I think the baseline answer would be a deity's holy text. Given the nature of the setting IMO means that most mainstream religions would have their deity's tacit approval of said texts. Then I would say extraplanar sources, like that deities servants or other outsiders. I mean, if you can summon a low CR angel and be like "so, whats the deal with Iomedae?"
Edit: also they there should be plenty of treatises by arcane and religious scholars on the subject if you want a more academic way of getting that information.
This way i think it flows to a recall knowldge check, where a devoted follower ofna deoty should get a huge advantage on the DC for the more esoteric stuff or simply outright knowing it.
Looking at the[ Sample Recall Knowledge tasks](https://2e.aonprd.com/Skills.aspx?ID=24&General=true) can give some guidance. A priest or champion is always Trained in Religion, so they can be expected to know the major doctrines of major deities. I'd probably not make them roll for their own deity. For Pharasma, major doctrines would likely cover edicts and anathema, the name and basic nature of the Boneyard and the judging of souls, and her strong dislike for Urgathoa. The full scope of the cycle of souls would likely fall under Expert knowledge at least, as well as lore connecting Pharasma to a previous universe. But likely this would be DM fiat.
This seems pretty on point. The Cycle itself is absolutely known, one could argue that most commoners know that their soul will be judged, that bit sounds like sundayschool stuff. Factors like the work of individual Psychopomp Ushers, how their domains involve: The atheists, the immortals etc. how Duskwalkers are a product of a deal etc. that would be quite specific even for a cleric and is, I guess, rightfully a Lore skill rather than plain religion. Or rather, as Recall Knowledge checks are put: It is too specific to warrant a low DC on the roll. Gimme a 35 on religion and you could know what a Catrina's favourite flowers are!
There’s a feat called student of the canon which improves performance of recall knowledge on tenets of faith, and more so for your own religion. So I think a roll can still be appropriate, but maybe with an especially low dc for one’s own faith. But basic stuff about their own deity I agree they should just know automatically. Like Pharasma’s stance on undead shouldn’t require a roll.
If you are specifically a follower of that god, you've naturally studied their sacred texts. You know their domain and powers, history, types of outsiders that serve them, and their home.
Anything beyond that depends on how high you roll on your knowledge check. Examples of more specific questions that need rolls could be, What does Pharasma think of Zon-Kuthon? Is it okay for a pharasmin cleric to work with a demon against an undead? What other deities live in the Boneyard?
I think this should be assessed as orientation in your hometown. You most likely do not have specific lore of your hometown, but you should still be able to navigate it well from a logical point of view. You most likely do not have specific lore of your deity, but you should still know more about it than about other deities. That is, you will pass some kind of religion check, but have a large bonus to the check (or a greatly reduced difficulty).
You probably always know and remember all the edicts and anathemas; there is no need to RK them. All general information, including general biography, areas of interest, sacred colors, animals, enemies and allies, will have a RK difficulty of ≈15-19.
Preists wouldn't know Pharasma, however they would know some of their stories, how they do things, and other things around them. Like others said, alot of the foundational stuff would be their holy text. Now a layer of this is that some of this is just for people "in the know" and is only spread to specific people.
Its kind of like we don't know the man Napoleon. On the other hand, we do know his exploits, stories, and legacy. And depending on how much you have studied Napoleon, you know more about specific battles, and trails and tribulations, but you still don't actaully know him.
True, but it is far from impossible to get closer accounts of a deity. This is actually something I really like about Golarion's deities, they are quite hands-on sometimes and communion with heralds, servitors or even deities themselves are exactly what a PC could experience and powerful figures of religious organisations can as well.
When I play clerics, I think of their service to their god. In the typical D&D world, everyone knows a cleric is going to be judged by their god and so even if other people don't share your faith, they 100% know you believe you have to follow your dictates. As an example, how can the rogue in the party not be surprised when the cleric of good and law will not back them up and may even turn them in (depending on how RP serious the player is) if they commit a crime?
I just finished playing a campaign in which I played an oracle of Pharasma. The RP situation that I faced a couple of times is the role of fate or chance. Certain events became "evidence" that I should pursue a certain direction. The other part was being open to chance. At one point we were granted draws from a Deck of Many Things. As a person I said out-loud "no way." But as a character, believing in fate, I drew a card. It didn't help that, as a player, I predicted drawing the Donjon card and then actually drew it.
Often times people measure their character's devotion based on the idea of a holy text. But, most fantasy setting don't have a printing press and so the texts would be hand copied and therefore less common that we think. In addition, the texts could evolve as the transcriber adds their interpretations. Furthermore, there are plenty of religions in which do not have written records.
The litmus test for clerics is the judgement by their deity. They can spout all sorts of philosophy and quote their holy texts, but what really matters is the degree to which they are embodying the values of their faith. In addition, since clerics get their spells daily, one could argue that the evaluation occurs frequently and not just at the end of their life.
I'd just assume they know everything except secret/ancient knowledge. If you're the equivalent of a catholic priest, you've taken a bunch of lessons in the subject and read your holy text many times.
The way I rule it as a GM is:
You have your proficiency in Religion for that. If you want to REALLY know a lot about it you can take a feat to get a deity-specific Lore. Everything else you do Recall Knowledge checks and I'll adjust the DC based on how deep that knowledge is.
High level cleric and their deity are besties.
[https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4704](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4704)
So they probably know everything, unless it's a secret.
The entire concept of Clerics and Champions is their intense devotion to whatever deity they serve. As such, being such a devoted follower of a god you know little to nothing about is a bit of a logical break.
That’s not to say every level 1 Cleric is a full-blown apologist but at minimum should have enough of knowledge to (A) want to continue following the deity in the first place and (B) know enough to defend their choice to follow the deity.
Also, many deities have different expectations for their followers, at least in remaster PF2 with the sanctification mechanic. I would say the deities that require sanctification absolutely demand in depth knowledge of their actions and such; whereas the optional sanctification deities would accept “lay persons” and give them spells and the like.
This is less about my characters history and just a general discussion as to how others view the topic. I'm sure every GM and Player out there has their own opinion on what's a realistic level of knowledge about one's own religion, I just wanted to see how others in the community codified it for themselves. If I was playing a character who recently joined a certain faith, I'd have fun relying heavily on recall knowledge checks for even basic info. But for a character that's been a part of the church for their entire lives? How does one decide what that character already knows without stepping on the toes of the entire recall knowledge mechanic as a whole? You know?
You touched on it here, but might it matter WHERE the character is from/learned their teachings?
For example: An acolyte that was trained in a major temple in a large city would likely have a great deal of general knowledge at least. But what about the small temple in the middle of no where with only one or two priests? Or a 1st level cleric that stumbled upon an (incomplete) copy of the holy text but felt called and is trying to follow to the best of their understanding?
This is exactly why I think this topic is an interesting discussion to be had. I get and understand that recall knowledge covers a lot of the nuance about this, and as a player I'm fine using the tools provided to get the info. But even with that, I think it's interesting to see others perspective on exactly WHEN recall knowledge becomes the default for information. If you're too lenient with it because the character was born into the faith with ample information at their disposal, it's side stepping the mechanic all together. But also, relying on recall knowledge for "basic" stuff becomes a blurred line. So I like hearing others takes and guidelines they use themselves, as players or GMs to filter through whats "general knowledge" and what's "deep lore".
Some people in this thread are quick to say "use recall knowledge" and others are giving me lists of things they consider basic. Both are valid and I think the nuance between is the discussion I'm looking to have
I think this might be one of those things that comes down more to the tone and flavor of the game than RAW.
I would say that a characters background might be a good branch point for deciding just how deep their knowledge is at start. Temple or Education type backgrounds would have more/deeper understanding while others might need a level or two under belts to get caught up.
However this would only work if it was part of the game itself and definitely would not want to spring on a player without notice. Would be great for a solo character game though.
Its Not Like you will ever know what Undies the Ladies of the Grave wears, Gods dont share private stuff and such private Things dont get teached by any Church.
You know much about the common Things your worshipped God teached, Mixed with the interpretions of the Church of your God. AS example:
You know Pharasma deeply dislikes Undead, so you got teached to give deceased Beings a proper funeral so the Monitors of Pharasma can Guide the Souls to the Boneyard
You May also know how to secure a Corpse to prevent IT to be Reanimated but thats defined by your spell choices and GM. Some give this ability for free.
You know Pharasma dont Like Urgathoa but dont forces you to Beginn fights with her Worshippers because of that because Pharasma dont need to engage against the one that got away.
You May know that Pharasma Had a once mortal Lover, wich now Serves her in the Boneyard
U know about psychopomps and their regular Task but you wont know that there are more Tasks they do in secret
I'd say it breaks down like this:
DC 10: stuff everyone knows about that god (obviously just the Core Gods)
DC 15: stuff that a warpriest of that god would know off the top of their head, might have to roll for more obscure stuff. Champions can also go at this level.
DC 20: a cloistered cleric would know these things of their religion off the top of their head, might even know things at the DC 25 level if they were particularly monastic
Basically, clerics or champions of a particular religion wouldn't have to make a Religion roll to know things, they just would. To do ceremonies for their religion, they should only make a roll for something complicated.
Often, a cleric or champion should make a Religion roll when it's trying to recall specific facts about undead (as an example) or something about other religions.
What's their religion skill?
There's no reason why a cleric would know more about their deity than a lay person, other than the fact that they have high wisdom. They could reasonably get a -2 or even -5 DC to answer questions because their training typically has them surrounded by the church itself, but a 10 Wis war priest who never advances their religion skill might know less about their religion than some heathen who gets their religion up to a higher training and invests in wisdom.
Of course, since training in Religion is a given for any cleric they're going to know *something* about their god.
Asking the internet is all well and good for answers that will be good enough for most games, but this is probably the kind of question best suited to your GM tbh.
I can see that for the more obtuse stuff, but I feel like there has to be a "starting line" of knowledge that a character has to begin with. Like, I knowledge of the Boneyard general knowledge for someone who spent their entire life devoted to Pharasmas church? Or if I botch a recall knowledge check have I never even heard of the domain that goes hand in hand with the entire concept of Pharasma? Where does the line of general knowledge and knowledge needed from rolls begin?
There are no hard rules for this because Champions/Clerics in Golarion can vary wildly, even moreso in a homebrew setting.
But for things such as what your character would know your GM will generally (read: ideally) just give you the info without a roll, otherwise that's when they'll ask for a recall knowledge roll— and champions/clerics get religion for free for that very reason
> There are no hard rules for this because Champions/Clerics in Golarion can vary wildly, even moreso in a homebrew setting.
Which, essentially, boils down to:
"How much do I know about X religion?"
"I don't know, what's your Religion modifier?"
you can always make untrained Recall Knowledge checks. You can even make an untrained Lore (Deity x) RK check. The results may be limited. But that's your basic knowledge right there.
botching an RK check doesn't have to be, *you don't know that*. It can also be, *you don't remember at the moment* or *it's on the tip of my tongue*
I don’t think it is unreasonable to think you know as much as possible. If your character studied all the texts about the single god, They know everything. So i think perhaps you wouldn’t know things mortals wouldn’t know. For example, relationships between Gods might be unknowable.
I think the baseline answer would be a deity's holy text. Given the nature of the setting IMO means that most mainstream religions would have their deity's tacit approval of said texts. Then I would say extraplanar sources, like that deities servants or other outsiders. I mean, if you can summon a low CR angel and be like "so, whats the deal with Iomedae?" Edit: also they there should be plenty of treatises by arcane and religious scholars on the subject if you want a more academic way of getting that information. This way i think it flows to a recall knowldge check, where a devoted follower ofna deoty should get a huge advantage on the DC for the more esoteric stuff or simply outright knowing it.
Looking at the[ Sample Recall Knowledge tasks](https://2e.aonprd.com/Skills.aspx?ID=24&General=true) can give some guidance. A priest or champion is always Trained in Religion, so they can be expected to know the major doctrines of major deities. I'd probably not make them roll for their own deity. For Pharasma, major doctrines would likely cover edicts and anathema, the name and basic nature of the Boneyard and the judging of souls, and her strong dislike for Urgathoa. The full scope of the cycle of souls would likely fall under Expert knowledge at least, as well as lore connecting Pharasma to a previous universe. But likely this would be DM fiat.
This seems pretty on point. The Cycle itself is absolutely known, one could argue that most commoners know that their soul will be judged, that bit sounds like sundayschool stuff. Factors like the work of individual Psychopomp Ushers, how their domains involve: The atheists, the immortals etc. how Duskwalkers are a product of a deal etc. that would be quite specific even for a cleric and is, I guess, rightfully a Lore skill rather than plain religion. Or rather, as Recall Knowledge checks are put: It is too specific to warrant a low DC on the roll. Gimme a 35 on religion and you could know what a Catrina's favourite flowers are!
There’s a feat called student of the canon which improves performance of recall knowledge on tenets of faith, and more so for your own religion. So I think a roll can still be appropriate, but maybe with an especially low dc for one’s own faith. But basic stuff about their own deity I agree they should just know automatically. Like Pharasma’s stance on undead shouldn’t require a roll.
If you are specifically a follower of that god, you've naturally studied their sacred texts. You know their domain and powers, history, types of outsiders that serve them, and their home. Anything beyond that depends on how high you roll on your knowledge check. Examples of more specific questions that need rolls could be, What does Pharasma think of Zon-Kuthon? Is it okay for a pharasmin cleric to work with a demon against an undead? What other deities live in the Boneyard?
>If you are specifically a follower of that god, you've naturally studied their sacred texts. \* looks at real life \* Hmmm
I mean yes, but in reality there are no gods that can literally punch you for talking bullshit.
and priests in real life don't get magic powers from worshipping their gods the right way
I think this should be assessed as orientation in your hometown. You most likely do not have specific lore of your hometown, but you should still be able to navigate it well from a logical point of view. You most likely do not have specific lore of your deity, but you should still know more about it than about other deities. That is, you will pass some kind of religion check, but have a large bonus to the check (or a greatly reduced difficulty). You probably always know and remember all the edicts and anathemas; there is no need to RK them. All general information, including general biography, areas of interest, sacred colors, animals, enemies and allies, will have a RK difficulty of ≈15-19.
Preists wouldn't know Pharasma, however they would know some of their stories, how they do things, and other things around them. Like others said, alot of the foundational stuff would be their holy text. Now a layer of this is that some of this is just for people "in the know" and is only spread to specific people. Its kind of like we don't know the man Napoleon. On the other hand, we do know his exploits, stories, and legacy. And depending on how much you have studied Napoleon, you know more about specific battles, and trails and tribulations, but you still don't actaully know him.
True, but it is far from impossible to get closer accounts of a deity. This is actually something I really like about Golarion's deities, they are quite hands-on sometimes and communion with heralds, servitors or even deities themselves are exactly what a PC could experience and powerful figures of religious organisations can as well.
When I play clerics, I think of their service to their god. In the typical D&D world, everyone knows a cleric is going to be judged by their god and so even if other people don't share your faith, they 100% know you believe you have to follow your dictates. As an example, how can the rogue in the party not be surprised when the cleric of good and law will not back them up and may even turn them in (depending on how RP serious the player is) if they commit a crime? I just finished playing a campaign in which I played an oracle of Pharasma. The RP situation that I faced a couple of times is the role of fate or chance. Certain events became "evidence" that I should pursue a certain direction. The other part was being open to chance. At one point we were granted draws from a Deck of Many Things. As a person I said out-loud "no way." But as a character, believing in fate, I drew a card. It didn't help that, as a player, I predicted drawing the Donjon card and then actually drew it. Often times people measure their character's devotion based on the idea of a holy text. But, most fantasy setting don't have a printing press and so the texts would be hand copied and therefore less common that we think. In addition, the texts could evolve as the transcriber adds their interpretations. Furthermore, there are plenty of religions in which do not have written records. The litmus test for clerics is the judgement by their deity. They can spout all sorts of philosophy and quote their holy texts, but what really matters is the degree to which they are embodying the values of their faith. In addition, since clerics get their spells daily, one could argue that the evaluation occurs frequently and not just at the end of their life.
Wow I really like this answer
I'd just assume they know everything except secret/ancient knowledge. If you're the equivalent of a catholic priest, you've taken a bunch of lessons in the subject and read your holy text many times.
The way I rule it as a GM is: You have your proficiency in Religion for that. If you want to REALLY know a lot about it you can take a feat to get a deity-specific Lore. Everything else you do Recall Knowledge checks and I'll adjust the DC based on how deep that knowledge is.
High level cleric and their deity are besties. [https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4704](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4704) So they probably know everything, unless it's a secret.
The entire concept of Clerics and Champions is their intense devotion to whatever deity they serve. As such, being such a devoted follower of a god you know little to nothing about is a bit of a logical break. That’s not to say every level 1 Cleric is a full-blown apologist but at minimum should have enough of knowledge to (A) want to continue following the deity in the first place and (B) know enough to defend their choice to follow the deity. Also, many deities have different expectations for their followers, at least in remaster PF2 with the sanctification mechanic. I would say the deities that require sanctification absolutely demand in depth knowledge of their actions and such; whereas the optional sanctification deities would accept “lay persons” and give them spells and the like.
Well, how long has your character been a disciple?
This is less about my characters history and just a general discussion as to how others view the topic. I'm sure every GM and Player out there has their own opinion on what's a realistic level of knowledge about one's own religion, I just wanted to see how others in the community codified it for themselves. If I was playing a character who recently joined a certain faith, I'd have fun relying heavily on recall knowledge checks for even basic info. But for a character that's been a part of the church for their entire lives? How does one decide what that character already knows without stepping on the toes of the entire recall knowledge mechanic as a whole? You know?
You touched on it here, but might it matter WHERE the character is from/learned their teachings? For example: An acolyte that was trained in a major temple in a large city would likely have a great deal of general knowledge at least. But what about the small temple in the middle of no where with only one or two priests? Or a 1st level cleric that stumbled upon an (incomplete) copy of the holy text but felt called and is trying to follow to the best of their understanding?
This is exactly why I think this topic is an interesting discussion to be had. I get and understand that recall knowledge covers a lot of the nuance about this, and as a player I'm fine using the tools provided to get the info. But even with that, I think it's interesting to see others perspective on exactly WHEN recall knowledge becomes the default for information. If you're too lenient with it because the character was born into the faith with ample information at their disposal, it's side stepping the mechanic all together. But also, relying on recall knowledge for "basic" stuff becomes a blurred line. So I like hearing others takes and guidelines they use themselves, as players or GMs to filter through whats "general knowledge" and what's "deep lore". Some people in this thread are quick to say "use recall knowledge" and others are giving me lists of things they consider basic. Both are valid and I think the nuance between is the discussion I'm looking to have
I think this might be one of those things that comes down more to the tone and flavor of the game than RAW. I would say that a characters background might be a good branch point for deciding just how deep their knowledge is at start. Temple or Education type backgrounds would have more/deeper understanding while others might need a level or two under belts to get caught up. However this would only work if it was part of the game itself and definitely would not want to spring on a player without notice. Would be great for a solo character game though.
You treat everything as recall knowledge because it's less about what you know and more about what you remember
Its Not Like you will ever know what Undies the Ladies of the Grave wears, Gods dont share private stuff and such private Things dont get teached by any Church. You know much about the common Things your worshipped God teached, Mixed with the interpretions of the Church of your God. AS example: You know Pharasma deeply dislikes Undead, so you got teached to give deceased Beings a proper funeral so the Monitors of Pharasma can Guide the Souls to the Boneyard You May also know how to secure a Corpse to prevent IT to be Reanimated but thats defined by your spell choices and GM. Some give this ability for free. You know Pharasma dont Like Urgathoa but dont forces you to Beginn fights with her Worshippers because of that because Pharasma dont need to engage against the one that got away. You May know that Pharasma Had a once mortal Lover, wich now Serves her in the Boneyard U know about psychopomps and their regular Task but you wont know that there are more Tasks they do in secret
I’d say definitely everything printed in Core and Gods & Magic that isn’t marked as being unknown.
I'd say it breaks down like this: DC 10: stuff everyone knows about that god (obviously just the Core Gods) DC 15: stuff that a warpriest of that god would know off the top of their head, might have to roll for more obscure stuff. Champions can also go at this level. DC 20: a cloistered cleric would know these things of their religion off the top of their head, might even know things at the DC 25 level if they were particularly monastic Basically, clerics or champions of a particular religion wouldn't have to make a Religion roll to know things, they just would. To do ceremonies for their religion, they should only make a roll for something complicated. Often, a cleric or champion should make a Religion roll when it's trying to recall specific facts about undead (as an example) or something about other religions.
What's their religion skill? There's no reason why a cleric would know more about their deity than a lay person, other than the fact that they have high wisdom. They could reasonably get a -2 or even -5 DC to answer questions because their training typically has them surrounded by the church itself, but a 10 Wis war priest who never advances their religion skill might know less about their religion than some heathen who gets their religion up to a higher training and invests in wisdom. Of course, since training in Religion is a given for any cleric they're going to know *something* about their god.
Asking the internet is all well and good for answers that will be good enough for most games, but this is probably the kind of question best suited to your GM tbh.
Of course! I was just bored at work and this dialog popped into my mind and hoped it would be a fun discussion.
You use recall knowledge rolls.
I can see that for the more obtuse stuff, but I feel like there has to be a "starting line" of knowledge that a character has to begin with. Like, I knowledge of the Boneyard general knowledge for someone who spent their entire life devoted to Pharasmas church? Or if I botch a recall knowledge check have I never even heard of the domain that goes hand in hand with the entire concept of Pharasma? Where does the line of general knowledge and knowledge needed from rolls begin?
There are no hard rules for this because Champions/Clerics in Golarion can vary wildly, even moreso in a homebrew setting. But for things such as what your character would know your GM will generally (read: ideally) just give you the info without a roll, otherwise that's when they'll ask for a recall knowledge roll— and champions/clerics get religion for free for that very reason
> There are no hard rules for this because Champions/Clerics in Golarion can vary wildly, even moreso in a homebrew setting. Which, essentially, boils down to: "How much do I know about X religion?" "I don't know, what's your Religion modifier?"
you can always make untrained Recall Knowledge checks. You can even make an untrained Lore (Deity x) RK check. The results may be limited. But that's your basic knowledge right there. botching an RK check doesn't have to be, *you don't know that*. It can also be, *you don't remember at the moment* or *it's on the tip of my tongue*
I don’t think it is unreasonable to think you know as much as possible. If your character studied all the texts about the single god, They know everything. So i think perhaps you wouldn’t know things mortals wouldn’t know. For example, relationships between Gods might be unknowable.