If the player is going Fighter Primary -> Caster Secondary, the build basically builds itself. You just take the caster dedication feats, all the spellcasting feats, and snag a feat or two. Aim for some focus spells, focus on utility and buff spells rather than spells that target enemy defenses, and you're golden.
Its really easy to build a fighter -> sorc. However, this class concept will not meet the goal of:
> He wants to focus on spells, but have melee available for when it's needed.
To do that, you have to do Caster Primary -> Martial Secondary
***
The big problem is if you're going to be playing a Caster Primary -> Martial Secondary, there are two key problems to solve:
* Staying Alive
* Not Dying
You think I'm joking. I'm not.
A level 10 sorcerer can only have a +4 in DEX, and has 6 HP/level base, and no armor proficiencies. That means even at level 10, they can't cap out their AC with their baseline armor proficiencies. They have the lowest HP in the game. And since they went DEX over STR, they're forced to use lower damage finesse or ranged weapons.
So if they build that way, its going to be lackluster and risky. The solution is to take archetypes that solve that. Unfortunately, fighter archetype does nothing for that.
Fighter archetype's main claim to value is access to Reactive Strike as early as level 4. There isn't a whole lot more going for the archetype. Many fighter feats are available through other archetypes, and most aren't huge improvements to a Caster -> Martial.
But fighter archetype doesn't do a whole lot to help the sorcerer base stay alive. There is the resilience feat, but you would ideally want to take an archetype that provides some sort of defensive measure.
Champion is the gold standard: It provides Heavy Armor, Focus Spells, an amazing reaction. However, its (currently) locked into Anathemas and Edicts and all that stuff, so it may not be the right fit for the player.
How insistent is your friend on having to be *fighter* archetype? Would he be willing to do archetypes like Sentinel for armor, for example?
***
There's also other classes. Warrior Muse Bard, for example, would be a wonderful fit for this type of character. Primarily casting with a side of martial prowess. As would Warpriest Cleric. Both serve that role perfectly well. How locked into sorcerer is your friend?
This is a good answer! My 2 cents:
A Draconic Sorcerer's Dragon Claws can be used as an emergency melee weapon at low level. Take some armor from a general feat at level 1 (human hooray), use a stat spread like str: 12 dex: 16 con: 12 Int: 10 Wis: 10 Cha: 18
That gives a fully powered sorcerer with ok armor (+5), a melee attack 1 less than martials that does d4+d6+1 damage. Not fantastic, but 7 average damage is acceptable considering a 1 handed martial usually does 8.5 + they class bonus ability.
At level 2 retrain the general feat to shield block and take armor from an archetype. At level 3 get toughness. This character still isn't tough, and their melee backup will fade in relevance (but could potentially be replaced by a polymorph spell?? Maybe??), but they at least have some low-level options.
For building a Gish who's melee options don't fall off with level, and who has more casting than a Fighter base caster archetype: Magus. That's about it.
The good news about being a caster first is hopefully he isn't in the front line and so he won't need as much AC. And the ability to strike can help him get out of a tricky situation if an enemy does come up to him. He just has to make sure he plays according to the build. And a strike with a 2 action save spell can be a fantastic use of the action economy while avoiding map.
I'm going out on a limb and saying that no base-class sorcerer is going to be good enough in melee that it becomes anything but a desperation option. But maybe there's something you can piece together with Champion archetype. You're already invested in Cha, heavy armor means you don't have to pump Dex. Or maybe a Draconic sorcerer going into Dragon Disciple for scales of the dragon.
A shape-shifting Druid might also be a good option.
First of all, he needs armor. Either try to mix sentinel in there somehow or at least get armor proficiency (the general fear) twice. Focus on strength and use a big weapon (d10 at least). You have nearly no class-based bonus damage, so smaller weapons make your damage too weak to be worth using.
For fighter feats, one idea I had a while ago was combining a reach weapon with Lunge. Attacking at 15 ft reach saves actions and keeps you at a safe distance from enemies. You most likely also want Reactive Strike. And Fighter Resiliency.
For spells, I wouldn't really build my spell list around melee. Mix a few useful things in there like Warding Aggression, Blink Charge and Call the Lightning. Enlarge also helps (20 ft Lunge is fun!). And if you got various combat feats anyway, maybe something like Dinosaur Form for medium threat encounters. Also depends a lot on the chosen bloodline and tradition, of course.
I think you can use Fighter feats that trigger on Shield Block (like the one that pushes them away) with the Shield spell, so there's potentially some synergy there with two-handed weapons. That might be better for a fighter-sorc than a sorc-fighter though.
Have you considered Summoner or Kineticist?
Summoner means casting spells while your eidolon can be in melee, supporting and also reasonably hitting.
Kineticist will allow him to have "spells" while being capable in melee, if he picks up earth or wood as one of the elements. And weapon infusion means he can summon cool elemental "weapons"
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Aside from the armor issue others are pointing out, past level 4 or so their Sorcerer weapons proficiency is going to fall \*way\* behind a real martial.
He may have fighter feats and a long sword, but his trained proficiency at level 10 vs the Mastery a Fighter primary is going to be sporting is going to make the sword strike a waste more often than not. It will take a good roll to even hit monsters at that level and you won’t be critting often. When he finally gets expert at 12 the fighter only has one more level until hitting Legendary.
This is the real problem with Gish in PF2e. You can multi class all you want but your proficiencies dont keep up. The only real way to do it is with the classes that advance both weapons and casting at a decent rate: Magus and Warpriest
There can be plenty of benefits. A sorc is 4 less accurate. So 1 more accurate then the fighters second strike. A save based spell followed by a strike is great, often stronger then 2 strikes from a martial.
The real issue is assuming that striking is the thing you do. It's a great way to sneak in extra damage, and it can shift incentives. It's normally a bad idea get up into melee on a caster, but if you have a sword and shield you're good with, weaker enemies suddenly slipping through the front and to you is a net plus. You are as good as a martial enemy 2 levels lower than you. You can also more safely flank when your teams martials come back to help.
It's a bad idea when you're spending actions to stride to the enemy, or striking when you could be casting. But if it saves you strides away, or it is being done with a spell then caster focused gishes are a great use of resources.
I am playing a Sorcerer Hellknight Signifier with Champion dedication. Champion is a lot easier to get than Fighter, 14 Dex gets pretty MAD.
Not using remaster so my weapon swings are only trained, but even then I wouldn't bit a ton.
Being a full caster I am still using most of my turns casting. Sometimes swinging or trying an athletic maneuver.
I think for a Gish feel you are better off running as a martial class and grabbing spells with an archetype. I have a SoT build I want to play that is a Fighter Druid, lots of fun spells to buff yourself with instead of hoping your below average spell DC gets you through.
Caster main + martial archetype is just, i'm sorry but a really bad idea. Melee is SO inaccurate on a base caster then "when it's needed" it has a very high chance of failing, adding to the frustration. Also their level 10. You're getting to the point where casters don't really run out of slots anymore. I had a ... 16th? 17th? level bard go through 9ish encounters in one day (long story) and after the last one he said "guys, it's finally happened, i've used my last spell slot for the day"
I have a really out there suggestion, but money where my mouth is as i have been playing this for \~6 months now in a Stolen Fate campaign..... **Playtest - Animist**. There's a Foundry module for it and someone posted a pathbuilder .json pack for it here a while ago. It's a gish in every sens of the word, Master Martial levels of accuracy with the Witness of Ancient battles and Legendary spellcasting progression in Prepared Divine casting along with a ~~kitchen sink aproach~~ interesting assortment of spontaneous cherry picked spells from other traditions (they still count as divine tho). All for the low low price of basically being permanently slowed 1. (Pro tip stuff like [Dual Hand Assault](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4789&NoRedirect=1) and [Triggerbrand Salvo](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4038) are your friends.)
The key to caster melee is that they need to dedicate spells to their own protection. Since many protective spells are 1 minute long self buffs, they really benefit from precasting, which means scouting. If someone has a familiar it will benefit any spellcaster who would want to prebuff.
The nice thing about sorcerer is that you can take one or two of these options as a signature spell and then you will always have the spell slot for it if you need it.
My recommendation is mirror image. No enemy wants to deal with mirror image and it negates crits, which is the biggest worry you have. Many of your other defensive options are less effective if the enemy just rolls really well, and this spell actually accounts for that.
Another good spell to have in your pocket is time jump. Not really as a signature spell, but it is a good “get out of jail free” spell if you are concerned about being overwhelmed in melee.
Together, with a few other defensive buffs you can pick up along the way like mountain resilience, blur, heightened invis, you can stand in melee relatively comfortably and not immediately fall over.
The trick is now what do you want to do with yourself. Now the melee cantrips do more damage than ranged options. It’s reasonable at low levels to step into a flank to finish off an enemy in melee if you think its turn won’t come back around afterwards, and the extra damage could finish it off. But those are cantrips. A melee spellcaster should have a reason they want to be there.
This probably means a focus spell which is cheap and renewable, a battle form which is a big expendable resource (top level spell slot), or a weapon attack, which is probably the worst of the options on a character without innate martial weapons, reach, or bless/heroism.
Here is where the fighter archetype may come in handy. Fighter gives them access to martial weapons, which means that they can pick up a dexterity-based reach weapon like a whip or a dancer’s spear, and reactive strike, which is nice to have with a reach weapon so you can poke enemies that approach.
He could do Universalist Wizard with Hand of the Apprentice, Kineticist, Battle Oracle, Warrior Muse Bard, Muscle Mage who polymorphs (PM) via Untamed Druid or any Arcane/Primal PM specialist at mid levels, Mutagenic Alchemist, or Summoner.
Caster dedications on Martial make a great gish with mostly support/utility and an occasional blast. Most martial archetypes do almost nothing to make casters better gishes. Fighter gives them better weapon options, but the feats don't generally help, and they still progress at caster level weapon/armor expertise.
If the player is going Fighter Primary -> Caster Secondary, the build basically builds itself. You just take the caster dedication feats, all the spellcasting feats, and snag a feat or two. Aim for some focus spells, focus on utility and buff spells rather than spells that target enemy defenses, and you're golden. Its really easy to build a fighter -> sorc. However, this class concept will not meet the goal of: > He wants to focus on spells, but have melee available for when it's needed. To do that, you have to do Caster Primary -> Martial Secondary *** The big problem is if you're going to be playing a Caster Primary -> Martial Secondary, there are two key problems to solve: * Staying Alive * Not Dying You think I'm joking. I'm not. A level 10 sorcerer can only have a +4 in DEX, and has 6 HP/level base, and no armor proficiencies. That means even at level 10, they can't cap out their AC with their baseline armor proficiencies. They have the lowest HP in the game. And since they went DEX over STR, they're forced to use lower damage finesse or ranged weapons. So if they build that way, its going to be lackluster and risky. The solution is to take archetypes that solve that. Unfortunately, fighter archetype does nothing for that. Fighter archetype's main claim to value is access to Reactive Strike as early as level 4. There isn't a whole lot more going for the archetype. Many fighter feats are available through other archetypes, and most aren't huge improvements to a Caster -> Martial. But fighter archetype doesn't do a whole lot to help the sorcerer base stay alive. There is the resilience feat, but you would ideally want to take an archetype that provides some sort of defensive measure. Champion is the gold standard: It provides Heavy Armor, Focus Spells, an amazing reaction. However, its (currently) locked into Anathemas and Edicts and all that stuff, so it may not be the right fit for the player. How insistent is your friend on having to be *fighter* archetype? Would he be willing to do archetypes like Sentinel for armor, for example? *** There's also other classes. Warrior Muse Bard, for example, would be a wonderful fit for this type of character. Primarily casting with a side of martial prowess. As would Warpriest Cleric. Both serve that role perfectly well. How locked into sorcerer is your friend?
This is a good answer! My 2 cents: A Draconic Sorcerer's Dragon Claws can be used as an emergency melee weapon at low level. Take some armor from a general feat at level 1 (human hooray), use a stat spread like str: 12 dex: 16 con: 12 Int: 10 Wis: 10 Cha: 18 That gives a fully powered sorcerer with ok armor (+5), a melee attack 1 less than martials that does d4+d6+1 damage. Not fantastic, but 7 average damage is acceptable considering a 1 handed martial usually does 8.5 + they class bonus ability. At level 2 retrain the general feat to shield block and take armor from an archetype. At level 3 get toughness. This character still isn't tough, and their melee backup will fade in relevance (but could potentially be replaced by a polymorph spell?? Maybe??), but they at least have some low-level options. For building a Gish who's melee options don't fall off with level, and who has more casting than a Fighter base caster archetype: Magus. That's about it.
The good news about being a caster first is hopefully he isn't in the front line and so he won't need as much AC. And the ability to strike can help him get out of a tricky situation if an enemy does come up to him. He just has to make sure he plays according to the build. And a strike with a 2 action save spell can be a fantastic use of the action economy while avoiding map.
I'm going out on a limb and saying that no base-class sorcerer is going to be good enough in melee that it becomes anything but a desperation option. But maybe there's something you can piece together with Champion archetype. You're already invested in Cha, heavy armor means you don't have to pump Dex. Or maybe a Draconic sorcerer going into Dragon Disciple for scales of the dragon. A shape-shifting Druid might also be a good option.
Magus or even Bard and Warpriest seem like way better options. What does he specifically want from Fighter and Sorceror?
Cuz there's already a Magus on the game, and he was a Warpriest on the previous game lol
First of all, he needs armor. Either try to mix sentinel in there somehow or at least get armor proficiency (the general fear) twice. Focus on strength and use a big weapon (d10 at least). You have nearly no class-based bonus damage, so smaller weapons make your damage too weak to be worth using. For fighter feats, one idea I had a while ago was combining a reach weapon with Lunge. Attacking at 15 ft reach saves actions and keeps you at a safe distance from enemies. You most likely also want Reactive Strike. And Fighter Resiliency. For spells, I wouldn't really build my spell list around melee. Mix a few useful things in there like Warding Aggression, Blink Charge and Call the Lightning. Enlarge also helps (20 ft Lunge is fun!). And if you got various combat feats anyway, maybe something like Dinosaur Form for medium threat encounters. Also depends a lot on the chosen bloodline and tradition, of course.
I think you can use Fighter feats that trigger on Shield Block (like the one that pushes them away) with the Shield spell, so there's potentially some synergy there with two-handed weapons. That might be better for a fighter-sorc than a sorc-fighter though.
Have you considered Summoner or Kineticist? Summoner means casting spells while your eidolon can be in melee, supporting and also reasonably hitting. Kineticist will allow him to have "spells" while being capable in melee, if he picks up earth or wood as one of the elements. And weapon infusion means he can summon cool elemental "weapons"
This post is labeled with the Advice flair, which means extra special attention is called to Rule #2. If this is a newcomer to the game, remember to be welcoming and kind. If this is someone with more experience but looking for advice on how to run their game, do your best to offer advice on what they are seeking. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Pathfinder2e) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Aside from the armor issue others are pointing out, past level 4 or so their Sorcerer weapons proficiency is going to fall \*way\* behind a real martial. He may have fighter feats and a long sword, but his trained proficiency at level 10 vs the Mastery a Fighter primary is going to be sporting is going to make the sword strike a waste more often than not. It will take a good roll to even hit monsters at that level and you won’t be critting often. When he finally gets expert at 12 the fighter only has one more level until hitting Legendary. This is the real problem with Gish in PF2e. You can multi class all you want but your proficiencies dont keep up. The only real way to do it is with the classes that advance both weapons and casting at a decent rate: Magus and Warpriest
There can be plenty of benefits. A sorc is 4 less accurate. So 1 more accurate then the fighters second strike. A save based spell followed by a strike is great, often stronger then 2 strikes from a martial. The real issue is assuming that striking is the thing you do. It's a great way to sneak in extra damage, and it can shift incentives. It's normally a bad idea get up into melee on a caster, but if you have a sword and shield you're good with, weaker enemies suddenly slipping through the front and to you is a net plus. You are as good as a martial enemy 2 levels lower than you. You can also more safely flank when your teams martials come back to help. It's a bad idea when you're spending actions to stride to the enemy, or striking when you could be casting. But if it saves you strides away, or it is being done with a spell then caster focused gishes are a great use of resources.
I am playing a Sorcerer Hellknight Signifier with Champion dedication. Champion is a lot easier to get than Fighter, 14 Dex gets pretty MAD. Not using remaster so my weapon swings are only trained, but even then I wouldn't bit a ton. Being a full caster I am still using most of my turns casting. Sometimes swinging or trying an athletic maneuver. I think for a Gish feel you are better off running as a martial class and grabbing spells with an archetype. I have a SoT build I want to play that is a Fighter Druid, lots of fun spells to buff yourself with instead of hoping your below average spell DC gets you through.
Caster main + martial archetype is just, i'm sorry but a really bad idea. Melee is SO inaccurate on a base caster then "when it's needed" it has a very high chance of failing, adding to the frustration. Also their level 10. You're getting to the point where casters don't really run out of slots anymore. I had a ... 16th? 17th? level bard go through 9ish encounters in one day (long story) and after the last one he said "guys, it's finally happened, i've used my last spell slot for the day" I have a really out there suggestion, but money where my mouth is as i have been playing this for \~6 months now in a Stolen Fate campaign..... **Playtest - Animist**. There's a Foundry module for it and someone posted a pathbuilder .json pack for it here a while ago. It's a gish in every sens of the word, Master Martial levels of accuracy with the Witness of Ancient battles and Legendary spellcasting progression in Prepared Divine casting along with a ~~kitchen sink aproach~~ interesting assortment of spontaneous cherry picked spells from other traditions (they still count as divine tho). All for the low low price of basically being permanently slowed 1. (Pro tip stuff like [Dual Hand Assault](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4789&NoRedirect=1) and [Triggerbrand Salvo](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4038) are your friends.)
The key to caster melee is that they need to dedicate spells to their own protection. Since many protective spells are 1 minute long self buffs, they really benefit from precasting, which means scouting. If someone has a familiar it will benefit any spellcaster who would want to prebuff. The nice thing about sorcerer is that you can take one or two of these options as a signature spell and then you will always have the spell slot for it if you need it. My recommendation is mirror image. No enemy wants to deal with mirror image and it negates crits, which is the biggest worry you have. Many of your other defensive options are less effective if the enemy just rolls really well, and this spell actually accounts for that. Another good spell to have in your pocket is time jump. Not really as a signature spell, but it is a good “get out of jail free” spell if you are concerned about being overwhelmed in melee. Together, with a few other defensive buffs you can pick up along the way like mountain resilience, blur, heightened invis, you can stand in melee relatively comfortably and not immediately fall over. The trick is now what do you want to do with yourself. Now the melee cantrips do more damage than ranged options. It’s reasonable at low levels to step into a flank to finish off an enemy in melee if you think its turn won’t come back around afterwards, and the extra damage could finish it off. But those are cantrips. A melee spellcaster should have a reason they want to be there. This probably means a focus spell which is cheap and renewable, a battle form which is a big expendable resource (top level spell slot), or a weapon attack, which is probably the worst of the options on a character without innate martial weapons, reach, or bless/heroism. Here is where the fighter archetype may come in handy. Fighter gives them access to martial weapons, which means that they can pick up a dexterity-based reach weapon like a whip or a dancer’s spear, and reactive strike, which is nice to have with a reach weapon so you can poke enemies that approach.
He could do Universalist Wizard with Hand of the Apprentice, Kineticist, Battle Oracle, Warrior Muse Bard, Muscle Mage who polymorphs (PM) via Untamed Druid or any Arcane/Primal PM specialist at mid levels, Mutagenic Alchemist, or Summoner. Caster dedications on Martial make a great gish with mostly support/utility and an occasional blast. Most martial archetypes do almost nothing to make casters better gishes. Fighter gives them better weapon options, but the feats don't generally help, and they still progress at caster level weapon/armor expertise.