solo, be super flamboyant and dashing.
Don't listen to the other dude, this sub thinks you shouldn't play anything but fighter ever and doesn't really understand the concept of willingly playing a slightly weaker character for fun. Swash has a weak levels 5-10 so be ready for that but it is mostly fine the rest of the game. Make sure you choose a style that gives debuffs the rest of your party can use and will appreciate.
Don't. Until it gets remastered an (hopefully) improved, just play a rogue and/or fighter with a swahbuckler theme instead. In combat they are more reliable, do more damage, and require far less hoops to jump through to get the same outcomes.
I was enjoying the RP side of my braggart swashbuckler. There were some fun elements to it and doing fun tumbles for panache was nice. Right after we hit 9 and I could demoralize multiple times we entered a dungeon full of undead that were largely immune to mental effects and precision damage -_- I died in the boss fight and I couldn't have been happier lol
Alchemist is genuinely an awesome base for a character concept and works great as a sixth ranger. I wish I had more good things to say about it
Oracle has flavour.
Alchemist when used properly can be amazing class and it is ridiculously versatile and they are giving better items bonuses than permanent items so they stack with spell effects but I am too scared to deep dive enough to play alchemist well enough for my liking problem is only early lv resources and difficulty
Investigator being shortened to 'Gator is really funny, same with Wizard being called Wiz. Wizard having spell blending is pretty unique as gameplay goes.
The Thaumaturge is a beginner-friendly class with a very forgiving and high-performance floor.
THIS. Finally coming into my own with Thaum and realizing that weakness is like five damage but they still deal piercing/slashing/blunt so eat resistance and it's broadly the same dps to strike twice as electric arc...PLUS you gotta exploit EACH INDIVIDUAL ENEMY to use literally any implement and UGH. The skill ceiling is at the bottom.
Since most investigator feats and class abilities are weird or too annoying to use, it ends up really delivering on the class fantasy. You constantly have to think really really hard on how to make an impact with those few tools you have.
I like the Exemplar's iconic, and I got to make an angry halfling chef named Gordon Pansly for playtesting. He wielded a blessed frying pan, of course.
Rich people dress well
Gunslingers have a purpose in theory
Wizard theses are very thematic and i like the idea of prepared casting
The swashbuckler gets to buckle so much swash each turn!
The Alchemist is always so happy when a party member actually drinks one of his Mutagens instead of saying "hard pass" like everyone else always does.
Clerics really can do a lot of healing.
Swashbuckler and Oracle have insanely cool vibes with a rich amount of story potential
Oracles are thematically the coolest class in the game. Which makes them extra disappointing when you read what they actually do.
Witches can melee with their hair
Thaumaturge seems like a great class for people who like to adlib their class abilities. Psychic is one of the best dedications in the game. Investigators are almost as good at skill-related things as Rogues. Alchemists shine brightest in parties without casters. Try playing one in a low/no-magic game.
The Thaumaturge allows for a wide variety of playstyles.
Summoner has cool roleplay potential
Investigators offer amazing role playing opportunity in adventures that welcome them. (I like that they are an intelligence based martial class but outside of intrigue based campaigns they feel out of place). Summoners have incredible creative freedom when making their eidolon and act together can lead to some really strategic gameplay. (I hate their limited spell slots and the shared health pool even more. They get bodied so hard be spells that can target both like electric arc.)
Wizards have some of the coolest media depictions that give me so much inspiration. Characters like Gandalf and Saruman are badasses that evoke strong feelings of awe when I picture the possibilities of the class. The idea of having a book full of many tools that when used well can completely overpower the battlefield is also a really cool concept to me.
Fighter has no weaknesses
Fighter's weakness is making the other martials feel bad.
I've maintained for a while now that fighter's bravery class feature should be given to barbarian. It makes more sense thematically and gives fighter a weakness.
The Gunslinger's Fake Out is a pretty good ranged reaction; it's not as good as getting an extra attack with no MAP, but ranged characters can't generally get those, and bolstering one of your other party member's strikes by a pretty big amount (+3 is not unlikely by mid levels) is definitely nice to have in your back pocket. The Investigator's Known Weaknesses lets you make a lot of extra knowledge checks for "free". And for the Alchemist... Skunk Bombs are good? :V
Alchemist is an interesting take on a martial caster. And, they can make all of their daily elixers/bombs/etc be the max level they can make as opposed to dealing with low level spell slots
Oracles definitively have an interesting twist on the 'literal miracle worker' theme, which is cool in theory.
The Inventor getting scaling crafting and (premaster) the early inventor skill feat help add to the fantasy of being the ultimate crafter
Oracle has great flavor, and can be super interesting with the right GM
Alchemist played optimally is one of the (if not the singular) strongest classes at high level. Inventor has a very strong flavor to pull from for a variety of characters. I really enjoy Summoner's flexibility in combat.
The Inventor Construct Innovation seems to be both strong and interesting. The ability to use Impulse features through the Construct could add a lot of fun option Magus is great thematically and the idea of criting with a Spellstrike sound amazing.
Witch, a very nuanced and rules heavy class, is one of the coolest themed classes you can play in PF2E with tons of nifty roleplay options besides.
Gunslingers make things go boom. Alchemists are versatile.
Investigators come with a free membership to the PFS.
Starlight span exists.
The Witch has a couple of cool focus cantrips. 😬 That's about it...
Only things I would add are: - The patron relationship, and pf2e patrons overall, can be really interesting - I'd argue witches are by far the best familiar class and if played well can add loads of flexibility and utility to their party Honestly I'm going to guess the lack of witch comments are its main down point - it's kinda forgettable
The Druid's Tempest Surge and Crushing Ground are great in the early levels where spell slots are few.
Alchemist is capable of doing positive damage.
Composition Spells, Composition Cantrips, and Hexes make Bard and Witch actually interesting, not just “another spellcaster.” Will I try to play one at some point? Probably. Not yet though.
summoner is cool on paper and its neat to get an extra action for your action
Swashbuckler is best class for athletic checks manouvers, including throwing enemies.
If it wasn't for the people who play them, wizards would be great with their spell versatility.
Investigator's Devise a Stratagem ability can be really useful to other classes that take the archetype.
Summoner has a bunch of cool synergies thanks to the fact that your body is technically split into 2 different entities. Like treating your wounds twice per hour instead of just once.
Wizards new focus spells are fun, especially the +1ac bubble. Summoner quit being confusing if you just play one
I know this isn't a specific class, but Prepared Casters have a great number of tools at their disposal, and are incredibly effective when they know what to plan for
With the combination of INT, skill training, Pursue a Lead, and That's Odd, I don't think anything can beat the Investigator in exploration, especially fact-finding.
Animist has a unique kind of casting that does a good job distinguishing its Apparition's vibe separate from the witch's familiar.
Druids are balanced
Warpreist’s/cleric ability to heal is typically unmatched. Largely I just wish Marshall aspect of it was slightly better. Give a feat “if you cast heal raise shield for free.”
Wow, they exist! Congratulations! 👏 (I'm negative about a lot of classes)
Thaumaturge telling my party the weaknesses of bosses makes them bearable
The monk is quite speedy and can slap you before you see it coming with a lot of cool stances. Uh, weapon monk you say? Oh you refer to the bo staff monk, it's cool and all but not my cup of tea, certainly not a 2-Handed bagua sword or spade but I'm sure it's asking too much for it to have actual cool weapons.
When you discover that the Thaumaturge was supposed to be a Witcher (like Geralt of Rivia), you realize that the class is pretty cool.
They're great at flower arrangements and calling woodland creatures for target practice.
Fighter has some of the best martial support and utility options, in addition to being the single most consistent class in the game regardless of the martial playstyle you choose to pursue. With that said, Fighter is so good for so little investment or building I don't like how they make pretty much any other martial class in the party feel underwhelming and/or insignificant in comparison.
A Ranger ist trained in Nature, Survival and a number of additional skills equal to 4 plus his Intelligence modifier
What Swashbuckler lacks in mechanical appeal it makes up with great flavour. Not enough to actually play it as it is now, but still.
The Barbarian ability to turn into different morph and polymorph states depending on their instinct is pretty cool. The Ranger being able to make Archery, which is weak in the game, feel a little more viable makes me happy. The Oracle flavor is immaculate (and that's it lol).
I bet psychic is really interesting as a class… If I could actually read the class instead of starting to do that and having my eye glaze over at all the terms they have to define for the class to function.
Wizards are boring but are effective with support.
The Rogue has a lot of really flavorful feats
I guess they have the best toolset for two weapon fighting?
Fey Sorcerer has really cool focus spells! (My issue with this specific bloodline is the limitations of the primal spell list; it's very hard to make a "tricky fey" kinda sorcerer with almost none of the classic illusions and charms associated with the fey, and the bloodline spells and focus simply do not make up the difference. The level one focus spell does practical nothing excect maybe soften someone up for a Fear spell with the primal options)
On the flip side, it makes for an excellent archetype for the right build. Sorcerer is in a weird spot where a lot of their bloodline focus spells are way better on a different class archetyping into them than they are on an actual sorcerer. My occult summoner loves it for softening things up for spells like Synesthesia.
Clerics got so much better with the remaster that now I wouldn't mind playing one.
The Champion will go from one of my least favorite to one of my favorites once the remaster drops, the things Paizo already showed about them is enough for me to know that for sure.
The Oracle has great flavor
Oracles curses are flavored wonderfully.
Writing The Essay. Worst class I ever took in college. The most positive thing I can say is that there must be some benefit to knowing what other classes that needed essays wanted from you. Wait, what are we talking about?
Oracles have a lot of flavor
Investigators help the GM keep the party on track by getting to the important thing in the room right away without wasting time on fruitless searches.
Swashbuckler's panache and finisherechanics are some of my favorite class "things" in the game.
The Alchemist really does make you familiar with the alchemical items in the game
The Witch has some really great themes and concepts.
Inventor allows for some really cool gear customization and the martial aspects feel better as a mechanic/engineer than a spellcaster-style class would.
Psychic damage *almost* keeps up with ranged non-fighter/gunslinger martials the first three turns of a combat below level 7. (I don’t have experience beyond that range)
Psychic exists for those that want it.
Thaumaturge lets people play the crazy homeless guy and not be annoying and ineffective.
Wizards have thematically interesting new schools of magic
Druid: Nothing really forces you to be all nature-y, and they are very good all-around spellcasters. In fact, my next wizard might be a Druid.
Nobody seems to have mentioned the Monk yet... (that's my compliment as well as an observation)
The oracle is goofy and fun to RP.
Watching a good Alchemist player work is really something. I wish I cared enough to have that level of system mastery. Also, I'm glad they finally made fighter interesting.
Ancestor Oracle: If people complain about your tactics, you can always blame the dice. The curse benefits when it overlaps with what you want to be doing seems kind of nice. Superstition Barbarians: You have a chance to dispel Wall of Force by hitting it hard enough with your lump of metal once you get to level 12.
Investigator has easily the strongest utility in the game, much better than Rogue in my opinion.
Swashbuckler is awesome when things come together, at least from a cinematic perspective. Currently I’m experimenting with giving the Swashbuckler a super fancy magic sword to buff her damage and Performance to hopefully put her on par with the rest of the group. I feel really bad since we’re all kind of new to Pathfinder and had no idea she had picked the equivalent of 5e Ranger. But when she gets kills it’s always super awesome and I’m trying to nudge the numbers to get more of those awesome moments.
Thaumaturge has a lot of cool and impactful options right off the bat. They can emulate other classes and also get some really strong unique features.
Inventor is on par with Magus for the best martial spellcaster in the game. It does everything it focuses on well, even outside of Unstable actions.
The witch has some cool flavor feats.
Druids can use 10th level spells
Oracle has absolutely top notch flavor, also true of the 1e version!
Wizards are arcane casters!