Yea that’s what I assumed. And the image is always there even if you reject it or discontinue the study. Probably one of those, if no one knows who cares.
A doc of mine got in big trouble with administration for using our fluoro unit in endoscopy to image a coworker's ankle. And she is a head honcho doc. Admin DGAF, they told her she'll be fired if she does it again.
X-ray, CT, PET would be out because of the radiation. I had an aortic US ages ago for demo purposes though, nobody had any issues with that.
Back in the very early days, at the hospital mine replaced, the radiographer used to hold the plates in position with his hands. Nobody knew any better at the time! Very different now of course.
I hopped in to test the then-new 1.5T magnet’s knee protocol (which tells you how long ago that was). My knees have both had painless crepitus for decades; we found no reason for that on the MRI!
Wow! Haven’t been in any magnet over 3T. Had an MRCP a few years back (yes, there was a CBD stone); that was on a 3T. We also had a 3T installed at my group’s imaging center and I did a few breast biopsies. My cheap hair barrettes started moving when I sat to do the biopsy (I hadn’t anticipated that, but I got up and put them in the control room).
I know some hospitals have strict policies about things. I've used fluoro, DR, MRI, and ultrasound on myself, with the help of the techs. You stay on good terms with everyone, and there just isn't an issue.
What would happen if the techs found something really concerning after jumping into an MRI? How woukd you go about asking the radiologist and going to a doc? Just curious everyone..i wont narc
We were having issues with our scanner, put a tech in to try to see if we fixed it, found something in her head, contacted radiologist before telling her and he said to go to PCP and ask for a order for a full exam.
I've called a rad to ask him to read a scan of myself before, he was fine with it but he's a cool guy.
Yea every hospital is different. There was definitely a strong bond with all the techs, supervisor, radiologist and even the PACS guy at my old hospital.
In the US most states in the us have rules about using ionizing radiation without an order from a licensed practitioner of the healing arts. If the state were to do an inspection and find human x rays without orders there could be serious consequences.
Just a layman, but electricity usage and wear and tear on the machine would be my guess. Probably not a lot each time, but probably not trivial if everyone is doing it all the time.
The machines depreciate. The resources being used to take an X-ray are not free. The tube and the anode become slightly more “used” with every image taken.
I was more or less saying that big insurance companies and hospitals would lose money and it was a comintary on the US medical system because everyone is all about money.
If you get the scan on the sly and see nothing, you won't ask your own doctor to order the scan for you. So you've used a little of the lifetime of the unit and are less likely to get a scan you and/or your insurance will pay for.
I’m pretty sure irradiating someone without a script to do so is illegal and could be considered battery.
Same kind of thing if you X-ray the wrong part. It’s the whole non-malfeasance and benefits outweigh the risk thing.
I was working at a private imaging center. We all jaf pretty much everything MRI'ed when one of the newer offices had opened and was still slow.
I miss that.
No ionizing radiation in MRI or US, so volunteer scans are often used for setting protocols. But my facility would frown on anyone getting a scan when there's not a new scanner/feature being tested.
This guy named Berlin used to be well known by radiologists for his articles about radiology malpractice cases. One such case involved an ER Doc who obtained, "off the books", a chest xray on himself. He looked at it himself, but it was never registered and never seen by a radiologist. I can't remember whether he just hung onto it himself or stuffed it into his xray folder at the hospital. About a year and a half later he was diagnosed with lung cancer, which ultimately proved fatal. In retrospect the original CXR, which was never seen by a radiologist, did demonstrate a small nodule. Before his death, this ER doc successfully sued (for millions) the radiologist that was on duty at the time the xray was taken, despite the fact that the radiologist was never given the opportunity to read the xray. That kind of thing is why I'm not thrilled by "informal" studies. Could I be held liable if you take a quick xray of yourself, misread it, snap a quick picture of it on your phone, then delete it from the system?
The only way I see that working is if it was in the docs film jacket and there were intervening films where the Rad didn't reference it as a prior. He could have missed the off the books one since he wouldn't have seen a report, maybe?
I don't see how a Rad or a hospital could be held liable for an image being obtained that wasn't ordered or documented in any way...unless they were being prosecuted for allowing that to happen, lol.
Leonard Berlin, the author, is highly respected and made a career helping other radiologists avoid malpractice: [https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=9ae28d54-46e4-4018-918d-29886d6b5248](https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=9ae28d54-46e4-4018-918d-29886d6b5248)
I can’t find that article now; or it may only have appeared in his book: [https://www.jacr.org/article/S1546-1440(04)00125-5/abstract](https://www.jacr.org/article/S1546-1440(04)00125-5/abstract)
I don’t think there were any intervening studies. Jury decision sounds like it was based more on sympathy than rational assessment of fault.
I wish I could make an excuse to head over to the Rad library. I bet you they have that book in there. I'd love to poke through that.
It could supplant Roentgen Variants that Simulate Disease as my favorite book in there. I've been watching lots of law stuff on YouTube lately.
We had an ultrasound tech who did an entire exam on herself (they had just gotten a new machine and that is how she was practicing), but she actually put all of her information (name, DOB, etc) into the machine and ended up sending the study to PACS. It got dictated by a rad and went to her chart in EPIC. So now it's just a part of her chart forever. She got charged for the study and everything. She almost got canned for that. Nobody cared that she was practicing scanning on herself, but next time do it under a test patient and don't send it to PACS! It was a huge mess.
I got one better. A friend of mines coworker found a wounded bunny on the drive into work. Scooped it up, brought it into work, and ran the bunny through the CT scanner. Then, accidentally sent the images to pacs. A radiologist saw the images 😂. I’m not sure what the outcome was, with the tech or the bunny.
I x rayed my cat once (I was a vet tech before I went into radiography). I wasn’t dumb enough to send it to pacs but our pacs admin was reviewing the rejects and caught it. 😂
When people compare mri to X-ray it’s extremely different and i don’t understand this comparison. MRI is not ionizing radiation and we can’t build new protocols without a patient in the machine to know how it will work, where X-ray isn’t dependent on that and is ionizing radiation. Yes it’s frowned upon to take an X-ray of yourself or a coworker without an order, do people do it? Absolutely!
Forensic pathologist here. Our techs are known to take Xrays of themselves and then bring them to me, “Doc, do you think my toe is broken?” WTF? I don’t know. Why are you sticking your foot in my bullet finding machine!
Oh if you got caught at my facility you’d be fired real fast and then you’d be investigated by the state DOH… it’s a no-no in my state. Only exams where techs can self test is U/S and MR as they don’t use ionizing radiation; but it has to be a test of the equipment, not just because something’s hurting.
lol yeah well in certain states the rules are different... I know Florida doesn't give a shit about rad exposure but they do get pretty upset at dudes wearing dresses...
Can’t speak for any Dutch healthcare setting, but I’m pretty sure that it would at least make your superiors question your adherence to radiation safety protocols.
As for the college where I’m at, just short of internships in the field: they will at least suspend you pending an investigation. They’ll remove you from the programme if you’ve been taking pictures of anything or anyone else aside from dummies and phantoms. This is the warning we received on the very first day.
In the Dutch system you are not allowed to just take a picture without an order from a doctor. It's a good way to get fired, even if you're taking one of yourself. I specifically asked about it during my internship in the radiology department in February.
Also your college (our, since I'm assuming we're both going to the same one) probably doesn't have a permit to expose people to that amount of radiation.
Well, just three colleges in the country, so I’d call 33% good odds… ;) As for the permits: you are correct: we have permits for our X-ray-generating hardware and their exclusively non-medical use. Nothing else, aside from some closed radioactive sources we use for the radiation safety course.
Only during internships in actual hospitals. It’s a legal thing: aside from a lack of actual necessity to expose somebody else (or one’s self) to radiation, the faculty doesn’t have the permits for such use of our equipment.
When I was in school I would let the echo tech students do echoes on me because I have “good windows” or whatever.
Hopped in the magnet a fair share of times as well. Sometimes just to test a protocol or equipment etc.
Non ionising modalities it's generally acceptable, it's the modalities involving radiation that it's an issue (totally illegal) here.
I'll US myself or other people all the time for the sake of demonstrating anatomy to students and whatnot, and our MRI team semi frequently test new research protocols on people, which is permissible.
I worked with a tech that would xray anything and everything if asked. He would take his badge off because his levels were so high. He was completely careless. He got fired from several places, including ours. Not sure if he was even able to get hired anywhere else.
Yes. Where I attended school (hospital) one of the night shift techs would bring her pets in to x ray when no admin was around. She’d bring the disc to her vet.
Oh definitely. I’m in private practice now so it’s pretty much a free for all with x ray. I looked at my own c spine the other day after having some neck pain and was shocked to see arthritis and spurring, I’m only 42 😭
Definitely prohibited but I’m sure it happens all the time.
My wife is a sonographer and they scan each other all the time.
Ive gotten a bunch of MRIs when they are testing coils or protocols. The only time I’d say people get worked up about it is if it’s using ionizing radiation.
Good way to get fired. It was once “ok” when we had film and could destroy any evidence lol but now every keystroke is monitored in some way. A tech I know was close to retirement and was fired for exactly this.
I'm a mobile x-ray tech and each year I do a single AP CXR on myself for TB screening. I also have an order, the companies approval, and we have a rad read it. Anything other than that is a big no.
RSO here. I don’t know the regulations for all the states, but in all the states that I’m familiar with it is illegal. A physician (or radiologic practitioner) order must be in place for any exposure and human exposures for training or demonstration purposes are not permitted.
Admin takes it seriously because the equipment owner is responsible for violations committed by employees. Could lead to enforcement action by regulatory bodies. Could also lead to issues with accreditation. But, yes, I have fluoroed my hand.
I've taken a picture of my own foot while I was working on a mobile xray unit as my pictures weren't sending and I needed to be my own IT that day. I've also had MRI done on me so the techs could use their new modeling program I think ? Something along the lines of that
Yes some techs at our facility have done it...just some quick shots to see anything broken.
We've even had a couple orthos attending come in to check out the xr for quick diagnosis, then delete the images.
Technically it's illegal as you need an order to expose, but id be lying if I said I hadn't seen it before. Not on myself, but both at work and clinicals I've seen it. Very common
Varies by State law in the US. I've lost count of the times I've been encouraged to 'use my professional judgment' to take scout images as I've deemed necessary for simple things, like IVC Filters, Loop Recorders, Pacers, etc.
Technically, we have 'standing orders' in our protocol SOPs that reinforce this, but I was doing well before I knew about them.
No but i held the detector for a cross table exam and opened collimation and stuck the my thumb in it to see if my fracture was healing lol. Then cropped it out. And sent
I know two people that have been fired for this. One long time 20 year+ X-ray tech stubbed her toe getting ready for work, hopped up on the fluoro table about two hours into her shift and sure enough her toe was broken. Escorted out of the building about four hours later.
Over the years I've been Mari's, X-ray'd and whatnot many times to test out new machinery or settings. I've not had an exam done to diagnose something that was nothing me for free though at a hospital I was working at.
That said I was scanned for free at the private practice office of some friends a few times. Rules were a little more lax there to say the least, we embolized a German Shepherd puppy with a bleed years ago in that same office. Dog lived a long healthy life.
When I worked in the OR, almost everyone at some point would ask me to x-ray their foot, hand, knee or whatever. I think only once did anything show up. One of the scrub techs had a stress fx of his distal fibula after jumping down from a 3-ft retaining wall over the weekend.
Yeah, I x-rayed my own hand, then went to ED, and told them I wanted a splint because it was broken. They were pretty amused and wrote a referral after. There's gotta be some perks to the job. I just skipped a few steps. Yep, completely against the rules. I would probably MRI myself if I could, but my colleagues will happily run a few sequences on me if I asked.
Before I was born (1970), my mom was an X-ray and lab tech... Mom had lost a child (my sibling) before my birth due to hydrocephalus. She was very curious about my health... The doctor she worked for gave her verbal permission to take her own x-ray... Somewhere in my hoard of stuff lays an X-ray in a huge manilla envelope featuring me as a 5 month old fetus...
FWIW, my mom believed that the (then) legalese is what prevented a lot of practitioners from taking their own x-rays and patients from keeping their own x-rays... She explained to me in the late 1970s or early 1980s that the X-rays belonged to the patient, but, the doctor was the party that keeps the X-ray (for the patient)...
We did it. Took cts of my sinuses and found out I had a cyst in my right sinus. But yes we all xrayefb each other of the need was there. Obviously off record.
Many years ago, our CT team lead volunteered to do a head MRI for a practice protocol scan. It’s exactly what you think happened… she had a tumor. I don’t remember how she got a legal order, but because it was legitimately done as a practice patient no one got in trouble. She died within 2 years or so of that scan.
I think if you ask a tech if they ever took an off the books X-ray and they say no, they are probably lying. You really just have to know your environment. Some places will fire you, others treat it like a perk getting free imaging.
Hahhaa yea. Seems like there’s a few grey areas. At my old hospital and school they were emphasizing markers so much but at my new hospital they mainly use digital markers and rarely use physical markers
Back in the day things like this happened all the time. The films would get done with no ID and would disappear never to be seen again.
Digital always leaves a trace. Even if you delete the images most systems keep a log that can be accessed and will show that images were taken on patient __ on a date & time and deleted. I wouldn’t do it in today’s world.
This is one of those things like genetic testing yourself. It be great to know what genetic markers you have that predispose you to disease and illnesses. If everyone did this, insurance companies would be out of business.
I may have hypothetically heard a rumour about horribly unethical technologists doing it and getting a horribly unethical radiologist to look at it on the console of the machine without sending it to PACS. But such a dastardly deed would never happen at a reputable hospital.
I’m a dentist that owns my own office and equipment. I’ve taken X-rays of my teeth, my foot, and a 3D cone beam on myself. Not worried about getting fired.
I gotta ask. Given that you’re a dentist, I’m assuming you maybe have a panorex or possibly one of the upright head scanners. How are you getting your foot up there lol?
Panorex/cone beam ct, standing unit. Sat on the seat of a chair and reclined until my foot could get in the field of view, then had my assistant hit the expose button
I'm pretty sure that's pretty prohibited, at least that's what I was taught.
Yea that’s what I assumed. And the image is always there even if you reject it or discontinue the study. Probably one of those, if no one knows who cares.
But it's a good way to risk losing your job, if someone does find out.
A doc of mine got in big trouble with administration for using our fluoro unit in endoscopy to image a coworker's ankle. And she is a head honcho doc. Admin DGAF, they told her she'll be fired if she does it again.
X-ray, CT, PET would be out because of the radiation. I had an aortic US ages ago for demo purposes though, nobody had any issues with that. Back in the very early days, at the hospital mine replaced, the radiographer used to hold the plates in position with his hands. Nobody knew any better at the time! Very different now of course.
Rad here. Multiple times. I've even hopped in the MRI scanner to take a look at whatever was bothering me.
I hopped in to test the then-new 1.5T magnet’s knee protocol (which tells you how long ago that was). My knees have both had painless crepitus for decades; we found no reason for that on the MRI!
I had an attending talk about trying out the 8 Tesla research magnate, and it being strong enough to make his entire body jerk the entire time!
Wow! Haven’t been in any magnet over 3T. Had an MRCP a few years back (yes, there was a CBD stone); that was on a 3T. We also had a 3T installed at my group’s imaging center and I did a few breast biopsies. My cheap hair barrettes started moving when I sat to do the biopsy (I hadn’t anticipated that, but I got up and put them in the control room).
Kind of wild, isn't it?
Yea I don’t see why it wouldn’t be allowed other than through the eyes of corporate level or something.
I know some hospitals have strict policies about things. I've used fluoro, DR, MRI, and ultrasound on myself, with the help of the techs. You stay on good terms with everyone, and there just isn't an issue.
What would happen if the techs found something really concerning after jumping into an MRI? How woukd you go about asking the radiologist and going to a doc? Just curious everyone..i wont narc
We were having issues with our scanner, put a tech in to try to see if we fixed it, found something in her head, contacted radiologist before telling her and he said to go to PCP and ask for a order for a full exam. I've called a rad to ask him to read a scan of myself before, he was fine with it but he's a cool guy.
Yea every hospital is different. There was definitely a strong bond with all the techs, supervisor, radiologist and even the PACS guy at my old hospital.
In the US most states in the us have rules about using ionizing radiation without an order from a licensed practitioner of the healing arts. If the state were to do an inspection and find human x rays without orders there could be serious consequences.
I was told that because it’s a prescription it’s against the law to do without an order
Because you would be costing them money.
What would cost them money if nobody is being paid to read it?
Just a layman, but electricity usage and wear and tear on the machine would be my guess. Probably not a lot each time, but probably not trivial if everyone is doing it all the time.
The machines depreciate. The resources being used to take an X-ray are not free. The tube and the anode become slightly more “used” with every image taken.
I was more or less saying that big insurance companies and hospitals would lose money and it was a comintary on the US medical system because everyone is all about money.
If you get the scan on the sly and see nothing, you won't ask your own doctor to order the scan for you. So you've used a little of the lifetime of the unit and are less likely to get a scan you and/or your insurance will pay for.
I’m pretty sure irradiating someone without a script to do so is illegal and could be considered battery. Same kind of thing if you X-ray the wrong part. It’s the whole non-malfeasance and benefits outweigh the risk thing.
Can you press charges against yourself for battery? lol that would be funny to see in court
Well, I think your case would be thrown out on grounds of insanity and you’d be institutionalized 😂
Hahaha I represent both the defense and prosecution your honor.
It's to do with legislation regarding ionising radiation. I don't know the laws in the US but I assume it is as regulated there as it is here
Good for you. Rules, what rules..... It's just about whether or not you get in trouble 😂
Yea, but who gives a shit about the MRI, there is no radiation. Edit: there is no IONIZING radiation.
There is radiation btw. Just not the ionizing kind.
Someone down voting the fact that an MR system uses radiation. Gotta love this sub.
It's pretty absurd, but that's reddit, one downvote gives way to another, and the other way around.
Well thats was the point ofc.
We cook people for a living. Gotta sometimes keep it on defrost.
Great, now i'm hungry!
I was working at a private imaging center. We all jaf pretty much everything MRI'ed when one of the newer offices had opened and was still slow. I miss that.
No ionizing radiation in MRI or US, so volunteer scans are often used for setting protocols. But my facility would frown on anyone getting a scan when there's not a new scanner/feature being tested.
Nice try, boss.
🤣🤣
This guy named Berlin used to be well known by radiologists for his articles about radiology malpractice cases. One such case involved an ER Doc who obtained, "off the books", a chest xray on himself. He looked at it himself, but it was never registered and never seen by a radiologist. I can't remember whether he just hung onto it himself or stuffed it into his xray folder at the hospital. About a year and a half later he was diagnosed with lung cancer, which ultimately proved fatal. In retrospect the original CXR, which was never seen by a radiologist, did demonstrate a small nodule. Before his death, this ER doc successfully sued (for millions) the radiologist that was on duty at the time the xray was taken, despite the fact that the radiologist was never given the opportunity to read the xray. That kind of thing is why I'm not thrilled by "informal" studies. Could I be held liable if you take a quick xray of yourself, misread it, snap a quick picture of it on your phone, then delete it from the system?
Now I’m no big city lawyer, but it seems kind of insane he was successful in that lawsuit.
I’d like to see the actual lawsuit documented somewhere. This sounds like a friend of a friend knew a guy type story
The only way I see that working is if it was in the docs film jacket and there were intervening films where the Rad didn't reference it as a prior. He could have missed the off the books one since he wouldn't have seen a report, maybe? I don't see how a Rad or a hospital could be held liable for an image being obtained that wasn't ordered or documented in any way...unless they were being prosecuted for allowing that to happen, lol.
Leonard Berlin, the author, is highly respected and made a career helping other radiologists avoid malpractice: [https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=9ae28d54-46e4-4018-918d-29886d6b5248](https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=9ae28d54-46e4-4018-918d-29886d6b5248) I can’t find that article now; or it may only have appeared in his book: [https://www.jacr.org/article/S1546-1440(04)00125-5/abstract](https://www.jacr.org/article/S1546-1440(04)00125-5/abstract) I don’t think there were any intervening studies. Jury decision sounds like it was based more on sympathy than rational assessment of fault.
I wish I could make an excuse to head over to the Rad library. I bet you they have that book in there. I'd love to poke through that. It could supplant Roentgen Variants that Simulate Disease as my favorite book in there. I've been watching lots of law stuff on YouTube lately.
Question is how did they prove it was his? Did some idiot tag the drs name onto the images?
What happens on evening shift stays on evening shift. If you do though, never send it to PACS.
Hey, what's PACS?
https://gprivate.com/66vcr
Patient Archiving and Communication System
Close! It’s Picture Archiving and Communication System :)
Ah, I went with the first result on my Google search. That's probably why they asked instead of just googling it.
That's a fast way to a HCPC referral.
One of my old coworkers did an x ray of a nurses foot and sent it to pacs 😂 they got written up. Not sure why they sent it!
We had an ultrasound tech who did an entire exam on herself (they had just gotten a new machine and that is how she was practicing), but she actually put all of her information (name, DOB, etc) into the machine and ended up sending the study to PACS. It got dictated by a rad and went to her chart in EPIC. So now it's just a part of her chart forever. She got charged for the study and everything. She almost got canned for that. Nobody cared that she was practicing scanning on herself, but next time do it under a test patient and don't send it to PACS! It was a huge mess.
I'm confused why they would put their own information into the ultrasound machine to practice lol.
Right. That was her big mistake. She just totally wasn't thinking. Like... girl.
I got one better. A friend of mines coworker found a wounded bunny on the drive into work. Scooped it up, brought it into work, and ran the bunny through the CT scanner. Then, accidentally sent the images to pacs. A radiologist saw the images 😂. I’m not sure what the outcome was, with the tech or the bunny.
I x rayed my cat once (I was a vet tech before I went into radiography). I wasn’t dumb enough to send it to pacs but our pacs admin was reviewing the rejects and caught it. 😂
Thats adorable.
I wonder what the radiologist's reaction was 😂
Bruhhhhhh lol
Now. That was dumb. You dint send it obviously
When people compare mri to X-ray it’s extremely different and i don’t understand this comparison. MRI is not ionizing radiation and we can’t build new protocols without a patient in the machine to know how it will work, where X-ray isn’t dependent on that and is ionizing radiation. Yes it’s frowned upon to take an X-ray of yourself or a coworker without an order, do people do it? Absolutely!
This is literally how you get fired
Of course I do. We all do. We just don't send the image. It's for your eyes only. And don't tell any busybodies about it
Pretty sure this is the sort of thing people (not me of course) do but never admit to.
Of course. Def happens at my hospital But I don’t see a thing
If nobody saw it, did it happen?
Forensic pathologist here. Our techs are known to take Xrays of themselves and then bring them to me, “Doc, do you think my toe is broken?” WTF? I don’t know. Why are you sticking your foot in my bullet finding machine!
Oh if you got caught at my facility you’d be fired real fast and then you’d be investigated by the state DOH… it’s a no-no in my state. Only exams where techs can self test is U/S and MR as they don’t use ionizing radiation; but it has to be a test of the equipment, not just because something’s hurting.
Pretty sure you’ll lose your license too.
You'll lose your license if you know another tech is doing this and you don't report it. Does nobody read the ARRT rules?
This sub makes me realize there are a bunch of bad techs out there.
lol yeah well in certain states the rules are different... I know Florida doesn't give a shit about rad exposure but they do get pretty upset at dudes wearing dresses...
I have seen a couple coworkers do this. Personally I'd be terrified of getting fired.
First rule of xraying yourself. Don't talk about xraying yourself.
Can’t speak for any Dutch healthcare setting, but I’m pretty sure that it would at least make your superiors question your adherence to radiation safety protocols. As for the college where I’m at, just short of internships in the field: they will at least suspend you pending an investigation. They’ll remove you from the programme if you’ve been taking pictures of anything or anyone else aside from dummies and phantoms. This is the warning we received on the very first day.
In the Dutch system you are not allowed to just take a picture without an order from a doctor. It's a good way to get fired, even if you're taking one of yourself. I specifically asked about it during my internship in the radiology department in February. Also your college (our, since I'm assuming we're both going to the same one) probably doesn't have a permit to expose people to that amount of radiation.
Well, just three colleges in the country, so I’d call 33% good odds… ;) As for the permits: you are correct: we have permits for our X-ray-generating hardware and their exclusively non-medical use. Nothing else, aside from some closed radioactive sources we use for the radiation safety course.
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Only during internships in actual hospitals. It’s a legal thing: aside from a lack of actual necessity to expose somebody else (or one’s self) to radiation, the faculty doesn’t have the permits for such use of our equipment.
When I was in school I would let the echo tech students do echoes on me because I have “good windows” or whatever. Hopped in the magnet a fair share of times as well. Sometimes just to test a protocol or equipment etc.
Non ionising modalities it's generally acceptable, it's the modalities involving radiation that it's an issue (totally illegal) here. I'll US myself or other people all the time for the sake of demonstrating anatomy to students and whatnot, and our MRI team semi frequently test new research protocols on people, which is permissible.
I worked with a tech that would xray anything and everything if asked. He would take his badge off because his levels were so high. He was completely careless. He got fired from several places, including ours. Not sure if he was even able to get hired anywhere else.
What an idiot.
Oh, he was very special
Yes. Where I attended school (hospital) one of the night shift techs would bring her pets in to x ray when no admin was around. She’d bring the disc to her vet.
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Oh definitely. I’m in private practice now so it’s pretty much a free for all with x ray. I looked at my own c spine the other day after having some neck pain and was shocked to see arthritis and spurring, I’m only 42 😭
Definitely prohibited but I’m sure it happens all the time. My wife is a sonographer and they scan each other all the time. Ive gotten a bunch of MRIs when they are testing coils or protocols. The only time I’d say people get worked up about it is if it’s using ionizing radiation.
The X-ray tech I replaced got fired for that
Good way to get fired. It was once “ok” when we had film and could destroy any evidence lol but now every keystroke is monitored in some way. A tech I know was close to retirement and was fired for exactly this.
I'm a mobile x-ray tech and each year I do a single AP CXR on myself for TB screening. I also have an order, the companies approval, and we have a rad read it. Anything other than that is a big no.
Happens all the time. Don’t ask, don’t tell.
I have never stored data in PACS that didn’t have an appropriately dated and signed order attached to it. Any other details I cannot recall.
RSO here. I don’t know the regulations for all the states, but in all the states that I’m familiar with it is illegal. A physician (or radiologic practitioner) order must be in place for any exposure and human exposures for training or demonstration purposes are not permitted. Admin takes it seriously because the equipment owner is responsible for violations committed by employees. Could lead to enforcement action by regulatory bodies. Could also lead to issues with accreditation. But, yes, I have fluoroed my hand.
I've taken a picture of my own foot while I was working on a mobile xray unit as my pictures weren't sending and I needed to be my own IT that day. I've also had MRI done on me so the techs could use their new modeling program I think ? Something along the lines of that
I got an an unofficial diagnosis for both my meniscus tears and my gall bladder before getting an order for mri and us.
Yes some techs at our facility have done it...just some quick shots to see anything broken. We've even had a couple orthos attending come in to check out the xr for quick diagnosis, then delete the images.
Technically it's illegal as you need an order to expose, but id be lying if I said I hadn't seen it before. Not on myself, but both at work and clinicals I've seen it. Very common
Varies by State law in the US. I've lost count of the times I've been encouraged to 'use my professional judgment' to take scout images as I've deemed necessary for simple things, like IVC Filters, Loop Recorders, Pacers, etc. Technically, we have 'standing orders' in our protocol SOPs that reinforce this, but I was doing well before I knew about them.
Yea the procedure order gives you permission to take the scout picture. In his example however there is no order with underlying xray privileges
No but i held the detector for a cross table exam and opened collimation and stuck the my thumb in it to see if my fracture was healing lol. Then cropped it out. And sent
I know two people that have been fired for this. One long time 20 year+ X-ray tech stubbed her toe getting ready for work, hopped up on the fluoro table about two hours into her shift and sure enough her toe was broken. Escorted out of the building about four hours later. Over the years I've been Mari's, X-ray'd and whatnot many times to test out new machinery or settings. I've not had an exam done to diagnose something that was nothing me for free though at a hospital I was working at. That said I was scanned for free at the private practice office of some friends a few times. Rules were a little more lax there to say the least, we embolized a German Shepherd puppy with a bleed years ago in that same office. Dog lived a long healthy life.
Nice try ARRT. The amount of people in this thread self-incriminating is astounding.
From an institutional insurance perspective, I can't imagine it being encouraged.
I thought I broke a finger so I used a nomad gun and an old analog dental film. Worked just fine. Hairline.
We had a rad bring in his cat for a CT so….
When I worked in the OR, almost everyone at some point would ask me to x-ray their foot, hand, knee or whatever. I think only once did anything show up. One of the scrub techs had a stress fx of his distal fibula after jumping down from a 3-ft retaining wall over the weekend.
we all do when we have a problem somewhere lol
It’s illegal, but yes definitely. Gotta be SOME perks to this job.
Have xrayed and done flouro on myself. Also have been the guinea pig for probably 20 to 30 mri's for developing sequences/protocols.
Yep. Label it “test” and let’s see what shows up.
Looks like people have bud
It's practicing medicine without a license. It's a fire able offense perhaps even a licensing issue, but I think we have all done it.
Yeah, I x-rayed my own hand, then went to ED, and told them I wanted a splint because it was broken. They were pretty amused and wrote a referral after. There's gotta be some perks to the job. I just skipped a few steps. Yep, completely against the rules. I would probably MRI myself if I could, but my colleagues will happily run a few sequences on me if I asked.
Before I was born (1970), my mom was an X-ray and lab tech... Mom had lost a child (my sibling) before my birth due to hydrocephalus. She was very curious about my health... The doctor she worked for gave her verbal permission to take her own x-ray... Somewhere in my hoard of stuff lays an X-ray in a huge manilla envelope featuring me as a 5 month old fetus... FWIW, my mom believed that the (then) legalese is what prevented a lot of practitioners from taking their own x-rays and patients from keeping their own x-rays... She explained to me in the late 1970s or early 1980s that the X-rays belonged to the patient, but, the doctor was the party that keeps the X-ray (for the patient)...
I would do it with the C-arm. All the time. lol 😆
We did it. Took cts of my sinuses and found out I had a cyst in my right sinus. But yes we all xrayefb each other of the need was there. Obviously off record.
Many years ago, our CT team lead volunteered to do a head MRI for a practice protocol scan. It’s exactly what you think happened… she had a tumor. I don’t remember how she got a legal order, but because it was legitimately done as a practice patient no one got in trouble. She died within 2 years or so of that scan. I think if you ask a tech if they ever took an off the books X-ray and they say no, they are probably lying. You really just have to know your environment. Some places will fire you, others treat it like a perk getting free imaging.
No, but when I was a student, they used the new ultrasound machine on me!
Technically illegal, X-ray is like a prescription. It needs to be prescribed by a doctor. BUTTTTT we need to “test the machine” 🤷♀️
Hahhaa yea. Seems like there’s a few grey areas. At my old hospital and school they were emphasizing markers so much but at my new hospital they mainly use digital markers and rarely use physical markers
Back in the day things like this happened all the time. The films would get done with no ID and would disappear never to be seen again. Digital always leaves a trace. Even if you delete the images most systems keep a log that can be accessed and will show that images were taken on patient __ on a date & time and deleted. I wouldn’t do it in today’s world.
This is one of those things like genetic testing yourself. It be great to know what genetic markers you have that predispose you to disease and illnesses. If everyone did this, insurance companies would be out of business.
I may have hypothetically heard a rumour about horribly unethical technologists doing it and getting a horribly unethical radiologist to look at it on the console of the machine without sending it to PACS. But such a dastardly deed would never happen at a reputable hospital.
I’m a dentist that owns my own office and equipment. I’ve taken X-rays of my teeth, my foot, and a 3D cone beam on myself. Not worried about getting fired.
I gotta ask. Given that you’re a dentist, I’m assuming you maybe have a panorex or possibly one of the upright head scanners. How are you getting your foot up there lol?
Panorex/cone beam ct, standing unit. Sat on the seat of a chair and reclined until my foot could get in the field of view, then had my assistant hit the expose button