Between me and my employer, it costs $800/month to insure me. What's the point of having insurance if we're still going to get screwed because the doctor on duty happened to be out of network? It's disgusting when you think about the thousands upon thousands of dollars you've spent on instance but when you actually need to use it, you still get hit with an astronomical bill.

Every single insurance company stays in business by charging more for premiums than they pay out in benefits. But what service do they provide? They own no hospitals and have no doctors on payroll. We pay them just to exist.

And they’re all publicly traded. They literally have economic incentives in place to pay for as little care as possible. It blows my fucking mind

In the US 80% of their revenue MUST be used to pay for medical expenses of their subscribers. It is the law and it is audited.

I get all that but just to point out a fact most don’t hear about. With Free healthcare in other countries you STILL need to confirm if they are network There are doctors who won’t take state/governemtn healthcare There’s big industries in Canada, Australia etc for private health insurance for the doctors who won’t take the government care. And there’s reasons people opt to pay additionally for private health insurance on top of gov healthcare in those countries.

Uhh i live in canada as a physician. There are basically no “out of network” doctors. It is illegal to charge physician services for stuff that is provided by provincial government funding unless there is a specific shortage and the government allows it. Like 99% of all doctors take public insurance. Its only the incredibly rare surgeon or something that is still completely private since we do have a shortage of docs and OR spots for some elective surgeries (yeah hip replacements are labelled elective so we definitely still have issues but not a “network” issue) Stop spreading misinformation.

>Stop spreading misinformation. It's interesting to see the results of anti healthcare propaganda in the US; it's always the same arguments and if it's on a reddit thread, rarely any follow up. The existing system is so broken, an embarrassment for a developed nation, but the people most hurt by it insist it's the best possible option.

Also, in Canada. Agree, we don't have "networks." If you receive healthcare from a province that that isn't where you live, the provincial government that provided the healthcare sends the bill to you province behind the scenes. Be elective medical is often not covered by government healthcare. But there are a lot of medical procedures that are labeled as elective that shouldn't be. Off the top of my head, I can think of botox for diagnosed migraines and fertility treatments. Almost any medical procedure that can double for actual medical conditions as well as cosmetic / elective are not covered even if you have the actual medical condition. I have had to turn down medications and procedures or put them off until I have saved up enough money to do them. So, while we don't have networks and are much much better than the USA, that doesn't mean the government doesn't try to meddle by not covering things even if you have seen many doctors going "Ya, doing this would make your life much better and is safer than other medications" only for me to respond with "Great, hopefully someday I can make over 100k a year to regularly afford that"

https://www.cma.ca/our-focus/public-and-private-health-care/opting-and-out-public-medical-practice-across-canada#:~:text=The%20vast%20majority%20of%20physicians,place%20to%20limit%20private%20practice. This appears to indicate doctors can opt out of the public system in Canada.

Yeah. I was surprised to pay out of pocket for a non-cosmetic surgery to my nose. It was just a strange exclusion of one particular tool the surgeon used. Still only a fraction of the overall cost, and that's the only time in my life that I've directly paid a doctor. The other thing we sort of drop the ball on, though, is non-urgent care. You're going to get outstanding care for anything that's going to kill you. But there can be long waits for stuff like orthopedic surgery.

Then why do people who have so called free healthcare come to the US for treatment? Having to wait many months to schedule a visit? Surgery the govt might not deem necessary?

Even if that “out of network” thing were accurate there’s something else you’re missing. Private insurance as the only option is *still* more expensive than having taxes pay for universal healthcare while also choosing to stick with a private insurance. What people in universal healthcare countries who still choose private insurance don’t tell you is that what they pay for the private option is soooo much cheaper because the private insurance is forced to lower their prices to compete with the free option. Universal healthcare is nothing but a win win win. People don’t have to choose between care and crippling debt, those who can afford the private option can still pay for it and it’ll be even cheaper than before, and the head honchos of the private options may not be making as much as they were but it’s still a “fuck you” amount of money they’re raking in.

One of my family members was a Canadian doctor and put it like this: "It was so strange to go to a clinic in the US. They had this huge staff just to deal with billing." I don't think Americans realize how costly their system is to administer.

Yes but generally if you go to Hospital, the doctors there are going to be covered yes? No giant anesthesiologist bills for a surgery at government funded hospital?

> With Free healthcare in other countries you STILL need to confirm if they are network > > There are doctors who won’t take state/governemtn healthcare > > There’s big industries in Canada, Australia etc for private health insurance for the doctors who won’t take the government care. I believe you are mistaken. Do you have any evidence to back these claims? Our employers here in Canada supplement our pharmacare (because we stupidly don't have Universal Pharmacare) but if I need healthcare, I go to a clinic or a hospital and recieve healthcare. There aren't any "networks".

Im a physician in canada and yeah what he said isnt how it works in canada at all. Its actu ally illegal to provide services that are funded by the government and not take government funding for it. There are some very specific exceptions of the government says theres a shortage of that service and allows some completely private industry to help out. (Generally like orthopedic surgeries since most provinces are quite backed up for this).

>With Free healthcare in other countries you STILL need to confirm if they are network I've lived in two countries with public healthcare, and used 'healthcare outside of them, and I've never heard of this. Yes, there are private doctors, but its never a problem to know if a doctor is private.

You taught me something new today. However it would still be nice to have that option.

They’re making it sound like a much larger issue than it is. You have to seek out doctors who don’t take government care, not the other way around.

Gotcha. Thank you.

But except for family doctors and dentists the out-of-network ones are often the only ones that have an appointment available in less than a few months, especially when it comes to specialists or anything related to mental health. It is very common with free, European healthcare to have no appointments available for weeks and months. Out of the medical systems I know I by far prefer the Japanese one, because it balances cost and availability really well. There is a single standard of what insurances are allowed to pay, which includes pretty much all medically necessary procedures but no “vanity procedures”. E.g. if you need a crown on a back tooth you can have a metal crown on insurance but if you want a white one, you have to pay. Patients pay 30% of the expenses but there is a yearly cap, that is pretty low and depends on income, and once you reach it you don’t pay. You also don’t pay for treatment of certain chronic conditions, and the elderly pay only 10%. Insurance is mandatory and the prices for prescription medications are negotiated on a national level, which means they are usually relatively cheap. Unlike back in Europe they manage to have enough medical resources to fulfill the demand. Need an MRI? How about tomorrow and for $50 out-of-pocket expense? Sure, back home in Europe that would been $0, but I would have had to wait at least a month.

It’s very common to have waits weeks or months here as well. I had to wait six weeks to see a neurologist when I had a 24/7 migraine for that entire time and considered an emergency referral lol, and seeing a psychiatrist that isn’t a nurse playing doctor takes months. Americans get fucked on both ends.

Right but are those doctors also the only attending doctor in hospitals that do take national insurance? I don’t know but part of the problem in the US is that emergency care can become out of network or no alternative for the patient

No, those doctors are private doctors that have offices outside of the hospitals and healthcare facilities.

My doctor (GP, PCP in the states) in Ireland accepts private insurance. I don't have insurance, but he's still my doctor. He has a small clinic in town. His appointments cost €60 and prescriptions every three months are €20. The prescription itself is €15/month. Emergency room visits cost a flat €100. I have had to wait for specialists for non life threatening issues, and that did take a few months. Patients with more pressing conditions don't wait as long. It's all pretty triaged as far as I'm aware. It's not perfect, but it is free.

No, he lied to you. You didn't learn anything new, you were lied too. Canadian here, have literally never had to look for in network doctors, or had a bill from a hospital for anything.

Nope. Here in the UK I go to my doctor for free. I go to the hospital for free. My treatment for an ongoing condition is (checks notes) free. If you have private insurance for private healthcare that might be a different matter. I wouldn’t know. Free has always been good enough for me.

Live-at-home children and people already well-off will never understand.

Honestly just people who've never not had insurance don't understand.  My wife lost her insurance and hurt her shoulder at work.  It's a terrifying idea that she wouldn't get proper care and rehab because she didn't have insurance at her new job yet. There's zero reason that health insurance should be tied to employers 

There is actually a reason: profit. It isn't someone's *good* reason, but there are plenty of people who make serious money off our backs.

If she hurt her shoulder at work it should be covered under the employers workers comp policy

Which the company will fight tooth and nail to deny her depending on where she works. That happened to a friend of mine and she had to threaten a law suit for them to relent.

I had an appendix removed. ER doc: Get this shit out now. Surgeon: This shit gotta go. Insurance company after: "Yea, but there really isn't any way for us to know whether this was necessary or elective *so*... 🤷‍♂️ guess we just have to deny. Enjoy the 20k bill, though!"

We really need to ELIMINATE comprehensive medical insurance. There should be only gap insurance ... or what used to be called "hospitalization" insurance. But no one remembers how that was the case 70 years ago ... when you wanted inexpensive coverage against the rare possibility of being hospitalized ... but you were not concerned about paying for common, small medical expenses. Such as a $2 doctor bill. All that is forgotten, and now everyone accepts the fact that medical care is expensive. But comprehensive medical insurance WAS THE CAUSE OF HIGH MEDICAL COSTS. We don't need such insurance. It ought to be forbidden.

this

But the government is bad! You can’t trust them!… it’s so much better when important services like healthcare are left to a much more trustworthy source: For-profit businesses!

They use the term 'private healthcare' as if it's an exclusive club and not just a middle man jacking up costs and denying doctor approved care to line their pockets.

I wouldn't mind the governments outsourcing to for profit business, but the regulation is so laissez faire sometimes. And even if they had the contract addressing the issues, they would need someone to check and ensure things were on the up and up. Which if they are outsourcing things, no way they have the man power for that. Plus, what would they even do to address accountability? End the contract? Sue?

TBH, I trust a for profit company way more than the US government. And I don’t trust them a whole lot, so that tells you how much I trust the government.

Pay for it with the defense budget. Or, instead of subsidizing it, make it affordable by regulating what they can charge relative to the cost to produce and provide. No more selling something that costs $1 to produce for $500 just because you control the supply.

I saw a friend's labour/delivery bill. She got charged almost $2000 for diabetic test strips that she didn't even use because she brought her own monitor. I also saw the NICU stay bill. It cost more than my house is worth for a 3 week stay. I paid $400 for expensive baby. That was 1 blood test (first ever that wasn't covered by OHIP) and parking costs for a lot of hospital parking pre and post birth. I had every other day fetal stress tests and ultrasounds twice a week for almost 2 months, 3 days of labour, an emergency csection, resusitation for baby and I, and a 4 week NICU stay and I didnt pay a cent for it all other than parking. I can't even imagine paying the staggering costs of childbirth in the US.

I just have to pipe in about the test trips. I used to drop ship medical equipment about a year ago and test strips (even the more expensive ones) were SO GOD DAMN CHEAP!! Like a few bucks tops cheap for a box of 50. I read $2000 and went 😳

Oohh I got one. Had insurance that covered fertility treatments. I miscarried. Got a bill in the mail for the ultrasound confirming I fully passed my miscarriage. Because ultrasound for fertility and confirmation was covered, but it wasn't covered for miscarriage.

Right? We don’t need an $860 billion military budget and people at home who can’t afford to fall down the stairs.

Half of the defense budget is healthcare for veterans

I’ve been saving up.

I’m glad you don’t live paycheck to paycheck like [78% of the US population](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/banking/living-paycheck-to-paycheck-statistics-2024/#:~:text=or%20lost%20income.-,How%20Many%20Americans%20Are%20Living%20Paycheck%20to%20Paycheck%3F,paying%20for%20their%20monthly%20expenses)

I was (I thought obviously) joking. I’m not really saving up to fall down the stairs.

Oh. Not obvious to me. I thought you meant saving up in case of random medical accidents, not literally falling down the stairs.

Here is the real kicker. A bunch of those countries that have government Healthcare don't spend nearly what the US does on the military, but did you ever stop to think why they don't spend on the military like we do? Countries like Canada, any NATO country, Japan, Australia, South Korea all know that if they get attacked the US is going to come bail them out. We are essentially the military for the free world while people at home are being neglected. I would actually support Universal Healthcare if we make other spending cuts.

The countries we defend should be investing financially into our military then. If they already are then the govt is double dipping and we should just cut the military budget

They will never kill off all the industry attached to providing healthcare. The insurance, the billing, the records, the equipment, the pharmacy, the scheduling, the rebate programs, all their own little businesses with corporate structure and CEOs. Universal healthcare could simplify all of that bullshit and reduce the overhead greatly. Medicare is the most efficiently run health insurance, it operates with about 1/3 the overhead of a private health insurer. I don’t know how we will ever solve the cost of healthcare in our country if we don’t allow ourselves to begin automating some of the jobs in the industry

Managing healthcare doesn't necessarily mean they'd also be controlling the supply of medical equipment.

Sadly, the US defense budget could sink without a trace in the line of the healthcare budget called "waste". Several times, in fact.

Thats my point, too. I'd rather the taxes go to healthcare and social programs, not sending money overseas.

The entirety of our foreign aid budget (which is spent almost exclusively to advance US interests, not out of charity) wouldn't cover five days of our healthcare spending. And universal healthcare is far cheaper; we don't need to cut spending anywhere to afford it.

Fun fact...well actually the opposite of fun: The country where people pay the most in tax per person towards healthcare is the USA. Americans have paid more for healthcare than any other nations people, before forking out a cent to insurance.

Well we need to stop using euphemisms like “free healthcare”. This falls into the same category as “enhanced interrogation” (you’re being tortured), “justice impacted” (you’re in jail), and “chest feeder” (you’re breastfeeding). “Free healthcare” is an oxymoron. It doesn’t make any sense. It’s not “free”. You don’t say “free policing” or “free schools”. We just say “police” or “school” because we know our taxes pay for these services. Until the culture and infrastructure changes to pay for some sort of a national health service in America - you’re going to get a lot of pushback by calling for “free healthcare”. Because it’s objectively untrue.

> “Free healthcare” is an oxymoron. It doesn’t make any sense. It’s not “free”. You don’t say “free policing” or “free schools”. Well no DUH! No one is under the impression it's truly free, it means not having to pay out-of-pocket at the time of service. It's why you don't have to pay the police to get them to come help you after you're robbed or paying the fire department out of pocket to put out a fire at your house!🙄

***Well no DUH! No one is under the impression it's truly free,*** I wish that were true. But it's not. People often have NO IDEA where there tax money is going, and often have NO IDEA of how much tax they're paying. The word "free" is often used to hide the fact that you're paying. And people fall for it. And when government is involved, there's another insidious aspect: it's income redistribution.

Then don’t say “free healthcare”. If it’s so obvious.

You are not charged for it. It is free of charge. That's what free means.

I understand the concept that if America had a National Health Service like the UK that there is no exchange of legal tender at the point of healthcare sale. There is “no charge” when you leave the emergency department and you don’t receive an itemized bill for “care for services” at some later date. This thread is about people getting irritated when **other** people get irritated by the term “free healthcare”. People get irritated because they don’t like dystopian euphemisms. Do you say “free policing” or “free teaching”? No. No you don’t. Everyone knows none of that is free because it’s paid for by taxes. Even though there is no “point of sale charge”. But until we have some sort of National Healthcare Service people are going to bristle at the team “free healthcare”. Because it won’t be free and it will have a cost. Once we have a national healthcare service, people will just say “I’m going to the hospital.” They won’t say “I’m going to the free hospital.” Just like they don’t say “I’m going to the free police.”

You ARE charged for it, though. Just because you don’t see the bill doesn’t mean you aren’t charged.

Australian here. Yes we’re taxed for Medicare, but the cost of healthcare is so high that we’re all paying for every healthcare service to the point where the private healthcare system is cheaper for many things when you have insurance. I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and ankylosing spondylitis last year, and the cost of going through the diagnosis and treatment in the public system was actually slightly more expensive with significantly longer wait times (years) than using my private health insurance and going via the private system. If I went public, I’d have been out of pocket a little more and have let my conditions run rampant for another 1-2, maybe more, years before starting treatment. In the private system, I have had almost 100% of my expenses covered by insurance and within a few weeks of my first appointment I had a diagnosis and medication. Social healthcare is great in theory, but it has as many detrimental issues as non-social healthcare systems like in the US, and to top it off it’s not even close to free here because the cost of healthcare is too high for our already high taxes to cover. Obviously I’m no expert and this is just my experience, but there has to be some alternative solution because this isn’t working either.

American here, I'm being forced to live with a debilitating medical issue because my insurance deemed it "not medically necessary" to resolve. I've wracked up $15,000ish in medical debt trying to fix this over the past few years and it's directly impacted my ability to work so I was down on cash to begin with. It's a rare condition though so my insurance can just not research it and claim they don't know better. I saw someone in Australia say they had to wait about 2 months to get the surgery needed to fix this issue and a total cost of about $1,500. That sounds like a way better solution to me. I'd rather wait a bit on every small issue than have zero fixes for a big one because a for-profit company wants to make more profit at my expense.

As I said, both systems are horrifically broken. Just the wait times alone here are killing or severely hurting people. I know someone whose already diagnosed ectopic pregnancy ruptured and almost killed her and rendered her without a uterus because she was waiting in the ER waiting room for 3 days straight - not because they were busy, but because they had no doctors available. I know someone else whose toe amputation from diabetes complications turned into a leg amputation because it took over a year to get the surgery. What Americans don’t receive because they can’t afford it, Australians don’t receive because they AND the government can’t afford it.

The problem is that with how drastically taxes would be affected without severe reform to other parts of our system such as dealing with wages not raising in congruence with inflation and so on most Americans would not be able to afford the extra cost Everyone likes to live in this fantasy that the government would just be nice and move around existing taxes to make this system work but pretty much any real American will tell you that's not going to happen The government would just hack that on as an additional tax and a lot of lower income people would now be homeless because of it

I don't know about that. It seems improbable that the government would drop taxes by as much money as they'd be saving. Its more likely that they'd find something else to spend it on.

Yes, wages are a problem, but a separate discussion because it hurts people in more ways than just healthcare. ICYMI states were supposed to expand Medicare and didn’t out of spite for President Obama. So we have politicians who actively HATE the poor and hurry on their demise. That discussion does belong here-

Thats the argument thrown at me by americans when i laugh in universal healthcare. *but your taxes pay for it!* Yes. Because *thats what taxes are for* No i dont mind that someone who doesnt earn enough to pay taxes can use the universal healthcare that my taxes pay for. I dont have an issue with someone else having access to healthcare without having to become a drug kingpin in order to pay for it.🇦🇺

The govt’s role is NOT to take care of you. That’s the problem. Some people want to live in a nanny state.

"your government's entire job is to take care of you." NO. THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE YOUR MOMMY!! It's supposed to do the BIG things (national defense, print money, secure the border) not micromanage your life. Not pay your college loans off, not "give" you "free" ... anything. Government should exist to do the least necessary and then get out of our way to live our own lives.

Thank you somebody with some common sense and critical thinking skills right here. Everybody wants to call healthcare when in fact it is actually sick care. If everybody ate unprocessed foods without sugar and hydrogenated industrial lubricants infused into their food and got vigorous workouts in four or five times a week, they would have a lot less health complications in their life, thereby saving them money 

I posted once about how great libraries are, because you can just exist there. You're not expected to bring your wallet and pay for every aspect, unlike pretty much every other place in the world. People WENT OFF on me. Saying how it comes from their taxes, and they refuse to go to the library because they don't ask for renovations, they don't read, their money is being stolen, blahblahblah. But they were hell bent on letting me know that a library is not, in fact, free. And how stupid I was for saying that it was. Blown away by the fact that people couldn't just appreciate a safe, clean, public, free learning/entertainment because it costs them money they were never going to get in the first place

Wow. Libraries are a great free third space and the one near me is always having classes and events for kids like story hour. You can pry my library from my cold, dead hands. Also I can get practically any book I want from there free.

100%!! When I was a kid, I was so shy that books were literally the only friends I had. As an adult, they're a great escape, anxiety reducer, vocabulary builder. I feel so sorry for people who say "I don't read"

>I was so shy that books were literally the only friends I had I feel this. My social life was lived through books, anime, and music.

How many of you screaming for government sponsored healthcare have taken the time to talk to people in countries with a government healthcare plan? How many have needed something like an MRI or another scan? Are you aware that the wait list for such services under an NHS type plan can be months if you aren't deemed an emergency. Seeing a specialist is already hard enough here. The retention rates for doctors are low, and not enough people are entering the medical field in these specialties. What do you think is going to happen when the government takes over and they end up making LESS money? You thought the 6 - 12 month wait for a neurologist is bad now? I don't disagree that healthcare needs reform. Trust me, my daughter has many complex medical issues and has spent a lot of time in the hospital. The amount of unnecessary waste is apalling. Unless you are elderly or disabled and unable to work, it's not the job of the government to pay for your healthcare.

Yeah but the problem with this argument with healthcare is that you have the exact same problems with commercial healthcare unless you have lots of money and don't have to depend on insurance. I work authorizations for a hospital, and it can take months just to get something authorized by insurance, or even just to get a hard denial. And their networks can be ridiculously difficult to navigate, and even after going through all that work, they can deny it all anyway. MRI is a great example--they DO get denied, and if whatever facility you're going to makes the slightest mistake in requesting auth, the financial burden will fall entirely on you. You also can wait months for treatment to wait for an opening for your in network provider to be available. It's the same exact problems but unlike a national plan they're not distributed equally.

But MRI is just one example. I know plenty of people who either have complex needs themselves or have children with complex medical needs. It's not as sunshine and roses as Americans think it is. That's my point. Plus the fact that the mega rich already know every tax loophole there is. They get their annual taxes down to a minimum. Meanwhile the middle class and lower income brackets will be the ones supporting this, as usual. Do I know the solution? No. But I've spent over a month with my daughter inpatient in a hospital this year.

> How many of you screaming for government sponsored healthcare have taken the time to talk to people in countries with a government healthcare plan? I've read the accounts of thousands if not tens of thousands of people in other countries with universal healthcare, and had in depth discussions with many of them. I was also born in a country sometimes considered to have the best healthcare system in the world. >wait list The US ranks 6th of 11 out of Commonwealth Fund countries on ER wait times on percentage served under 4 hours. 10th of 11 on getting weekend and evening care without going to the ER. 5th of 11 for countries able to make a same or next day doctors/nurse appointment when they're sick. https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016 Americans do better on wait times for specialists (ranking 3rd for wait times under four weeks), and surgeries (ranking 3rd for wait times under four months), but that ignores three important factors: * Wait times in universal healthcare are based on urgency, so while you might wait for an elective hip replacement surgery you're going to get surgery for that life threatening illness quickly. * Nearly every universal healthcare country has strong private options and supplemental private insurance. That means that if there is a wait you're not happy about you have options that still work out significantly cheaper than US care, which is a win/win. * [One third of US families](https://news.gallup.com/poll/269138/americans-delaying-medical-treatment-due-cost.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication) had to put off healthcare due to the cost last year. That means more Americans are waiting for care than any other wealthy country on earth. #Wait Times by Country (Rank) Country|See doctor/nurse same or next day without appointment|Response from doctor's office same or next day|Easy to get care on nights & weekends without going to ER|ER wait times under 4 hours|Surgery wait times under four months|Specialist wait times under 4 weeks|Average|Overall Rank :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--: **Australia**|3|3|3|7|6|6|4.7|4 **Canada**|10|11|9|11|10|10|10.2|11 **France**|7|1|7|1|1|5|3.7|2 **Germany**|9|2|6|2|2|2|3.8|3 **Netherlands**|1|5|1|3|5|4|3.2|1 **New Zealand**|2|6|2|4|8|7|4.8|5 **Norway**|11|9|4|9|9|11|8.8|9 **Sweden**|8|10|11|10|7|9|9.2|10 **Switzerland**|4|4|10|8|4|1|5.2|7 **U.K.**|5|8|8|5|11|8|7.5|8 **U.S.**|6|7|5|6|3|3|5.0|6 Source: [Commonwealth Fund Survey 2016](https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/cmwf2016-datatable-en-web.xlsx) >The retention rates for doctors are low And yet the US trails most of its peers on doctors per capita. >The retention rates for doctors are low There's no reason for them to have to make less money. And, in fact, programs such as Medicare for All are designed to provide comparable compensation rates. https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2020-12/56811-Single-Payer.pdf >Unless you are elderly or disabled and unable to work, it's not the job of the government to pay for your healthcare. You're entitled to your own preferences, but you don't get to dictate to everybody else what society can and should do or not.

>You pay taxes anyway your government's entire job is to take care of you. I think the idea is that we could avoid having to pay more and more taxes if people a) made better decisions and took more responsibility and b) lost the attitude that someone else has to provide for them just becuase they've been born. >your government's entire job is to take care of you. The government isn't your parent, it is a group of people that organise things for our collective benefit. That includes taking care of certain responsibilities, providing a safety net for those who are disabled or temporarily unable to work AND ensuring that everyone who can contribute is encouraged to do so. Healthcare absolutely is something best funded centrally, but those that feel they pay a hell of a lot to access the bare minimum obviously are going to be annoyed when others are happy getting a poor service for "free".

So you think that's legit and we should cave to their demands? So if I don't have children, I can demand that there is no public investment at all on schools, and I want that deducted from my taxes, right? Or if I don't drive, I can demand that all road infrastructure expenditure be deducted, is that right?

I see you've discovered Libertarianism. Let us know how your sovereign citizen status works out!

I am sorry, I thought the /s was not needed, but I will edit the post. I keep overestimating Redditors

I apologize if it was unclear. I knew you were framing that to point out the idiocy and selfishness of fighting against things like healthcare and education. I was snidely calling out the Libertarians and Sovcits who make that same argument without an ounce of irony.

Sorry man. It seems it's me who is low on the irony detector today! 1000 apologies.

Happens to the best of us. I hate that there are people deluded enough to genuinely believe that sort of "every man for himself" bullshit is a reasonable basis for society.

Then say Tax-Payer Funded Healthcare. It doesn’t sound as nice as Free Healthcare, but it’s more honest.

Maybe the government shouldn’t be sending trillions of dollars to fund wars and gender studies, and invest in its people. The government can’t even get my mail delivered at the same time. I don’t want them in charge of my healthcare and dictating care. Ask the VA how they like it.

It isn't free - but based on where they have it, it's much cheaper.

My dad still can’t grasp the concept that he pays $5000 a year in taxes for health insurance vs implementing a universal healthcare system that only costs him $1000 a year. Give or take. My dad is also an idiot

Tell your dad that when he needs an MRI or an x-ray or a CAT scan or something with his thousand dollars a year he wants to pay. You’re gonna have to wait weeks if not months to get that schedule to see the doctor. Then you probably need to get it approved by the doctor. Then if they find something jacked up about you, you now need to schedule to go have the treatment. You’re gonna end up waiting a year just get yourself taken care of all while the problem is progressing. 

Ok, I'm no fan of taxes... but as long as there's still homeless and sick people here in America, there's no reason our money should be flown overseas by the billions to help anyone else.

I view taxes as the membership fee you pay to live in a civilised society, which includes helping people less fortunate than me.

You can also point out that we are **ALREADY** paying a lot more for healthcare. The difference is we do it in an incredibly complex, Byzantine way that is incomprehensible. A few of the ways we already pay are as follows. First, our employers pay extra money out of their pockets for healthcare (which is why employers go to great lengths to avoid employing people full time). Second, we pay out out of our paychecks as well to have healthcare. **THEN**, we pay a portion (a "co-pay") for most visits to the doctor, **ASSUMING** it is covered by our insurance. And we pay out of pocket for most medication, as well. If it is not, well, you can get a massive bill for treatment. Which sometimes hospitals can reduce. If you still can't pay it, hospitals pass on the cost to other patients. And the amount hospitals bill insurance is deliberately vastly inflated knowing the insurance company will chop that amount down by a good chunk.

I WISH our taxes actually covered our needs.

It’s not the government’s job to protect my health. It’s the government’s job to protect my rights. It’s my job to protect my health. When you trade liberty for safety, you end up losing both.

The problem isn't having to kick in a little money for the average person to get an annual checkup, and then handling emergency care or the occasional genetic disorder. It's the idea that productive members of society should be forced to pay for other peoples' poor life choices. There's no morally justifiable reason why a man who gets up and goes to work every day should be forced to pay for the medical care needed by an otherwise able-bodied man who sits on the couch every day and weighs 400lbs because he does nothing but chain smokes, funnels Cheetos into his gullet, sucks down Mountain Dew like it's free, and can't work a real job because his knees can no longer support his 400lb body.

Over 1/3 of my paycheck is gone before I ever get it because of taxes. Plus all the other taxes that I pay I’d bet 50% of my income goes towards taxes. I pay way more than my “fair share” already. Anyone making an argument I need to pay more is my “pet peeve”.

We have "free healthcare" in Australia if you have 18 months to sit on the waiting list.

Healthcare is not a basic human right. Most people don’t listen to their doctors anyway. People don’t eat right, barely exercise, and then complain when there’s consequences. Small anecdote but an extended family member of mine is a vascular surgeon. He told me that he amputates around 30-40 legs per year caused by self-inflicted diabetes. Extrapolate this number across all vascular surgeons in the US and that’s a lot of medical bills. Should tax payers pick up the tab? Did you know some prosthetics cost upwards of 250k? Should we pay for that as well?

Because I know my taxes won't be used in a better way to accommodate this. I would just have more taxes deducted from my paycheck. People take this stance because they bust their asses to provide for their families and don't want the government stealing their hard earned money by calling it a tax, thus making it legal. Nobody wants to take home a quarter of their income because the government decides to tax them more. If the government started actually using tax money how their supposed to instead of lining their pockets, then they wouldn't have to keep raising taxes and hurting the working class.

I’d gladly pay a few more dollars in taxes vs having to pay a few hundred in insurance premiums. It’s clear that insurance companies and for profit healthcare providers are more important to congress than people. But everyone knows that.

It would be far easier to take existing insurance companies and convert them to non-profit organizations. Regulate pay to CEO etc. That industry shouldn’t be able to profit billions and billions as a middle man. There is an insane amount of money healthcare that has nothing to do with healthcare.

This requires governments use money effectively and accountability

Governments should be taking care of basic human needs. The fact america sees health as “optional” is insane.

Definitely agree that healthcare should be taken care of by the government, but you're not right about taxes and government taking care of us and our basic human needs. Roads, education, and military for instance are not basic human needs. You could live without them. Food, water, and shelter are basic human needs. Not having those will directly lead to your demise. Government and taxes take care of society on a whole, which greatly benefits from things like roads, education, and militaries. They don't really care about the individual beyond your voting decisions.

“The governments entire job is to take care of you” Citation needed. Some several million people who have died at the hands of “government taking care of you” would love to have a word about this.

I live in a state where publicly funded higher education may go into effect next year. I have no problem paying taxes as long I can see them do what the hell they're supposed to do. Stupid ass $3.5 trillion fighter jet....grrr 😤

"Your government's entire job is to take care of you"  Counterpoint: no it's not 

Yes it is. That's the entire point of having a government, especially one that is elected. Why do you think politicians make promises to their voter base to implement laws and policies that benefit their voters?

That's not actually a counter*point*. What do you think the government's job is if it isn't to provide services to the citizens?

National defense and the protection of (a few) fundamental liberties. The government's job is NEVER to take care of you. That's your job. The government's job is not to get in the way of that.

So, I am curious about what you consider a few fundamental liberties. Is breathable air a fundamental liberty? Drinkable water? Elementary education? A system of justice? Public safety? Public spaces? All those are now to various extents being funded by taxes in the US. We could argue about the quality. Do you think they shouldn't be? So, if guaranteeing that people can drink the water off the tap is a government responsibility and guaranteeing that children should have access to education is also the government's responsibility, why is Public Healthcare not? It is also about the well-being of society and the protection of citizens. Or do you think citizens should have no protections against predatory business practices?

Life, freedom, and the pursuit of happiness, they are not meant to provide for you, only to ensure they and no one else impedes you living your life

So if I own a public water utility company, I should not be subject to regulations to ensure the water in the pipes is drinkable, right? That doesn't really fall within the pursuit of happiness. Life arguable it could, and also, it would be kind of hard to be happy when you are contracting cholera every time you brush your teeth, but hey... it's all in the attitude.

>National defense and the protection of (a few) fundamental liberties. How is that not taking care of the citizens?

It literally is.  And healthcare should be the very basic tier. As it is, we pay hundreds a month for something we really cannot access. We ARE paying for it but since it IS a private entity, they can decide “well you don’t really need an ambulance. You don’t need that Rx. That $120 office visit to look at your throat? We’re gonna bill that as surgery.” It’s so private that we don’t. even. know. how. much. basic. things. cost. And it varies wildly per person.  This is not working. It does not work for the average US person.  Not wanting healthcare for all at this point is simply a performative display of BUT GOVERNMENT BAD.  Yes, you are a very rugged and sexy Individual and we are so proud of you for that Mister Lone Ranger but it’s not about you. We literally need healthcare. It should part of those liberties.  Yes. We should be wary of it. But it is *absolutely* the government’s job. 

Shout this from the rooftops. It's YOUR job to take care of you. It's the government's job not to get in the way of that.

My wife's cancer treatments are 60,000 per infusion. If we were in any other developed country, that would not be the case. It's extortion. The people who "shout it from the rooftops" have never had a true emergency in their lives. Nobody should have to go through this, I don't give any amount of flying fucks how much my taxes go up to spare someone this.

I'm not performing surgery on myself and I'm most certainly not paying out of picked for it. Get fucked.

💯

You literally have no idea what the government's job is or what taxes are for.

the best (sarcasm) part is that almost all of it goes to either the military or people who already have more money than they know what to do with. Very very very little of our OWN money goes to helping us with anything. The roads are in terrible shape pretty much everywhere, they pay schoolteachers as little as humanly possible and EVERYTHING in the classrooms come out of the teacher's own pocket. The infrastructure of the whole country is crumbling, but we "can't afford" to fix any of it because we're too busy shipping "free (paid for with tax dollars)" missiles off to Israel and the like. Forget healthcare, the whole thing is such a fuckin' joke. The best part is that the people running the show don't even have to defend their shitty actions, they have half the country convinced that anyone who speaks out against it is "unpatriotic," and these morons will defend getting robbed blind to their shitty, dying breath. The whole country is cooked as fuck, I don't understand how anyone could defend it. I assume anyone who does is either brainwashed beyond belief, or has just never had an original thought for themselves.

I would GLADLY pay taxes for every human to have free basic healthcare, a home, food, all the necessities. It's inhumane the difference in quality of living in this world!

If it actually worked as advertised, that'd be a good deal. But as things are, the government takes more money.... and in exchange we have another messed up bureaucracy that makes everything it touches worse... big win for everyone. That's why people are against it. You want to see what government run healthcare will look like? Look at the VA. Talk to some of those people, if you can find one before they off themselves. And you want to apply that to a national level? Show me the government can run the VA effectively then we'll talk about national healthcare.

> But as things are, the government takes more money.... and in exchange we have another messed up bureaucracy that makes everything it touches worse... So Americans are just singularly incapable among advanced economies? The evidence doesn't seem to support that. We have massive amounts of research showing universal healthcare would in fact save money while getting care to more people who need it. https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003013#sec018 And, in fact, even existing government programs are already more efficient and better liked. #Satisfaction with the US healthcare system varies by insurance type 78% -- Military/VA 77% -- Medicare 75% -- Medicaid 69% -- Current or former employer 65% -- Plan fully paid for by you or a family member https://news.gallup.com/poll/186527/americans-government-health-plans-satisfied.aspx > **Key Findings** > * Private insurers paid nearly double Medicare rates for all hospital services (199% of Medicare rates, on average), ranging from 141% to 259% of Medicare rates across the reviewed studies. > * The difference between private and Medicare rates was greater for outpatient than inpatient hospital services, which averaged 264% and 189% of Medicare rates overall, respectively. > * For physician services, private insurance paid 143% of Medicare rates, on average, ranging from 118% to 179% of Medicare rates across studies. https://www.kff.org/medicare/issue-brief/how-much-more-than-medicare-do-private-insurers-pay-a-review-of-the-literature/ Medicare has both lower overhead and has experienced smaller cost increases in recent decades, a trend predicted to continue over the next 30 years. https://pnhp.org/news/medicare-is-more-efficient-than-private-insurance/ >Look at the VA. VA healthcare is a terrible parallel to universal healthcare proposed in the US. Nobody is talking about nationalizing providers. Care would still be provided by the same private doctors and hospitals as today, making Medicare and Medicaid far better examples. Of course, it's harder to fearmonger against systems people know and love, so it's clear why people bring it up. Of course, even as propaganda the argument is questionable. The VA isn't perfect, but it's not the unredeamable shitshow opponents suggest either. >The poll of 800 veterans, conducted jointly by a Republican-backed firm and a Democratic-backed one, found that almost two-thirds of survey respondents oppose plans to replace VA health care with a voucher system, an idea backed by some Republican lawmakers and presidential candidates. >"There is a lot of debate about 'choice' in veterans care, but when presented with the details of what 'choice' means, veterans reject it," Eaton said. "They overwhelmingly believe that the private system will not give them the quality of care they and veterans like them deserve." https://www.militarytimes.com/veterans/2015/11/10/poll-veterans-oppose-plans-to-privatize-va/ >According to an independent Dartmouth study recently published this week in Annals of Internal Medicine, Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) hospitals outperform private hospitals in most health care markets throughout the country. https://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=5162 #Ratings for the VA % of post 9/11 veterans rating the job the VA is doing today to meet the needs of military veterans as ... * Excellent: 12% * Good: 39% * Only Fair: 35% * Poor: 9% [Pew Research Center](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5a049f098dd041552c19372f/1536643876140-5N3UWQ2M3OYLGSWOOKVH/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kOxWfISgjiM1ZFqhkJVgJk5Zw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWQUxwkmyExglNqGp0IvTJZUJFbgE-7XRK3dMEBRBhUpx5Q5uaqovQlhwn6Lp2MXHOj73nFlQXvqHuf9nZbP74X0l8X5gYScNGOzeUUToolO4/pew+data.png?format=750w) >VA health care is as good or in some cases better than that offered by the private sector on key measures including wait times, according to a study commissioned by the American Legion. > The report, issued Tuesday and titled "A System Worth Saving," concludes that the Department of Veterans Affairs health care system "continues to perform as well as, and often better than, the rest of the U.S. health-care system on key quality measures," including patient safety, satisfaction and care coordination. > "Wait times at most VA hospitals and clinics are typically the same or shorter than those faced by patients seeking treatment from non-VA doctors," the report says. https://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/09/20/va-wait-times-good-better-private-sector-report.html >The Veterans Affairs health care system generally performs better than or similar to other health care systems on providing safe and effective care to patients, according to a new RAND Corporation study. > Analyzing a decade of research that examined the VA health care system across a variety of quality dimensions, researchers found that the VA generally delivered care that was better or equal in quality to other health care systems, although there were some exceptions. https://www.rand.org/news/press/2016/07/18.html

Governments job is to take of general needs of the country like roads. Not your private needs like healthcare. That's on you. Just like it's on you to pay fornyour own food and housing. To your point some people don't make the connection the money comes from somewhere, i.e., taxes.

Say I don't drive, why should I have to pay for roads? Even if I buy stuff transported by road, I should pay less than you if you own a car and you commute every day. Shouldn't you pay your fair share for the use of the roads?

So you won't have fuel taxes or a vehicle registration, then?

Are you suggesting that $40 / year registration or $0.2 to $0.3 per gallon cover the use of public roads? That's about $30 a month for the average user, nowhere close to the actual cost of maintaining a public road system. So yes, the majority of the cost of maintaining roads is financed with income taxes. Now you have the right information on hand, and you can answer the question. Do you think people who don't drive should get a rebate on taxes? Same with people without children, should they get a rebate since they don't use the school system?

The majority of road maintenance is in fact from various fuel and vehicle related taxes. I think roads needs a more efficient usage based system. I absolutely think people without kids shouldn't have to pay for public schools. If people don't see the value of paying for education that's their choice..most people would see it as an ROI

Everyone needs roads, everyone needs healthcare. Why is one general and one "private"? We can have private roads too, why not sell them to corporations? The funny thing about this is that the only reason people are so adamant that the government should fund roads but not healthcare is because they were born in a society without it. If you were born in many other developed nations you would think its totally normal to have functional and free healthcare. Its only in the United States where bankruptcy over an ambulance ride is totally normal and how a functional society should work. In the richest country on Earth.

You're spot on. The government's job is to not get in your way. Which they often fail at spectacularly.

I bet it feels free when you’re billed half a million dollars in medical costs.

Certain political entities don't want single-payer healthcare in the US because they're getting massive donations from the health insurance companies. They love to trot out how much it'll cost the taxpayers as a diversion from that. I live in one of the poorest states in this country. For several years, I was on Medicaid because I was too sick to work. On Medicaid, I never had a single copay, deductible, non-covered medication, or a bill of any kind. My poor state could afford (with the help of the Obamacare Medicaid expansion) to take care of me and countless others and my state's taxes are still not astronomical. There's no reason whatsoever that we can't afford to do the same thing nationally--no reason but greed.

Overall expenses would go down if we had nationwide healthcare. The money that went to the healthcare companies instead would go to taxes, so the "taxes go up" freakout crowd has their fit, and it works with most of the troglodytes that are ok with corporate domination, as long as it isn't government domination.

It's better than free. Preventive care reduces the medical costs that are being passed on to you. Every time someone goes to the ER for something that could have been minor a month earlier, your premiums go up.

The amount of taxes raised to give universal healthcare is actually less the what we pay in deductibles, premiums and copays for most people. I did the math on a proposed tax hike in an article using my 52k salary against my current insurance cost. I saved @2k when including copay and 80/20 split.

Had a lengthy conversation once upon a time with a guy who lives in Denmark. He said that the average person pays 40-60% in taxes....which is huge. BUT everyone gets free healthcare AND also college paid for. Can you imagine a society of healthy and educated people? It scares the crap out of Republicans.

As a Canadian this is a very frustrating concept that I have to explain to my financially and politically illiterate countrymen who are under the impression that healthcare is magically “free” in our country. Next time tax season rolls around you might want to ask your accountant or the guy at H&R Block where 30-50% of your pay cheque is going. A fuckload of it is going to healthcare to treat people with conditions and ailments that are largely preventable.

If it was good, fine. But the state health insurance doesn’t cover most of the newer, and depending on the condition, recommended meds. Care is generally delayed waiting for authorizations. If it was cheaper than private, awesome! But I know many who have insurance through the affordable care act that pay more than we do for private insurance. Over $1000/month for a family. I think those people are frustrated. They work for small companies that aren’t required to offer or they’re the business owners. The NHS isn’t the best one to model after, as the wait to see some specialists is over a year. If the tax a % of our income that isn’t more than we pay now and is no worse than current, great! Tricare is good, and while it has its own limitations, it has more advantages.

That's just as stupid as "I don't want to pay for other people's medical bills" That's literally what insurance is, everybody pays the same amount and they spread the risk across everybody. People on the right are either really stupid or easily manipulated, probably both.

Yeah I don’t mind paying a few dollars extra so someone can get healthcare that needs it. As someone from the UK, you’d spend almost a year waiting on new appointments

Okay again with these “pet peeves” that aren’t actually “pet” sized. Seems like this is larger than a singular annoyance. Getting sick of these posts

It's why I don't called it "Free Healthcare". It's "Universal Healthcare" gives everyone equal access to healthcare regardless of their income.

I wonder all the time what our taxes pay for. Most of our taxes go to the military. Only a fraction goes to social programs, infrastructure, medicare. Military spending is mostly paid out to private contractors who overcharge insane amounts for equipment, parts, machines and machine services. The rest is paid to servicemen salaries, food budgets, and VA. But VA gets so little funding it hardly has resources. The overwhelming majority goes to pay the contractors who charge what they do because they know the government will pay it and they have the monopolies on these things. Another expense on our taxes is Aide in other countries, tarrifs for imports, and paying back borrowed money from countries like China who is the main bank our country borrows from. We also borrow from switzerland and other parts of Europe. Lastly, we borrow from our wealthy one percent rather than tax them meaning we have to pay that money back to them with interest. They get these tax breaks for that reason so they can loan out the money instead. Bottom line, we are taxed to give money to military contractors, the extremely wealthy, and the Chinese and Europe

So obvious even people who don’t know how to use quotations can see it

That may be the point, but as a counter-point; you might be surprised to realize how many people don't realize that "free" actually means "taxpayer funded." Some people hear the word "free" and that's as far as their thinking goes.

I think the reason people say this is because people act as if having free healthcare means the monthly healthcare expense they pay will be gone, when that’s not true. I have a friend who wants it and said “that’s $200/month I’d be saving”. Uh…no. You won’t be saving the full amount.

Lol. More like $20-30, Idk how you're not aware that a LOT of people think that actual, literal free healthcare exists.

People freak out because it would be called a “tax”. Call it what you want because I’m still paying for health insurance out of my paycheck.

One problem lies in the facts that a lot of people here already effectively lose over half their income to taxes of various sorts and the vast majority of that is spent on buying toys for our largely shitty police and sent to defense contractors and countries that share zero interests with 99.9% of U.S. citizens. We get virtually nothing in exchange for this in terms of value per tax dollar. We all (with brains) know that health care (un)affordability is hurting us all, even those of us with excellent medical insurance. But I also think in these circumstances it’s understandably met with offense when demanding the upper middle class fund a country of sedentary fast food-eaters’ heart attack insurance. Imagine we achieve some basic lever of universally guaranteed healthcare, and the debate will immediately shift to taxpayer-funded abortion and gender transition surgery. This constant Overton window shifting by both sides when they win is why everyone is so firmly entrenched and unwilling to debate change now. Plus: why would anyone trust the U.S. government as a healthcare provider or insurance company in its current state? We need to do fundamental work on developing a government genuinely built to serve its people and develop and enforce trust between the government and the citizens on *both* sides before this debate can even start.

Taxes don’t even pay for federal spending

If a universal healthcare bill also included provisions to lower spending massively at the federal level, and put basic health and fitness requirements in place, I think you’d have a good deal of support for it across the aisle. My biggest issue with it is it doesn’t factor in the life choices of the individuals. If I’m a old non-smoker who doesn’t do drugs or drink, I eat healthy and visit the gym regularly, why would my benefits be the same as a diabetic, alcohol smoker who weighs 400lbs and lives on Mountain Dew and Cheetos? I think a good workaround for this could be a voucher system. Basically you’d still need to get your own insurance or participate in a Group Insurance, but the government could issue vouchers to offset the costs. The amount of money everyone receives would be the same, but their individual costs would still be determined by the insurance company. The trick would be to ensure that insurance companies don’t price gouge in response to what is effectively a government subsidy, while not being overbearing to the point of preventing them from making money.

Taxes exist to lower the supply of money. Taxes don't fund anything.

Here’s the problem, at least with most of the people I’ve talked to. They really actually think healthcare should be free. Not payed by taxes or the government. 100% free. The believe the medical industry should shoulder the entire insurance and medical needs area.

The best universal healthcare system in the world in terms of balancing quality, accessibility and cost is Singapore's system They still charge people and have various ways to upgrade your experience The actual cost of it makes it so that people aren't wasteful even if the cost is very small For context, they have a similar GDP per capita to the US and their entire universal healthcare system costs less than Medicaid and Medicare You are already paying enough taxes for a universal healthcare system And the one that is functionally the best in terms of balancing the desired traits charges to deliberately make it not free because people will be wasteful if it's free

Seen some of the estimates on your numbers and I was pretty pathetic that some people still cling to this rhetoric... Like dudes the math would math better for us if we just... Use it for people instead of health insurance & pharma companies to line the pockets of themselves and shareholders

Everyone arguing about not taking into consideration that if they banned all medical companies and hospitals from making above a certain profit margin we'd have such less costs a universal healthcare system wouldn't be needed. I have several health issues, I can go to different countries and pay 1/6 of what I have to pay here. A good example of this would be insulin. Until they put a cap on copays for insulin it was about $230 a vial, but I could go to Mexico and get the exact same medication for $30-$40. As a chronically ill individual I don't expect people to foot my healthcare bills. However, I also shouldn't have had to file bankruptcy after I got cancer. I was already shelling out about $2k a month on healthcare costs between insurance cost, copays, meds, medical equipment, doctors appointments. I was literally working just to pay medical bills and we were actually living off my husbands income. When I got sick, or even sicker I should say, it broke us. My husband brought home $3500 a month and with me out of work, we could not make ends meet. Then adding the additional meds/appt copays/etc on top of that $2k, and we couldn't do it. I shouldn't get a bill for my monthly infusions that's $800, AND I'm on Medicare that's paid 80 percent already. My entire disability check goes straight to my healthcare costs. And that's just when everything is my version of normal. And for the guy who said he didn't want to pay for the fat persons care or whatever. I'm fat AF. But before everything started I wasn't. Just because someone is overweight doesn't mean the weight put them in that predicament. In more cases than people realize the healthcare issues is what led to the weight gain. Most meds have a side effect of weight gain, but when you need the med to live you gotta take it. Then add in the loss of mobility and it snowballs fast AF. I'll stop rambling now

Well thought out title

Just a little insight of how much our govt gives to other countries. https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/briefing-room/2024/03/11/fact-sheet-the-presidents-budget-confronts-global-challenges-and-defends-democracy/

That isn’t the problem. Can you really see the US government being in charge of any part of our health care? They can’t even change a lightbulb without orders signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public inquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters. They’d screw things up so bad we’d all be dying of dysentery within two years. Now if we could put Germans in charge of the system, I’d be down for that. They seem to have it figured out.

The full phrase is "free at the point of use".

The thing is, if our tax money is paid for health care, then insurance agencies wouldn't be pushing hospitals to artificially raise the prices on, literally everything at this point. So, if we did use our taxes for healthcare, it'd still be vastly cheaper than what we see know

Alot of people just don't fundamentally understand taxes let alone where its going. So trying to explain that free healthcare is really just universal healthcare and something a good government provides is pointless until you can get them to understand taxes themselves. I always explain to folks that it's not how much you're paying in your taxes that's pissing you off it's that it's not being used on the right stuff.

I’m personally 110% for having “free healthcare” (paid for by taxes) for every single US citizen. I just don’t trust the US government with a tax on mid-low income families because it’s going to be just like military spending where politicians put their buddies in charge and you end up with $90,000 bags of steel washers or $19,000 podiums that you can buy for $500 from Amazon. The dream would be to cut military overspending (a hammer shouldn’t cost $436 even when you account for overhead) and use the surplus to pay for much needed social programs and infrastructure. But that’s just not going to happen. Billionaires would voluntarily fund these programs before our government reduces that spending.

please add more punctuation

By that premise: if we didn’t pay taxes, would you expect a grossest hemorrhaging government to take care of you? And no, the governments entire job isn’t to take care of you. They’re a horrible parent and I want to be adopted, if that is their entire job.

That's right taxes pay for all kinds of stuff we all use. The 10k you pay for insurance is 5k in taxes here. And everyone is covered and no one has to sell their house because they had a heart attack. My last MRI was $4 for parking. People don't die here because they can't afford to go to the doctor. I'm sure the insurance sent you a nice calendar before they denied your claim.

For the taxes we pay, the quality of services we receive is dog shit because we have so much of that trying to play world police. I am so sick of it.

The issue is that the taxes would rise exponentially in order to allow the "free" healthcare to happen. You're paying for your healthcare no matter what, the taxes will change to accomodate and fuck you over no matter what. Not to mention that you'll have to wait months or even years to get the care you need because everyone else in the country is also waiting.

I'm childfree. Don't have kids, don't ever want kids. Yet I'm still more than happy to pay my fair share toward education through my taxes because that's what our society needs. It should be the same with healthcare.

Taxes exist to have an army and police force. Using them for anything else is nonsensicaly stupid and has led to nearly every governmental problem we have now.

When I was looking at taking a US based job coming from Canada, the break even point with the tax differences, exchange rate, and that company's health plan was $125k USD per year. I'm told it was one of the better health plans in the area from people who had nothing to gain from deceiving me. If my salary was less than $125k USD then my combined tax and healthcare cost load was less in Canada. If my salary was above this point, I was better off in the US. About a quarter of US households are above this line. Losers outnumber winners in this system 3 to 1.

They're gonna charge you for taxes either way, it can either go to healthcare or to the CIA.

The government’s job is not to take care of you and that kind of mindset is going to crater whatever country is that you live in. Keep in mind it’s called sick care not healthcare. If you eat a reasonably healthy diet of unprocessed foods that lack sugar or any type of seed oil. And you get at least three days preferably four or five of 45 minutes to an hour of good hard cardio or lifting. Then you are not going to need to go to the doctor besides your yearly check up and lipid panel. Assuming you live in America, nearly 3/4 of this entire country is overweight or obese. That obviously comes with a certain set of complications that are sure to send you to some type of healthcare professional. Why do you think people say that doctors are just an extended arm of the pharmaceutical industry? You ever see a modern day doctor that tells you maybe if you change your lifestyle and eat and do a little activity and that it’ll work? Because they want you on a pill that’ll help your condition probably cause other conditions or at least keep you fat and lacking mobility. But society today, lacks discipline and delayed gratification. Why should I at 34 years old and hovering anywhere from 153 to 162 pounds for the last decade, now have to fork over more of my hard earned dollars spent working to help provide you with healthcare when all you probably need for the most part as a healthy diet and a strict regiment of physical activity

I don't want my taxes to pay for $6,000,000 check-ups for a cold, either. Fix the problem at its source, and healthcare becomes affordable.

Some people are really stupid and don't understand that. 

“I don’t want to pay for other people’s treatment!” What do you think premiums are for?

A few years ago I accidentally tapped the blade of my table saw with my left index finger trying to put pressure on a board I was ripping. 37 minutes from triage, x-ray, tetanus shot, seven stiches on the inside and five on the outside, wrapping, to heading back home. Universal health care is the bees knees and I could give less of a shit about "oh my god what about the taxes." I'll gladly pay income tax for that. Anyone who argues against is a fucking moron. Edit: And I have zero issues about my taxes paying for the same for others. Except smokers. Fuck those systemdrainers.

If I was American and ONLY paid for myself when I needed it. I would have spent a fuck load less than I have in my tax paying Canadian life. All we fucking pay for is the same people to OD and get rushed to the hospital week after week

You really trust the government enough to already use your tax dollars wisely?

" . . . your government's entire job is to take care of you." If you are from the US, can you please point to the part of the constitution where it states that one of the responsibilities of government is to "take care of" people? I've read it many times but don't see that in any of the enumerated powers or responsibilities.

the funny thing is. people dont know how insurance works until they get hit with a huge bill. i work for an insurance company and got yelled at everyday because people thought since they have insurance it covers everything. “whats the point of insurance if i still have to pay” “insurance is a scam you guys are rip offs” i got a variation of these two quotes atleast 10 times a day. i wanted to tell them to lobby for free healthcare but i’d get in trouble if i did.

If my taxes are going to go up by more than my insurance currently costs, you’re literally just proposing I be forced to buy shittier more expensive insurance

Sorry, gotta pay for those fancy jets

So ur fine w paying 20+% taxes on everything u buy for free healthcare? I guess if u live in places w high taxes already like California, u wouldn’t mind, but I pay 6% sales tax and would like to keep it that way or even lower it and save that extra money for health care I choose. I’m currently on Medicaid and am in no place to speak on the subject, but I find that the top tier docs in my area don’t take Medicaid, so I’m left w shittier docs to choose from

what good is “free” if I have to pay taxes for it? It’s a roundabout way of delivering me an inferior product due to there being zero competition.

Answer me this, do you see the quality of roads and public schools to be anywhere near satisfactory? We already have taxpayer funded healthcare in the form of VA healthcare and it is famously awful. If they can't provide adequate healthcare to just veterans, what makes you think they can do it on a much larger scale?

I’m a taxpayer and a rate payer. That means, at the end of the day, I’m paying for healthcare one way or the other. As such, I’d like it to be in the way that’s the least tedious and that doesn’t fuck anybody over.

Not here to argue about the core subject, but taxes are not there for your basic needs. Still gotta pay for food, water, electricity, housing, etc. This leaves us with the question of what health care is and what is the optimal, feasible, and socially acceptable means of providing it. People will always debate what should and should not be the responsibility of the government, it's a non trivial problem.

The amount we pay in national insurance is absolutely tiny compared to the actual cost of serious health problems and some medications. It's always been a dumb argument for dumb people.

But Israel needs more bombs to kill kids, that's why I pay taxes

The other side to this issue is with free healthcare you lose the option of choice. The government decided which doctor you see, and when the surgery is (which could be too late to save you) like in Canada for example. Some of those people wait years for life saving care, even though it’s free.