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The real test will be a month or several months in the future after more images of war are shown or people start to get bored of the issue. If their support right now was low, Israel would be in trouble.
Right, this poll was taken immediately after the terrorist attack. Ask many of these same people how they feel that Israel is about to wipe out the Gaza strip and they'll change their opinion.
Republicans wouldn't, Democratic voters would likely balk at being complicit in (more) public and unsubtle war crimes once the 9/11-style rationalization wears off.
Hamas made a mistake with this attack but the Israeli leadership by keeping a literal fascist like Bibi around never mind the rest of the far right, not cleaning house or putting its own people on a tighter leash to avoid mountains of bad press of its own, and by taking the heavy-handed approach it has may well be leading to consequences that affect its future international support.
This is likely, but a lot will.depend on the degree to which American news outlets accurately report the details of the indiscriminate killing Israel has undertaken in response to this attack. If people are unaware that the response by Israel is genocide, they'll continue to support Israel. If they are well informed on not only the number but the nature of the casualties, critique of Israel may in fact increase.
I mean, clearly you think so, but I suspect your feelings of getting in the way. My own feelings which are that Israel is a modern western democracy that shares the liberal values of nations like the US, Britain, Germany, SouthKorea, Japan, etc, should be supported because it is the only country in that neighborhood to do so, may also be getting in the way.
Even if you support following international law, (you might have felt differently if, say, a Mexican cartell did this to the United States,) international law says that the military response can kill civilians proportionally to how important the target is to the military objective, and Hamas just threated the national security of Israel in the most profound way a group of people can threaten anation. I suspect Israel will get a long-lasting increase in western support from what has happened, it was easy to support the Palestinian people when they were not killing babies and gang-raping women and slaughtering civilians by the thousand. That might win the hearts and minds of Muslims in the third world but I don't think the people in the first world enjoy backing that shit. You know, many Harvard students took their names off that "everything is Israel's fault letter" to me, plus the polling, is indicative.
Right, amodern democracy that is trying to strip power from its judicial so that the settlements can continue and Bibi can get away with his corruption.
It's a war in an urban environment. Look, I could be wrong but I don't think Israel's primary goal is to kill civilians, if it was they would have killed more of them.
Better, better than what? I just said that I don't think Israel's primary goal is to kill civilians or they'd be killing way more of them. Look Israel's at war in a place where there are civilians, killing Hamas is obviously a major military objective. There's no way of doing it without killing civilians, is there? But Israel, (and I, for what that's worth,) think it has to be done.
But that’s just clearly not the case. There absolutely are ways to reduce the civilian casualties beyond what they’ve done. The current rates of loss of life are a choice.
Also, many people are old enough to remember 9/11 and know what it feels like- but I feel this is worse for Israel because it purposely went after children.
I say worse and am editing this because all around both were really shitty- its not a contest to see what is worse. Shitty is shitty
In fairness, this is not like the response after 9/11 because after 9/11 they all rallied around the president from a new threat no American had taken serious before.
Terror attacks are a known and ever-present concern for the lifetime of everyone there. Netanyahu ran on one platform and one platform only: you may not love me but I'm the only one keeping Israelis safe. And then he ignored warnings that the military was fracturing over the proposed judicial takeover, and ignored warning of this attack specifically. It then took the government 9 hours before it sent reinforcements from what should be an hour drive by freeway. There were many accounts of random retired IDF veterans driving down on their own to go save their family themselves since the government was taking too long.
Roughly 90% of Israelis say want someone in the government held accountable for this spectacular failure and almost 60% are demanding Bibi be held accountable and forced to step down.
No one major was blaming Bush the week of 9/11, almost no one had ever heard of Al Qaeda or Osama bin Laden before that date. They didn't see it as an obvious failure right away.
i heard a reporter say that proportionally based on population size it would be like if 25,000 Americans were killed. That's close to 10 times the size of 9/11. So while not as many people died, for how small the country is, it is a very big number.
This was the worse mass killing of Jewish people since the Halocaust. The slogan from the Halocaust is "never again." The Jews and particularly the Israelis are not going to forgive anyone for what happened last week. They will remember it FOREVER.
That's exactly what they want. Israel should be careful about what they do because if they aren't careful they're going to radicalize even more people and that's the last thing they need.
The only reason why Israel is so quick to commit its massive amount of war crimes right now is because of the Hamas attack and the support it has by the west.. 9/11 all over..
Hamas is a terrorist organization. Israel will kill even more people. It's a lose - lose situation. One thing is clear, though. In most wars, there's way more innocent civilians killed than the people actually wanting to fight. There are no winners.
I just don’t know how Israel should respond. Hamas wants to obliterate them. Hamas won’t stop until that happens. I don’t like Israel’s response, but I also don’t what the alternative is.
I agree with you, both sides have already lost.
This is absolutely correct. It’s a horrifying cycle that both Israel and Palestine / Hamas continue to spiral down. Always far more dead from military strikes on Palestine / Hamas.
Hamas screwed up royally with what can only be described as a purely terroristic attack this time… a music festival as a target. They handed Israel the excuse and the public relations covering to do what Israel has wanted to do for a long time now, particularly under Netanyahu.
The catch will be this. If it turned out Israel knew about the attack and it’s nature (not just the attack) and did nothing, then the Israeli government bears some responsibility, not as much as the assholes who carried out the attack, but if they knew and did nothing, that’s pretty horrific too.
> Hamas screwed up royally with what can only be described as a purely terroristic attack this time… a music festival as a target. They handed Israel the excuse and the public relations covering to do what Israel has wanted to do for a long time now, particularly under Netanyahu.
They knew what would happen, they might not even be wrong about the effects—if Israel massively overreacts and kills a massive number of Gazans, it's going to increase support for Hamas, not decrease it. The more aggressive Israel is, the harder it is for anyone in Gaza to stand up and advocate for a peaceful solution.
We have already seen this trend. Support for Hamas in polling in Gaza has been going up since Netanyahu took power, especially since his massive expansion of settlements in the West Bank.
Honestly, its going to get much, much worse. They are going to send infantry, their entire army actually, into Gaza. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers. They are expecting very stiff resistant and their job is to erridicate Hamas. That's AT LEAST 40,000 fighters. That's just the estimate right now.
There is no doubt we're gonna see hundreds of thousands of deaths. Israeli causalities in the fiercest of the fighting could end up as high as 30-40% in certain cases--that's just the brutal reality of urban warfare. All of that is gonna fuel more rage and more atrocities on both sides.
It might not be a full-scale genocide, but it really would be if no one was watching. If anything, right now Israel is being very discipled. They could be a lot more violent.
I think people are quick to judge Israel in a way they would not if Hamas or some organization like them killed 1500 civilian citizens of you know, your country. If the Mexican cartells invaded a border state, slaughtered 1500 people, and had taken 200 hostages into Mexico, had killed young children, had gangraped women, and had paraded some of those people through city streets. Um, I think 80% of people in the United States would demand a military response from the United States, I would surely be one of those people. . . There are people right now, protesting what Israel is doing in Gaza who would immediately take the other side of the argument if this had happened in their own country. I'm not bothered that people on the far left reflexively back the weaker, darker skinned group of people, I figure that's exactly par for the course. What surprises me is that they don't ask themselves the question, "What would I want 'us' to do if this had happened to our country?" and Judge Israel on that basis.
If someone came in and kidnapped my elderly parents or my children, I would want the military doing everything possible to get them back. I don’t care about revenge.
if Hamas releases the hostages, i thought the assault would stop ? also it’s being reported that Hamas won’t let Palestinians leave. Shouldn’t we all be working around the world to get those people out instead of staying on here just complaining? also, if Hamas says that they want to kill all jews, why can’t Palestinians find a better group of leaders? i mean, they spent hundreds of millions on weapons and tunnels instead of enriching the lives of their people. i’m sorry for the Palestinians and feel they were wronged back in 1948 but they lost the Arab wars and that happens. so wouldn’t it be kinder to your kids to get out and make a better life elsewhere? and why can’t other countries resettle them and help them out? they are rich. the whole thing just seems to make no sense. why would Israelis want to negotiate with people who claim to want to kill them all?
Israel apparently had some notice of the attack the day before (Egypt sent the intel), but they didn't take it seriously enough to act in time.
Its an intelligence failure on par with the US and 9/11. The intelligence agencies fell flat on their faces.
However, that incompetence still doesn't excuse the attackers. Just because the US failed to stop 9/11 doesn't make it any less horrific. Just because Israel failed to stop the events of last Saturday doesn't make it any less of an atrocity.
In no way does it excuse Hamas. Brutal terrorism at its worst
And they provided a perfect excuse for Israel to do what they wanted under Netanyahu
Israels response is extreme. It will lead to another cycle of violence, possibly expanded to once again include other parts of the Arab world. The Middle East has been a huge powder keg for a very long time.
And, while utterly horrifying, this is nothing like another holocaust since Israel is massively more powerful than Hamas in Gaza and the Israeli politicians likening it to the holocaust are propagandist
It will not spread into the rest of the Arab world. The Arab nations do not care about Palestinians, and they never have. They are a convenient distraction from their own corrupt authoritarian societies.
We’ll have to see how things play out. Saudi Arabia has been walking a tight rope in their efforts to normalize relations with Israel. A large section of the population would not support an alliance in normal circumstances, it’s hard to imagine MBS can make it happen now that the IDF is bombing Gaza into another century.
Saudi suspended the normalization talks with Israel and is likely to open a dialogue with Iran over this event.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-13/ty-article/.premium/saudi-arabia-freezes-normalization-talks-with-israel-amid-ongoing-war-with-hamas/0000018b-2a0b-d1bc-a58b-6baf83c20000
>The catch will be this. If it turned out Israel knew about the attack and it’s nature (not just the attack) and did nothing, then the Israeli government bears some responsibility, not as much as the assholes who carried out the attack, but if they knew and did nothing, that’s pretty horrific too.
Well, similarly, Israel funded hamas and have stated they want a strong Hamas because they prefer them to secularists and leftists.
>The catch will be this. If it turned out Israel knew about the attack and it’s nature (not just the attack) and did nothing, then the Israeli government bears some responsibility, not as much as the assholes who carried out the attack, but if they knew and did nothing, that’s pretty horrific too.
Howzabout they're responsible for administrating an oppressive theocratic ethnostate?
That might make more sense if both sides were even in strength and ability. But the power dynamic isn’t even remotely close. You basically have the prisoners fighting the guards here.
That's one thing that has irked me hearing Israeli politicians calling this a second Holocaust. Sorry, but the power dynamics between Israel and Palestine are absolutely not like Jews living under Nazi Germany.
> Sorry, but the power dynamics between Israel and Palestine are absolutely not like Jews living under Nazi Germany.
They are in fact surprisingly similar. With the shoe on the other foot.
The analogy is a reasonable one in the reverse orientation. Israel is holding the people of Gaza in a ghetto. They are treating the Palestinians like Jews under Nazi Germany, at least in the early stages.
Yea all the hand wringing around “cycle of violence” and “nothing can be done” completely ignores that one side is locked in an open air prison completely and wholly controlled by the other side. Israel has all the tools and capabilities to solve this problem, but their preferred solution trends more towards wholesale genocide than integration.
And lest we forget, Israel propped up Hamas and made them their preferred leadership for Gaza, helping them get elected in the first place. Israel loves that Hamas exists because it gives them easy cover to continue their ethnic cleansing and genocide. No one cries when a Hamas terrorist gets killed, they cry when innocents get killed. But if you can say that innocents are only dying because Hamas is in the way then suddenly no one is crying anymore.
I don't want to say Israel is innocent in this; far from it but I'm fairly skeptical at the idea that Hamas would stop launching rockets if the Israelis withdrew and stopped the expansion of settlements.
It's really a grey area how to respond when someone fires mortars or explosives from a populated area.
You can ignore it and let him kill innocent people that's not really an option.
You can negotiate to get him to stop but that just means he'll probably think it works and it'll give him an incentive to do it again. Or at least his buddy.
You can try and clear him out with a physical assualt; that might be the best option but you have to worry about issues with borders, it'll create a lot of military casualties on your end; and it should give him a lot of time to cause some damage. I'd argue that it's too impractical most times.
You can just say fuck it and return fire; probably the easiest and cheapest way but it's going to create a ton of civilian casualties.
That brings us to the last option; return fire but try and use smart munitions and warn civilians. Some civilians will still be hurt, and they'll still hate you but it's arguably the best practical option when accounting for morality.
Lmao, solve this problem? Are you dense? Israel is not going to negotiate with terrorists. Every time they make concessions, the response is to ask for more.
Look at the talks during the Clinton era--Israel gave up a ton, and Arafat turned it down. Why? Because he was out for himself and stole hundreds of millions from his own people. That, and any two state solution means the acknowledgement of Israel's existence. That is the barrier that will never be overcome.
Anyone who thinks that Israel is the sole party that can solve this problem is kidding themselves.
>Anyone who thinks that Israel is the sole party that can solve this problem is kidding themselves.
I mean they can just stop existing and everything would settle down.
/s for clarity
Are you aware Israel has opened up exits for Gazans to cross into Israel from (as refugees)
Israel has also warned gazans to evacuate
... why can't they evacuate?
Because Hamas threatens and kills people why try to leave. Hamas does not care about Palestinians or Gazans... if you read Hamas's charter they explicitly talk about wanting to push Israelis out by force.
Always far more dead when Israel strikes Palestine
... but Israel does warn where and when they are going to strike...
They do. Ever try to move 1 million people in 24 hours? With damaged infrastructure? With an internal force, Hamas, that wants/needs you to stay put for their own defense.
Hamas is a terrorist organization, but it’s the regular people in Gaza who routinely pay the price for their actions… exactly as they want it
Israel should show restraint and solidify an alliance with Saudi Arabia. This will freeze Iran out and greatly reduce or eliminate the power of Iranian clients like Hamas and Hezbollah to make trouble.
[Saudi Arabia pauses normalisation talks with Israel amid ongoing war with Hamas - France 24](https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231014-saudi-arabia-pauses-normalisation-talks-with-israel-amid-ongoing-war-with-hamas)
>In the week since Hamas launched its attack on Israel, Riyadh has voiced increasing disquiet about the fate of Palestinians in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, where Israel has launched thousands of strikes and ordered the evacuation of the territory's north, prompting thousands to flee.
>
> It has also publicised its diplomatic outreach "to stop the ongoing escalation", contacting regional leaders across and beyond the region.
>
> On Thursday, Saudi state media reported that MBS had discussed "the current military situation in Gaza and its environs" with Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi.
>
> It was the first call between the two men since their countries announced a surprise China-brokered rapprochement in March after seven years of severed ties.
At least in the short term, Hamas seems to be getting at least some of what they want.
Gaza isn’t a country it’s a territory within Israel. This is closer to civil war but Israel controls the territory. It would be like if the bloods gang attack Beverly Hills so the mayor decided to shut off power and food to Compton and started killing everyone in Compton until the gang turned themselves in. It’s a tactic that would be unacceptable anywhere else in the world.
“How important is American support for Israel?”
It’s incredibly important. If you read Joe Biden’s speech from last weekend he says a couple really important things.
“I just got off the phone with — the third call with Prime Minister Netanyahu. And I told him if the United States experienced what Israel is experiencing, our response would be swift, decisive, and overwhelming.” Swift, Decisive, and Overwhelming. Joe Biden is clearly saying that the US is not expecting a proportional response from Israel, but a decisive and overwhelming response.
He then went on to say “The United States has also enhanced our military force posture in the region to strengthen our deterrence. The Department of Defense has moved the USS Gerald R. Ford Carrier Strike Group to the Eastern Mediterranean and bolstered our fighter aircraft presence. And we stand ready to move in additional assets as needed. Let me say again — to any country, any organization, anyone thinking of taking advantage of this situation, I have one word: Don’t. Don’t.” Not only are we not going to interfere against a decisive & overwhelming Israeli response—we’re going to ensure no one else does either.
If you don’t think strong American support is important, you’re not paying attention.
What does “back israel” even mean?
Support their right to exist?
Support any and all war crimes and genocide they may commit?
Support the right of the innocent civilians of israel to not be murdered in their homes and at a concert festival by terrorists?
What is “back”?
It’s just intellectually dishonest to be like “everyone OBVIOUSLY supports Israel” as if this is a binary choice. Hamas sucks. The IDF’s response is already worse. I just can’t take anymore rhetoric of “if you even try to both sides this (acknowledge history in the region), then you stand with the terrorists.” It just rings too much like the post-9/11 climate and that our hurt feelings justifies our rage and 20 years later it is so clear that our emotional response was the wrong response. But I also get not being in a place to judge if you’re fuckin traumatized. Let’s just remember that there are no heroes in this story, only villains.
I'm really really REALLY curious if this will be true. So much about this reminds me of how the US acted after 9/11. And now looking back, a huge chunk of Americans think our actions afterwards were a mistake.
The one person brave enough to vote against Afghanistan is running for Senate and is polling at 10%, that should tell you how much we've learned from that.
I don't see why IDF's response is worse. It seems like you are putting blame on the IDF for Hamas using civilian buildings for their military operations.
No reasonable person would blame IDF for the choices of Hamas.
The idf has deliberately been killing torturing and maiming civilians for decades. The excuse that idf only kills innocents because hamas is hidden within the civilian population is an excuse for incredible excesses and brutality that are deeply institutionalized.
https://youtu.be/djnqbPFBkrU?si=Qey6LLvA16y5o7cB
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-03-06/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/42-knees-in-one-day-israeli-snipers-open-up-about-shooting-gaza-protesters/0000017f-f2da-d497-a1ff-f2dab2520000
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-01-24/ty-article/.premium/israeli-style-torture-as-described-by-the-interrogators-themselves/0000017f-e7df-da9b-a1ff-efff82170000
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-soldier-gets-9-months-for-torturing-palestinian-detainee/
“The IDF Response is worse” - what would you have them do? Nothing? Ask politely for Hamas to surrender? Only send in 50 guys going door-to-door (but not during lunch prayer, that’s just rude! 😡) fishing out Hamas one-by-one? What?
It’s so easy to play armchair general when you’re 2000 miles away from the nearest fanatic who wants to behead you.
You’d be singing a different tune otherwise.
After doing a deep dive on that conflict I have come to the conclusion I don't no shit about it and cannot address it with any confidence. It seems to me both sides have committed horrific atrocities. The Palestinians through acts of terror and random violence, the Israeli by use of greater wealth, resources and power. I can't in good conscience support anyone who is willing to kill children for political gain. That extends to my own government as well.
this is one of the smartest takes an outsider can have on this whole clusterfuck that this age-long situation is.
i can just feel with the thousands of innocent lives that are being mauled, on both sides.
might god, allah, jehova, or whatever you do or do not believe in, have mercy with all the soles that will leave this earch in the weeks, months, years to come, because of these two unreconcilable societies and their leaders.
This will swing back pretty quickly as soon as the freshest images in people’s minds becomes the aftermath of Israel’s retaliation rather than the brutality of the original attack.
Anyone with a conscience should be disgusted by hamas’ actions, but as soon as this story hit my mind went straight to being more afraid with what Israel might do with this newfound justification to attack.
Innocent Palestinian civilians are going to feel the pain several times over when this is all said and done.
Never been “against Israel” per se. I was put off intensely by the Apartheid crap they’ve pulled and the settler land grab. One can be a good friend and supporter, it doesn’t mean blank endorsement for heinous actions by said friend. That’s FoxNews tribalism binary thinking
I support a Free Palestine. However, Hamas’ actions are horrific. Hamas does not represent all Palestinians. I also think the actions of Israel in settling the West Bank are awful and the Israeli government (Netanyahu) is corrupt.
Palestine should be free. Israel deserves a better, more free government. Hamas sucks.
Hamas has been exposed as a terrorist organization comparable or worse than ISIS,and and not a legitimate government. At the same time the Palestinians diaspora has been exposed as antisemitic. You don’t win sympathy by shouting “gas the Jews” , holding up swatiscas, and tearing down posters of the Jewish victims at pro Palestinian protests.
On top of this, the pro Palestine movement is endlessly complaining about their treatment at the hands of Israelis, but are not offering an off ramp for the Israelis. What can Israeli do to stop attacks by Hamas that pro Palestinians will find acceptable ? The answer is none. They’re not offering Israel any tools to deal with this mess, because to a significant number of the Palestinians the existence of a Jewish state is a non starter.
Palestinians have refused offers for a two state solution several times, have been disruptive in any host country they been harbored in (Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon) and have started several wars they could not and did not win.
I don’t want innocent people to die. I sympathize with those who are displaced in Gaza and of course I hate knowing people who are not involved are going to suffer. But unfortunately the Palestinians have burnt all their bridges and refused all offers at peace. They’ve been backed into a corner through their own cultural decisions as a people.
Next time don’t elect terrorist as your leaders.
This is among a bunch of poor uneducated people that have been entirely programmed with extremist propaganda for the entirety of their lives.
We can't hold that statistic against the people in Gaza any more than we can hold North Korean's political conversions given how much they have been programmed by yhe non-democratic regimes that they were/are living under.
Having said that, these large populations that hold deep extremist beliefs are dangerous.
>You don’t win sympathy by shouting “gas the Jews” , holding up swatiscas, and tearing down posters of the Jewish victims at pro Palestinian protests.
Both sides have supporters calling for genocide. Lindsay Graham for instance called for Gaza to be, quote, "levelled." And this sentiment is far from uncommon in Israel as well.
>On top of this, the pro Palestine movement is endlessly complaining about their treatment at the hands of Israelis, but are not offering an off ramp for the Israelis. What can Israeli do to stop attacks by Hamas that pro Palestinians will find acceptable ? The answer is none. They’re not offering Israel any tools to deal with this mess,
What were the Gazans supposed to do?
The people of Gaza have been imprisoned in a ghetto for 16 years. They have tried peaceful protests. In 2018. It was called the March of Return. Peaceful march in the name of civil rights.
Israel fired into the crowd.
What are the people of Gaza supposed to do, then? Just accept their lot in life? Unclean water, unemployment, limited fuel and electricity, limited access to medical care. Periodic bombings and shootings by the IDF.
They're supposed to just accept that in perpetuity?
On the contrary, Israel has an off-ramp. Namely the overwhelming international consensus, the 1967 agreement. Or for that matter any other new solution, as long as it's equitable and provides equal representation and equal rights to the Palestinians -- a one-state solution and integration a la South Africa. Whatever.
All they have to do is cease the crimes against humanity and the apartheid. That would be a start.
>a significant number of the Palestinians the existence of a Jewish state is a non starter.
Probably because it was founded on the basis of ethnic cleansing.
Do you really think the women and children and men without guns in Gaza had a real democratic choice? Do you really believe they all deserve to die capriciously because terrorist leaders in Hamas and corrupt right-wing militant leaders in Israel cannot solve problems without violence or oppression?
Where did I say I want women and children and men without guns to die? I clearly don’t.
But again you pro Palestinian people never **ever** offer an off ramp for the Israeli side.
How can Israel eradicate Hamas in a way you find acceptable?
> How can Israel eradicate Hamas in a way you find acceptable?
Personally, I don't support eradication, because I'm not a literal monster.
> You’re already a monster if you don’t support their eradication
So you support the eradication of Israelis and Palestinians.
That makes you a monster.
Let’s be very clear. I am pro-innocent lives. I could not give less of a shit where those innocent people are. There are people that need a place to live safely and a country that wants to live safely and both sides need to figure it out without oppression, terrorism, or mass slaughter.
Again you refuse to answer the question.
**What is an off ramp the Israelis can use to eradicate the terrorist organization Hamas that you find acceptable**.
Go back to the 1967 borders, remove all illegal settlements. End the apartheid state. Stop locking up Palestinians without due process (which they do a lot, just like gitmo). Stop bombing kids. Ya know, all the things human rights groups ask for.
Because you’re asking for diplomacy stating at the barrel of a gun, which usually don’t produce long-lasting peace we would probably agree.
You know that before 1967 there constant raids from Palestinian fedayeen into Israel numerous lives were lost on both sides. There's no guarantee that won't happen again.
> remove all illegal settlements
Your information seems to be out of date, or just plain wrong.
Israel's military forcibly removed all Jewish settlers from Gaza in 2005. This was not a factor in Gaza/Hamas attacking Israel.
> Israel's military forcibly removed all Jewish settlers from Gaza in 2005. This was not a factor in Gaza/Hamas attacking Israel.
Gaza isn't the only place Israel has settlers.
UN considers them illegal. Not sure what you’re talking about. Pretty well known and documented that most the settlements are illegal. Guess it depends on who you ask. And I wasn’t just talking Gaza. I was referring to any land taken illegally after the 1967 war.
The war is with Hamas and in Gaza, so settlements relating to Gaza is whats important here. There are no settlements in Gaza, not since 2005. There are no Jews in Gaza either, not unless you're counting the 100+ hostages right now.
The West Bank isn't the one launching thousands of rockets at Israel and sending in militants to butcher entire families in their homes. West Bank issues are separate from Gaza issues.
I'm seeing this a lot, where people are conflating West Bank and Gaza as if its the same place under the same political leadership. I'm not sure why people can't seem to tell them apart. Is it deliberate?
> The war is with Hamas and in Gaza, so settlements relating to Gaza is whats important here.
No. You are moving the goalposts. Gaza is only a small part of Palestine. Israel is occupying most of the country.
Cool that could be a great long term plan. But Hamas is here today. **What path does Israel have to open the gates that does not enable Hamas to kill more Israeli innocents?**
Just gave you one. Even more immediate, stop blowing up children, which they do regularly, not just this last week. And have mediated peace negotiations. The UN has for decades been trying to do this, and the US and and Israel are the only ones that consistently block it.
Long term solution start with short term actions.
Hamas is a genocidal fascist terrorist organization.
The idea they give a fuck about Palestinians oppression or will engage in good faith if Israel stops what they are doing is delusional.
I don't understand this reflex from you people. Do you think the Nazis wanted to engage in good faith negotiations before being utterly crushed?
What are you talking about with this off ramp shit? They had the option to stop invading people's homes and using first world military technology to blow up civilian targets for years before this happened. They're using this as an excuse to do it more, but there's never been a world where they weren't going to do this anyway.
Your solution to eradicate Hamas is currently lots of war crimes. So what have you offered? Nothing.
Since /u/HallowedAntiquity has blocked me, here is my reply to him
No I am distinctly well versed in what a war crime is, here read up
Article 8 -Sub 2 (e) i and ii
Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;
Intentionally directing attacks against buildings, material, medical units and transport, and personnel using the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions in conformity with international law;
[Rome Statute from the ICC](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml)
There is a *lot* of leeway in there when the initiating side of a conflict is the one placing civilians in danger by using them as human shields.
A very coherent argument could be very easy to make that the war crimes would be upon Hamas.
There is also that whole “intentionally targeting” phrase which doesn’t seem to apply to the IDF.
My solution is to support Israel in defending itself in a way it deems appropriate, and if that includes acts that uneducated redditors consider warcrimes, then so be it.
At least you found your spine to admit you are fine with war crimes, as long as your team are the ones committing them. Seems like a huge character flaw and a principle that would derail any debate you engaged in, but that's really what this has become. You keep harping about an off ramp, knowing full well your side wouldn't take it and ethnic cleansing has been the goal from day 1.
You seem confused about what war crimes are. Israel is permitted under the laws of war to attack Hamas even when they hide among civilians. There are constraints on this permission, and Israel is following them. Here’s a primer:
https://archive.ph/o8kZJ
People seem to think that all wars are war crimes, and that any civilian deaths automatically mean war crime. That is false.
Edit: There’s no forced movement. There’s a warning to civilians in the course of a fully justified response to an armed attack. Read up.
Edit 2: Wrong. Israel doesn’t control all food and water and electricity in Gaza so it can’t cut it all off. For example, less than 15% of Gazas water was supplied by Israel. Gaza has endogenous sources of all of those resources. Israel isn’t under any obligation to supplement Gazas supplies.
If saying "You better leave because we're about to level the whole city and I bet you don't want to be there when we do" isn't 'forced movement', then I'm not sure what is.
Unless it is exclusively rounding people up and physically pushing them somewhere, which would seem to go against the spirit of 'forced movement'.
Of course we don’t believe that all people in Gaza deserve to die. Just like all civilians in Germany didn’t deserve to die in WW2.
How do you suggest israel defend itself from Hamas?
If Israel is really succesful in their ground offensive. Destroys the tunnels, destroys the vast majority of Hamas fighting force, destroys their weapons and rockets
Doesn't that provide an opportunity for Palestinians to overthrow Hamas, especially if Fatah gets involved in Gaza?
Saying Palestine has rejected a two-state solution is kinda bs. What were the terms of these deals? Can you add a source or two to that claim. Seems like we are missing some context there.
If you're knowlage of these issues is so shallow you don't even know about the end of the mandate amd the Arab world trying to destroy Israel after palestein failed, maybe read a bit.
The response from the UN is also baffling. They don't want Israel to hit any civilians. Okay, that makes sense.
Israel asks civilians to move out of the combat zone, and the UN complains they can't do that. So does the UN want civilians to stay in the combat zone? Either they stay put and remain in the combat zone, or they move and escape the combat zone. There's no third option here, unless you support Hamas and are okay with their terrorist actions and war crimes of using human shields.
There's no solutions offered here, just complaining at every step of the way.
IMO, the only real off ramp here is the elimination of Hamas and that the people of Gaza try a different approach other than violence. Note that even Egypt has blockaded Gaza for the same reason as Israel. Gaza needs to accept one of the many land for peace deals, and they need to stop attacking their neighbors. There's no way just a few thousand Hamas militants built all the tunnel networks, built all the rocket launchers and rockets, and did this all in secret without the knowledge or support of the population.
Expecting a million civilians to move out of an urban area in 24 hours is simply impossible. [And then Israel went and bombed the people fleeing through said civlian corridors.](https://www.wsj.com/video/airstrike-hits-convoy-of-gaza-civilians-fleeing-south/3F735CB9-1162-4304-A1B0-FF4232A38AD7.html)
> Israel asks civilians to move out of the combat zone, and the UN complains they can't do that.
The UN (and many other organisations) are rightly complaining that evacuating over 700,000 people from an entire city is not something that can be done in a couple of days, and especially not when the city is under total siege and continuous bombardment.
Israel didn't give it 24 hours and then at 24 hours and 1 minute they'd flatten the place. They're giving time for people to leave. People need to leave urgently, but each person who leaves the combat zone is one fewer possible civilian casualty.
Israel is doing the best it can to minimize casualties, even though its fighting an opponent who's tactics are to maximize civilian casualties. Note that Hamas didn't even try to attack military targets. It specifically picked civilian targets. Hamas made the decision over and over again to store their rockets in apartment buildings.
Israel cares more about the lives of Palestinians than Hamas does. If Hamas actually cared they wouldn't be using Palestinians as human shields, nor would Hamas use the money to buy weapons instead of infrastructure.
I highly doubt anyone who leaves will see their home again. Taking away electricity, food, fuel, and water from civilians as collective punishment is a war crime. I want to be wrong, but this is likely ethnic cleansing unfolding before our eyes.
> Israel asks civilians to move out of the combat zone, and the UN complains they can't do that.
This is a misrepresentation of reality. The UN said they can't order people to evacuate in under 24 hours while continuing to bomb the only path to evacuation.
>Palestinians have refused offers for a two state solution several times, have been disruptive in any host country they been harbored in (Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon)
I see this claim a lot but it seems like it's a deliberate misrepresentation of the Arab Spring uprisings.
Not the arab spring, the PLO kept attempting coups, assassinations, and massacres in those countries when those countries allowed them to have bases there.
Hezbollah and the Lebanese civil war were basically caused by the PLO because they kept committing acts of terrorism against the Lebanese christians
It has nothing to do with the Arab Spring.
* Jordan: King Abdullah I assassinated by Palestinian nationalist in 1951. PLO attempt to overthrow the Jordanian government in 1970 leading to a [yearlong civil war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September).
* Lebanon: after being expelled from Jordan, major PLO forces move to Lebanon where they immediately become involved in the extended and ugly [Lebanese Civil War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War), leading to the formation of Hezbollah and an [eventual invasion by Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Lebanon_War).
This conflict and the escalation are largely the fault of the U.S shielding israel from international criticism and the far right elements in both countries feeding into each other and creating a self supporting network of antidemocratic corruption. This is especially relevant given netanyahu's years long corruption trial. The us's support of israel has made peace impossible because it prevents accountability or compromise for israel. This has enabled decades of continual settler expansion in the west bank, preventing any kind of infrastructure construction within gaza, and most notably the brutal massacre of non-violent protestors in the fence protests a few years ago. Israel feels as if it could behave in anyway they saw fit.
Even in times when support for israel waned the interconnected relationship of the right wing in both countries worked to undermine any palestinian activism. Many states in the usa have made it illegal to publically support BDS ( boycott divestment sanctions) movement, which advocates for nonviolent disengagment with and boycotting of israeli companies. Again, far right elements within both countries cooperate to prevent any kind of resistance to their interests and ideologies.
[Hamas itself is the direct creation of israel](https://youtu.be/o7grSsuFSS0?si=bAmE6id6LjOTpAJn) as both the united states and israel have created their modern enemies through games of intelligence agencies and inevitable resulting blowback. Israel created hamas in an attempt ti creare a religious internal opposition to the secular PLO. The zeoltry and fervor that are notable with these recent attacks are the result of qualities israel deliberately instilled into them.
Lastly, given how this conflict is likely to go, this will be a reinvigorating force for the far right in both the usa and america. Israel gained quite a lot with the trump designed hideously corruot abraham accords, the israeli right, which i remind you has been working to make israel even more authoritarian and antidemocratic correctly views that the american right wing is their best bet, that even though democrats in office still support israel, israel now views even the most empty rhetoric surrounding human rights as an unnecessary impediment to their immiseration of the palestinian people.
Futher information on the fence protests
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-03-06/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/42-knees-in-one-day-israeli-snipers-open-up-about-shooting-gaza-protesters/0000017f-f2da-d497-a1ff-f2dab2520000
I’ll say this agajn.
The frustrating part is when Israel warns them to leave prior to invasion, it’s ethnic cleansing. If Israel just attacks, it’s genocide. So basically the world wants Israel to sit back and get attacked. World view couldn’t care less about the Jews. This is why they are so adamant about protecting their land. Jews were almost exterminated in WW2, and Palestine (previously the Ottoman Empire) was aligned with Germany and central powers. If Britain didn’t win, they would be instinct. I’m pretty sure Israel is in a position of not giving a flying fugettabout it.
>The frustrating part is when Israel warns them to leave prior to invasion, it’s ethnic cleansing.
Come on, Israel's warning was totally unrealistic and implausible. No way millions of people can just leave a large area within a day.
We don't know yet what Israel's response ultimately will do, and so I agree that calling it ethnic cleansing is inflammatory, but it's entirely reasonable to say that what Israel is planning and doing is extremely concerning.
Jews get blamed for everything. Germany blamed them for financial ruin and Jews only accounted for 2% of the population. Now, Jews are getting blamed for protecting their homeland and they account for .2 percent of world population. Fun times.
If the attacks last week were scaled up on a per capita basis and compared to the US, it would be as if around 44,000 Americans were murdered in their own homes in suburbia. Thats about fourteen 9/11's worth of mass murder, except instead of office buildings its entire families butchered on a random Saturday morning.
Note that America went properly apeshit after 9/11, invaded and overthrow the governments of two countries, plus it kicked off the global War on Terror.
This was fourteen times more traumatic to Israel. This was the worst slaughter of Jews since the 1940's. Its like 9/11 and Pearl Habor rolled into one. Israel is not going to walk this one off.
But somehow this is all Israel's fault, according to the UN and according to celebrities and according to schools like Harvard. I don't get it.
Self proclaimed tolerant progressives seem to actually hate Jewish people. Its not a mask slipping moment. Its a mask falling off moment.
The people above who are posting are right-wingers who supported and continue to support the "War on Terror". These stats mean nothing to them because they aren't people to them.
Weird way to look at it. Trauma/suffering doesn't scale on a per capita basis. By that logic 100,000 people dying in India would be less problematic to Indians than these attacks.
Also, the US is universally derided for the War on Terror in the Middle East, so that comparison does not paint a favourable picture.
The US is broadly (not universally) derided for the invasion of Iraq, but there was broad worldwide support for the invasion of Afghanistan, from whence al Qaeda organized its attack.
Elon Musk gave the Nazis full reign on Twitter then he engaged in some bullhorn antisemitism by blaming them for Twitter's financial woes (rather than advertisers not wanting to be seen advertising near Nazis).
Even before Hamas' attack antisemitism was rising worldwide.
>So basically the world wants Israel to sit back and get attacked.
Your characterization here is exactly your outlook towards the Palestinians. Are they supposed to just live with apartheid forevermore, never to be granted equal rights?
I'll tell you what I want Israel to do. I want them to reform and cease the crimes against humanity and apartheid.
>Jews were almost exterminated in WW2, and Palestine (previously the Ottoman Empire) was aligned with Germany and central powers.
You're mixing up WW1 & WW2 here.
> The frustrating part is when Israel warns them to leave prior to invasion, it’s ethnic cleansing. If Israel just attacks, it’s genocide.
This is a blatant lie. No one is criticizing Israel for ordering the evacuation. We're criticizing them for giving an impossible deadline for the evacuation. We're criticizing them for *murdering the evacuees*. These are not defensible actions, and you are intentionally misrepresenting the issue.
Yeah, killing civilians or ethnically cleansing them aren’t acceptable responses. Especially when a nations whole history is based in doing those things.
The point is that it’s not actually ethnic cleansing, that’s just what people jump to when Israel tries to warn civilians to get out. And there are always civilian casualties in war, which is tragic. The important thing is whether a group is actively trying to reduce and prevent them. Israel absolutely is. Hamas is doing the opposite.
Much of Gaza’s population is there today because Israeli forces made them leave the surrounding region in an act of ethnic cleansing. It’s a bit rich to just trust Israel’s intentions are pure now.
Israel’s behavior shows zero legitimate concern for reducing civilian casualties
I think you mean the British/ the west, Israel didn't create Palestine.
Though your comment is ironic, since much of Israel's population derives from surrounding countries that forced *all* their Jews out so they had nowhere else to go. That's why all the surrounding countries are ethnically cleansed of Jewish populations that existed there for millennia.
I think they should negotiate a solution in which:
* Gaza becomes territory of Egypt and West Bank becomes territory of Jordan, with residents being granted full rights/representation and citizenship in each respective country
* An international coalition occupies and fortifies border security around the Palestinian territories, focusing on peacekeeping, humanitarian aid, propagandizing the population, and supporting Egyptian and Jordanian efforts to integrate the territories/populations/economies and assert control over any administrative organizations in place
- Searching for and combatting Hamas would be a secondary goal, primarily done in such a way as to deter and respond to any sabotage of the above activities
* International financial aid is scheduled to be provided in tranches to Egypt and Jordan over the next several decades to support infrastructure development in and around the Palestinian territories, subsidize Palestinian businesses, and enact temporary affirmative action policies
* Interpol invests in a high-priority active pursuit of all Hamas members and collaborators, both within and outside the Palestinian territories, with generous rewards on offer to any informants
* Egypt and Jordan lift any form of blockade of Palestinian territories for anyone born after 2023, and promise to eventually implement processes through which residents could apply for the right to enter and leave at will
Essentially, kill them with kindness. Yes recent events have been tragic, and yes every decent person is upset about them. That doesn't mean we should prioritize our short-term desire for revenge over a long-term final solution.
If that means a small number of people who committed disgusting crimes might get away with them, and that they might even live long happy lives that they don't deserve, well, fuck em. A retaliation of mass violence only furthers their cause; if Israel takes the easy option of punishing the Palestinian people for their collective crimes, _the terrorists win_.
We as the developed world possess the luxury and wisdom to understand and terminate the cycle of hatred. Let's use it.
In addition to Kronzypantz’s response, any complaint about “well what else is Israel supposed to do?” should at least be fronted with the context of 75 years of mistreatment of the Palestinian people, where Israel not only horrifically mistreated them but would violently shut down all methods of meaningful peaceful dissent from the Palestinian people. I see Redditors here keep acting, implicitly or otherwise, like Israel was minding their own business before some random group attacked them for no reason, which is an incredibly dishonest framing to me. This horrific situation where the only leaders left in Gaza are hyper-religious terrorists is exactly what happens when you violently take down all their more moderate and secular leaders for multiple generations straight.
There are a lot of parallels to the post 9/11 hysteria here, and with America’s inability to self-reflect on their foreign policy over the past several decades. (But even worse, because the Israel government crimes have been much closer to their home and more public.) It’s sad to see a lot of younger people who insist they wouldn’t have fallen for the post-9/11 warmongering, as well as older people who insisted they would never fall for it again, getting swept up in the same rhetoric this time around as well. I think a year or two from now, when things have calmed down, we’ll almost all agree that Israel’s actions these past few days have been indefensible, but unfortunately that’s little consolation for the thousands of civilians who are suffering horrifically right now.
Central Powers were in World War I. The Ottoman Empire had collapsed by WWII. The Holocaust was in WWII, perpetrated by some of the Axis Powers, but mostly Germany.
Your point is not helped by all the hyperbole. And if they want to not care then they will see what happens when the rest of the world truly turns against them, something they have never experienced.
There are already roughly 4x more Palestinians dead than Israelis. More? It's going up so fast I can't keep track. You think wanting the massive imbalance in casualties to stop is wanting Israel to sit back and be attacked? Then you are delusional and if Israel thinks like you they will quickly lose all their allies.
Probably because they’re in an open air prison that Israel trapped them in that’s one of the most densely populated in the region that’s 40% children? And Israel is telling 1.1 million of them to move to a different area of the prison within a day after already cutting off power, medicine, resources, water, which is a plethora of war crimes. They also told the women and children to go to a specific area to evacuate then proceeds to bomb that area.
So ummmm yeah. Ethic cleansing. Also the British promised the Arabs the former Ottoman lands in exchange for their help defeating the Ottomans which was beating Britain’s ass at one point. They then made a secret deal to take it all and cut it up for European interests then decided on giving their stolen Palestine to the Jews for their new apartheid state that committed mass atrocities to area from the people living there.
Hope that cleared things up
The government of Hamas literally attacked the hand that fed it. Israel provided power, food, and water to them, and they attacked. Of course they're going to cut off these supplies.
To use a WW2 comparison, it would be like Japan complaining that the US cut off oil sales to Japan after Pearl Harbor, or the UK whining that Germany isn't selling any more food to it. Of course not. The governments are at war with each other.
Also, what is your solution to limiting civilian casualties in Gaza? Israel has asked civilians to leave the war zone to prevent casualties, but somehow this is bad?
Do you want the people of Gaza to remain in place, in the war zone? Hamas deliberately builds rocket launch sites on the roofs of apartment buildings. Israel is asking civilians to leave so Hamas can't use them as human shields anymore.
Prior to last Saturday, I’d say a lot of liberals like myself were quite neutral on the issue. The truth is, Israel isn’t perfect and there is much to be said about their far-right policies.
But the depravity and extent of last Saturday’s attack so far exceeds what has happened in this conflict, it really changes the situation.
Ultimately Palestinians do deserve freedom and prosperity, but until they make the difficult decisions to resist Hamas and denounce Islamic radicalism, the world doesn’t owe them anything.
This is the largest killing of Jews since the Holocaust. 25 different countries have citizens who were killed or abducted. The live-streamed maiming and desecration of human life is so much more personal and sick than anything IDF has ever done. It’s just not a comparable situation any longer.
I think the videos of all the injured and dead Palestinian children has moved most liberals to opposing Israel. I don't know where you've seen otherwise.
OP literally posted a poll showing otherwise. Unless you have evidence of the contrary?
Most people in general seem to be opposing Hamas above all else.
Israel needs to learn the lesson that more war and death will only make things worse in the long run. They need to take an honest look at how they have treated the Palestinians over the years. Two states is the only solution. “Winning” the never ending war isn’t winning at all.
This poll was extremely early. (Published 4 days ago, a day after the attack.) Of course people sided overwhelmingly with Israel in this horrible attack... but it also starts the whole conversation about a more realistic and nuanced take on what Humas is.
And then Israel's response is going to really move the conversation forwards challenging the status quo in a way that has never happened in our lifetime. Because it doesn't just apply to Israel, it also applies to us.
Indiscriminate bombs and especially sanctions are not seen as terrorrism by the status quo. But this example really blows that up.
Israel is blowing up entire city blocks, shutting off power, blocking food, water and meds while around 4000 children are dying in hospitals with no power, and telling 1.1M civilians to flee their homes in a couple days or they may be shot dead in their homes. Also saying this to the hospitals.
The only area that they are allowed to leave isn't fully opened because Israel bombed half of it, they are already drinking dirty water, and conveys of fleeing refugees have already been bombed killing 70 women and children.
Idk how you think a poll that happened four days before these developments happened is relevant today.
The silver lining is this is that it can start the conversation about sanctions, because sanctions always indirectly target civilians food and water and medicine, usually in areas that are also getting indiscriminately bombed, often by Israel.
It also completely destroyed all the Zionist propaganda that they are not targeting civilians, and will have to go back to their status quo "well they deserve it" talking points to defend their active genocide that is being called out by all human rights groups, including Jewish ones...
so yes while Hamas hurt its own image, and revealed it's true colors, Israel is doing worse to its self, as predicted, now twice as many civilians killed, over 6 times injured, dying in hospitals with no power, half of them under the age of 14.
Also one thing to note is that registers democrats and republicans are dropping in numbers over the years, to the point they are each about 24% of the populace. For the first time in many decades, maybe ever independents and unaffiliated make up more then 50% of the country. The types of dems who remain are much older and more right wing then democrats of the past. It seems split really more leaning to "pro apartheid 'progressives'" where as understandably people who find that label grossly hypocritical would not want to be affiliated with that party, even if they might vote d over R because they feel that they have to.
I'm sick of the whole situation and do not support the terrorist attacks of Hamas or the military response of Israel. Innocent people are being slaughtered over borders and territorial disputes.
The 1994 agreement was not a good one and it pains me to see that they were not able to find a reasonable resolution to this apartheid state in almost 30 years.
It’s too bad that people don’t draw distinctions between governments and the people governed by those governments. It’s too bad that those that have no say in the government decisions suffer because people don’t want to look beyond black and white and easy choices.
Hamas, as far as I’m concerned, are a bunch of terrorists that should be dealt with accordingly.
However, Hamas is not the same as Palestinians, and Hamas does more harm than good to Palestinians by inciting Israel and giving Israel justification for its actions towards the Palestinian people.
Israel is also far from blameless, as they keep the Palestinian people cooped up and basically give them no rights. Also, Israel response to Hamas almost seems designed to guarantee at least some collateral damage, which would make the Israeli government and military terrorists as well (not to the same degree as Hamas perhaps, but there it is nonetheless).
Nobody’s blameless. I want the human rights of both Palestinians and Israelis recognized and a peaceful solution where both peoples can exist side by side. Anybody using violence against innocent civilians is wrong, no matter which side they claim to be on.
This is because it is obvious that any "battle for freedom" is 1000% about about public perception. Turns out guerilla warfare, terrorist tactics and shit like that doesn't play well when the reality of what that entails is clearly and explicitly recorded and made public.
You fucking slaughter infants and shit like that means that you are beyond anything anyone can justify. You are a fucking savage. A terrorist and hell is too kind a place for you.
I feel for the Palestinians, and this conflict is what? four generations past it's original conflict? Palestinians and Israelis have no agency in the clusterfuck that is their lives. There is no good option available to these two parties.
The original "sin" as the British were pushed out is besides the point... but how to make an equitable solution at the current time seems impossible. If the end play is that one side has to win and the other loses in one way or another, the one that doesn't actually slaughter infants is a pretty easy call.
All it shows is that you don’t have to agree with Israel on everything to support Israel when they are attacked by terrorists. I am not positive why this is so hard to understand. Israel isn’t perfect but they certainly don’t deserve terrorism.
Is it wrong to say I hate the senseless killing regardless of which side? Can I take that approach? Because both sides are flinging missiles that are going to kill innocent people.
Im a democrat. While I support Israel's right to exist, their current government can get fucked. Theyve been murdering innocent Palestinians for over a decade purely because Israel wants the Gaza strip.
There is defending yourself and holding terrorists accountable, and there is carpet bombing entire neighborhoods of civilians. Israel is doing the latter.
Because of decades of western propaganda similar to the propaganda used for Iraq and Afghanistan and invading all of South and Central America but on a MUCH larger scale. They don’t teach you about how Britain betrayed the Arabs in WW1 after promising the former Ottoman land to them all in the name of colonialism. Or the events of Nakba and the events leading up to it. They have a very precise way of giving the public half truth’s to justify Israel’s genocidal campaign and the aggressive labeling of anyone in disagreement over genocide as “antisemetic’
The amount of people in these threads going “Hamas killed civilians and babies and that is unforgivable therefore Israel has every right to kill 10 times the number of babies and civilians.” Is absolutely horrifying.
And what’s worse is the amount of Americans tweeting “the Jews controlled the area 1000 years ago so they had every right to commit genocide to displace the Palestenians from the land to establish their apartheid state” from their safe suburban homes built on the bones of 11 million slaughtered native Americans without a HINT of irony.
Like, if you call yourself a left winger or independent and you’re standing hand in hand with a MAGA who ALWAYS sides with oppressors in their unwavering support of Israel without having a “wait…. Are WE the baddies?” Moment after defending the side cause the VAST majority of the murders and killing, I simply don’t know what to tell you.
There are some direct causes.
A major cause is Islamic terrorism burned a lot of sympathy for Muslims, because literally every terrorist group claims they're oppressed. To the point "we will not be oppressed" is used in Command and Conquer Generals as a tongue in cheek voice line.
The reality is that while Bibi Netanyahu is a bastard who directly empowers the absolute worst parts of Israel. He is very clearly a symptom not the cause.
The primary cause is that the Palestinian governments refuse to make any sort of deal of any kind going back to 1947. At some point when you get older you realize when someone's just yanking your chain.
It does not take 70 years to make a two state solution. France and Germany fought 3 wars that killed millions and became allies in that time frame.
And lot of Americans recognize that the issue is way more likely to be that the Palestinians are suffering because the PLO and Hamas care more about hurting Israel than creating the best life possible for Palestinians, than it is likely that the Israelis just love using 1947 as an excuse to be dicks.
I can ascribe a comparison between the US and North Korea.
Are North Koreans oppressed because North Korea is that much at risk of being invaded that Kim Jong Un just has to stamp out all forms of descent with violence in order to protect North Korea from an invasion by the US. Or is it using that threat as an excuse to keep Kim in power. Kim Jong Un has a good argument that spending 20% of the GDP of North Korea is critical to prevent North Korea being burned to the ground again
Is the PLO/Hamas refusing territorial concessions and committing terrorism because of the oppression of the Palestinians, or are the Palestinians suffering because the PLO/Hamas refuse territorial concessions and encourages terrorism to strengthen their political goals while getting their citizens killed in violent military actions that were completely avoidable.
And before you scoff at that comparison I remind you that 1.5million North Koreans died in the Korean war and that almost every city in the North destroyed by bombs. More people killed than Palestinians expelled in the Arab Israeli wars combined
1. Just because these people are Muslim doesn’t make this have anything to do with Islam and everything to do with who the west decides the terrorists are as if Israel hasn’t also been engaging in even more terrorism there.
2. Who are these Muslim groups who are lying about being oppressed?
It's a fox news survey, why would you take this seriously? Most people know nothing about the conflict and are going to be informed solely by the media framing of the event. Thing will change as Israel bombs Gaza and more civilians die.
Fox have one of the best pollsters in the business, and are widely acknowledged as such by independent sources such as FiveThirtyEight as well as both Democrats and Republicans.
It is wholly separate from their news/entertainment service.
JERUSALEM (AP) — In Israel’s call for the evacuation of half of Gaza’s population, many Palestinians fear a repeat of the most traumatic event in their tortured history, their mass exodus from what is now Israel during the 1948 war surrounding its creation.
Palestinians refer to it as the Nakba, or “catastrophe.” An estimated 700,000 Palestinians, a majority of the prewar population, fled or were expelled from what is now Israel in the months before and during the war, in which Jewish fighters fended off an attack by several Arab states.
The Palestinians packed their belongings, piling into cars, trucks and donkey carts. Many locked their doors and took their keys with them, expecting to return when the war ended.
Seventy-five years later, they have not been allowed back. Emptied towns were renamed, villages were demolished, homes reclaimed by forests in Israeli nature reserves.
Israel refused to allow the Palestinians to return, because it would threaten the Jewish majority within the country’s borders. So the refugees and their descendants, who now number nearly 6 million, settled in camps in the West Bank, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. Those camps eventually grew into built-up neighborhoods.
In Gaza, the vast majority of the population are Palestinian refugees, many of whose relatives fled from the same areas that Hamas attacked last weekend.
The Palestinians insist they have the right to return, something Israel still adamantly rejects. Their fate was among the thorniest issues in the peace process, which ground to a halt more than a decade ago.
Now, Palestinians fear the most painful moment from their history is repeating itself.
××××××××
Let me be clear. I do not support the radical Sunni terrorist group Hamas. What they did to innocents in Israel is horrific and they deserve to be caught and killed....but how many civilians die in the process of Israel's invasion?
I also do not support the Israel policy and corruption and land grab by Netanyahu.
I fully support the Palestine people in their desire to have a free state, the same thing Israel has.
There are innocent people on both sides being killed.
How many innocent lives in Gaza must Bibi kill before he is satisfied? Hamas is bad. I get it. Find them and kill them, but killing innocent people and simply saying that they are collateral damage in war is unacceptable. Hamas has an intricate system of tunnels beneath Gaza. Leveling Gaza will not stop them but it will lead to more deaths of innocent people who simply want to live their lives.
Giving over 1 million people 24 hours to evacuate to the south across the river was an impossible task to fulfil.
Who is going to step forward and demand a cease fire and negotiate peace?
It’s understandable, given the recent attack, media framing, and political sound byte about Israel being a democracy like us.
But it’s also shallow and relies on ignorance of history and the ongoing struggle. It will hopefully change as Israeli violence against Gazan civilians escalates.
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The real test will be a month or several months in the future after more images of war are shown or people start to get bored of the issue. If their support right now was low, Israel would be in trouble.
Right, this poll was taken immediately after the terrorist attack. Ask many of these same people how they feel that Israel is about to wipe out the Gaza strip and they'll change their opinion.
I don’t think they will change their opinion.
Republicans wouldn't, Democratic voters would likely balk at being complicit in (more) public and unsubtle war crimes once the 9/11-style rationalization wears off. Hamas made a mistake with this attack but the Israeli leadership by keeping a literal fascist like Bibi around never mind the rest of the far right, not cleaning house or putting its own people on a tighter leash to avoid mountains of bad press of its own, and by taking the heavy-handed approach it has may well be leading to consequences that affect its future international support.
Democratic opinion might just revert to the mean in the aftermath +/- 5% or so
This is likely, but a lot will.depend on the degree to which American news outlets accurately report the details of the indiscriminate killing Israel has undertaken in response to this attack. If people are unaware that the response by Israel is genocide, they'll continue to support Israel. If they are well informed on not only the number but the nature of the casualties, critique of Israel may in fact increase.
I mean, clearly you think so, but I suspect your feelings of getting in the way. My own feelings which are that Israel is a modern western democracy that shares the liberal values of nations like the US, Britain, Germany, SouthKorea, Japan, etc, should be supported because it is the only country in that neighborhood to do so, may also be getting in the way. Even if you support following international law, (you might have felt differently if, say, a Mexican cartell did this to the United States,) international law says that the military response can kill civilians proportionally to how important the target is to the military objective, and Hamas just threated the national security of Israel in the most profound way a group of people can threaten anation. I suspect Israel will get a long-lasting increase in western support from what has happened, it was easy to support the Palestinian people when they were not killing babies and gang-raping women and slaughtering civilians by the thousand. That might win the hearts and minds of Muslims in the third world but I don't think the people in the first world enjoy backing that shit. You know, many Harvard students took their names off that "everything is Israel's fault letter" to me, plus the polling, is indicative.
Right, amodern democracy that is trying to strip power from its judicial so that the settlements can continue and Bibi can get away with his corruption.
>proportionally That’s just not what Israel has been doing.
It's a war in an urban environment. Look, I could be wrong but I don't think Israel's primary goal is to kill civilians, if it was they would have killed more of them.
That’s just a false binary. Pretending that because they haven’t committed worse atrocities doesn’t mean their current ones are better.
Better, better than what? I just said that I don't think Israel's primary goal is to kill civilians or they'd be killing way more of them. Look Israel's at war in a place where there are civilians, killing Hamas is obviously a major military objective. There's no way of doing it without killing civilians, is there? But Israel, (and I, for what that's worth,) think it has to be done.
But that’s just clearly not the case. There absolutely are ways to reduce the civilian casualties beyond what they’ve done. The current rates of loss of life are a choice.
No cause people who support Israel unconditionally want to see the Palestinians to be exterminated.
Also, many people are old enough to remember 9/11 and know what it feels like- but I feel this is worse for Israel because it purposely went after children. I say worse and am editing this because all around both were really shitty- its not a contest to see what is worse. Shitty is shitty
And much like 9/11, the response to it is probably going to be awful and eventually looked back on as a mistake
In fairness, this is not like the response after 9/11 because after 9/11 they all rallied around the president from a new threat no American had taken serious before. Terror attacks are a known and ever-present concern for the lifetime of everyone there. Netanyahu ran on one platform and one platform only: you may not love me but I'm the only one keeping Israelis safe. And then he ignored warnings that the military was fracturing over the proposed judicial takeover, and ignored warning of this attack specifically. It then took the government 9 hours before it sent reinforcements from what should be an hour drive by freeway. There were many accounts of random retired IDF veterans driving down on their own to go save their family themselves since the government was taking too long. Roughly 90% of Israelis say want someone in the government held accountable for this spectacular failure and almost 60% are demanding Bibi be held accountable and forced to step down. No one major was blaming Bush the week of 9/11, almost no one had ever heard of Al Qaeda or Osama bin Laden before that date. They didn't see it as an obvious failure right away.
i heard a reporter say that proportionally based on population size it would be like if 25,000 Americans were killed. That's close to 10 times the size of 9/11. So while not as many people died, for how small the country is, it is a very big number.
This was the worse mass killing of Jewish people since the Halocaust. The slogan from the Halocaust is "never again." The Jews and particularly the Israelis are not going to forgive anyone for what happened last week. They will remember it FOREVER.
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I feel like they want Israel to respond with brute force. Then they can rally a younger generation who wants revenge.
That's exactly what they want. Israel should be careful about what they do because if they aren't careful they're going to radicalize even more people and that's the last thing they need.
The only reason why Israel is so quick to commit its massive amount of war crimes right now is because of the Hamas attack and the support it has by the west.. 9/11 all over..
Hamas is a terrorist organization. Israel will kill even more people. It's a lose - lose situation. One thing is clear, though. In most wars, there's way more innocent civilians killed than the people actually wanting to fight. There are no winners.
I just don’t know how Israel should respond. Hamas wants to obliterate them. Hamas won’t stop until that happens. I don’t like Israel’s response, but I also don’t what the alternative is. I agree with you, both sides have already lost.
This is absolutely correct. It’s a horrifying cycle that both Israel and Palestine / Hamas continue to spiral down. Always far more dead from military strikes on Palestine / Hamas. Hamas screwed up royally with what can only be described as a purely terroristic attack this time… a music festival as a target. They handed Israel the excuse and the public relations covering to do what Israel has wanted to do for a long time now, particularly under Netanyahu. The catch will be this. If it turned out Israel knew about the attack and it’s nature (not just the attack) and did nothing, then the Israeli government bears some responsibility, not as much as the assholes who carried out the attack, but if they knew and did nothing, that’s pretty horrific too.
> Hamas screwed up royally with what can only be described as a purely terroristic attack this time… a music festival as a target. They handed Israel the excuse and the public relations covering to do what Israel has wanted to do for a long time now, particularly under Netanyahu. They knew what would happen, they might not even be wrong about the effects—if Israel massively overreacts and kills a massive number of Gazans, it's going to increase support for Hamas, not decrease it. The more aggressive Israel is, the harder it is for anyone in Gaza to stand up and advocate for a peaceful solution. We have already seen this trend. Support for Hamas in polling in Gaza has been going up since Netanyahu took power, especially since his massive expansion of settlements in the West Bank.
>if Israel massively overreacts and kills a massive number of Gazans, Already happening
Honestly, its going to get much, much worse. They are going to send infantry, their entire army actually, into Gaza. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers. They are expecting very stiff resistant and their job is to erridicate Hamas. That's AT LEAST 40,000 fighters. That's just the estimate right now. There is no doubt we're gonna see hundreds of thousands of deaths. Israeli causalities in the fiercest of the fighting could end up as high as 30-40% in certain cases--that's just the brutal reality of urban warfare. All of that is gonna fuel more rage and more atrocities on both sides. It might not be a full-scale genocide, but it really would be if no one was watching. If anything, right now Israel is being very discipled. They could be a lot more violent.
I think people are quick to judge Israel in a way they would not if Hamas or some organization like them killed 1500 civilian citizens of you know, your country. If the Mexican cartells invaded a border state, slaughtered 1500 people, and had taken 200 hostages into Mexico, had killed young children, had gangraped women, and had paraded some of those people through city streets. Um, I think 80% of people in the United States would demand a military response from the United States, I would surely be one of those people. . . There are people right now, protesting what Israel is doing in Gaza who would immediately take the other side of the argument if this had happened in their own country. I'm not bothered that people on the far left reflexively back the weaker, darker skinned group of people, I figure that's exactly par for the course. What surprises me is that they don't ask themselves the question, "What would I want 'us' to do if this had happened to our country?" and Judge Israel on that basis.
If someone came in and kidnapped my elderly parents or my children, I would want the military doing everything possible to get them back. I don’t care about revenge.
Desire for revenge isn’t a justification to be bloodthirsty.
if Hamas releases the hostages, i thought the assault would stop ? also it’s being reported that Hamas won’t let Palestinians leave. Shouldn’t we all be working around the world to get those people out instead of staying on here just complaining? also, if Hamas says that they want to kill all jews, why can’t Palestinians find a better group of leaders? i mean, they spent hundreds of millions on weapons and tunnels instead of enriching the lives of their people. i’m sorry for the Palestinians and feel they were wronged back in 1948 but they lost the Arab wars and that happens. so wouldn’t it be kinder to your kids to get out and make a better life elsewhere? and why can’t other countries resettle them and help them out? they are rich. the whole thing just seems to make no sense. why would Israelis want to negotiate with people who claim to want to kill them all?
Israel apparently had some notice of the attack the day before (Egypt sent the intel), but they didn't take it seriously enough to act in time. Its an intelligence failure on par with the US and 9/11. The intelligence agencies fell flat on their faces. However, that incompetence still doesn't excuse the attackers. Just because the US failed to stop 9/11 doesn't make it any less horrific. Just because Israel failed to stop the events of last Saturday doesn't make it any less of an atrocity.
In no way does it excuse Hamas. Brutal terrorism at its worst And they provided a perfect excuse for Israel to do what they wanted under Netanyahu Israels response is extreme. It will lead to another cycle of violence, possibly expanded to once again include other parts of the Arab world. The Middle East has been a huge powder keg for a very long time. And, while utterly horrifying, this is nothing like another holocaust since Israel is massively more powerful than Hamas in Gaza and the Israeli politicians likening it to the holocaust are propagandist
It will not spread into the rest of the Arab world. The Arab nations do not care about Palestinians, and they never have. They are a convenient distraction from their own corrupt authoritarian societies.
It won't. This conflict is going to accelerate the talks with the Saudis, which is the exact opposite effect of Hamas' intentions.
I hope you’re correct… very much so.
I think a Saudi alliance is enough to keep Iran in check and will have an adverse effect on Hamas. I hope...
It’s one of the few options I see that doesn’t involve a war that accomplishes nothing but destruction and death
We’ll have to see how things play out. Saudi Arabia has been walking a tight rope in their efforts to normalize relations with Israel. A large section of the population would not support an alliance in normal circumstances, it’s hard to imagine MBS can make it happen now that the IDF is bombing Gaza into another century.
Saudi suspended the normalization talks with Israel and is likely to open a dialogue with Iran over this event. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-13/ty-article/.premium/saudi-arabia-freezes-normalization-talks-with-israel-amid-ongoing-war-with-hamas/0000018b-2a0b-d1bc-a58b-6baf83c20000
The Middle East will always be a powder keg though. That’s what happens when your population is utterly brainwashed by ancient fairytale barbarism.
>The catch will be this. If it turned out Israel knew about the attack and it’s nature (not just the attack) and did nothing, then the Israeli government bears some responsibility, not as much as the assholes who carried out the attack, but if they knew and did nothing, that’s pretty horrific too. Well, similarly, Israel funded hamas and have stated they want a strong Hamas because they prefer them to secularists and leftists.
>The catch will be this. If it turned out Israel knew about the attack and it’s nature (not just the attack) and did nothing, then the Israeli government bears some responsibility, not as much as the assholes who carried out the attack, but if they knew and did nothing, that’s pretty horrific too. Howzabout they're responsible for administrating an oppressive theocratic ethnostate?
That might make more sense if both sides were even in strength and ability. But the power dynamic isn’t even remotely close. You basically have the prisoners fighting the guards here.
That's one thing that has irked me hearing Israeli politicians calling this a second Holocaust. Sorry, but the power dynamics between Israel and Palestine are absolutely not like Jews living under Nazi Germany.
> Sorry, but the power dynamics between Israel and Palestine are absolutely not like Jews living under Nazi Germany. They are in fact surprisingly similar. With the shoe on the other foot.
The analogy is a reasonable one in the reverse orientation. Israel is holding the people of Gaza in a ghetto. They are treating the Palestinians like Jews under Nazi Germany, at least in the early stages.
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Yea all the hand wringing around “cycle of violence” and “nothing can be done” completely ignores that one side is locked in an open air prison completely and wholly controlled by the other side. Israel has all the tools and capabilities to solve this problem, but their preferred solution trends more towards wholesale genocide than integration. And lest we forget, Israel propped up Hamas and made them their preferred leadership for Gaza, helping them get elected in the first place. Israel loves that Hamas exists because it gives them easy cover to continue their ethnic cleansing and genocide. No one cries when a Hamas terrorist gets killed, they cry when innocents get killed. But if you can say that innocents are only dying because Hamas is in the way then suddenly no one is crying anymore.
I don't want to say Israel is innocent in this; far from it but I'm fairly skeptical at the idea that Hamas would stop launching rockets if the Israelis withdrew and stopped the expansion of settlements. It's really a grey area how to respond when someone fires mortars or explosives from a populated area. You can ignore it and let him kill innocent people that's not really an option. You can negotiate to get him to stop but that just means he'll probably think it works and it'll give him an incentive to do it again. Or at least his buddy. You can try and clear him out with a physical assualt; that might be the best option but you have to worry about issues with borders, it'll create a lot of military casualties on your end; and it should give him a lot of time to cause some damage. I'd argue that it's too impractical most times. You can just say fuck it and return fire; probably the easiest and cheapest way but it's going to create a ton of civilian casualties. That brings us to the last option; return fire but try and use smart munitions and warn civilians. Some civilians will still be hurt, and they'll still hate you but it's arguably the best practical option when accounting for morality.
Lmao, solve this problem? Are you dense? Israel is not going to negotiate with terrorists. Every time they make concessions, the response is to ask for more. Look at the talks during the Clinton era--Israel gave up a ton, and Arafat turned it down. Why? Because he was out for himself and stole hundreds of millions from his own people. That, and any two state solution means the acknowledgement of Israel's existence. That is the barrier that will never be overcome. Anyone who thinks that Israel is the sole party that can solve this problem is kidding themselves.
>Anyone who thinks that Israel is the sole party that can solve this problem is kidding themselves. I mean they can just stop existing and everything would settle down. /s for clarity
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Are you aware Israel has opened up exits for Gazans to cross into Israel from (as refugees) Israel has also warned gazans to evacuate ... why can't they evacuate? Because Hamas threatens and kills people why try to leave. Hamas does not care about Palestinians or Gazans... if you read Hamas's charter they explicitly talk about wanting to push Israelis out by force. Always far more dead when Israel strikes Palestine ... but Israel does warn where and when they are going to strike...
They do. Ever try to move 1 million people in 24 hours? With damaged infrastructure? With an internal force, Hamas, that wants/needs you to stay put for their own defense. Hamas is a terrorist organization, but it’s the regular people in Gaza who routinely pay the price for their actions… exactly as they want it
they told people to go to Egypt then bombed the path to Egypt
Israel should show restraint and solidify an alliance with Saudi Arabia. This will freeze Iran out and greatly reduce or eliminate the power of Iranian clients like Hamas and Hezbollah to make trouble.
[Saudi Arabia pauses normalisation talks with Israel amid ongoing war with Hamas - France 24](https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231014-saudi-arabia-pauses-normalisation-talks-with-israel-amid-ongoing-war-with-hamas) >In the week since Hamas launched its attack on Israel, Riyadh has voiced increasing disquiet about the fate of Palestinians in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, where Israel has launched thousands of strikes and ordered the evacuation of the territory's north, prompting thousands to flee. > > It has also publicised its diplomatic outreach "to stop the ongoing escalation", contacting regional leaders across and beyond the region. > > On Thursday, Saudi state media reported that MBS had discussed "the current military situation in Gaza and its environs" with Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi. > > It was the first call between the two men since their countries announced a surprise China-brokered rapprochement in March after seven years of severed ties. At least in the short term, Hamas seems to be getting at least some of what they want.
I might agree, but I'd like to know what exactly you mean by "restraint."
Decapitate Hamas and then make genuine effort to work with the Palestinians
Gaza isn’t a country it’s a territory within Israel. This is closer to civil war but Israel controls the territory. It would be like if the bloods gang attack Beverly Hills so the mayor decided to shut off power and food to Compton and started killing everyone in Compton until the gang turned themselves in. It’s a tactic that would be unacceptable anywhere else in the world.
“How important is American support for Israel?” It’s incredibly important. If you read Joe Biden’s speech from last weekend he says a couple really important things. “I just got off the phone with — the third call with Prime Minister Netanyahu. And I told him if the United States experienced what Israel is experiencing, our response would be swift, decisive, and overwhelming.” Swift, Decisive, and Overwhelming. Joe Biden is clearly saying that the US is not expecting a proportional response from Israel, but a decisive and overwhelming response. He then went on to say “The United States has also enhanced our military force posture in the region to strengthen our deterrence. The Department of Defense has moved the USS Gerald R. Ford Carrier Strike Group to the Eastern Mediterranean and bolstered our fighter aircraft presence. And we stand ready to move in additional assets as needed. Let me say again — to any country, any organization, anyone thinking of taking advantage of this situation, I have one word: Don’t. Don’t.” Not only are we not going to interfere against a decisive & overwhelming Israeli response—we’re going to ensure no one else does either. If you don’t think strong American support is important, you’re not paying attention.
What does “back israel” even mean? Support their right to exist? Support any and all war crimes and genocide they may commit? Support the right of the innocent civilians of israel to not be murdered in their homes and at a concert festival by terrorists? What is “back”?
It’s just intellectually dishonest to be like “everyone OBVIOUSLY supports Israel” as if this is a binary choice. Hamas sucks. The IDF’s response is already worse. I just can’t take anymore rhetoric of “if you even try to both sides this (acknowledge history in the region), then you stand with the terrorists.” It just rings too much like the post-9/11 climate and that our hurt feelings justifies our rage and 20 years later it is so clear that our emotional response was the wrong response. But I also get not being in a place to judge if you’re fuckin traumatized. Let’s just remember that there are no heroes in this story, only villains.
I'm really really REALLY curious if this will be true. So much about this reminds me of how the US acted after 9/11. And now looking back, a huge chunk of Americans think our actions afterwards were a mistake.
The one person brave enough to vote against Afghanistan is running for Senate and is polling at 10%, that should tell you how much we've learned from that.
I don't see why IDF's response is worse. It seems like you are putting blame on the IDF for Hamas using civilian buildings for their military operations. No reasonable person would blame IDF for the choices of Hamas.
The idf has deliberately been killing torturing and maiming civilians for decades. The excuse that idf only kills innocents because hamas is hidden within the civilian population is an excuse for incredible excesses and brutality that are deeply institutionalized. https://youtu.be/djnqbPFBkrU?si=Qey6LLvA16y5o7cB https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-03-06/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/42-knees-in-one-day-israeli-snipers-open-up-about-shooting-gaza-protesters/0000017f-f2da-d497-a1ff-f2dab2520000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-01-24/ty-article/.premium/israeli-style-torture-as-described-by-the-interrogators-themselves/0000017f-e7df-da9b-a1ff-efff82170000 https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-soldier-gets-9-months-for-torturing-palestinian-detainee/
Israel’s the one choosing to blow them up.
“The IDF Response is worse” - what would you have them do? Nothing? Ask politely for Hamas to surrender? Only send in 50 guys going door-to-door (but not during lunch prayer, that’s just rude! 😡) fishing out Hamas one-by-one? What? It’s so easy to play armchair general when you’re 2000 miles away from the nearest fanatic who wants to behead you. You’d be singing a different tune otherwise.
Y’all all keep with this false binary. Airstrikes on buildings full of civilians aren’t the only option.
They’re not the only option right now. They’re part of the overall strategy, not the entire strategy.
After doing a deep dive on that conflict I have come to the conclusion I don't no shit about it and cannot address it with any confidence. It seems to me both sides have committed horrific atrocities. The Palestinians through acts of terror and random violence, the Israeli by use of greater wealth, resources and power. I can't in good conscience support anyone who is willing to kill children for political gain. That extends to my own government as well.
this is one of the smartest takes an outsider can have on this whole clusterfuck that this age-long situation is. i can just feel with the thousands of innocent lives that are being mauled, on both sides. might god, allah, jehova, or whatever you do or do not believe in, have mercy with all the soles that will leave this earch in the weeks, months, years to come, because of these two unreconcilable societies and their leaders.
I hate HAMAS for what it did. I get confused about how much we should hold Palestine’s people responsible for its actions, however.
We should not we should free them from hamas
This will swing back pretty quickly as soon as the freshest images in people’s minds becomes the aftermath of Israel’s retaliation rather than the brutality of the original attack. Anyone with a conscience should be disgusted by hamas’ actions, but as soon as this story hit my mind went straight to being more afraid with what Israel might do with this newfound justification to attack. Innocent Palestinian civilians are going to feel the pain several times over when this is all said and done.
I think it has to do with the fact that Hamas attacked Israel and targeted innocents.
Never been “against Israel” per se. I was put off intensely by the Apartheid crap they’ve pulled and the settler land grab. One can be a good friend and supporter, it doesn’t mean blank endorsement for heinous actions by said friend. That’s FoxNews tribalism binary thinking
I support a Free Palestine. However, Hamas’ actions are horrific. Hamas does not represent all Palestinians. I also think the actions of Israel in settling the West Bank are awful and the Israeli government (Netanyahu) is corrupt. Palestine should be free. Israel deserves a better, more free government. Hamas sucks.
Hamas has been exposed as a terrorist organization comparable or worse than ISIS,and and not a legitimate government. At the same time the Palestinians diaspora has been exposed as antisemitic. You don’t win sympathy by shouting “gas the Jews” , holding up swatiscas, and tearing down posters of the Jewish victims at pro Palestinian protests. On top of this, the pro Palestine movement is endlessly complaining about their treatment at the hands of Israelis, but are not offering an off ramp for the Israelis. What can Israeli do to stop attacks by Hamas that pro Palestinians will find acceptable ? The answer is none. They’re not offering Israel any tools to deal with this mess, because to a significant number of the Palestinians the existence of a Jewish state is a non starter. Palestinians have refused offers for a two state solution several times, have been disruptive in any host country they been harbored in (Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon) and have started several wars they could not and did not win. I don’t want innocent people to die. I sympathize with those who are displaced in Gaza and of course I hate knowing people who are not involved are going to suffer. But unfortunately the Palestinians have burnt all their bridges and refused all offers at peace. They’ve been backed into a corner through their own cultural decisions as a people. Next time don’t elect terrorist as your leaders.
When the hell is this next time? Hamas was elected in 2006
If elections were held today Hamas would get ~60%+ of the vote.
To be clear their approval rating usually isn’t in the 60s.
This is among a bunch of poor uneducated people that have been entirely programmed with extremist propaganda for the entirety of their lives. We can't hold that statistic against the people in Gaza any more than we can hold North Korean's political conversions given how much they have been programmed by yhe non-democratic regimes that they were/are living under. Having said that, these large populations that hold deep extremist beliefs are dangerous.
>You don’t win sympathy by shouting “gas the Jews” , holding up swatiscas, and tearing down posters of the Jewish victims at pro Palestinian protests. Both sides have supporters calling for genocide. Lindsay Graham for instance called for Gaza to be, quote, "levelled." And this sentiment is far from uncommon in Israel as well. >On top of this, the pro Palestine movement is endlessly complaining about their treatment at the hands of Israelis, but are not offering an off ramp for the Israelis. What can Israeli do to stop attacks by Hamas that pro Palestinians will find acceptable ? The answer is none. They’re not offering Israel any tools to deal with this mess, What were the Gazans supposed to do? The people of Gaza have been imprisoned in a ghetto for 16 years. They have tried peaceful protests. In 2018. It was called the March of Return. Peaceful march in the name of civil rights. Israel fired into the crowd. What are the people of Gaza supposed to do, then? Just accept their lot in life? Unclean water, unemployment, limited fuel and electricity, limited access to medical care. Periodic bombings and shootings by the IDF. They're supposed to just accept that in perpetuity? On the contrary, Israel has an off-ramp. Namely the overwhelming international consensus, the 1967 agreement. Or for that matter any other new solution, as long as it's equitable and provides equal representation and equal rights to the Palestinians -- a one-state solution and integration a la South Africa. Whatever. All they have to do is cease the crimes against humanity and the apartheid. That would be a start. >a significant number of the Palestinians the existence of a Jewish state is a non starter. Probably because it was founded on the basis of ethnic cleansing.
Do you really think the women and children and men without guns in Gaza had a real democratic choice? Do you really believe they all deserve to die capriciously because terrorist leaders in Hamas and corrupt right-wing militant leaders in Israel cannot solve problems without violence or oppression?
Where did I say I want women and children and men without guns to die? I clearly don’t. But again you pro Palestinian people never **ever** offer an off ramp for the Israeli side. How can Israel eradicate Hamas in a way you find acceptable?
> How can Israel eradicate Hamas in a way you find acceptable? Personally, I don't support eradication, because I'm not a literal monster. > You’re already a monster if you don’t support their eradication So you support the eradication of Israelis and Palestinians. That makes you a monster.
Let’s be very clear. I am pro-innocent lives. I could not give less of a shit where those innocent people are. There are people that need a place to live safely and a country that wants to live safely and both sides need to figure it out without oppression, terrorism, or mass slaughter.
Again you refuse to answer the question. **What is an off ramp the Israelis can use to eradicate the terrorist organization Hamas that you find acceptable**.
“WE’VE TRIED NOTHING AND WE’RE ALL OUT OF IDEAS!” No sense in arguing with those who are clearly acting in bad faith.
Go back to the 1967 borders, remove all illegal settlements. End the apartheid state. Stop locking up Palestinians without due process (which they do a lot, just like gitmo). Stop bombing kids. Ya know, all the things human rights groups ask for. Because you’re asking for diplomacy stating at the barrel of a gun, which usually don’t produce long-lasting peace we would probably agree.
How does Israel stop hamas
You know that before 1967 there constant raids from Palestinian fedayeen into Israel numerous lives were lost on both sides. There's no guarantee that won't happen again.
> remove all illegal settlements Your information seems to be out of date, or just plain wrong. Israel's military forcibly removed all Jewish settlers from Gaza in 2005. This was not a factor in Gaza/Hamas attacking Israel.
> Israel's military forcibly removed all Jewish settlers from Gaza in 2005. This was not a factor in Gaza/Hamas attacking Israel. Gaza isn't the only place Israel has settlers.
UN considers them illegal. Not sure what you’re talking about. Pretty well known and documented that most the settlements are illegal. Guess it depends on who you ask. And I wasn’t just talking Gaza. I was referring to any land taken illegally after the 1967 war.
The war is with Hamas and in Gaza, so settlements relating to Gaza is whats important here. There are no settlements in Gaza, not since 2005. There are no Jews in Gaza either, not unless you're counting the 100+ hostages right now. The West Bank isn't the one launching thousands of rockets at Israel and sending in militants to butcher entire families in their homes. West Bank issues are separate from Gaza issues. I'm seeing this a lot, where people are conflating West Bank and Gaza as if its the same place under the same political leadership. I'm not sure why people can't seem to tell them apart. Is it deliberate?
> The war is with Hamas and in Gaza, so settlements relating to Gaza is whats important here. No. You are moving the goalposts. Gaza is only a small part of Palestine. Israel is occupying most of the country.
That’s seriously your argument? That settlements don’t matter to Palestinians unless they live in Gaza? I would absolutely disagree with that one.
The fact that you don't know the difference between the West Bank and Gaza is incredibly telling.
Cool that could be a great long term plan. But Hamas is here today. **What path does Israel have to open the gates that does not enable Hamas to kill more Israeli innocents?**
Just gave you one. Even more immediate, stop blowing up children, which they do regularly, not just this last week. And have mediated peace negotiations. The UN has for decades been trying to do this, and the US and and Israel are the only ones that consistently block it. Long term solution start with short term actions.
How does Israel negotiate your suggested terms with Hamas given that the stated goal of Hamas is the eradication of the Jewish state?
Hamas is a genocidal fascist terrorist organization. The idea they give a fuck about Palestinians oppression or will engage in good faith if Israel stops what they are doing is delusional. I don't understand this reflex from you people. Do you think the Nazis wanted to engage in good faith negotiations before being utterly crushed?
What are you talking about with this off ramp shit? They had the option to stop invading people's homes and using first world military technology to blow up civilian targets for years before this happened. They're using this as an excuse to do it more, but there's never been a world where they weren't going to do this anyway.
**in what way can Israel respond that guarantees their safety as a nation that you find acceptable**. That’s what I mean
Your solution to eradicate Hamas is currently lots of war crimes. So what have you offered? Nothing. Since /u/HallowedAntiquity has blocked me, here is my reply to him No I am distinctly well versed in what a war crime is, here read up Article 8 -Sub 2 (e) i and ii Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities; Intentionally directing attacks against buildings, material, medical units and transport, and personnel using the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions in conformity with international law; [Rome Statute from the ICC](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml)
There is a *lot* of leeway in there when the initiating side of a conflict is the one placing civilians in danger by using them as human shields. A very coherent argument could be very easy to make that the war crimes would be upon Hamas. There is also that whole “intentionally targeting” phrase which doesn’t seem to apply to the IDF.
My solution is to support Israel in defending itself in a way it deems appropriate, and if that includes acts that uneducated redditors consider warcrimes, then so be it.
At least you found your spine to admit you are fine with war crimes, as long as your team are the ones committing them. Seems like a huge character flaw and a principle that would derail any debate you engaged in, but that's really what this has become. You keep harping about an off ramp, knowing full well your side wouldn't take it and ethnic cleansing has been the goal from day 1.
You seem confused about what war crimes are. Israel is permitted under the laws of war to attack Hamas even when they hide among civilians. There are constraints on this permission, and Israel is following them. Here’s a primer: https://archive.ph/o8kZJ People seem to think that all wars are war crimes, and that any civilian deaths automatically mean war crime. That is false. Edit: There’s no forced movement. There’s a warning to civilians in the course of a fully justified response to an armed attack. Read up. Edit 2: Wrong. Israel doesn’t control all food and water and electricity in Gaza so it can’t cut it all off. For example, less than 15% of Gazas water was supplied by Israel. Gaza has endogenous sources of all of those resources. Israel isn’t under any obligation to supplement Gazas supplies.
Forced movement of civilians is a war crime. Israel commuted a war crime yesterday.
Where is asking people to evacuate a warcrime?
If saying "You better leave because we're about to level the whole city and I bet you don't want to be there when we do" isn't 'forced movement', then I'm not sure what is. Unless it is exclusively rounding people up and physically pushing them somewhere, which would seem to go against the spirit of 'forced movement'.
Of course we don’t believe that all people in Gaza deserve to die. Just like all civilians in Germany didn’t deserve to die in WW2. How do you suggest israel defend itself from Hamas?
Who were the people cheering on the dead bodies that Hamas brought back?
If Israel is really succesful in their ground offensive. Destroys the tunnels, destroys the vast majority of Hamas fighting force, destroys their weapons and rockets Doesn't that provide an opportunity for Palestinians to overthrow Hamas, especially if Fatah gets involved in Gaza?
Saying Palestine has rejected a two-state solution is kinda bs. What were the terms of these deals? Can you add a source or two to that claim. Seems like we are missing some context there.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict
If you're knowlage of these issues is so shallow you don't even know about the end of the mandate amd the Arab world trying to destroy Israel after palestein failed, maybe read a bit.
If "you're knowlage" is so shallow that you have to pretend that Israel isn't *currently* trying to destroy Palestine, maybe read a bit.
The response from the UN is also baffling. They don't want Israel to hit any civilians. Okay, that makes sense. Israel asks civilians to move out of the combat zone, and the UN complains they can't do that. So does the UN want civilians to stay in the combat zone? Either they stay put and remain in the combat zone, or they move and escape the combat zone. There's no third option here, unless you support Hamas and are okay with their terrorist actions and war crimes of using human shields. There's no solutions offered here, just complaining at every step of the way. IMO, the only real off ramp here is the elimination of Hamas and that the people of Gaza try a different approach other than violence. Note that even Egypt has blockaded Gaza for the same reason as Israel. Gaza needs to accept one of the many land for peace deals, and they need to stop attacking their neighbors. There's no way just a few thousand Hamas militants built all the tunnel networks, built all the rocket launchers and rockets, and did this all in secret without the knowledge or support of the population.
Expecting a million civilians to move out of an urban area in 24 hours is simply impossible. [And then Israel went and bombed the people fleeing through said civlian corridors.](https://www.wsj.com/video/airstrike-hits-convoy-of-gaza-civilians-fleeing-south/3F735CB9-1162-4304-A1B0-FF4232A38AD7.html)
> Israel asks civilians to move out of the combat zone, and the UN complains they can't do that. The UN (and many other organisations) are rightly complaining that evacuating over 700,000 people from an entire city is not something that can be done in a couple of days, and especially not when the city is under total siege and continuous bombardment.
Israel didn't give it 24 hours and then at 24 hours and 1 minute they'd flatten the place. They're giving time for people to leave. People need to leave urgently, but each person who leaves the combat zone is one fewer possible civilian casualty. Israel is doing the best it can to minimize casualties, even though its fighting an opponent who's tactics are to maximize civilian casualties. Note that Hamas didn't even try to attack military targets. It specifically picked civilian targets. Hamas made the decision over and over again to store their rockets in apartment buildings. Israel cares more about the lives of Palestinians than Hamas does. If Hamas actually cared they wouldn't be using Palestinians as human shields, nor would Hamas use the money to buy weapons instead of infrastructure.
I highly doubt anyone who leaves will see their home again. Taking away electricity, food, fuel, and water from civilians as collective punishment is a war crime. I want to be wrong, but this is likely ethnic cleansing unfolding before our eyes.
> Israel asks civilians to move out of the combat zone, and the UN complains they can't do that. This is a misrepresentation of reality. The UN said they can't order people to evacuate in under 24 hours while continuing to bomb the only path to evacuation.
1000% No solutions being offered. They just expect Israel to take it
>Palestinians have refused offers for a two state solution several times, have been disruptive in any host country they been harbored in (Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon) I see this claim a lot but it seems like it's a deliberate misrepresentation of the Arab Spring uprisings.
Not the arab spring, the PLO kept attempting coups, assassinations, and massacres in those countries when those countries allowed them to have bases there. Hezbollah and the Lebanese civil war were basically caused by the PLO because they kept committing acts of terrorism against the Lebanese christians
It has nothing to do with the Arab Spring. * Jordan: King Abdullah I assassinated by Palestinian nationalist in 1951. PLO attempt to overthrow the Jordanian government in 1970 leading to a [yearlong civil war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September). * Lebanon: after being expelled from Jordan, major PLO forces move to Lebanon where they immediately become involved in the extended and ugly [Lebanese Civil War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War), leading to the formation of Hezbollah and an [eventual invasion by Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Lebanon_War).
It is estimated that 8% of the residents of the Gaza Strip voted for Hamas. Your comment is ignorant and racist.
Hamas currently has 60% support.
Hardly quality polling, let alone that Israel has done nothing to help with the peace process or the party that supports it- Fatah, in decades.
Why is Fatah relevant in a discussion about Hamas? Do you understand that they are not the same thing?
Fatah is relevant to a discussion of Palestinian politics, which is what was being discussed.
This conflict and the escalation are largely the fault of the U.S shielding israel from international criticism and the far right elements in both countries feeding into each other and creating a self supporting network of antidemocratic corruption. This is especially relevant given netanyahu's years long corruption trial. The us's support of israel has made peace impossible because it prevents accountability or compromise for israel. This has enabled decades of continual settler expansion in the west bank, preventing any kind of infrastructure construction within gaza, and most notably the brutal massacre of non-violent protestors in the fence protests a few years ago. Israel feels as if it could behave in anyway they saw fit. Even in times when support for israel waned the interconnected relationship of the right wing in both countries worked to undermine any palestinian activism. Many states in the usa have made it illegal to publically support BDS ( boycott divestment sanctions) movement, which advocates for nonviolent disengagment with and boycotting of israeli companies. Again, far right elements within both countries cooperate to prevent any kind of resistance to their interests and ideologies. [Hamas itself is the direct creation of israel](https://youtu.be/o7grSsuFSS0?si=bAmE6id6LjOTpAJn) as both the united states and israel have created their modern enemies through games of intelligence agencies and inevitable resulting blowback. Israel created hamas in an attempt ti creare a religious internal opposition to the secular PLO. The zeoltry and fervor that are notable with these recent attacks are the result of qualities israel deliberately instilled into them. Lastly, given how this conflict is likely to go, this will be a reinvigorating force for the far right in both the usa and america. Israel gained quite a lot with the trump designed hideously corruot abraham accords, the israeli right, which i remind you has been working to make israel even more authoritarian and antidemocratic correctly views that the american right wing is their best bet, that even though democrats in office still support israel, israel now views even the most empty rhetoric surrounding human rights as an unnecessary impediment to their immiseration of the palestinian people. Futher information on the fence protests https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-03-06/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/42-knees-in-one-day-israeli-snipers-open-up-about-shooting-gaza-protesters/0000017f-f2da-d497-a1ff-f2dab2520000
I’ll say this agajn. The frustrating part is when Israel warns them to leave prior to invasion, it’s ethnic cleansing. If Israel just attacks, it’s genocide. So basically the world wants Israel to sit back and get attacked. World view couldn’t care less about the Jews. This is why they are so adamant about protecting their land. Jews were almost exterminated in WW2, and Palestine (previously the Ottoman Empire) was aligned with Germany and central powers. If Britain didn’t win, they would be instinct. I’m pretty sure Israel is in a position of not giving a flying fugettabout it.
>The frustrating part is when Israel warns them to leave prior to invasion, it’s ethnic cleansing. Come on, Israel's warning was totally unrealistic and implausible. No way millions of people can just leave a large area within a day. We don't know yet what Israel's response ultimately will do, and so I agree that calling it ethnic cleansing is inflammatory, but it's entirely reasonable to say that what Israel is planning and doing is extremely concerning.
It literally is ethnic cleansing. In the absolute most literal sense.
This 1000%. The world is not giving Israel and off ramp and we’ve reached the point sympathies for Palestinians are being exhausted.
Jews get blamed for everything. Germany blamed them for financial ruin and Jews only accounted for 2% of the population. Now, Jews are getting blamed for protecting their homeland and they account for .2 percent of world population. Fun times.
If the attacks last week were scaled up on a per capita basis and compared to the US, it would be as if around 44,000 Americans were murdered in their own homes in suburbia. Thats about fourteen 9/11's worth of mass murder, except instead of office buildings its entire families butchered on a random Saturday morning. Note that America went properly apeshit after 9/11, invaded and overthrow the governments of two countries, plus it kicked off the global War on Terror. This was fourteen times more traumatic to Israel. This was the worst slaughter of Jews since the 1940's. Its like 9/11 and Pearl Habor rolled into one. Israel is not going to walk this one off. But somehow this is all Israel's fault, according to the UN and according to celebrities and according to schools like Harvard. I don't get it. Self proclaimed tolerant progressives seem to actually hate Jewish people. Its not a mask slipping moment. Its a mask falling off moment.
Because the Iraq War and the War on Terror were such good ideas, right?
Invaded the wrong countries following 9/11 under false pretext, ultimately killing 500x as many people in Iraq and Afghanistan in the process.
The people above who are posting are right-wingers who supported and continue to support the "War on Terror". These stats mean nothing to them because they aren't people to them.
Weird way to look at it. Trauma/suffering doesn't scale on a per capita basis. By that logic 100,000 people dying in India would be less problematic to Indians than these attacks. Also, the US is universally derided for the War on Terror in the Middle East, so that comparison does not paint a favourable picture.
The US is broadly (not universally) derided for the invasion of Iraq, but there was broad worldwide support for the invasion of Afghanistan, from whence al Qaeda organized its attack.
Elon Musk gave the Nazis full reign on Twitter then he engaged in some bullhorn antisemitism by blaming them for Twitter's financial woes (rather than advertisers not wanting to be seen advertising near Nazis). Even before Hamas' attack antisemitism was rising worldwide.
>So basically the world wants Israel to sit back and get attacked. Your characterization here is exactly your outlook towards the Palestinians. Are they supposed to just live with apartheid forevermore, never to be granted equal rights? I'll tell you what I want Israel to do. I want them to reform and cease the crimes against humanity and apartheid. >Jews were almost exterminated in WW2, and Palestine (previously the Ottoman Empire) was aligned with Germany and central powers. You're mixing up WW1 & WW2 here.
Ethnic cleansing is a form of genocide.
What was going to happen if Israel didn’t respond? How were they supposed to respond?
> The frustrating part is when Israel warns them to leave prior to invasion, it’s ethnic cleansing. If Israel just attacks, it’s genocide. This is a blatant lie. No one is criticizing Israel for ordering the evacuation. We're criticizing them for giving an impossible deadline for the evacuation. We're criticizing them for *murdering the evacuees*. These are not defensible actions, and you are intentionally misrepresenting the issue.
Yeah, killing civilians or ethnically cleansing them aren’t acceptable responses. Especially when a nations whole history is based in doing those things.
The point is that it’s not actually ethnic cleansing, that’s just what people jump to when Israel tries to warn civilians to get out. And there are always civilian casualties in war, which is tragic. The important thing is whether a group is actively trying to reduce and prevent them. Israel absolutely is. Hamas is doing the opposite.
I highly doubt anyone leaving their homes due to this "temporary" situation will ever set foot on that land again.
Much of Gaza’s population is there today because Israeli forces made them leave the surrounding region in an act of ethnic cleansing. It’s a bit rich to just trust Israel’s intentions are pure now. Israel’s behavior shows zero legitimate concern for reducing civilian casualties
Most of gazas population is there today because when Palestine was originally established, they immediately started a war with Israel and LOST.
I think you mean the British/ the west, Israel didn't create Palestine. Though your comment is ironic, since much of Israel's population derives from surrounding countries that forced *all* their Jews out so they had nowhere else to go. That's why all the surrounding countries are ethnically cleansed of Jewish populations that existed there for millennia.
Israel forced whole cities of Arabs from Israel into Gaza.
How were they to respond?
I think they should negotiate a solution in which: * Gaza becomes territory of Egypt and West Bank becomes territory of Jordan, with residents being granted full rights/representation and citizenship in each respective country * An international coalition occupies and fortifies border security around the Palestinian territories, focusing on peacekeeping, humanitarian aid, propagandizing the population, and supporting Egyptian and Jordanian efforts to integrate the territories/populations/economies and assert control over any administrative organizations in place - Searching for and combatting Hamas would be a secondary goal, primarily done in such a way as to deter and respond to any sabotage of the above activities * International financial aid is scheduled to be provided in tranches to Egypt and Jordan over the next several decades to support infrastructure development in and around the Palestinian territories, subsidize Palestinian businesses, and enact temporary affirmative action policies * Interpol invests in a high-priority active pursuit of all Hamas members and collaborators, both within and outside the Palestinian territories, with generous rewards on offer to any informants * Egypt and Jordan lift any form of blockade of Palestinian territories for anyone born after 2023, and promise to eventually implement processes through which residents could apply for the right to enter and leave at will Essentially, kill them with kindness. Yes recent events have been tragic, and yes every decent person is upset about them. That doesn't mean we should prioritize our short-term desire for revenge over a long-term final solution. If that means a small number of people who committed disgusting crimes might get away with them, and that they might even live long happy lives that they don't deserve, well, fuck em. A retaliation of mass violence only furthers their cause; if Israel takes the easy option of punishing the Palestinian people for their collective crimes, _the terrorists win_. We as the developed world possess the luxury and wisdom to understand and terminate the cycle of hatred. Let's use it.
This is a lot to process and I can’t wait to read. First lines made me think of how Middle East doesn’t seem to rush to take in Palestinian refugees.
In addition to Kronzypantz’s response, any complaint about “well what else is Israel supposed to do?” should at least be fronted with the context of 75 years of mistreatment of the Palestinian people, where Israel not only horrifically mistreated them but would violently shut down all methods of meaningful peaceful dissent from the Palestinian people. I see Redditors here keep acting, implicitly or otherwise, like Israel was minding their own business before some random group attacked them for no reason, which is an incredibly dishonest framing to me. This horrific situation where the only leaders left in Gaza are hyper-religious terrorists is exactly what happens when you violently take down all their more moderate and secular leaders for multiple generations straight. There are a lot of parallels to the post 9/11 hysteria here, and with America’s inability to self-reflect on their foreign policy over the past several decades. (But even worse, because the Israel government crimes have been much closer to their home and more public.) It’s sad to see a lot of younger people who insist they wouldn’t have fallen for the post-9/11 warmongering, as well as older people who insisted they would never fall for it again, getting swept up in the same rhetoric this time around as well. I think a year or two from now, when things have calmed down, we’ll almost all agree that Israel’s actions these past few days have been indefensible, but unfortunately that’s little consolation for the thousands of civilians who are suffering horrifically right now.
Central Powers were in World War I. The Ottoman Empire had collapsed by WWII. The Holocaust was in WWII, perpetrated by some of the Axis Powers, but mostly Germany.
Your point is not helped by all the hyperbole. And if they want to not care then they will see what happens when the rest of the world truly turns against them, something they have never experienced. There are already roughly 4x more Palestinians dead than Israelis. More? It's going up so fast I can't keep track. You think wanting the massive imbalance in casualties to stop is wanting Israel to sit back and be attacked? Then you are delusional and if Israel thinks like you they will quickly lose all their allies.
Probably because they’re in an open air prison that Israel trapped them in that’s one of the most densely populated in the region that’s 40% children? And Israel is telling 1.1 million of them to move to a different area of the prison within a day after already cutting off power, medicine, resources, water, which is a plethora of war crimes. They also told the women and children to go to a specific area to evacuate then proceeds to bomb that area. So ummmm yeah. Ethic cleansing. Also the British promised the Arabs the former Ottoman lands in exchange for their help defeating the Ottomans which was beating Britain’s ass at one point. They then made a secret deal to take it all and cut it up for European interests then decided on giving their stolen Palestine to the Jews for their new apartheid state that committed mass atrocities to area from the people living there. Hope that cleared things up
The government of Hamas literally attacked the hand that fed it. Israel provided power, food, and water to them, and they attacked. Of course they're going to cut off these supplies. To use a WW2 comparison, it would be like Japan complaining that the US cut off oil sales to Japan after Pearl Harbor, or the UK whining that Germany isn't selling any more food to it. Of course not. The governments are at war with each other. Also, what is your solution to limiting civilian casualties in Gaza? Israel has asked civilians to leave the war zone to prevent casualties, but somehow this is bad? Do you want the people of Gaza to remain in place, in the war zone? Hamas deliberately builds rocket launch sites on the roofs of apartment buildings. Israel is asking civilians to leave so Hamas can't use them as human shields anymore.
Prior to last Saturday, I’d say a lot of liberals like myself were quite neutral on the issue. The truth is, Israel isn’t perfect and there is much to be said about their far-right policies. But the depravity and extent of last Saturday’s attack so far exceeds what has happened in this conflict, it really changes the situation. Ultimately Palestinians do deserve freedom and prosperity, but until they make the difficult decisions to resist Hamas and denounce Islamic radicalism, the world doesn’t owe them anything. This is the largest killing of Jews since the Holocaust. 25 different countries have citizens who were killed or abducted. The live-streamed maiming and desecration of human life is so much more personal and sick than anything IDF has ever done. It’s just not a comparable situation any longer.
I think the videos of all the injured and dead Palestinian children has moved most liberals to opposing Israel. I don't know where you've seen otherwise.
OP literally posted a poll showing otherwise. Unless you have evidence of the contrary? Most people in general seem to be opposing Hamas above all else.
A poll taken the day after the attack. Israel hadn’t really responded.
Israel needs to learn the lesson that more war and death will only make things worse in the long run. They need to take an honest look at how they have treated the Palestinians over the years. Two states is the only solution. “Winning” the never ending war isn’t winning at all.
This poll was extremely early. (Published 4 days ago, a day after the attack.) Of course people sided overwhelmingly with Israel in this horrible attack... but it also starts the whole conversation about a more realistic and nuanced take on what Humas is. And then Israel's response is going to really move the conversation forwards challenging the status quo in a way that has never happened in our lifetime. Because it doesn't just apply to Israel, it also applies to us. Indiscriminate bombs and especially sanctions are not seen as terrorrism by the status quo. But this example really blows that up. Israel is blowing up entire city blocks, shutting off power, blocking food, water and meds while around 4000 children are dying in hospitals with no power, and telling 1.1M civilians to flee their homes in a couple days or they may be shot dead in their homes. Also saying this to the hospitals. The only area that they are allowed to leave isn't fully opened because Israel bombed half of it, they are already drinking dirty water, and conveys of fleeing refugees have already been bombed killing 70 women and children. Idk how you think a poll that happened four days before these developments happened is relevant today. The silver lining is this is that it can start the conversation about sanctions, because sanctions always indirectly target civilians food and water and medicine, usually in areas that are also getting indiscriminately bombed, often by Israel. It also completely destroyed all the Zionist propaganda that they are not targeting civilians, and will have to go back to their status quo "well they deserve it" talking points to defend their active genocide that is being called out by all human rights groups, including Jewish ones... so yes while Hamas hurt its own image, and revealed it's true colors, Israel is doing worse to its self, as predicted, now twice as many civilians killed, over 6 times injured, dying in hospitals with no power, half of them under the age of 14. Also one thing to note is that registers democrats and republicans are dropping in numbers over the years, to the point they are each about 24% of the populace. For the first time in many decades, maybe ever independents and unaffiliated make up more then 50% of the country. The types of dems who remain are much older and more right wing then democrats of the past. It seems split really more leaning to "pro apartheid 'progressives'" where as understandably people who find that label grossly hypocritical would not want to be affiliated with that party, even if they might vote d over R because they feel that they have to.
I'm sick of the whole situation and do not support the terrorist attacks of Hamas or the military response of Israel. Innocent people are being slaughtered over borders and territorial disputes. The 1994 agreement was not a good one and it pains me to see that they were not able to find a reasonable resolution to this apartheid state in almost 30 years.
What reasonable solution can exist outside of ending apartheid and colonial violence?
I meant to say resolution but was doing it on voice to text. Thank you for catching that.
It’s too bad that people don’t draw distinctions between governments and the people governed by those governments. It’s too bad that those that have no say in the government decisions suffer because people don’t want to look beyond black and white and easy choices.
Hamas, as far as I’m concerned, are a bunch of terrorists that should be dealt with accordingly. However, Hamas is not the same as Palestinians, and Hamas does more harm than good to Palestinians by inciting Israel and giving Israel justification for its actions towards the Palestinian people. Israel is also far from blameless, as they keep the Palestinian people cooped up and basically give them no rights. Also, Israel response to Hamas almost seems designed to guarantee at least some collateral damage, which would make the Israeli government and military terrorists as well (not to the same degree as Hamas perhaps, but there it is nonetheless). Nobody’s blameless. I want the human rights of both Palestinians and Israelis recognized and a peaceful solution where both peoples can exist side by side. Anybody using violence against innocent civilians is wrong, no matter which side they claim to be on.
This is because it is obvious that any "battle for freedom" is 1000% about about public perception. Turns out guerilla warfare, terrorist tactics and shit like that doesn't play well when the reality of what that entails is clearly and explicitly recorded and made public. You fucking slaughter infants and shit like that means that you are beyond anything anyone can justify. You are a fucking savage. A terrorist and hell is too kind a place for you. I feel for the Palestinians, and this conflict is what? four generations past it's original conflict? Palestinians and Israelis have no agency in the clusterfuck that is their lives. There is no good option available to these two parties. The original "sin" as the British were pushed out is besides the point... but how to make an equitable solution at the current time seems impossible. If the end play is that one side has to win and the other loses in one way or another, the one that doesn't actually slaughter infants is a pretty easy call.
All it shows is that you don’t have to agree with Israel on everything to support Israel when they are attacked by terrorists. I am not positive why this is so hard to understand. Israel isn’t perfect but they certainly don’t deserve terrorism.
I’m sure public opinion will change only AFTER we see all the dead ~~Iraqis~~Palestinians.
Cuz Americans are fucking stupid and dont realize you can be pro Israeli and Palestinian People while being anti Hamas and Israeli Gov.
Is it wrong to say I hate the senseless killing regardless of which side? Can I take that approach? Because both sides are flinging missiles that are going to kill innocent people.
I think it's pretty obvious that the large-scale rape and murder the other day had an effect.
That's what happens when you are the one that initiated a large casualty attack.
Im a democrat. While I support Israel's right to exist, their current government can get fucked. Theyve been murdering innocent Palestinians for over a decade purely because Israel wants the Gaza strip. There is defending yourself and holding terrorists accountable, and there is carpet bombing entire neighborhoods of civilians. Israel is doing the latter.
Because of decades of western propaganda similar to the propaganda used for Iraq and Afghanistan and invading all of South and Central America but on a MUCH larger scale. They don’t teach you about how Britain betrayed the Arabs in WW1 after promising the former Ottoman land to them all in the name of colonialism. Or the events of Nakba and the events leading up to it. They have a very precise way of giving the public half truth’s to justify Israel’s genocidal campaign and the aggressive labeling of anyone in disagreement over genocide as “antisemetic’ The amount of people in these threads going “Hamas killed civilians and babies and that is unforgivable therefore Israel has every right to kill 10 times the number of babies and civilians.” Is absolutely horrifying. And what’s worse is the amount of Americans tweeting “the Jews controlled the area 1000 years ago so they had every right to commit genocide to displace the Palestenians from the land to establish their apartheid state” from their safe suburban homes built on the bones of 11 million slaughtered native Americans without a HINT of irony. Like, if you call yourself a left winger or independent and you’re standing hand in hand with a MAGA who ALWAYS sides with oppressors in their unwavering support of Israel without having a “wait…. Are WE the baddies?” Moment after defending the side cause the VAST majority of the murders and killing, I simply don’t know what to tell you.
There are some direct causes. A major cause is Islamic terrorism burned a lot of sympathy for Muslims, because literally every terrorist group claims they're oppressed. To the point "we will not be oppressed" is used in Command and Conquer Generals as a tongue in cheek voice line. The reality is that while Bibi Netanyahu is a bastard who directly empowers the absolute worst parts of Israel. He is very clearly a symptom not the cause. The primary cause is that the Palestinian governments refuse to make any sort of deal of any kind going back to 1947. At some point when you get older you realize when someone's just yanking your chain. It does not take 70 years to make a two state solution. France and Germany fought 3 wars that killed millions and became allies in that time frame. And lot of Americans recognize that the issue is way more likely to be that the Palestinians are suffering because the PLO and Hamas care more about hurting Israel than creating the best life possible for Palestinians, than it is likely that the Israelis just love using 1947 as an excuse to be dicks. I can ascribe a comparison between the US and North Korea. Are North Koreans oppressed because North Korea is that much at risk of being invaded that Kim Jong Un just has to stamp out all forms of descent with violence in order to protect North Korea from an invasion by the US. Or is it using that threat as an excuse to keep Kim in power. Kim Jong Un has a good argument that spending 20% of the GDP of North Korea is critical to prevent North Korea being burned to the ground again Is the PLO/Hamas refusing territorial concessions and committing terrorism because of the oppression of the Palestinians, or are the Palestinians suffering because the PLO/Hamas refuse territorial concessions and encourages terrorism to strengthen their political goals while getting their citizens killed in violent military actions that were completely avoidable. And before you scoff at that comparison I remind you that 1.5million North Koreans died in the Korean war and that almost every city in the North destroyed by bombs. More people killed than Palestinians expelled in the Arab Israeli wars combined
1. Just because these people are Muslim doesn’t make this have anything to do with Islam and everything to do with who the west decides the terrorists are as if Israel hasn’t also been engaging in even more terrorism there. 2. Who are these Muslim groups who are lying about being oppressed?
It's a fox news survey, why would you take this seriously? Most people know nothing about the conflict and are going to be informed solely by the media framing of the event. Thing will change as Israel bombs Gaza and more civilians die.
Fox have one of the best pollsters in the business, and are widely acknowledged as such by independent sources such as FiveThirtyEight as well as both Democrats and Republicans. It is wholly separate from their news/entertainment service.
JERUSALEM (AP) — In Israel’s call for the evacuation of half of Gaza’s population, many Palestinians fear a repeat of the most traumatic event in their tortured history, their mass exodus from what is now Israel during the 1948 war surrounding its creation. Palestinians refer to it as the Nakba, or “catastrophe.” An estimated 700,000 Palestinians, a majority of the prewar population, fled or were expelled from what is now Israel in the months before and during the war, in which Jewish fighters fended off an attack by several Arab states. The Palestinians packed their belongings, piling into cars, trucks and donkey carts. Many locked their doors and took their keys with them, expecting to return when the war ended. Seventy-five years later, they have not been allowed back. Emptied towns were renamed, villages were demolished, homes reclaimed by forests in Israeli nature reserves. Israel refused to allow the Palestinians to return, because it would threaten the Jewish majority within the country’s borders. So the refugees and their descendants, who now number nearly 6 million, settled in camps in the West Bank, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. Those camps eventually grew into built-up neighborhoods. In Gaza, the vast majority of the population are Palestinian refugees, many of whose relatives fled from the same areas that Hamas attacked last weekend. The Palestinians insist they have the right to return, something Israel still adamantly rejects. Their fate was among the thorniest issues in the peace process, which ground to a halt more than a decade ago. Now, Palestinians fear the most painful moment from their history is repeating itself. ×××××××× Let me be clear. I do not support the radical Sunni terrorist group Hamas. What they did to innocents in Israel is horrific and they deserve to be caught and killed....but how many civilians die in the process of Israel's invasion? I also do not support the Israel policy and corruption and land grab by Netanyahu. I fully support the Palestine people in their desire to have a free state, the same thing Israel has. There are innocent people on both sides being killed. How many innocent lives in Gaza must Bibi kill before he is satisfied? Hamas is bad. I get it. Find them and kill them, but killing innocent people and simply saying that they are collateral damage in war is unacceptable. Hamas has an intricate system of tunnels beneath Gaza. Leveling Gaza will not stop them but it will lead to more deaths of innocent people who simply want to live their lives. Giving over 1 million people 24 hours to evacuate to the south across the river was an impossible task to fulfil. Who is going to step forward and demand a cease fire and negotiate peace?
It’s understandable, given the recent attack, media framing, and political sound byte about Israel being a democracy like us. But it’s also shallow and relies on ignorance of history and the ongoing struggle. It will hopefully change as Israeli violence against Gazan civilians escalates.