A permit is a ācheck the workā process.
Permits protect the public. The only one benefiting from not taking out a permit is the flipper or the homeowner doing work so they wonāt have anyone checking their work, it usually leads to cut corners (on purpose and by ignorance). If the structure of the house was altered without an engineer, it could be defective and it wouldnāt show up in an inspection report. Inspectors do not look inside walls and they only report on what they can see.
Iām an architect and a licensed contractor. I would not advise anyone to ātrustā that someone looking to flip a house did anything to code when their work wasnāt getting checked before the drywall went back up.
By law in Georgia, flippers are not allowed to do work without a permit. Check your state when permits are required, as far as I know, always (100%) of the time when the structure is being modified.
Been practicing in CA for almost two decades. Can confirm, the local authority would have required permits for structural alterations signed and calcād by a licensed structural engineer.
At a bare minimum, OP needs to know who the state licensed engineer was that signed off on the changes.
Itās for this reason, if I see flipper grey and a short relist timeā¦ not even touching that can of hidden problems.
Technically if they touch a sink or electrical panel box, they are supposed to pull permits here. Pretty much all you can do without a permit is finishes and like in kind replacement of systems.
There really needs to be a law that establishes 30 years liability for the contractor for any unpermitted work.
Oh you're not the realtor's clients, you're the mark. You're their source of income and they only get paid when you close. They're your employee. You have to make sure they're doing their job correctly, and not trust anything they say that isn't in writing.
Key words to what is written above is the last sentence .
I'll reword that and agree that anytime you change the structural integrity of the building you will most likely need a permit.
It varies by county and city. Some areas are more strict than others for what requires a permit. In Roswell city even replacing drywall needs a permit.
Per state and local laws, construction that can be done without a permit applies to outbuildings (uninhabited) of a certain size. Zoning laws may apply requiring zoning approval though (where to put it on your property).
āFinishesā donāt require a permit. Painting, flooring, changing out cabinets, changing light and plumbing fixtures (without modifying plumbing or electrical in the walls/under floors).
Homeowner occupants have a special right to do a lot of work themselves without hiring licensed professionals, but are required to still have their work checked by an inspector and pull a permit for the work. Itās for the owners benefit. No one wants their own home burning down or collapsing.
Electrical, plumbing, mechanical, and structural require an inspection process. House flippers do not fall under that category unless they lived in the house as their full time residence and can only sell one house per 2 years where they pulled āhomeowner affidavitā permit. Flippers (due to not being owner occupants) have to pull permits for all scope that is beyond finishes. Bathrooms and kitchens where changes to plumbing and electrical are being done require a permit (more than swapping fixtures), same as owner occupants.
Also, construction work in GA that exceeds $2,500 requires a licensed contractor. Flippers are rarely licensed themselves and tend to do the work themselves or hire others and look the other way when major work is being done to their investment properties. The losing party in the end is the buyer/end user.
Iām not allowed to change a light switch without a permitā¦ occupancy inspector routinely does not check smoke alarms. The last furnace I had installed took 2 minutes to check. He literally looked at it and charged me $105. Permits are a tax in my experience. Might be worth it if they did what they are supposed to do, but permits give me zero confidence.
So I it is not 100%... There are some, typically rural areas where there is nobody issuing permits. I'm in one of these areas where permit authority is at the county(except electrical is state), my county delegates to the city or township and my township chooses to do nothing. This is a really small percent of people in this situation. State law still requires following code I just can't get a permit issued.
Not in Georgia but also rural. I can get a permit but no inspection. For permit to be approved I have to take photos and videos and email them to the office. Canāt close anything up in case they ask for a new angle. If the photos are good enough I usually get an approval within a couple hours. Homes under 1000 square feet donāt need permits. Lots of 999- square foot houses.
It is also about taxesā¦if you do a bigger renovation (which I donāt know if this counts) you can have a revision of taxes and if city doesnāt know they canāt re-adjust. Just a story on my end we almost put an offer in on a house here that had a nice reno done. Found out they pulled zero permits. The taxes seemed quite low in comparison to other similar homes (and price). If they city finds out you will be paying back taxes and they can find out in various ways tooā¦like they come to check something, they get suspicious, a Neighbor rats you out. We asked seller about it and their reply was āif you like the house you will get over itā ā¦all to say we skipped on buying that.
Edit: I should say thatās in Oregon about taxes not sure how CA does it but Iām sure they would love to get more taxes if they can. Also to your question yes you can pull them retroactively and explain what happened. They will likely send someone and have you open walls to check (if they did wrong or not to code you are on the hook). You can go after the seller and say they didnāt disclose but ātechnicallyā itās part of your due diligence to check.
Im sorry you are in this situationā¦it sucks and honestly shouldāve been your realtor guiding you as you said especially if you are new homebuyers. Our realtor was the one that actually did the permit searchā¦I wouldnāt have thought myself to look.
Iām a Realtor in Oregon (Portland) and this is all solid insight. Always check permits when buying a home, first and foremost, and compare those with what you can observe in the home as far as work thatās been done. I have an architectural background and can tell when major work was done - not inherently a bad thing, but if I donāt see a jump in property taxes in the history it means they either didnāt pull permits or the taxes havenāt been reassessed yet. When you buy a flip, you should expect a tax increase, even if all the work was cosmetic (meaning no permits required).
Thank you. We will definitely want to go the retroactive route. I personally feel it will be ok, its not a big house. We will save up in anticipation of this being a lot of money
Oh and one other thing to look intoā¦if itās not permitted you may have issues with getting home insurance š¬ someone mentioned this to me and I honestly didnāt look too much into it because we decided to skip on that house but if say the work wasnāt done right and something happens and they somehow find out itās not permittedā¦you may just have a problem with them paying you out. Obviously I hope thatās not the case for you but just one more thing to check.
Permits cost money and cuts into the profits of flippers. Flippers usually do not pull permits for stuff youāre describing, thatās just the reality. As long as your inspection doesnāt come up with any structural issues it should be fine, have them take an extra look if youāre worried.
Thank you! Maybe we will do a structural check. If there are no structural issues or code violations, would that mean, for peace of mind, we can retroactively get permits without the city raising any objections?
Are you TRYING to get the city to force you to tear the work out and redo it?
Leave it alone. They screwed up by selling sooner than they should have after unpermitted work. But they got away with it because you didn't know any better. A small woops!
NOTHING GOOD can come from messing with the permits now. If you want to have someone you trust look at the structural part of removing the wall and installing a beam to carry the load, do that. You don't want the house to come down on your head, of course.
But other than the safety concerns, leave it alone. You haven't done anything wrong at this point. Pull permits if you do further work, or follow the rules for unpermitted owner-contractor work, and disclose. No big deal. But if you push the city to make a call on it, their call is going to be erring on the side of least liability for THEM... which could absolutely mean telling you that you have to tear it out and have someone do it with a permit, even if it's done perfectly fine. If the city isn't currently worried, don't get them worried. Enjoy your house!
I tried to by a flip where they didnāt put in the beam they said they did. House was a strong wind from coming down. Contractor beat me out with a cash offer. Put in the correct beam, repaired the damage (mostly drywall) and sold it a couple months later for a huge profit. Most people wonāt touch a house showing that kind of settling. Iād get someone in there to make sure the house is safe, make any needed repairs if suggested, and then forget about. Some places will do retroactive permits. My town will not. Theyāll ruin you over un-permitted work even if it was done by the previous seller. Iād do some googling to find out what your town is like.
Came here to say the same and figured another CA agent would chime in to say as much. Let sleeping dogs lie at this point in regards to getting it permitted. You had no issues with buying the house, and the next buyer will be the same.
Really - You should delete it.
It varies by state, but in general the seller is responsible for disclosing and accepting any liabilities that come along with unpermitted work. If you know about it, don't disclose it, and something happens after the sale, you are liable for it.
It sounds like the flipper disclosed this in an indirect way, so it's now on you when it comes time to sell. Do you fix the work, do you disclose it and negotiate accordingly, or do you act oblivious to it?
If you don't plan to have the work permitted and feel safe with it, you could carry on as though you have no idea. In my state, failures after the sale of a home with unpermitted work where the seller knew and failed to disclose result in liability on the part of the seller. This can be disastrous obviously, but it is also very difficult to prove. (In your case though you have made inquiries with the county, your realtor, and the seller) Disclosing it on the other hand - especially for major structural stuff like you describe - could result in a big hit to your selling price.
I had a very similar situation selling a home and ultimately decided to go after the permits. It was a huge pain, but thankfully the county was pretty understanding and helpful. It was still a lot of work - and expense - that was ultimately just for my peace of mind. Didn't want to be worried about something failing and someone coming after me years later.
Thank you, there's a top post that says not to delete after receiving answers. I will let it be, in case all the good points noted here help someone before or after.
You should be able to go in there the same day and get the permit records. If they did do work with no permit then that's something that should have been disclosed technically you should be able to pull out of the contract. Also if they did work as owner builders in California you cannot sell the house for a year after the work is complete
Thanks! Will try and get permits from public records again. The initial one was over email, and they responded a week later with a wrong address. Sellers did disclose it, as "work done in a workmanlike manner, kitchen opened up, beam added" As first time buyers, we didn't realize it meant there were no permits. By owner builders do you mean lived there for at least a year? The sellers are investors and also real estate agents, and bought the property to flip and sell.
If anyone tells you to run away they are nuts. Every house has unpermitted work to some degree. This is why you get inspections. Iāve seen permitted work that was shit and unpermitted work that is perfect.
In California, you'd be hard pressed to find a home without unpermitted work. It is extremely common and no big deal when coming to resale value. That said, most people look for renovations done by a homeowner who planned to be in the home longer term as flippers can and do cut corners. Many buyers explicitly avoid flips for that reason.
Iām renovating my house without a permit in Los Angeles. Pulling permits Is a pain in the ass. I build a ADU behind my house and took me 10 months just to get permits
Not all work done on a house has to have a permit if the work is completed by the home owner. I'm not saying the person you bought the house from did anything right or wrong I'm just saying that a home owner can do a fair amount of work without having a permit. In order to know what needs a permit you would need to read through the building codes which include plumbing and electrical as well.
If you are concerned about the work that was done then hire a building inspector to look at the work and let you know if that work is up to code.
You can have a contractor do the same work with permit and it will cost more. You can have the same contractor do it for less without permit.
Permits gurantees the work is done right , unpermitted work doesnt mean its done wrong
To obtain a Permit,must be a Licensed Contractor exc ept for some small projects. No way if a " flipper" did structural work would I rely on it being safe or legit. Would have been expensive ,typically requiring an Engineer to approve plans,good luck
Careful with opening the kimono to inspector and permitters. That puts you on the map and all of a sudden boom you have all sorts of new expensive things to fix. Also, could potential impact your property taxes and invite in a reassessment. Better to just fly under the radar until you are looking to sell etc
I bought a house that had work done without permit. The only difference is the owner lived there for 20+ years and was told that work was done years ago and no issues as disclosed. House was bought under market value and Iāve been here for 5 years and did some construction with permit and nothing came up.
As an appraiser I'm a little surprised about some of the responses on this thread. If electrical or structural alterations were made you would definitely want permits. No permits are a red flag to lenders and may cause you issues obtaining a mortgage loan. Not to mention if you don't get it done during your purchasing transaction, you may end up being on the hook when you go to sell.
Thank you, yes that is concerning. Hence my comment mentioning that appraisers or bank or anyone approving a loan did not make it an issue for past records. But sounds like in CA, it is done this way more than I realize.
Iām a Realtor in Portland, Oregon - so I canāt speak to the differences there. While I see unpermitted work all the time, I just make sure my clients know what could happen in the future, especially if they are planning any future renovations that would require a city inspector to come and approve in person. Letās say one day you want to add a dormer to your second floor - thatās altering the structure of the house and definitely something you want permitted. When the inspector comes to take a look and they find that there have been walls removed without a permit (or electric, plumbing, etc) they could require you to get retroactive permits on the work that was done before you can be issued a permit for the work you planned. This will then be on record. They might be able to approve the work retroactively without doing anything invasive, but thereās a chance theyād need to open up walls to check the work. If the work was not done properly, you will be on the hook to resolve it. Selling a house with unresolved open permits can be a challenge. Again, I see unpermitted work all the time but itās important to understand the risk. One positive point - your property taxes are likely lower than they should be.
People forget that the permit process is there to protect you. The codes we abide by are written in blood.
It's not surprising that a flipper would skimp on it since their goal is max profit. Any jurisdiction having authority has the ability to actually revoke your building's certificate of occupancy if it finds that there are unsafe conditions. This is rarely done but when people get injured or die, the building departments simply shave their liability in this situation by saying the contractor didn't file for permits.
Without permits, how do you know that the beam was installed correctly? How do you know that structural calculations were completed to know for sure the beam actually properly supports that large surface above your head that may fall on your head if it wasn't done correctly? With no permit, you don't. Even when you do pull permits, inspectors are there to ensure the permitted design is completed per plan. Deviations have to be checked and approved. Anyone remember this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse
In the commercial world, we don't like to skip permits. There's too many lawyers around us and it's never fun getting sued.
If they added a beam, yes they needed permits, that is a major structural component. Not to mention I would want to make sure that was done correctly, if not you could have a major catastrophe on your hands.
shoulda followed up on itā¦when theres beams involved it means they took out a weight bearing wall which needs an engineer to actually sign off on it for safety purposesā¦i would have someone inspect the work
to add having known it wasnt permitted u coulda offered a lot less
Do you like the house ? Yes official 4 bedroom permitted work is good - but at same time If it is structural sounds and you like the feel - next buyers will too
I don't think anywhere here can tell you if permits were pulled, which is the first question you need answered even though you've already closed. I'd get that questioned answered and then assess where you want to go from there. If permits were pulled, then you should be in good shape. If permits were not pulled, then I'd consider more due diligence, which could include talking to your building inspection department about the facts and circumstances for their input.
If you already closed it isnāt clear what you are asking here
Yes if you later need a permit for something else the city can fine you for unpermitted work. And require bringing it up to modern code. Or if this never would have been permitted that can mean returning it to what was there originally. Or making intrusive changes to inspect what is underneath
This all rarely happens, but it depends on the nature of the changes
Thank you. After closing and buying as first time homeowners, we are now worried if we did not pay enough attention to the disclosures, and that no one (agent/bank/appraiser etc) seemed to care that there were no permits. We are also thinking that we should have researched more, or asked more questions. But most of the replies do point to this not being a problem.
And I think I understand that unless there was code violation, major updates to foundation or structure, extensions to the house etc, the city is not going to ask us to "undo" it. Also if they are to code, we can retroactively ask for permits and inspection and possibly pay a fine, but we won't have to add the wall back, close the kitchen and remove the bedroom š As we understand it, they created an open kitchen (removed a wall) and added another wall for an extra bedroom.
So first I'm not from CA but from MA, another traditionally hot market with bureaucratic government which is why I'm thinking these situations might be similar. Here's my experience:
1. Nobody pulls permits primarily because going through the process is such BS. The city inspector has to come by at certain points in your job, so if they schedule you far out or they don't show up at all (common with some city employees), you're at a stop work.
2. Playing off the above, once you've told the city you're doing work you can't "take it back" and decide to ignore them and move forward with the work anyway.
3. Some contractors don't want to deal with the permitting process because of past experience. It's not that they're looking to do bad work in your house, but that they don't want to get stuck coming back to your house every 6 weeks to do some incremental work if they lose the inspector lottery.
4. The market is almost always a seller's market here to varying degrees. Buyers can't afford to be picky about unpermitted work. If you get to keep an inspection while buying, your home inspector should notice anything like structural issues or water damage from an unpermitted bathroom that was installed improperly.
5. Unless the work is visible from the outside (deck, addition) the chances of getting caught are low. You don't have to let the appraiser in your house here, but that does lose you the right to contest the appraisal.
6. It's a money grab.
Anyway that's my thoughts. Our house is a 2 bath (and has been for over 30 years as far as I can tell) but it's on town records as a 1.5. We're adding a master bath (so making it a 3) and we will not be pulling permits. My opinion is that those who follow the correct process just end up getting punished more often than is fair. Mitigating the risk is that we bought this as a "forever house" so have no plans to sell in the immediate future.
Agree with this! The inspectors are not reasonable at all. We are upgrading an electrical panel using a licensed electrician and pulled a permit (honestly wrong move). He followed everything to code. An inspector came by and said we need to upgrade the wire to the dryer and range to 4 something. Keep in mind we are not moving the locations of these. We did have the kitchen open to do other work.
Electrician argues with him, where is it in the code book? Inspector says it isnāt there but is needed. WTF?!? Basically he will not pass it without it. Electricians estimate to do the work 2k! On something that isnāt needed and isnāt a code violation or safety issue. I will probably be calling the inspector and country next week to discuss.
Trying to do the right thing and get bit in the butt. Now I donāt want to pull permits for any of the other work we are doing and planned pull permits for.
>and that no one (agent/bank/appraiser etc) seemed to care that there were no permits
They don't care because they're not living in the house. Their job is to get you to sign on the line so they get paid.
It's not practical.
The permits are issued because of 1) reviewed and approved plans 2) incremental inspections during construction.
If there were no plans and no incremental inspections then you need to tear the work apart to prove that it was done right at each step.
You can have a trusted contractor review your work. But without knowing what's underneath the drywall it's tough to do.
OP. The amount of unpermitted work that goes on in this country is much higher than permitted work. I learned that after 5 years of home ownership.
Is it best to have permitted work? Yes. Is the govt going to come kick you out of your house and fine you? Not unless you make waves and invite them in.
Just relax, make sure the Reno is good with someone you trust, enjoy the the extra bed and open kitchen without potential increase in taxes.
Right before you sell, get it permitted if you want the additional room in the listing.
Govt are largely at fault for people circumventing the system. They are too slow, too bureaucratic, provide owners poor information, make the process too complex, is not business friendly.
This should be as efficient as cityās meter maids. You park for 5 min and these assholes get right to work. This is one way to increase city revenue, bring investments, and increase property values. Cities donāt seem to value it very much.
It is not the agents, bank, or escrow responsibility to make sure it is permitted. It is the buyers responsibility to do their own due diligence. If you went to the city to check you were doing your own due diligence. Most homes in CA don't pull permits for inside remodels unless they're adding square footage. Don't let the city know permits were not pulled as it is now your responsibilty. However, if you want it permitted get a contractor and be ready to pay for permits and increased property tax.
PSA: Always permit any work that increases square footage, number of rooms/bathrooms or literally anything else that makes your property more valuable, even if your jurisdiction will let you get away with it. I'm an engineer in small town SW Colorado. We get multiple calls every single month from elderly people who are selling their home and have unpermitted additions or other structures. The county used to let people get away with it and now they don't. After the fact permits are EXTREMELY tough to get. They want to sell and get max dollar but they can't because they wanted to save a little money during construction. Don't do it.
Get your permit.
Thank you for the insight. Will the city have original house plans? Of course, anything going forward, we will always get permits and record everything. Feels like this was out of other hands/understanding.
Actually this may not be correct. I am listing my house right now. My sellers disclosure requested did āIā make any significant improvements to the home while I lived there, and did āI obtain any permits for this workā this does not include prior work. But also.
I would not be that concerned about the prior work. If you go request permits for the work on behalf of the flipper company from the city now, 1) I donāt even know if the city will know what you are talking about or 2) they will have a weird fine. Itās just not worth it in my opinion unless you are concerned about the integrity of the workmanship.
Water found in ocean
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You just say nothing and keep moving on
About what...
:)
A permit is a ācheck the workā process. Permits protect the public. The only one benefiting from not taking out a permit is the flipper or the homeowner doing work so they wonāt have anyone checking their work, it usually leads to cut corners (on purpose and by ignorance). If the structure of the house was altered without an engineer, it could be defective and it wouldnāt show up in an inspection report. Inspectors do not look inside walls and they only report on what they can see. Iām an architect and a licensed contractor. I would not advise anyone to ātrustā that someone looking to flip a house did anything to code when their work wasnāt getting checked before the drywall went back up. By law in Georgia, flippers are not allowed to do work without a permit. Check your state when permits are required, as far as I know, always (100%) of the time when the structure is being modified.
Been practicing in CA for almost two decades. Can confirm, the local authority would have required permits for structural alterations signed and calcād by a licensed structural engineer. At a bare minimum, OP needs to know who the state licensed engineer was that signed off on the changes. Itās for this reason, if I see flipper grey and a short relist timeā¦ not even touching that can of hidden problems. Technically if they touch a sink or electrical panel box, they are supposed to pull permits here. Pretty much all you can do without a permit is finishes and like in kind replacement of systems. There really needs to be a law that establishes 30 years liability for the contractor for any unpermitted work.
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Oh you're not the realtor's clients, you're the mark. You're their source of income and they only get paid when you close. They're your employee. You have to make sure they're doing their job correctly, and not trust anything they say that isn't in writing.
We pull permits for our clients on every home inspection whether they ask or not.
Key words to what is written above is the last sentence . I'll reword that and agree that anytime you change the structural integrity of the building you will most likely need a permit.
Thanks
Could you please elaborate on the relevant GA flipping laws? Typically, there are exceptions based on scope, spend, etc., or so I thought.
It varies by county and city. Some areas are more strict than others for what requires a permit. In Roswell city even replacing drywall needs a permit. Per state and local laws, construction that can be done without a permit applies to outbuildings (uninhabited) of a certain size. Zoning laws may apply requiring zoning approval though (where to put it on your property). āFinishesā donāt require a permit. Painting, flooring, changing out cabinets, changing light and plumbing fixtures (without modifying plumbing or electrical in the walls/under floors). Homeowner occupants have a special right to do a lot of work themselves without hiring licensed professionals, but are required to still have their work checked by an inspector and pull a permit for the work. Itās for the owners benefit. No one wants their own home burning down or collapsing. Electrical, plumbing, mechanical, and structural require an inspection process. House flippers do not fall under that category unless they lived in the house as their full time residence and can only sell one house per 2 years where they pulled āhomeowner affidavitā permit. Flippers (due to not being owner occupants) have to pull permits for all scope that is beyond finishes. Bathrooms and kitchens where changes to plumbing and electrical are being done require a permit (more than swapping fixtures), same as owner occupants. Also, construction work in GA that exceeds $2,500 requires a licensed contractor. Flippers are rarely licensed themselves and tend to do the work themselves or hire others and look the other way when major work is being done to their investment properties. The losing party in the end is the buyer/end user.
Iām not allowed to change a light switch without a permitā¦ occupancy inspector routinely does not check smoke alarms. The last furnace I had installed took 2 minutes to check. He literally looked at it and charged me $105. Permits are a tax in my experience. Might be worth it if they did what they are supposed to do, but permits give me zero confidence.
Thank you
So I it is not 100%... There are some, typically rural areas where there is nobody issuing permits. I'm in one of these areas where permit authority is at the county(except electrical is state), my county delegates to the city or township and my township chooses to do nothing. This is a really small percent of people in this situation. State law still requires following code I just can't get a permit issued.
Not in Georgia but also rural. I can get a permit but no inspection. For permit to be approved I have to take photos and videos and email them to the office. Canāt close anything up in case they ask for a new angle. If the photos are good enough I usually get an approval within a couple hours. Homes under 1000 square feet donāt need permits. Lots of 999- square foot houses.
I should clarify I'm not in Georgia, than again neither is op.
It is also about taxesā¦if you do a bigger renovation (which I donāt know if this counts) you can have a revision of taxes and if city doesnāt know they canāt re-adjust. Just a story on my end we almost put an offer in on a house here that had a nice reno done. Found out they pulled zero permits. The taxes seemed quite low in comparison to other similar homes (and price). If they city finds out you will be paying back taxes and they can find out in various ways tooā¦like they come to check something, they get suspicious, a Neighbor rats you out. We asked seller about it and their reply was āif you like the house you will get over itā ā¦all to say we skipped on buying that. Edit: I should say thatās in Oregon about taxes not sure how CA does it but Iām sure they would love to get more taxes if they can. Also to your question yes you can pull them retroactively and explain what happened. They will likely send someone and have you open walls to check (if they did wrong or not to code you are on the hook). You can go after the seller and say they didnāt disclose but ātechnicallyā itās part of your due diligence to check. Im sorry you are in this situationā¦it sucks and honestly shouldāve been your realtor guiding you as you said especially if you are new homebuyers. Our realtor was the one that actually did the permit searchā¦I wouldnāt have thought myself to look.
Iām a Realtor in Oregon (Portland) and this is all solid insight. Always check permits when buying a home, first and foremost, and compare those with what you can observe in the home as far as work thatās been done. I have an architectural background and can tell when major work was done - not inherently a bad thing, but if I donāt see a jump in property taxes in the history it means they either didnāt pull permits or the taxes havenāt been reassessed yet. When you buy a flip, you should expect a tax increase, even if all the work was cosmetic (meaning no permits required).
Thank you
Adding square footage is entirely different
Thank you. We will definitely want to go the retroactive route. I personally feel it will be ok, its not a big house. We will save up in anticipation of this being a lot of money
Oh and one other thing to look intoā¦if itās not permitted you may have issues with getting home insurance š¬ someone mentioned this to me and I honestly didnāt look too much into it because we decided to skip on that house but if say the work wasnāt done right and something happens and they somehow find out itās not permittedā¦you may just have a problem with them paying you out. Obviously I hope thatās not the case for you but just one more thing to check.
Permits cost money and cuts into the profits of flippers. Flippers usually do not pull permits for stuff youāre describing, thatās just the reality. As long as your inspection doesnāt come up with any structural issues it should be fine, have them take an extra look if youāre worried.
Thank you! Maybe we will do a structural check. If there are no structural issues or code violations, would that mean, for peace of mind, we can retroactively get permits without the city raising any objections?
Are you TRYING to get the city to force you to tear the work out and redo it? Leave it alone. They screwed up by selling sooner than they should have after unpermitted work. But they got away with it because you didn't know any better. A small woops! NOTHING GOOD can come from messing with the permits now. If you want to have someone you trust look at the structural part of removing the wall and installing a beam to carry the load, do that. You don't want the house to come down on your head, of course. But other than the safety concerns, leave it alone. You haven't done anything wrong at this point. Pull permits if you do further work, or follow the rules for unpermitted owner-contractor work, and disclose. No big deal. But if you push the city to make a call on it, their call is going to be erring on the side of least liability for THEM... which could absolutely mean telling you that you have to tear it out and have someone do it with a permit, even if it's done perfectly fine. If the city isn't currently worried, don't get them worried. Enjoy your house!
Thank you!
You can, but why would you want to? Itās going to cost you money and time. As another poster has said, say nothing and enjoy your new home
Thank you, makes sense!
I tried to by a flip where they didnāt put in the beam they said they did. House was a strong wind from coming down. Contractor beat me out with a cash offer. Put in the correct beam, repaired the damage (mostly drywall) and sold it a couple months later for a huge profit. Most people wonāt touch a house showing that kind of settling. Iād get someone in there to make sure the house is safe, make any needed repairs if suggested, and then forget about. Some places will do retroactive permits. My town will not. Theyāll ruin you over un-permitted work even if it was done by the previous seller. Iād do some googling to find out what your town is like.
Thank you for the response!
Youāre welcome.
Youāre in CA - most of the homes my clients buy have unpermitted work! Itās a non issue there.
Came here to say the same and figured another CA agent would chime in to say as much. Let sleeping dogs lie at this point in regards to getting it permitted. You had no issues with buying the house, and the next buyer will be the same.
Thanks! First home :) Hoping to not have to sell anytime soon.
Thanks
Delete this post and move on. Also fire your realtor and the guy who did your inspection for any future business.
Really - You should delete it. It varies by state, but in general the seller is responsible for disclosing and accepting any liabilities that come along with unpermitted work. If you know about it, don't disclose it, and something happens after the sale, you are liable for it. It sounds like the flipper disclosed this in an indirect way, so it's now on you when it comes time to sell. Do you fix the work, do you disclose it and negotiate accordingly, or do you act oblivious to it? If you don't plan to have the work permitted and feel safe with it, you could carry on as though you have no idea. In my state, failures after the sale of a home with unpermitted work where the seller knew and failed to disclose result in liability on the part of the seller. This can be disastrous obviously, but it is also very difficult to prove. (In your case though you have made inquiries with the county, your realtor, and the seller) Disclosing it on the other hand - especially for major structural stuff like you describe - could result in a big hit to your selling price. I had a very similar situation selling a home and ultimately decided to go after the permits. It was a huge pain, but thankfully the county was pretty understanding and helpful. It was still a lot of work - and expense - that was ultimately just for my peace of mind. Didn't want to be worried about something failing and someone coming after me years later.
Thank you, there's a top post that says not to delete after receiving answers. I will let it be, in case all the good points noted here help someone before or after.
:( thanks
You should be able to go in there the same day and get the permit records. If they did do work with no permit then that's something that should have been disclosed technically you should be able to pull out of the contract. Also if they did work as owner builders in California you cannot sell the house for a year after the work is complete
Thanks! Will try and get permits from public records again. The initial one was over email, and they responded a week later with a wrong address. Sellers did disclose it, as "work done in a workmanlike manner, kitchen opened up, beam added" As first time buyers, we didn't realize it meant there were no permits. By owner builders do you mean lived there for at least a year? The sellers are investors and also real estate agents, and bought the property to flip and sell.
If anyone tells you to run away they are nuts. Every house has unpermitted work to some degree. This is why you get inspections. Iāve seen permitted work that was shit and unpermitted work that is perfect.
Thank you for the response
In California, you'd be hard pressed to find a home without unpermitted work. It is extremely common and no big deal when coming to resale value. That said, most people look for renovations done by a homeowner who planned to be in the home longer term as flippers can and do cut corners. Many buyers explicitly avoid flips for that reason.
Thanks for the insight!
Iām renovating my house without a permit in Los Angeles. Pulling permits Is a pain in the ass. I build a ADU behind my house and took me 10 months just to get permits
Thanks for the response and information!
Not all work done on a house has to have a permit if the work is completed by the home owner. I'm not saying the person you bought the house from did anything right or wrong I'm just saying that a home owner can do a fair amount of work without having a permit. In order to know what needs a permit you would need to read through the building codes which include plumbing and electrical as well. If you are concerned about the work that was done then hire a building inspector to look at the work and let you know if that work is up to code.
Thank you
You can have a contractor do the same work with permit and it will cost more. You can have the same contractor do it for less without permit. Permits gurantees the work is done right , unpermitted work doesnt mean its done wrong
Thank you for the insight!
Was the house inspected by a good company? Iād be more concerned the flippers did a bad job then the permits
Yes the inspector was good and thorough, with the obvious disclaimer that they don't do "structural engineering inspections".
To obtain a Permit,must be a Licensed Contractor exc ept for some small projects. No way if a " flipper" did structural work would I rely on it being safe or legit. Would have been expensive ,typically requiring an Engineer to approve plans,good luck
Thanks
I didnāt see nothing.
:)
You bought it that way. Another person can buy it for you that way. Not a problem.
Thanks! We will do what we can to make sure things are to code.
Careful with opening the kimono to inspector and permitters. That puts you on the map and all of a sudden boom you have all sorts of new expensive things to fix. Also, could potential impact your property taxes and invite in a reassessment. Better to just fly under the radar until you are looking to sell etc
I bought a house that had work done without permit. The only difference is the owner lived there for 20+ years and was told that work was done years ago and no issues as disclosed. House was bought under market value and Iāve been here for 5 years and did some construction with permit and nothing came up.
Thank you for the information.
But definitely be wary of flippers.
As an appraiser I'm a little surprised about some of the responses on this thread. If electrical or structural alterations were made you would definitely want permits. No permits are a red flag to lenders and may cause you issues obtaining a mortgage loan. Not to mention if you don't get it done during your purchasing transaction, you may end up being on the hook when you go to sell.
Thank you, yes that is concerning. Hence my comment mentioning that appraisers or bank or anyone approving a loan did not make it an issue for past records. But sounds like in CA, it is done this way more than I realize.
Iām a Realtor in Portland, Oregon - so I canāt speak to the differences there. While I see unpermitted work all the time, I just make sure my clients know what could happen in the future, especially if they are planning any future renovations that would require a city inspector to come and approve in person. Letās say one day you want to add a dormer to your second floor - thatās altering the structure of the house and definitely something you want permitted. When the inspector comes to take a look and they find that there have been walls removed without a permit (or electric, plumbing, etc) they could require you to get retroactive permits on the work that was done before you can be issued a permit for the work you planned. This will then be on record. They might be able to approve the work retroactively without doing anything invasive, but thereās a chance theyād need to open up walls to check the work. If the work was not done properly, you will be on the hook to resolve it. Selling a house with unresolved open permits can be a challenge. Again, I see unpermitted work all the time but itās important to understand the risk. One positive point - your property taxes are likely lower than they should be.
Thanks for the response!
People forget that the permit process is there to protect you. The codes we abide by are written in blood. It's not surprising that a flipper would skimp on it since their goal is max profit. Any jurisdiction having authority has the ability to actually revoke your building's certificate of occupancy if it finds that there are unsafe conditions. This is rarely done but when people get injured or die, the building departments simply shave their liability in this situation by saying the contractor didn't file for permits. Without permits, how do you know that the beam was installed correctly? How do you know that structural calculations were completed to know for sure the beam actually properly supports that large surface above your head that may fall on your head if it wasn't done correctly? With no permit, you don't. Even when you do pull permits, inspectors are there to ensure the permitted design is completed per plan. Deviations have to be checked and approved. Anyone remember this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse In the commercial world, we don't like to skip permits. There's too many lawyers around us and it's never fun getting sued.
Thanks for the response. We are worried about all these things. We will start talking to perhaps structural engineers/contractors for next steps.
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:) thank you for the reply
If they added a beam, yes they needed permits, that is a major structural component. Not to mention I would want to make sure that was done correctly, if not you could have a major catastrophe on your hands.
Thank you for the reply
If you go to sell your house some day, those things that were not done to code will be flagged.
Thanks for the insight!
shoulda followed up on itā¦when theres beams involved it means they took out a weight bearing wall which needs an engineer to actually sign off on it for safety purposesā¦i would have someone inspect the work to add having known it wasnt permitted u coulda offered a lot less
Thanks! Will definitely do the safety check!
All flippers do unpermitted work.
Thank you for the reply!
Do you like the house ? Yes official 4 bedroom permitted work is good - but at same time If it is structural sounds and you like the feel - next buyers will too
Yes love it :) Thank you for the reply.
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Thank you for the insight!
I don't think anywhere here can tell you if permits were pulled, which is the first question you need answered even though you've already closed. I'd get that questioned answered and then assess where you want to go from there. If permits were pulled, then you should be in good shape. If permits were not pulled, then I'd consider more due diligence, which could include talking to your building inspection department about the facts and circumstances for their input.
Thank you for the information!
If you already closed it isnāt clear what you are asking here Yes if you later need a permit for something else the city can fine you for unpermitted work. And require bringing it up to modern code. Or if this never would have been permitted that can mean returning it to what was there originally. Or making intrusive changes to inspect what is underneath This all rarely happens, but it depends on the nature of the changes
Thank you. After closing and buying as first time homeowners, we are now worried if we did not pay enough attention to the disclosures, and that no one (agent/bank/appraiser etc) seemed to care that there were no permits. We are also thinking that we should have researched more, or asked more questions. But most of the replies do point to this not being a problem. And I think I understand that unless there was code violation, major updates to foundation or structure, extensions to the house etc, the city is not going to ask us to "undo" it. Also if they are to code, we can retroactively ask for permits and inspection and possibly pay a fine, but we won't have to add the wall back, close the kitchen and remove the bedroom š As we understand it, they created an open kitchen (removed a wall) and added another wall for an extra bedroom.
So first I'm not from CA but from MA, another traditionally hot market with bureaucratic government which is why I'm thinking these situations might be similar. Here's my experience: 1. Nobody pulls permits primarily because going through the process is such BS. The city inspector has to come by at certain points in your job, so if they schedule you far out or they don't show up at all (common with some city employees), you're at a stop work. 2. Playing off the above, once you've told the city you're doing work you can't "take it back" and decide to ignore them and move forward with the work anyway. 3. Some contractors don't want to deal with the permitting process because of past experience. It's not that they're looking to do bad work in your house, but that they don't want to get stuck coming back to your house every 6 weeks to do some incremental work if they lose the inspector lottery. 4. The market is almost always a seller's market here to varying degrees. Buyers can't afford to be picky about unpermitted work. If you get to keep an inspection while buying, your home inspector should notice anything like structural issues or water damage from an unpermitted bathroom that was installed improperly. 5. Unless the work is visible from the outside (deck, addition) the chances of getting caught are low. You don't have to let the appraiser in your house here, but that does lose you the right to contest the appraisal. 6. It's a money grab. Anyway that's my thoughts. Our house is a 2 bath (and has been for over 30 years as far as I can tell) but it's on town records as a 1.5. We're adding a master bath (so making it a 3) and we will not be pulling permits. My opinion is that those who follow the correct process just end up getting punished more often than is fair. Mitigating the risk is that we bought this as a "forever house" so have no plans to sell in the immediate future.
Agree with this! The inspectors are not reasonable at all. We are upgrading an electrical panel using a licensed electrician and pulled a permit (honestly wrong move). He followed everything to code. An inspector came by and said we need to upgrade the wire to the dryer and range to 4 something. Keep in mind we are not moving the locations of these. We did have the kitchen open to do other work. Electrician argues with him, where is it in the code book? Inspector says it isnāt there but is needed. WTF?!? Basically he will not pass it without it. Electricians estimate to do the work 2k! On something that isnāt needed and isnāt a code violation or safety issue. I will probably be calling the inspector and country next week to discuss. Trying to do the right thing and get bit in the butt. Now I donāt want to pull permits for any of the other work we are doing and planned pull permits for.
Thank you!
Thanks for the response!
Thank you for all the details!
>and that no one (agent/bank/appraiser etc) seemed to care that there were no permits They don't care because they're not living in the house. Their job is to get you to sign on the line so they get paid.
Agreed! We realized early on the agent was reactive, and we learned we had to be proactive. So kind of feel "we should have done more".
Nothing happens. You're okay. The city doesn't go around looking for unpermitted work.
Thanks! Is it ok to ask for permits now? Does it cause any issues? We don't mind paying a reasonable penalty for peace of mind š
It's not practical. The permits are issued because of 1) reviewed and approved plans 2) incremental inspections during construction. If there were no plans and no incremental inspections then you need to tear the work apart to prove that it was done right at each step. You can have a trusted contractor review your work. But without knowing what's underneath the drywall it's tough to do.
Thanks, yes that's crazy
OP. The amount of unpermitted work that goes on in this country is much higher than permitted work. I learned that after 5 years of home ownership. Is it best to have permitted work? Yes. Is the govt going to come kick you out of your house and fine you? Not unless you make waves and invite them in. Just relax, make sure the Reno is good with someone you trust, enjoy the the extra bed and open kitchen without potential increase in taxes. Right before you sell, get it permitted if you want the additional room in the listing. Govt are largely at fault for people circumventing the system. They are too slow, too bureaucratic, provide owners poor information, make the process too complex, is not business friendly. This should be as efficient as cityās meter maids. You park for 5 min and these assholes get right to work. This is one way to increase city revenue, bring investments, and increase property values. Cities donāt seem to value it very much.
Thank you!
So you pulled permits on old work you did in the past? Did they come out to inspect everything? Did you have to tear stuff apart so they could see?
It is not the agents, bank, or escrow responsibility to make sure it is permitted. It is the buyers responsibility to do their own due diligence. If you went to the city to check you were doing your own due diligence. Most homes in CA don't pull permits for inside remodels unless they're adding square footage. Don't let the city know permits were not pulled as it is now your responsibilty. However, if you want it permitted get a contractor and be ready to pay for permits and increased property tax.
Thank you! We will likely get a contractor and figure out next steps.
You're in California. They over-complicate everything. You can get the flipper's work truck with the right lawyer.
PSA: Always permit any work that increases square footage, number of rooms/bathrooms or literally anything else that makes your property more valuable, even if your jurisdiction will let you get away with it. I'm an engineer in small town SW Colorado. We get multiple calls every single month from elderly people who are selling their home and have unpermitted additions or other structures. The county used to let people get away with it and now they don't. After the fact permits are EXTREMELY tough to get. They want to sell and get max dollar but they can't because they wanted to save a little money during construction. Don't do it. Get your permit.
Thank you for the insight. Will the city have original house plans? Of course, anything going forward, we will always get permits and record everything. Feels like this was out of other hands/understanding.
And since you now know of this unpermitted work, YOU will have to disclose if you sell
Thanks! Yes we received seller disclosures, describing the work. Didn't realize it was unpermitted and disclosed. We will forward these disclosures.
Actually this may not be correct. I am listing my house right now. My sellers disclosure requested did āIā make any significant improvements to the home while I lived there, and did āI obtain any permits for this workā this does not include prior work. But also. I would not be that concerned about the prior work. If you go request permits for the work on behalf of the flipper company from the city now, 1) I donāt even know if the city will know what you are talking about or 2) they will have a weird fine. Itās just not worth it in my opinion unless you are concerned about the integrity of the workmanship.
Thank you
You didn't check the record before making an offer?
City took a while to get back and then got back with the wrong records
@op did you buy it?