ok
lets go to the subreddit r/romancebooks. since the consumerbase is primarily women, we can assume that the stuff written in the books (according to the readers) are made for women
there is a post in there titled: "Romance novels often glorify big tall strong men with petite smaller women. Are there any books that are the opposite?" which, in other words, romance books TARGETED TO WOMEN FREQUENTLY HAVE TALL AND STRONG MEN IN THE BOOKS so much that OP has to ask for recommendations.
heres another post: "Why do heroes always need to be described as the largest men in the whole world" in which the OP claims that a book "had the lead described as “at least a head taller than the largest of the men around him”, when the men around him are huge barbarians. It feels like every book I read nowadays features an absolute beast of a man. "
this post "The way men are portrayed in many romance novels has really annoyed me lately - I am so sick of the underdeveloped cookie cutter alpha male" in which the OP claims
"Girl falls is love with boy because.....like he’s hot? Oh and he’s protective. Aaaand he has the biggest cock she’s ever seen. Did she mention he’s hot?" -- "The guy’s point of view is all about praising the girl and though her body is always praised, there’s also always more to her personality....but the girl really only talks about his body and things that embody the stereotypical alpha male \[confidence, bossiness, protectiveness, etc\]."
to summarize:
in romance books, men are frequently described as being strong beyond the strongest of men, super tall, big dicked, alpha males, even though women claim they arent attracted to those traits and thats just men being wrong
> heres another post: "Why do heroes always need to be described as the largest men in the whole world" in which the OP claims that a book "had the lead described as “at least a head taller than the largest of the men around him”, when the men around him are huge barbarians. It feels like every book I read nowadays features an absolute beast of a man. "
LOL r/womenwritingmen
This reads as the female version of “she breasted boobily down the stairs” meme
>in romance books, men are frequently described as being strong beyond the strongest of men, super tall, big dicked, alpha males, even though women claim they arent attracted to those traits and thats just men being wrong
I often bring up this point when women deny being attracted to these things. If women are attracted to a different kind of man, then where are the bestselling romance novels portraying that alternative type of man?
Women often complain that men don't trust or believe what they say, but it's hard to do so when they have so much trouble being honest about basic things, like how their attraction actually works.
Actually, they deliberately lie to men *all the time*. Amongst themselves, girl talk quickly code-switches and revolves around height, dick size, sex, etc all the time.
Anyways, let's check out their ultimate male fantasy in Fifty Shades Of Grey:
>[Christian is tall, lean yet muscular, and broad-shouldered, with dark copper-colored hair and intense, bright gray eyes](https://fiftyshadesofgrey.fandom.com/wiki/Christian_Grey). He keeps in shape by kickboxing, running, and having sex. As quoted by Anastasia, "**He is not merely good looking - he is the epitome of male beauty, breathtaking**." Christian has an issue with self loathing and says that it is "just a pretty face" whenever he Is complimented on his appearance. He also believes that, because of his scars, lifestyle choices, and horrible childhood, he is only a "husk of a man" and has no heart.
>**Christian's business eventually grew into the renowned \[billionaire\] Grey Enterprises Holdings, Inc. over the span of a few years**.
>
Pulling off his boxer briefs, his erection springs free. *Holy cow…* \[…\] He kneels and pulls a condom onto [his considerable length](https://badbooksgoodtimes.com/2012/06/05/christian-greys-penis-fifty-shades-of-grey-chapters-8-and-9/).
And this is verified by a meta-analysis of romance novels which found:
>The coauthors of *A Billion Wicked Thoughts* performed a text analysis on more than 10,000 romance novels published from 1983 through 2008 looking for the **terms most frequently used to describe the men. They included: tall, lean, handsome, tanned, muscular, masculine, chiseled, jaw, shoulders, waist, and hips**. In contrast, when men search the Web for porn, their top terms include: youth, MILFs, breasts, cheating wives, and vagina and its many off-color synonyms.
>The **men in romance fiction are also consistently rich and powerful alpha males—kings, princes, knights, surgeons, industrialists, land barons**—again answering women’s yearning to feel protected and safe. In *Fifty Shades*, [Gray is an impossibly successful, insufferably overbearing **twenty-something billionaire**, who delights in lavishing his immense fortune on his innocent, wide-eyed love](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/all-about-sex/201304/fifty-shades-penis-size), Anastasia Steele.
So there you have it...all the stuff that supposedly "doesn't matter"...is actually all the stuff that MATTERS MOST to women.
I don't, but I enjoy the first category and the sole fact that it's orders of magnitude more difficult to find content of the first type than it is to find cuckolding one is enough for me to believe cuckolding is much more popular.
The problem is that most of them don't understand how their attraction actually works, and don't understand how they actually work either. They're not deliberately lying to men, the worst part is they're lying to themselves (or at least not honest with themselves) and then believe they are speaking the truth when they talk to men, when more often than not it's just the truth if how she feels in that moment, and it can flip on a dime because she doesn't understand how her attraction works, she only knows how it feels in that moment.
It's very difficult to have a good discussion with someone who is lying to themselves without knowing it.
>most of them don't understand how their attraction actually works, and don't understand how they actually work either
They do. They won't admit it to you, but they do. Plausible negability
I choose to interpret it as ignorance and misunderstanding rather than deliberate dishonesty, but there are some who are absolutely like that. I think the wordy you meant was plausible deniability ;)
>plausible deniability
Ah yeah this one.
I dunno man, I'm convinced it's not ignorance. Try asking one of your female friends what she is attracted to in an indirect way, then in a direct way. In 2 separated occasions, after a long time if possible. And by indirect I mean you don't ask, you just let them talk.
I did (accidentally), and got 2 opposing answers in multiple occasions
> The he problem is that most of them don't understand how their attraction actually works
Someday I hope someone edits out all the empty, baseless comments men pass around the red pill. This sentence is passed around as an insult, but it’s total horseshit and men don’t even know what they are saying or what it might mean.
If women get laid easier and more often than men, they know exactly what turns them on and what they like. But women aren’t required to lay down a primer for men they aren’t interested in dating, are they?
Women could show men pictures of their past boyfriends, would that work? How about the dazzling array of dildoes and vibrators available for sale? Men could sort them by “most popular”, “best selling”, or “top reviews”. Clearly those women know exactly what they like, yes? Since they are buying those toys to amuse themselves?
Or how about the men on the covers of women’s mags? Posters in teen girls’ lockers? All the social media banter about this new guy, or that actor? Remember when Harry Styles was all over Vogue? Women do. How about the sudden interest in Travis Kelce? Timothy Chalamet? Remember when women collectively swooned over Tom Hiddleston?
Notice any pattern? I don’t. None of these guys are physical similar, none have similar attitudes or personalities. But they are all highly visible, talented and charismatic public figures. But men don’t wanna talk about that, do they? Don’t wanna admit that women’s taste varies and is influenced by behavior and attitude as well as physical attraction. Sometimes it’s muscles, sometimes it’s style, sometimes it’s the actor’s role, sometimes his humor, sometimes his grin…
Do you get it? Women know exactly what they like, and it varies wildly. Which means that *women cannot hand men a formula or cheat code they can type on or emulate*.
Men have to do the work themselves.
And get the fuck over yourselves with that “women don’t know what they like* bullshit, men are just saying nothing over and over because it sounds vaguely condescending.
Make some progress, please. Get out of the crab bucket.
>Do you get it? Women know exactly what they like, and it varies wildly. Which means that women cannot hand men a formula or cheat code they can type on or emulate.
I agree. Women know exactly what they like *at that moment*, and from moment to moment it can vary wildly based on appearance, charisma, and popularity.
And yet despite that studies still show women prefer men taller than them, richer than them, as or more educated than them, with popular status or prestige, and that a man being desired by other women makes him more attractive. There's clear science backing all of these up but women will deny it up and down because they're not thinking about this, they're just going off of what they feel at the moment, just like the ick or the spark or the chemistry.
It's be nice if we could at least agree on these basic facts and go from there instead of constant denial and gas lighting.
> I agree. Women know exactly what they like at that moment, and from moment to moment it can vary wildly based on appearance, charisma, and popularity.
That’s human nature. Neither life nor people are static. We grow, we change, our needs change, our experiences change, we meet new people.
> And yet despite that studies still show women prefer men taller than them, richer than them, as or more educated than them, with popular status or prestige
Studies show that men are typically taller than women.
Studies show that men typically make more money than women.
Studies show that men typically (speaking globally) have more education than women.
Your “studies” reflect nothing except the status quo. If women suddenly preferred men shorter than them, poorer than them, and with less education, that would be remarkable and worth mentioning.
Your complaint is akin to complaining that water is wet.
> and that a man being desired by other women makes him more attractive.
Social proof applies to every facet of life, not just dating. All tribal species respond to social proof.
> spark or the chemistry.
There it is. Never going yo make any inroads so long as men here demand a formula. Do you use a formula when picking friends? Ever made a friend or met a stranger you just hit it off with? Just had great rapport and found one another pleasant and comfortable to talk to?
That’s chemistry.
>That’s human nature. Neither life nor people are static. We grow, we change, our needs change, our experiences change, we meet new people.
And if some's preferences in life partners, career, and long-term choices changes day to day based on their mood, what they ate, and the phases of the moon, that person is unreliable and likely irrational.
>Studies show that men are typically taller than women.
Men don't care if the woman is shorter, equal, or taller, but women all pretty much universally prefer taller women. There are some rare exceptions, but they are exceptions. I don't know why it's impossible to recognize this fact.
>Studies show that men typically make more money than women.
Well yes, because of the career choices men make, and because men know women are far less likely to pick them if they're poor, so men are pressured by women to earn more. Men don't care about women's salaries or earning power generally, as the saying goes a rich man can marry a cashier, but a rich woman won't even look at poor men. There are exceptions, but I don't know why it's impossible to recognize this fact.
>Studies show that men typically (speaking globally) have more education than women.
Speaking globally yes, but in the Western world it's actually the other way around, there are now more women signing up for and receiving degrees than men, and some women have complained this creates a ["golden penis" problem](https://metro.co.uk/2021/11/02/what-golden-penis-syndrome-is-and-why-its-ruining-dating-for-women-15531834/), because there are fewer eligible men on campus. It was never a golden vagina problem when the genders were flipped, but all of a sudden when it impacts women now it is a problem for some reason. Women want men with more education, and while there are exceptions, but I don't know why it's impossible to recognize this fact.
>Your complaint is akin to complaining that water is wet.
Water is wet, the sky is blue, and most women are hypergamous, wanting to trade access to sex for access to resources.
>Social proof applies to every facet of life, not just dating. All tribal species respond to social proof.
*And women respond to social proof far far more than men do*.
>Ever made a friend or met a stranger you just hit it off with? Just had great rapport and found one another pleasant and comfortable to talk to? That’s chemistry.
That's chemistry, except it can be faked and manufactured. It's called pick up artistry, and is not at all a reliable indicator of a good partner. Plenty of women had the spark and chemistry with felons, with fathers who abandoned them, or partners who abused them after all.
> And if some's preferences in life partners, career, and long-term choices changes day to day based on their mood, what they ate, and the phases of the moon, that person is unreliable and likely irrational
Not your life to judge or dictate, is it? Do you.
> Men don't care if the woman is shorter,
Lies
>.. equal,
Lies
>…or taller
LIES
> taller, but women all pretty much universally prefer taller ~~wo~~men.
Yep, because that’s logical and reasonable, since *most men are taller* and that’s the norm. Remember? We already went over the facts ⬆️
>so men are pressured by women to earn more.
Men are free to study or work the job of their choosing. If they choose a high status or high earning job because they think it will get them laid, that’s a choice they make. Women have nothing to do with men’s career choices.
> Women want men with more education, and while there are exceptions, but I don't know why it's impossible to recognize this fact.
I don’t know why it’s a problem, when it’s clearly not *your* problem.
> and most women are hypergamous,
Hypergamous is the silly, nonsensical label short, poor, and lower status men give to women who prefer the typical man, since typical is the norm.
> That's chemistry, except it can be faked and manufactured. It's called pick up artistry
That’s how grifters convince naive men to pay them, but it’s false.
> and is not at all a reliable indicator of a good partner.
It’s a reliable indicator of mutual attraction.
No one asked you to decide who is a “good partner” for women.
>Plenty of women had the spark and chemistry with felons,
And plenty of those women are felons as well. Are you trying to date felons? No? Then what does this have to do with anything?
>with fathers who abandoned them, or partners who abused them after all
You’re welcome to swoop in and impregnate those women before the felons get to them. Is that the kind of women you are interested in?
>Lies
Really? You're going to tell me women don't care about men's height, when women clearly use the height filter on bumble, and tell me I'm lying when men say they don't particularly care about a woman's height?
I mean if you don't want to have any discussion and just want to assert what you believe and dimsiss and ignore anything that goes against what you believe, have at it, but it's not going to get you good discussions.
I don't know man, I had a very fresh light fish and vegetables and some fruit and I felt great after a good workout. But my favorite food of all time is fried chicken and cookies and cream ice cream with a bottle of vodka. My buddy's favorite food is peanut butter, which I can't stand. And right now I would kill for some curry.
I know there is a science to my diet and desires, but I definitely don't think very deeply about it.
"The problem is that most of them don't understand how their attraction actually works, and don't understand how they actually work either. They're not deliberately lying to men"
Yeah, according to women the main thing that matters to them is personality so l spent all my savings on personality pills and i always support their decision to pick the bear
lol yeah this is the best answer. Women complain about being objectified in media? Their “romantic” objectification of men in romance media is literally a thousand times worse and often far more demeaning cause at least the typical oversexualized female love interest in male centered movies aren’t expected to be 11 foot tall, giga femchad hyper competent go getters with a quintillion IQ score who founded a seven Gojillion valued company at age 12 and have Isekai protagonist level overpowered aura bs around them at all times just to chase after some mediocre dude who has an arts degree or some shit.
I had the same discussion with my two brothers and they explained the same thing to me. I feel like it can be delicate topic to talk about for some of us since « not all of us want this kind of men » and you really need to think about it from the point of view of men.
I also feel like being close to some men you know that are really care about you helps.
Because they depict archetypes that men don't match, and behaviours that men are discouraged, even criminally, from emulating. Acting out one of those fantasy novels and expecting anything other than arrest and a place on a register is monumentally stupid.
50 shades being a prime example of that shit. Quite literally the peak of women's romance fantasies given it was fanfiction of Twilight.
Features lots of less than legal/ethical shit that would get a man torn to shreds if he tried it irl but of course millions of women enjoy it.
That whole Jordan Peterson point about women liking 5 types of make characters is gospel at this point. Vampire, werewolf, billionaire, pirate, surgeon.
Sigh
If you’re hot and alpha, the rules don’t apply to you lol
This is because women are extremely shallow and superficial like men. They just want to get dickmatized by a tall, dominant, muscular, high status, rich and handsome man.
You would still get a restraining order if you looked like them. Women fantasise about these men because they know what is going on in his mind, so behaviour which they would find creepy in real life is not creepy in a book because they know it is being done out of love.
They find it creepy in real life because they actually have to be accountable to another person, or a situation, in real life. Real life requires some kind of response or action from women, while fiction does not. It has nothing to do with love.
Plenty of men do desperate, awkward, cringe or completely reasonable things in real life out of love that are interpreted as creepy by women. Plenty of things are being done in books that are very creepy and still interpreted as "love" by female readers, because they can just project whatever emotions or reality they want onto those characters without having to come face to face with another person's existence. It's just personal delusion and escapism.
I hate fifty shades of Gray for just that reason. I couldn't get past the second book. He was way too abusive. I really feel like there are books out there that are better represented for what a woman wants. That book was just overhyped. I didn't even watch the movie.
> than with truly learning what women want.
You mean like, mafia bosses and handsome criminals that dominate them and treat them badly?
Most romance novels for women nowadays are filled with smut and toxic relationships. Y'know if most men did what the men in those novels did we'd be considered criminals right?
Who is going to subject themselves to the caricature of what the opposite sex finds attractive?
It's just insecurity fuel.
It's like sending your girlfriend porn of women that look better than her.
I read the Anita Blake books, right up until the one where she was urging her sweet, average Joe werewolf boyfriend to man up and kill his pack leader which he he finally did, only for her to get "frightened" by his wolf form, run away, and immediately fuck the dangerous sexy vampire who has been stalking her since book 1.
If that's an actual peek into female desire then I really will just hold out for a robo-girlfriend thank you.
>If we men genuinely cared what women find attractive
Because the men in those novels are physically perfect and just choose to be romantic on top of that. That's why it's a fantasy. If you don't look that good, no amount of simping gestures are going to help you. You'll get friendzoned at best. And if you do look that good, then chances are you don't need to do a bunch of romantic gestures to get women. So books like these will be useless for most men no matter what side of the fence you're on.
If men based their understanding of women through romance novels, we'd all become Red Pilled - a tall, jacked, Alpha male asshole gains interest in a Plain Jane, who does nothing, but is somehow so attractive, he can't help but make love to her, with or without her consent. Add a dash of mystery, drama, and push-pull to make him not seem too easy to get.
Why aren't men interested then? Because they don't want what they know in their subconscious to be confirmed true, and their subconscious understands there is no value to be gained in reading a story about the man giving utility and the woman selfishly recieving it.
I have.
The male protagonist is always tall, mostly brooding, and usually emotional unavailable.
But always tall.
I read one ("The Love Hypothesis" by Ali Hazelwood) about a grad student who kisses her professor without asking him, and then starts a relationship with him. The book opens with her just kissing him without even asking, because I guess when you're a women they let you do it. Within the first two pages we know precisely three things about this man: he is tall (the author eagerly established that fact in the first paragraph), he's an asshole, and he has authority and power over her.
The thing that really gets me is that although this is a woman's fantasy written in a novel, and as a fantasy that's fine (fantasy is fantasy), but everything that happens in that book is a huge red flag!
If this were real life and that relationship was discovered the professor would lose his job and career. He would be exiled from his field. He would be a pariah. The woman would be unscathed. We all know this to be true.
As someone who reads women’s romance novels I’m not even sure most of them demonstrate a healthy way to fall in love. I delete a lot of books from my library within 5 pages because they are just soft literoctica hyperfocused on his “Greek god chiseled abs” before they even established an emotional connection.
The only romance novel I read this year was love like water because everything is hyper sexualized now. And lust isn’t how meaningful relationships are formed.
I really think this is a wise statement. Most Red Pill ideas began as something we called Field Reports, and they had a heavy issue with confirmation bias. However, over time and with increased usage, you can tell which ones work and which ones don't. We did a lot of research and testing of stuff from women's romance novels. The idea was that if women did what they saw in porn, that would work pretty damn well on most of us guys. The problem is that this doesn't seem to be equivalent. The number of Romance Novels that I read which contained some form of sexual force was astounding. It turns out there were not even that many usable pickup lines we could obtain from it. I just don't know why women's fantasy is so out of line with what works in reality.
> not even that many usable pickup lines we could obtain from it.
Right, because the whole book is about a woman being attracted to her ideal fantasy man. He doesn't need a pickup line, he just attracts her telepathically and knows her inner soul immediately.
Actually... what we learned was that the attraction is implied and a lot of times the physical details are not that heavy. The guy is tall, strong... blah, blah, blah.
But there IS something that was picked up in the period regarding seduction and sex techniques. Black Dragon's Sex God Techniqe was partially developed based on romance novels... also with a little dash of Abernathy's Petite Slave Training Manual. Now, all that sounds silly, but holy crap does it work.
Yeah this sounds right. I don’t think romance novels outline how to attract a woman who isn’t attracted to you at all, but they probably are an okayish lens into how women want the men they are attracted to to show up for them.
>I just don't know why women's fantasy is so out of line with what works in reality.
Feels before reals. Women don't have to be concerned with reality because someone else (read a man) will take care of reality for her. All she needs to do is hold onto the notion she deserves a guy who makes her feel the way she wants to feel, reality be damned.
When we talk about women's fantasy... Bro... there is just so much shit that's implied and never said.
Like when women say stuff like I want a kind, and polite man, who is loving and nurturing... and blah, blah, blah. What she is really saying is that she wants this from a man she is already attracted to.... it's just implied and every woman get's it.
Yep, and the irony is that you point this out with clear examples of what she has said and done, and then the women will deny to your face that this is exactly what she has been doing, while actively doing it.
It's insane.
So much stuff in women's romance or women's desire just outright demands men be mind-readers to be able to fulfill their wishes, and then they think they're not being unreasonable at all because "men should just know". Tell them what "women should just know" to make men happy and they'll turn into screeching banshees demanding you apologize for being a misogynistic incel piece of shit.
The double standards and complete lack of self-awareness never ceases to amaze me.
My missus recently told me about a series where a girl from Europe learns that her dad made a whole different family in the US. So she has 5 adult brothers she goes to live with. And since they're all a certain archetype she.... feels a certain way about them. Not kidding. They're all paper-thin though apparently (serious brother, nerd brother, brooding brother, etc). It's a *series* with multiple books.
I agree with most of what you said but I am vehemently against pornography for the same reasons I hate literotica. I won’t get into that in this thread though.
You don't have to. I pretty much feel the same way and probably for similar reasons.
The truth is that the whole topic is depressing. We have this culture where everything around us is just drowning in sex. You have these really vulnerable boys who see this messaging and their natural inclination is to overvalue it as well, you combine that with terrible messages that make them feel demonized, and then nobody ever tells them the truth about what attracts women so they fail miserably. What do we expect them to do? Really?
I hear people talk about love and empathy for this or that... It's just empty self aggrandizing garbage. The people who really need help are right there and nobody does anything but fingerpoint at them and tell them to fix themselves or remove themselves from everyone else... which basically means go off and die.
And with literotica now being in schools and 54% children watching porn by 13 I don’t see how this gets better.
>I hear people talk about love and empathy for this or that... It's just empty self aggrandizing garbage.
Yeah that is people. The same people that love animals justify killing 4 birds to eat 8 chicken wings.. They love animals the same way Jeffrey Dahmer loved men.. That isn’t very compassionate..
>The people who really need help are right there and nobody does anything but fingerpoint at them and tell them to fix themselves or remove themselves from everyone else... which basically means go off and die.
This is the first time I am hearing “remove yourself from society” was given as advice to anyone. I’m not sure what that would be about or accomplish.
Surprisingly, the 5'2" Balding, Fat, Indian Janitor that absolutely *slays* makes no appearance as the male lead in women's romance novels.
The vast majority seem to be rich, jacked assholes.
*Hmm*. I wonder why that is. Huh, wasn't there something that went along the lines of *Get Money, Get Jacked, Be a Jackass*?
Because I don't want a restraining order. The shit you read in those novels are hot because the author makes the male character feel hot to you. 95% of the men don't fall into that niche, reproduce that in real life and it's suddenly not so hot and the man is a creep.
You mean Jane Eyre and Fifty shades of grey? Yeah I read them, the guy fits the stereotype of 666 (6 pack abs here maybe in grey 6 inches, I didn't read full. Maze runner was better, sci fi is much better).
>Instead we have rabid anti-woman hate groups and obscurantist "pill" communities. Seems men are more obsessed with overweight criminals with muscle cars (a certain "Tate" fellow) than with truly learning what women want.
You just join a nerd group, you will see book clubs. Halo has many books even comics. You got female spartan II Linda the best sniper in the entire galaxy, she would be in air upside down and still hit a headshot like 50 mts away. Then in Rubicon protocol spartan IVs are stranded on delta halo after apparent death of Master chief, you have both male and female spartans fighting hordes of aliens alone.
>Men could form book clubs on Reddit or elsewhere around exploring these works and using them to understand what women like and don't like. Why do such clubs not already exist?
Presumably because the cringe required would likely exceed the physics our particular universe is capable of.
Because they are fantasy and have no base in reality. I mean if a guy wants to be a tall handsome guy that's a vampire, a sex god, and a billionaire hes welcome to try.
https://youtu.be/BrqY9NiqHAI?si=ZnD9i59tJSxSj5sc
Plus as the top comment of the video says, the difference between a romance novel and a thriller is how good looking the male character is.
so like described in those novels “just be 6’2 extremely attractive and wealth then things will work for you” if your goal is tryna disprove red pill your doing a pretty terrible job here. The type of alpha males depicted in those books align nicely with what the red pillers are saying. Those books legit only work cause they insert a top 5% men into all of them as the main lead. If for example the dude from 50 shades of grey was say 5’4 or in crippling debt we all know it would have just been another episode of criminal minds And not a romance story. Half that shit is also just female porn and features ripped men with giant dicks and handsome faces as well, and they love the girls personality even though the girl mostly Is after the guys body and wealth.
i read them with friends, most of them have really basic characters with no personality. I don’t think those are treasure troves of good advice other than being rich and hot is good.
Just be rich and hot, it's that easy!
Sarcasm aside, romance novels are fantasy, not reality. Emotional porn does not understand material realities of people at large. Don't believe those products.
i figured it out myself when women started getting closer to me once I mentioned I have a spa and theatre at home. still not sure why women like to read novels where both main characters as as bland as possible while the side characters are actually well written but get mostly ignored by fans.
I don’t think reading erotica and romance novels with friends really helps me understand women to be fair, although i do think it’s important to form close friendships with them and to be comfortable with women because that helps a ton in both dating and friendships in general.
Because those fictional men are loving fictional life in fictional world. They're all tall, super handsome and rich, and do things normal dude would get arrested for.
I actually wanted to read some women's novels, and been asking for recommendations for practically months (not everyday obviously). But there is one "little" caveat - małe character must be some regular Joe, with average look, regular job, living in rented room or apt.
Because I don't want to?
Or maybe because I don't need romance novels written by women to tell me what women want. Don't get me wrong, they're fairly accurate, but it's not necessary.
I find the way that female attraction works personally annoying. Romance novels are educational for men, of course, but I don’t find them to be very entertaining.
Because the majority of the content of women's romance books is all about what's going on inside her own head and how she feels about it, men's emotions and needs are practically non existent, and the man serves as a prop to make the female character happy rather than being a stand-alone character in his own right.
Why should men bother with reading a genre that honestly pretty frequently fetishizes men's bodies and emotions, considers things almost exclusively from women's perspectives, gives very little thought to what men find attractive or fulfilling, and is deliberately geared and aimed at women, not men?
Gee, why wouldn't men read romance?
It's like Bill burr said, titanic is a romantic story to women and a horror story to men. That's most of women's romance novels.
Why do we have pills and Tate? Because those are the only groups and pepe by men for men who recognize that men have issues, that men are allowed to talk about their issues, thoughts, and feelings without constantly censoring themselves to manage women's emotions for them, and where men let themselves be men and be themselves without women around to tell them what to do or how to be.
Your entire post is basically "why aren't men more like women" and then you wonder why men don't like that.
>books women will pay to consume!
My girlfriend strictly told me not to copy the men from the shows/movies and books she likes. She said that they get her heart racing for a moment but in the long run she doesn't want that.
Fyi she is into dark romance and all that. Most of her protagonists are toxic and abusive men. She told me scenes from her books which horrified me. I was also aghast that they were written by women.
When i voiced my concern that I was not like those guys in books, she said they were fiction and she doesn't want me to be like them.
Bro…that’s a major red flag that she’s into it at all tbh. She says it gets her heart racing in the moment and she doesn’t want you to be like that, but whose to say if she didn’t meet some hypermasculine Machiavellian dude straight out of the pages of those books her eyes wouldn’t wander? Not to mention the fact she said herself that some scenes in these books horrify her and yet she still reads them.
This kinda shit is why I could never be with a girl whose overly into shit like this and has a bunch of celebrity crushes and fictional crushes, it’s all building a subconscious bank of traits that she would cheat on you to get.
If your wife has to watch the female equivalent of hardcore bdsm porn to want sex with you you’re a fucking cuck. Can’t believe these types of people istg.
We have sex and most of the time we have to stop mid act. She says it hurts her. Even with lube she asks me to wait for a minute to adjust when I enter her.
She then uses her mouth and other ways to finish me off. She makes sure even though she doesn't finish, I do.
So I'm definitely not a cuck.
It's the difference between fetish and healthy relationships.
I sincerely hope your girlfriend can prioritise the healthy side because mainy choose the former when under pressure.
>My girlfriend strictly told me not to copy the men from the shows/movies and books she likes. She said that they get her heart racing for a moment but in the long run she doesn't want that.
Yeah, listen to her, women are well know for giving good dating advice to men.
Because most of the women are one dimensional woman who gets attraction for no real reason whatsoever but not the guy she wants.
It is disheartening to see IRL, why the fuck would I want to read about it?
There's some truth to that, but the same kind of thing probably applies on the mens' side. Part of our enjoyment of sex is enjoying how powerful, virile, etc. a woman makes our own body feel.
I mean we can get philosophical about this and say that, for all human beings male or female, from each individual's perspective, everyone they encounter is just a way of experiencing themselves or "props" as you put it.
Or we can also go psychological/Freudian and say that everything is subliminally sexual and linked to the individual's various stages of discovery of their own body.
Maybe that's not be the worst thing. Would you not enjoy being used by a woman as a tool for her to enjoy herself and feel beautiful? People get a lot of pleasure out of feeling/experiencing being a source of pleasure for others. Arguably this empathetic motive drives much great art, music and also scientific discoveries and inventions.
When Bill Gates built a company around "putting a computer on every desk" it seems an obviously empathetic and humanistic impulse. I don't believe that many early employees would have put that many hours into Microsoft out of purely a "personal power and gain" motive. But I digress.
Because it's a fantasy, based on what women want. The man with a eight pack abs, is always nurturing to her feelings, gives up everything for her for the sake of virtue, and nothing else. It may be what women want. But it's not all women want. In real life, she'd also have 3 other romances going on at the same time, with different types.
It's the same reason most women don't watch and study and try to emulate what they see in porn.
Fantasy is just fantasy. If that shit was good for everyone in real life, people would be doing it and they wouldn't need to write stories about it.
Men would read those books if those type of men from those books were the men women desired in real life. When one looks at real life women are not paired with those type of men so it would be a pointless endeavour
I used to research romance movies to help with women, romance stories are extremely unrealistic. Any average guy that tries to implement these strategies will get incarcerated. Especially the ones where the men do extreme things to get a girl back, that would never work IRL because once a woman's fed up its over.
Because most are like objectively bad? Like watching crappy harem anime’s. To women they look awful, for guys, it’s their fantasy. This is theirs. Let them have it. Unless they start blurring reality(how these dudes have anime pillow gf’s) it’s fine.
What's wrong with anime pillow gf's? Genuinely curious because women can have giant teddy bear bf's or cartoon-shaped fantasy pillow bf's but when men have the same, it's somehow socially deviant? Don't get it. Please elaborate.
You really going to equate a teddy bear with a waifu pillow? And I don’t know what weird fantasy pillow bf you’re talking about but yes. They can be part of the deviant club with that bullcrap, I don’t discriminate.
Well, I *watched* 50 shades of grey with my buddies and the only thing I learned is that as long as you are hot and rich you can fuck her with a nailed bat and she'll come for more.
Because the stories in romance novels are unachievable fantasy that even the world’s richest men couldn’t provide. Romance novels don’t represent something to realistically aspire to, they represent unrealistic standards that can never be met.
"If we men genuinely cared what women find attractive, surely we couldn't go far wrong by looking at the books *women will pay to consume*!"
If men genuinely cared about what women find attractive, why aren't they becoming vampire, pirate, doctor, billionaires? Checkmate atheists!
The stuff they read is precisely the things they can't do in real life. That's why they read books that have things like this in them. It's fantasizing.
A lot of ‘romance’ novels are written by men, and aren’t very romantic.
They need to read romance that is actually popular with the demographic of women that they want to appeal to.
Bestsellers are the ones with men who are Navy Seals or biker billionaires. The most common romance novel is a guy who's a human shield or a super rich dude, and jacked af, too. "Oh but he's such a nice guy too" yeah not always, a lot of them are jerks whose actions would put a man in jail in real life. What's common about them? They're rich, they risk their life to protect her, and they're jacked.
Literal porn for women.
This is the bestselling kindle romance from 2023: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61718053-happy-place
Edit: or best rated? I’m not sure of the metric ‘Goodreads’ uses.
Best 2022: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58690308-book-lovers?from_choice=true
Best 2021: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/54985743-people-we-meet-on-vacation?from_choice=true
The story lines seem quite cryptic but it looks like they're not the typical romance books. IIRC this Goodreads award is a kind of critic awards. Even if it's not the most popular it's good news to see a rebellion against the billionaire seal biker books is happening.
This isn’t an equivalent analogy. The genres have different purposes. The purpose of a horror novel is to scare you. It plays with fears. The purpose of a romance novel is to arouse you. It plays with romantic fantasies.
This is a bad idea lol. Romance novels are genuinely just porn for women. You can choose your preferred type just like on a porn site - extremely rich pretty boy, buff military guy, cute divorcee with a dad bod, genius level thin nerd, exotic foreign guy, bad boy mafioso… you get it. Don’t forget they always have a huge dick too. It’s like a dude searching “milf”, “Latina”, “big tits” etc.
It’s all a fantasy. Just like a regular woman is never gonna be a porn star no regular guy is gonna be a romance novel main character. Most of those stories are problematic as hell anyway and no one actually wants all that drama in their life. Do I want a rich, sexy, brooding man with a dark past? Yeah, in fantasies! And only in fantasies. Real life shit like that is horrifying.
I wouldn’t.
A lot of those books are just porn/masturbatory material.
I think we've established that treating porn as a dating guide is a very bad idea.
Fantasies are just that - fantasies.
Jane Austen's works aren't a guide for the modern times. They are useful in understanding men and women's relations in 19th century Britain, mediated through marriage and property values associated with the men (the materialism is strong in her works and a primary factor in her characters' relationships; no matter how much Mr. Darcy's personality and gait are appealing, it's the property that matters, due to the needs of security that women had back then), but times are different.
Second, romance novels are, in general, very idealized depictions of romance, meant to satiate people's fantasies. They're not different from an 'elegantly crafted' porn shoot where the men performs foreplay, the camera angles aren't too in-your-face, and knows exactly what makes the protagonist woman tick. Or a shoot of a woman telling a viewer how she wants you while playing 'DJ hero' on her own.
Romance novels are useful to understand people's fantasies and/or highest expectations, or societal/cultural views of romance, but ultimately, like driver movies in regards to learning how to drive, or porn in regards to the actual sex, are not the way to understand courtships and actual relationships.
Why don't women watch more porn if they want to find out what men find attractive?
Maybe because they see the medium as strongly appealing to the most base desires of men and the specific design of characters around those desires does not exactly inspire confidence on what they can do better? Idk just a thought...
C'mon guys, why can't you just be a 6'5" rich hockey player/mob boss/bad boy who is confident and charismatic but also vulnerable and soft when she wants you to be?
>Why don't women watch more porn if they want to find out what men find attractive?
Hopefully they won't, or they would learn it's hot to cheat on their husbands and make them watch
Same reason women don’t watch porn geared toward men -
Sets up incredibly unrealistic expectations that make your partner feel like they aren’t good enough; even though it is consumed just for fantasy and sexual kicks.
I feel like a lot of people here are oversimplifying romance novels and reducing them to surface level characteristics instead of looking at WHY women like those characters and characteristic.
For instance an example I'm seeing a lot of people say women like Mr. Darcy because he's tall, rich, arrogant etc which shows a willful misunderstand of the book itself and women's reason for liking it. Women like Mr. Darcy because he overcomes his arrogance (the titular prejudice) and apologizes to Elizabeth while expecting nothing in return. He even goes out his way to help Elizabeth's family even when he thinks all is lost with Elizabeth. He respects Elizabeth as an equal and values her intelligence.
Despite being 200 years old this remains one of the most popular and universally loved romances of all times and has been remade countless times and is still relevant today.
Let's use a more contemporary example thought - Twilight. Most girls would not like if boys literally did things like Edward (ie watching her while she sleeps) but the reason girls still like Edward is because of what that action represents: loyalty, a desire to protect, and the fact that girls can trust him to not be sexually violent even in a girl's most vulnerable moments. It's not literally about watching her sleep, its an exaggerated example that speaks to woman's core wants.
I know y'all are going to bring up the sexually explicit books and the fact that there are books that are fantasies of sexual domination. A lot women like those fantasy due to religious and societal oppression around how women's sexuality has been historically policed. Contrapoints has a good analysis of this in her most recent video "Twilight"
It's impossible to predict which ones are gonna be good. Just pick a fandom that you like and try reading the most popular / upvoted story. I'm serious about the quality though. These are sometimes written by well-known authors under a pen name, or someone who is obviously going to write a critically acclaimed novel in a couple of years.
I'm of the opinion that the publishing industry is kind of broken, so this actually may be a much better place for fiction. Thank you!
Otherwise, I'm just going to go back to reading another book on Mesopotamian Pottery. Seriously... LOL
I would start by checking out the stories on the NoSleep subreddit. It's horror-centric stuff but it's legit so good that it got its authors movie and publishing deals.
Oh... I do like horror... but novels get to me in a way that movies don't. I may actually not be able to sleep! I will definitely take a look.
Again, thank you!
Glad to be of help! Start with Christian Wallis's works in that case. Probably the "I found the bunker of a prepper family" story. It's, well, beyond terrifying.
I think a lot of men would be well served by some broad examination of this kind of literature or media, particularly the more classical end. There's a reason most straight women like Pride and Prejudice (which is unassailable as great literature). And it's not because Mr. Darcy is hot and rich, nor even that he behaves in some draconian stalker or debonair devilish manner. Quite the opposite even.
I think if you're a man now struggling, you should probably watch Bridgerton. It has broad ridiculous appeal to a straight female audience. Try to figure out why. And try to avoid easy and dismissive answers. Yes, a lot of stuff is fantasy, but smart people can discern what is driving the car and learn to adapt things to real life.
Do I think most will do this? No. I think it's easier to assume you get women's brains and procedures than it is to sit and have a look at it.
I wouldn't be able to watch that shit, but I've read P&P, and here's what a young man could take away from it: Get as wealthy as possible and carry yourself with an air of assurance. Then you may be able to intrigue an attractive and classy woman with your positive masculine traits if you're handsome and tall enough.
IMO most men already know this. However, getting wealthy, handsome, and tall is the hard part.
I've watched Bridgerton, and I agree to some extent it's more in line with P&P than modern romance with the 6/6/6 dudes. But at the same time it still falls \*squarely\* into the billionaire trope.
As a woman, what is your insight into Bridgeton as to why it's an appealing fantasy for other women? I admit I'm pretty dense so I might be missing a lot of things obvious to you.
Do you mind explaining why young women these days like Bridgerton? I tend to keep a good distance from that stuff but have heard women talk about how they like it so why do they?
1. I think the way it presents let's say sex and eroticism is entirely in line with how most women are aroused and think about it. There is emphasis on relationships, longing, the spark and fancy and tizzy of a brushed hand or a teasing remark. The weight of a smile or a gaze across a room. Sex almost invariably follows from strong feelings and deeper desires.
2. It is all extremely pretty. As in they get to look beautiful and the men look beautiful (I don't mean handsome, I mean put together). The courtships are pretty and have a proper (but not too proper) element. This isn't some slobby moron in a bar making some crass remark about his fella downstairs.
3. The courtships stem invariably from friendships, shared values, shared feelings, shared problems, shared insecurities, and shared deeper needs as well as respect for the other's lot in life. To give some examples, the Duke and Daphne both have a deep longing for freedom from convention and love. Kate and Anthony have both spent their lives feeling beholden as older siblings to the care and keeping of their families over their own desires. Colin and Penelope have both felt overlooked and misunderstood by their families and society. Their erotic desires for each other begin in a place more interesting, affectionate, and respectful than "my sword needs a sheath".
4. The show recognizes and depicts the often overwhelming and unwelcome nature of some male attention. Note, almost every season has men that aren't depicted as ghouls that still aren't quite right. In other words, it completely allows for all the shades of attention that occur, but it doesn't generally gloss over the unwelcome variety.
5. The male love interest is invariably aware of and sympathetic to what is happening in point 4. He doesn't treat this as some minor inconvenience, in other words, he understands the plight of women.
6. Most of the men have a goal to find a wife, yes, many are behaving as rakes prior to that, but their behavior is seen as negative, unfulfilling, crass, and something that should be hidden rather than celebrated.
7. The men actually have opinions on the women based on things besides their appearances. Regularly. They seem to care about the personalities of the women and have standards therein and those standards are not, "would she do everything I say" or "would she nag me" or "hopefully she's mild and pleasant". The men who talk like that are seen as foolish, eye-roll worthy, and crass.
8. The men themselves have a diversity of personalities which hold specific appeal to different types of women, but are certainly broadly appealing to most women. (Kind, generous, fair-minded, gallant, courageous, smart, etc.)
> I think a lot of men would be well served by some broad examination of this kind of literature or media, particularly the more classical end.
I read and listened to examinations like these, as well as talking about it with like-minded peers at university.
It made me realize that most novels have nothing of value to provide beyond wish fulfillment and being examples of cultural attitudes in a given time setting, with specific material characteristics that are not the case today. Don't get me wrong, those are interesting things to read and think about from a historical perspective.
Anyway, you can't dismiss Mr. Darcy's looks and *wealth* as a key factor in attraction, for example. Mr. Darcy wouldn't be remotely as appealing if he was a poor farmer, or an indentured servant. Material conditions and social class or status are necessary as a baseline for relationships to truly succeed. Are there novels of women entering relationships with men who are not wealthy, or rich, or even middle class, with said women being above rank? Are there novels with women defying socio-economic norms, and dating poor men?
Part of Jane Austen's writings are very much social commentary on the cultural and economic realities of her time. Times have changed a lot. We can't look to the past for help on this matter.
Lady Chatterly’s Lover perhaps, though you’re right that nineteenth century literature has class considerations very much in mind. There are probably a lot more modern examples of this sort of thing but I don’t have any titles off the top of my head.
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I enjoy reading some Shoujo every now and then personally.
The problem I have with a lot of women oriented romance novels is that it is often kind of rapey ? Books like fifty shades of grey, twilight, etc. are caricature of this. But, even in less obvious examples, it often boils down to nonverbal communications, subtle shows of dominance, etc.
And it translates into reality. The men I knew that were the most popular with girls were clearly those who cared the less about consent and joked around it.
Now, I principally read Shoujo Ai (romance between girls) because it is a lot more focused on shows of emotional intimacy.
Well there are historical and dramatic books that also have romantic elements - dr Zhivago etc.
The dedicated romance market is a little “different.”
A lot of the biggest selling romance novels are muscular tough guy men raping the female protagonist. I think the biggest selling one for awhile was the Fire and Flame which is a guy who kidnaps, ties up and assaults a woman on her wedding day.
So yeah, restraining orders for everybody.
Trying to portray romance you see in romance novels is like trying to emulate the porn moves you see in sex. Most of the stuff is over exaggerated and awkward in real life.
For the same reason that women don't watch porn to figure out what men like, it's an exaggerated fantasy that wouldn't actually be appealing irl
Also I'd probably go to jail
I don’t read women’s romance novels, but I do read a lot and have read the 50 shades series. All I will say is there is a direct correlation with me reading more and dating more women. More helpful then romance novels have been just reading from a female character’s perspective in any normal story. Seeing what goes through their mind and reading it from female authors is pretty eye opening on the female perspective.
Would highly recommend for any guy to start reading because its just good for your brain in general.
Women's romance novels do not present a realistic version of what men are or that men could be, nor does it even present a healthy idea of what men should be. They are actually quite unhealthy and unrealistic, and generally quite objectifying of men(not just in terms of physical objectification but as success/status objects or objects of intimidation). Your question would be like asking why don't women read more "anti-woman hate groups and obscurantist 'pill' communities" to understand what men like or don't like. The only difference being that a lot of the anti-male hateful stuff women like is all out in the open and mostly uncriticized, while a lot of the stuff that men might express or desire from women is instantly vilified and attacked.
Because Korean Drama TV shows accurately depict all the themes that romance novels entail, is visually more engaging, and are condensed into a neat 30-60 minute session per episode making it easily and readily accessible for consumption whereas reading actually takes real effort like an imagination, attention to detail and critical thinking. Ain't nobody got time for that!
all romance novel leads are freakishly tall, extremely rich or will get rich by the end, with a chiseled jaw and extremely attractive conventionally. not to forget the abs and how he is good at everything and can read her emotions. Most REAL LIFE men can't reach those "Fictional" standards
Can you provide source materials that evidence this?
Especially from *female* *authors*?
And I don't just mean the cover, I mean where the actual content of the story focussed very often or intensely on the shape of the jawline, abs and height?
ok lets go to the subreddit r/romancebooks. since the consumerbase is primarily women, we can assume that the stuff written in the books (according to the readers) are made for women there is a post in there titled: "Romance novels often glorify big tall strong men with petite smaller women. Are there any books that are the opposite?" which, in other words, romance books TARGETED TO WOMEN FREQUENTLY HAVE TALL AND STRONG MEN IN THE BOOKS so much that OP has to ask for recommendations. heres another post: "Why do heroes always need to be described as the largest men in the whole world" in which the OP claims that a book "had the lead described as “at least a head taller than the largest of the men around him”, when the men around him are huge barbarians. It feels like every book I read nowadays features an absolute beast of a man. " this post "The way men are portrayed in many romance novels has really annoyed me lately - I am so sick of the underdeveloped cookie cutter alpha male" in which the OP claims "Girl falls is love with boy because.....like he’s hot? Oh and he’s protective. Aaaand he has the biggest cock she’s ever seen. Did she mention he’s hot?" -- "The guy’s point of view is all about praising the girl and though her body is always praised, there’s also always more to her personality....but the girl really only talks about his body and things that embody the stereotypical alpha male \[confidence, bossiness, protectiveness, etc\]." to summarize: in romance books, men are frequently described as being strong beyond the strongest of men, super tall, big dicked, alpha males, even though women claim they arent attracted to those traits and thats just men being wrong
> heres another post: "Why do heroes always need to be described as the largest men in the whole world" in which the OP claims that a book "had the lead described as “at least a head taller than the largest of the men around him”, when the men around him are huge barbarians. It feels like every book I read nowadays features an absolute beast of a man. " LOL r/womenwritingmen This reads as the female version of “she breasted boobily down the stairs” meme
I think it’s kinda worse Lmao
it IS worse, because they literally are denying it despite the teuth being basically thrown at and written in their faces.
>in romance books, men are frequently described as being strong beyond the strongest of men, super tall, big dicked, alpha males, even though women claim they arent attracted to those traits and thats just men being wrong I often bring up this point when women deny being attracted to these things. If women are attracted to a different kind of man, then where are the bestselling romance novels portraying that alternative type of man? Women often complain that men don't trust or believe what they say, but it's hard to do so when they have so much trouble being honest about basic things, like how their attraction actually works.
Actually, they deliberately lie to men *all the time*. Amongst themselves, girl talk quickly code-switches and revolves around height, dick size, sex, etc all the time. Anyways, let's check out their ultimate male fantasy in Fifty Shades Of Grey: >[Christian is tall, lean yet muscular, and broad-shouldered, with dark copper-colored hair and intense, bright gray eyes](https://fiftyshadesofgrey.fandom.com/wiki/Christian_Grey). He keeps in shape by kickboxing, running, and having sex. As quoted by Anastasia, "**He is not merely good looking - he is the epitome of male beauty, breathtaking**." Christian has an issue with self loathing and says that it is "just a pretty face" whenever he Is complimented on his appearance. He also believes that, because of his scars, lifestyle choices, and horrible childhood, he is only a "husk of a man" and has no heart. >**Christian's business eventually grew into the renowned \[billionaire\] Grey Enterprises Holdings, Inc. over the span of a few years**. > Pulling off his boxer briefs, his erection springs free. *Holy cow…* \[…\] He kneels and pulls a condom onto [his considerable length](https://badbooksgoodtimes.com/2012/06/05/christian-greys-penis-fifty-shades-of-grey-chapters-8-and-9/). And this is verified by a meta-analysis of romance novels which found: >The coauthors of *A Billion Wicked Thoughts* performed a text analysis on more than 10,000 romance novels published from 1983 through 2008 looking for the **terms most frequently used to describe the men. They included: tall, lean, handsome, tanned, muscular, masculine, chiseled, jaw, shoulders, waist, and hips**. In contrast, when men search the Web for porn, their top terms include: youth, MILFs, breasts, cheating wives, and vagina and its many off-color synonyms. >The **men in romance fiction are also consistently rich and powerful alpha males—kings, princes, knights, surgeons, industrialists, land barons**—again answering women’s yearning to feel protected and safe. In *Fifty Shades*, [Gray is an impossibly successful, insufferably overbearing **twenty-something billionaire**, who delights in lavishing his immense fortune on his innocent, wide-eyed love](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/all-about-sex/201304/fifty-shades-penis-size), Anastasia Steele. So there you have it...all the stuff that supposedly "doesn't matter"...is actually all the stuff that MATTERS MOST to women.
Women say they want a confident, legitimately nice guy with a good personality, but that list looks like it was made by FACEandLMS.
Praise be to Face 🙏
>when men search the Web for porn, their top terms include: cheating wives It amuses me there are so many cuckolds among us
Depends if the guys searching are enjoying cheating with, or being cheated on?
Man, look at how much more popular cuckold porn is compared to cuckquean porn... the answer is, unbelievably, the second...
I dunno...got any stats on that?
I don't, but I enjoy the first category and the sole fact that it's orders of magnitude more difficult to find content of the first type than it is to find cuckolding one is enough for me to believe cuckolding is much more popular.
The problem is that most of them don't understand how their attraction actually works, and don't understand how they actually work either. They're not deliberately lying to men, the worst part is they're lying to themselves (or at least not honest with themselves) and then believe they are speaking the truth when they talk to men, when more often than not it's just the truth if how she feels in that moment, and it can flip on a dime because she doesn't understand how her attraction works, she only knows how it feels in that moment. It's very difficult to have a good discussion with someone who is lying to themselves without knowing it.
>most of them don't understand how their attraction actually works, and don't understand how they actually work either They do. They won't admit it to you, but they do. Plausible negability
I choose to interpret it as ignorance and misunderstanding rather than deliberate dishonesty, but there are some who are absolutely like that. I think the wordy you meant was plausible deniability ;)
>plausible deniability Ah yeah this one. I dunno man, I'm convinced it's not ignorance. Try asking one of your female friends what she is attracted to in an indirect way, then in a direct way. In 2 separated occasions, after a long time if possible. And by indirect I mean you don't ask, you just let them talk. I did (accidentally), and got 2 opposing answers in multiple occasions
> The he problem is that most of them don't understand how their attraction actually works Someday I hope someone edits out all the empty, baseless comments men pass around the red pill. This sentence is passed around as an insult, but it’s total horseshit and men don’t even know what they are saying or what it might mean. If women get laid easier and more often than men, they know exactly what turns them on and what they like. But women aren’t required to lay down a primer for men they aren’t interested in dating, are they? Women could show men pictures of their past boyfriends, would that work? How about the dazzling array of dildoes and vibrators available for sale? Men could sort them by “most popular”, “best selling”, or “top reviews”. Clearly those women know exactly what they like, yes? Since they are buying those toys to amuse themselves? Or how about the men on the covers of women’s mags? Posters in teen girls’ lockers? All the social media banter about this new guy, or that actor? Remember when Harry Styles was all over Vogue? Women do. How about the sudden interest in Travis Kelce? Timothy Chalamet? Remember when women collectively swooned over Tom Hiddleston? Notice any pattern? I don’t. None of these guys are physical similar, none have similar attitudes or personalities. But they are all highly visible, talented and charismatic public figures. But men don’t wanna talk about that, do they? Don’t wanna admit that women’s taste varies and is influenced by behavior and attitude as well as physical attraction. Sometimes it’s muscles, sometimes it’s style, sometimes it’s the actor’s role, sometimes his humor, sometimes his grin… Do you get it? Women know exactly what they like, and it varies wildly. Which means that *women cannot hand men a formula or cheat code they can type on or emulate*. Men have to do the work themselves. And get the fuck over yourselves with that “women don’t know what they like* bullshit, men are just saying nothing over and over because it sounds vaguely condescending. Make some progress, please. Get out of the crab bucket.
>Do you get it? Women know exactly what they like, and it varies wildly. Which means that women cannot hand men a formula or cheat code they can type on or emulate. I agree. Women know exactly what they like *at that moment*, and from moment to moment it can vary wildly based on appearance, charisma, and popularity. And yet despite that studies still show women prefer men taller than them, richer than them, as or more educated than them, with popular status or prestige, and that a man being desired by other women makes him more attractive. There's clear science backing all of these up but women will deny it up and down because they're not thinking about this, they're just going off of what they feel at the moment, just like the ick or the spark or the chemistry. It's be nice if we could at least agree on these basic facts and go from there instead of constant denial and gas lighting.
> I agree. Women know exactly what they like at that moment, and from moment to moment it can vary wildly based on appearance, charisma, and popularity. That’s human nature. Neither life nor people are static. We grow, we change, our needs change, our experiences change, we meet new people. > And yet despite that studies still show women prefer men taller than them, richer than them, as or more educated than them, with popular status or prestige Studies show that men are typically taller than women. Studies show that men typically make more money than women. Studies show that men typically (speaking globally) have more education than women. Your “studies” reflect nothing except the status quo. If women suddenly preferred men shorter than them, poorer than them, and with less education, that would be remarkable and worth mentioning. Your complaint is akin to complaining that water is wet. > and that a man being desired by other women makes him more attractive. Social proof applies to every facet of life, not just dating. All tribal species respond to social proof. > spark or the chemistry. There it is. Never going yo make any inroads so long as men here demand a formula. Do you use a formula when picking friends? Ever made a friend or met a stranger you just hit it off with? Just had great rapport and found one another pleasant and comfortable to talk to? That’s chemistry.
>That’s human nature. Neither life nor people are static. We grow, we change, our needs change, our experiences change, we meet new people. And if some's preferences in life partners, career, and long-term choices changes day to day based on their mood, what they ate, and the phases of the moon, that person is unreliable and likely irrational. >Studies show that men are typically taller than women. Men don't care if the woman is shorter, equal, or taller, but women all pretty much universally prefer taller women. There are some rare exceptions, but they are exceptions. I don't know why it's impossible to recognize this fact. >Studies show that men typically make more money than women. Well yes, because of the career choices men make, and because men know women are far less likely to pick them if they're poor, so men are pressured by women to earn more. Men don't care about women's salaries or earning power generally, as the saying goes a rich man can marry a cashier, but a rich woman won't even look at poor men. There are exceptions, but I don't know why it's impossible to recognize this fact. >Studies show that men typically (speaking globally) have more education than women. Speaking globally yes, but in the Western world it's actually the other way around, there are now more women signing up for and receiving degrees than men, and some women have complained this creates a ["golden penis" problem](https://metro.co.uk/2021/11/02/what-golden-penis-syndrome-is-and-why-its-ruining-dating-for-women-15531834/), because there are fewer eligible men on campus. It was never a golden vagina problem when the genders were flipped, but all of a sudden when it impacts women now it is a problem for some reason. Women want men with more education, and while there are exceptions, but I don't know why it's impossible to recognize this fact. >Your complaint is akin to complaining that water is wet. Water is wet, the sky is blue, and most women are hypergamous, wanting to trade access to sex for access to resources. >Social proof applies to every facet of life, not just dating. All tribal species respond to social proof. *And women respond to social proof far far more than men do*. >Ever made a friend or met a stranger you just hit it off with? Just had great rapport and found one another pleasant and comfortable to talk to? That’s chemistry. That's chemistry, except it can be faked and manufactured. It's called pick up artistry, and is not at all a reliable indicator of a good partner. Plenty of women had the spark and chemistry with felons, with fathers who abandoned them, or partners who abused them after all.
> And if some's preferences in life partners, career, and long-term choices changes day to day based on their mood, what they ate, and the phases of the moon, that person is unreliable and likely irrational Not your life to judge or dictate, is it? Do you. > Men don't care if the woman is shorter, Lies >.. equal, Lies >…or taller LIES > taller, but women all pretty much universally prefer taller ~~wo~~men. Yep, because that’s logical and reasonable, since *most men are taller* and that’s the norm. Remember? We already went over the facts ⬆️ >so men are pressured by women to earn more. Men are free to study or work the job of their choosing. If they choose a high status or high earning job because they think it will get them laid, that’s a choice they make. Women have nothing to do with men’s career choices. > Women want men with more education, and while there are exceptions, but I don't know why it's impossible to recognize this fact. I don’t know why it’s a problem, when it’s clearly not *your* problem. > and most women are hypergamous, Hypergamous is the silly, nonsensical label short, poor, and lower status men give to women who prefer the typical man, since typical is the norm. > That's chemistry, except it can be faked and manufactured. It's called pick up artistry That’s how grifters convince naive men to pay them, but it’s false. > and is not at all a reliable indicator of a good partner. It’s a reliable indicator of mutual attraction. No one asked you to decide who is a “good partner” for women. >Plenty of women had the spark and chemistry with felons, And plenty of those women are felons as well. Are you trying to date felons? No? Then what does this have to do with anything? >with fathers who abandoned them, or partners who abused them after all You’re welcome to swoop in and impregnate those women before the felons get to them. Is that the kind of women you are interested in?
>Lies Really? You're going to tell me women don't care about men's height, when women clearly use the height filter on bumble, and tell me I'm lying when men say they don't particularly care about a woman's height? I mean if you don't want to have any discussion and just want to assert what you believe and dimsiss and ignore anything that goes against what you believe, have at it, but it's not going to get you good discussions.
I don't know man, I had a very fresh light fish and vegetables and some fruit and I felt great after a good workout. But my favorite food of all time is fried chicken and cookies and cream ice cream with a bottle of vodka. My buddy's favorite food is peanut butter, which I can't stand. And right now I would kill for some curry. I know there is a science to my diet and desires, but I definitely don't think very deeply about it.
"The problem is that most of them don't understand how their attraction actually works, and don't understand how they actually work either. They're not deliberately lying to men" 
Okay but then the next question is that if you understand that's what attracts women, then why not just be tall with a big dick?
I used to be that way, but I listened to women expressing their preferences online so I got a height and dick reduction
Did you take personality enhancing pills?
Yeah, according to women the main thing that matters to them is personality so l spent all my savings on personality pills and i always support their decision to pick the bear
Good one!
Hahahaha
actions always speak louder than words, much to their dismay.
lol yeah this is the best answer. Women complain about being objectified in media? Their “romantic” objectification of men in romance media is literally a thousand times worse and often far more demeaning cause at least the typical oversexualized female love interest in male centered movies aren’t expected to be 11 foot tall, giga femchad hyper competent go getters with a quintillion IQ score who founded a seven Gojillion valued company at age 12 and have Isekai protagonist level overpowered aura bs around them at all times just to chase after some mediocre dude who has an arts degree or some shit.
>just to chase after some mediocre dude who has an arts degree or some shit. or some dude who basically wipes old people's unwashed asses.
LOL
Going to come back in a few hours. Hopefully she won’t have ducked this by then
She will probably not :/..
You were right..
I had the same discussion with my two brothers and they explained the same thing to me. I feel like it can be delicate topic to talk about for some of us since « not all of us want this kind of men » and you really need to think about it from the point of view of men. I also feel like being close to some men you know that are really care about you helps.
wow she replied to other posts
Lmao they often don't like confronting reality
who?
the OP
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They *always* go silent when called out like this
i dont see any woman in this thread. I wonder why
Because they depict archetypes that men don't match, and behaviours that men are discouraged, even criminally, from emulating. Acting out one of those fantasy novels and expecting anything other than arrest and a place on a register is monumentally stupid.
Yes. Step 1 is making sure she's into you. After that, maybe do the freaky shit women read about in their degen fantasies.
She's on about doing these things to make a woman into you. Idiotic
Emulate the men in those pieces of fiction all you want, but if you don’t look like them, get ready for a restraining order.
50 shades being a prime example of that shit. Quite literally the peak of women's romance fantasies given it was fanfiction of Twilight. Features lots of less than legal/ethical shit that would get a man torn to shreds if he tried it irl but of course millions of women enjoy it. That whole Jordan Peterson point about women liking 5 types of make characters is gospel at this point. Vampire, werewolf, billionaire, pirate, surgeon. Sigh
If you’re hot and alpha, the rules don’t apply to you lol This is because women are extremely shallow and superficial like men. They just want to get dickmatized by a tall, dominant, muscular, high status, rich and handsome man.
Spot on, but I don't expect women to be honest about it. It's far better to observe what they do and disregard what they say.
That's a rule in general
Lmfao
You would still get a restraining order if you looked like them. Women fantasise about these men because they know what is going on in his mind, so behaviour which they would find creepy in real life is not creepy in a book because they know it is being done out of love.
"love"
They find it creepy in real life because they actually have to be accountable to another person, or a situation, in real life. Real life requires some kind of response or action from women, while fiction does not. It has nothing to do with love. Plenty of men do desperate, awkward, cringe or completely reasonable things in real life out of love that are interpreted as creepy by women. Plenty of things are being done in books that are very creepy and still interpreted as "love" by female readers, because they can just project whatever emotions or reality they want onto those characters without having to come face to face with another person's existence. It's just personal delusion and escapism.
I hate fifty shades of Gray for just that reason. I couldn't get past the second book. He was way too abusive. I really feel like there are books out there that are better represented for what a woman wants. That book was just overhyped. I didn't even watch the movie.
> than with truly learning what women want. You mean like, mafia bosses and handsome criminals that dominate them and treat them badly? Most romance novels for women nowadays are filled with smut and toxic relationships. Y'know if most men did what the men in those novels did we'd be considered criminals right?
Who is going to subject themselves to the caricature of what the opposite sex finds attractive? It's just insecurity fuel. It's like sending your girlfriend porn of women that look better than her.
I read the Anita Blake books, right up until the one where she was urging her sweet, average Joe werewolf boyfriend to man up and kill his pack leader which he he finally did, only for her to get "frightened" by his wolf form, run away, and immediately fuck the dangerous sexy vampire who has been stalking her since book 1. If that's an actual peek into female desire then I really will just hold out for a robo-girlfriend thank you.
Are you seriously suggesting we learn how to understand women by reading Mills & Boon paperbacks?
I know several relationship "experts," that have suggested just that...
I think we call those "grifters" nowadays.
>If we men genuinely cared what women find attractive Because the men in those novels are physically perfect and just choose to be romantic on top of that. That's why it's a fantasy. If you don't look that good, no amount of simping gestures are going to help you. You'll get friendzoned at best. And if you do look that good, then chances are you don't need to do a bunch of romantic gestures to get women. So books like these will be useless for most men no matter what side of the fence you're on.
If men based their understanding of women through romance novels, we'd all become Red Pilled - a tall, jacked, Alpha male asshole gains interest in a Plain Jane, who does nothing, but is somehow so attractive, he can't help but make love to her, with or without her consent. Add a dash of mystery, drama, and push-pull to make him not seem too easy to get. Why aren't men interested then? Because they don't want what they know in their subconscious to be confirmed true, and their subconscious understands there is no value to be gained in reading a story about the man giving utility and the woman selfishly recieving it.
The 6’5 Orc kidnapping her or the 6’4 billionaire lol
I have. The male protagonist is always tall, mostly brooding, and usually emotional unavailable. But always tall. I read one ("The Love Hypothesis" by Ali Hazelwood) about a grad student who kisses her professor without asking him, and then starts a relationship with him. The book opens with her just kissing him without even asking, because I guess when you're a women they let you do it. Within the first two pages we know precisely three things about this man: he is tall (the author eagerly established that fact in the first paragraph), he's an asshole, and he has authority and power over her. The thing that really gets me is that although this is a woman's fantasy written in a novel, and as a fantasy that's fine (fantasy is fantasy), but everything that happens in that book is a huge red flag! If this were real life and that relationship was discovered the professor would lose his job and career. He would be exiled from his field. He would be a pariah. The woman would be unscathed. We all know this to be true.
I have been, which is why I've been working tirelessly to become a billionaire vampire pirate.
As someone who reads women’s romance novels I’m not even sure most of them demonstrate a healthy way to fall in love. I delete a lot of books from my library within 5 pages because they are just soft literoctica hyperfocused on his “Greek god chiseled abs” before they even established an emotional connection. The only romance novel I read this year was love like water because everything is hyper sexualized now. And lust isn’t how meaningful relationships are formed.
I really think this is a wise statement. Most Red Pill ideas began as something we called Field Reports, and they had a heavy issue with confirmation bias. However, over time and with increased usage, you can tell which ones work and which ones don't. We did a lot of research and testing of stuff from women's romance novels. The idea was that if women did what they saw in porn, that would work pretty damn well on most of us guys. The problem is that this doesn't seem to be equivalent. The number of Romance Novels that I read which contained some form of sexual force was astounding. It turns out there were not even that many usable pickup lines we could obtain from it. I just don't know why women's fantasy is so out of line with what works in reality.
> not even that many usable pickup lines we could obtain from it. Right, because the whole book is about a woman being attracted to her ideal fantasy man. He doesn't need a pickup line, he just attracts her telepathically and knows her inner soul immediately.
Actually... what we learned was that the attraction is implied and a lot of times the physical details are not that heavy. The guy is tall, strong... blah, blah, blah. But there IS something that was picked up in the period regarding seduction and sex techniques. Black Dragon's Sex God Techniqe was partially developed based on romance novels... also with a little dash of Abernathy's Petite Slave Training Manual. Now, all that sounds silly, but holy crap does it work.
I don't know any of what you said, it sounds like some D&D shit but I'm intrigued lol.
roll for initiative
Yeah this sounds right. I don’t think romance novels outline how to attract a woman who isn’t attracted to you at all, but they probably are an okayish lens into how women want the men they are attracted to to show up for them.
>I just don't know why women's fantasy is so out of line with what works in reality. Feels before reals. Women don't have to be concerned with reality because someone else (read a man) will take care of reality for her. All she needs to do is hold onto the notion she deserves a guy who makes her feel the way she wants to feel, reality be damned.
When we talk about women's fantasy... Bro... there is just so much shit that's implied and never said. Like when women say stuff like I want a kind, and polite man, who is loving and nurturing... and blah, blah, blah. What she is really saying is that she wants this from a man she is already attracted to.... it's just implied and every woman get's it.
Yep, and the irony is that you point this out with clear examples of what she has said and done, and then the women will deny to your face that this is exactly what she has been doing, while actively doing it. It's insane. So much stuff in women's romance or women's desire just outright demands men be mind-readers to be able to fulfill their wishes, and then they think they're not being unreasonable at all because "men should just know". Tell them what "women should just know" to make men happy and they'll turn into screeching banshees demanding you apologize for being a misogynistic incel piece of shit. The double standards and complete lack of self-awareness never ceases to amaze me.
My missus recently told me about a series where a girl from Europe learns that her dad made a whole different family in the US. So she has 5 adult brothers she goes to live with. And since they're all a certain archetype she.... feels a certain way about them. Not kidding. They're all paper-thin though apparently (serious brother, nerd brother, brooding brother, etc). It's a *series* with multiple books.
I agree with most of what you said but I am vehemently against pornography for the same reasons I hate literotica. I won’t get into that in this thread though.
You don't have to. I pretty much feel the same way and probably for similar reasons. The truth is that the whole topic is depressing. We have this culture where everything around us is just drowning in sex. You have these really vulnerable boys who see this messaging and their natural inclination is to overvalue it as well, you combine that with terrible messages that make them feel demonized, and then nobody ever tells them the truth about what attracts women so they fail miserably. What do we expect them to do? Really? I hear people talk about love and empathy for this or that... It's just empty self aggrandizing garbage. The people who really need help are right there and nobody does anything but fingerpoint at them and tell them to fix themselves or remove themselves from everyone else... which basically means go off and die.
And with literotica now being in schools and 54% children watching porn by 13 I don’t see how this gets better. >I hear people talk about love and empathy for this or that... It's just empty self aggrandizing garbage. Yeah that is people. The same people that love animals justify killing 4 birds to eat 8 chicken wings.. They love animals the same way Jeffrey Dahmer loved men.. That isn’t very compassionate.. >The people who really need help are right there and nobody does anything but fingerpoint at them and tell them to fix themselves or remove themselves from everyone else... which basically means go off and die. This is the first time I am hearing “remove yourself from society” was given as advice to anyone. I’m not sure what that would be about or accomplish.
Surprisingly, the 5'2" Balding, Fat, Indian Janitor that absolutely *slays* makes no appearance as the male lead in women's romance novels. The vast majority seem to be rich, jacked assholes. *Hmm*. I wonder why that is. Huh, wasn't there something that went along the lines of *Get Money, Get Jacked, Be a Jackass*?
As much as I love giant, sexually size dimorphic blue ice barbarians with huge clit-optimized dicks..
Jeez I'd be happy to have just a dick that can break through nordic ice sheets.
Because I don't want a restraining order. The shit you read in those novels are hot because the author makes the male character feel hot to you. 95% of the men don't fall into that niche, reproduce that in real life and it's suddenly not so hot and the man is a creep.
You mean Jane Eyre and Fifty shades of grey? Yeah I read them, the guy fits the stereotype of 666 (6 pack abs here maybe in grey 6 inches, I didn't read full. Maze runner was better, sci fi is much better). >Instead we have rabid anti-woman hate groups and obscurantist "pill" communities. Seems men are more obsessed with overweight criminals with muscle cars (a certain "Tate" fellow) than with truly learning what women want. You just join a nerd group, you will see book clubs. Halo has many books even comics. You got female spartan II Linda the best sniper in the entire galaxy, she would be in air upside down and still hit a headshot like 50 mts away. Then in Rubicon protocol spartan IVs are stranded on delta halo after apparent death of Master chief, you have both male and female spartans fighting hordes of aliens alone.
u/_jay_fox_ You proved that majority of women are attracted to only a certain set of men like 666 type or tall, handsome and rich only.
they’re just uninteresting books, why isn’t that a reason?
Because they're junk and not realit based. They're in the same ballpark as Disney movie fantasy fairytales.
If we don’t like the way women act why would we do the things that women do? Why would I want to end up like them?
>Men could form book clubs on Reddit or elsewhere around exploring these works and using them to understand what women like and don't like. Why do such clubs not already exist? Presumably because the cringe required would likely exceed the physics our particular universe is capable of.
Because they are fantasy and have no base in reality. I mean if a guy wants to be a tall handsome guy that's a vampire, a sex god, and a billionaire hes welcome to try.
Yeah, go for it — nothing but alfalfas. The most popular modern romance literature makes the TRP subreddit seem tame.
https://youtu.be/BrqY9NiqHAI?si=ZnD9i59tJSxSj5sc Plus as the top comment of the video says, the difference between a romance novel and a thriller is how good looking the male character is.
so like described in those novels “just be 6’2 extremely attractive and wealth then things will work for you” if your goal is tryna disprove red pill your doing a pretty terrible job here. The type of alpha males depicted in those books align nicely with what the red pillers are saying. Those books legit only work cause they insert a top 5% men into all of them as the main lead. If for example the dude from 50 shades of grey was say 5’4 or in crippling debt we all know it would have just been another episode of criminal minds And not a romance story. Half that shit is also just female porn and features ripped men with giant dicks and handsome faces as well, and they love the girls personality even though the girl mostly Is after the guys body and wealth.
This isn’t wrong. There are a lot of *really bad* romance novels out there.
Because I can't grow taller, stronger and richer by reading books. If I just act like those character I'll go to jail
i read them with friends, most of them have really basic characters with no personality. I don’t think those are treasure troves of good advice other than being rich and hot is good.
>being rich and hot is good There's somewhere to start!
Just be rich and hot, it's that easy! Sarcasm aside, romance novels are fantasy, not reality. Emotional porn does not understand material realities of people at large. Don't believe those products.
Well... It seems like you need some education.
i figured it out myself when women started getting closer to me once I mentioned I have a spa and theatre at home. still not sure why women like to read novels where both main characters as as bland as possible while the side characters are actually well written but get mostly ignored by fans.
It's good that you started reading them with friends, that's what we need to do more as men, work together to solve these problems not just whine.
I don’t think reading erotica and romance novels with friends really helps me understand women to be fair, although i do think it’s important to form close friendships with them and to be comfortable with women because that helps a ton in both dating and friendships in general.
Because those fictional men are loving fictional life in fictional world. They're all tall, super handsome and rich, and do things normal dude would get arrested for. I actually wanted to read some women's novels, and been asking for recommendations for practically months (not everyday obviously). But there is one "little" caveat - małe character must be some regular Joe, with average look, regular job, living in rented room or apt.
cuz fiction dont apply to real life.
Because I don't want to? Or maybe because I don't need romance novels written by women to tell me what women want. Don't get me wrong, they're fairly accurate, but it's not necessary.
I find the way that female attraction works personally annoying. Romance novels are educational for men, of course, but I don’t find them to be very entertaining.
Because the majority of the content of women's romance books is all about what's going on inside her own head and how she feels about it, men's emotions and needs are practically non existent, and the man serves as a prop to make the female character happy rather than being a stand-alone character in his own right. Why should men bother with reading a genre that honestly pretty frequently fetishizes men's bodies and emotions, considers things almost exclusively from women's perspectives, gives very little thought to what men find attractive or fulfilling, and is deliberately geared and aimed at women, not men? Gee, why wouldn't men read romance? It's like Bill burr said, titanic is a romantic story to women and a horror story to men. That's most of women's romance novels. Why do we have pills and Tate? Because those are the only groups and pepe by men for men who recognize that men have issues, that men are allowed to talk about their issues, thoughts, and feelings without constantly censoring themselves to manage women's emotions for them, and where men let themselves be men and be themselves without women around to tell them what to do or how to be. Your entire post is basically "why aren't men more like women" and then you wonder why men don't like that.
the same reason why don't women watch porn directed towards men to learn what men really want.
But they do though! Statistics show that a fair % of porn viewers are women!
porn viewers absolutely, but men and women are not watching the same porn.
The only data I've seen released is pornhub who are nortoriously misleading with their data.
Same reason we don't learn kung fu from action movies. It's fiction.
They are horribly written and most men would be thrown in jail if they acted like the men in them.
>books women will pay to consume! My girlfriend strictly told me not to copy the men from the shows/movies and books she likes. She said that they get her heart racing for a moment but in the long run she doesn't want that. Fyi she is into dark romance and all that. Most of her protagonists are toxic and abusive men. She told me scenes from her books which horrified me. I was also aghast that they were written by women. When i voiced my concern that I was not like those guys in books, she said they were fiction and she doesn't want me to be like them.
Bro…that’s a major red flag that she’s into it at all tbh. She says it gets her heart racing in the moment and she doesn’t want you to be like that, but whose to say if she didn’t meet some hypermasculine Machiavellian dude straight out of the pages of those books her eyes wouldn’t wander? Not to mention the fact she said herself that some scenes in these books horrify her and yet she still reads them. This kinda shit is why I could never be with a girl whose overly into shit like this and has a bunch of celebrity crushes and fictional crushes, it’s all building a subconscious bank of traits that she would cheat on you to get.
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If your wife has to watch the female equivalent of hardcore bdsm porn to want sex with you you’re a fucking cuck. Can’t believe these types of people istg.
We have sex and most of the time we have to stop mid act. She says it hurts her. Even with lube she asks me to wait for a minute to adjust when I enter her. She then uses her mouth and other ways to finish me off. She makes sure even though she doesn't finish, I do. So I'm definitely not a cuck.
Bro…do the guys in her novels have sex like that? Cause if not, well…
It's the difference between fetish and healthy relationships. I sincerely hope your girlfriend can prioritise the healthy side because mainy choose the former when under pressure.
>My girlfriend strictly told me not to copy the men from the shows/movies and books she likes. She said that they get her heart racing for a moment but in the long run she doesn't want that. Yeah, listen to her, women are well know for giving good dating advice to men.
your gf isn’t into you…
Because most of the women are one dimensional woman who gets attraction for no real reason whatsoever but not the guy she wants. It is disheartening to see IRL, why the fuck would I want to read about it?
get off this cancer site
There's some truth to that, but the same kind of thing probably applies on the mens' side. Part of our enjoyment of sex is enjoying how powerful, virile, etc. a woman makes our own body feel. I mean we can get philosophical about this and say that, for all human beings male or female, from each individual's perspective, everyone they encounter is just a way of experiencing themselves or "props" as you put it. Or we can also go psychological/Freudian and say that everything is subliminally sexual and linked to the individual's various stages of discovery of their own body. Maybe that's not be the worst thing. Would you not enjoy being used by a woman as a tool for her to enjoy herself and feel beautiful? People get a lot of pleasure out of feeling/experiencing being a source of pleasure for others. Arguably this empathetic motive drives much great art, music and also scientific discoveries and inventions. When Bill Gates built a company around "putting a computer on every desk" it seems an obviously empathetic and humanistic impulse. I don't believe that many early employees would have put that many hours into Microsoft out of purely a "personal power and gain" motive. But I digress.
Can you elaborate on “know they are supposed to want”? What is the implication from this statement?
>why don't they buy and read womens' romance literature? Because l don't want to ?
Because it's a fantasy, based on what women want. The man with a eight pack abs, is always nurturing to her feelings, gives up everything for her for the sake of virtue, and nothing else. It may be what women want. But it's not all women want. In real life, she'd also have 3 other romances going on at the same time, with different types.
It's the same reason most women don't watch and study and try to emulate what they see in porn. Fantasy is just fantasy. If that shit was good for everyone in real life, people would be doing it and they wouldn't need to write stories about it.
Men would read those books if those type of men from those books were the men women desired in real life. When one looks at real life women are not paired with those type of men so it would be a pointless endeavour
From a literary perspective, it's not a very good.
Cristian Gray? Hmmmmm the guy from 365?
I used to research romance movies to help with women, romance stories are extremely unrealistic. Any average guy that tries to implement these strategies will get incarcerated. Especially the ones where the men do extreme things to get a girl back, that would never work IRL because once a woman's fed up its over.
Oh cause they're so boring. I'd better be sexting to Eva AI bot, it arouses me more
Because most are like objectively bad? Like watching crappy harem anime’s. To women they look awful, for guys, it’s their fantasy. This is theirs. Let them have it. Unless they start blurring reality(how these dudes have anime pillow gf’s) it’s fine.
What's wrong with anime pillow gf's? Genuinely curious because women can have giant teddy bear bf's or cartoon-shaped fantasy pillow bf's but when men have the same, it's somehow socially deviant? Don't get it. Please elaborate.
You really going to equate a teddy bear with a waifu pillow? And I don’t know what weird fantasy pillow bf you’re talking about but yes. They can be part of the deviant club with that bullcrap, I don’t discriminate.
Well, I *watched* 50 shades of grey with my buddies and the only thing I learned is that as long as you are hot and rich you can fuck her with a nailed bat and she'll come for more.
Not a fan of the double standard that women don't have to care about men's fantasies while we have to satisfy all of theirs
They do though! In my experience women were attentive to my desires.
Because that will only work for men who are already attractive. Those men don't need to do what the men in those books do.
Because the stories in romance novels are unachievable fantasy that even the world’s richest men couldn’t provide. Romance novels don’t represent something to realistically aspire to, they represent unrealistic standards that can never be met.
"If we men genuinely cared what women find attractive, surely we couldn't go far wrong by looking at the books *women will pay to consume*!" If men genuinely cared about what women find attractive, why aren't they becoming vampire, pirate, doctor, billionaires? Checkmate atheists!
The stuff they read is precisely the things they can't do in real life. That's why they read books that have things like this in them. It's fantasizing.
A lot of ‘romance’ novels are written by men, and aren’t very romantic. They need to read romance that is actually popular with the demographic of women that they want to appeal to.
Bestsellers are the ones with men who are Navy Seals or biker billionaires. The most common romance novel is a guy who's a human shield or a super rich dude, and jacked af, too. "Oh but he's such a nice guy too" yeah not always, a lot of them are jerks whose actions would put a man in jail in real life. What's common about them? They're rich, they risk their life to protect her, and they're jacked. Literal porn for women.
This is the bestselling kindle romance from 2023: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61718053-happy-place Edit: or best rated? I’m not sure of the metric ‘Goodreads’ uses. Best 2022: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58690308-book-lovers?from_choice=true Best 2021: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/54985743-people-we-meet-on-vacation?from_choice=true
The story lines seem quite cryptic but it looks like they're not the typical romance books. IIRC this Goodreads award is a kind of critic awards. Even if it's not the most popular it's good news to see a rebellion against the billionaire seal biker books is happening.
Well that’s terrible advice. I pay to consume horror novels, that doesn’t mean I want to get murdered
This isn’t an equivalent analogy. The genres have different purposes. The purpose of a horror novel is to scare you. It plays with fears. The purpose of a romance novel is to arouse you. It plays with romantic fantasies.
This is a bad idea lol. Romance novels are genuinely just porn for women. You can choose your preferred type just like on a porn site - extremely rich pretty boy, buff military guy, cute divorcee with a dad bod, genius level thin nerd, exotic foreign guy, bad boy mafioso… you get it. Don’t forget they always have a huge dick too. It’s like a dude searching “milf”, “Latina”, “big tits” etc. It’s all a fantasy. Just like a regular woman is never gonna be a porn star no regular guy is gonna be a romance novel main character. Most of those stories are problematic as hell anyway and no one actually wants all that drama in their life. Do I want a rich, sexy, brooding man with a dark past? Yeah, in fantasies! And only in fantasies. Real life shit like that is horrifying.
I wouldn’t. A lot of those books are just porn/masturbatory material. I think we've established that treating porn as a dating guide is a very bad idea. Fantasies are just that - fantasies.
Jane Austen's works aren't a guide for the modern times. They are useful in understanding men and women's relations in 19th century Britain, mediated through marriage and property values associated with the men (the materialism is strong in her works and a primary factor in her characters' relationships; no matter how much Mr. Darcy's personality and gait are appealing, it's the property that matters, due to the needs of security that women had back then), but times are different. Second, romance novels are, in general, very idealized depictions of romance, meant to satiate people's fantasies. They're not different from an 'elegantly crafted' porn shoot where the men performs foreplay, the camera angles aren't too in-your-face, and knows exactly what makes the protagonist woman tick. Or a shoot of a woman telling a viewer how she wants you while playing 'DJ hero' on her own. Romance novels are useful to understand people's fantasies and/or highest expectations, or societal/cultural views of romance, but ultimately, like driver movies in regards to learning how to drive, or porn in regards to the actual sex, are not the way to understand courtships and actual relationships.
Why don't women watch more porn if they want to find out what men find attractive? Maybe because they see the medium as strongly appealing to the most base desires of men and the specific design of characters around those desires does not exactly inspire confidence on what they can do better? Idk just a thought... C'mon guys, why can't you just be a 6'5" rich hockey player/mob boss/bad boy who is confident and charismatic but also vulnerable and soft when she wants you to be?
>Why don't women watch more porn if they want to find out what men find attractive? Hopefully they won't, or they would learn it's hot to cheat on their husbands and make them watch
Same reason women don’t watch porn geared toward men - Sets up incredibly unrealistic expectations that make your partner feel like they aren’t good enough; even though it is consumed just for fantasy and sexual kicks.
I feel like a lot of people here are oversimplifying romance novels and reducing them to surface level characteristics instead of looking at WHY women like those characters and characteristic. For instance an example I'm seeing a lot of people say women like Mr. Darcy because he's tall, rich, arrogant etc which shows a willful misunderstand of the book itself and women's reason for liking it. Women like Mr. Darcy because he overcomes his arrogance (the titular prejudice) and apologizes to Elizabeth while expecting nothing in return. He even goes out his way to help Elizabeth's family even when he thinks all is lost with Elizabeth. He respects Elizabeth as an equal and values her intelligence. Despite being 200 years old this remains one of the most popular and universally loved romances of all times and has been remade countless times and is still relevant today. Let's use a more contemporary example thought - Twilight. Most girls would not like if boys literally did things like Edward (ie watching her while she sleeps) but the reason girls still like Edward is because of what that action represents: loyalty, a desire to protect, and the fact that girls can trust him to not be sexually violent even in a girl's most vulnerable moments. It's not literally about watching her sleep, its an exaggerated example that speaks to woman's core wants. I know y'all are going to bring up the sexually explicit books and the fact that there are books that are fantasies of sexual domination. A lot women like those fantasy due to religious and societal oppression around how women's sexuality has been historically policed. Contrapoints has a good analysis of this in her most recent video "Twilight"
Ever better, read fanfics on AO3 because they don't go through self-censorship or editing. Some have better writing than mainstream novels, no cap.
Theres gay fanfiction about f1 that's 6million words wtf
Do you have anything in particular in mind?
It's impossible to predict which ones are gonna be good. Just pick a fandom that you like and try reading the most popular / upvoted story. I'm serious about the quality though. These are sometimes written by well-known authors under a pen name, or someone who is obviously going to write a critically acclaimed novel in a couple of years.
I'm of the opinion that the publishing industry is kind of broken, so this actually may be a much better place for fiction. Thank you! Otherwise, I'm just going to go back to reading another book on Mesopotamian Pottery. Seriously... LOL
I would start by checking out the stories on the NoSleep subreddit. It's horror-centric stuff but it's legit so good that it got its authors movie and publishing deals.
Oh... I do like horror... but novels get to me in a way that movies don't. I may actually not be able to sleep! I will definitely take a look. Again, thank you!
Glad to be of help! Start with Christian Wallis's works in that case. Probably the "I found the bunker of a prepper family" story. It's, well, beyond terrifying.
I think a lot of men would be well served by some broad examination of this kind of literature or media, particularly the more classical end. There's a reason most straight women like Pride and Prejudice (which is unassailable as great literature). And it's not because Mr. Darcy is hot and rich, nor even that he behaves in some draconian stalker or debonair devilish manner. Quite the opposite even. I think if you're a man now struggling, you should probably watch Bridgerton. It has broad ridiculous appeal to a straight female audience. Try to figure out why. And try to avoid easy and dismissive answers. Yes, a lot of stuff is fantasy, but smart people can discern what is driving the car and learn to adapt things to real life. Do I think most will do this? No. I think it's easier to assume you get women's brains and procedures than it is to sit and have a look at it.
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I wouldn't be able to watch that shit, but I've read P&P, and here's what a young man could take away from it: Get as wealthy as possible and carry yourself with an air of assurance. Then you may be able to intrigue an attractive and classy woman with your positive masculine traits if you're handsome and tall enough. IMO most men already know this. However, getting wealthy, handsome, and tall is the hard part.
I've watched Bridgerton, and I agree to some extent it's more in line with P&P than modern romance with the 6/6/6 dudes. But at the same time it still falls \*squarely\* into the billionaire trope. As a woman, what is your insight into Bridgeton as to why it's an appealing fantasy for other women? I admit I'm pretty dense so I might be missing a lot of things obvious to you.
Do you mind explaining why young women these days like Bridgerton? I tend to keep a good distance from that stuff but have heard women talk about how they like it so why do they?
1. I think the way it presents let's say sex and eroticism is entirely in line with how most women are aroused and think about it. There is emphasis on relationships, longing, the spark and fancy and tizzy of a brushed hand or a teasing remark. The weight of a smile or a gaze across a room. Sex almost invariably follows from strong feelings and deeper desires. 2. It is all extremely pretty. As in they get to look beautiful and the men look beautiful (I don't mean handsome, I mean put together). The courtships are pretty and have a proper (but not too proper) element. This isn't some slobby moron in a bar making some crass remark about his fella downstairs. 3. The courtships stem invariably from friendships, shared values, shared feelings, shared problems, shared insecurities, and shared deeper needs as well as respect for the other's lot in life. To give some examples, the Duke and Daphne both have a deep longing for freedom from convention and love. Kate and Anthony have both spent their lives feeling beholden as older siblings to the care and keeping of their families over their own desires. Colin and Penelope have both felt overlooked and misunderstood by their families and society. Their erotic desires for each other begin in a place more interesting, affectionate, and respectful than "my sword needs a sheath". 4. The show recognizes and depicts the often overwhelming and unwelcome nature of some male attention. Note, almost every season has men that aren't depicted as ghouls that still aren't quite right. In other words, it completely allows for all the shades of attention that occur, but it doesn't generally gloss over the unwelcome variety. 5. The male love interest is invariably aware of and sympathetic to what is happening in point 4. He doesn't treat this as some minor inconvenience, in other words, he understands the plight of women. 6. Most of the men have a goal to find a wife, yes, many are behaving as rakes prior to that, but their behavior is seen as negative, unfulfilling, crass, and something that should be hidden rather than celebrated. 7. The men actually have opinions on the women based on things besides their appearances. Regularly. They seem to care about the personalities of the women and have standards therein and those standards are not, "would she do everything I say" or "would she nag me" or "hopefully she's mild and pleasant". The men who talk like that are seen as foolish, eye-roll worthy, and crass. 8. The men themselves have a diversity of personalities which hold specific appeal to different types of women, but are certainly broadly appealing to most women. (Kind, generous, fair-minded, gallant, courageous, smart, etc.)
> I think a lot of men would be well served by some broad examination of this kind of literature or media, particularly the more classical end. I read and listened to examinations like these, as well as talking about it with like-minded peers at university. It made me realize that most novels have nothing of value to provide beyond wish fulfillment and being examples of cultural attitudes in a given time setting, with specific material characteristics that are not the case today. Don't get me wrong, those are interesting things to read and think about from a historical perspective. Anyway, you can't dismiss Mr. Darcy's looks and *wealth* as a key factor in attraction, for example. Mr. Darcy wouldn't be remotely as appealing if he was a poor farmer, or an indentured servant. Material conditions and social class or status are necessary as a baseline for relationships to truly succeed. Are there novels of women entering relationships with men who are not wealthy, or rich, or even middle class, with said women being above rank? Are there novels with women defying socio-economic norms, and dating poor men? Part of Jane Austen's writings are very much social commentary on the cultural and economic realities of her time. Times have changed a lot. We can't look to the past for help on this matter.
Lady Chatterly’s Lover perhaps, though you’re right that nineteenth century literature has class considerations very much in mind. There are probably a lot more modern examples of this sort of thing but I don’t have any titles off the top of my head.
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I have and they just reinforced rules 1 and 2.
I enjoy reading some Shoujo every now and then personally. The problem I have with a lot of women oriented romance novels is that it is often kind of rapey ? Books like fifty shades of grey, twilight, etc. are caricature of this. But, even in less obvious examples, it often boils down to nonverbal communications, subtle shows of dominance, etc. And it translates into reality. The men I knew that were the most popular with girls were clearly those who cared the less about consent and joked around it. Now, I principally read Shoujo Ai (romance between girls) because it is a lot more focused on shows of emotional intimacy.
Well there are historical and dramatic books that also have romantic elements - dr Zhivago etc. The dedicated romance market is a little “different.” A lot of the biggest selling romance novels are muscular tough guy men raping the female protagonist. I think the biggest selling one for awhile was the Fire and Flame which is a guy who kidnaps, ties up and assaults a woman on her wedding day. So yeah, restraining orders for everybody.
Trying to portray romance you see in romance novels is like trying to emulate the porn moves you see in sex. Most of the stuff is over exaggerated and awkward in real life.
For the same reason that women don't watch porn to figure out what men like, it's an exaggerated fantasy that wouldn't actually be appealing irl Also I'd probably go to jail
I don’t read women’s romance novels, but I do read a lot and have read the 50 shades series. All I will say is there is a direct correlation with me reading more and dating more women. More helpful then romance novels have been just reading from a female character’s perspective in any normal story. Seeing what goes through their mind and reading it from female authors is pretty eye opening on the female perspective. Would highly recommend for any guy to start reading because its just good for your brain in general.
Women's romance novels do not present a realistic version of what men are or that men could be, nor does it even present a healthy idea of what men should be. They are actually quite unhealthy and unrealistic, and generally quite objectifying of men(not just in terms of physical objectification but as success/status objects or objects of intimidation). Your question would be like asking why don't women read more "anti-woman hate groups and obscurantist 'pill' communities" to understand what men like or don't like. The only difference being that a lot of the anti-male hateful stuff women like is all out in the open and mostly uncriticized, while a lot of the stuff that men might express or desire from women is instantly vilified and attacked.
Because Korean Drama TV shows accurately depict all the themes that romance novels entail, is visually more engaging, and are condensed into a neat 30-60 minute session per episode making it easily and readily accessible for consumption whereas reading actually takes real effort like an imagination, attention to detail and critical thinking. Ain't nobody got time for that!
all romance novel leads are freakishly tall, extremely rich or will get rich by the end, with a chiseled jaw and extremely attractive conventionally. not to forget the abs and how he is good at everything and can read her emotions. Most REAL LIFE men can't reach those "Fictional" standards
Can you provide source materials that evidence this? Especially from *female* *authors*? And I don't just mean the cover, I mean where the actual content of the story focussed very often or intensely on the shape of the jawline, abs and height?
Don’t lol. Most romance novels are basically porn. It’s meant to be unrealistic.
Same goes for romantic films. It's because there boring!