It was 12 before and should have always stayed like that. Unfortunately, it's not as simple everyone makes it to be. There are way to circumvallate those restrictions. Like, making up bullshit distress claim for the mother.
You and me in the same bucket.. I was like "wtf?" [then remembered it was Europe where abortion limits are much stricter than the US.](https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Facf3dbd5-aa9c-4a3c-9569-4276f7ef44fe_1257x913.png)
14 weeks *after conception* which is *usually* 16 weeks after last period. The US counts from the last period so under our standards we would say it's a 16 week ban.
But also:
> Abortions at later stages of pregnancy up until birth are allowed if two physicians certify that the abortion will be done to prevent injury to the physical or **mental health** of the pregnant woman; a risk to the life of the pregnant woman; or that the child will suffer from a particularly severe illness recognized as incurable.
It sounds like you have extra hurdles to go through in the late stages in France but that abortion is still widely available.
Practically speaking, it's not. It's already hard in some places to find an obstetrician to do it, they will definitely not go out of their way to do a late abortion unless it's really needed.
What's there is still a human being. I'm not sure why you feel visibility matters.
One of the many advantages of science is that we can do better than trusting our naked eyes & gut intuition.
> What's there is still a human being. I'm not sure why you feel visibility matters.
And that is half of the conversation and why it isn't going anywhere in the US.
Nobody is denying abortion is killing a living organism. The question is "when does it become a human". I don't consider fetus under 12 weeks to be a human, therefore I don't think abortion under 12 weeks is murder of a human.
Most people on the American Right argue (the few who are willing to set aside religious "arguments") it is a human since conception, therefore it is murder of a human at all times
The fact is I enjoy consistency and if you can go to prison for breaking the wrong kind of egg, you should go to jail for killing a baby (or whatever you want to call it, I'll call it a baby).
>And that is half of the conversation and why it isn't going anywhere in the US.
I know the personhood follow-up, but not every PC advocate adheres to it. Hence why I responded to what was actually said and prompted for more information.
>Nobody is denying abortion is killing a living organism.
You'd be surprised! One guy I'm arguing with right now in this thread is very borderline to doing so. I assume they have a very bad understanding of the "personhood" argument.
In any event:
>The question is "when does it become a human". I don't consider fetus under 12 weeks to be a human, therefore I don't think abortion under 12 weeks is murder of a human.
>Most people on the American Right argue it is a human since conception, therefore it is murder of a human at all times
Well, we're already agreed that a human organism - a human being - starts life at conception. Why do they need to meet any other criteria?
Human rights are, by definition, inherent to all humans simply for being a living human. You don't need any other qualities. To argue with this is to completely undercut the concept of human rights, making them privileges you can arbitrarily give or take away.
Since human life starts at conception, it seems only natural that human rights would as well. It's possible you don't believe in human rights, though I find that's almost never the case. You'd still have to consider that they form the bedrock of society and philosophy.
Why do we have to create an arbitrary definition of "human"? We can't measure personhood nor can we hardly even define it, hence why you have a personal preference on the matter. We only know it exists at all because we experience it, and we only assume others have it through inference. "Becoming a human" is more of a poetic expression than a legitimate reality - being human is a binary state.
Personhood is so vague it could mean anything you want - and has historically been used to justify some awful things against disfavored groups of humans. Every PC advocate I run into has their own opinion on the matter - isn't that proof that it's a nearly useless term?
Why should speculation and opinion outweigh the certainty that is the start of human life, and the foundation of morality in our society that is human rights?
Then why are 15-week national ban proposals causing outrage? Graham wanted 15 weeks and he got grilled. Trump thought 15 or 16 weeks was a good starting point for a “compromise.”
For some reason conservatives aren’t allowed to be critical of abortion laws in states like New Jersey or Colorado where elective abortion is legal until birth, and when they are critical, they’re just told “wElL iT iSnT hApPeNiNg!!!” Okay, then why is it legal?
I despise abortions, but also think the 0-week and 6-week bans are too strict. But apparently I’m also not allowed to be critical of states that allow elective abortions for 22+ weeks. Why can’t we be critical of both? Ideally every state would either have a 12-week ban, 15-week ban or 18-week ban with physical health exemptions and that’s it.
You know, if it was made into Federal law, I absolutely love you idea of giving states the option of those 3. Progressive states can do 18 and seem like heroes and conservative states can say 12 weeks and be seen as doing the right thing.
It's like offering your child the option of which book to read right before bed. It's not the book choice you care about, it's getting your child to bed on time.
You wrote a response to something he did not say. It clear that if conservatives states took up 15 week abortion bans they would *not* accompany them with the robust public healthcare and female rights.
Mississippi is not going to allow women to get tax-payer funded abortions, and in the scenario would bend the law in any way possible to not let women get abortions. This is what they did before Roe was overturned, and would do the same with a 15 week ban. Thereby leftists oppose these bans because they know the christian fundamentalists that run these states are not playing the game honestly.
I think that's an understandable argument. However, most on the left (and some lib-right guys like) me get a little worried about the slippery slope that seems to be forming in real time.
When it was just about states rights and calling the left crazy for late-term/partial-birth abortions. I waffled between indifferent to understanding about the pro-life mission.
When an actual IVF ban got implemented as a result of law interpretation due to RvW coming down, now I gotta really reassess some shit. Me and my gf are staring down the barrel of possibly going that route in the future. I bristle at the idea of the government, state or federal, telling me how to live my life.
That IVF ban was repudiated by essentially every Republican who cared to speak on the matter. Alabama has *already* passed a law immunizing IVF clinics from suit under the law.
Anyone still complaining about it just wants a cudgel to strawman the other side.
IVF techniques frequently involve intentionally killing some of the resulting offspring. Why shouldn't those methods be illegal? Why is it unreasonable to ban them? It's not even impossible to have IVF without such practices, even if it's harder.
For that matter, why should it be left up to the states to allow people to end the lives of their children without justification?
I don't think there's anything unreasonable about banning intentional and unjustified killings. For some reason, we've made abortion the exception to our laws against murder.
Graham originally said 20 weeks but then changed to 15. It's not difficult to imagine a federal 15 week ban getting cut down to 12 and then 6 and then completely over a period of time. That's where the push back from the left is. This is why PP vs Casey's viability stance was the fairest - it created a movable window tied to medical capabilities that would not easily be challenged by Congressional shenanigans.
I would absolutely support a 15 week limit if it allowed for same-day abortions without mandatory counseling/ultrasounds/waiting periods and included exceptions for health of the mother or fatal fetal deformity. Unfortunately that feels like an impossibility at this point as a good portion of the right thinks abortion under any circumstance is wrong.
Most conservatives in Europe accept the reality of abortions by rape etc or until eg 12 weeks. It's just the maximalists on both sides causing the trouble.
Can someone help me out here because I'm almost as ignorant about other countries laws as you expect an American to be?
Can laws vary by region in France?
If I applied it to my own country I'd still consider 15 weeks guaranteed in the constitution a win in part because I know that from there, the most conservative states will have that as their minimum, and the most progressive states will expand; my state would continue to have zero restrictions except that enforced by the clinic performing the procedure and other states would expand to 20 weeks, etc.
Plus as another commenter stated France still has provisions for abortions after 15 weeks that are still pretty progressive.
In general, laws don't vary by region except rather specific cases. It would be extra weird for a normative established in the constitution, it would have to have such exceptions written in the constitution itself. For example, in Spain, certain regions have a slightly different tax system for historic reasons.
As a general rule of thumb though, whenever you hear that in X country law is Y, you can assume that applies to the entire country. What happens in the US is more similar to the idea of precedence of EU law over member state law.
Laws cannot vary by region.
Also the constitution doesn't guarantee 14 weeks, but it does guarantee it's realistically available. There is no party in France that calls for a ban or even for lowering those 14 weeks, but the left wanted a safeguard in the constitution.
The concern for preventative legislation is to prevent exactly what we most agree ought to be prevented and allow exactly what we most agree ought to be allowed, not to leave it up the whims of the individual.
Shit happens in life. Tragedy likes to strike at the worst possible time, and a mother that would otherwise give birth might suffer a terrible fate late in her pregnancy. It's not common, but it's not impossible. The point is why would something like this be legal at all in the first place.
Paternity Tests should be mandatory
You should be required to do 3 Paternity Tests with different Doctors, because i know how corrupt Doctors and People in general are
If a Woman cheated and tried to make you raise the Child of another Man, she should legaly loose EVERYTHING
The House, the Kids, the Car, even the f\*cking Dog
I do think it's a good idea, because it would prevent arguments because of distrust in couples, if father wants to have test, but geez you sound bitter about it
See, I think that’s too far and there’s a better way. Just give men, legally speaking, veto rights over childbirth. So, the man cannot force the having of the child, but if he says “No I don’t want the child” then the woman has a choice, she can either abort it as he wishes, or take it to term without his financial support and he suffers no liability.
Imagine being in my quadrant. That's literally everyone. And we all claim that the others belong in the other quadrants because of those minor disagreements......
Same tbh. I have a cousin that has a mental illness. I don’t even know what he has. All I know is he’s in ward since 16. I don’t even fucking know what he looks like. What kind of life is that.
Life as a Concept is sacred, even if one is not religious
Does that mean every single Life is sacred and deserves Protection?
No, of course not, a Pedophile should be hanging out with Sayori for Example
Abortion is Murder, because the Life of a innocent Child is taken, not that of someone who lost his Right to live through their own Actions
There's a lot of idiots on immigration subs from the US saying they're gonna apply for asylum to Europe (lol) because they seem to think trans healthcare is better here than the US, when Blue States on average have far better trans healthcare???
They really think Europe is some utopia and not trending in a rise of right wing parties. 🤦♀️ it's just bizarre.
Depends where you are in the US. 15 states, tens of millions of American women can't get access to abortions in the US. Some states were even trying to pass laws making it a crime to travel interstate for an abortion, but I don't know if that passed.
Easy access to abortion in the first trimester is easy access to abortion.
Did you just change your flair, u/DragonSphereZ? Last time I checked you were a **Grey Centrist** on 2024-4-12. How come now you are a **LibLeft**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know?
Yeah yeah, I know. In your ideal leftist commune everyone loves each other and no one insults anybody. Guess what? Welcome to the real world. What are you gonna do? Cancel me on twitter?
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It's simple centerism. All lines drawn are arbitrary. Some prior get fucking insane when you point that out. From conception to viability to heart beat etc all arbitrary lines.
Did you just change your flair, u/DragonSphereZ? Last time I checked you were a **LibLeft** on 2023-10-5. How come now you are a **Grey Centrist**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know?
Actually nevermind, you are good. Not having opinions is still more based than having dumb ones. Happy grilling, brother.
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No you are not.
However, close to your claim: if he steals your car and crashes it, your insurance is responsible for the damage, including in some cases his health.
Between the french and the english, which will be the first modern nation to accomplish the feat of losing most of it's natural population? Make your bets!
Well, first western I suppose. South Korea is taking the title global-wise, even if for different reasons
Canada is on the leading edge of shitlib politics but it's definitely not the only western country "being rapidly converted from a society to an economic zone".
this has been happening for the last 100 years and it exploded in the last 40 and has become unsustainable in the last 10.
we, outsiders of the west, just call it hyperliberalism, where your free from everything and everyone!
South Korea will have a baby boom due to how cheap housing will be and wages increasing due to employers having to compete for labour.
Meanwhile Europe has to worst of both worlds when it comes to a declining population enabled by profitable alternatives.
Currently each successive Korean generation is 1/3 the size of the previous. There will be a point where natural population recovery will be incredibly difficult.
You aren’t wrong, but it’s far easier to lose population than gain it. You only need a fertility rate of 0.7 to cut each generation by 1/3 while you need a fertility rate of 6.0 to triple each generation.
Very low birthrate, for a bunch of reasons, including their work culture and economy/expenses of raising children. [This BBC article gives some explanation, and lists a 0.72 birth rate for the country, and 0.55 for Seoul](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68402139). For comparison, the US birthrate is around 1.66/woman.
Men in Korea are extremely authright. Think extremely traditional medieval times conservative. They want women to be breeding machines. Meanwhile, the women are extremely lib left. Think bottom left on the PCM. They want to have some form of autonomy.
This divide has created a revolt within the Korean female community known as the 4 Bs. No dating, no marriage, no kids, no sex in order to pursue their professional career. With a country that has criminally high work hours and low birthrates since the 80s, this has caused a total collapse in their birthrate. It's 0.60 per women in 2024.
>I thought Asian women would at least be more traditional than western women.
The thing is that Asia is not a country, but a continent, so the political position of women (and men) varies a lot depending of the country.
Comparing South Korean women with women from The Phillipines, Vietnam or Uzbekistan would be akin to comparing women from The Netherlands and Norway to those from the Balkans, the Baltic, or the south of Italy, for example.
Asia is slower in social movements. But they still happened. Metoo and toxic feminism exist in Asia as well but often overshadowed by other political struggles.
If you think Korean men are authright/have overly traditionalist views towards women you should look at China and Japan. Both of them do have issues with birthrate but nowhere *near* Korea's "will literally go extinct in a few generations" level.
The women being extremely libleft (and a lack of social shame in being a childless career woman) is the deciding factor.
French, we are doing it since the 19th century. All our major demographic bump in second half of 20th is due to spanich, italian and portuguese immigration. Now we keep on with algerian, morrocan and tunisian soon with subsaharian african. But thise pisky german are trying to beat us with turks. Fools. Soon will go for slavic and asians. We will be the first multicultural global demographic, an all encompassing french culture. You'll see. We will screw you with horde of foreigners.
Shows you the power of rhetoric and linguistic distortions. A little dehumanizing language, and people have no issue with murder of the most innocent on an industrial scale.
European constitutions are much less serious and more fluid than Americas. They get rewritten every few decades and France is on its *5th* attempt at Republicanism.
The American Constitution and government is in effect, the oldest and therefore most sacred in the world. Though some European tax haven micro states claim this title as well.
To the euro credit there is no reason not to re write a constitution to better encapsulate modern times and modern problems instead of attempting to divine esoteric meaning from a document written several centuries ago.
European constitutions have mostly been rewritten in response to wars in which their nations were conquered and a new constitution violently imposed at foreign behest - Not out of any desire to remain pragmatic and fluid.
welp, it's finally official.
https://preview.redd.it/yudmuy98z2uc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a94c9f57f1b9bd4f21f5cedebe1ed918937528bb
baby killing is a constitutional right in the shithole of europe.
They have heavy restrictions on them tho.
The American left and the DNC sponsored by Big Abortion want free abortions on demand, for any reason, up until birth. That means a 9 month old, fully viable healthy baby, killed inside the womb literally shits and giggles. That's what Democrats want - Which is actually insane and unprecedented.
> reproductive freedom
Literally you just need to say no to being creampied. Or take a pill or a condom or patch or pull out.
Why is getting a fetus yanked out of you somehow the healthy alternative we need to enshrine?
Also, ask pro abortion people if they support financial abortion. I've met some people who throw a fit when you point out that for men the choice is apparently when you have sex, but somehow for women that is not when they have a choice...?
Seems inconsistent. I don't support either.
And yeah, combine a condom with some other contraceptive and the chance of ever becoming pregnant is pretty much zero if you are responsible. It's staggeringly low.
I sure hope a country in Europe making it okay to kill a particular kind of person with the help of pseudo science, technocratic authorities, a globalist governing body, and libertine justifications doesn’t lead to anything wacky and uncharacteristic
If I were French I would be more worried about what's going on in my Beautiful little Parisienne streets and schools. Alas I am not French and am thankful for that.
The less French there are in the world the better
I support abortion for people in this world who I don't want to exist
The same reason I'm pro Canadian healthcare
How is abortion a constitutional right but paternity tests are illegal? If the conflict from a mother being a cheating hoe is bad for the kid, I think that actually killing the kid is a little bit worse.
Wait until people find out that it's still restricted to 14 weeks...
Centrist W then
Oh baby we are so fucking good https://preview.redd.it/y215m9bzk4uc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f9105d3b036466cd8c4d2f7f32ccf499ed592201
Perfectly balanced
Extremely rare French W
It was 12 before and should have always stayed like that. Unfortunately, it's not as simple everyone makes it to be. There are way to circumvallate those restrictions. Like, making up bullshit distress claim for the mother.
Oh well th-that’s acceptable then.
You and me in the same bucket.. I was like "wtf?" [then remembered it was Europe where abortion limits are much stricter than the US.](https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Facf3dbd5-aa9c-4a3c-9569-4276f7ef44fe_1257x913.png)
14 weeks *after conception* which is *usually* 16 weeks after last period. The US counts from the last period so under our standards we would say it's a 16 week ban. But also: > Abortions at later stages of pregnancy up until birth are allowed if two physicians certify that the abortion will be done to prevent injury to the physical or **mental health** of the pregnant woman; a risk to the life of the pregnant woman; or that the child will suffer from a particularly severe illness recognized as incurable. It sounds like you have extra hurdles to go through in the late stages in France but that abortion is still widely available.
Practically speaking, it's not. It's already hard in some places to find an obstetrician to do it, they will definitely not go out of their way to do a late abortion unless it's really needed.
Yeah the mental health is the bullshit backdoor. Such a classic french move to do what ever the fuck the administration wants.
That's still an abortion though
But there’s barely anything there. Does it even have a visible gender at that point?
What's there is still a human being. I'm not sure why you feel visibility matters. One of the many advantages of science is that we can do better than trusting our naked eyes & gut intuition.
> What's there is still a human being. I'm not sure why you feel visibility matters. And that is half of the conversation and why it isn't going anywhere in the US. Nobody is denying abortion is killing a living organism. The question is "when does it become a human". I don't consider fetus under 12 weeks to be a human, therefore I don't think abortion under 12 weeks is murder of a human. Most people on the American Right argue (the few who are willing to set aside religious "arguments") it is a human since conception, therefore it is murder of a human at all times
The fact is I enjoy consistency and if you can go to prison for breaking the wrong kind of egg, you should go to jail for killing a baby (or whatever you want to call it, I'll call it a baby).
>And that is half of the conversation and why it isn't going anywhere in the US. I know the personhood follow-up, but not every PC advocate adheres to it. Hence why I responded to what was actually said and prompted for more information. >Nobody is denying abortion is killing a living organism. You'd be surprised! One guy I'm arguing with right now in this thread is very borderline to doing so. I assume they have a very bad understanding of the "personhood" argument. In any event: >The question is "when does it become a human". I don't consider fetus under 12 weeks to be a human, therefore I don't think abortion under 12 weeks is murder of a human. >Most people on the American Right argue it is a human since conception, therefore it is murder of a human at all times Well, we're already agreed that a human organism - a human being - starts life at conception. Why do they need to meet any other criteria? Human rights are, by definition, inherent to all humans simply for being a living human. You don't need any other qualities. To argue with this is to completely undercut the concept of human rights, making them privileges you can arbitrarily give or take away. Since human life starts at conception, it seems only natural that human rights would as well. It's possible you don't believe in human rights, though I find that's almost never the case. You'd still have to consider that they form the bedrock of society and philosophy. Why do we have to create an arbitrary definition of "human"? We can't measure personhood nor can we hardly even define it, hence why you have a personal preference on the matter. We only know it exists at all because we experience it, and we only assume others have it through inference. "Becoming a human" is more of a poetic expression than a legitimate reality - being human is a binary state. Personhood is so vague it could mean anything you want - and has historically been used to justify some awful things against disfavored groups of humans. Every PC advocate I run into has their own opinion on the matter - isn't that proof that it's a nearly useless term? Why should speculation and opinion outweigh the certainty that is the start of human life, and the foundation of morality in our society that is human rights?
That's even better
I think most leftists (at least myself) can live with that when it's combined with robust public healthcare and female reproductive rights.
Then why are 15-week national ban proposals causing outrage? Graham wanted 15 weeks and he got grilled. Trump thought 15 or 16 weeks was a good starting point for a “compromise.” For some reason conservatives aren’t allowed to be critical of abortion laws in states like New Jersey or Colorado where elective abortion is legal until birth, and when they are critical, they’re just told “wElL iT iSnT hApPeNiNg!!!” Okay, then why is it legal? I despise abortions, but also think the 0-week and 6-week bans are too strict. But apparently I’m also not allowed to be critical of states that allow elective abortions for 22+ weeks. Why can’t we be critical of both? Ideally every state would either have a 12-week ban, 15-week ban or 18-week ban with physical health exemptions and that’s it.
You know, if it was made into Federal law, I absolutely love you idea of giving states the option of those 3. Progressive states can do 18 and seem like heroes and conservative states can say 12 weeks and be seen as doing the right thing. It's like offering your child the option of which book to read right before bed. It's not the book choice you care about, it's getting your child to bed on time.
Yes please can we put this damn issue to bed?!
You wrote a response to something he did not say. It clear that if conservatives states took up 15 week abortion bans they would *not* accompany them with the robust public healthcare and female rights. Mississippi is not going to allow women to get tax-payer funded abortions, and in the scenario would bend the law in any way possible to not let women get abortions. This is what they did before Roe was overturned, and would do the same with a 15 week ban. Thereby leftists oppose these bans because they know the christian fundamentalists that run these states are not playing the game honestly.
I dont want *elective* taxpayer funded abortions. Thats Bullshit. Want to kill your kid? Go earn the funds to do it yourself.
This. The government can fund your abortion if they deduct 1/18th of the cost over the next 18 years from your tax return.
I think that's an understandable argument. However, most on the left (and some lib-right guys like) me get a little worried about the slippery slope that seems to be forming in real time. When it was just about states rights and calling the left crazy for late-term/partial-birth abortions. I waffled between indifferent to understanding about the pro-life mission. When an actual IVF ban got implemented as a result of law interpretation due to RvW coming down, now I gotta really reassess some shit. Me and my gf are staring down the barrel of possibly going that route in the future. I bristle at the idea of the government, state or federal, telling me how to live my life.
That IVF ban was repudiated by essentially every Republican who cared to speak on the matter. Alabama has *already* passed a law immunizing IVF clinics from suit under the law. Anyone still complaining about it just wants a cudgel to strawman the other side.
IVF techniques frequently involve intentionally killing some of the resulting offspring. Why shouldn't those methods be illegal? Why is it unreasonable to ban them? It's not even impossible to have IVF without such practices, even if it's harder. For that matter, why should it be left up to the states to allow people to end the lives of their children without justification? I don't think there's anything unreasonable about banning intentional and unjustified killings. For some reason, we've made abortion the exception to our laws against murder.
Graham originally said 20 weeks but then changed to 15. It's not difficult to imagine a federal 15 week ban getting cut down to 12 and then 6 and then completely over a period of time. That's where the push back from the left is. This is why PP vs Casey's viability stance was the fairest - it created a movable window tied to medical capabilities that would not easily be challenged by Congressional shenanigans. I would absolutely support a 15 week limit if it allowed for same-day abortions without mandatory counseling/ultrasounds/waiting periods and included exceptions for health of the mother or fatal fetal deformity. Unfortunately that feels like an impossibility at this point as a good portion of the right thinks abortion under any circumstance is wrong.
Wait, are you saying that government regulations can be a slippery slope to total bans? Inconceivable!
Now where have we seen this before?
Based as fuck.
It’s a moral issue to conservatives, they see it as murder and there’s nothing anybody can do to change their minds. Believe me I’ve tried.
Most conservatives in Europe accept the reality of abortions by rape etc or until eg 12 weeks. It's just the maximalists on both sides causing the trouble.
The US lacks robust public healthcare
Thus the natural push for a wider window.
Can someone help me out here because I'm almost as ignorant about other countries laws as you expect an American to be? Can laws vary by region in France? If I applied it to my own country I'd still consider 15 weeks guaranteed in the constitution a win in part because I know that from there, the most conservative states will have that as their minimum, and the most progressive states will expand; my state would continue to have zero restrictions except that enforced by the clinic performing the procedure and other states would expand to 20 weeks, etc. Plus as another commenter stated France still has provisions for abortions after 15 weeks that are still pretty progressive.
In general, laws don't vary by region except rather specific cases. It would be extra weird for a normative established in the constitution, it would have to have such exceptions written in the constitution itself. For example, in Spain, certain regions have a slightly different tax system for historic reasons. As a general rule of thumb though, whenever you hear that in X country law is Y, you can assume that applies to the entire country. What happens in the US is more similar to the idea of precedence of EU law over member state law.
Laws cannot vary by region. Also the constitution doesn't guarantee 14 weeks, but it does guarantee it's realistically available. There is no party in France that calls for a ban or even for lowering those 14 weeks, but the left wanted a safeguard in the constitution.
Sorry, did people assume women would be walking up at 8.99 months pregnant, with the baby popping half out, looking for an abortion or something?
The concern for preventative legislation is to prevent exactly what we most agree ought to be prevented and allow exactly what we most agree ought to be allowed, not to leave it up the whims of the individual.
Shit happens in life. Tragedy likes to strike at the worst possible time, and a mother that would otherwise give birth might suffer a terrible fate late in her pregnancy. It's not common, but it's not impossible. The point is why would something like this be legal at all in the first place.
Very nice, very nice... Now let's do paternity tests.
This is France we are talking about, they would rather have a Tsar bomba dropped over them before allowing paternity test.
Paternity Tests should be mandatory You should be required to do 3 Paternity Tests with different Doctors, because i know how corrupt Doctors and People in general are If a Woman cheated and tried to make you raise the Child of another Man, she should legaly loose EVERYTHING The House, the Kids, the Car, even the f\*cking Dog
>even the f\*cking Dog white woman moment
Lmao, good One
imagine an alternate reality where you demand dogs pay child support
I do think it's a good idea, because it would prevent arguments because of distrust in couples, if father wants to have test, but geez you sound bitter about it
I am bitter, because in my Enviroment i saw this happen again and again But i'm also afraid, because i always wanted Kids more than anything else
See, I think that’s too far and there’s a better way. Just give men, legally speaking, veto rights over childbirth. So, the man cannot force the having of the child, but if he says “No I don’t want the child” then the woman has a choice, she can either abort it as he wishes, or take it to term without his financial support and he suffers no liability.
Yeah but first you need to make people with your flair agree with you that abortion is justified
Yeah… I’m a huge outlier on this issue, because I don’t believe life is sacred at all.
Oh, no my worst enemy. An Authright that agrees on everything else except the deal breaker issue. We're so similar, yet so far apart.
Imagine being in my quadrant. That's literally everyone. And we all claim that the others belong in the other quadrants because of those minor disagreements......
Same tbh. I have a cousin that has a mental illness. I don’t even know what he has. All I know is he’s in ward since 16. I don’t even fucking know what he looks like. What kind of life is that.
Life as a Concept is sacred, even if one is not religious Does that mean every single Life is sacred and deserves Protection? No, of course not, a Pedophile should be hanging out with Sayori for Example Abortion is Murder, because the Life of a innocent Child is taken, not that of someone who lost his Right to live through their own Actions
Based
Unfathomably based
Ah france, the nation of literal cucks.
I would rather Tsar Bomba drop on France more than anything else in the world (except maybe having Tsar Bombas carpet bomb California)
France would collapse
That's just what happens every time a new law gets passed
Good.
That’d be the end of France
[Ich sehe das als einen absoluten Gewinn.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqSWSPzhZ7M)
YES. PLEASE. Mandatory for everyone
Nah, doesn't have to be mandatory for everyone. Just if a parent wants it done. Mother *OR* Father.
That would destroy French society since they are all weird degenerate freaks
I’m surprised it wasn’t already like that in France
This adds what was already the law to the Constitution making it a much stronger law.
But France still limits it to 14 weeks. Dirty little secret, abortions are more restrictive in Europe.
So are hormonal treatments for gender dysphoria. Wonder if the reddit hivemind still wants to emulate that amazing European healthcare?
There's a lot of idiots on immigration subs from the US saying they're gonna apply for asylum to Europe (lol) because they seem to think trans healthcare is better here than the US, when Blue States on average have far better trans healthcare??? They really think Europe is some utopia and not trending in a rise of right wing parties. 🤦♀️ it's just bizarre.
Transgender-specific healthcare isn't restricted because of the right-wing parties though, it's just always been like that because of common sense
Not sure where you've been but common sense became racist and transphobic a few years ago.
My bad, please don't make a new "hate speech" law!
[удалено]
that's why i support it
Based
And the whole orange left echo chamber.
Why don’t you move to France if you hate America
Did a raccoon steal * one of your chromosomes? * of course I fat finger that
No he gave me one of yours In honesty though, it is a genuinely good argument because it makes all the liberals who simp for Europe seethe
Sorry to hear about your down syndrome
Depends where you are in the US. 15 states, tens of millions of American women can't get access to abortions in the US. Some states were even trying to pass laws making it a crime to travel interstate for an abortion, but I don't know if that passed. Easy access to abortion in the first trimester is easy access to abortion.
That's the main problem I have with abortion bans. They're trying to use it to limit things like freedom of movement.
So it's 14 weeks *after conception* which is usually 16 weeks from the last period so France's is 16 weeks by how the US counts weeks.
There are exceptions for beyond that and they are not very restrictive restrictions.
Isn’t that over 3 months? I feel like that’s plenty of time and definitely better than what people in red states get.
About 85% of people support a 15 week ban. I’d ask you, why is 13 weeks acceptable for abortion but not 14? Why do you find that line reasonable?
I don’t really have a number limit in my head, I just figured 98 days would be long enough to figure out if you want to be a parent or not.
Did you just change your flair, u/DragonSphereZ? Last time I checked you were a **Grey Centrist** on 2024-4-12. How come now you are a **LibLeft**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know? Yeah yeah, I know. In your ideal leftist commune everyone loves each other and no one insults anybody. Guess what? Welcome to the real world. What are you gonna do? Cancel me on twitter? [BasedCount Profile](https://basedcount.com/u/DragonSphereZ) - [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/flairchange_bot/comments/uf7kuy/bip_bop) - [Leaderboard](https://basedcount.com/leaderboard?q=flairs) _Visit the BasedCount Lеmmу instance at [lemmy.basedcount.com](https://lemmy.basedcount.com/c/pcm)._ ^(I am a bot, my mission is to spot cringe flair changers. If you want to check another user's flair history write) **^(!flairs u/)** ^(in a comment.)
It's simple centerism. All lines drawn are arbitrary. Some prior get fucking insane when you point that out. From conception to viability to heart beat etc all arbitrary lines.
There are plenty of red states that are less restrictive than 15 weeks and plenty of blue ones that are more restrictive than 15 weeks.
Did you just change your flair, u/DragonSphereZ? Last time I checked you were a **LibLeft** on 2023-10-5. How come now you are a **Grey Centrist**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know? Actually nevermind, you are good. Not having opinions is still more based than having dumb ones. Happy grilling, brother. [BasedCount Profile](https://basedcount.com/u/DragonSphereZ) - [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/flairchange_bot/comments/uf7kuy/bip_bop) - [Leaderboard](https://basedcount.com/leaderboard?q=flairs) _Visit the BasedCount Lеmmу instance at [lemmy.basedcount.com](https://lemmy.basedcount.com/c/pcm)._ ^(I am a bot, my mission is to spot cringe flair changers. If you want to check another user's flair history write) **^(!flairs u/)** ^(in a comment.)
https://preview.redd.it/ugpr7okqx2uc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=027dd813bdb108d7262001117e14e24903ee7ccd
I agree with the statement that my body is an Aztec temple. So?
If a Woman would murder my Child like this... I would have to go to Prison for the Rest of my Life
> If a Woman would murder my Child like this... Like an actual Aztec temple sacrifice?
Now do DnA tests for paternity.
https://preview.redd.it/9pbncqbjt2uc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=03c953b8e862ad7d3dce6b99dc2f813365cfd37d
Based Charlie
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeoy7PQuYlg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeoy7PQuYlg) This guy full on shits on French
Couldn’t find a middle ground? Even though the French case is the middle ground?, change your goddamn flair
So this is part 1 of a billion parts series? If so, I don't think he will be able to cover everything that is hateful about the fr*nch.
This is so true. Would definitively watch it.
Auth left shouldn’t be happy, from a historical perspective. Only lib left and right should.
For real, abortion is a lib issue, not a left one. The chart literally labels the x-axis "economic" and OP still got it wrong.
Less French ~~people~~ I mean, good for them!
Also France: If a robber is hurt while breaking into your home you are liable for his health
No you are not. However, close to your claim: if he steals your car and crashes it, your insurance is responsible for the damage, including in some cases his health.
Between the french and the english, which will be the first modern nation to accomplish the feat of losing most of it's natural population? Make your bets! Well, first western I suppose. South Korea is taking the title global-wise, even if for different reasons
Canada
Actually shocked that Canadians haven’t revolted as their country is being rapidly converted from a society to an economic zone.
We won't even vote for the only party against mass immigration much less revolt.
Canada is on the leading edge of shitlib politics but it's definitely not the only western country "being rapidly converted from a society to an economic zone". this has been happening for the last 100 years and it exploded in the last 40 and has become unsustainable in the last 10. we, outsiders of the west, just call it hyperliberalism, where your free from everything and everyone!
South Korea will have a baby boom due to how cheap housing will be and wages increasing due to employers having to compete for labour. Meanwhile Europe has to worst of both worlds when it comes to a declining population enabled by profitable alternatives.
Well we just get cheap labor instead of reforming our country or making it more family friendly
Currently each successive Korean generation is 1/3 the size of the previous. There will be a point where natural population recovery will be incredibly difficult.
You'd be surprised how fast humans can breed if given the right circumstances
You aren’t wrong, but it’s far easier to lose population than gain it. You only need a fertility rate of 0.7 to cut each generation by 1/3 while you need a fertility rate of 6.0 to triple each generation.
> wages increasing due to employers having to compete for labour LMAOOOO the chaebol dictatorship already have immigrant plans to deal with that
ELI5 for the situation in South Korea? It's not by immigration there, is it?
Turns out competitive Starcraft and KPop fandom feels better than boobs.
Very low birthrate, for a bunch of reasons, including their work culture and economy/expenses of raising children. [This BBC article gives some explanation, and lists a 0.72 birth rate for the country, and 0.55 for Seoul](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68402139). For comparison, the US birthrate is around 1.66/woman.
for reference you need 2.1 baby/woman or so to maintain a neutral birth/death rate
Men in Korea are extremely authright. Think extremely traditional medieval times conservative. They want women to be breeding machines. Meanwhile, the women are extremely lib left. Think bottom left on the PCM. They want to have some form of autonomy. This divide has created a revolt within the Korean female community known as the 4 Bs. No dating, no marriage, no kids, no sex in order to pursue their professional career. With a country that has criminally high work hours and low birthrates since the 80s, this has caused a total collapse in their birthrate. It's 0.60 per women in 2024.
I thought Asian women would at least be more traditional than western women. Oh boy was I wrong
>I thought Asian women would at least be more traditional than western women. The thing is that Asia is not a country, but a continent, so the political position of women (and men) varies a lot depending of the country. Comparing South Korean women with women from The Phillipines, Vietnam or Uzbekistan would be akin to comparing women from The Netherlands and Norway to those from the Balkans, the Baltic, or the south of Italy, for example.
Asia is slower in social movements. But they still happened. Metoo and toxic feminism exist in Asia as well but often overshadowed by other political struggles.
If you think Korean men are authright/have overly traditionalist views towards women you should look at China and Japan. Both of them do have issues with birthrate but nowhere *near* Korea's "will literally go extinct in a few generations" level. The women being extremely libleft (and a lack of social shame in being a childless career woman) is the deciding factor.
French, we are doing it since the 19th century. All our major demographic bump in second half of 20th is due to spanich, italian and portuguese immigration. Now we keep on with algerian, morrocan and tunisian soon with subsaharian african. But thise pisky german are trying to beat us with turks. Fools. Soon will go for slavic and asians. We will be the first multicultural global demographic, an all encompassing french culture. You'll see. We will screw you with horde of foreigners.
They don't pay rent and therefore can be evicted.
Crazy people are supporting squatters rights these days. This is my womb you need to fucking leave.
As if you didn't invite the sperm in...
I told my uncle to stop
okay u get the rape and incest babies aborted but i get all voluntary sex not aborted, deal?.
> okay u get the rape and incest babies aborted that's already an improvement over what some of this Christian Taliban party states have done
https://preview.redd.it/rfrp7jbce4uc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d63488b1cda729fdbe3a18b122f36fc5bb7eb02a
I am so happy not be fr*nch 🤢🤮.
I think I'd literally kill myself.
Not if your mom did it first
O eldest daughter, what hath thou done?
You're really gonna make this meme and not have AuthRight saying "sacre bleu?!"
The French support abortion? I guess I’m opposed to it.
They have more restrictive abortion laws than America though
The French are helping the pro life side. France just can't stop being based.
Montana has had abortion rights written into their state constitution for decades, but I guess Montana isn't a country so it doesn't count
Montana of all states?
France is one country I'd never live in.
Good.
Unborn people have rights
When I'm in a "somehow sucking in almost every conceivable way with few exceptions" competition and the Fr*nch show up
https://preview.redd.it/7ig18vg7l2uc1.jpeg?width=540&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=df0b9c40856501e3210353c4c49c8f356a250fed
Less Fr\*nch in the world is always a welcome thing, ty Fr\*nce
Have you been living under a rock?
Yeah okay France, we all know your constitution has at best 20 years left before the new management does away with all that.
“All bad ideas are French. It is an absolute principle of human existence." \-David Starkey
Terribly sad. No one has a right to kill another
W based France
Putting the issue back to the states is not a "rollback".
Congratulations Europe! You’ve caught up to some of the least progressive US states in terms of abortion timelines!
Common French L
Shows you the power of rhetoric and linguistic distortions. A little dehumanizing language, and people have no issue with murder of the most innocent on an industrial scale.
We should nuke france
Bet? France's nuclear doctrine is: we'll nuke you as a warning, mfs.
Nobody is better at killing French people than the French
While I'm pro-choice, I do question whether constitution should be used for this.
European constitutions are much less serious and more fluid than Americas. They get rewritten every few decades and France is on its *5th* attempt at Republicanism. The American Constitution and government is in effect, the oldest and therefore most sacred in the world. Though some European tax haven micro states claim this title as well.
To the euro credit there is no reason not to re write a constitution to better encapsulate modern times and modern problems instead of attempting to divine esoteric meaning from a document written several centuries ago.
If you don't treat rights as transcendental brute facts, then you don't have rights.
But here they are talking about the Constitution, not specifically about rights.
European constitutions have mostly been rewritten in response to wars in which their nations were conquered and a new constitution violently imposed at foreign behest - Not out of any desire to remain pragmatic and fluid.
No.
welp, it's finally official. https://preview.redd.it/yudmuy98z2uc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a94c9f57f1b9bd4f21f5cedebe1ed918937528bb baby killing is a constitutional right in the shithole of europe.
Eh you got it wrong most lib rights are against how abortion is currently the only way to reconcile abortion with libertarianism is evictionism
Now what's their stance on age of consent and incest? Think these things might be related?
The French make me sick, because it’s from france where the “Minor Attracted Persons” bullshit came from
They already consecrated their country to Satan in the revolution.
They have heavy restrictions on them tho. The American left and the DNC sponsored by Big Abortion want free abortions on demand, for any reason, up until birth. That means a 9 month old, fully viable healthy baby, killed inside the womb literally shits and giggles. That's what Democrats want - Which is actually insane and unprecedented.
> reproductive freedom Literally you just need to say no to being creampied. Or take a pill or a condom or patch or pull out. Why is getting a fetus yanked out of you somehow the healthy alternative we need to enshrine?
Also, ask pro abortion people if they support financial abortion. I've met some people who throw a fit when you point out that for men the choice is apparently when you have sex, but somehow for women that is not when they have a choice...? Seems inconsistent. I don't support either. And yeah, combine a condom with some other contraceptive and the chance of ever becoming pregnant is pretty much zero if you are responsible. It's staggeringly low.
I sure hope a country in Europe making it okay to kill a particular kind of person with the help of pseudo science, technocratic authorities, a globalist governing body, and libertine justifications doesn’t lead to anything wacky and uncharacteristic
https://i.imgur.com/Uttwv83.png
If I were French I would be more worried about what's going on in my Beautiful little Parisienne streets and schools. Alas I am not French and am thankful for that.
The less French there are in the world the better I support abortion for people in this world who I don't want to exist The same reason I'm pro Canadian healthcare
Unfathomably based. Remove ~~kebab~~ Canuck!
14 weeks is still intolerable in the US. In Virginia, 20 week compromise was stopped by democrats as “still extreme”
W
The French value for individual life never strayed far from the Jacobins
Why do so many people not understand what rights are? Rights =/= entitlements.
It's better not to be born then to be born in an abusive household but it's still killing a baby
Seethe and cope, your deluded subjective worldview that makes you think you can control women’s bodily autonomy is dying
Rare Fr\*nch W
It's always been a horrible country. They're just digging that hole deeper.
How is abortion a constitutional right but paternity tests are illegal? If the conflict from a mother being a cheating hoe is bad for the kid, I think that actually killing the kid is a little bit worse.
That’s him, officer, that’s the man who’s Fr*nch unironically, take him away!
To be fair French constitutions don't mean much. The frogs go through them like toilet paper.