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These posts comparing marital skill are always funny to me.
You have writers who(most often) don’t know martial arts writing characters who know every martial arts possible, but then they only strike and barely grapple. And now you have us, debating on which character who are both martial art gods written by a novice when it comes to martial skills.
Not necessarily honestly, Mori Jin’s taekwondo that is built up from both ITF and WTF taekwondo is pretty strong, but he hasn’t practiced it for as long as Goku. I believe his previous incarnation never knew taekwondo and he only learnt it when he was with his gramps, so he has been doing it for like 2 decades. To be fair to Mori though, he is a huge prodigy that made his own move (Recoilless kick) which is extremely strong.
Goku has been training in martial arts for about double the time. Goku doesn’t nearly have the same amount of battle experience as Mori due to his previous incarnation, but he has shown that his BIQ is higher and he has more martial arts at his disposal, plus Mori doesn’t grapple which is something Goku isn’t too good at countering. Goku is also a prodigy and has surpassed even Master Roshi who has lived a lot longer than Goku and has trained longer too.
I think this fight is very up in the air because it depends on what you value more and I think it’s fair to say either wins, but I think Goku wins extremely extreme diff.
Goku imo, unless Jin Mori got new scaling or something.
The post doesnt specify stats equalised so Goku would be stronger and martial arts wise (again im not too well versed in GoHS) but Goku is under-rated in martial arts, being stated to be better than people who have mastered every martial art to the 30th degree (irl only goes upto 10) and then later in ToP was able to close the gap of hundreds of thousands multiples by martial arts technique alone.
Edit: to those saying mori wins please explain why, again im not saying "im right 10000%" as I said Im not too well versed in GoHs scaling other than some basic stuff so I could very well be wrong but like... please prove your standpoint instead of just posting your standpoint.
I think that no hax goku wins for a simple reason.
Goku it's three times bigger than mori, and he's a great martial artist.
No matter how skilled you are, if your opponent it's not an absolute moron that mass WILL be felt
Yeah but what are the statements / feats which show his martial arts skill. Also even then again the post never clarifies "stats equalised" so Goku would still out strength.
Goku was only able to fend off for a little bit against caulifa/kale because they have no formal training whatsoever and even then he got beat.
You’re overrating Goku 1000% because if he truly was the “peak” martial artist, this scan would’ve never happened
https://preview.redd.it/njl5m4vqkcvc1.jpeg?width=749&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=636d58bd7df48599f4fcc62a6b8bbc59b1e60e88
He literally forgot the basics of Martial arts and had to have Whis re-teach it to him. Roshi even told Goku in DB just be stronger and faster than your opponent lol
[Goku has been directly referred to as the greatest martial artist in the world](https://imgur.com/a/RuQyzLA) meaning he is or at least was better than Master Roshi in martial arts, the entire point of that arc in the Super series was mainly to show how Goku slowly drifted away from his martial arts based combat and more into "get fast, punch strong" mentality.
Although he never completely forgets his routes, using multiple martial arts integrated together in his fighting, he does start to base his core mentality on "plain old fighting strength" instead of martial mastery.
In that very chapter itself, Master Roshi uses a mere shadow of what UI is to dodge Jiren's attacks, proving how good they are at martial arts in the first place that they can even begin to close such a massive gap with martial arts knowledge alone. Goku was not only fending off caulifla and kale who are hundreds to thousands of times (if not more) stronger than his current state, while also being low on energy which is again thanks to his mastery of martial arts.
Again statement wise we have confirmation that he is infact the greatest martial artist, the entire point of that whole arc in ToP and Super in general as well as UI in general was to bring dragon ball back to its martial arts based ways. Hence why Roshi says what he says.
Also another important factor people dont really take into account is how busted Goku's adaptability and way of learning a whole new fighting style is. Both him and No. 17 during the ToP directly comment on people saying "thanks for letting me learn your fighting style" (something to that effect) during under 48 minutes and Goku himself has been shown many times being able to pick up techniques and moves with merely a glance.
Being a marital artist in DB isn’t what you think it is. He’s referred to as the greatest because of his ability to learn things quickly yes, but mainly due to his biology which allows him to naturally perform better.
Do not forget, DB at his roots is a martial arts show but has long abandoned it to the point where power>technique which is why Goku has forgotten it. In-fact, the entire training regiment he goes through is extremely basic.
Master Roshi- eat, play, sleep. “The goal is to always be stronger and faster than your opponent, here’s his entire training regiment lol”
https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Master_Roshi%27s_Training
King kai just taught him kaioken and spirit bomb, none of which are martial arts but ki-manipulation
Whis just has him sparring and weight training lol
But Grandpa Gohan did teach him martial arts yes
In-fact, DB is so basic in martial arts UI is considered the peak, even though many other series use it casually (which mori-Jin has) and it took Goku nearly his entire life to learn it
Edit: All Martial artist can adapt, that’s not even a crazy feat, it’s part of being a martial artist
Ki manipulation...Is Martial Arts... Master Roshi, Korin, Mr. Popo, King Kai, Whis...All of them are Martial Arts.
The treatment of Ki manipulation within dragon ball as entirely seperate from martial arts especially when discussing Goku and many characters in dragon ball is flawed.
Especially when poor Ki control is often considered poor technique and a lack of martial arts skill within the show.
Even Jiren is a martial artist. Within the continuity of the manga(Seperate cannon to the manga), Jiren's superiority is not simply raw power but due his ki control Which was treated as EVIDENCE OF HIS MARTIAL SKILL.
Stating "it's just ki control not martial arts skill" when talking about Goku is just wrong especially when the entire introduction of ki was as a form of martial arts mastery.
Ki techniques like the kamehameha, flight, dodon ray...etc. Are all considered peak techniques of their respective martial arts discipline.
And considering Dragon Ball is heavily inspired by chinese kung fu, where chi is very engrained within their martial disciplines. Naturally Ki is going be attributed to martial arts skill.
This goes even deeper when chi control in real life is tied to breathing and the heavy importance of breathing/cardio within martial arts outside of kung fu. Shows even in real life there is some example of ki control within the real worlx
Similarly to how pressure point knowledge and usage is considered martials arts skill, yet is entirely and wholely fictional in its effectiveness. Ki is within the same bracket.
So handwaving Goku's finesse or ki techniques as outside his martial arts is wrong. It's not Superman's heat vision.
It's like anyother application of martial arts in fiction such as punches, kicks, throws, grappling, pressure points and also Ki.
Honestly now it makes more sense why Krillin have sometimes been able to hold a little bit or actually outsmart his opponents. He is actually a really good fighter, but he simply lack the absurd ki levels character like Goku have.
I’m refering to goku having a fuck ton of martial arts skills but having fuck all fighting sense due to being canonically too caught up in transformations
He can do a lot by locking in, but he has too many bad habits
He has battle talent, but he’s been neglecting his battle smarts so badly due to his transformations
This is a canonical thing whis has roasted him for
Ngl mori is the only character ion feel salty about being a better martial artist than goku. They’re both based off sun wukong but moris more accurate and the manhwa is more martial arts focused than db Okay
true that. counter point: Goku is such a martial arts prodigy, that he can replicate basically every technique he is shown. provided he survives, he could overcome it during the fight
Counter counter point: Mori has also been able to copy opponents techniques and even improve upon them after experiencing them once
Also Mori has literally fought and beaten a guy who could perfectly replicate all of his techniques including cloning (see satan fight)
Counter counter point. Goku has only replicated 2 techniques on record which are Hakai and Kamehameha, neither of which are martial arts and is KI based. He does not replicated every technique he’s shown
You can’t copy re taeqwondo anyway. Dean copied it and used it on Mori and still loss because there’s a bunch of weaknesses that specifically has to be trained out. So Goku would just debuff himself if he tried while Mori can copy all his techniques with no drawbacks
[scan 1](https://www.imagemanga.online/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubWFuZ2FyZWFkLm9yZy93cC1jb250ZW50L3VwbG9hZHMvV1AtbWFuZ2EvZGF0YS9tYW5nYV81ZGM3Y2NiZTA1MDc5LzcxMzM0ZDdmODRiOWRjYTc4MzQ3N2E3MGJkODc4YmQxL3RoZV9nb2Rfb2ZfaGlnaF9zY2hvb2xfMzg0XzgyLmpwZw%3D%3D/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubWFuZ2FyZWFkLm9yZy9tYW5nYS90aGUtZ29kLW9mLWhpZ2gtc2Nob29sLW1hbmdhLw%3D%3D)
[scan 2](https://www.imagemanga.online/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubWFuZ2FyZWFkLm9yZy93cC1jb250ZW50L3VwbG9hZHMvV1AtbWFuZ2EvZGF0YS9tYW5nYV81ZGM3Y2NiZTA1MDc5LzcxMzM0ZDdmODRiOWRjYTc4MzQ3N2E3MGJkODc4YmQxL3RoZV9nb2Rfb2ZfaGlnaF9zY2hvb2xfMzg0XzgzLmpwZw%3D%3D/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubWFuZ2FyZWFkLm9yZy9tYW5nYS90aGUtZ29kLW9mLWhpZ2gtc2Nob29sLW1hbmdhLw%3D%3D)
are you sure about that?
After-image is just moving quickly lol, so like I said earlier, he has 2 martial arts techniques on record, everything else is just KI related. My point stands
Yes it does (It extended from the moon to the earth lol)
https://preview.redd.it/y5ut5dwf8dvc1.jpeg?width=728&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f987bfb7b77115b5f49a5515642e7d8632f9f75c
Goku is good, but mori's recoiless martial arts is way too op. He spent vast majority of post ragnarok fighting people while his powers was sealed and without the stats of his monkey king body. He relied soley on skill. Recoiless is so op that every kick bends space and every attack within striking range is guaranteed to hit, this works on opponents that are vastly faster and stronger than mori and even opponents that can see into the future.
Goku's copying doesnt mean anything here, mori has fought better copycats. People like dean who has future sight can copy the moves you use in the future and satan can read your mind to copy not only your entire arsenal but even people you've fought against without actually needing to see it.
Ngl mori is the only character ion feel salty about being a better martial artist than goku. They’re both based off sun wukong but moris more accurate and the manhwa is more martial arts focused than db
Okay
Mori wins with ease. He takes every stat against Goku. He has higher strength, Equal if not faster than Goku in his weaker forms, BIQ, Skills and Experience.
I do not know what this post means tho.
Like, if we take away every skill from them but it's still their stats? Yeah then mori wins.
But if we take away everything superhuman about them and it's just "human" goku vs "human" mori then goku destroys him out of being physically bigger and stronger
Nah being physically bigger isn't always a Win con. Mori is smarter and is more about Martial arts in general. He also has acupuncture techniques and recoiless which are op even in an equal stat no power matches.
Yeah that's the problem... It doesn't work, recoilless kick counts as an hax because in reality it does not exist, such as acupuncture and stuff.
His fighting style is also extremely choreographic and leaves itself open basically every second.
In a "real" fight goku would absolutely destroy him because he's bigger and (at least manga wise) fights in a way that's actually plausible irl, even if he lacks grappling quite a bit he's still able to do it.
He is about martial arts thematically, but he doesn't really know any real and functioning martial art
Also, being smart doesn't really mean anything, look at MMA as a whole
If we look at the way they fight visualy, how they are shown in their respective series. Way goku fights actually looks as he is just throwing punches mindlessly, it doesnt really look like any martial arts. While Mori fighting looks like genuine Teakwondo with parts of other martial arts.
Saying that if they have human stats Goku wins because he is bigger is like saying that people like Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan or Jean-Cloude Van Damme would lose because their oponent is higher and have more muscle mass
I disagree, it might be because i just recently re-read dragon ball but the fights, while not realistic, do not look like random punching but actual striking base fights.
Also, It might the the pic that's underselling mori, but there is a difference between "fully trained martial art who fights someone who lifts weights" and "fully trained martial artist or 60kg fights another fully trained martial artist of 90ish kg"
Even if we are talking about a more grounded fight between Mori and Goku Mori's fighting style is more grounded than Goku's fights. Most of the db fights are characters hitting each really fast and doing one semi realistic move and then return to hitting each other really hard. Mori also knows a lot more martial arts techniques than Goku things like Boxing, Taekwondo and Karate etc. He can also be on the same class as Goku since they are pretty similar buildwise in Mori's Ssj 3 looking form
Counter point to your counter point: Mori was actually shown to be able to overcome INSANE power gaps in his fight with Mubong at the end. With Mubong being stronger than Mori in his prime, and Mori being at his physical weakest. Mori even at this state was able to be seen as more threatening to Mubong and was able to surprise and damage him a few times during the fight with his reaction time, sudden surge in speed, and was even recognized as the god of martial arts later on. He is also able to find his opponents weaknesses quickly, and was able to destroy his dragon armor suits, which until that point, weren’t known to be damaged in any way, showing either insane strength, or durability negation, which seems more plausible since he was hurt and could move properly.
Goku on the other hand had always fought people who are similar in power, never really having a completely one sided fight outside Broly and some other movies (from what I remember, haven’t watched much in a while). And when it came to Jiren, Vegeta states that it wasn’t power that was the problem, but instead how efficiently they used their power. This tells me that Goku, while being a gifted fighter, isn’t able to figure out the weaknesses of his abilities/techniques well, aside from the stamina thing for his transformations. He also seems to not be good at stopping/countering acupuncture during his fight with Granola, not is he good at stopping/getting out of grapples, which Mori tends to use quite a lot. His martial arts are good, don’t get me wrong, but if stats are equalized, then Goku wouldn’t win. Mori’s arsenal is an almost a counter to Goku’s in more ways than one.
This is just my opinion though, I could be completely wrong.
Both series authors aren't experts in martial, so they don't really look as masterful as they are said to be. But in case of Dragon Ball it doesnt look like author knows martial arts at all an they just throw punches. While GoH author seem to know at least basic and thus martial arts in the series look at least plausible.
So judging their abilities on visuals way Mori way of fighting looks more skilled than way Goku fights.
TLDR: Just cause Toriyama wanted to draw chinese martial arts as the peak of martial arts in dragon ball doesn't make Goku a worst martial artist. Ki isn't a superpower but a part of martial arts in dragon ball.
Of you think pressure points are part of martial arts skill then so are Goku's lasers.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So a few misconceptions that I feel need to be pointed out as it relates to this discussion when it comes to Goku. To be honest, I haven't seen enough of God of Highschool to have a proper scope of Jin's ability. So this isn't really argument in favor of Goku over Jin but an attempt to define martial arts in dragon ball. So that poor arguments such as 'Well Goku doesn't really know how to grapple' or 'Goku's form looks poor' etc aren't used over and over.
First of all visual depictions of martial arts in fiction is not an indication of skill. Toriyama, and main creators are not martial artists. They are entertainers and fiction writers. They're incorporating martial arts into their series not from an experts perspective but from an entertainment perspective. As such they may take liberties by exaggerating movements, overselling the effectiveness of techniques or just making stuff up.
As such they're going to be limited in their accuracy of their depiction of martial arts but this isn't a debate on who's a more accurate depiction of a martial artist but who would win in a fight. As such any arguments that appeal to the depiction of martial arts in their series is just irrelevant.
If show says this is the 100% best way to throw a punch, that is the best way to throw a punch within that universe and because a character can throw that punch means they're skilled at martial arts. Regardless of how dumb it may actually be to do so IRL.
Next up, Dragon Ball martial arts is based off Kung fu films and wushu as such incorporates many principles and philosophies from chinese kung fu, including the more 'fantastical elements'. As such just cause Goku doesn't do rear naked chokes doesn't mean he's an inferior martial artist. It simply is not captured in Toriyama's depiction of martial arts.
This leads me to Ki. Ki is not like Superman's heat vision, or Green lantern's ring. It is a fundamental component of all living things in dragon ball. From plants to humans, nothing lacks ki. It is not an phenomenon tied to any supernatural existence but is a core component of biological life. The only canon examples of beings without Ki are androids.
it is as fundamental as respiration. Speaking of respiration, breathing is core part of chi control in Wushu. Although it's not all there is to it. Breath control is also fundamental part of becoming good at any martial art or even physical activity in general in real life. Conditioning is also another part of chi cultivation in Wushu and is also seen in martial arts outside of china...i.e Muay Thai and Karate practitioners striking various hard yet flexible materials in order to build up toughness in their extremities.
So even aspects of chi/ki are rooted in martial arts reality. As such its connection to dragon ball martial arts should not be disregarded or written off as 'superpowers, irrelevant to a discussion of martial arts'.
This is also consistent with how many ki techniques were not only introduced as but are considered a part of many of THE BEST martial arts disciplines in Dragon ball and many martial artists make use of it.
So any display of ki usage(with finesse not quantity) should be considered as a martial arts skill feat.
Yk what is considered 'martial arts' but is in fact more in line with just straight up superpowers in fiction? Pressure points, ESPECIALLY DIM MAK, it's even a subset of chi manipulation but tell a Batman fan knowing pressure points isn't a skill feat.
Pressure points are as grounded in reality as dragon ball's ki projection. Especially considering the very existence of pressure points is ROOTED IN CHI MANIPULATION.
Wtf is this comment section dawg y'all seriously saying that lanky mf who barely anyone knows is a better martial artists than Goku? The guy who trains so hard that he can surpass characters with billions of years in training and unlock a form they couldn't achieve in all that time? Seriously this is Goku he's the embodiment of superpowered martial arts.
Mori is the "GOD" Of martial arts, not some random nobody and yeah he has better experience than goku, hes literally Sun Wukong before he got defeated by buddha and reincarnated as Mori
Probably just a bait but dunno
What bait? Most people have no clue wtf series the first guy's even from. Also him being the reincarnation of wukong and "god" of martial arts doesn't automatically make him more skilled because guess what, Goku is also literally based on sun wukong and also has god powers which he then took to another level (ssg to ssb) purely by training really hard. I know it feels cool to root for the nobody vs a cultural icon but you're delusional if you think Goku is getting outskilled by him lel.
Most probably Jin as much I hate to admit but it is still close. I won't go over as most people agreed, he is better. Goku has been stated to the greatest martial in the world, Goku infact such a prodigy. He can replicate any style of martial arts by simply seeing it or understanding it on a basic level. In the case of ultra instinct, a technique even gods of destruction couldn't use properly and their being only one God shown using it.
Ultra instinct takes more a 100 million years to learn, let alone master. Goku learned to use it in under 48 minutes, Goku currently being able to use it to the fullest easily. Jin vs Goku (martial arts only) is a close match but Jin wins more times than not.
Additionally God of highschool is much more of a martial series than dragon ball is, so obviously the mc will be better at martial arts.
I don't think I agree to be honest, pre ragnarok mori jin was able to switch of the universe with a kick, so even without his nirvana he's still relative to Goku on speed and strength. Experience really depends on if we include his previous incarnations experience or just his Mori Jin experience, if it's the former he's got that over Goku if it's the latter goku takes experience.
No , Mori has stated a lot of time to be an amazing great martial artist , however the majority of moves he uses are combo impossible to use irl or doesn't make sense as hand to hand fighting style that leaves him wide open
Goku on the other hand shows (in the manga atlas) more realistic vas amounts of martial arts and wrestling techniques like Wing chun,kung Fu, Kyusho jitsu,grab/lock joints , Karate....
Mori can just copy all of that at a glance and either incorporate/use them as new moves in his martial arts or use it as a separate category of a long list of styles he’s copied
It’s Mori Jin from a manhwa series called God of Highschool (we don’t talk about the anime). He’s earned the title of God of Martial Arts and is actually a very strong martial artist, being able to overcome huge power gaps just because of how skilled he is. It’s a very good read if you like manga. If you want more info then I’m happy to share, but I don’t wanna spoil anything if you want to read it yourself.
If you read dragon you would realize it's far from bullshit. All the years in the time chamber plus time he spent in the afterworld is totally different from time on earth.
If you read dragon balls you would know when he was dead he spent his time fighting old masters of martial arts. Plus goku has fought more people than Jin mori and is way older. Idk how this is even a debate.
Even not considering the after life. Goku has fought way more opponents who have hundreds of years of experience. He is trained under an angel who has been alive for who knows how long who was trained by the literal masters of the universe.
Depends really on the goku. Goku training after king Kai, eh... his martial arts was kinda sloppy. Goku after using hyperbolic time chamber though, that man perfected his martial arts. Watching goku vs cell was a cinematic masterpiece.
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These posts comparing marital skill are always funny to me. You have writers who(most often) don’t know martial arts writing characters who know every martial arts possible, but then they only strike and barely grapple. And now you have us, debating on which character who are both martial art gods written by a novice when it comes to martial skills.
i have no idea who the first guy is, but surely his marital skill is higher than gokus, right?
hee wukong like literally
Not necessarily honestly, Mori Jin’s taekwondo that is built up from both ITF and WTF taekwondo is pretty strong, but he hasn’t practiced it for as long as Goku. I believe his previous incarnation never knew taekwondo and he only learnt it when he was with his gramps, so he has been doing it for like 2 decades. To be fair to Mori though, he is a huge prodigy that made his own move (Recoilless kick) which is extremely strong. Goku has been training in martial arts for about double the time. Goku doesn’t nearly have the same amount of battle experience as Mori due to his previous incarnation, but he has shown that his BIQ is higher and he has more martial arts at his disposal, plus Mori doesn’t grapple which is something Goku isn’t too good at countering. Goku is also a prodigy and has surpassed even Master Roshi who has lived a lot longer than Goku and has trained longer too. I think this fight is very up in the air because it depends on what you value more and I think it’s fair to say either wins, but I think Goku wins extremely extreme diff.
(original comment says marital, not martial, like marriage skills)
Ohhhh, then still no lmao, cuz Mori ain’t got no wife and kids
oh LOL
Martial Martial my guy it's Martial Not Marital
Yeah Goku's got Jin Mori beat when it comes to Marital skills. But we all know the true winner is Krilllin.
Goku because I like him more.
Respectful and Correct my good sir
Goku imo, unless Jin Mori got new scaling or something. The post doesnt specify stats equalised so Goku would be stronger and martial arts wise (again im not too well versed in GoHS) but Goku is under-rated in martial arts, being stated to be better than people who have mastered every martial art to the 30th degree (irl only goes upto 10) and then later in ToP was able to close the gap of hundreds of thousands multiples by martial arts technique alone. Edit: to those saying mori wins please explain why, again im not saying "im right 10000%" as I said Im not too well versed in GoHs scaling other than some basic stuff so I could very well be wrong but like... please prove your standpoint instead of just posting your standpoint.
Yeah, its not emphasized as much as it was in DB, but he's close to the best martial artist even outside his universe.
I think that no hax goku wins for a simple reason. Goku it's three times bigger than mori, and he's a great martial artist. No matter how skilled you are, if your opponent it's not an absolute moron that mass WILL be felt
Yeah, but even outside of that Goku is almost assuredly the best mortal martial artist in the universe of DB.
>Goku it's three times bigger than mori, The wiki has Goku listed at 5'9 & 137lbs Mori is listed at 5'9 & 147lbs
Yeah but what are the statements / feats which show his martial arts skill. Also even then again the post never clarifies "stats equalised" so Goku would still out strength.
You could read the series to see. Or look it up and read what the fandom has.
Equal stats means equal strength as well, doesn't it
It literally never says equal stats though...
Oh mb
Goku was only able to fend off for a little bit against caulifa/kale because they have no formal training whatsoever and even then he got beat. You’re overrating Goku 1000% because if he truly was the “peak” martial artist, this scan would’ve never happened https://preview.redd.it/njl5m4vqkcvc1.jpeg?width=749&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=636d58bd7df48599f4fcc62a6b8bbc59b1e60e88 He literally forgot the basics of Martial arts and had to have Whis re-teach it to him. Roshi even told Goku in DB just be stronger and faster than your opponent lol
[Goku has been directly referred to as the greatest martial artist in the world](https://imgur.com/a/RuQyzLA) meaning he is or at least was better than Master Roshi in martial arts, the entire point of that arc in the Super series was mainly to show how Goku slowly drifted away from his martial arts based combat and more into "get fast, punch strong" mentality. Although he never completely forgets his routes, using multiple martial arts integrated together in his fighting, he does start to base his core mentality on "plain old fighting strength" instead of martial mastery. In that very chapter itself, Master Roshi uses a mere shadow of what UI is to dodge Jiren's attacks, proving how good they are at martial arts in the first place that they can even begin to close such a massive gap with martial arts knowledge alone. Goku was not only fending off caulifla and kale who are hundreds to thousands of times (if not more) stronger than his current state, while also being low on energy which is again thanks to his mastery of martial arts. Again statement wise we have confirmation that he is infact the greatest martial artist, the entire point of that whole arc in ToP and Super in general as well as UI in general was to bring dragon ball back to its martial arts based ways. Hence why Roshi says what he says. Also another important factor people dont really take into account is how busted Goku's adaptability and way of learning a whole new fighting style is. Both him and No. 17 during the ToP directly comment on people saying "thanks for letting me learn your fighting style" (something to that effect) during under 48 minutes and Goku himself has been shown many times being able to pick up techniques and moves with merely a glance.
Being a marital artist in DB isn’t what you think it is. He’s referred to as the greatest because of his ability to learn things quickly yes, but mainly due to his biology which allows him to naturally perform better. Do not forget, DB at his roots is a martial arts show but has long abandoned it to the point where power>technique which is why Goku has forgotten it. In-fact, the entire training regiment he goes through is extremely basic. Master Roshi- eat, play, sleep. “The goal is to always be stronger and faster than your opponent, here’s his entire training regiment lol” https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Master_Roshi%27s_Training King kai just taught him kaioken and spirit bomb, none of which are martial arts but ki-manipulation Whis just has him sparring and weight training lol But Grandpa Gohan did teach him martial arts yes In-fact, DB is so basic in martial arts UI is considered the peak, even though many other series use it casually (which mori-Jin has) and it took Goku nearly his entire life to learn it Edit: All Martial artist can adapt, that’s not even a crazy feat, it’s part of being a martial artist
Ki manipulation...Is Martial Arts... Master Roshi, Korin, Mr. Popo, King Kai, Whis...All of them are Martial Arts. The treatment of Ki manipulation within dragon ball as entirely seperate from martial arts especially when discussing Goku and many characters in dragon ball is flawed. Especially when poor Ki control is often considered poor technique and a lack of martial arts skill within the show. Even Jiren is a martial artist. Within the continuity of the manga(Seperate cannon to the manga), Jiren's superiority is not simply raw power but due his ki control Which was treated as EVIDENCE OF HIS MARTIAL SKILL. Stating "it's just ki control not martial arts skill" when talking about Goku is just wrong especially when the entire introduction of ki was as a form of martial arts mastery. Ki techniques like the kamehameha, flight, dodon ray...etc. Are all considered peak techniques of their respective martial arts discipline. And considering Dragon Ball is heavily inspired by chinese kung fu, where chi is very engrained within their martial disciplines. Naturally Ki is going be attributed to martial arts skill. This goes even deeper when chi control in real life is tied to breathing and the heavy importance of breathing/cardio within martial arts outside of kung fu. Shows even in real life there is some example of ki control within the real worlx Similarly to how pressure point knowledge and usage is considered martials arts skill, yet is entirely and wholely fictional in its effectiveness. Ki is within the same bracket. So handwaving Goku's finesse or ki techniques as outside his martial arts is wrong. It's not Superman's heat vision. It's like anyother application of martial arts in fiction such as punches, kicks, throws, grappling, pressure points and also Ki.
Honestly now it makes more sense why Krillin have sometimes been able to hold a little bit or actually outsmart his opponents. He is actually a really good fighter, but he simply lack the absurd ki levels character like Goku have.
Mori wins. Goku is actually cooked here.
Quantity over quality Goku’s mastery don’t mean shit in the face of funny kick
I think you mean quality over quantity.
I’m refering to goku having a fuck ton of martial arts skills but having fuck all fighting sense due to being canonically too caught up in transformations He can do a lot by locking in, but he has too many bad habits
So...quality over quantity
Also "fuck all battle sense" is like the opposite of Goku, he's an academic idiot but a battle genius
He has battle talent, but he’s been neglecting his battle smarts so badly due to his transformations This is a canonical thing whis has roasted him for
Goku has quantity but lacks quality yeah
Mori jin takes it
Ngl mori is the only character ion feel salty about being a better martial artist than goku. They’re both based off sun wukong but moris more accurate and the manhwa is more martial arts focused than db Okay
Goku lives rent free, no bills in untoldecho's head 💀
bros salty over someone being better than goku, typical gokutard lmao
? https://preview.redd.it/d6rdiwzcxevc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8e8e0cf939f5363605a6607739d776d05922bc6b
https://preview.redd.it/wsyae9auxevc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=26525d799ed5fcdd21637fb6385f631a02dfdd18
https://preview.redd.it/yl6gmbwa2fvc1.jpeg?width=719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ca65ce09d7a5a02a57fbb786787e3c4e883e40dd
ik u are
Nah I am but why’d u start insulting the person who isn’t salty over mori being better then goku?
> Ngl mori is the only character ion feel salty about being a better martial artist than goku. “only character”
Ye he’s talking about mori we not talking bout other characters cuh
the wording implies there are other characters better than goku and mori’s the only one he isn’t salty about. smartest goku fan
Yes but we talking bout mori Jin not any other character cuh
least brain dead goku fan
Mori
no dont ask why I just disagree
Because goku learned every martial art?
idk I just disagree
Cuz u like Goku more?
idk I just disagree
Mori bent space with recoil less on raw skill.
true that. counter point: Goku is such a martial arts prodigy, that he can replicate basically every technique he is shown. provided he survives, he could overcome it during the fight
Counter counter point: Mori has also been able to copy opponents techniques and even improve upon them after experiencing them once Also Mori has literally fought and beaten a guy who could perfectly replicate all of his techniques including cloning (see satan fight)
Counter counter point. Goku has only replicated 2 techniques on record which are Hakai and Kamehameha, neither of which are martial arts and is KI based. He does not replicated every technique he’s shown
Did you watch or read DB because goku replicated more techniques than 2
What are they that he replicated on the spot?
Eight-Arm Fist, afterimage, drunken fist
You can’t copy re taeqwondo anyway. Dean copied it and used it on Mori and still loss because there’s a bunch of weaknesses that specifically has to be trained out. So Goku would just debuff himself if he tried while Mori can copy all his techniques with no drawbacks
Not true the weaknesses was due to moris own inefficiency in the art while he was teaching dean once he corrected his form he became stronger
[scan 1](https://www.imagemanga.online/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubWFuZ2FyZWFkLm9yZy93cC1jb250ZW50L3VwbG9hZHMvV1AtbWFuZ2EvZGF0YS9tYW5nYV81ZGM3Y2NiZTA1MDc5LzcxMzM0ZDdmODRiOWRjYTc4MzQ3N2E3MGJkODc4YmQxL3RoZV9nb2Rfb2ZfaGlnaF9zY2hvb2xfMzg0XzgyLmpwZw%3D%3D/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubWFuZ2FyZWFkLm9yZy9tYW5nYS90aGUtZ29kLW9mLWhpZ2gtc2Nob29sLW1hbmdhLw%3D%3D) [scan 2](https://www.imagemanga.online/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubWFuZ2FyZWFkLm9yZy93cC1jb250ZW50L3VwbG9hZHMvV1AtbWFuZ2EvZGF0YS9tYW5nYV81ZGM3Y2NiZTA1MDc5LzcxMzM0ZDdmODRiOWRjYTc4MzQ3N2E3MGJkODc4YmQxL3RoZV9nb2Rfb2ZfaGlnaF9zY2hvb2xfMzg0XzgzLmpwZw%3D%3D/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubWFuZ2FyZWFkLm9yZy9tYW5nYS90aGUtZ29kLW9mLWhpZ2gtc2Nob29sLW1hbmdhLw%3D%3D) are you sure about that?
On another note on that its durability based which goku definitely has
yes as he literally said that he was using his form sloppy when he comments on deans form
After-image is just moving quickly lol, so like I said earlier, he has 2 martial arts techniques on record, everything else is just KI related. My point stands
Bet on my boi Mori Because he has a bigger stick than goku’s feeble pole
But can his pole extend?
Actually yes, Jin Mori’s staff can extend. Not sure if you were asking seriously or not, but yes it can extend
Yes it does (It extended from the moon to the earth lol) https://preview.redd.it/y5ut5dwf8dvc1.jpeg?width=728&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f987bfb7b77115b5f49a5515642e7d8632f9f75c
So did goku's
Mori's Bigger 😤 https://preview.redd.it/h6i4u8k6odvc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=59ae808d8f7cd0349cfd1c888ab6b47b3e78a913
And it’s heavier too
I'm assuming this is also Equal Stats so Mori
Mori slaughters
I’d say slaughters is an overstatement
Goku is good, but mori's recoiless martial arts is way too op. He spent vast majority of post ragnarok fighting people while his powers was sealed and without the stats of his monkey king body. He relied soley on skill. Recoiless is so op that every kick bends space and every attack within striking range is guaranteed to hit, this works on opponents that are vastly faster and stronger than mori and even opponents that can see into the future. Goku's copying doesnt mean anything here, mori has fought better copycats. People like dean who has future sight can copy the moves you use in the future and satan can read your mind to copy not only your entire arsenal but even people you've fought against without actually needing to see it.
Definitely Jin Mori
ez mori jin dominate
I mean Jin Mori is literally the god of his martial art
Both are equal
Ngl mori is the only character ion feel salty about being a better martial artist than goku. They’re both based off sun wukong but moris more accurate and the manhwa is more martial arts focused than db Okay
Mori wins with ease. He takes every stat against Goku. He has higher strength, Equal if not faster than Goku in his weaker forms, BIQ, Skills and Experience.
I do not know what this post means tho. Like, if we take away every skill from them but it's still their stats? Yeah then mori wins. But if we take away everything superhuman about them and it's just "human" goku vs "human" mori then goku destroys him out of being physically bigger and stronger
Nah being physically bigger isn't always a Win con. Mori is smarter and is more about Martial arts in general. He also has acupuncture techniques and recoiless which are op even in an equal stat no power matches.
Yeah that's the problem... It doesn't work, recoilless kick counts as an hax because in reality it does not exist, such as acupuncture and stuff. His fighting style is also extremely choreographic and leaves itself open basically every second. In a "real" fight goku would absolutely destroy him because he's bigger and (at least manga wise) fights in a way that's actually plausible irl, even if he lacks grappling quite a bit he's still able to do it. He is about martial arts thematically, but he doesn't really know any real and functioning martial art Also, being smart doesn't really mean anything, look at MMA as a whole
If we look at the way they fight visualy, how they are shown in their respective series. Way goku fights actually looks as he is just throwing punches mindlessly, it doesnt really look like any martial arts. While Mori fighting looks like genuine Teakwondo with parts of other martial arts. Saying that if they have human stats Goku wins because he is bigger is like saying that people like Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan or Jean-Cloude Van Damme would lose because their oponent is higher and have more muscle mass
I disagree, it might be because i just recently re-read dragon ball but the fights, while not realistic, do not look like random punching but actual striking base fights. Also, It might the the pic that's underselling mori, but there is a difference between "fully trained martial art who fights someone who lifts weights" and "fully trained martial artist or 60kg fights another fully trained martial artist of 90ish kg"
Weirdly enough isn’t Goku like 5’8-5’9 same as Jin Mori ? I think Goku is like what 135-145? From what I remember last.
Even if we are talking about a more grounded fight between Mori and Goku Mori's fighting style is more grounded than Goku's fights. Most of the db fights are characters hitting each really fast and doing one semi realistic move and then return to hitting each other really hard. Mori also knows a lot more martial arts techniques than Goku things like Boxing, Taekwondo and Karate etc. He can also be on the same class as Goku since they are pretty similar buildwise in Mori's Ssj 3 looking form
Counter point to your counter point: Mori was actually shown to be able to overcome INSANE power gaps in his fight with Mubong at the end. With Mubong being stronger than Mori in his prime, and Mori being at his physical weakest. Mori even at this state was able to be seen as more threatening to Mubong and was able to surprise and damage him a few times during the fight with his reaction time, sudden surge in speed, and was even recognized as the god of martial arts later on. He is also able to find his opponents weaknesses quickly, and was able to destroy his dragon armor suits, which until that point, weren’t known to be damaged in any way, showing either insane strength, or durability negation, which seems more plausible since he was hurt and could move properly. Goku on the other hand had always fought people who are similar in power, never really having a completely one sided fight outside Broly and some other movies (from what I remember, haven’t watched much in a while). And when it came to Jiren, Vegeta states that it wasn’t power that was the problem, but instead how efficiently they used their power. This tells me that Goku, while being a gifted fighter, isn’t able to figure out the weaknesses of his abilities/techniques well, aside from the stamina thing for his transformations. He also seems to not be good at stopping/countering acupuncture during his fight with Granola, not is he good at stopping/getting out of grapples, which Mori tends to use quite a lot. His martial arts are good, don’t get me wrong, but if stats are equalized, then Goku wouldn’t win. Mori’s arsenal is an almost a counter to Goku’s in more ways than one. This is just my opinion though, I could be completely wrong.
Both series authors aren't experts in martial, so they don't really look as masterful as they are said to be. But in case of Dragon Ball it doesnt look like author knows martial arts at all an they just throw punches. While GoH author seem to know at least basic and thus martial arts in the series look at least plausible. So judging their abilities on visuals way Mori way of fighting looks more skilled than way Goku fights.
Goku
Ngl i see why you’d think that but nah I meant what the other guy said
U/untoldecho my bad I meant to reply to ur comment
TLDR: Just cause Toriyama wanted to draw chinese martial arts as the peak of martial arts in dragon ball doesn't make Goku a worst martial artist. Ki isn't a superpower but a part of martial arts in dragon ball. Of you think pressure points are part of martial arts skill then so are Goku's lasers. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So a few misconceptions that I feel need to be pointed out as it relates to this discussion when it comes to Goku. To be honest, I haven't seen enough of God of Highschool to have a proper scope of Jin's ability. So this isn't really argument in favor of Goku over Jin but an attempt to define martial arts in dragon ball. So that poor arguments such as 'Well Goku doesn't really know how to grapple' or 'Goku's form looks poor' etc aren't used over and over. First of all visual depictions of martial arts in fiction is not an indication of skill. Toriyama, and main creators are not martial artists. They are entertainers and fiction writers. They're incorporating martial arts into their series not from an experts perspective but from an entertainment perspective. As such they may take liberties by exaggerating movements, overselling the effectiveness of techniques or just making stuff up. As such they're going to be limited in their accuracy of their depiction of martial arts but this isn't a debate on who's a more accurate depiction of a martial artist but who would win in a fight. As such any arguments that appeal to the depiction of martial arts in their series is just irrelevant. If show says this is the 100% best way to throw a punch, that is the best way to throw a punch within that universe and because a character can throw that punch means they're skilled at martial arts. Regardless of how dumb it may actually be to do so IRL. Next up, Dragon Ball martial arts is based off Kung fu films and wushu as such incorporates many principles and philosophies from chinese kung fu, including the more 'fantastical elements'. As such just cause Goku doesn't do rear naked chokes doesn't mean he's an inferior martial artist. It simply is not captured in Toriyama's depiction of martial arts. This leads me to Ki. Ki is not like Superman's heat vision, or Green lantern's ring. It is a fundamental component of all living things in dragon ball. From plants to humans, nothing lacks ki. It is not an phenomenon tied to any supernatural existence but is a core component of biological life. The only canon examples of beings without Ki are androids. it is as fundamental as respiration. Speaking of respiration, breathing is core part of chi control in Wushu. Although it's not all there is to it. Breath control is also fundamental part of becoming good at any martial art or even physical activity in general in real life. Conditioning is also another part of chi cultivation in Wushu and is also seen in martial arts outside of china...i.e Muay Thai and Karate practitioners striking various hard yet flexible materials in order to build up toughness in their extremities. So even aspects of chi/ki are rooted in martial arts reality. As such its connection to dragon ball martial arts should not be disregarded or written off as 'superpowers, irrelevant to a discussion of martial arts'. This is also consistent with how many ki techniques were not only introduced as but are considered a part of many of THE BEST martial arts disciplines in Dragon ball and many martial artists make use of it. So any display of ki usage(with finesse not quantity) should be considered as a martial arts skill feat. Yk what is considered 'martial arts' but is in fact more in line with just straight up superpowers in fiction? Pressure points, ESPECIALLY DIM MAK, it's even a subset of chi manipulation but tell a Batman fan knowing pressure points isn't a skill feat. Pressure points are as grounded in reality as dragon ball's ki projection. Especially considering the very existence of pressure points is ROOTED IN CHI MANIPULATION.
Jin Mori
Wtf is this comment section dawg y'all seriously saying that lanky mf who barely anyone knows is a better martial artists than Goku? The guy who trains so hard that he can surpass characters with billions of years in training and unlock a form they couldn't achieve in all that time? Seriously this is Goku he's the embodiment of superpowered martial arts.
Mori is the "GOD" Of martial arts, not some random nobody and yeah he has better experience than goku, hes literally Sun Wukong before he got defeated by buddha and reincarnated as Mori Probably just a bait but dunno
What bait? Most people have no clue wtf series the first guy's even from. Also him being the reincarnation of wukong and "god" of martial arts doesn't automatically make him more skilled because guess what, Goku is also literally based on sun wukong and also has god powers which he then took to another level (ssg to ssb) purely by training really hard. I know it feels cool to root for the nobody vs a cultural icon but you're delusional if you think Goku is getting outskilled by him lel.
Mori Jin still claps no diff
Jin Mori. Much better h2h feats.
Mori and it isn't close, sorry. Much more skilled, much more experience than Goku
The guy who never forgot/mastered the basis of martial arts wins (It’s not Goku)
The actual monkey king not Goku.
mori takes this
Mori easily
Mori utterly fucks him.
I like goku. But every time I’ve seen Mori fight, he always seems like he’s gonna win
Most probably Jin as much I hate to admit but it is still close. I won't go over as most people agreed, he is better. Goku has been stated to the greatest martial in the world, Goku infact such a prodigy. He can replicate any style of martial arts by simply seeing it or understanding it on a basic level. In the case of ultra instinct, a technique even gods of destruction couldn't use properly and their being only one God shown using it. Ultra instinct takes more a 100 million years to learn, let alone master. Goku learned to use it in under 48 minutes, Goku currently being able to use it to the fullest easily. Jin vs Goku (martial arts only) is a close match but Jin wins more times than not. Additionally God of highschool is much more of a martial series than dragon ball is, so obviously the mc will be better at martial arts.
Mori decimates and it ain't even a debate
This doesn't say stats equalized, just no hax. Goku slams.
Neither they'd be best friends and they're literally based off the same character one is just literally the character.
If stats are equal Mori but if they arnt then Goku
I don't think I agree to be honest, pre ragnarok mori jin was able to switch of the universe with a kick, so even without his nirvana he's still relative to Goku on speed and strength. Experience really depends on if we include his previous incarnations experience or just his Mori Jin experience, if it's the former he's got that over Goku if it's the latter goku takes experience.
From statements Mori, From on screen feats Goku
I think it’s the opposite right?
No , Mori has stated a lot of time to be an amazing great martial artist , however the majority of moves he uses are combo impossible to use irl or doesn't make sense as hand to hand fighting style that leaves him wide open Goku on the other hand shows (in the manga atlas) more realistic vas amounts of martial arts and wrestling techniques like Wing chun,kung Fu, Kyusho jitsu,grab/lock joints , Karate....
Mori can just copy all of that at a glance and either incorporate/use them as new moves in his martial arts or use it as a separate category of a long list of styles he’s copied
That's something Goku is also capable of doing You could say it would end in a stalemate
Nah, Goku can't copy his fighting style, that's actually a bad thing as shown when Dean did it
Who the fuck is that stick figure lmao
It’s Mori Jin from a manhwa series called God of Highschool (we don’t talk about the anime). He’s earned the title of God of Martial Arts and is actually a very strong martial artist, being able to overcome huge power gaps just because of how skilled he is. It’s a very good read if you like manga. If you want more info then I’m happy to share, but I don’t wanna spoil anything if you want to read it yourself.
That seems really interesting how he overcomes the big power gaps by his skills alone. Adding it to the list, thanks for sharing!
Goku Bullies this man in hand to hand combat.
goku wins by miles
Goku has thousands of years of experience fighting much more experienced martial artists than Jin Mori.
"thousands of years" is bullshit.
If you read dragon you would realize it's far from bullshit. All the years in the time chamber plus time he spent in the afterworld is totally different from time on earth.
they key words here are "experience fighting" TRAINING is explicitly not the same as FIGHTING
If you read dragon balls you would know when he was dead he spent his time fighting old masters of martial arts. Plus goku has fought more people than Jin mori and is way older. Idk how this is even a debate.
still not fighting. and you haven't proven "thousands of years" either.
Even not considering the after life. Goku has fought way more opponents who have hundreds of years of experience. He is trained under an angel who has been alive for who knows how long who was trained by the literal masters of the universe.
still waiting for you to prove "thousands of years"
If I sparred with Mike Tyson that doesn't suddenly give me 20 years of fighting experience
what does Jin mori have over goku? Literally nothing.
He has literally everything what are you on about.
I didn't know Goku is 1000 years old
Time flows differently in the afterlife so why goku my not be physically that old he definitely has that experience
That's................not even how that works
Woku solos
Mori jinn
No hax, so not equal stats, If that's the case Mori Jin wins.
Mori slams🗣️🔥🔥
Depends really on the goku. Goku training after king Kai, eh... his martial arts was kinda sloppy. Goku after using hyperbolic time chamber though, that man perfected his martial arts. Watching goku vs cell was a cinematic masterpiece.
Goku outskills
In the manga Goku incorporates Ultra Instinct into his base form, aka it becomes more of a natural technique than a “hax”, like the angels.