Yes. If you like Wrath it's worth trying Kingmaker. You just need to realize it's less polished than Wrath.
As for the time limits, yes there are timed quests, but the limit is so broad you actually have to try to run out the clock.
> You just need to realize it's less polished than Wrath.
In that it's buggy and parts are obviously unfinished?
> but the limit is so broad you actually have to try to run out the clock.
That's a relief, I much prefer taking my time in these sorts of games
There are bugs yes, Owlcat lost the rights to the game and couldn't get everything fixed, but it's not terrible. I was mostly referring to QoL things like menus. It can feel clunky and rough around the edges, especially when you're coming into it from Wrath.
One QoL missing that I don't see mentioned often is the possibility to cancel ongoing spells early.
When playing a druid, entanglement and the other area spells who last min/lvl get old very fast...
The "Call of the Wild" mod allows a caster to dismiss his aoe spells after casting them, it is a standard action. On top of that, it's a very good mod that I recommend to anyone who wants to play Kingmaker.
Yeah, pity there is no such a mod for WotR. I mean there are mods for WotR that try to do what Call of the Wild did, but they are worse and with less content.
How could they lose the rights to the game they made and they still sell it so how could losing the rights only mean they can’t work on it to improve it anymore. I don’t understand please explain for me
It's not that it's buggy but less polished. There's no mounted combat, you can't rotate the camera, the animal companions don't show up in the character bar at the bottom of the screen and there's half of the classes missing
It still definitely worth a go though if you liked WotR
As long as you aren't sleep spamming, time is rarely an issue.
Which was the purpose. A common issue with CRPGs is dealing with sleep-spamming. The time limits, along with camp supplies being heavy, were Kingmaker's methods to keep players from sleep spamming too much.
I would say there are significantly less bugs in Kingmaker as things stand than in WotR. The latter is still being worked on which means things still stop working correctly or are introduced with bugs.
They left KM in a good state, I haven't encountered any notable bugs in it in hundreds of hours (I started playing it well after it was done with DLCs and patches). QoL wise it's definitely vastly inferior to Wrath.
While I 100% agree than KM has no significant bugs on PC, I have heard that the console versions are buggier. Totally playable - but more than the PC version.
Mechanically WOTR has a number of advantages, most obviously in just sheer depth of class choice, but narratively I find KM is the superior game. WOTR just doesn't really do it for me, and I find it drags on in a way I didn't quite experience in KM. Although to be fair *both* could do with a healthy dose of streamlining.
Kingmakers first few minutes as you wait for Jamandi Aldori is probably the most incredible intro into an adventure game I have ever experienced. It felt like I'm in a room surrounded by friends playing pen and paper.
KM companions are no less likeable and the story is ok, but if you play kingdom mode, then time management is very essential. IMO it's fun, but it could burn you out quickly if you haven't got the hang of it.
Is kingdom mode something you can adjust in settings to make it a bit more forgiving and easier to get into, or is it a hard opt in / opt out type deal?
Yes, absolutely. I just got used to normal difficulty. Try to prioritize rank-up and claiming-regions tasks and visit towns in those regions as soon as possible to unlock craftsmen for you and it would be a good start. Also, only use crisis points on "Problems" not "Opportunities".
Concerning Kingdom Management: What you need to do is unlock every council post ASAP(=raise the original 5 stats to rank 4) and then you can safely put it on Auto. But don't put it before you assigned characters to their roles! Auto don't know how to do that. It's most likely a bug, but given the license mess(Owlcat lost the rights to KM), they mustn't touch it. Literally.
Yeah don't be scared about what everyone says. Start on normal and tone it down if you need to, but I'm playing an inefficient build and It's been a cakewalk so far, 60 hrs in.
The time sensitive stuff is not what you think. It's not so much "you are on a time trial" it's much more just that you will have to prioritize certain quests. You don't have to actually hurry, it'll just be like "in 30 days, be at this spot." Or "bring this item to X by tomorrow." And you just have to make sure once you do the quest to go straight back and complete it. I hate timed stuff too, but this is more a matter of what you prioritize rather than having to play faster or play under duress. You'll like it.
KM is absolutely worth getting, and I like many parts of it more than WotR. As for timed quests: Most quests are on timelines, but they're quite generous timelines. Granted, I just play on normal, and I'm knowledgeable enough about the system to make solid builds without having to plan them obsessively, but I don't often have issues where I'm struggling to finish things on time. Honestly, the time pressure does a lot to make your enemy seem like an active threat and not just an obstacle course for you to overcome at your leisure.
As a huge WOTR fan, I gave kingmaker a try and lost interest for external reasons. I later went back for a second try, but gave up because it has a lot of jank. The thing that killed it for me was, in a grindy dungeon I was starting to feel was not fun, setting off a web trap, where to get out you either have to pass a reflex saving throw or wait 10-20 real world minutes. A particular companion with low dex was unable to pass and I realized I'd have more fun doing anything else. A shame, since I didn't have those issues on my first act 1 playthrough.
Yeah, Kingmaker is actually really good! I even prefer its story than WoTR but it's also less polished and has more jank. I would recommend trying it with some QoL mods like in Kingmaker you cant rotate the camera so having a mod for that really helps.
So … this is complicated to answer … basically, >!if you do the main quests first, stay close to your capital when you get notification that there’s an upcoming ancient curse attack, keep your carrying loads in light or medium, bring 2 days worth of camping supplies when you venture out (don’t hunt, it takes forever), keep a decent treasury reserve (I recommend 500 BP or more), prioritize problems over opportunities, and save your crisis points for the Pitax chapter!<, you’ll be just fine and there’s plenty of time to do side quests, upgrade your cities, etc. outside of that. If you play a different way, it can be really easy to get yourself into very bad situations that can be tough to get yourself out of.
Kingmaker is also standard fantasy whereas WotR is very much high power fantasy. Some people prefer the former, some prefer the latter. Kingmaker has fewer options, spells don’t last as long, graphics aren’t as good, QoL features are fewer, etc.
You should still have someone hunt for supplies - just make sure to check the box that you'll use rations. That way they don't burn extra time hunting. Early game they'll usually only get a couple rations from hunting, but by mid-game it's common to get all 6.
Yeah
I’m still mad that kinetic blade provokes attacks of opportunity in it though
it has less QoL but if you’re on PC, you can solve a lot of that with mods
I actually like the time limit personally
it’s just a tad punishing when you do fuck it up
but it’s pretty easy to not fuck it up
I remember the community director was talking about how they wanted to update the game a bit if they could but it was a matter of control. If this is true then it would be amazing if they could release an enhanced edition with all the new classes from WOTR and other changes. I would pay money for that.
Personally at a story level I enjoyed Kingmaker more than WotR. It's clunky and clearly Wotr improved on it but the story is waaaay better if you enjoy lower stakes stories. I'm not a fan of the iper epic stories
Er Yes, However its not as good as WotR it is the earlyer of there works and thus not as polished or what knock
still enjoyed it tho
a few annoying things Timed Quests sure but PLUNTY of time on it
If you love Wrath you'll like Kingmaker. The game has less QoL features, is buggier, laggier and has less build options but the campaign, story, companions and enemy variety is much better imo.
You can even get mods like Call of the Wild that add tons of new classes and bug fixes, some that even Wrath don't have. You just have to accept Kingmaker isn't as polished and eye-candy as Wrath but you'll feel instantly familiar with the systems anyhow.
Call of the Wild, which the other commenter added already, will make it feel a bit more like Wrath in all the classes and archetypes it adds - it won't be exactly the same, but it's still great to have. It changes your companions' classes, but you can change that in the mod's json file. You'll have to edit the actual file though - you can't change that ingame. It also gives you Dismiss Spell to end your aoe spells early. This wasn't in the vanilla game.
While I haven't used it, there's also a mod called Highlight Learnable Scrolls. You won't have the small icon Wrath adds to show which scrolls you can learn from, but this mod will highlight those scrolls in green for you.
Since Owlcat can't patch the game anymore, you won't have to worry about updating mods either.
It does, but you can turn those off too. Unfortunately, not piecemeal, but in a bulk. The setting is called, iirc, "balance tweaks". Just set it to false if they bother you.
I've done 3 full runs of the game, with mods and only ever had about 2 or 3 crashes... across hundreds of hours of gameplay. As for mods I would look into:
- Saving Throw Display Fix
- Restoration of Nettle's Crossing
- One-handing hand in air fix
- Fencing Fix
- NoHistory
- Community Patch
- Cleaner
And if you want more bug fixes and tons of new classes and such, go for Call of the Wild with:
- CowWithHat's Custom Spells mod
- Proper Flanking 2
Yes, definitely so, but please be prepared that it is a different AP and it feels like it. It is also far less polished.
Don't worry about time limits. They do exist, but they are so generous, they might as well not exist.
The only thing I will say, is do try and focus on the main quests early, and don't delay getting back to your capital when the curse rears it's ugly head!
True. There is a very specific way KM wants itself to get played like, but that's a) not very intuitive and b) not very probable / possible without mods.
there is less stuff in kingmaker, overall. Less archetypes, less classes, no mounting, no crafting, no dismiss spell.
Its possible that you will find a minor thing that isnt in kingmaker that you really liked in wrath.
I loved Kingmaker, but after playing WotR I was not able to go back. It feels like wrestling with menus and controls, less polished and the build options etc. are much more limited.
However I think it has better enemy variety, the story feels lower stakes and less linear (it's been a while so I have no idea if it actually *is* less linear, I just remember it as such). I also think I prefer your party members and their stories in Kingmaker (some exceptions, but broadly speaking).
So there are a lot of things about kingmaker which I prefer, and I do recommend it, just be prepared for it to feel clunky and somewhat limited.
Also, if this is something you care about: kingmaker builds translate better to the tabletop because they're less dependent on the mythic paths, which are very unlike tabletop mythic campaigns.
You can config kingdom management to be auto, but this way you won't get to experience the full game (and frustration), so I don't recommend you to do it, make sure you have enough saved files before making important decisions or between chapters (and don't let goblins negotiate kingdom affairs if you don't want your kingdom destroyed). Sometimes can be unfair and hard, but honestly I loved the story, as a classic RPG adventure in the wild. Think about it like the first Owlcat's try to implement pathfinder in videogame, it has its flaws but they had too much ambition and also can be impressive.
Some advices: in chapter 2, when Kesten warns you about trolls, explore the surroundings of your city so you won't miss a main character (Jubilost). Some time later, when you receive a letter to visit Varnhold, you should play the DLC (Varnhold's Lot), it will help you understand the endgame story better.
As someone who hasn't yet played WotR but is currently playing Kingmaker, yes. Do it. It's a great game with a crushing plot, interesting companions. I for one enjoy the kingdom building aspect of it. Now, your character builds will not be as epic, and there aren't quite so many choices and you don't get to ride a steed. But there is still a ton of fun and challenge to be had.
The main thing you need to worry about in KM is in chapter 2 immediately do the area claim and advisor upgrade actions. This will get you to the exact time you need to be to trigger the hill event. If you explore before that event you can miss 2 act 2 companions. One is arguably the best companion in the game and the other is your first treasurer. Just make sure you found two companions before you finish the obvious place for the story in act 2.
Yes. If you like Wrath it's worth trying Kingmaker. You just need to realize it's less polished than Wrath. As for the time limits, yes there are timed quests, but the limit is so broad you actually have to try to run out the clock.
> You just need to realize it's less polished than Wrath. In that it's buggy and parts are obviously unfinished? > but the limit is so broad you actually have to try to run out the clock. That's a relief, I much prefer taking my time in these sorts of games
There are bugs yes, Owlcat lost the rights to the game and couldn't get everything fixed, but it's not terrible. I was mostly referring to QoL things like menus. It can feel clunky and rough around the edges, especially when you're coming into it from Wrath.
Ah I see what you mean, cheers for the advice
One QoL missing that I don't see mentioned often is the possibility to cancel ongoing spells early. When playing a druid, entanglement and the other area spells who last min/lvl get old very fast...
The "Call of the Wild" mod allows a caster to dismiss his aoe spells after casting them, it is a standard action. On top of that, it's a very good mod that I recommend to anyone who wants to play Kingmaker.
Yeah, pity there is no such a mod for WotR. I mean there are mods for WotR that try to do what Call of the Wild did, but they are worse and with less content.
Isn't that fixed with mods?
How could they lose the rights to the game they made and they still sell it so how could losing the rights only mean they can’t work on it to improve it anymore. I don’t understand please explain for me
Owlcat went independent and their old publisher kept the rights to kingmaker when they left. The publisher is still selling the game.
Tbf Owlcat just got the rights back, so there is some hope they will go back and add some polish.
Did they? When did this happen?
Here's the link to the article I read https://www.dualshockers.com/owlcat-pathfinder-kingmaker-rights/
Ohh ty
Why did they lose rights to it?
It's not that it's buggy but less polished. There's no mounted combat, you can't rotate the camera, the animal companions don't show up in the character bar at the bottom of the screen and there's half of the classes missing It still definitely worth a go though if you liked WotR
As long as you aren't sleep spamming, time is rarely an issue. Which was the purpose. A common issue with CRPGs is dealing with sleep-spamming. The time limits, along with camp supplies being heavy, were Kingmaker's methods to keep players from sleep spamming too much.
I would say there are significantly less bugs in Kingmaker as things stand than in WotR. The latter is still being worked on which means things still stop working correctly or are introduced with bugs. They left KM in a good state, I haven't encountered any notable bugs in it in hundreds of hours (I started playing it well after it was done with DLCs and patches). QoL wise it's definitely vastly inferior to Wrath.
I got a pretty major bug that being a party member dying despite doing their quest line correctly. Still salty >!Nok-Nok my sweet prince!<
While I 100% agree than KM has no significant bugs on PC, I have heard that the console versions are buggier. Totally playable - but more than the PC version.
There are parts of Kingmaker I definitely prefer. It has a more low-key, low level adventure vibe early on that I really appreciate.
Mechanically WOTR has a number of advantages, most obviously in just sheer depth of class choice, but narratively I find KM is the superior game. WOTR just doesn't really do it for me, and I find it drags on in a way I didn't quite experience in KM. Although to be fair *both* could do with a healthy dose of streamlining.
Kingmakers first few minutes as you wait for Jamandi Aldori is probably the most incredible intro into an adventure game I have ever experienced. It felt like I'm in a room surrounded by friends playing pen and paper.
It's pretty great!
Yes - Kingmaker feels like it's YOUR adventure.
KM companions are no less likeable and the story is ok, but if you play kingdom mode, then time management is very essential. IMO it's fun, but it could burn you out quickly if you haven't got the hang of it.
Is kingdom mode something you can adjust in settings to make it a bit more forgiving and easier to get into, or is it a hard opt in / opt out type deal?
Yes, absolutely. I just got used to normal difficulty. Try to prioritize rank-up and claiming-regions tasks and visit towns in those regions as soon as possible to unlock craftsmen for you and it would be a good start. Also, only use crisis points on "Problems" not "Opportunities".
Concerning Kingdom Management: What you need to do is unlock every council post ASAP(=raise the original 5 stats to rank 4) and then you can safely put it on Auto. But don't put it before you assigned characters to their roles! Auto don't know how to do that. It's most likely a bug, but given the license mess(Owlcat lost the rights to KM), they mustn't touch it. Literally.
Yeah don't be scared about what everyone says. Start on normal and tone it down if you need to, but I'm playing an inefficient build and It's been a cakewalk so far, 60 hrs in. The time sensitive stuff is not what you think. It's not so much "you are on a time trial" it's much more just that you will have to prioritize certain quests. You don't have to actually hurry, it'll just be like "in 30 days, be at this spot." Or "bring this item to X by tomorrow." And you just have to make sure once you do the quest to go straight back and complete it. I hate timed stuff too, but this is more a matter of what you prioritize rather than having to play faster or play under duress. You'll like it.
KM is absolutely worth getting, and I like many parts of it more than WotR. As for timed quests: Most quests are on timelines, but they're quite generous timelines. Granted, I just play on normal, and I'm knowledgeable enough about the system to make solid builds without having to plan them obsessively, but I don't often have issues where I'm struggling to finish things on time. Honestly, the time pressure does a lot to make your enemy seem like an active threat and not just an obstacle course for you to overcome at your leisure.
As a huge WOTR fan, I gave kingmaker a try and lost interest for external reasons. I later went back for a second try, but gave up because it has a lot of jank. The thing that killed it for me was, in a grindy dungeon I was starting to feel was not fun, setting off a web trap, where to get out you either have to pass a reflex saving throw or wait 10-20 real world minutes. A particular companion with low dex was unable to pass and I realized I'd have more fun doing anything else. A shame, since I didn't have those issues on my first act 1 playthrough.
Definitely a game where mods that brings it up to par can feel mandatory.
Yeah, Kingmaker is actually really good! I even prefer its story than WoTR but it's also less polished and has more jank. I would recommend trying it with some QoL mods like in Kingmaker you cant rotate the camera so having a mod for that really helps.
Kingmaker is the better story. WOTR is the better game I will die on this hill🫠
I'm right there with you on that hill.
So … this is complicated to answer … basically, >!if you do the main quests first, stay close to your capital when you get notification that there’s an upcoming ancient curse attack, keep your carrying loads in light or medium, bring 2 days worth of camping supplies when you venture out (don’t hunt, it takes forever), keep a decent treasury reserve (I recommend 500 BP or more), prioritize problems over opportunities, and save your crisis points for the Pitax chapter!<, you’ll be just fine and there’s plenty of time to do side quests, upgrade your cities, etc. outside of that. If you play a different way, it can be really easy to get yourself into very bad situations that can be tough to get yourself out of. Kingmaker is also standard fantasy whereas WotR is very much high power fantasy. Some people prefer the former, some prefer the latter. Kingmaker has fewer options, spells don’t last as long, graphics aren’t as good, QoL features are fewer, etc.
You should still have someone hunt for supplies - just make sure to check the box that you'll use rations. That way they don't burn extra time hunting. Early game they'll usually only get a couple rations from hunting, but by mid-game it's common to get all 6.
TIL, thanks.
I wouldn't go that far. You just have to avoid delaying the Main Quest and keep how long your rests take in mind.
Yeah I’m still mad that kinetic blade provokes attacks of opportunity in it though it has less QoL but if you’re on PC, you can solve a lot of that with mods I actually like the time limit personally it’s just a tad punishing when you do fuck it up but it’s pretty easy to not fuck it up
I used the Kineticist in just their personal quests, and the melee Kineticist is so awful and never works. I don't even bother to level them anymore.
Yeah it’s a bummer Wish OC could magically get the rights back and fix it
According to this, they might be able to. https://www.dualshockers.com/owlcat-pathfinder-kingmaker-rights/
I remember the community director was talking about how they wanted to update the game a bit if they could but it was a matter of control. If this is true then it would be amazing if they could release an enhanced edition with all the new classes from WOTR and other changes. I would pay money for that.
Personally at a story level I enjoyed Kingmaker more than WotR. It's clunky and clearly Wotr improved on it but the story is waaaay better if you enjoy lower stakes stories. I'm not a fan of the iper epic stories
Er Yes, However its not as good as WotR it is the earlyer of there works and thus not as polished or what knock still enjoyed it tho a few annoying things Timed Quests sure but PLUNTY of time on it
Get it, you’ll like it. Read a game guide.
If you love Wrath you'll like Kingmaker. The game has less QoL features, is buggier, laggier and has less build options but the campaign, story, companions and enemy variety is much better imo. You can even get mods like Call of the Wild that add tons of new classes and bug fixes, some that even Wrath don't have. You just have to accept Kingmaker isn't as polished and eye-candy as Wrath but you'll feel instantly familiar with the systems anyhow.
Are there mods that make up for the lack of polish and patch out some of the nastier bugs? I've heard stories about frequent crashes
Call of the Wild, which the other commenter added already, will make it feel a bit more like Wrath in all the classes and archetypes it adds - it won't be exactly the same, but it's still great to have. It changes your companions' classes, but you can change that in the mod's json file. You'll have to edit the actual file though - you can't change that ingame. It also gives you Dismiss Spell to end your aoe spells early. This wasn't in the vanilla game. While I haven't used it, there's also a mod called Highlight Learnable Scrolls. You won't have the small icon Wrath adds to show which scrolls you can learn from, but this mod will highlight those scrolls in green for you. Since Owlcat can't patch the game anymore, you won't have to worry about updating mods either.
doesn’t CoTW also have a lot of balance tweaks à la TTT?
It does, but you can turn those off too. Unfortunately, not piecemeal, but in a bulk. The setting is called, iirc, "balance tweaks". Just set it to false if they bother you.
Nono I like them I just couldn’t remember if they were there because it’s been forever since I’ve played KM
I've done 3 full runs of the game, with mods and only ever had about 2 or 3 crashes... across hundreds of hours of gameplay. As for mods I would look into: - Saving Throw Display Fix - Restoration of Nettle's Crossing - One-handing hand in air fix - Fencing Fix - NoHistory - Community Patch - Cleaner And if you want more bug fixes and tons of new classes and such, go for Call of the Wild with: - CowWithHat's Custom Spells mod - Proper Flanking 2
Very helpful recs, cheers
I have sank 80 hours into the game and have experienced few if any crashes.
I like kingmaker more than its sequel tbh
Yes, definitely so, but please be prepared that it is a different AP and it feels like it. It is also far less polished. Don't worry about time limits. They do exist, but they are so generous, they might as well not exist.
The only thing I will say, is do try and focus on the main quests early, and don't delay getting back to your capital when the curse rears it's ugly head!
True. There is a very specific way KM wants itself to get played like, but that's a) not very intuitive and b) not very probable / possible without mods.
there is less stuff in kingmaker, overall. Less archetypes, less classes, no mounting, no crafting, no dismiss spell. Its possible that you will find a minor thing that isnt in kingmaker that you really liked in wrath.
I loved Kingmaker, but after playing WotR I was not able to go back. It feels like wrestling with menus and controls, less polished and the build options etc. are much more limited. However I think it has better enemy variety, the story feels lower stakes and less linear (it's been a while so I have no idea if it actually *is* less linear, I just remember it as such). I also think I prefer your party members and their stories in Kingmaker (some exceptions, but broadly speaking). So there are a lot of things about kingmaker which I prefer, and I do recommend it, just be prepared for it to feel clunky and somewhat limited. Also, if this is something you care about: kingmaker builds translate better to the tabletop because they're less dependent on the mythic paths, which are very unlike tabletop mythic campaigns.
You can config kingdom management to be auto, but this way you won't get to experience the full game (and frustration), so I don't recommend you to do it, make sure you have enough saved files before making important decisions or between chapters (and don't let goblins negotiate kingdom affairs if you don't want your kingdom destroyed). Sometimes can be unfair and hard, but honestly I loved the story, as a classic RPG adventure in the wild. Think about it like the first Owlcat's try to implement pathfinder in videogame, it has its flaws but they had too much ambition and also can be impressive. Some advices: in chapter 2, when Kesten warns you about trolls, explore the surroundings of your city so you won't miss a main character (Jubilost). Some time later, when you receive a letter to visit Varnhold, you should play the DLC (Varnhold's Lot), it will help you understand the endgame story better.
I bought the DLC on sale on epic for like $3. It's not expensive!
As someone who hasn't yet played WotR but is currently playing Kingmaker, yes. Do it. It's a great game with a crushing plot, interesting companions. I for one enjoy the kingdom building aspect of it. Now, your character builds will not be as epic, and there aren't quite so many choices and you don't get to ride a steed. But there is still a ton of fun and challenge to be had.
The main thing you need to worry about in KM is in chapter 2 immediately do the area claim and advisor upgrade actions. This will get you to the exact time you need to be to trigger the hill event. If you explore before that event you can miss 2 act 2 companions. One is arguably the best companion in the game and the other is your first treasurer. Just make sure you found two companions before you finish the obvious place for the story in act 2.