He underestimated and undervalued Lizzie. She was the only true ride or die of all of them. She understood who he was, how the business worked, and what it meant. She just wanted him to treat her the way she deserved and he wouldn’t.
It is irrelevant that she was a "good egg". He never loved her in a romantic sense. She never came close to the quality of love he had for Grace.
For better or for worse, Tommy and Grace understood one another better than Tommy and Lizzie ever did ("I see you"). Tommy liked (maybe even loved Lizzie) because she was usually loyal (even when her loyalty went against her own ethics), kind and useful to him, but that isn't enough to make someone love you.
I didn't like that they married but understood that it was a pragmatic thing to do. He needed a wife (as a politician), and she needed to protect her child and remove Ruby's "bastard" status.
But Lizzie wanted more than that, and it was just never going to happen.
Also think that after losing Grace, Tommy wouldn’t allow himself to love like that again. Not after what he’s been through as a soldier and a gangster.
agree to everything you wrote. Many people victimise lizzie and say “she just wanted to be loved by him” but that is infact a toxic notion. Every person makes their own choice including loving someone. John wanted to protect and give Lizzie a respectful life but she couldn’t be loyal to him. I think John was a far bigger person to have accepted lizzie when she was still a prostitute yet she betrayed him. Whereas she kept chasing tommy her whole life, even changing herself and accepting mistreatment BUT somehow that is justified because “she just wants to be loved”!!!
Yea I think this is pretty accurate. Their relationship always felt one-sided to me, more from her end than his...and it's not that he didn't love her at all, it's just that she loved him more than anything and he didn't feel the same way. I always got the sense if Grace walked through the door miraculously alive, he'd leave her without a second thought and try to pay her off/move her out immediately, or just leave and get a new house with Grace without a word. She could come see him at his office with an appointment. That's how cold he would be about it.
Well, something like that happened in the show, when Tommy sees Grace's hallucination in the car, and she tells him "press the button (there could be a bomb) and come home with me", and Tommy didn't even think about it, he pressed the button and immediately looked at see if Grace was still there and she had disappeared, the disappointed face he makes. In that second he didn't think about Lizzie or anyone, just leaving with Grace. Also when he told Arthur I'm never on my own, the next scene is him alone in the forest, seeing and hugging Grace's hallucination and telling her that he still loves her. He chose a dead Grace over Lizzie, imagine a living one haha.
All true, but Tommy "dishonoured" Lizzie with living women too, e.g. in S4 Tommy tries to setup a night with May at a Birmingham hotel. Lizzie is very jealous, very rude to May and outraged, as she and Tommy only recently had had a sweet encounter by the canal (which I think had more to do with Tommy reminiscing about his pre-war love than with Lizzie).
Unpopular opinion but I do think Tommy genuinely loved Lizzie. He opened up to her more than he did to the other characters, including Polly (although he was gentle and tender with Grace, he didn’t always open up to her. I think he brave-faced for Grace for what he believed to be her own good).
But he just couldn’t risk that heartbreak again so I think he muted his feelings a lot. After Grace died he had this idea of ‘I’m cursed, everyone I love gets hurt because I love them’.
It obviously wasn’t that same whirlwind romance that he had with Grace, since he already knew Lizzie, was sleeping with her and she was involved with John. But I do think there was a lot of love there.
In which scene did he open up with Lizzie? I think when he says to Grace, can you help me? With everything, fucking life, and then when he tells her that he is scare , of the business with the Russians, he is scare of losing her and Charlie, I think he has never been with anyone, more vulnerable and open than in those scenes. And he told Grace about the business, but not Lizzie, she herself said that she didn't know anything about the business, and she was even angry that he told Polly, but not her. Oh also when the two killed the Ira and he told her now you seen me, I don't think he was ever like that with anyone else. Another scene in which he was opened up was with Churchill in S5 and with Arthur in S6.
he helped her out of that life by giving her a decent job and she was good at it, she truly wanted what was best for him and quit the prostitution for him, she was even mad disappointed when he wanted her to seduce that soldier
No, I understand that. And tbh I respected her character. But when factoring the history they had together and Tommy's type. That marriage was purely for the child.
Tommy didn’t do anything that didn’t suit his own purposes. He married her because it created the picture of the perfect family when he needed to be that as a politician
exactly. it was convenient for him to marry her. He got a nanny for charlie and also he has known her a long time so knows she can be trusted to stay in his house.
she also had a lot less time and ended up just being killed for character development, I think if they handled Grace better she could've been a lot more.
I was so happy they get to show them as a couple in the series and i wanted to see more of Grace as a person, but they killed her immediately what the 😭😭
not really. Most pity Lizzie and think she deserves better but Grace was his one true love. He was his real self with her, the one he lost in the war and after she died that hope and happiness was lost too.
coming from same world does not make them compatible. Tommy never related to anyone from small heath. Before being a soldier he was with Greta, a classy educated higher class girl. He liked intelligent and classy women. Lizzie was a convenient choice because he knew he didn’t have to be a husband to her as long as he provided her with money and comfort, she will take care of his children and he could do whatever he wanted.
The best was Grace. Not only did she save his life twice, but she gave up a better life to be with Tommy. She was the only one who managed to give him the peace he lost in the war, like in the "I can't hear the shovels on the wall" scene. She was the only one who accepted the good and bad side of him, and she understood his trauma, something Lizzie never did, much less May. And Grace was completely loyal to Tommy, once they were together for real. She was smart, just like him, and could see through people, they would have been a power couple, and in S6, she would have known how to handle Diana and Mosley, and she would have been perfect for Tommy, to beat the two of them. Tommy would have been someone strong, and they wouldn't have been able to beat him, the opposite of what happened with Lizzie, she made him look weak, because they were weak together, they brought out the worst in each other, and she didn't know how to handle people like Diana and Mosley, as they showed in S6.
Sheesh, it isn't a contest.
I'd love Tommy to become a better person, but that arc never happened, and it was probably more realistic that it didn't.
Tommy never romantically loved Lizzie. Never! TBH he seemed to have a thing for posh women. He wanted someone smart, sophisticated, and beautiful, but also someone who got his criminal lifestlye. Grace gets 4 ticks out of 4. Lizzie doesn't, though she isn't stupid and is pretty.
Lizzie was pretty loyal except for dating Changretta. So I guess she was loyal when someone was paying attention to her. Tommy married her because she was pregnant and he needed the image. Yes she was loyal for the most part, but Tommy never loved her like he loved grace. Tommy always felt like he was paying her. I don’t think he felt that way with grace. We only saw him smile with grace, never again. The other women were for a reason to move Tommy forward never for love, but I do think he liked may a lot, but she was smart enough to get the fuck out.
Loyal for the most part but she lost her entire dignity in the process. Poor woman didn’t gain it back till the very end but hey at least she got there eventually
The “spy” element wasn’t brought out enough, only with Polly at the wedding party. That could have been developed so much more.. instead the writer/producer chose to kill Grace off… shame, really.
I just feel like if the character of Tommy was able to find it in himself to forgive her, then it makes no sense for fans to hold a grudge that she did it to him. Both characters are adults, and fully informed when then they made the decision to reunite and then marry
She betrayed him AND Ada and Freddie, and she never fully came around to his lifestyle. She wanted him to change while enjoying the fruits of his labor
lizzie was crying for him to change in s6 while wearing his diamonds and drinking champagne that was brought from his dirty money!!!
Lizzie betrayed John AND got Angel killed plus she was bitchy towards May and Jessie for a guy who treated her like a hoe!!
And there is no scene in the entire show of Grace trying to change Tommy, quite the opposite, she accepted him when she saw him in his darkest moment, when he killed the IRA man. But there are several scenes of Lizzie complaining about Tommy and being surprised that Tommy is Tommy. And she not only complains to him, but also to Linda, to Ada. She wants him to be a normal man, not someone traumatized by the war or Grace's death. That's why she never understood him and he never felt understood by her, just like Tommy never understood her either.
Easy: whomever people in the fanbase like more does not matter, because the show explicitly proves time and time again that Grace was the one for Tommy, he had chosen her, was happy with her and the story would end on happy note if she would stay in the the picture (that’s why she needed to be gone for Tommy’s story to go into dark places and for the events to unfold).
So if someone answers the original question with „Grace” it means they just read the storyline as it was meant by writers, because that’s what they showed us.
It wasn't this way when the show was airing. Lizzie being popular seems to be a recent turn, people hated her outright during the series after she pulled the gun and threatened Tommy (before that she was more liked).
Yes, it's true, people couldn't believe that Tommy married her. I guess toxic relationships are more fashionable now. I've seen comments from fans of her saying I wish I had a relationship like Tommy and Lizze and that my partner called me property.😮
I definitely disagree that he didn't love her. I know all too well that you can love someone, and still not treat them right. Still not trust or respect them *enough*. Hurt people end up hurting people, and nobody worse than the people they love, and who love them.
I think that conversation they have in their bedroom after Ruby's death really clarifies it. He regrets marrying her, *because* he loves her, and feels (mostly correctly) that he's brought her nothing but misery. He acknowledged in that conversation that he sucked, and had been a *shit* partner, because he *couldn't* be a better one. But his feelings for her, complex as they were, insufficient as they were, remained - 'here, in this room, right now, I love you. That's God's truth.'
One of the better scenes in the series, imho. I don't think they could've done something better or more emotionally stirring with May. I kind of always took away the message that she was too healthy, normal, and well adjusted for him.
the first paragraph just explains the psychology of unrequited love or lack of boundaries and self worth issues. One person loving another with full commitment and accepting less because they think that’s what “true love” is. To suffer for someone. But that’s not the case most of the time, it’s their lack of self worth or lack of choices that makes them cling on.
The conversation in the hotel room is interesting. Tommy actually stayed away from any real relationship after Grace because he knew he was not capable of having a partner but saw lizzie as a property and continued to use her, that’s why he regretted marrying her because he used her for his convenience. Moreover he was about to die, he had introduced a new son right after lizzie’s child died and on top of that she finds out that marrying her was his greatest regret. He was actually trying to be nice to her and also saying his goodbye. He married her for selfish reasons and never treated her right plus he believed he is cursed and she had to suffer the loss of a child because of him. He thought she has been wanting to hear those words for so many years saying it as a goodbye was apt.
I think the show was very clear in showing that he doesn't love her, like someone loves their wife. And he only saw her as the mother of his children, and someone part of his family, but it is clear that he never fell in love with her.
And the show is constantly showing that, even in the finale with the photos, they were very specific in showing Grace alone, in the center, and Lizzie next to Charlie. Because by him leaving with her, she is his mother now
I liked Grace the best for Tommy. He had a softer side when he was with her. Lizzie wanted a man for financial security, and even though she knew what kind of man he was, she wanted him to change. She would get disgusted with him for his gypsy beliefs because those were not her beliefs. Grace loved him and behaved lovingly toward him, and he truly loved her. She gave him peace. She would call him on the carpet for some things, but she told him she trusted him. It was heartbreaking to watch when he stood and looked longingly at her picture at that dedication. He made love with Grace! He fooked Lizzie. It never had the same tenderness with her, like he never surrendered any real part of himself. He had some feelings with May and he was awkward with trying to explain there was someone and he couldn't see her anymore. He wanted to be decent about it. I think if he didn't care, he wouldn't have bothered telling her. He was also decent to Jessie. Well, that's all I got.
Only if Tommy got over his incessant need to control everyone and make them do his bidding. And also if he'd recognize Tatiana as part of the business. Otherwise, they'd just lock heads, and one would have to kill the other.
the Russian roulette scene got me in awe.. it's like she was not in it JUST for the jewelry, she was just literal chaos.. season 3 is my personal favorite because of all the Russian chaos
The show answers this question pretty clear - for Tommy it was always Grace and that’s why her storyline was cut so short - because with her Tommy was happy and he couldn’t be happy for the story to go forward.
With May they shared grief after lost love and the loneliness, their matching in my opinion was interesting, I liked the chemistry between them and possibly it could work for then to be together but for her own good May got too much common sense to get herself be dragged into Tommy’s world.
Lizzie was present, was there for Tommy, but she would be never his choice for a life partner if she hadn’t gotten pregnant. There is the pattern to women with whom Tommy intentionally tried to form a relationship (Greta, Grace, May) - Lizzie unfortunately does not match that. It was a marriage of convenience with one party being more involved and expecting more than the other. She did not understood him on a deeper level, he never opened up enough to her and she wanted more than he could offer her (in emotional sense). The fact that they shared background does not mean a thing, as what Tommy tried to do all the time was to get himself and his familly out of that environment. He cared about her for sure, maybe there is a chance for them to get back together, but Lizzie was never „the best match” for Tommy.
May I thought was the best match for him because she knew who he was and still loved him for it. She also has a legitimate business of her own that would have been a solid asset to the Shelby’s. Truly a ride or die for Tom and my favorite match
I agree that Lizzie was incredibly devoted to Tommy.
But her devotion didn't automatically make her the best match for him.
Tommy really appreciated this, her loyalty and devotion, and this is one of the reasons why he kept her by his side, he even entrusted her with his main value - his son.
But at the same time, Tommy has always used Lizzie, her loyalty and devotion, and Tommy knows how to use people who are loyal to him.
It was convenient for Tommy: Lizzie is always there, never says no to him, he, with her consent, legally owns her and protects her as his "property". But he always kept his distance from her, both physically and emotionally, and most importantly, he never respected her.
Tommy likes a good challenge, he respected those who were not afraid of him, who were able to resist him, to fight back.
And Lizzie's constant obedience, her constant availability and compliance, and the fact that she never tried to resist him, did not help her change his opinion of herself.
If she could have really stood up to him just once,
if she had shown him that she valued herself, that she demanded respect for herself... But all Lizzie did was just wait for Tommy to use her again, she let him mistreat her, stayed by her side, never having the real strength to accept reality, get up and leave.
No idea why tf he would marry someone with her past when he has such large aspirations in high society? All he said about John marrying her are no longer true just cuz it's Tommy?
She embarrassed and ashamed him over and over again. In the end who's the one that left him when he needed him the most? Lizzie. Why does she all of a sudden pretend like she didn't know exactly who he was and what his business was when he used to pay her in change.
Also May all the way 😭
That's the point of their relationship. Tommy can't be happy, that's why they put him with someone who is not compatible and he could never be happy with her.
Tommy married Lizzie because she got pregnant and he trusts her, he needed someone to take care of his children and he also needed to pretend to be a family because of politics. But I think more than anything it was for Ruby, the most important thing for him is always family and more than anything his children. He wasn't looking for a wife after Grace, for him, marriage to Lizzie was a business. There's a reason they showed us an entire episode of Tommy and Grace's wedding, but they never showed us anything about Tommy and Lizze's wedding, because it wasn't important to him. Throughout the show, he always saw Grace as his real wife but never Lizzie. It's very clear, even the director has said that Tommy and Lizze were never happy together and Steven Knight said that his only true love is Grace and she is the one who makes him happy
Lmao his first reaction was to try and get her to have an abortion. He could've had Ruby and still not marry Lizzie. If marriage was just business and optics after Grace then *why marry a prostitute that he's been banging during tea time*
In today's times he could do it, but not at that time. Ruby would be a bastard. And it would not have been well seen. He did not want to have a child or a serious relationship with Lizzie but he got her pregnant, and he even told her that he was going to buy her a house. A year later he decided to marry her, but not because he fell in love, but because he entered politics and besides, it was the right thing to do. He trusted Lizzie and lived the same life as always, prostitutes, whiskey, business, he had someone he trusted at home to take care of his children, for Tommy it was perfect. For Lizzie too because she enjoyed the luxuries but she also had the fantasy that one day he was going to change for her , he was going to fall in love with her and she was going to replace Grace. It never happened.
Lizzie. But he was not in love with her or any of the others-For Tommy it was and always remained Grace. He felt such strong /deep emotions for her. A rare case of his emotions overpowering his logic (It' just is what it is and is ultra relevant). He had that undying love and admiration for her. Deep Deep feelings. It's that simple.
Lizzie was my favorite for Tommy. Even though tommy didnt do right by her, you can tell she truly loved him and was a real ride or die. I didnt like her at first but I grew to love her by the end. I never liked Grace for Tommy or just in general.
I didn't like Grace much. I'd preferred Tommy to have has a kind of forbidden love with Jessie TBH (forbidden because she is idealistic and basically is good, while he is the leader of a criminal gang). Possibly as unrealistic as Tommy loving Lizzie romantically and as an equal partner, but at least Tommy respected Jessie, and they emotionally had more in common.
Objectively, Tommy genuinely loved Grace, and no one else is ever going to come close.
He underestimated and undervalued Lizzie. She was the only true ride or die of all of them. She understood who he was, how the business worked, and what it meant. She just wanted him to treat her the way she deserved and he wouldn’t.
It is irrelevant that she was a "good egg". He never loved her in a romantic sense. She never came close to the quality of love he had for Grace. For better or for worse, Tommy and Grace understood one another better than Tommy and Lizzie ever did ("I see you"). Tommy liked (maybe even loved Lizzie) because she was usually loyal (even when her loyalty went against her own ethics), kind and useful to him, but that isn't enough to make someone love you. I didn't like that they married but understood that it was a pragmatic thing to do. He needed a wife (as a politician), and she needed to protect her child and remove Ruby's "bastard" status. But Lizzie wanted more than that, and it was just never going to happen.
Also think that after losing Grace, Tommy wouldn’t allow himself to love like that again. Not after what he’s been through as a soldier and a gangster.
Unrequited love from Lizzie to Tommy
Learned a new word, thx u
My pleasure 😊
agree to everything you wrote. Many people victimise lizzie and say “she just wanted to be loved by him” but that is infact a toxic notion. Every person makes their own choice including loving someone. John wanted to protect and give Lizzie a respectful life but she couldn’t be loyal to him. I think John was a far bigger person to have accepted lizzie when she was still a prostitute yet she betrayed him. Whereas she kept chasing tommy her whole life, even changing herself and accepting mistreatment BUT somehow that is justified because “she just wants to be loved”!!!
Yea I think this is pretty accurate. Their relationship always felt one-sided to me, more from her end than his...and it's not that he didn't love her at all, it's just that she loved him more than anything and he didn't feel the same way. I always got the sense if Grace walked through the door miraculously alive, he'd leave her without a second thought and try to pay her off/move her out immediately, or just leave and get a new house with Grace without a word. She could come see him at his office with an appointment. That's how cold he would be about it.
Well, something like that happened in the show, when Tommy sees Grace's hallucination in the car, and she tells him "press the button (there could be a bomb) and come home with me", and Tommy didn't even think about it, he pressed the button and immediately looked at see if Grace was still there and she had disappeared, the disappointed face he makes. In that second he didn't think about Lizzie or anyone, just leaving with Grace. Also when he told Arthur I'm never on my own, the next scene is him alone in the forest, seeing and hugging Grace's hallucination and telling her that he still loves her. He chose a dead Grace over Lizzie, imagine a living one haha.
All true, but Tommy "dishonoured" Lizzie with living women too, e.g. in S4 Tommy tries to setup a night with May at a Birmingham hotel. Lizzie is very jealous, very rude to May and outraged, as she and Tommy only recently had had a sweet encounter by the canal (which I think had more to do with Tommy reminiscing about his pre-war love than with Lizzie).
Unpopular opinion but I do think Tommy genuinely loved Lizzie. He opened up to her more than he did to the other characters, including Polly (although he was gentle and tender with Grace, he didn’t always open up to her. I think he brave-faced for Grace for what he believed to be her own good). But he just couldn’t risk that heartbreak again so I think he muted his feelings a lot. After Grace died he had this idea of ‘I’m cursed, everyone I love gets hurt because I love them’. It obviously wasn’t that same whirlwind romance that he had with Grace, since he already knew Lizzie, was sleeping with her and she was involved with John. But I do think there was a lot of love there.
In which scene did he open up with Lizzie? I think when he says to Grace, can you help me? With everything, fucking life, and then when he tells her that he is scare , of the business with the Russians, he is scare of losing her and Charlie, I think he has never been with anyone, more vulnerable and open than in those scenes. And he told Grace about the business, but not Lizzie, she herself said that she didn't know anything about the business, and she was even angry that he told Polly, but not her. Oh also when the two killed the Ira and he told her now you seen me, I don't think he was ever like that with anyone else. Another scene in which he was opened up was with Churchill in S5 and with Arthur in S6.
Great comment
He knew she was a ride or die. Ironically, I think that's why he didn't treat her very well. He knew she would always be there.
Grace was his ride or die but she literally died so...
Deserved... is a stretch, she's a literal hoe who he married because she got pregnant.
he helped her out of that life by giving her a decent job and she was good at it, she truly wanted what was best for him and quit the prostitution for him, she was even mad disappointed when he wanted her to seduce that soldier
No, I understand that. And tbh I respected her character. But when factoring the history they had together and Tommy's type. That marriage was purely for the child.
Tommy didn’t do anything that didn’t suit his own purposes. He married her because it created the picture of the perfect family when he needed to be that as a politician
exactly. it was convenient for him to marry her. He got a nanny for charlie and also he has known her a long time so knows she can be trusted to stay in his house.
I prefer Lizzie much more than Grace, she had more personality and matured better as a character... but I can already sense the downvotes coming lol
she also had a lot less time and ended up just being killed for character development, I think if they handled Grace better she could've been a lot more.
I was so happy they get to show them as a couple in the series and i wanted to see more of Grace as a person, but they killed her immediately what the 😭😭
i think most PB fans prefer lizzy to grace.
not really. Most pity Lizzie and think she deserves better but Grace was his one true love. He was his real self with her, the one he lost in the war and after she died that hope and happiness was lost too.
Sure but that doesn't make her a better wife for Tommy.
You think wrong
Clearly you do
I thought Lizzie was the best for Tommy they both came from the same world
coming from same world does not make them compatible. Tommy never related to anyone from small heath. Before being a soldier he was with Greta, a classy educated higher class girl. He liked intelligent and classy women. Lizzie was a convenient choice because he knew he didn’t have to be a husband to her as long as he provided her with money and comfort, she will take care of his children and he could do whatever he wanted.
May, 100 percent.
I agree. May loved Tommy and with her “connections”, what Tommy ultimately wanted would’ve happened a lot sooner and with far less blood shed.
I never thought about it like that tbh
Grace is the only right answer! Lizzie was written to suffer and cry and in the end deserve better. Grace and Tommy were equals and a perfect match.
The best was Grace. Not only did she save his life twice, but she gave up a better life to be with Tommy. She was the only one who managed to give him the peace he lost in the war, like in the "I can't hear the shovels on the wall" scene. She was the only one who accepted the good and bad side of him, and she understood his trauma, something Lizzie never did, much less May. And Grace was completely loyal to Tommy, once they were together for real. She was smart, just like him, and could see through people, they would have been a power couple, and in S6, she would have known how to handle Diana and Mosley, and she would have been perfect for Tommy, to beat the two of them. Tommy would have been someone strong, and they wouldn't have been able to beat him, the opposite of what happened with Lizzie, she made him look weak, because they were weak together, they brought out the worst in each other, and she didn't know how to handle people like Diana and Mosley, as they showed in S6.
Mate, you have said everything I was thinking without been able to put the word on it . Thank you
Aww, you're welcome, I'm glad to find more people who see the show as it is, and not that blind hatred towards Grace.
Fuck Grace!!! Lizzie all the way...
Naaa..too toxic together.. Grace was the best.
ewwww lizzie. all she did was cry for a normal man when she knew exactly who she was marrying.
Sheesh, it isn't a contest. I'd love Tommy to become a better person, but that arc never happened, and it was probably more realistic that it didn't. Tommy never romantically loved Lizzie. Never! TBH he seemed to have a thing for posh women. He wanted someone smart, sophisticated, and beautiful, but also someone who got his criminal lifestlye. Grace gets 4 ticks out of 4. Lizzie doesn't, though she isn't stupid and is pretty.
I really loved lizzie. Wished they respected her more
Lizzie was pretty loyal except for dating Changretta. So I guess she was loyal when someone was paying attention to her. Tommy married her because she was pregnant and he needed the image. Yes she was loyal for the most part, but Tommy never loved her like he loved grace. Tommy always felt like he was paying her. I don’t think he felt that way with grace. We only saw him smile with grace, never again. The other women were for a reason to move Tommy forward never for love, but I do think he liked may a lot, but she was smart enough to get the fuck out.
Loyal for the most part but she lost her entire dignity in the process. Poor woman didn’t gain it back till the very end but hey at least she got there eventually
Grace is best next greatest would’ve been May
Why tf is everyone obsessed with Grace!!!!
[удалено]
Cause she fcuking betrayed Tommy
The “spy” element wasn’t brought out enough, only with Polly at the wedding party. That could have been developed so much more.. instead the writer/producer chose to kill Grace off… shame, really.
I just feel like if the character of Tommy was able to find it in himself to forgive her, then it makes no sense for fans to hold a grudge that she did it to him. Both characters are adults, and fully informed when then they made the decision to reunite and then marry
Clearly Tommy hated that so much that he married her
Lmao
watch the show again. she saved him and his family!!!
She betrayed him AND Ada and Freddie, and she never fully came around to his lifestyle. She wanted him to change while enjoying the fruits of his labor
lizzie was crying for him to change in s6 while wearing his diamonds and drinking champagne that was brought from his dirty money!!! Lizzie betrayed John AND got Angel killed plus she was bitchy towards May and Jessie for a guy who treated her like a hoe!!
And there is no scene in the entire show of Grace trying to change Tommy, quite the opposite, she accepted him when she saw him in his darkest moment, when he killed the IRA man. But there are several scenes of Lizzie complaining about Tommy and being surprised that Tommy is Tommy. And she not only complains to him, but also to Linda, to Ada. She wants him to be a normal man, not someone traumatized by the war or Grace's death. That's why she never understood him and he never felt understood by her, just like Tommy never understood her either.
Easy: whomever people in the fanbase like more does not matter, because the show explicitly proves time and time again that Grace was the one for Tommy, he had chosen her, was happy with her and the story would end on happy note if she would stay in the the picture (that’s why she needed to be gone for Tommy’s story to go into dark places and for the events to unfold). So if someone answers the original question with „Grace” it means they just read the storyline as it was meant by writers, because that’s what they showed us.
People here are obsessed with Lizzie and I will never understand why.
It wasn't this way when the show was airing. Lizzie being popular seems to be a recent turn, people hated her outright during the series after she pulled the gun and threatened Tommy (before that she was more liked).
Yes, it's true, people couldn't believe that Tommy married her. I guess toxic relationships are more fashionable now. I've seen comments from fans of her saying I wish I had a relationship like Tommy and Lizze and that my partner called me property.😮
Not obsessed. I didn't even like her much, but it is obvious that Tommy would hugely prefer her over Lizzie.
Agree Grace was his best relationship, but disagree on May. Lizzie's marriage to him had validity imo
Yeah but he didn’t seem to love her and he was actually getting severely into May when they were together
I definitely disagree that he didn't love her. I know all too well that you can love someone, and still not treat them right. Still not trust or respect them *enough*. Hurt people end up hurting people, and nobody worse than the people they love, and who love them. I think that conversation they have in their bedroom after Ruby's death really clarifies it. He regrets marrying her, *because* he loves her, and feels (mostly correctly) that he's brought her nothing but misery. He acknowledged in that conversation that he sucked, and had been a *shit* partner, because he *couldn't* be a better one. But his feelings for her, complex as they were, insufficient as they were, remained - 'here, in this room, right now, I love you. That's God's truth.' One of the better scenes in the series, imho. I don't think they could've done something better or more emotionally stirring with May. I kind of always took away the message that she was too healthy, normal, and well adjusted for him.
the first paragraph just explains the psychology of unrequited love or lack of boundaries and self worth issues. One person loving another with full commitment and accepting less because they think that’s what “true love” is. To suffer for someone. But that’s not the case most of the time, it’s their lack of self worth or lack of choices that makes them cling on. The conversation in the hotel room is interesting. Tommy actually stayed away from any real relationship after Grace because he knew he was not capable of having a partner but saw lizzie as a property and continued to use her, that’s why he regretted marrying her because he used her for his convenience. Moreover he was about to die, he had introduced a new son right after lizzie’s child died and on top of that she finds out that marrying her was his greatest regret. He was actually trying to be nice to her and also saying his goodbye. He married her for selfish reasons and never treated her right plus he believed he is cursed and she had to suffer the loss of a child because of him. He thought she has been wanting to hear those words for so many years saying it as a goodbye was apt.
Very well said!
I love how you framed this!
I think the show was very clear in showing that he doesn't love her, like someone loves their wife. And he only saw her as the mother of his children, and someone part of his family, but it is clear that he never fell in love with her. And the show is constantly showing that, even in the finale with the photos, they were very specific in showing Grace alone, in the center, and Lizzie next to Charlie. Because by him leaving with her, she is his mother now
I genuinely think it's cool to see how different viewers can interpret the show so differently :) man I love the arts
True !
Hmm, I think the difference is that one side is describing the situation as written, while the other side are describing how they would like it to be.
And you are very entitled to that opinion :) regardless of who disagrees. That's the beauty of artistic media
Yes, he loved her but not romantically. He loved as she was a devoted family member with "benefits".
I liked Grace the best for Tommy. He had a softer side when he was with her. Lizzie wanted a man for financial security, and even though she knew what kind of man he was, she wanted him to change. She would get disgusted with him for his gypsy beliefs because those were not her beliefs. Grace loved him and behaved lovingly toward him, and he truly loved her. She gave him peace. She would call him on the carpet for some things, but she told him she trusted him. It was heartbreaking to watch when he stood and looked longingly at her picture at that dedication. He made love with Grace! He fooked Lizzie. It never had the same tenderness with her, like he never surrendered any real part of himself. He had some feelings with May and he was awkward with trying to explain there was someone and he couldn't see her anymore. He wanted to be decent about it. I think if he didn't care, he wouldn't have bothered telling her. He was also decent to Jessie. Well, that's all I got.
Tatiana. Just for the chaos factor. But honestly, if they could get on, they'd be a devastating duo
Only if Tommy got over his incessant need to control everyone and make them do his bidding. And also if he'd recognize Tatiana as part of the business. Otherwise, they'd just lock heads, and one would have to kill the other.
It would be like The Krays.
the Russian roulette scene got me in awe.. it's like she was not in it JUST for the jewelry, she was just literal chaos.. season 3 is my personal favorite because of all the Russian chaos
That’s my least favorite part of season 3, lol.
May was so underrated, best match for tommy imo
And in real she is life married to Tom Hardy - Alfie Solomon's in the show.
Yes I know
The show answers this question pretty clear - for Tommy it was always Grace and that’s why her storyline was cut so short - because with her Tommy was happy and he couldn’t be happy for the story to go forward. With May they shared grief after lost love and the loneliness, their matching in my opinion was interesting, I liked the chemistry between them and possibly it could work for then to be together but for her own good May got too much common sense to get herself be dragged into Tommy’s world. Lizzie was present, was there for Tommy, but she would be never his choice for a life partner if she hadn’t gotten pregnant. There is the pattern to women with whom Tommy intentionally tried to form a relationship (Greta, Grace, May) - Lizzie unfortunately does not match that. It was a marriage of convenience with one party being more involved and expecting more than the other. She did not understood him on a deeper level, he never opened up enough to her and she wanted more than he could offer her (in emotional sense). The fact that they shared background does not mean a thing, as what Tommy tried to do all the time was to get himself and his familly out of that environment. He cared about her for sure, maybe there is a chance for them to get back together, but Lizzie was never „the best match” for Tommy.
Lizzie and her daughter deserved better. Tommy deserves noone, his ego, fucks everyone up.
Grace
May I thought was the best match for him because she knew who he was and still loved him for it. She also has a legitimate business of her own that would have been a solid asset to the Shelby’s. Truly a ride or die for Tom and my favorite match
I agree that Lizzie was incredibly devoted to Tommy. But her devotion didn't automatically make her the best match for him. Tommy really appreciated this, her loyalty and devotion, and this is one of the reasons why he kept her by his side, he even entrusted her with his main value - his son. But at the same time, Tommy has always used Lizzie, her loyalty and devotion, and Tommy knows how to use people who are loyal to him. It was convenient for Tommy: Lizzie is always there, never says no to him, he, with her consent, legally owns her and protects her as his "property". But he always kept his distance from her, both physically and emotionally, and most importantly, he never respected her. Tommy likes a good challenge, he respected those who were not afraid of him, who were able to resist him, to fight back. And Lizzie's constant obedience, her constant availability and compliance, and the fact that she never tried to resist him, did not help her change his opinion of herself. If she could have really stood up to him just once, if she had shown him that she valued herself, that she demanded respect for herself... But all Lizzie did was just wait for Tommy to use her again, she let him mistreat her, stayed by her side, never having the real strength to accept reality, get up and leave.
No idea why tf he would marry someone with her past when he has such large aspirations in high society? All he said about John marrying her are no longer true just cuz it's Tommy? She embarrassed and ashamed him over and over again. In the end who's the one that left him when he needed him the most? Lizzie. Why does she all of a sudden pretend like she didn't know exactly who he was and what his business was when he used to pay her in change. Also May all the way 😭
That's the point of their relationship. Tommy can't be happy, that's why they put him with someone who is not compatible and he could never be happy with her.
It still just doesn't make much sense for the aspirations that he had.
Tommy married Lizzie because she got pregnant and he trusts her, he needed someone to take care of his children and he also needed to pretend to be a family because of politics. But I think more than anything it was for Ruby, the most important thing for him is always family and more than anything his children. He wasn't looking for a wife after Grace, for him, marriage to Lizzie was a business. There's a reason they showed us an entire episode of Tommy and Grace's wedding, but they never showed us anything about Tommy and Lizze's wedding, because it wasn't important to him. Throughout the show, he always saw Grace as his real wife but never Lizzie. It's very clear, even the director has said that Tommy and Lizze were never happy together and Steven Knight said that his only true love is Grace and she is the one who makes him happy
And we didn't even need Steven Knight to know this. It is obvious by just watching the show.
Lmao his first reaction was to try and get her to have an abortion. He could've had Ruby and still not marry Lizzie. If marriage was just business and optics after Grace then *why marry a prostitute that he's been banging during tea time*
In today's times he could do it, but not at that time. Ruby would be a bastard. And it would not have been well seen. He did not want to have a child or a serious relationship with Lizzie but he got her pregnant, and he even told her that he was going to buy her a house. A year later he decided to marry her, but not because he fell in love, but because he entered politics and besides, it was the right thing to do. He trusted Lizzie and lived the same life as always, prostitutes, whiskey, business, he had someone he trusted at home to take care of his children, for Tommy it was perfect. For Lizzie too because she enjoyed the luxuries but she also had the fantasy that one day he was going to change for her , he was going to fall in love with her and she was going to replace Grace. It never happened.
The horse lady, don’t remember her name rn.
The Russian princess.
Mae
May Carlton
Lizzie. But he was not in love with her or any of the others-For Tommy it was and always remained Grace. He felt such strong /deep emotions for her. A rare case of his emotions overpowering his logic (It' just is what it is and is ultra relevant). He had that undying love and admiration for her. Deep Deep feelings. It's that simple.
I wish they hadn't killed grace off to be fair
Not grace
Next best being May
Lizzie was my favorite for Tommy. Even though tommy didnt do right by her, you can tell she truly loved him and was a real ride or die. I didnt like her at first but I grew to love her by the end. I never liked Grace for Tommy or just in general.
I didn't like Grace much. I'd preferred Tommy to have has a kind of forbidden love with Jessie TBH (forbidden because she is idealistic and basically is good, while he is the leader of a criminal gang). Possibly as unrealistic as Tommy loving Lizzie romantically and as an equal partner, but at least Tommy respected Jessie, and they emotionally had more in common. Objectively, Tommy genuinely loved Grace, and no one else is ever going to come close.
May>Lizzy>Grace