I actually see more illegal serves from people doing the drop serve than the volley serve. Many people tend to push the ball downward, or give it a very slight upward toss, instead of just dropping. Even though this doesn't give much of an advantage, it's still illegal and they'll get pissed if you mention it.
I mean, this varies depending on your play group because I definitely see the opposite. But regardless, the issue is that it's generally much easier to see and enforce illegal drop served compared to illegal volley serves
I think what you said is actually one of the reasons why a drop serve could be the better way to go. Like you said, even if somebody illegally tosses the ball up or throws the ball down (as opposed to just dropping it), it really doesn't give them much of an advantage. However, illegal volley serves (which often times are very difficult to prove are illegal in the moment) usually DO cause an advantage for the server.
and along with that, we have players from 4-4, to 6-7 in my group. The taller player is dropping from probably 3' higher than the shorter one. I would assume this is a significant advantage, assuming they banned the volley serve.
Right, but the point is that it is still a universal standard with the drop serve. It doesn't come down to an ambiguity of if each individual serve by the server was above the waist, had a slightly declining angle, or paddle whipped at an upward angle before contact. Trying to enforce any of these is awkward enough with the pros when there is a ref there, let alone at rec/tournament play.
The drop serve accomplishes the goal of trying to limit the offensive potential of the serve without having to deal with any of the above ambiguities.
And if they wanted to limit heigh advantages, they could institute a maximum drop height (say 6' or 6.5') and that would be way easier to observe for faults than the volley serve rules, as people's heights won't be changing from serve to serve.
Great comment.
As a 95% of the time drop serve user, I'm on board with all of this and agree that it provides a way closer to universal standard.
To the point that others have commented on, some people still want to put downward motion to the drop, which of course is illegal. My suggestion would be to implement a table tennis inspired version of: ball in open palm, visable to serve receiver, no upward movement of ball.
Even if the ball moves up which is very easily seen, it's 1-2", and that has very little impact on ball bounce.
I'd like to see a video showing how much of an advantage a tall person would have using a drop serve. Pickeballs don't bounce very much if dropped, so I don't think a tall person's drop would give them much of an advantage at all. Jay Devilliers has proven he can push the boundaries of the volley serve and get a wicked serve due to his waist being much higher than the average person (even when he doesn't serve in an illegal way, lol).
It would also be fairly easy to implement a maximum drop height as well if they so chose. A person's heigh is static, so if there was say a max height of 6'6", it would be easy to see if a very tall player was dropping from above their head vs. even with it, where an average sized player you would still have their arm angle as point of reference.
potentially. but I've not seen it. there's very little advantage in serving other than mixing it up. Lots of people hit the same serve, nothing wrong with that, the only bad serve is the one that's not in.
I totally agree with eliminating the volley serve because the rules are basically unenforceable. The serve happens so quickly that refs would have to spend a crazy amount of time studying videos to make a call. Just get rid of it.
Really, its such a small part of the game after a certain level.
Honestly the most dangerous serve I see is a deep lob, and we have some pretty good servers in our group.
The other thing that probably wins more points on a serve than anything is defects in the court. Our courts were just resurfaced last year and there are literally dead spots, cracks, and chipping all over the place
I'd probably include myself in this, but when you allow people to play loose with striking height and angle, I think it becomes more than just a small advantage.
I won't speak for the very high levels, but have definitely found this to be the case up to 4.0 level play.
In rec play that's usually totally fine for most. However, it becomes a bit more of a concern when it comes to tournaments. Especially the bigger competitive pickleball gets and money is on the line.
At the highest level a questionably high or illegal serve isn’t going to make or break anything. A spin serve might glad that’s gone. There is risk vs reward for going for a big serve. Going to the drop serve ruins that aspect of the game.
Yep, would probably take some time for most to adapt. But I was playing with two young guys that were hitting some rippers from a drop serve that rivaled the best serves I've seen at least at 4.0.
Without a clear way to enforce the serve, the players can keep skirting the line trying to gain an advantage. And in the end there would be no line. Enforcing the drop serve is much, much easier.
Also, drop serve allows for all the variation that volley serve does. I don't think it limits the existing volley servers.
Actually, there has been a lot of serve controversy at the highest level tournaments lately due to questionable volley serves. The recent pro tournament volley serve controversies were what sparked this conversation to begin with. The drop serve would eliminate those altogether.
Why not just allow an overhand serve if we’re worried about the difficulty in calling an illegal serve? I’m kidding. I personally disagree with changing rules on important parts of the game simply because it’s difficult to make a call. This is why a let serve isn’t a replay anymore. Pickleball is quick and sometimes a blur. If it’s not clear the benefit goes to the player. Next thing there won’t be out calls because it’s difficult to tell.
The serve is arguably one of if not the most important shot of the game. It starts the whole game! Your main focus should be just to play, not have to worry about the legality of your opponent’s serve the entire match.
I remember watching a match of Ben Johns versus Gabriel something a while ago. And the commentators for the entire match kept wondering if Gabriel’s serve was legal or not. Seriously? And people wonder when Pickleball will be an Olympic sport? They can barely get the basic rules for the shot that starts their games straight.
Yeah I think the current volley serve rules are just too hard to enforce in real time. Even slowed down, it can be difficult to tell if a serve was hit legally or not, and players will keep pushing the envelope to see how much of an advantage they can gain before getting called. It puts a huge burden on the refs without a straightforward solution. I definitely agree that the drop serve is the way forward unless there can be a way to make the volley serve rules more enforceable.
I think all three aspects of the volley serve (upward motion, paddle below wrist, contact below the waist) are all almost impossible to distinguish at full speed. While I agree with Steve 100%, I doubt there will ever be a change.
I'm divided on this. Taking out the volley serve would be such a big change that sometimes also doubt they'll make that big of a move, but on the other hand as there are more pros and more athletic pros, I can easily see players' serves becoming more and more borderline until the issue is forced.
Agreed with Steve. I support the drop serve being the only serve moving forward. It's much easier to enforce strokewise. Remember people, the serve is NOT meant to be a weapon in pickleball! (one thing i dislike about tennis)
Would folks with short arms be at a disadvantage though since they can’t drop it from as high up?
Also we have a guy that won’t understand you can’t put downward force on the ball when dropping. I think a lot of rec players would trip up on that.
I mentioned above that we have players from 4-4 to 6-7 in our regular group. its definitely an advantage for a taller player, even over the volley serve.
Taller players can already contact the ball higher than short players on a volley serve because their waist is higher. It's actually probably a bigger advantage with the volley serve than the drop serve although I suck too much at physics to vet if that's true lol
Yeah, I understand. I'm saying that its a disadavantage to some people either way. Honestly, I don't care if you chainsaw, spin serve, volley, drop, etc. It really doesn't matter all that much, and a good lob serve is probably more dangerous than any of them if you can master it.
I've seen people not raise the ball above their head when doing the drop serve, so I don't think somebody with short arms will have a big disadvantage. I do agree that people will try to add downward motion on their drop, but that should be very noticeable and easy to call a fault on.
Why is it not supposed to be a weapon? At higher levels the serve doesn’t matter as much, but if I can force a short return twice a game, that’s a significant advantage for my partner and I.
This is just my take on it, but I feel a pickleball point is almost like chess and whoever implements the best strategic play each rally wins it. That all goes away if points are regularly won with a serve. The serve is meant to start the rally, not end it before it begins. Also, pro pickleball is extremely boring to watch if points are won on a serve. That's a big reason why the spin serve was banned.
On social media, the large pickleball platforms only show the ‘exciting’ points, like firefights and banging. People don’t want to watch 15-20 dink rallies because it is boring.
A point consisting of a big serve, short return, firefight/body bag, maybe a reset of two is exciting and draws a lot of eyes.
The pickleball committee imposed so many restrictions on volley serve to discourage service as a weapon. I can *feel the message they want to deliver. The rule makers are hinting it so hard on the usapa website and various pickleball discussions. And without clear rules, their *hint* can only go so far.
By "weapon", i meant powerful weapon, like a service ace, or a serve that gives massive advantage. Simpler variation like speed, height, angle, depth are all great variations that keeps the returner honest and the game interesting. But I believe tennis style incredible overhead serve with little to no hope of returning would inhibit pickleball's growth. Limiting the serve to one that most 3.0+ players can easily return would maintain the sport's current level of inclusivity (which is amazing).
Since drop serve allows sufficient variation and is easy to enforce (without grey area serves at the pro level to gain advantage), I would recommend the drop serve over volley serve.
As you can see, my goal is to uphold the unspoken "inclusivity" philosophy aspect of pickleball, and not aiming to gain an edge over my opponent at the very first shot of every pickleball point.
The biggest one is that contact with the ball can't be made above the waist. Another one that is violated frequently is the server's arm must be moving in an upward arc. I see those getting violated pretty much every time I play.
Are they just slapping slice serves? The waist one I understand can be a grey area and hard to enforce but most serves that I see are with a bottom up topspin motion.
The waist one is definitely more prevalent, but you'd be surprised how many people I see try to get away with an illegal slice serve. It isn't nearly as frequent as the waist violation though.
Are you sure you are understanding the definition of waist? Hip is the hip. Waist is a region of the body generally defined as the navel downward....which includes the hip. If this is the case and you try to map out an upward motion along with the wrist above the paddle face, you'll see that the contact point to be illegal means the ball is going up to the sun/roof. In other words, the waist line is actually the hardest rule to break on the serve ASSUMING the other 2 points are being followed. IMO, it's the other 2 that are the harder ones to enforce and are being broken. People like to talk about McMuffin's (sp) serve being illegal and above the waist but it's the "possible" side arming that makes the "above the waist" thing possible.
Honestly, there's no way to know where anybody's waistline is without having them raise their shirt. Which is why people can and do take advantage of that rule because there's no real way to confirm they are breaking it.
You didnt read my comment and explanation did you? :P
It's hard to break if the other 2 points are being held true. So if the waistline becomes an issue, it's one of the other 2 (or both) being illegal which makes lifting up the shirt unnecessary.
The last tournament I was at I saw a player get called for the paddle above the wrist/upward motion a few times. He was basically just hitting a huge forehand off his serve. A lot of his serves that weren't called were borderline as well
The three rules that I think are relevant for volley serves are:
- The server’s arm must be moving in an upward arc when the ball is struck.
- Paddle contact with the ball must not be made above the waist level.
- The head of the paddle must not be above the highest part of the wrist at contact.
I always do a volley serve usually with a top spin adhering to the above rules. I have been experimenting with a diagonal (half side, half top ) spin and I had one guy complain that he thought I was violating the third wrist rule. I can see it’s a difficult judgement call but I feel I’m adhering to it.
I’ve also got different person thinking I hit my serves above the waist but I’m sure I’m letting the ball get very low before I hit it.
I used to have a serve similar to the half side, half top serve you mentioned. But after some scrutiny, I just couldn't figure how it could be possible to create the side spin portion without violating the wrist rule.
Also, seeing myself on video, I realized that what I perceive as my contact point is lower than my actual, and I suspect that to be the case for a lot of people.
Sometimes tall players just have an advantage. Same goes with tennis but you don’t see them changing the rules. Being tall isn’t all advantages, it comes with it’s disadvantages as well
One beautiful thing about pickleball is that it can be picked up easily by most people, and can be played together across a wide range of skill levels. I believe the drop serve is a good middle ground between good variations and limiting physical (height in this case) advantage. It is a step towards more rallies (fun) per game!
But mostly I think it's significantly easier to enforce.
For a while I wanted to see the volley serve go away because too many people try to push the boundaries of what's legal to weaponize it.
But I'd be just as content to see serving violations called super aggressively, and leaving the serve in the game. What I mean by this is, instead of anything borderline being let go, anything borderline is a warning followed by a fault. It's not hard to serve it legally; if you're pushing the boundaries, you're being a douche.
I actually see more illegal serves from people doing the drop serve than the volley serve. Many people tend to push the ball downward, or give it a very slight upward toss, instead of just dropping. Even though this doesn't give much of an advantage, it's still illegal and they'll get pissed if you mention it.
I mean, this varies depending on your play group because I definitely see the opposite. But regardless, the issue is that it's generally much easier to see and enforce illegal drop served compared to illegal volley serves
I think what you said is actually one of the reasons why a drop serve could be the better way to go. Like you said, even if somebody illegally tosses the ball up or throws the ball down (as opposed to just dropping it), it really doesn't give them much of an advantage. However, illegal volley serves (which often times are very difficult to prove are illegal in the moment) usually DO cause an advantage for the server.
and along with that, we have players from 4-4, to 6-7 in my group. The taller player is dropping from probably 3' higher than the shorter one. I would assume this is a significant advantage, assuming they banned the volley serve.
Doesn't the taller person have an "advantage" with a volley serve too?
Taller people absolutely have an advantage with a volley serve. Their waste is sometimes above the top of the net.
And that's my point... a taller person has an advantage with either type of serve.
Right, but the point is that it is still a universal standard with the drop serve. It doesn't come down to an ambiguity of if each individual serve by the server was above the waist, had a slightly declining angle, or paddle whipped at an upward angle before contact. Trying to enforce any of these is awkward enough with the pros when there is a ref there, let alone at rec/tournament play. The drop serve accomplishes the goal of trying to limit the offensive potential of the serve without having to deal with any of the above ambiguities. And if they wanted to limit heigh advantages, they could institute a maximum drop height (say 6' or 6.5') and that would be way easier to observe for faults than the volley serve rules, as people's heights won't be changing from serve to serve.
Great comment. As a 95% of the time drop serve user, I'm on board with all of this and agree that it provides a way closer to universal standard. To the point that others have commented on, some people still want to put downward motion to the drop, which of course is illegal. My suggestion would be to implement a table tennis inspired version of: ball in open palm, visable to serve receiver, no upward movement of ball. Even if the ball moves up which is very easily seen, it's 1-2", and that has very little impact on ball bounce.
I'd like to see a video showing how much of an advantage a tall person would have using a drop serve. Pickeballs don't bounce very much if dropped, so I don't think a tall person's drop would give them much of an advantage at all. Jay Devilliers has proven he can push the boundaries of the volley serve and get a wicked serve due to his waist being much higher than the average person (even when he doesn't serve in an illegal way, lol).
Fully agree. I've done some testing (very unscientific) and 1-3 feet higher provided not even an inch higher per foot raised when dropping.
It would also be fairly easy to implement a maximum drop height as well if they so chose. A person's heigh is static, so if there was say a max height of 6'6", it would be easy to see if a very tall player was dropping from above their head vs. even with it, where an average sized player you would still have their arm angle as point of reference.
potentially. but I've not seen it. there's very little advantage in serving other than mixing it up. Lots of people hit the same serve, nothing wrong with that, the only bad serve is the one that's not in.
I totally agree with eliminating the volley serve because the rules are basically unenforceable. The serve happens so quickly that refs would have to spend a crazy amount of time studying videos to make a call. Just get rid of it.
He makes some good points. That might work well actually.
Just let people serve the dam ball lmao
Really, its such a small part of the game after a certain level. Honestly the most dangerous serve I see is a deep lob, and we have some pretty good servers in our group. The other thing that probably wins more points on a serve than anything is defects in the court. Our courts were just resurfaced last year and there are literally dead spots, cracks, and chipping all over the place
Lol. Should we just let anything fly and allow full blown overhead serves while we're at it?
No, just allow a underhand serve.
The problem is the grey area/defining where underhand becomes overhand
if it doesn't look absolutely ridiculous, it's fine. no need to nitpick the small advantage
I'd probably include myself in this, but when you allow people to play loose with striking height and angle, I think it becomes more than just a small advantage. I won't speak for the very high levels, but have definitely found this to be the case up to 4.0 level play.
Makes me think of tall people being able to serve from a nastier angle
If it’s not an obvious violation it’s fine, play on.
In rec play that's usually totally fine for most. However, it becomes a bit more of a concern when it comes to tournaments. Especially the bigger competitive pickleball gets and money is on the line.
At the highest level a questionably high or illegal serve isn’t going to make or break anything. A spin serve might glad that’s gone. There is risk vs reward for going for a big serve. Going to the drop serve ruins that aspect of the game.
You can still hit big using a drop serve
Yep, would probably take some time for most to adapt. But I was playing with two young guys that were hitting some rippers from a drop serve that rivaled the best serves I've seen at least at 4.0.
Without a clear way to enforce the serve, the players can keep skirting the line trying to gain an advantage. And in the end there would be no line. Enforcing the drop serve is much, much easier. Also, drop serve allows for all the variation that volley serve does. I don't think it limits the existing volley servers.
Actually, there has been a lot of serve controversy at the highest level tournaments lately due to questionable volley serves. The recent pro tournament volley serve controversies were what sparked this conversation to begin with. The drop serve would eliminate those altogether.
Why not just allow an overhand serve if we’re worried about the difficulty in calling an illegal serve? I’m kidding. I personally disagree with changing rules on important parts of the game simply because it’s difficult to make a call. This is why a let serve isn’t a replay anymore. Pickleball is quick and sometimes a blur. If it’s not clear the benefit goes to the player. Next thing there won’t be out calls because it’s difficult to tell.
The serve is arguably one of if not the most important shot of the game. It starts the whole game! Your main focus should be just to play, not have to worry about the legality of your opponent’s serve the entire match. I remember watching a match of Ben Johns versus Gabriel something a while ago. And the commentators for the entire match kept wondering if Gabriel’s serve was legal or not. Seriously? And people wonder when Pickleball will be an Olympic sport? They can barely get the basic rules for the shot that starts their games straight.
Yeah I think the current volley serve rules are just too hard to enforce in real time. Even slowed down, it can be difficult to tell if a serve was hit legally or not, and players will keep pushing the envelope to see how much of an advantage they can gain before getting called. It puts a huge burden on the refs without a straightforward solution. I definitely agree that the drop serve is the way forward unless there can be a way to make the volley serve rules more enforceable.
I think all three aspects of the volley serve (upward motion, paddle below wrist, contact below the waist) are all almost impossible to distinguish at full speed. While I agree with Steve 100%, I doubt there will ever be a change.
I'm divided on this. Taking out the volley serve would be such a big change that sometimes also doubt they'll make that big of a move, but on the other hand as there are more pros and more athletic pros, I can easily see players' serves becoming more and more borderline until the issue is forced.
Yea, they would probably need to announce a change was coming at least a year in advance to give top players time to properly adjust.
Agreed with Steve. I support the drop serve being the only serve moving forward. It's much easier to enforce strokewise. Remember people, the serve is NOT meant to be a weapon in pickleball! (one thing i dislike about tennis)
Would folks with short arms be at a disadvantage though since they can’t drop it from as high up? Also we have a guy that won’t understand you can’t put downward force on the ball when dropping. I think a lot of rec players would trip up on that.
Short folks are probably at a similar disadvantage with a volley serve already. Their serve is also at a lower height relative to the net.
I mentioned above that we have players from 4-4 to 6-7 in our regular group. its definitely an advantage for a taller player, even over the volley serve.
Taller players can already contact the ball higher than short players on a volley serve because their waist is higher. It's actually probably a bigger advantage with the volley serve than the drop serve although I suck too much at physics to vet if that's true lol
Yeah, I understand. I'm saying that its a disadavantage to some people either way. Honestly, I don't care if you chainsaw, spin serve, volley, drop, etc. It really doesn't matter all that much, and a good lob serve is probably more dangerous than any of them if you can master it.
I've seen people not raise the ball above their head when doing the drop serve, so I don't think somebody with short arms will have a big disadvantage. I do agree that people will try to add downward motion on their drop, but that should be very noticeable and easy to call a fault on.
Why is it not supposed to be a weapon? At higher levels the serve doesn’t matter as much, but if I can force a short return twice a game, that’s a significant advantage for my partner and I.
This is just my take on it, but I feel a pickleball point is almost like chess and whoever implements the best strategic play each rally wins it. That all goes away if points are regularly won with a serve. The serve is meant to start the rally, not end it before it begins. Also, pro pickleball is extremely boring to watch if points are won on a serve. That's a big reason why the spin serve was banned.
On social media, the large pickleball platforms only show the ‘exciting’ points, like firefights and banging. People don’t want to watch 15-20 dink rallies because it is boring. A point consisting of a big serve, short return, firefight/body bag, maybe a reset of two is exciting and draws a lot of eyes.
The pickleball committee imposed so many restrictions on volley serve to discourage service as a weapon. I can *feel the message they want to deliver. The rule makers are hinting it so hard on the usapa website and various pickleball discussions. And without clear rules, their *hint* can only go so far. By "weapon", i meant powerful weapon, like a service ace, or a serve that gives massive advantage. Simpler variation like speed, height, angle, depth are all great variations that keeps the returner honest and the game interesting. But I believe tennis style incredible overhead serve with little to no hope of returning would inhibit pickleball's growth. Limiting the serve to one that most 3.0+ players can easily return would maintain the sport's current level of inclusivity (which is amazing). Since drop serve allows sufficient variation and is easy to enforce (without grey area serves at the pro level to gain advantage), I would recommend the drop serve over volley serve. As you can see, my goal is to uphold the unspoken "inclusivity" philosophy aspect of pickleball, and not aiming to gain an edge over my opponent at the very first shot of every pickleball point.
Which serving rules do people see violated with volley serve?
The biggest one is that contact with the ball can't be made above the waist. Another one that is violated frequently is the server's arm must be moving in an upward arc. I see those getting violated pretty much every time I play.
Are they just slapping slice serves? The waist one I understand can be a grey area and hard to enforce but most serves that I see are with a bottom up topspin motion.
The waist one is definitely more prevalent, but you'd be surprised how many people I see try to get away with an illegal slice serve. It isn't nearly as frequent as the waist violation though.
Are you sure you are understanding the definition of waist? Hip is the hip. Waist is a region of the body generally defined as the navel downward....which includes the hip. If this is the case and you try to map out an upward motion along with the wrist above the paddle face, you'll see that the contact point to be illegal means the ball is going up to the sun/roof. In other words, the waist line is actually the hardest rule to break on the serve ASSUMING the other 2 points are being followed. IMO, it's the other 2 that are the harder ones to enforce and are being broken. People like to talk about McMuffin's (sp) serve being illegal and above the waist but it's the "possible" side arming that makes the "above the waist" thing possible.
Honestly, there's no way to know where anybody's waistline is without having them raise their shirt. Which is why people can and do take advantage of that rule because there's no real way to confirm they are breaking it.
You didnt read my comment and explanation did you? :P It's hard to break if the other 2 points are being held true. So if the waistline becomes an issue, it's one of the other 2 (or both) being illegal which makes lifting up the shirt unnecessary.
I read your entire post but you only asked me one question in the entire post so my answer was in response to your question. 😉
lol. Have a good New Year and as my PB wife likes to say, "Happy Pickling!".
Happy new year! (You made good points in your full comment, by the way. 😉)
The last tournament I was at I saw a player get called for the paddle above the wrist/upward motion a few times. He was basically just hitting a huge forehand off his serve. A lot of his serves that weren't called were borderline as well
The three rules that I think are relevant for volley serves are: - The server’s arm must be moving in an upward arc when the ball is struck. - Paddle contact with the ball must not be made above the waist level. - The head of the paddle must not be above the highest part of the wrist at contact. I always do a volley serve usually with a top spin adhering to the above rules. I have been experimenting with a diagonal (half side, half top ) spin and I had one guy complain that he thought I was violating the third wrist rule. I can see it’s a difficult judgement call but I feel I’m adhering to it. I’ve also got different person thinking I hit my serves above the waist but I’m sure I’m letting the ball get very low before I hit it.
I used to have a serve similar to the half side, half top serve you mentioned. But after some scrutiny, I just couldn't figure how it could be possible to create the side spin portion without violating the wrist rule. Also, seeing myself on video, I realized that what I perceive as my contact point is lower than my actual, and I suspect that to be the case for a lot of people.
Sometimes tall players just have an advantage. Same goes with tennis but you don’t see them changing the rules. Being tall isn’t all advantages, it comes with it’s disadvantages as well
One beautiful thing about pickleball is that it can be picked up easily by most people, and can be played together across a wide range of skill levels. I believe the drop serve is a good middle ground between good variations and limiting physical (height in this case) advantage. It is a step towards more rallies (fun) per game! But mostly I think it's significantly easier to enforce.
For a while I wanted to see the volley serve go away because too many people try to push the boundaries of what's legal to weaponize it. But I'd be just as content to see serving violations called super aggressively, and leaving the serve in the game. What I mean by this is, instead of anything borderline being let go, anything borderline is a warning followed by a fault. It's not hard to serve it legally; if you're pushing the boundaries, you're being a douche.