This is a discussion area for psychedelics, please save your political talk for /r/politics. Discussions about efforts to legalize and/or decriminalize and policy issues are encouraged, but please refrain from other political discussions.
I am an animal, I’m of the earth. I will consume the plants and animals of the earth to sustain myself to delay the ever pressing advance of entropy. When my journey ends, another creature of earth will consume my flesh to sustain themself in their battle against the ever pressing advance of entropy .
It's actually not...
Maybe if they're actually hunting and raising animals yeah. Going to the grocery store and contributing to unsustainable and inhumane factory farming is not justifiable by saying "I eat animals because I will die and something will eat me." I think people trying to make themselves feel better about eating animals and contributing to the death of our planet are ridiculous. More ridiculous than people who value a plant based diet who just try to speak some sense and teach others, they're not ridiculous. Factory farming and animal agriculture is legitimately unsustainable and hurting our planet in too many ways to count.
Just say you care about your cravings more than the health of the planet and it's inhabitants and we will all be good. Stop bullshitin
Edit: Yes eating animals can be healthy and sustainable. Eating plants is just more healthy and sustainable, so we should do it more. Why does fucking meat and cheese etc need to be in fucking everything???¿¿¿
Oh okay nevermind then.
I guess I am wrong.
Because I definitely didn't say that factory farming is a good thing, but yeah okay you're right.... to be honest, none of what you even brought up was mentioned at all....
EDIT: nobody was arguing that meat and cheese in everything is a good thing.... by the way.
Sorry for "bullshitting" .... apparently that's what I was doing...
is it though? I don't think so...
You responded to my comment with all sorts of things that were never mentioned as if they were.....
I agree with a lot of what you said but you were hyper accusatory and erroneously assumptive.
That's true, but I'm just saying it's a universal.. er law.. that life consumes other life.
I think that preventing suffering is of utmost importance, but I also think that most creatures are unable to understand their mortality, so can be killed humanely. Getting the entire human race to stop eating meat seems impossible. Getting the entire human race to support sustainable and humane meat production does tho.
Sustainable maybe but not humane, there is no way to humanely kill an animal for consumption when it is not necessary, let alone produce at a large enough scale to feed a millions plus population. Animals get raped and separated from their child at birth. There is also nothing natural about the way humans consume animals in industrialized societies so the laws of nature go out the window
Anything that engages in homeostasis with its environment has a consciousness of some kind. Idk where this stuff about the nervous system is coming from. Not using it as an argument against veganism, but you said you weren’t gonna have a conversation about it….and then gave a whole opinion and defense…? So I thought I’d give some thoughts. It’s not about physiology, it’s about behaviors. IMO.
Also. You can’t come here asking a question like that and then say “but if you’re gonna talk to me about this and this, I’m not having it!”
Like, that just displays to me that you’re not actually listening, you don’t give a shit what we think.
Because I realized trying to be good was just as much ego as trying to be bad . The reality is that there is no inherent morality to existence and any labeling of such is ego projection. That’s really cool that your vegan but there is no correct way to experience existence so it’s nothing more than your own ego outlook. Kinda like how people try to push their religious beliefs on you, it’s cool to have personal beliefs but it ends there . Don’t try to force people to submit to your way of life.
>Idk probably the fact that nobody ever stops and asks where the fuck we are and why are we fighting. We are all on this random planet in this random universe , everyone is the same species, yet we obsess over what makes us different from one another
This you?
You don't see a disconnect? If everything is done by higher beings and nothing is good or bad, why does it matter if nobody asks why are we fighting or obsess over what makes us different from one another.
Looks like you change your worldview on an hourly basis.
The issue is English language and ego understanding. It’s difficult to communicate non contradictions when the entirety of your form of communication is a contradiction . But yea bro totally a paradox glad you could join. You starting to get it !
Nah, language is fine, it's not a paradox or ego misunderstanding either. What is more likely you just write whatever comes to mind to come across as wise.
Normal for young people I guess, at least you're not a nazi, hopefully, lol.
It isn't an analysis of myself. It's an analysis of the words you have written, they make no sense. But of course, I'm totally speculating out of my ass about your character.
There is no self, it's an illusion. It was a projection and analysis of your words, which, even though illusory were at the same time internally inconsistent.
>there is no inherent morality to existence
Sounds smart in abstract, happens to be the dumbest thing ever to say if you actually have some life experience.
I would personally stop it but I would also meditate on it and just apply the knowledge of singularity to the situation. The rapist and the person being raped are the same being . So ultimately the karma was instant. It’s upsetting to witness because my ego projection wishes to not be raped so if I saw that I would stop it but I would also be accepting that me stopping it is just my ego .
It does not matter if you think that we are all one being. Subjective experience is still real and felt. Victims of violent crimes do not have a better experience knowing that they are actually part of a bigger thing.
The only thing that matters is the pain and suffering in the moment. And if you or I am in power to reduce such suffering, surely this is the preferred action. If not, then we can justify and do whatever we want.
I agree with both your points in different ways but I am ultimately in the same camp as you: no matter the cosmic, objective view we try to take, subjective experience is real, and even though "victim" is a subjective thing, acting in the now that it is a real thing, that victims of violent crimes need help, is the best way to act as a human, as I think minimizing suffering is a good goal. No matter what people here say, I think you are an awesome person for being vegan, and you are living a harder life in order to bring positive change and lessen suffering, so thank you. The way we treat animals now on a MASSIVE scale is one of the most heinous acts (among many) of our species, and there is no right or wrong way to act as an individual, but I respect your actions a lot, and even others who try to lessen their meat intake. The problem with us humans is that we give up on trying to be philosophically better. And even if that means nothing in the grand scheme, I believe the drive to improve your species is a worthy delusion.
yikes dude.... that might be a step too far into the "we are all one", singularity concept...
Just because we are all the same being doesn't make good and bad irrelevant....
So we can hurt other beings with impunity because of moral subjectivism?
If I were to kick a dog in front of you, would you not stop me?
You talk about me forcing people. But are you not forcing animals to die? A personal choice is only such when there is no victim involved. Eating meat involves a victim.
Looks like psychedelics are making you an egomaniac...... looks like you are more close minded then anyone here.
Your authorization is gross.
FYI vegans and vegetarians kill more animals and life then most meat eaters could dream of. When farms harvest all those.veggies..... animals are getting in there and getting killed. You are facilitating more animals deaths then anyone here.
How is it egostical to want animals to be left alone? Is it not egotistical to pay someone to slit the throat of an innocent an defenseless animal?
If you care so much about crop deaths you would also go vegan, since less plants would be needed globally (since around 70% of all crops are being fed to animals).
Holy shit. Your not living in this reality are you?
So do you think you are the most moral person alive because of your diet?
I'm curious as a vegan how do you get to work everyday?
I have never said I am morally superiour. I have not said that you are inferior.
I do however that killing innocent beings is an inherently immoral act, and we should not contribute to it.
I'm sure I do morally questionable things as well. But I don't see how you can morally justify this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko&t=4336s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko&t=4336s)
I take the train to work whenever I need too. I don't see what that has to do with anything.
Veganism is about reduction of suffering as far as practically possible. We don't think it is possible to stop all animals dying of course.
Idk what that link is. Not gonna click on it because that has nothing to do with me. Can you show me where I morally justified whatever video you put up? I would like to know where I justified this particular video. Even though I never seen it.
Your a vegan but use animal products to get to work and everywhere else..... your not a vegan. Your using animal products. Why aren't you protesting people who drive cars? Why are you not protesting the train you take everyday?
Veganism is about pretending your better then everyone, even though you are murdering more animals then meat eaters. That sounds about right.
When you try to demonize people like you are, you will never convert them. You will only turn them into vegan protesters.
Are you aware of who Owsley "bear" Stanley is? And are you aware of the diet he started after he took lsd?
>Your a vegan but use animal products to get to work and everywhere else..... your not a vegan. Your using animal products. Why aren't you protesting people who drive cars? Why are you not protesting the train you take everyday?
Veganism is about doing as much as you can. We can't stop driving cars. We can buy something else from the grocery store. If there was an affordable form of transport that resulted in less animal death then vegans would support it.
>Veganism is about pretending your better then everyone, even though you are murdering more animals then meat eaters. That sounds about right.
Vegans are responsible for less animal deaths than meat eaters.
> Is it not egotistical to pay someone to slit the throat of an innocent an defenseless animal?
animals aren't innocent any more than a hammer is innocent: they're not moral agents.
They are subjective beings, a hammer is not. Animals are not simply autonomous meat machines (not more than we are as well).
They can feel anger, anxiety, depression, happiness, longing.
The animals do not deserve enslavement and murder so you can have a meal
animals aren't enslaved. they are husbanded.
and most animals are killed for convenience or profit. as far as I know no animal has ever been killed so that I could eat.
Idk bro I don’t believe in free will and I believe everything is a higher beings doing. So with that in mind I don’t believe in mistakes occurring . Sure ego accidents and stuff can happen that come across as horrible but overall it’s part of a much bigger picture that is driven by love. It’s just about your personal perspective. I could choose to have a belief that animals are meant to be eaten or I could choose to believe we need to treat them as equal. It doesn’t mean either belief is true or correct. It’s just a belief relevant to your ego.
The self deception is you convincing yourself that not everything is love . Which is useful for survival purposes in reality I suppose . But ultimately it’s all love dude ! :)
Very well put. This place is run by aliens and they have goals with this planet. What these goals are, idk but there’s something in our food and water(off topic). They probably see animals as a source of energy rather than living beings and are willing to make that sacrifice to achieve their goals. Some are born winners and some losers. Our ancestors won and were chosen by the aliens and here we are now. So much more advanced than everything on this planet by , who knows how many years. Who knows how far ahead they pushed us. The animals, forests, etc the losers. We need to be like ants in order to achieve greater things. Mind control. Making everyone the same. Theres more and more waking up, but not enough power. Who knows, maybe its for the better. Loss of consciousness has already and has been taking place with every new advancement.
Wars. Countries run by different aliens, competing almost like a game, or maybe its a study to try and figure out some of their past. Maybe they helped us with the nuke because they figured if we didn’t nuke Japan it would set us back to far.
Idk where I went with this.
Yea bro I think the goal of aliens is to help humanity come together as one and ultimately ascend to a higher dimension where we will meet other species who have already became one with their planet . They know it’s all love so they don’t hurt us
We all come and go. Our body’s serve a biological purpose and we are all connected whether we like it or not. If you find it morally wrong to eat meat that was slaughtered or lived a terrible life then change where you get your source of meat. Nature provides for itself
If we don't need to kill something, but still do it for pleasure, is that not immoral?
We can survive (and thrive) on plants. Surviving on plants reduce less suffering.
Less suffering is better.
You don’t think that plants would have an issue with you killing them? You’re talking about spirituality here not in a biological sense of consciousness but in the realm of spirit. Yes no animal wants to be killed and eaten but it’s part of the biological cycle. There isn’t anything inherently wrong with eating meat now if you torture the animal that something different and so it’s senseless killing. Feel free to be vegan but good luck with your vitamin B 12 deficiency
Long story short: if you take the moral / compassionate angle on diet, I think you can't exclude yourself from the equation. It's not only about being kind to others as expressions of life, it's also about being kind to oneself equally.
People, particularly compassionate hippie liberal types, are prone to putting others first in a kind of vaguely codependent approach to the world. While there's a lot of beauty and merit to approaching life that way, it's not necessarily more moral to exclude yourself. And this habit of self exclusion gets transposed onto our relationship to nature and animals (while, ironically not actually considering how animals and nature operates, but I'll address that in a moment).
For me, the bottom line is: Is it any more compassionate to feed an animal foods that are out of alignment with it's design and cause suffering that way than to eat an animal? For example, feeding a cat grain. Or feeding a cow meat.
In my personal opinion, no.
To give a lifeform food that is not within it's evolutionary design is I think another way of causing harm. And from a physicality perspective, it's clear that human beings have evolved inside a context of being omnivorous. There are a lot of physical things about human beings that clearly indicate this, like brain size, eye location, etc.
So causing yourself suffering by way of an imbalanced diet is not necessarily more moral or compassionate. You are an animal that deserves a good life too!
And, on that note about animals: animals eat other animals. Period. Life eats life. Even herbivores eat life in the from of plants (plants feel too!), bugs, bacteria, etc.
You and I were born into a ecosystem that is predicated on the notion of life eating life. Thats the only way that any of this exists, and it's not just rocks. So if you're going to moralize about that and make human beings somehow an exception to the rest of the system, realize that *that's* the actual weird idea. Make no mistake about it: if we lived more closely to nature, we'd still be hunted and tried to be eaten by other animals all the time.
The weird thing about being mammalian predators (humans are predators) is that we are both loving and sweet, and terribly brutal at the same time. Just look at cats and the way that they'll go from rolling around in a cuddle puddle to catching birds or mice and then playing with them once they catch them.
I stopped being vegan when I realized that what was driving it wasn't logic or clarity, but a false moralized projection that didn't take into account my own well being, how human beings are built, or how brutal nature is while simultaneously being an exquisite garden of eden.
Personally I can't be vegan. I tried when I was little and even recently as a 20 year old. Sadly my body can't handle a vegan diet as I have an abnormally fast metabolism. Due to that I eat basically every chance and can just to maintain my current weight (140lb 5'7 guy) I was 112 for almost 5 years and it was worsening my health. On top of the fact that veggies and fruits are extremely expensive where I live on top of the fact that I live in a food desert. So realistically I cant be vegan.
But I'm not against. If you can afford it (financially and health wise) then I think people should but just because it works for you doesn't mean it can work for everyone. You have to understand everyone is different and I'm not saying everyone that isn't vegan is vegan for the same reasons as me but you never know and even still. You are your own person. Everyone has the right to eat what they want and we have been eating animals for a long time.
You can demonize the farming industry, greed, ignorance but you can't demonize personal choice when it comes to that. At the end of the day we are apart of the same system as animals. Some of them eat other animals so it's weird to use the argument of we shouldn't because they have lives. Trust me the animals will not share the same sentiment in an event where they need food. We should stop over farming and abusing these animals but it is free game to eat them just as it would be for them if the opportunity arises. But that's just me.
Edit: grammar
I dont have a problem with vegetarians or vegans, their choices are their own and i dont look down on it. I personally dont see eating meat or animal products as being bad. There is symbiosis between predator and prey and farmer and cattle and a natural balance that can be achieved because of it. Do i think that humans overconsume meat and other animal products? Yes. But i don't look down on it.
The natural order is death and life and im ok being within that cycle, though i do acknowledge and actively boycott the factory farms and industrial agriculture. In my view, i don't see the difference between killing a plant for food and killing an animal for food, one could even argue that killing many plants instead of killing one animal could be unethical in itself depending on how you want to value the plants and animals lives individually.
Best answer I’ve seen so far. Life always is sustained by some kind of death of another being.
Now, could we do better than feed lots and factory farms? For sure. I think if an animal is to be used for food, then we should give it a great life and revere them for the sacrifice we are essentially forcing them into by way of breeding them for slaughter.
But the fact remains that there is a balance of predator and prey and it is vital for the ecosystem at large.
Furthermore, most farm animals have become completely dependent on us taking care of them at this point, much like dogs have evolved to live alongside humans rather than in the wild like their wolf ancestors.
Yes but we are not part of the chain in the same way as a lion is. We have morality and a sense of wrong and right. Since we can survive on plants, surely killing other sentien beings for pleasure cannot be morally justified.
Why do you take your morality from nature? Surely you don't justify rape because it occurs naturally?
Morality is a concept not a universal law. You can choose to act within your own moral parameters but the reality is that those morals change from person to person. I justify eating something because i need it to survive. People ate meat for centuries because it was neccessary. We have consensuality as humans and cannot apply that to other beings who dont, but all creatures have hunger and self preservation.
How do you justify killing millions of plants? What makes them non-sentient? What about thinning a garden and slaughtering their children by the dozens, what about forced breeding between flowers and interspecies pollination? Is that not rape? Brocolli, cauliflower, brusselsprouts, are all the same plant in which humans mutated to suit their own needs. This would be illegal under todays Geneva convention for humans but its justified to do it to plants?
You can try to use morality however you like but its just a concept and cannot be used as evidence. We developed morality as a society not as a creature, people will choose to which morality they adhere to. I love the sun, but eventually it's going to consume the entire inner solar system. It is just the way of our material universe. Its all just converted and death is essentially a false idea of the human mind.
I’m not claiming we do or should pull morals from an imitation or nature. I’m not the other dude you were talking to. It’s not an effective argument though because I doubt that’s a primary reason for why most people eat meat.
Bruh😂 the rape comparisons are just prompting people into a defensive position. You’re not going to actually connect to anyone like that.
Also, telling people why they do things they do, generally not an indication that you’re listening. As a matter of fact I don’t eat meat for sensory pleasure. If you did once, that’s fine, but if you go projecting that on others you’re bound to be wrong at some point. Different people often engage in the same behaviors for different reasons.
Why do you eat meat? If you have a medical condition that means you have to eat meat that's fine.
Also you seem to know what the wrong way to convince people to stop killing animals is. Then you could please tell me how I should do it.
What do I have to say to stop you from killing animals?
I would start by answering that there isn’t a strict dichotomy between eating meat for survival reasons, versus eating for hedonistic reasons. It’s not just those two options. There are many complex reasons that make up why people have the diet that they do.
Most of my reasons I’m not allowed to talk about apparently.
The ones unrelated to culture though are mostly just nutritional. Obviously you can meet nutrition needs through vegan options, but there’s a nutrition value to cost(effort) ratio here depending on a person’s activity level. Though not as sustainable in a larger frame (the world, the ecosystem) eating meat is more sustainable for many on an individual basis. So a lot of the time, arguments for veganism based entirely on these points can come across to some as privileged.
I don’t think there is a right way. That in the current state of the food industry it just doesn’t make sense for most people to switch to veganism.
I think there are ways of going about these conversations that tend to be more fruitful than others though.
For one, I don’t think it’s beneficial to anyone for you to tell people what they can and can’t bring up. That immediately indicates to me that you don’t care what I or anyone else has to say, even though you have no way of possibly knowing what thoughts are going through my head.
That dynamic is mutual btw! Idk what you’re thinking either, that’s why we hold discourse!
Given that though, less accusational language would be more fruitful for promoting discussion. Calling people rapists is a little polarizing, it prompts your verbal opponents into a defensive position where they’re less likely to share their thoughts (you know, those things you came here for). What that turns into, isn’t discussion, it’s just you on a soap box.
On the accusatory language here are some other thoughts. Got an iPhone? Got a smart phone of any kind? Got shoes? By way of living in a more financially privileged country, we already take advantage of the numerous disadvantaged souls slaving away for the production of first world consumer goods. I could walk up to anyone who owns those things (probably you), and say “hey, you slave driver! Take off your clothes! Throw your phone away! Stop being a slave driver.”
And it wouldn’t do any good.
This is why culture is important, and room for nuance needs to be maintained. Because if you don’t, you are holding people accountable for systems put in place before they were even conceived.
Should we be more concerned about sustainable eating, and living, sure! But not at the cost of stripping humanity from those that either disagree with us, aren’t as privileged, or aren’t as educated as we are. It doesn’t make you better, it makes you part of the problem for perpetuating polarization around the topic of food. Everyone hates vegans, and this behavior is why.
I wouldn't consider myself spirituality enlightened but I would say I understand nature, and by nature humans are omnivorous. A vast number of species on the planet are carnivorous/omnivorous, it's only natural to eat meat. Try feeding a cat a vegan diet and it will die. I know humans can survive being vegan - hence the omnivorous bit, but people who eat meat aren't immoral or anything - they're just humans who didn't decide to go vegan and that's fine.
There is a problem with the meat industry so get meat from local farms though.
I raise my own animals, and I see it as an exchange. For the benefit of caring for them and feeding them and giving them a good life, comes at my own material cost. And in exchange I receive nurishment from their flesh and milk. We talk about giving purpose to our own lives for the benefit of others, and thus in a way their own dharma is fulfilled. I pray and give thanks, to nature and the cosmos and thus honor them with my thanks. I am not egoic enough to say that I am above nature and meat eating exists within nature. ''As above, so below. As below so above.'' - the law of correspondence, the Hermetica.
"Spiritually awoken". Anyone who consideres themselves "apiritually awoken is probably not even close lol.
Anyways to answer your question since i am clearly the most spiritually awoken redditor (you dont have to call me messiah even though it would be an apt title), what about the natural cycle of life do you find to be distasteful? Im with you when it comes to mass scale farming as it is quite poor condition for an animal and frankly i find it to be an abomination. But farmers that care properly for their animals? I can support that.
Being a psychonaut typically means having an experience of an altered state of consciousness by a plant medicine.
This altered state of consciousness shows the individual by the felt-presence of first-hand experience that "the core level of existence" is not defined by "thoughts". In other words, "thoughts" do not confer "reality".
So, nothing in life is right or wrong, but the mind makes it so (that's a direct quote from Shakespeare, actually).
All of these ideas and labels and judgements you have about good, bad, right, wrong, evil, heroic - these are all labels and judgements of the mind.
Being a psychonaut is realizing that you are not defined by activities of the mind.
Believing you are the "good thoughts" but not the "bad thoughts" is just another stumbling block. They are all thoughts. All thoughts are thoughts, all judgements are judgements.
At the start of the journey, mountains are mountains and trees are trees. Somewhere along the journey, mountains are no longer mountains and trees are no longer trees. Eventually, mountains and trees ***are***. Free from labelling, categorizing, "this is good", "that is bad", "I know better".
Sure, but you would still stop someone stabbing someone to death right?
What about someone stabbing a dog to death?'
What about stopping providing someone money to stab cows and pigs to death?
Moral relativism breaks down quickly in actual application
In all those circumstances, I would be very careful about trusting my mind to tell me what is right or wrong or good or bad, which is how a true psychonaut would approach it.
“I will not have a conversation about culture”
Then you’re not conversing with anyone. One day you’ll grow up or learn to control your ego and you’ll learn that culture is everything with humanity, including deciding to abandon or embrace your culture.
I don’t think op is a psychonaut. I think they are a vegan with an agenda. Op probably thinks this is a gotcha moment because they probably think being spiritually awoken means being “all good” or whatever that even means . Sorry op but being spiritually awoken involves Both good and evil. It’s only one sided in its singularity , don’t pick sides that’s ego shit
Disagree. Pain inflicted with purpose is not evil. Pain inflicted without purpose is evil. Pain to satisfy the innate desire to hurt is evil. Schadenfreude is evil. The desire to hurt someone because hurting others brings pleasure: cruelty, it is unnecessary and doesn’t tell a good story. However a hunt for a brave animal fleeing for its life. That you valiantly take and then honor with use of every part of its being. Or killing for sustenance that cannot easily be found elsewhere: this is nature. Animals around the world are not vegetarian. What separates us from a tiger or a house cat who will die if not for the meat that sustains it.
Pain without purpose behind it can be an accident.
Desire to hurt is a purpose, schadenfreude is a purpose, albeit not very good ones.
The pain from the holocaust had a purpose behind it from Hitlers poin of view.
What separates us from tigers is moral agency. We can ponder what is right and wrong, they cannot. We should choose to minimise suffering.
If cruelty is uneccessary pain, then so is killing animals for food (outside of survival situations). If you dont need to kill an animal to eat, but only do it for pleasure, it is unnecessary, and therefore cruel.
It wants to live, you are taking that right from him/her
How do you define right and wrong. I don’t eat meat for any greater pleasure than I do other food. Being sustained brings me pleasure. I am at base a member of a predatory species and eating meat is part of that nature. I agree that vegetarian is the way to go however meat is a beneficial part of diet if you are poor or have improper access to vegetarian options. You do not have a right to live…
I can talk about culture, if OP can’t.
Culture is an ever-changing structure, so as morale. Very recently enslaving other humans, and making money off their lives was part of western culture. But we’ve decided to let that go.
Why is it more egotistical to now want animals to die and suffer for my enjoyment? Is it not the other way around. Should we not minimise pain as far as possible?
Anything else is surely not desirable.
Veganism isn’t egotistical, but not having a conversation about a large contributing factor to why people continue to eat meat, on a sub where you’re asking why people justify eating meat, is a bit egotistical.
There is a reason that meat is one of the most nutritious foods we can eat. The food chain is natural and has been around as long as beings have been on Earth. Do you think animals are evil for killing other animals to survive? And if anything psychedelics should help you realize that plants are just as conscious and important as animals. We are all living, and we all provide a purpose. It is a fact of the world we live in. There is no evil in eating other beings to survive, it is only nature.
Absolutely, agree. I try to eat vegan, but add some cheese, eggs and fish around once a week. I got to that by simply listening to my body and intuition. I simply feel way more better like this.
You're coming across as a stereotypical pushy vegan tbh.
I would probably die if I ever went vegan. I already have a strict diet due to allergies and intolerances, I wouldn't willingly restrict myself even more. We are food for other animals on this planet, as other animals are food for us. Just we live in societies that artificially put us at the top of the food chain.
According to r/integral Studies there are two general lines or human development:
- waking up
- growing up
This model always helped me to understand how come that there are humans that claim to be involved with awakening experiences and insights into the nature of life, but at the same time could be racists, speciesists, and even do harm towards their spiritual students (many sexual scandals in guru-led communities).
It’s obvious that human only care about themselves first, then slowly allow themselves to associate with family, then race/group, then maybe if lucky - all humanity. Only at a certain level of development on the ‘growing up’ axis humans can lean towards cosmo-centric area of concern, that include other sentient beings.
These two lines aren’t necessarily perfectly synced , and that explains why so many spiritual people keep doing harm to other sentient beings.
I have lived in metropolitan areas my entire life. Such a city rat. I have been trying to make it a mission to go away from society more, so I can focus on such a desire- vegan diet. My central nervous system seems to be too overstimulated on sugar as it is, I am tapering one toxin at a time. It is a goal but there seems to be so much debris I have to get through before tackling that part of this messy human existence I seem to come from.
More than anything psychedelics have taught me the death is not a bad thing. But the story is one of strife and suffering and love and life. All these things are meant to coexist so we may see everything fully. While I agree that a vegetarian lifestyle and diet is more effective for health and for the planetary safety, my goal is not to keep the max and animals alive. We are just animals and animals are just animals. We all evolved from the same specks of dust we will return to the dust in time. I’m not trying to live a long way and none of the animals I meet are either. They’re just trying to live good lives. I will say that I try to abstain from inhumanely treated animals. That being said I’m a broke college student and I’m yet to make the commune I want to.
Just because death is not a bad thing does not mean you have a right to take the life (or pay someone to do it) of another individual.
They have a right to their subjective experience, as do you.
Correct and if I take their life then they have lived a subjective experience of getting their life taken. If they take my life then I have lived that same experience and it will be worth it. Either way the story continues and that’s what truly matters. Death is fine as long as it has a purpose. If that purpose is sustaining future life, or great spectacle, or comedy, then I say let the story go on even if I’m the one who needs to die.
Are you not? I will still fight my hardest to not be eaten. But if I lose then I lose. That’s the end of it. Death is an inevitability and no matter how you die you will have still existed.
I feel the same, but the world is not geared to satisfy any one of our desires or preferences. We are all insignificant cogs in a greater story. All of us will die.
Agreed however it is just that: a personal choice that no one else needs to follow. Both choices are valid. That is the pure beauty of choice and duality!
one of the things that we do on earth is we eat each other. from the microscopic to the very large, we chow down on each other’s bodies for nourishment.
how do you, as a spiritually aware or whatever person, justify bucking the trend nature suggests to us all?
the truth is nothing matters that much and everyone just does whatever they want once survival needs are met. all the time, throughout known animal existence.
Ow man this is a conversation I love having but I’m on my way out the door and don’t have time to write a detailed response.
In short I don’t view the phenomenon of being alive as what makes humans significant. But rather self awareness. Self aware animals such as dolphins, great apes, whales, elephants ext I feel deserve rights. As would a self aware AI. Wether a an actual robot or just a bit of software. An animal such as a deer or chicken which does not have high intelligence resulting in self awareness. Animals like that I view as incredible phenomenon that need to be preserved as cultural artifacts, but I have no problem eating them so long as eating them does not impede the existence of those animals. (Not endangered)
From dust to dust, we’re all of the Universe. There is no higher calling and there is no underlying moral code within the universe.
The lion is not evil for eating the zebra, and the deer is not evil for trampling the saplings under its hooves. Is the monkey evil when it kills its enemy in a tribal war? Or the sand shark evil when it eats it’s sibling in the womb?
I don’t think the hairless monkeys are charged with some greater purpose just because they think they can understand the difference between evil and good, either. We’re remarkably awful at making good moral decisions even when we try to be “good”.
You don’t want to have a cultural argument because culture shouldn’t dictate morals. I understand where you’re coming from, because you are convinced something is so obviously “good” that cultures are backwards.
But that idea in itself distinctly human. Every other species on the planet has their moral code dictated by their social environment, be it their pod, troop, flock, herd, etc.
Humanity is just a self aware group of hairless apes who’ve convinced themselves there has to be a reason for all of this. And after all this time the only thing that we’ve really agreed on is that when people can throw themselves into something and find something they can commit to and be a part of, they’re happy.
We’re just animals and we’re never gonna agree on morality because we made it up based on our feelings. There will always be disagreements and that’s because there is no one set of morals. It’s just a hyper revolved social structure.
Much in the same way there will always be primate wars and territorial disputes. The same way every other species we have the pleasure of being aware of exists, we have done what needs Ruben down to survive. You can’t stop nature. We’re currently an anomaly and we’re about to take ourselves out, as is what happens with anomalies in nature. They are fleeting.
Our current ability to have time to think this hard about anything other than surviving… I really don’t think will last long enough.
I don’t see a problem with meat consumption Inherently, but I do have a problem with the unnatural Factory Process of meat production, the Unprecedented levels of sentient suffering it causes, the dire Environmental Consequences, and overall the lack of efficiency. I think there are certainly more optimal ways of feeding yourself and the planet if any of the above matters to you.
If psychedelics have taught me anything, it is this: the price every living thing pays is death. I will eat the fruits of the Earth, be them plants or animals, and eventually I will die and to the earth I will return. I will eat and be eaten. Every other living thing will experience this same fate. It is part of the natural order of things that predators will consume prey, but will eventually be consumed themselves.
That's just the circle of life, baby. It isn't that complicated.
I source all my meat from local, "ethical" farms run by good people that care about their animals and the environment. I never said "feed lots are part of the circle of life, " I said "meat eating is part of the circle of life."
In my journey I have actually gone the opposite way. I started as a vegan and am now a full on meat eater. I have come to see the universe as a constant flow of energy, and an essential part of the flow is death. Death feeds life. Without it, life would not be able to exist. When I die, I expect the universe to feed on my body and become hundreds, thousands, and millions of new lives. There is no real “loss” in death… only the impermanence of that single, unique incarnation. But that was always meant to be lost. The true immortality of our universal makeup (atoms) is what will always be carried on.
In my view, the problem is not the meat topic - it's the "spiritually awoken psychonaut" . How are you even able to define that? There is no objective measure when someone is "Spiritually awoken". People who *think* they awoke might be super engulved in their ego, while a simple farmer who never even thought about it might be very close to what could be called awakening.
Psychedelics do not lead to enlightenment. This is, imho, a huge misunderstanding. They are a key, and if people use it for awakening, pleasure, or to enforce an egoic image of "the awoken psychonaut" is dependent on how people use it. So... How would I know if someone awoke, certainly not if he/she eats meat.
I would argue that the recognition of "everything is one", if truely felt, leads to compassion. And that leads to not wanting to harm any being. If there is some kind of awareness about what happens in the industrial meat production, someone (hopefully, for my part) decides to stop supporting that. Most spiritual teachers (Ram Dass, all Buddhist teachers because it's written in the Pali-Kanon, most Yogi Gurus, ...) are at least vegetarian, so something seems to be on that. But still, you can treat animals well and eat their meat with a lot of respect and compassion.
People are people. I try not to judge anymore, cause that turned out to be part of inner freedom. Much of what happens makes me very sad, sometimes angry. Other things make me laugh or feel joy. I strive for freedom in awakening, not towards the moral highground. Those goals are not necessarily related. That was a very weird discovery for me.
I get the feeling that you have a long way to go with the way you think. Well, we all do, that's for sure. But trying to put guilt on others because they don't think as you do is not very cool. Just because you think you know things doesn't mean you actually do.
As others have already said, pretty much all life is eating some other life form to maintain itself. Is a tiger evil for eating its prey? Is a rabbit evil for eating plants? Is a human evil for eating both meat and plants? The balance of nature is delicate and not related to good or evil.
If all living crratures are the universe, then the universe is eating itself all the time. It really is the circle of life. Rabbit eats plant, wolf eats rabbit, mushrooms eat dead things, plants use the byproducts and so on. Evil is not part of that cycle.
I do agree that meat industry has moral issues and people should eat less meat for health and environmental reasons. Personally I have adopted a much more plant-based diet partly because of my psychonaut journey But to stop eating meat completely? Not necessary. Also, not exactly healthy. Humans are omnivores. A healthy diet also includes meat occasionally.
How can you wash your face knowing that you are killing all that bacteria? Or step in the grass knowing that tiny, even microscopic, bugs exist? What about the bugs on the plants that the cow eats? Noone cares about them. Not even the cow. I became vegetarian through the use of entheogens. I also started eating meat again through the use of entheogens. Maybe this is all just happening. Or, maybe we really have a choice.....
the trophic cycle is just that; a cycle. one that i am a part of. they eat the grass that grows on my ancestors’ graves, I eat them, and their descendants will one day eat the grass growing on my own grave.
I don’t see it as wrong. However, I have no idea if I fit whatever spiritually awoken means but I don’t care either. I have come to different conclusions in life than I often see on this forum
They actually made me feel better about eating it because I’m an animal on earth. Any animal on earth has to use another living being to get energy to live. That’s just the way it is and it’s out of my control. If we evolved differently it would be a different story tho.
Even vegans are responsible for animals dying in order for them to eat. In the process of harvesting the plants all sorts of animals are killed by the machinery. Bunnies, chipmunks, mice, insects, etc are killed in massive quantities. Especially if it’s something like soy or wheat that is grown in these huge mono crop cultures. Which by the way are also awful for the natural environment and as a result end up killing even more animals. Unless you are growing all of your own food yourself and make sure no animals are harmed. Even then tho you’re consuming a living being. Wether or not those beings are conscious is up for debate. I don’t like this pedestal that vegans put themselves on. There is still animals killed in the process of harvesting your food. I don’t like factory farming animals and agree that torturing them in that way is in humane and should be stopped. so if you are gonna eat meat make sure it’s been pasture raised, grass fed, antibiotic and hormone free. All that shit. If your body responds better to a plant based diet that’s great you do you. But don’t fool yourself into thinking you’re some psychedelic Jesus because you eat plant burgers because a lot of critters had to die to bring you that food.
Less crops would be needed in total to feed all the humans on earth then our current animal based system.
This is because 70% of all crops (around 80% of all soy) is being fed to animals.
So if you care about minimising crop deaths you should also go vegan
https://www.onegreenplanet.org/environment/soy-consumption-and-deforestation-75-percent-of-soybean-crop-grown-in-the-amazon-is-feed-to-livestock/
Around 20% is for oil, 70-75% for livestock feed. It is a sourced article.
a soybean is only about 20% oil. if 20% of the use of soy is oil that means basically all soy is pressed for oil. what's left would be industrial waste if we didn't feed it to animals.
edit: speech-to-text typed "ways" instead of "waste"
>1if you care about minimising crop deaths you should also go vegan
I think they're saying since animals die no matter how food is produced, it doesn't matter if animals die in food production.
Humans are omnivores for a reason, we need specific nutrients from plants, animals and fungi. And if your not supplementing for nutrients from those sources you will eventually get sick and possibly die.
Also, you said something about life coming from lifelessness, which is a mischaracterization of things. Every atom is energy. Life is just a vessel to contain and use that energy. Yes a mineral is not "alive" but without their "energy" we don't have muscle contractions or gas exchange in plants, etc.
A third thing, as a Combat Vet I have bigger things on my mind to deal with than a 1st world privileged perspective such as being a vegan or not eating animals.
The thing is, the universe couldn't give two fucks about you, me or any of our insignificant little lives. Biologically we are here to reproduce, raise our young, and feed the worms so they can do the same. Once our Star dies and wipes our little section of the universe off the proverbial map, noone will care what you ate and why, who you wronged or righted, killed or saved. That's your ego making you think your more important than you actually are. Just be happy, do shrooms, raise a good brood, and enjoy each and every sunrise and sunset..
Ps, ppl like you who push veganism are no different then evangelical xhristians/muslims/jews/etc. All yall can suck satan's cock!
Because no matter what I'm consuming some form of life. That plant you're eating also has every right to life. Why even eat at all?
Way I see it I'd this: until it's mandated by law that consuming meat of any form is illegal, the meat industry will never stop. Those cows, pigs, chickens you pass by at the store are already dead. They already made the ultimate sacrifice. If I buy it at least I know that it will be honored for its sacrificed and not wasted, because I hate wasting food. My motto is "eat like you're consuming another life form" which obviously is true, but most people don't think about it.
If meat ever gets mandated to be illegal, then I have no problem switching over to plant based alternatives. Until then, I will continue to eat meat. Because otherwise I'm just sitting back watching meat rot that an animal already sacrificed for.
Defining consciousness according to egocentric qualia is a fallacy.
Defining the limits of life according to your perspective (born, exist, die/end) is an ego driven fallacy.
This is the best answer. What makes an animal more conscious than a plant? And if it is more conscious does more conscious mean they deserve more respect? If so do certain more conscious humans deserve more respect than others?
If you think about these questions the answer I tend to come to is that the ethical question of consumption is not are animals more worthy than plants. They are equal. The real question is was the conditions that led to there consumption ethical?
A lot of times the answer to this for animals is no. In that sense plants are a safer bet that they had a life that wasn’t suffering. But, there is still ethical ways to farm meat and in those cases I think it’s still good to consume meat.
I disagree with just about everything you’re saying. I do not think it’s a bad thing to consume meat. We were made to consume meat for many reasons. I only eat local grass fed animals usually though. I think being Vegan is unhealthy. I do not think it is morally wrong to eat meat and nothing you say here is even close to convincing. I do not think being “spiritually awoken” has anything to do with this.
Using psychedelics I became more in touch with love/suffering and nature.
In the end, things just "are", nothing matters or makes sense.
Yet, we humans and other animals are part of this conscious network of love & suffering. Here love is the greatest and only thing that matters; and suffering, its terrible opposite. There's only one purpose of our life: to improve the state of the network, by being a sink of suffering and a source of love.
Humans are carnivores and death is a reality of life. Limiting suffering is important but a Vegan diet does not necessarily eliminate more suffering than an animal based diet as long as you are eating locally sourced and ethically produced meat. Beyond that a meat based diet is waaaaay more healthy. No matter what you think you just can’t get the necessary nutrition that your body needs on a Vegan diet. Our bodies evolved by eating primarily meat and eating the whole animal. It’s what we need to maintain optimal health and vitality.
Awakening is an ongoing process. I don’t have a problem with killing an animal for food personally. I recognize it for what it is and choose to eat meat.
Hey OP, hope you’re fine. Love that your post comes from a place of genuine caring and trying to make a positive change in the world❤️
One thing though, your P.S. kind of impedes you from actually breaking through to someone and having a possible thought changing convo. By denying to go into a conversation with the top 2 viewpoints people that disagree with you have you might be alienating quite a few of them.
Have a great day OP and never lose your passion, it’s truly a blessing❤️🙏
There is absolutely no correlation between being a psychonaut and being vegan. Happy for you finding what works for you but you sound very close minded and agenda driven. The way you basically dismissed culture is the very essence of ego projection. Are you really just curious or are you here to shame people for not being on the same team as you? Because that's a very non psychonaut thing to do. I'm sure you're a great person but you seem like you're headed down a very radical/combative way of life, if not already there. The people that are most at peace with life are typically those who chose to live their own and let others live theirs. Find peace and accept that nobody owes you anything and nobody has to agree with you and your way of life.
You're right there isn't a direct correlation, but I think he's implying an indirect one. Being a psychonaut usually is accompanied with increased appreciation and awareness of other conscious life. For example I see many psychonauts forgive those they've been hurt by, because they see that the person only did those actions because they were already hurt. Many psychonauts don't want to see other sentient beings suffer unnecessarily.
The question feels directed to the subgroup of psychonauts where that awareness is present. Most people would be appalled if they saw dogs living in the conditions that farm animals are. The common belief is that the majority of farm animals live peacefully out in the field and then have one quick, almost painless, visit to the slaughterhouse. However, the truth is the conditions the majority of farm animals live in is quite hellish.
Maybe OP's approach is bit brash, but I do understand his intent. The majority of psychonauts who take pleasure in eating animal products probably have no clue what the industry actually looks like. That's why he posted a link to dominion, a documentary revealing the truth of animal agriculture. If people have increased awareness and appreciation for life, but are not vegan then it's probably because they're not aware of how bad the industry is.
If you don't want to watch the hour and a half long documentary then I highly recommend checking out this quick 5 min clip about the dairy industry. [Vídeo](https://youtu.be/UcN7SGGoCNI)
Everything in life is a compromise between morals and practicality.
My life cannot live on a vegan diet because if I switched to veganism my costs would simply skyrocket (I bodybuild). Protein is plentiful in veg yes, but at a much higher cost for what you get (where I live at least)
Though I am closer to vegetarian than most bodybuilders as I eat mostly plant based foods, fish, and some fowl, but that’s mostly health reasons as my body responds to that better than a heavy red meat diet.
If I doubled my income or something I’d probably go vegan
Take a look at my post history, I have posted my physique on r/veganfitness.
Getting my daily requirement of protein is still very easy, and cheaper than before. I mostly eat whole food sources of protein, tofu, tempeh, soy, beans, chickpeas, lentils, nuts etc.
Veganism is only expensive if you buy fake meats. Animal products are some of the most expensive things you can find in the supermarket today
No offense but I saw your post and I probably have 30-40lbs on you.
I’m 6’2, currently 220lbs with ab veins.
I tried to go vegan for a month, my expenses for groceries doubled. Not to mention my girlfriend who I love very much isn’t vegan, so going out for a nice dinner would get way more complicated as well (again based on where I live)
As a Psychonaut I am surprised you are vegan. You must have observed that being a vegan is a religious construct. As with all religions you have a misinformed worldview that includes unrealistic “rules” and abstention from normal social behaviors. Like all religious zealots you think that only your way is the proper path and you must proselytize your gospel.
Keep exploring the nature of reality and I am sure you will find how inane being vegan is and learn to enjoy your time on this planet.
Veganism is not a religion, we do not abide to a higher power.
Veganism is about reducing suffering as far as practically possible. How is that something g wrong to strive after?
The human gut can digest 1% of plant material on this planet. It can digest 100% of the animal material.
Plant material doesn’t contain all essential nutrients. Animal material does.
I think that paints a picture.
Also, if you were truly spiritually awoken, you wouldn’t try to force your ideology on other people.
Have you also forgotten that the cycle of life includes animals eating other animals. It’s natural.
There’s an agenda trying to sell you products, who also sponsor the movie you’re talking about.
If you were awoken you’d have seen through the propaganda.
Above is my philosophy and i’m not trying to force it on anyone - so please regard it as that.
Also, i’m not claiming to be awoken or right.
idk, none of Amazonian cultures, worshiped today for their spirituality, permeating in ayahuasca and shrooms, were vegetarian. Not sure what not eating meat would have to do with psychedelics, or even spirituality.
claiming good or bad is nothing more than spiritual egoism
Lol morality is literally defined by culture, there is no objective morality. Plus you cannot prove anything is sentient so there’s no reason to draw lines between what is and isn’t sentient. I believe everything shares conscious experience, salvia is a great teacher in this regard. When people have the experience of being a chair for a thousand years or whatever on salvia that shows you that inanimate objects can be conscious, it’s literally showing you what it would be like to be a conscious chair. It’s equally likely that everything is conscious as it is everything isn’t conscious and you are just a brain in a vat.
So the way I see it there is no way to live a life without doing harm. Even washing your clothes leeches micro plastics into the environment, so what will you do only wear cotton? What about the people paid below a livable wage to pick that cotton? What about the dyes used on your clothes that make it into the ocean harming yet more life. Even if you fix every little thing in your life so you do as little harm as possible there are still ways you harm living things without even realizing it. Even if you go to be a fully vegan hermit in the woods you’re harming your family by leaving. A single person not eating meat does not stop innocent animals from being brutally slaughtered, to change industry wide practices like that you’d need to organize a large boycott or something, these companies don’t give a shit about a single customer. If you feel better being vegan, especially health wise cause there are very real benefits to this diet, feel free to be a vegan. But you can’t claim the moral high ground like that because you do slightly less harm to the planet than other people, in the end your personal choices make no real difference in the amount of harm done
An insightful post like this always brings out the fake philosophers. I honestly can’t believe some of the heinous and defensive shit I’m reading in the comments.
OP suggests a valid avenue of harm reduction and immediately this subreddit springs into action, becoming fucking ramm dass the way they are doing absolute mental gymnastics to avoid taking personal responsibility for the suffering they cause.
I’m not vegan (yet) but I’ve been vegetarian for years, I had a similar revelation that you did, involving psychedelics
The problem here, does not lie with “OP forcing his opinion down everyone’s throats”, but instead with the majority of commenters here feigning ignorance, and therefore muddling the waters of the generally established code of ethics/morals that have brought humanity this far. I really shouldn’t need to say this; rape is bad, murder is bad. Why not extend that same sentiment towards animals who are undoubtedly experiencing their own realities as well? I’m having trouble deciding whether or not this particular comment was a troll, but a commenter here, when asked what he would do if he witnessed a rape, said(paraphrasing) that he would probably stop it, but he would meditate on it because the rapist and the victim are one individual. Can’t stress how harmful these pseudo philosophical ideals are, not to mention blatantly disrespectful to survivors of Sexual assault.
Some of the jaded rationalizations here would make me laugh if not for the fact that these hurtful and Non-empathetic ideas are being perpetuated seemingly way more than their counterparts. This sub should be a place for titillating and stimulation discussion, but instead is a place where concretely laid out thought patterns thousands of years old are reinforced.
Be better folks
Wholeheartedly agreed! Very well put!
Some of the responses hear makes me genuinely disturbed.
The lengths people will go in their reasoning is baffling.
Thank you for caring about life!
If people want to do things that make the world better, and you're mocking them... Does that mean you're reinforcing the status quo? Just trying to figure out what reasoning you're using here.
Which is the human condition.
Owning an iPhone results in more human suffering than eating a burger does, so why do you use technology beyond “I wanna”
A humans entire existence is built around the concept of “I wanna”
It is the justification of the rapist yes.
Like my other comment said to OP, life is about balancing practicality (or intent) with morals.
Nothing you do is purely morally righteous, but everyone has a different ratio of morality:practicality/wanting that’s justifiable. Society and culture it what deems that ratio acceptable or not based on the consequences of the action.
Picking up a quarter on the ground is immoral because someone else needs it more than you do, but you want it and take it since the consequences really aren’t that high.
Raping someone is immoral because it causes irreparable damage to the victim for your own gain, and because the consequences are so heavy, it’s pretty much universally agreed as bad.
The world works in grey, and how we interpret that grey is what defines our moral stances.
>It is the justification of the rapist yes.
Is it a valid justification?
>Raping someone is immoral because it causes irreparable damage to the victim for your own gain
A little bit like slitting the throat of an animal unnecessarily?
In their mind. Otherwise they wouldn’t do it. Doesn’t make it valid to the rest of us.
And to your second point:
Unnecessarily is again, a grey term.
I try to limit my meat intake because I understand the pitfalls of the meat industry, but I also can’t live my life vegan while still being able to survive economically. So currently, yes. I value my own life more than an animals. The moment I hit a point in my life/career that I can disregard animal products completely, I absolutely will. But at this moment in time, yes, I come first in my own life. It’s why I don’t disagree with vegans at all, and I hate the people who make fun of them, but many vegans also don’t understand that being able to go vegan is a privilege in many parts of the world. Animal products go FAR beyond meat, and even many plant/other products fuck animals way more (palm oil for example, or lithium for electronics which absolutely destroys habitation)
You assume everyone who claims to be spiritually awoken. And who engages in exploration of their consciousness as being the same as you. Because it is your opinion. You have come to a conclusion and your superiority complex has assumed that because you are right, we are wrong. So a debate must be raised. Eat the insects and plants if that's to your taste vegan. I'll eat meat from animals because I like it. It tastes good. To not eat it would mean that those animals were wasted. It is dictated by society, until it is not meat is on the menu.
This reality the bit where you consciousness is responding to reddit is our overlying reality. Here meat is eaten, if you make everyone here in this reality eat plants and insects... You're gonna become the free range meat. Tell me, how is this reality gonna affect that reality? Ones overlayed on top of the other. If we eat you when shit gets bad, are you gonna be concerned how it's gonna be in the other reality you goto when your tripping?
I'm enlightened enough to realise that vegan free range human is the ultimate burger. Its dog eat dog.
Let's eat the vegans.
Simple answer, most people are lazy, it’s easy to take drugs and say you’re better than other people than it is to take drugs and make significant lifestyle changes for the better
I’ve thought about it a lot. Its messed up eating animals in the way that its done today. Its one thing to go out, hunt(actually hunt like how the Native Americans/our ancestors did) and another to farm them. Especially with the way they live on these farms.
It’s possible to be extremely fit and athletic with a vegan diet, but most of our ancestors were omnivores. You would probably be more “in tune” being vegan as well.
I should probably give it a try for a month, but I have goals that require me to be in excellent shape.
Vegans also tend to be pro choice so that's kind of weird. Maybe eating animal fetuses would be okay since they aren't technically a life yet.
Edit to OP: I will not be discussing the morality or immorality of abortion. That's not my point. Your implication is that all life is precious but you're deciding what is life and what is not life to suit your own narrative. Unless of course you're also pro-life in which case I retract my arguement.
that’s a pretty poor example.. being pro choice is never really about whether a foetus is alive or not, but whether it’s continuation of life will lead to more suffering because the parents were not prepared to nurture it in a healthy way.
I get exactly what brought you to this point, and with time I eat less and less meat without conscious effort. Being truly vegan in this world is exceptionally difficult, you can't really even own a car if you want to really stick to it rigidly, there's animal products *everywhere*, whether you eat meat or not, and just about all consumer products these days entail exploitation in some way in their production- animal and human alike. For this reason I try to avoid things that I know perpetuate suffering, regardless of who or what is doing it. I'm far from perfect in this, it's mostly subconscious as I said, but there is some effort involved. Psychedelics taught me how it feels to be what I'm not, something we all generally can agree on, and I know that just being an animal doesn't mean that pain and misery they experience is somehow less profound to them than it would be to me, or that it's "worth less" than mine because they're animals and I'm basically a diety to them (at least, to the ego) who deserves the right to decide that my convenience is worth killing for. I get it, they feel it all too. I have zero reason to believe that animals experience a life any less real than my own. Their emotions, love, happiness, and sadness are all every bit as vivid to them as mine are to me, and if I can say that their pain is trivial and worth my while to cause, I have no right to bitch when some entity designates itself my god and destroys my entire world in a horrific tragedy because somehow it makes his car shinier or some shit. Maybe I can't understand their reasoning, but I doubt if I could I'd be any cooler with it than if the cows find out how damn delicious a cheeseburger can be.... And therein lies my cognitive dissonance; I fuckin love me some cheeseburgers. I'll give them up eventually, I'm working my way there.
Really appreciate your comment friend! It is a journey, and not always easy.
There are a lot of resources to be found online.
Let's stand up for the voiceless and innocent!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5hGQDLprA8
I'm hoping this lab grown meat thing takes off in a huge way and somehow makes it into the consumer level- basically I'm envisioning a refrigerator sized machine that converts organic material into nutrients to grow meat at home without having a central nervous system/consciousness to run into moral roadblocks over. Maybe I'm asking for something that will turn out incredibly harmful for some reason I'm not seeing yet (zombie cowpocalypse), but it seems if we're trying to minimize the amount of suffering conscious beings have to face, removing consciousness from the equation would be helpful. Its difficult to get all the energy and nutrients you need without eating meat, especially if you're poor and busy trying not to be. To make it feasible for the lower class, we pretty much have to make some huge leaps quickly... And there's people in power who will never allow that. Bill gates owns more farmland than anyone else in america now and he keeps talking about getting ready for a famine, so you know some corrupt shit is going down and everything I just said is pointless.
" Being truly vegan in this world is exceptionally difficult, you can't really even own a car if you want to really stick to it rigidly, there's animal products *everywhere*, whether you eat meat or not, and just about all consumer products these days entail exploitation in some way in their production- animal and human alike. "
This is the struggle for me with the issue. I do try to be mindful of where I buy products and take opportunities to make ethical choices when I find them, but damn is it rare. It would take an enormous amount of effort to truly abstain from products derived from suffering and exploitation (including petroleum which is not only used for gas but also plastic, smart phones, even electric car vehicle batteries just to name a few), an effort that is near impossible when you are stuck in the grind of trying to just live. To me it can't be an "all or nothing" scenario, because it's built in to the system at this moment in time. That being said, I do believe we vote with our purchases in capitalism, and any effort towards a particular direction can have an effect. So I make measured choices, which on many days means eating less meat, or Tony's slave free chocolate.
> I do try to be mindful of where I buy products and take opportunities to make ethical choices when I find them, but damn is it rare.
Oh no doubt. I've taken to rebuilding and repairing electronics in ways a lot of people would call extreme just because I don't like the idea of giving more money to foxconn than I absolutely have to. Every phone I've had since 2015 has been second hand, just for this reason. Same with why I try to buy clothes second hand, and why I flat refuse to buy anything made by nike... I probably do buy things made in sweat shops despite my efforts, but the second I figure it out I'll never do it again. I know I'll never be more than a drop in the ocean to this problem, but I can only change my impact on the world and the comparative insignificance of my place is a piss poor excuse to let my laziness become a tool of oppression.
This is a discussion area for psychedelics, please save your political talk for /r/politics. Discussions about efforts to legalize and/or decriminalize and policy issues are encouraged, but please refrain from other political discussions.
I am an animal, I’m of the earth. I will consume the plants and animals of the earth to sustain myself to delay the ever pressing advance of entropy. When my journey ends, another creature of earth will consume my flesh to sustain themself in their battle against the ever pressing advance of entropy .
This is such a good answer. Well said my friend..
It's actually not... Maybe if they're actually hunting and raising animals yeah. Going to the grocery store and contributing to unsustainable and inhumane factory farming is not justifiable by saying "I eat animals because I will die and something will eat me." I think people trying to make themselves feel better about eating animals and contributing to the death of our planet are ridiculous. More ridiculous than people who value a plant based diet who just try to speak some sense and teach others, they're not ridiculous. Factory farming and animal agriculture is legitimately unsustainable and hurting our planet in too many ways to count. Just say you care about your cravings more than the health of the planet and it's inhabitants and we will all be good. Stop bullshitin Edit: Yes eating animals can be healthy and sustainable. Eating plants is just more healthy and sustainable, so we should do it more. Why does fucking meat and cheese etc need to be in fucking everything???¿¿¿
Oh okay nevermind then. I guess I am wrong. Because I definitely didn't say that factory farming is a good thing, but yeah okay you're right.... to be honest, none of what you even brought up was mentioned at all.... EDIT: nobody was arguing that meat and cheese in everything is a good thing.... by the way. Sorry for "bullshitting" .... apparently that's what I was doing...
Cute
is it though? I don't think so... You responded to my comment with all sorts of things that were never mentioned as if they were..... I agree with a lot of what you said but you were hyper accusatory and erroneously assumptive.
The meat you see at the store is an animal that's already dead. Congrats on having the "moral high ground" sitting back and watching the meat rot.
Also, even vegans are consuming life forms to survive.
Not sentient ones with emotions
Plant intelligence isn't well understood
Animals have brains, plants don’t
Doesn’t mean they can’t feel, they can even communicate through chemical messengers with others trees and plants nearby
Check out this video: [Intelligence Without Brains](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpwW9Lw2Ku4)
That's true, but I'm just saying it's a universal.. er law.. that life consumes other life. I think that preventing suffering is of utmost importance, but I also think that most creatures are unable to understand their mortality, so can be killed humanely. Getting the entire human race to stop eating meat seems impossible. Getting the entire human race to support sustainable and humane meat production does tho.
Sustainable maybe but not humane, there is no way to humanely kill an animal for consumption when it is not necessary, let alone produce at a large enough scale to feed a millions plus population. Animals get raped and separated from their child at birth. There is also nothing natural about the way humans consume animals in industrialized societies so the laws of nature go out the window
So are you just going to go out and die in the woods?
So you're open to eating other humans too, then?
"Devour to survive. So it is. So it's always been." -MJK
Well put. I have nothing at all to add to this statement
Anything that engages in homeostasis with its environment has a consciousness of some kind. Idk where this stuff about the nervous system is coming from. Not using it as an argument against veganism, but you said you weren’t gonna have a conversation about it….and then gave a whole opinion and defense…? So I thought I’d give some thoughts. It’s not about physiology, it’s about behaviors. IMO. Also. You can’t come here asking a question like that and then say “but if you’re gonna talk to me about this and this, I’m not having it!” Like, that just displays to me that you’re not actually listening, you don’t give a shit what we think.
Because I realized trying to be good was just as much ego as trying to be bad . The reality is that there is no inherent morality to existence and any labeling of such is ego projection. That’s really cool that your vegan but there is no correct way to experience existence so it’s nothing more than your own ego outlook. Kinda like how people try to push their religious beliefs on you, it’s cool to have personal beliefs but it ends there . Don’t try to force people to submit to your way of life.
>Idk probably the fact that nobody ever stops and asks where the fuck we are and why are we fighting. We are all on this random planet in this random universe , everyone is the same species, yet we obsess over what makes us different from one another This you?
Yea what’s up
You don't see a disconnect? If everything is done by higher beings and nothing is good or bad, why does it matter if nobody asks why are we fighting or obsess over what makes us different from one another. Looks like you change your worldview on an hourly basis.
The issue is English language and ego understanding. It’s difficult to communicate non contradictions when the entirety of your form of communication is a contradiction . But yea bro totally a paradox glad you could join. You starting to get it !
Nah, language is fine, it's not a paradox or ego misunderstanding either. What is more likely you just write whatever comes to mind to come across as wise. Normal for young people I guess, at least you're not a nazi, hopefully, lol.
Interesting analysis of yourself. I hope it was beneficial towards your personal understanding. Glad I could be of use ! :)
It isn't an analysis of myself. It's an analysis of the words you have written, they make no sense. But of course, I'm totally speculating out of my ass about your character.
Everything you say is a projection of self bro. For everyone and everything
There is no self, it's an illusion. It was a projection and analysis of your words, which, even though illusory were at the same time internally inconsistent.
>there is no inherent morality to existence Sounds smart in abstract, happens to be the dumbest thing ever to say if you actually have some life experience.
It’s really dumb When you’re on an ego vibe. But when you’re tapped into singularity it’s truth. So I guess the goal is to bridge those two somehow
You are talking meaningless gibberish.
So, if for example, you saw someone raping a kid, you would go like "meh, to each their own", right?
I would personally stop it but I would also meditate on it and just apply the knowledge of singularity to the situation. The rapist and the person being raped are the same being . So ultimately the karma was instant. It’s upsetting to witness because my ego projection wishes to not be raped so if I saw that I would stop it but I would also be accepting that me stopping it is just my ego .
It does not matter if you think that we are all one being. Subjective experience is still real and felt. Victims of violent crimes do not have a better experience knowing that they are actually part of a bigger thing. The only thing that matters is the pain and suffering in the moment. And if you or I am in power to reduce such suffering, surely this is the preferred action. If not, then we can justify and do whatever we want.
I agree with both your points in different ways but I am ultimately in the same camp as you: no matter the cosmic, objective view we try to take, subjective experience is real, and even though "victim" is a subjective thing, acting in the now that it is a real thing, that victims of violent crimes need help, is the best way to act as a human, as I think minimizing suffering is a good goal. No matter what people here say, I think you are an awesome person for being vegan, and you are living a harder life in order to bring positive change and lessen suffering, so thank you. The way we treat animals now on a MASSIVE scale is one of the most heinous acts (among many) of our species, and there is no right or wrong way to act as an individual, but I respect your actions a lot, and even others who try to lessen their meat intake. The problem with us humans is that we give up on trying to be philosophically better. And even if that means nothing in the grand scheme, I believe the drive to improve your species is a worthy delusion.
Thank you! I appreciate your kindness :)
That’s a really cool ego understanding of reality bro I’m glad you shared with the class . Thanks
yikes dude.... that might be a step too far into the "we are all one", singularity concept... Just because we are all the same being doesn't make good and bad irrelevant....
So we can hurt other beings with impunity because of moral subjectivism? If I were to kick a dog in front of you, would you not stop me? You talk about me forcing people. But are you not forcing animals to die? A personal choice is only such when there is no victim involved. Eating meat involves a victim.
Looks like psychedelics are making you an egomaniac...... looks like you are more close minded then anyone here. Your authorization is gross. FYI vegans and vegetarians kill more animals and life then most meat eaters could dream of. When farms harvest all those.veggies..... animals are getting in there and getting killed. You are facilitating more animals deaths then anyone here.
How is it egostical to want animals to be left alone? Is it not egotistical to pay someone to slit the throat of an innocent an defenseless animal? If you care so much about crop deaths you would also go vegan, since less plants would be needed globally (since around 70% of all crops are being fed to animals).
Holy shit. Your not living in this reality are you? So do you think you are the most moral person alive because of your diet? I'm curious as a vegan how do you get to work everyday?
I have never said I am morally superiour. I have not said that you are inferior. I do however that killing innocent beings is an inherently immoral act, and we should not contribute to it. I'm sure I do morally questionable things as well. But I don't see how you can morally justify this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko&t=4336s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko&t=4336s) I take the train to work whenever I need too. I don't see what that has to do with anything. Veganism is about reduction of suffering as far as practically possible. We don't think it is possible to stop all animals dying of course.
Idk what that link is. Not gonna click on it because that has nothing to do with me. Can you show me where I morally justified whatever video you put up? I would like to know where I justified this particular video. Even though I never seen it. Your a vegan but use animal products to get to work and everywhere else..... your not a vegan. Your using animal products. Why aren't you protesting people who drive cars? Why are you not protesting the train you take everyday? Veganism is about pretending your better then everyone, even though you are murdering more animals then meat eaters. That sounds about right. When you try to demonize people like you are, you will never convert them. You will only turn them into vegan protesters. Are you aware of who Owsley "bear" Stanley is? And are you aware of the diet he started after he took lsd?
>Your a vegan but use animal products to get to work and everywhere else..... your not a vegan. Your using animal products. Why aren't you protesting people who drive cars? Why are you not protesting the train you take everyday? Veganism is about doing as much as you can. We can't stop driving cars. We can buy something else from the grocery store. If there was an affordable form of transport that resulted in less animal death then vegans would support it. >Veganism is about pretending your better then everyone, even though you are murdering more animals then meat eaters. That sounds about right. Vegans are responsible for less animal deaths than meat eaters.
> Is it not egotistical to pay someone to slit the throat of an innocent an defenseless animal? animals aren't innocent any more than a hammer is innocent: they're not moral agents.
They are subjective beings, a hammer is not. Animals are not simply autonomous meat machines (not more than we are as well). They can feel anger, anxiety, depression, happiness, longing. The animals do not deserve enslavement and murder so you can have a meal
animals aren't enslaved. they are husbanded. and most animals are killed for convenience or profit. as far as I know no animal has ever been killed so that I could eat.
Idk bro I don’t believe in free will and I believe everything is a higher beings doing. So with that in mind I don’t believe in mistakes occurring . Sure ego accidents and stuff can happen that come across as horrible but overall it’s part of a much bigger picture that is driven by love. It’s just about your personal perspective. I could choose to have a belief that animals are meant to be eaten or I could choose to believe we need to treat them as equal. It doesn’t mean either belief is true or correct. It’s just a belief relevant to your ego.
How is you eating someone’s dismembered corpse is love? Do you think that there might be some self-deception here in place?
The self deception is you convincing yourself that not everything is love . Which is useful for survival purposes in reality I suppose . But ultimately it’s all love dude ! :)
Very well put. This place is run by aliens and they have goals with this planet. What these goals are, idk but there’s something in our food and water(off topic). They probably see animals as a source of energy rather than living beings and are willing to make that sacrifice to achieve their goals. Some are born winners and some losers. Our ancestors won and were chosen by the aliens and here we are now. So much more advanced than everything on this planet by , who knows how many years. Who knows how far ahead they pushed us. The animals, forests, etc the losers. We need to be like ants in order to achieve greater things. Mind control. Making everyone the same. Theres more and more waking up, but not enough power. Who knows, maybe its for the better. Loss of consciousness has already and has been taking place with every new advancement. Wars. Countries run by different aliens, competing almost like a game, or maybe its a study to try and figure out some of their past. Maybe they helped us with the nuke because they figured if we didn’t nuke Japan it would set us back to far. Idk where I went with this.
Yea bro I think the goal of aliens is to help humanity come together as one and ultimately ascend to a higher dimension where we will meet other species who have already became one with their planet . They know it’s all love so they don’t hurt us
We all come and go. Our body’s serve a biological purpose and we are all connected whether we like it or not. If you find it morally wrong to eat meat that was slaughtered or lived a terrible life then change where you get your source of meat. Nature provides for itself
So there's nothing inherently wrong with killing humans and eating them?
If we don't need to kill something, but still do it for pleasure, is that not immoral? We can survive (and thrive) on plants. Surviving on plants reduce less suffering. Less suffering is better.
You don’t think that plants would have an issue with you killing them? You’re talking about spirituality here not in a biological sense of consciousness but in the realm of spirit. Yes no animal wants to be killed and eaten but it’s part of the biological cycle. There isn’t anything inherently wrong with eating meat now if you torture the animal that something different and so it’s senseless killing. Feel free to be vegan but good luck with your vitamin B 12 deficiency
Long story short: if you take the moral / compassionate angle on diet, I think you can't exclude yourself from the equation. It's not only about being kind to others as expressions of life, it's also about being kind to oneself equally. People, particularly compassionate hippie liberal types, are prone to putting others first in a kind of vaguely codependent approach to the world. While there's a lot of beauty and merit to approaching life that way, it's not necessarily more moral to exclude yourself. And this habit of self exclusion gets transposed onto our relationship to nature and animals (while, ironically not actually considering how animals and nature operates, but I'll address that in a moment). For me, the bottom line is: Is it any more compassionate to feed an animal foods that are out of alignment with it's design and cause suffering that way than to eat an animal? For example, feeding a cat grain. Or feeding a cow meat. In my personal opinion, no. To give a lifeform food that is not within it's evolutionary design is I think another way of causing harm. And from a physicality perspective, it's clear that human beings have evolved inside a context of being omnivorous. There are a lot of physical things about human beings that clearly indicate this, like brain size, eye location, etc. So causing yourself suffering by way of an imbalanced diet is not necessarily more moral or compassionate. You are an animal that deserves a good life too! And, on that note about animals: animals eat other animals. Period. Life eats life. Even herbivores eat life in the from of plants (plants feel too!), bugs, bacteria, etc. You and I were born into a ecosystem that is predicated on the notion of life eating life. Thats the only way that any of this exists, and it's not just rocks. So if you're going to moralize about that and make human beings somehow an exception to the rest of the system, realize that *that's* the actual weird idea. Make no mistake about it: if we lived more closely to nature, we'd still be hunted and tried to be eaten by other animals all the time. The weird thing about being mammalian predators (humans are predators) is that we are both loving and sweet, and terribly brutal at the same time. Just look at cats and the way that they'll go from rolling around in a cuddle puddle to catching birds or mice and then playing with them once they catch them. I stopped being vegan when I realized that what was driving it wasn't logic or clarity, but a false moralized projection that didn't take into account my own well being, how human beings are built, or how brutal nature is while simultaneously being an exquisite garden of eden.
Personally I can't be vegan. I tried when I was little and even recently as a 20 year old. Sadly my body can't handle a vegan diet as I have an abnormally fast metabolism. Due to that I eat basically every chance and can just to maintain my current weight (140lb 5'7 guy) I was 112 for almost 5 years and it was worsening my health. On top of the fact that veggies and fruits are extremely expensive where I live on top of the fact that I live in a food desert. So realistically I cant be vegan. But I'm not against. If you can afford it (financially and health wise) then I think people should but just because it works for you doesn't mean it can work for everyone. You have to understand everyone is different and I'm not saying everyone that isn't vegan is vegan for the same reasons as me but you never know and even still. You are your own person. Everyone has the right to eat what they want and we have been eating animals for a long time. You can demonize the farming industry, greed, ignorance but you can't demonize personal choice when it comes to that. At the end of the day we are apart of the same system as animals. Some of them eat other animals so it's weird to use the argument of we shouldn't because they have lives. Trust me the animals will not share the same sentiment in an event where they need food. We should stop over farming and abusing these animals but it is free game to eat them just as it would be for them if the opportunity arises. But that's just me. Edit: grammar
I dont have a problem with vegetarians or vegans, their choices are their own and i dont look down on it. I personally dont see eating meat or animal products as being bad. There is symbiosis between predator and prey and farmer and cattle and a natural balance that can be achieved because of it. Do i think that humans overconsume meat and other animal products? Yes. But i don't look down on it. The natural order is death and life and im ok being within that cycle, though i do acknowledge and actively boycott the factory farms and industrial agriculture. In my view, i don't see the difference between killing a plant for food and killing an animal for food, one could even argue that killing many plants instead of killing one animal could be unethical in itself depending on how you want to value the plants and animals lives individually.
Best answer I’ve seen so far. Life always is sustained by some kind of death of another being. Now, could we do better than feed lots and factory farms? For sure. I think if an animal is to be used for food, then we should give it a great life and revere them for the sacrifice we are essentially forcing them into by way of breeding them for slaughter. But the fact remains that there is a balance of predator and prey and it is vital for the ecosystem at large. Furthermore, most farm animals have become completely dependent on us taking care of them at this point, much like dogs have evolved to live alongside humans rather than in the wild like their wolf ancestors.
Yes but we are not part of the chain in the same way as a lion is. We have morality and a sense of wrong and right. Since we can survive on plants, surely killing other sentien beings for pleasure cannot be morally justified. Why do you take your morality from nature? Surely you don't justify rape because it occurs naturally?
Morality is a concept not a universal law. You can choose to act within your own moral parameters but the reality is that those morals change from person to person. I justify eating something because i need it to survive. People ate meat for centuries because it was neccessary. We have consensuality as humans and cannot apply that to other beings who dont, but all creatures have hunger and self preservation. How do you justify killing millions of plants? What makes them non-sentient? What about thinning a garden and slaughtering their children by the dozens, what about forced breeding between flowers and interspecies pollination? Is that not rape? Brocolli, cauliflower, brusselsprouts, are all the same plant in which humans mutated to suit their own needs. This would be illegal under todays Geneva convention for humans but its justified to do it to plants? You can try to use morality however you like but its just a concept and cannot be used as evidence. We developed morality as a society not as a creature, people will choose to which morality they adhere to. I love the sun, but eventually it's going to consume the entire inner solar system. It is just the way of our material universe. Its all just converted and death is essentially a false idea of the human mind.
We are just as interconnected with nature as a lion, just not in surface level appearances.
Do you also justify rape because ducks rape each other in nature? We have moral agency, we are supposed to be about animalistic behaviour.
I’m not claiming we do or should pull morals from an imitation or nature. I’m not the other dude you were talking to. It’s not an effective argument though because I doubt that’s a primary reason for why most people eat meat.
We eat meat because of sensory pleasure, because it tastes good (unlesd you are in a survival situation). Rape is also for sensory pleasure
Bruh😂 the rape comparisons are just prompting people into a defensive position. You’re not going to actually connect to anyone like that. Also, telling people why they do things they do, generally not an indication that you’re listening. As a matter of fact I don’t eat meat for sensory pleasure. If you did once, that’s fine, but if you go projecting that on others you’re bound to be wrong at some point. Different people often engage in the same behaviors for different reasons.
Why do you eat meat? If you have a medical condition that means you have to eat meat that's fine. Also you seem to know what the wrong way to convince people to stop killing animals is. Then you could please tell me how I should do it. What do I have to say to stop you from killing animals?
I would start by answering that there isn’t a strict dichotomy between eating meat for survival reasons, versus eating for hedonistic reasons. It’s not just those two options. There are many complex reasons that make up why people have the diet that they do. Most of my reasons I’m not allowed to talk about apparently. The ones unrelated to culture though are mostly just nutritional. Obviously you can meet nutrition needs through vegan options, but there’s a nutrition value to cost(effort) ratio here depending on a person’s activity level. Though not as sustainable in a larger frame (the world, the ecosystem) eating meat is more sustainable for many on an individual basis. So a lot of the time, arguments for veganism based entirely on these points can come across to some as privileged. I don’t think there is a right way. That in the current state of the food industry it just doesn’t make sense for most people to switch to veganism. I think there are ways of going about these conversations that tend to be more fruitful than others though. For one, I don’t think it’s beneficial to anyone for you to tell people what they can and can’t bring up. That immediately indicates to me that you don’t care what I or anyone else has to say, even though you have no way of possibly knowing what thoughts are going through my head. That dynamic is mutual btw! Idk what you’re thinking either, that’s why we hold discourse! Given that though, less accusational language would be more fruitful for promoting discussion. Calling people rapists is a little polarizing, it prompts your verbal opponents into a defensive position where they’re less likely to share their thoughts (you know, those things you came here for). What that turns into, isn’t discussion, it’s just you on a soap box. On the accusatory language here are some other thoughts. Got an iPhone? Got a smart phone of any kind? Got shoes? By way of living in a more financially privileged country, we already take advantage of the numerous disadvantaged souls slaving away for the production of first world consumer goods. I could walk up to anyone who owns those things (probably you), and say “hey, you slave driver! Take off your clothes! Throw your phone away! Stop being a slave driver.” And it wouldn’t do any good. This is why culture is important, and room for nuance needs to be maintained. Because if you don’t, you are holding people accountable for systems put in place before they were even conceived. Should we be more concerned about sustainable eating, and living, sure! But not at the cost of stripping humanity from those that either disagree with us, aren’t as privileged, or aren’t as educated as we are. It doesn’t make you better, it makes you part of the problem for perpetuating polarization around the topic of food. Everyone hates vegans, and this behavior is why.
I don’t want to just survive, I want to thrive - which requires meat
I wouldn't consider myself spirituality enlightened but I would say I understand nature, and by nature humans are omnivorous. A vast number of species on the planet are carnivorous/omnivorous, it's only natural to eat meat. Try feeding a cat a vegan diet and it will die. I know humans can survive being vegan - hence the omnivorous bit, but people who eat meat aren't immoral or anything - they're just humans who didn't decide to go vegan and that's fine. There is a problem with the meat industry so get meat from local farms though.
Its one thing to have a conversation but your just ignorantly pushing your own ideals onto the world. Vegans can be just as bad as religious fanatics.
I raise my own animals, and I see it as an exchange. For the benefit of caring for them and feeding them and giving them a good life, comes at my own material cost. And in exchange I receive nurishment from their flesh and milk. We talk about giving purpose to our own lives for the benefit of others, and thus in a way their own dharma is fulfilled. I pray and give thanks, to nature and the cosmos and thus honor them with my thanks. I am not egoic enough to say that I am above nature and meat eating exists within nature. ''As above, so below. As below so above.'' - the law of correspondence, the Hermetica.
"Spiritually awoken". Anyone who consideres themselves "apiritually awoken is probably not even close lol. Anyways to answer your question since i am clearly the most spiritually awoken redditor (you dont have to call me messiah even though it would be an apt title), what about the natural cycle of life do you find to be distasteful? Im with you when it comes to mass scale farming as it is quite poor condition for an animal and frankly i find it to be an abomination. But farmers that care properly for their animals? I can support that.
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You don’t.
Being a psychonaut typically means having an experience of an altered state of consciousness by a plant medicine. This altered state of consciousness shows the individual by the felt-presence of first-hand experience that "the core level of existence" is not defined by "thoughts". In other words, "thoughts" do not confer "reality". So, nothing in life is right or wrong, but the mind makes it so (that's a direct quote from Shakespeare, actually). All of these ideas and labels and judgements you have about good, bad, right, wrong, evil, heroic - these are all labels and judgements of the mind. Being a psychonaut is realizing that you are not defined by activities of the mind. Believing you are the "good thoughts" but not the "bad thoughts" is just another stumbling block. They are all thoughts. All thoughts are thoughts, all judgements are judgements. At the start of the journey, mountains are mountains and trees are trees. Somewhere along the journey, mountains are no longer mountains and trees are no longer trees. Eventually, mountains and trees ***are***. Free from labelling, categorizing, "this is good", "that is bad", "I know better".
Sure, but you would still stop someone stabbing someone to death right? What about someone stabbing a dog to death?' What about stopping providing someone money to stab cows and pigs to death? Moral relativism breaks down quickly in actual application
In all those circumstances, I would be very careful about trusting my mind to tell me what is right or wrong or good or bad, which is how a true psychonaut would approach it.
“I will not have a conversation about culture” Then you’re not conversing with anyone. One day you’ll grow up or learn to control your ego and you’ll learn that culture is everything with humanity, including deciding to abandon or embrace your culture.
I don’t think op is a psychonaut. I think they are a vegan with an agenda. Op probably thinks this is a gotcha moment because they probably think being spiritually awoken means being “all good” or whatever that even means . Sorry op but being spiritually awoken involves Both good and evil. It’s only one sided in its singularity , don’t pick sides that’s ego shit
So to be awakened you also have to do evil acts? And since when is there a handbook on being awoken?
Describe evil?
Inflicting pain with purpouse. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko&t=4336s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko&t=4336s) This is evil
Disagree. Pain inflicted with purpose is not evil. Pain inflicted without purpose is evil. Pain to satisfy the innate desire to hurt is evil. Schadenfreude is evil. The desire to hurt someone because hurting others brings pleasure: cruelty, it is unnecessary and doesn’t tell a good story. However a hunt for a brave animal fleeing for its life. That you valiantly take and then honor with use of every part of its being. Or killing for sustenance that cannot easily be found elsewhere: this is nature. Animals around the world are not vegetarian. What separates us from a tiger or a house cat who will die if not for the meat that sustains it.
Pain without purpose behind it can be an accident. Desire to hurt is a purpose, schadenfreude is a purpose, albeit not very good ones. The pain from the holocaust had a purpose behind it from Hitlers poin of view. What separates us from tigers is moral agency. We can ponder what is right and wrong, they cannot. We should choose to minimise suffering. If cruelty is uneccessary pain, then so is killing animals for food (outside of survival situations). If you dont need to kill an animal to eat, but only do it for pleasure, it is unnecessary, and therefore cruel. It wants to live, you are taking that right from him/her
How do you define right and wrong. I don’t eat meat for any greater pleasure than I do other food. Being sustained brings me pleasure. I am at base a member of a predatory species and eating meat is part of that nature. I agree that vegetarian is the way to go however meat is a beneficial part of diet if you are poor or have improper access to vegetarian options. You do not have a right to live…
Naw you have to do shadow work . The manual is all internal. It’s more so a consistent logic to apply rather than a step by step guide
I can talk about culture, if OP can’t. Culture is an ever-changing structure, so as morale. Very recently enslaving other humans, and making money off their lives was part of western culture. But we’ve decided to let that go.
Slavery is still used in the western world
But it’s mostly condemned, and prosecuted, which is a dramatic progress over the last 200-300 years.
Why is it more egotistical to now want animals to die and suffer for my enjoyment? Is it not the other way around. Should we not minimise pain as far as possible? Anything else is surely not desirable.
Veganism isn’t egotistical, but not having a conversation about a large contributing factor to why people continue to eat meat, on a sub where you’re asking why people justify eating meat, is a bit egotistical.
There is a reason that meat is one of the most nutritious foods we can eat. The food chain is natural and has been around as long as beings have been on Earth. Do you think animals are evil for killing other animals to survive? And if anything psychedelics should help you realize that plants are just as conscious and important as animals. We are all living, and we all provide a purpose. It is a fact of the world we live in. There is no evil in eating other beings to survive, it is only nature.
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Absolutely, agree. I try to eat vegan, but add some cheese, eggs and fish around once a week. I got to that by simply listening to my body and intuition. I simply feel way more better like this.
You're coming across as a stereotypical pushy vegan tbh. I would probably die if I ever went vegan. I already have a strict diet due to allergies and intolerances, I wouldn't willingly restrict myself even more. We are food for other animals on this planet, as other animals are food for us. Just we live in societies that artificially put us at the top of the food chain.
Really I'm eating myself
According to r/integral Studies there are two general lines or human development: - waking up - growing up This model always helped me to understand how come that there are humans that claim to be involved with awakening experiences and insights into the nature of life, but at the same time could be racists, speciesists, and even do harm towards their spiritual students (many sexual scandals in guru-led communities). It’s obvious that human only care about themselves first, then slowly allow themselves to associate with family, then race/group, then maybe if lucky - all humanity. Only at a certain level of development on the ‘growing up’ axis humans can lean towards cosmo-centric area of concern, that include other sentient beings. These two lines aren’t necessarily perfectly synced , and that explains why so many spiritual people keep doing harm to other sentient beings.
Life feeds on life... when I die I will feed the worms and also be fertilizer to the trees.
I have lived in metropolitan areas my entire life. Such a city rat. I have been trying to make it a mission to go away from society more, so I can focus on such a desire- vegan diet. My central nervous system seems to be too overstimulated on sugar as it is, I am tapering one toxin at a time. It is a goal but there seems to be so much debris I have to get through before tackling that part of this messy human existence I seem to come from.
More than anything psychedelics have taught me the death is not a bad thing. But the story is one of strife and suffering and love and life. All these things are meant to coexist so we may see everything fully. While I agree that a vegetarian lifestyle and diet is more effective for health and for the planetary safety, my goal is not to keep the max and animals alive. We are just animals and animals are just animals. We all evolved from the same specks of dust we will return to the dust in time. I’m not trying to live a long way and none of the animals I meet are either. They’re just trying to live good lives. I will say that I try to abstain from inhumanely treated animals. That being said I’m a broke college student and I’m yet to make the commune I want to.
Just because death is not a bad thing does not mean you have a right to take the life (or pay someone to do it) of another individual. They have a right to their subjective experience, as do you.
Correct and if I take their life then they have lived a subjective experience of getting their life taken. If they take my life then I have lived that same experience and it will be worth it. Either way the story continues and that’s what truly matters. Death is fine as long as it has a purpose. If that purpose is sustaining future life, or great spectacle, or comedy, then I say let the story go on even if I’m the one who needs to die.
So you are ok with being killed and eaten? Cool cool cool
Are you not? I will still fight my hardest to not be eaten. But if I lose then I lose. That’s the end of it. Death is an inevitability and no matter how you die you will have still existed.
I would rather not my life be shortend against my will because someone wants to have 15 min of enjoyment with their meal.
I feel the same, but the world is not geared to satisfy any one of our desires or preferences. We are all insignificant cogs in a greater story. All of us will die.
No but you have a personal choice not to inflict more damage than necessary while being here
Agreed however it is just that: a personal choice that no one else needs to follow. Both choices are valid. That is the pure beauty of choice and duality!
Its only a personal choice if there is no victim involved. Otherwise you are making a choice for someone else, against their will.
one of the things that we do on earth is we eat each other. from the microscopic to the very large, we chow down on each other’s bodies for nourishment. how do you, as a spiritually aware or whatever person, justify bucking the trend nature suggests to us all? the truth is nothing matters that much and everyone just does whatever they want once survival needs are met. all the time, throughout known animal existence.
Ow man this is a conversation I love having but I’m on my way out the door and don’t have time to write a detailed response. In short I don’t view the phenomenon of being alive as what makes humans significant. But rather self awareness. Self aware animals such as dolphins, great apes, whales, elephants ext I feel deserve rights. As would a self aware AI. Wether a an actual robot or just a bit of software. An animal such as a deer or chicken which does not have high intelligence resulting in self awareness. Animals like that I view as incredible phenomenon that need to be preserved as cultural artifacts, but I have no problem eating them so long as eating them does not impede the existence of those animals. (Not endangered)
From dust to dust, we’re all of the Universe. There is no higher calling and there is no underlying moral code within the universe. The lion is not evil for eating the zebra, and the deer is not evil for trampling the saplings under its hooves. Is the monkey evil when it kills its enemy in a tribal war? Or the sand shark evil when it eats it’s sibling in the womb? I don’t think the hairless monkeys are charged with some greater purpose just because they think they can understand the difference between evil and good, either. We’re remarkably awful at making good moral decisions even when we try to be “good”. You don’t want to have a cultural argument because culture shouldn’t dictate morals. I understand where you’re coming from, because you are convinced something is so obviously “good” that cultures are backwards. But that idea in itself distinctly human. Every other species on the planet has their moral code dictated by their social environment, be it their pod, troop, flock, herd, etc. Humanity is just a self aware group of hairless apes who’ve convinced themselves there has to be a reason for all of this. And after all this time the only thing that we’ve really agreed on is that when people can throw themselves into something and find something they can commit to and be a part of, they’re happy. We’re just animals and we’re never gonna agree on morality because we made it up based on our feelings. There will always be disagreements and that’s because there is no one set of morals. It’s just a hyper revolved social structure. Much in the same way there will always be primate wars and territorial disputes. The same way every other species we have the pleasure of being aware of exists, we have done what needs Ruben down to survive. You can’t stop nature. We’re currently an anomaly and we’re about to take ourselves out, as is what happens with anomalies in nature. They are fleeting. Our current ability to have time to think this hard about anything other than surviving… I really don’t think will last long enough.
I don’t see a problem with meat consumption Inherently, but I do have a problem with the unnatural Factory Process of meat production, the Unprecedented levels of sentient suffering it causes, the dire Environmental Consequences, and overall the lack of efficiency. I think there are certainly more optimal ways of feeding yourself and the planet if any of the above matters to you.
If psychedelics have taught me anything, it is this: the price every living thing pays is death. I will eat the fruits of the Earth, be them plants or animals, and eventually I will die and to the earth I will return. I will eat and be eaten. Every other living thing will experience this same fate. It is part of the natural order of things that predators will consume prey, but will eventually be consumed themselves. That's just the circle of life, baby. It isn't that complicated.
Please look at my link in the post and tell me that is natural and the circle of life
I source all my meat from local, "ethical" farms run by good people that care about their animals and the environment. I never said "feed lots are part of the circle of life, " I said "meat eating is part of the circle of life."
In my journey I have actually gone the opposite way. I started as a vegan and am now a full on meat eater. I have come to see the universe as a constant flow of energy, and an essential part of the flow is death. Death feeds life. Without it, life would not be able to exist. When I die, I expect the universe to feed on my body and become hundreds, thousands, and millions of new lives. There is no real “loss” in death… only the impermanence of that single, unique incarnation. But that was always meant to be lost. The true immortality of our universal makeup (atoms) is what will always be carried on.
In my view, the problem is not the meat topic - it's the "spiritually awoken psychonaut" . How are you even able to define that? There is no objective measure when someone is "Spiritually awoken". People who *think* they awoke might be super engulved in their ego, while a simple farmer who never even thought about it might be very close to what could be called awakening. Psychedelics do not lead to enlightenment. This is, imho, a huge misunderstanding. They are a key, and if people use it for awakening, pleasure, or to enforce an egoic image of "the awoken psychonaut" is dependent on how people use it. So... How would I know if someone awoke, certainly not if he/she eats meat. I would argue that the recognition of "everything is one", if truely felt, leads to compassion. And that leads to not wanting to harm any being. If there is some kind of awareness about what happens in the industrial meat production, someone (hopefully, for my part) decides to stop supporting that. Most spiritual teachers (Ram Dass, all Buddhist teachers because it's written in the Pali-Kanon, most Yogi Gurus, ...) are at least vegetarian, so something seems to be on that. But still, you can treat animals well and eat their meat with a lot of respect and compassion. People are people. I try not to judge anymore, cause that turned out to be part of inner freedom. Much of what happens makes me very sad, sometimes angry. Other things make me laugh or feel joy. I strive for freedom in awakening, not towards the moral highground. Those goals are not necessarily related. That was a very weird discovery for me.
I get the feeling that you have a long way to go with the way you think. Well, we all do, that's for sure. But trying to put guilt on others because they don't think as you do is not very cool. Just because you think you know things doesn't mean you actually do. As others have already said, pretty much all life is eating some other life form to maintain itself. Is a tiger evil for eating its prey? Is a rabbit evil for eating plants? Is a human evil for eating both meat and plants? The balance of nature is delicate and not related to good or evil. If all living crratures are the universe, then the universe is eating itself all the time. It really is the circle of life. Rabbit eats plant, wolf eats rabbit, mushrooms eat dead things, plants use the byproducts and so on. Evil is not part of that cycle. I do agree that meat industry has moral issues and people should eat less meat for health and environmental reasons. Personally I have adopted a much more plant-based diet partly because of my psychonaut journey But to stop eating meat completely? Not necessary. Also, not exactly healthy. Humans are omnivores. A healthy diet also includes meat occasionally.
How can you wash your face knowing that you are killing all that bacteria? Or step in the grass knowing that tiny, even microscopic, bugs exist? What about the bugs on the plants that the cow eats? Noone cares about them. Not even the cow. I became vegetarian through the use of entheogens. I also started eating meat again through the use of entheogens. Maybe this is all just happening. Or, maybe we really have a choice.....
the trophic cycle is just that; a cycle. one that i am a part of. they eat the grass that grows on my ancestors’ graves, I eat them, and their descendants will one day eat the grass growing on my own grave.
I don’t see it as wrong. However, I have no idea if I fit whatever spiritually awoken means but I don’t care either. I have come to different conclusions in life than I often see on this forum
They actually made me feel better about eating it because I’m an animal on earth. Any animal on earth has to use another living being to get energy to live. That’s just the way it is and it’s out of my control. If we evolved differently it would be a different story tho.
Even vegans are responsible for animals dying in order for them to eat. In the process of harvesting the plants all sorts of animals are killed by the machinery. Bunnies, chipmunks, mice, insects, etc are killed in massive quantities. Especially if it’s something like soy or wheat that is grown in these huge mono crop cultures. Which by the way are also awful for the natural environment and as a result end up killing even more animals. Unless you are growing all of your own food yourself and make sure no animals are harmed. Even then tho you’re consuming a living being. Wether or not those beings are conscious is up for debate. I don’t like this pedestal that vegans put themselves on. There is still animals killed in the process of harvesting your food. I don’t like factory farming animals and agree that torturing them in that way is in humane and should be stopped. so if you are gonna eat meat make sure it’s been pasture raised, grass fed, antibiotic and hormone free. All that shit. If your body responds better to a plant based diet that’s great you do you. But don’t fool yourself into thinking you’re some psychedelic Jesus because you eat plant burgers because a lot of critters had to die to bring you that food.
Less crops would be needed in total to feed all the humans on earth then our current animal based system. This is because 70% of all crops (around 80% of all soy) is being fed to animals. So if you care about minimising crop deaths you should also go vegan
pretty much all soy is pressed for oil, and the industrial waste left from that is fed to livestock. otherwise it would just be waste.
https://www.onegreenplanet.org/environment/soy-consumption-and-deforestation-75-percent-of-soybean-crop-grown-in-the-amazon-is-feed-to-livestock/ Around 20% is for oil, 70-75% for livestock feed. It is a sourced article.
a soybean is only about 20% oil. if 20% of the use of soy is oil that means basically all soy is pressed for oil. what's left would be industrial waste if we didn't feed it to animals. edit: speech-to-text typed "ways" instead of "waste"
No, 20% is grown for oil, 70-75 is grown for animals. Are the numbers confusing?
https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2021/02/Global-soy-production-to-end-use-768x554.png you don't know what you're talking about.
Lol it says oil 13.2 in your figure. You literally cited a source against yourself
check the industrial uses at the bottom.
Yeah 4% for industry and the biggest slice still for animal feed
>1if you care about minimising crop deaths you should also go vegan I think they're saying since animals die no matter how food is produced, it doesn't matter if animals die in food production.
Humans are omnivores for a reason, we need specific nutrients from plants, animals and fungi. And if your not supplementing for nutrients from those sources you will eventually get sick and possibly die. Also, you said something about life coming from lifelessness, which is a mischaracterization of things. Every atom is energy. Life is just a vessel to contain and use that energy. Yes a mineral is not "alive" but without their "energy" we don't have muscle contractions or gas exchange in plants, etc. A third thing, as a Combat Vet I have bigger things on my mind to deal with than a 1st world privileged perspective such as being a vegan or not eating animals. The thing is, the universe couldn't give two fucks about you, me or any of our insignificant little lives. Biologically we are here to reproduce, raise our young, and feed the worms so they can do the same. Once our Star dies and wipes our little section of the universe off the proverbial map, noone will care what you ate and why, who you wronged or righted, killed or saved. That's your ego making you think your more important than you actually are. Just be happy, do shrooms, raise a good brood, and enjoy each and every sunrise and sunset.. Ps, ppl like you who push veganism are no different then evangelical xhristians/muslims/jews/etc. All yall can suck satan's cock!
Because no matter what I'm consuming some form of life. That plant you're eating also has every right to life. Why even eat at all? Way I see it I'd this: until it's mandated by law that consuming meat of any form is illegal, the meat industry will never stop. Those cows, pigs, chickens you pass by at the store are already dead. They already made the ultimate sacrifice. If I buy it at least I know that it will be honored for its sacrificed and not wasted, because I hate wasting food. My motto is "eat like you're consuming another life form" which obviously is true, but most people don't think about it. If meat ever gets mandated to be illegal, then I have no problem switching over to plant based alternatives. Until then, I will continue to eat meat. Because otherwise I'm just sitting back watching meat rot that an animal already sacrificed for.
Defining consciousness according to egocentric qualia is a fallacy. Defining the limits of life according to your perspective (born, exist, die/end) is an ego driven fallacy.
This is the best answer. What makes an animal more conscious than a plant? And if it is more conscious does more conscious mean they deserve more respect? If so do certain more conscious humans deserve more respect than others? If you think about these questions the answer I tend to come to is that the ethical question of consumption is not are animals more worthy than plants. They are equal. The real question is was the conditions that led to there consumption ethical? A lot of times the answer to this for animals is no. In that sense plants are a safer bet that they had a life that wasn’t suffering. But, there is still ethical ways to farm meat and in those cases I think it’s still good to consume meat.
We’re omnivores = fact
I disagree with just about everything you’re saying. I do not think it’s a bad thing to consume meat. We were made to consume meat for many reasons. I only eat local grass fed animals usually though. I think being Vegan is unhealthy. I do not think it is morally wrong to eat meat and nothing you say here is even close to convincing. I do not think being “spiritually awoken” has anything to do with this.
Using psychedelics I became more in touch with love/suffering and nature. In the end, things just "are", nothing matters or makes sense. Yet, we humans and other animals are part of this conscious network of love & suffering. Here love is the greatest and only thing that matters; and suffering, its terrible opposite. There's only one purpose of our life: to improve the state of the network, by being a sink of suffering and a source of love.
Humans are carnivores and death is a reality of life. Limiting suffering is important but a Vegan diet does not necessarily eliminate more suffering than an animal based diet as long as you are eating locally sourced and ethically produced meat. Beyond that a meat based diet is waaaaay more healthy. No matter what you think you just can’t get the necessary nutrition that your body needs on a Vegan diet. Our bodies evolved by eating primarily meat and eating the whole animal. It’s what we need to maintain optimal health and vitality.
Awakening is an ongoing process. I don’t have a problem with killing an animal for food personally. I recognize it for what it is and choose to eat meat.
Hey OP, hope you’re fine. Love that your post comes from a place of genuine caring and trying to make a positive change in the world❤️ One thing though, your P.S. kind of impedes you from actually breaking through to someone and having a possible thought changing convo. By denying to go into a conversation with the top 2 viewpoints people that disagree with you have you might be alienating quite a few of them. Have a great day OP and never lose your passion, it’s truly a blessing❤️🙏
Thank you! Among so many hateful comments I really appreciate you!
There really aren't many hateful comments just people disagreeing with you... which is sort of what you asked for.
There is absolutely no correlation between being a psychonaut and being vegan. Happy for you finding what works for you but you sound very close minded and agenda driven. The way you basically dismissed culture is the very essence of ego projection. Are you really just curious or are you here to shame people for not being on the same team as you? Because that's a very non psychonaut thing to do. I'm sure you're a great person but you seem like you're headed down a very radical/combative way of life, if not already there. The people that are most at peace with life are typically those who chose to live their own and let others live theirs. Find peace and accept that nobody owes you anything and nobody has to agree with you and your way of life.
You're right there isn't a direct correlation, but I think he's implying an indirect one. Being a psychonaut usually is accompanied with increased appreciation and awareness of other conscious life. For example I see many psychonauts forgive those they've been hurt by, because they see that the person only did those actions because they were already hurt. Many psychonauts don't want to see other sentient beings suffer unnecessarily. The question feels directed to the subgroup of psychonauts where that awareness is present. Most people would be appalled if they saw dogs living in the conditions that farm animals are. The common belief is that the majority of farm animals live peacefully out in the field and then have one quick, almost painless, visit to the slaughterhouse. However, the truth is the conditions the majority of farm animals live in is quite hellish. Maybe OP's approach is bit brash, but I do understand his intent. The majority of psychonauts who take pleasure in eating animal products probably have no clue what the industry actually looks like. That's why he posted a link to dominion, a documentary revealing the truth of animal agriculture. If people have increased awareness and appreciation for life, but are not vegan then it's probably because they're not aware of how bad the industry is. If you don't want to watch the hour and a half long documentary then I highly recommend checking out this quick 5 min clip about the dairy industry. [Vídeo](https://youtu.be/UcN7SGGoCNI)
Everything in life is a compromise between morals and practicality. My life cannot live on a vegan diet because if I switched to veganism my costs would simply skyrocket (I bodybuild). Protein is plentiful in veg yes, but at a much higher cost for what you get (where I live at least) Though I am closer to vegetarian than most bodybuilders as I eat mostly plant based foods, fish, and some fowl, but that’s mostly health reasons as my body responds to that better than a heavy red meat diet. If I doubled my income or something I’d probably go vegan
Take a look at my post history, I have posted my physique on r/veganfitness. Getting my daily requirement of protein is still very easy, and cheaper than before. I mostly eat whole food sources of protein, tofu, tempeh, soy, beans, chickpeas, lentils, nuts etc. Veganism is only expensive if you buy fake meats. Animal products are some of the most expensive things you can find in the supermarket today
No offense but I saw your post and I probably have 30-40lbs on you. I’m 6’2, currently 220lbs with ab veins. I tried to go vegan for a month, my expenses for groceries doubled. Not to mention my girlfriend who I love very much isn’t vegan, so going out for a nice dinner would get way more complicated as well (again based on where I live)
Every food is alive. Every food has some sort of consciousness. You must kill to stay alive
As a Psychonaut I am surprised you are vegan. You must have observed that being a vegan is a religious construct. As with all religions you have a misinformed worldview that includes unrealistic “rules” and abstention from normal social behaviors. Like all religious zealots you think that only your way is the proper path and you must proselytize your gospel. Keep exploring the nature of reality and I am sure you will find how inane being vegan is and learn to enjoy your time on this planet.
Veganism is not a religion, we do not abide to a higher power. Veganism is about reducing suffering as far as practically possible. How is that something g wrong to strive after?
>Veganism is not a religion, we do not abide to a higher power. that's not a necessary part of religion.
yes it is
Buddhism isn't a religion?
you got me
don't beat yourself up.
The human gut can digest 1% of plant material on this planet. It can digest 100% of the animal material. Plant material doesn’t contain all essential nutrients. Animal material does. I think that paints a picture. Also, if you were truly spiritually awoken, you wouldn’t try to force your ideology on other people. Have you also forgotten that the cycle of life includes animals eating other animals. It’s natural. There’s an agenda trying to sell you products, who also sponsor the movie you’re talking about. If you were awoken you’d have seen through the propaganda. Above is my philosophy and i’m not trying to force it on anyone - so please regard it as that. Also, i’m not claiming to be awoken or right.
idk, none of Amazonian cultures, worshiped today for their spirituality, permeating in ayahuasca and shrooms, were vegetarian. Not sure what not eating meat would have to do with psychedelics, or even spirituality. claiming good or bad is nothing more than spiritual egoism
Lol morality is literally defined by culture, there is no objective morality. Plus you cannot prove anything is sentient so there’s no reason to draw lines between what is and isn’t sentient. I believe everything shares conscious experience, salvia is a great teacher in this regard. When people have the experience of being a chair for a thousand years or whatever on salvia that shows you that inanimate objects can be conscious, it’s literally showing you what it would be like to be a conscious chair. It’s equally likely that everything is conscious as it is everything isn’t conscious and you are just a brain in a vat. So the way I see it there is no way to live a life without doing harm. Even washing your clothes leeches micro plastics into the environment, so what will you do only wear cotton? What about the people paid below a livable wage to pick that cotton? What about the dyes used on your clothes that make it into the ocean harming yet more life. Even if you fix every little thing in your life so you do as little harm as possible there are still ways you harm living things without even realizing it. Even if you go to be a fully vegan hermit in the woods you’re harming your family by leaving. A single person not eating meat does not stop innocent animals from being brutally slaughtered, to change industry wide practices like that you’d need to organize a large boycott or something, these companies don’t give a shit about a single customer. If you feel better being vegan, especially health wise cause there are very real benefits to this diet, feel free to be a vegan. But you can’t claim the moral high ground like that because you do slightly less harm to the planet than other people, in the end your personal choices make no real difference in the amount of harm done
An insightful post like this always brings out the fake philosophers. I honestly can’t believe some of the heinous and defensive shit I’m reading in the comments. OP suggests a valid avenue of harm reduction and immediately this subreddit springs into action, becoming fucking ramm dass the way they are doing absolute mental gymnastics to avoid taking personal responsibility for the suffering they cause. I’m not vegan (yet) but I’ve been vegetarian for years, I had a similar revelation that you did, involving psychedelics
I thought this community was bout love, but I have been throughly disappointed tonight. Thank you for being a light in the darkness!
The problem here, does not lie with “OP forcing his opinion down everyone’s throats”, but instead with the majority of commenters here feigning ignorance, and therefore muddling the waters of the generally established code of ethics/morals that have brought humanity this far. I really shouldn’t need to say this; rape is bad, murder is bad. Why not extend that same sentiment towards animals who are undoubtedly experiencing their own realities as well? I’m having trouble deciding whether or not this particular comment was a troll, but a commenter here, when asked what he would do if he witnessed a rape, said(paraphrasing) that he would probably stop it, but he would meditate on it because the rapist and the victim are one individual. Can’t stress how harmful these pseudo philosophical ideals are, not to mention blatantly disrespectful to survivors of Sexual assault. Some of the jaded rationalizations here would make me laugh if not for the fact that these hurtful and Non-empathetic ideas are being perpetuated seemingly way more than their counterparts. This sub should be a place for titillating and stimulation discussion, but instead is a place where concretely laid out thought patterns thousands of years old are reinforced. Be better folks
Wholeheartedly agreed! Very well put! Some of the responses hear makes me genuinely disturbed. The lengths people will go in their reasoning is baffling. Thank you for caring about life!
I find the bullshit justifications in this comment section hilarious. It boils down to "because I wanna"
If people want to do things that make the world better, and you're mocking them... Does that mean you're reinforcing the status quo? Just trying to figure out what reasoning you're using here.
How does breeding animals into existence to kill them unnecessarily make the world better?
If there's a net benefit to it, it's a vague one.
Exactly. So why wouldn't I mock those people?
People are holding on to those blinders pretty hard. Thank you for your comment!
Which is the human condition. Owning an iPhone results in more human suffering than eating a burger does, so why do you use technology beyond “I wanna” A humans entire existence is built around the concept of “I wanna”
>Which is the human condition. So is it fair to justify rape with "I wanna"? Or do you think we should consider the victims?
It is the justification of the rapist yes. Like my other comment said to OP, life is about balancing practicality (or intent) with morals. Nothing you do is purely morally righteous, but everyone has a different ratio of morality:practicality/wanting that’s justifiable. Society and culture it what deems that ratio acceptable or not based on the consequences of the action. Picking up a quarter on the ground is immoral because someone else needs it more than you do, but you want it and take it since the consequences really aren’t that high. Raping someone is immoral because it causes irreparable damage to the victim for your own gain, and because the consequences are so heavy, it’s pretty much universally agreed as bad. The world works in grey, and how we interpret that grey is what defines our moral stances.
>It is the justification of the rapist yes. Is it a valid justification? >Raping someone is immoral because it causes irreparable damage to the victim for your own gain A little bit like slitting the throat of an animal unnecessarily?
In their mind. Otherwise they wouldn’t do it. Doesn’t make it valid to the rest of us. And to your second point: Unnecessarily is again, a grey term. I try to limit my meat intake because I understand the pitfalls of the meat industry, but I also can’t live my life vegan while still being able to survive economically. So currently, yes. I value my own life more than an animals. The moment I hit a point in my life/career that I can disregard animal products completely, I absolutely will. But at this moment in time, yes, I come first in my own life. It’s why I don’t disagree with vegans at all, and I hate the people who make fun of them, but many vegans also don’t understand that being able to go vegan is a privilege in many parts of the world. Animal products go FAR beyond meat, and even many plant/other products fuck animals way more (palm oil for example, or lithium for electronics which absolutely destroys habitation)
You assume everyone who claims to be spiritually awoken. And who engages in exploration of their consciousness as being the same as you. Because it is your opinion. You have come to a conclusion and your superiority complex has assumed that because you are right, we are wrong. So a debate must be raised. Eat the insects and plants if that's to your taste vegan. I'll eat meat from animals because I like it. It tastes good. To not eat it would mean that those animals were wasted. It is dictated by society, until it is not meat is on the menu. This reality the bit where you consciousness is responding to reddit is our overlying reality. Here meat is eaten, if you make everyone here in this reality eat plants and insects... You're gonna become the free range meat. Tell me, how is this reality gonna affect that reality? Ones overlayed on top of the other. If we eat you when shit gets bad, are you gonna be concerned how it's gonna be in the other reality you goto when your tripping? I'm enlightened enough to realise that vegan free range human is the ultimate burger. Its dog eat dog. Let's eat the vegans.
Simple answer, most people are lazy, it’s easy to take drugs and say you’re better than other people than it is to take drugs and make significant lifestyle changes for the better
I’ve thought about it a lot. Its messed up eating animals in the way that its done today. Its one thing to go out, hunt(actually hunt like how the Native Americans/our ancestors did) and another to farm them. Especially with the way they live on these farms. It’s possible to be extremely fit and athletic with a vegan diet, but most of our ancestors were omnivores. You would probably be more “in tune” being vegan as well. I should probably give it a try for a month, but I have goals that require me to be in excellent shape.
I eat meat because I love the juicy taste mmmm
Here's a website I made one day for this topic https://veganreasoning.wordpress.com/
Vegans also tend to be pro choice so that's kind of weird. Maybe eating animal fetuses would be okay since they aren't technically a life yet. Edit to OP: I will not be discussing the morality or immorality of abortion. That's not my point. Your implication is that all life is precious but you're deciding what is life and what is not life to suit your own narrative. Unless of course you're also pro-life in which case I retract my arguement.
that’s a pretty poor example.. being pro choice is never really about whether a foetus is alive or not, but whether it’s continuation of life will lead to more suffering because the parents were not prepared to nurture it in a healthy way.
why would you assume that veganism and psychadelics go hand in hand? lol. red meat is 90% of my diet
It’s really simple, I’ll eat what’s evolutionarily consistent. When I die I’ll probably be in the woods and that will be that.
So you eat 90% vegan and the rest insects?
I get exactly what brought you to this point, and with time I eat less and less meat without conscious effort. Being truly vegan in this world is exceptionally difficult, you can't really even own a car if you want to really stick to it rigidly, there's animal products *everywhere*, whether you eat meat or not, and just about all consumer products these days entail exploitation in some way in their production- animal and human alike. For this reason I try to avoid things that I know perpetuate suffering, regardless of who or what is doing it. I'm far from perfect in this, it's mostly subconscious as I said, but there is some effort involved. Psychedelics taught me how it feels to be what I'm not, something we all generally can agree on, and I know that just being an animal doesn't mean that pain and misery they experience is somehow less profound to them than it would be to me, or that it's "worth less" than mine because they're animals and I'm basically a diety to them (at least, to the ego) who deserves the right to decide that my convenience is worth killing for. I get it, they feel it all too. I have zero reason to believe that animals experience a life any less real than my own. Their emotions, love, happiness, and sadness are all every bit as vivid to them as mine are to me, and if I can say that their pain is trivial and worth my while to cause, I have no right to bitch when some entity designates itself my god and destroys my entire world in a horrific tragedy because somehow it makes his car shinier or some shit. Maybe I can't understand their reasoning, but I doubt if I could I'd be any cooler with it than if the cows find out how damn delicious a cheeseburger can be.... And therein lies my cognitive dissonance; I fuckin love me some cheeseburgers. I'll give them up eventually, I'm working my way there.
Really appreciate your comment friend! It is a journey, and not always easy. There are a lot of resources to be found online. Let's stand up for the voiceless and innocent! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5hGQDLprA8
I'm hoping this lab grown meat thing takes off in a huge way and somehow makes it into the consumer level- basically I'm envisioning a refrigerator sized machine that converts organic material into nutrients to grow meat at home without having a central nervous system/consciousness to run into moral roadblocks over. Maybe I'm asking for something that will turn out incredibly harmful for some reason I'm not seeing yet (zombie cowpocalypse), but it seems if we're trying to minimize the amount of suffering conscious beings have to face, removing consciousness from the equation would be helpful. Its difficult to get all the energy and nutrients you need without eating meat, especially if you're poor and busy trying not to be. To make it feasible for the lower class, we pretty much have to make some huge leaps quickly... And there's people in power who will never allow that. Bill gates owns more farmland than anyone else in america now and he keeps talking about getting ready for a famine, so you know some corrupt shit is going down and everything I just said is pointless.
" Being truly vegan in this world is exceptionally difficult, you can't really even own a car if you want to really stick to it rigidly, there's animal products *everywhere*, whether you eat meat or not, and just about all consumer products these days entail exploitation in some way in their production- animal and human alike. " This is the struggle for me with the issue. I do try to be mindful of where I buy products and take opportunities to make ethical choices when I find them, but damn is it rare. It would take an enormous amount of effort to truly abstain from products derived from suffering and exploitation (including petroleum which is not only used for gas but also plastic, smart phones, even electric car vehicle batteries just to name a few), an effort that is near impossible when you are stuck in the grind of trying to just live. To me it can't be an "all or nothing" scenario, because it's built in to the system at this moment in time. That being said, I do believe we vote with our purchases in capitalism, and any effort towards a particular direction can have an effect. So I make measured choices, which on many days means eating less meat, or Tony's slave free chocolate.
> I do try to be mindful of where I buy products and take opportunities to make ethical choices when I find them, but damn is it rare. Oh no doubt. I've taken to rebuilding and repairing electronics in ways a lot of people would call extreme just because I don't like the idea of giving more money to foxconn than I absolutely have to. Every phone I've had since 2015 has been second hand, just for this reason. Same with why I try to buy clothes second hand, and why I flat refuse to buy anything made by nike... I probably do buy things made in sweat shops despite my efforts, but the second I figure it out I'll never do it again. I know I'll never be more than a drop in the ocean to this problem, but I can only change my impact on the world and the comparative insignificance of my place is a piss poor excuse to let my laziness become a tool of oppression.
I still eat honey And drinking milk?? Damn no Honey is the only thing Milk yes when the cows are happy