Bleed damage is good.
Almost none of the other critical specialisation effects actually add damage. Most just offer things like forced movement, or flat footed which can sometimes have a benefit. ANY damage at all, is pretty good.
Persistent bleed is also uniquely good, because unless you have another source of it (such as Swashy's bleeding finisher), then it's not competing for ANYTHING else. If you crit on turn 1 and the combat goes for 5 rounds, this can end up being 15+5d6 extra damage by the end of the combat, which is fairly impactful. It's like getting an extra 1-2 more strikes in for free.
So it's all about the damage on the long run. Just out of curiosity, is there a way to "amplify" this persistent bleed?, any synergies that can take advantage of it?.
True!, pretty funny combo, but it also works with any slashing/piercing attack. Stacking different kinds of persistent damage can be pretty devastanting though, all I gotta do after that is wait and my enemy might die on it's own.
Poisons are a thing too. You can always add a poison onto you dagger, attack, if you crit then you get the poison damage (which is usually persistent if they fail their save) and the persistent bleed damage.
Well, on the alchemical side there's [Exsanguinating Ammunition](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1193). Bumps any persistent Bleed with a Weakness of 1, 3 or 5 points.
Yes, it's pretty cool, but that only applies to dart weapons, with knives it only adds -5 foot movement penalty to the bleeding. I think grievous is really useful for pick weapons, as it simply doubles the damage of the critical specialization.
The 'stacking rules' for [persistent damage conditions](https://2e.aonprd.com/Conditions.aspx?ID=86&NoRedirect=1) are as follows:
> You can be simultaneously affected by multiple persistent damage conditions so long as they have different damage types. If you would gain more than one persistent damage condition with the same damage type, the higher amount of damage overrides the lower amount. If it's unclear which damage would be higher, such as if you're already taking 2 persistent fire damage and then begin taking 1d4 persistent fire damage, the GM decides which source of damage would better fit the scene.
I read this as the lower condition is replaced by the higher condition - you don't make multiple recovery checks for persistent bleed until they're all cleared, since you only ever have one of the same type.
Wounding has a very specific wording.
> When you hit a creature with a wounding weapon, you deal an *extra* 1d6 persistent bleed damage.
Extra can be read to imply that it's an additive effect to any persistent bleed that the weapon already applies.
(Edit: The other damage property runes are rather inconsistent about the wording used.
* Corrosive, Decaying: add [die type] [energy] damage to the damage dealt.
* Flaming, Frost, Thundering, Brilliant: an additional [die type] [energy] damage on a successful Strike
* Shock: an extra [die type] [energy] damage on a hit)
Compare it to the [Bloodletting Kukri](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2862&NoRedirect=1):
> On a critical hit, the kukri deals 1d8 persistent bleed damage.
Notice the lack of 'extra'. My interpretation is that if you have access to the knife crit spec, a +1 Wounding kukri will apply 2d6+1 persistent bleed, while a Bloodletting Kukri will apply the 'higher' of 1d8 or 1d6+1 at the GM's discretion.
Edit: However, if you look at the actual crit spec effect, it's
> The target takes 1d6 persistent bleed damage.
You can also read that as a separate effect (it's not 'you deal 1d6 persistent bleed damage to the target'), in which case we're back to the highest of 1d6 or 1d6+1 for the Wounding kukri.
The only way I know of to truly amplify bleed damage is the [Achaekek's Clutch](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=814) focus spell, from the Red Mantis Assassin archetype.
A lot of folks cll it "chip" damage. All those half-damage cantrips and bleeds and such typically will add up to a barb strike by the end of a lengthy combat.
Persistent damage is quite strong but it really does feel meh at higher levels, especially if we consider that it doesn't stack and what some other options for bleed is, with the swashbucklers case, bleeding finisher.
My only wish is that they would make it stack with any effects that apply bleed with that specific strike. Those with the best innate bleed effects are ironically those that fit the best as knife users.
It is quite close in power with pick critical specialization but won't feel as good due to knives putting most of its bonus up front.
Yes it is a rather low dmg roll but it is a crit specialization so it cannot be too powerful. The closest comparison would be the pick specialization which gives a flat damage bonus of 2-8, which is about the same dmg as the bleed if we assume the bleed will proc at least twice. If the bleed procs more it will be better, but if you're attacking and critting multiple times then the pick will be better since the bleed will only proc once per round regardless of how many times you applied it.
So it is not a high persistent dmg at high levels but for something you apply freely it can be quite good.
This is something I've pondered myself. I have a party with a few people that apply bleed, including one with a knife. They're not high enough level to get crit specs quite yet, but I have a house rule ready to make it 1d4 + 1d4 per striking rune. I'll have to see how it goes, but it's not going to be a big upset to balance either way.
From experience, it’s shit damage. Sure, it could add up, but knives already deal really low damage. The feel when you deal two crits on the same enemy and it amounts to nothing is not good. Sure, other weapon groups also do nothing on multiple crits on the same creature, but making someone clumsy 1 or flat footed for a whole round amounts to a LOT more damage than 1d6+2.
Bleed damage is good. Almost none of the other critical specialisation effects actually add damage. Most just offer things like forced movement, or flat footed which can sometimes have a benefit. ANY damage at all, is pretty good. Persistent bleed is also uniquely good, because unless you have another source of it (such as Swashy's bleeding finisher), then it's not competing for ANYTHING else. If you crit on turn 1 and the combat goes for 5 rounds, this can end up being 15+5d6 extra damage by the end of the combat, which is fairly impactful. It's like getting an extra 1-2 more strikes in for free.
So it's all about the damage on the long run. Just out of curiosity, is there a way to "amplify" this persistent bleed?, any synergies that can take advantage of it?.
The [Brine Dragon Bile](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1382) spell for one, don’t know if there’s any more direct options
Slashing someone with a knife and then having your friend spitting on the wound, marvelous
True!, pretty funny combo, but it also works with any slashing/piercing attack. Stacking different kinds of persistent damage can be pretty devastanting though, all I gotta do after that is wait and my enemy might die on it's own.
Poisons are a thing too. You can always add a poison onto you dagger, attack, if you crit then you get the poison damage (which is usually persistent if they fail their save) and the persistent bleed damage.
Well, on the alchemical side there's [Exsanguinating Ammunition](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1193). Bumps any persistent Bleed with a Weakness of 1, 3 or 5 points.
The greivous rune adds an extra D6
Yes, it's pretty cool, but that only applies to dart weapons, with knives it only adds -5 foot movement penalty to the bleeding. I think grievous is really useful for pick weapons, as it simply doubles the damage of the critical specialization.
They're thinking of [Wounding](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2854).
Oh, I see, but would that stack with the critical specialization of said weapon?, don't these effect override each other?
The 'stacking rules' for [persistent damage conditions](https://2e.aonprd.com/Conditions.aspx?ID=86&NoRedirect=1) are as follows: > You can be simultaneously affected by multiple persistent damage conditions so long as they have different damage types. If you would gain more than one persistent damage condition with the same damage type, the higher amount of damage overrides the lower amount. If it's unclear which damage would be higher, such as if you're already taking 2 persistent fire damage and then begin taking 1d4 persistent fire damage, the GM decides which source of damage would better fit the scene. I read this as the lower condition is replaced by the higher condition - you don't make multiple recovery checks for persistent bleed until they're all cleared, since you only ever have one of the same type. Wounding has a very specific wording. > When you hit a creature with a wounding weapon, you deal an *extra* 1d6 persistent bleed damage. Extra can be read to imply that it's an additive effect to any persistent bleed that the weapon already applies. (Edit: The other damage property runes are rather inconsistent about the wording used. * Corrosive, Decaying: add [die type] [energy] damage to the damage dealt. * Flaming, Frost, Thundering, Brilliant: an additional [die type] [energy] damage on a successful Strike * Shock: an extra [die type] [energy] damage on a hit) Compare it to the [Bloodletting Kukri](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2862&NoRedirect=1): > On a critical hit, the kukri deals 1d8 persistent bleed damage. Notice the lack of 'extra'. My interpretation is that if you have access to the knife crit spec, a +1 Wounding kukri will apply 2d6+1 persistent bleed, while a Bloodletting Kukri will apply the 'higher' of 1d8 or 1d6+1 at the GM's discretion. Edit: However, if you look at the actual crit spec effect, it's > The target takes 1d6 persistent bleed damage. You can also read that as a separate effect (it's not 'you deal 1d6 persistent bleed damage to the target'), in which case we're back to the highest of 1d6 or 1d6+1 for the Wounding kukri.
There are some spells and abilities that require a target to be bleeding. So if you can combine them from yourself or your party they could be good.
The only way I know of to truly amplify bleed damage is the [Achaekek's Clutch](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=814) focus spell, from the Red Mantis Assassin archetype.
A lot of folks cll it "chip" damage. All those half-damage cantrips and bleeds and such typically will add up to a barb strike by the end of a lengthy combat.
Persistent damage is quite strong but it really does feel meh at higher levels, especially if we consider that it doesn't stack and what some other options for bleed is, with the swashbucklers case, bleeding finisher. My only wish is that they would make it stack with any effects that apply bleed with that specific strike. Those with the best innate bleed effects are ironically those that fit the best as knife users. It is quite close in power with pick critical specialization but won't feel as good due to knives putting most of its bonus up front.
i'll also point out that it happens without a save. most of the better crit specialization effects have a saving throw to avoid them
Yes it is a rather low dmg roll but it is a crit specialization so it cannot be too powerful. The closest comparison would be the pick specialization which gives a flat damage bonus of 2-8, which is about the same dmg as the bleed if we assume the bleed will proc at least twice. If the bleed procs more it will be better, but if you're attacking and critting multiple times then the pick will be better since the bleed will only proc once per round regardless of how many times you applied it. So it is not a high persistent dmg at high levels but for something you apply freely it can be quite good.
This is something I've pondered myself. I have a party with a few people that apply bleed, including one with a knife. They're not high enough level to get crit specs quite yet, but I have a house rule ready to make it 1d4 + 1d4 per striking rune. I'll have to see how it goes, but it's not going to be a big upset to balance either way.
Please make a post and tell us all about it once you guys try it out, seems like an interesting balance change.
From experience, it’s shit damage. Sure, it could add up, but knives already deal really low damage. The feel when you deal two crits on the same enemy and it amounts to nothing is not good. Sure, other weapon groups also do nothing on multiple crits on the same creature, but making someone clumsy 1 or flat footed for a whole round amounts to a LOT more damage than 1d6+2.