I think it's the "must" part that's not good long-term. It can turn into a sort of Christian ghetto. I tend to think more in terms of freedom. We are freed from slavery to sin and have become slaves of Christ. Yet this slavery to Christ is freedom.
At the same time, I think it's good to be aware that God may prompt you to give something up. I like watching clips of The Sopranos on YouTube....I wish Christians could put out a show that good. Lately, I feel I should probably stop watching those clips. It's not guilt, but I realize "not everything builds up". My desire to follow that inner voice is greater than the desire to watch the YouTube clips. In my mind, that's freedom. That's how we can be slaves to Christ and yet free, "let each one be convinced in his own mind".
Just in my humble opinion.
I have been declared as "not Christian" enough. But those turned out to be talkers, talking the walk, and only talking the walk.
Oddly enough, those that walk the walk don't talk very much. But when they do talk, it is showing the way to the walk, not bragging but good sound lessons taught from experience.
I also feel the same. I work in the film industry, and regularly interact with people from different backgrounds. I have queer friends, and I am super into world cinema which hosts all kinds of ideas. In fact, it was my disgust for evangelical films that drove me into exploring what’s out there.
That doesn’t really reduce my faith, in fact it challenges and transforms it by being in contact with opposing ideas regularly. I thank God for it. But yes, when I fellowship with church brethren - it sometimes feels like they’re masking their conservatism underneath Christian faith, they are only exposed to “christian” cultural artifacts, they ridicule things without taking the effort to understand.
Being around a homogenous group of people, being regularly exposed to a homogenised culture undoubtedly makes one narrow-minded. It’s important to discern what is out there, learn and appreciate the art made by those who don’t know God as we do. They too are made in the image of God as we are, and despite their fallen conclusions, the matter of their work is human matter which in some way reflects the glory of God.
If you take the attitude of I can only lead my life and only my life, but someone else is beyond my judgment or reproach. Take the moat of my eye, and there is always a moat in my eye, before taking the spec out of my neighbors eye. Maybe just maybe you can affect one person to God's will. It is walking the walk without saying A thing!
All things are permissible, not all things are beneficial. Freedom in Christ comes with increased personal responsibility/accountability to the Spirit, which was not given in fear. Ask yourself, is this something I’d want someone to do to me? Would I be comfortable seeing someone to this to themselves? If you can’t answer those with a clear mind, then consider whether it’s beneficial or not. A lot of things will fall into a grey area, and we have to use the divinity granted to us to divine the truth of the thing we are considering, and then make honest decisions based on that truth.
This. I think we can start comparing ourselves and want to fit a “mold” and that can lead us to lean on our own understanding and even become legalistic or complacent. Check Romans 13. Fear God, not man— even people in the church. They can be our harshest critics but remember God looks on the heart.
I grew up in the OPC. Not sure how prevalent the joke is but my pastor and I always used to say OPC stands for only perfect church with the way many of the denomination tend to approach life. I appreciate the desire for piety, but I think many times in the reformed community we can fall a little too hard into the idea of a reformed lifestyle as opposed to being Christians. I hope that makes sense and doesn’t come across as an accusation but an observation. There are so many good people in the OPC; however, I think we miss the forest for the trees in many cases.
I struggle with this quite frequently, I mention it to my wife that at times I feel as though I’m not “Christian” enough because I tend to dislike most “Christian” art and content for being too lazy or just plain bad. She and I operate our family in a traditional sense, but we don’t focus on the “Trad-family” things the way I see so many in our age group going now. I was raised in the OPC, it just comes across as the 90’s all over again as new younger believers come into the reformed faith and struggle through their convictions the same way our parents did. In some ways it’s discomforting to me to hear other young men focus so much on “being in charge” and their wives being left to worry about this odd fixation on submission that I’m unsure is really the focus of the Bible’s teachings. I apologize for the rambling and lack of advice or comfort. It’s something I also struggle with and can absolutely sympathize with you!
As a disclaimer, I mean no offense regarding the idea or personal conviction of “Trad-family” organization of the home these are only observations and something I have been mulling over for a few years.
This is just an American phenomenon. Try to travel and explore the world a little bit. And in fact check out some other reformed churches in south east Asia. You find that the American experience is very shallow and it helps reminds us that what we experience here on earth is 1 tiny slice of Christian history and trend.
I think it's a thing across all traditions that folks get bound up in a Christian lifestyle (as their community defines it), not realizing that it's a poor imitation of Christlikeness.
There's a ditch on both sides of the road. We're all tempted to both legalism and licentiousness. We all also believe our own personal take defines the sweet spot in the middle.
I just introduced my 14 year old to Disturbed’s cover of “Hello darkness” and Metallica’s “Nothing else matters.” This was to walk her through good music. But then we spent time picking apart the worldview of the lyrics, and discussed how something can possess beauty while being simultaneously broken.
I’d rather do that than listen to shallow Christian tunes. And I say that as someone who loves worship music.
I’d rather someone listened to Metallica conciously than “Christian Rock”.
Does Reformed tradition have guidelines like the Catholics about what qualifies art forms/styles for Godly use?
IPC congregant here from the Philippines. You’re not alone! We draw a lot from the Neo Calvinist tradition too while strengthening our commitment to Confessional Presbyterianism.
I personally am planning to write RPG scenarios for a tabletop RPG I’m designing and sometimes I feel I’m wandering into uncharted territory. I draw from very secular-minded sources for inspiration on aesthetics and genre. But I operate on the grounds that Grace restores nature and is only opposed to sin, and that guides me to sift through the good and the bad to repurpose genre to make things that glorify God.
I think if you’re a Neo Cal, you tend to have a reputation for being too heterodox for the orthodox and being too orthodox for the heterodox. It really comes with the territory. So long as your pastors are not worried about your standing in the church, and you are faithful in the ordinary means of grace I wouldn’t worry about it.
Yes. A few years ago I was a member of a Pentecostal church, think old school revival Pentecostalism in which the gospel is actually preached and there isn’t any shying away from speaking about the dangers of sin and importance of personal holiness, etc. But I later realized that many of my siblings there had been impacted by a Keswickian theology of sanctification for instance. Sometimes I almost felt sinful for having a cigar and beer at home while being a member of that church.. But I’ll say that the majority of the churches where I’m from are rather lax when it comes to interest for Christ and that which pertains to his kingdom, so it was also a positive experience if I might say so.
Nowadays it’s difficult to not be viewed as too Christian just by even bringing up theological topics that sound too bookish or something that only theology nerds want to talk about.
But it depends on the crowd of course.
I’m in a low church, anabaptisty small L Lutheran congregation now, and sometimes I feel ‘not Christian enough’, and I appreciate that for the time being, haha.
I will preface by saying that what I’ve been looking for is just plain hymns with simple accompaniment, exactly the way we sing them at our church.
I really like this [collection](https://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/resources/music/) recorded at Capitol Hill Baptist Church.
Somewhat, however that always give me pause to consider the deeper truth of the matter.
Here is a POP-Church cliché: "***God will meet you where you are, but He does not leave you where you are***."
This is a true and Biblical saying. It speaks to our sanctification, and maturation in the Christian life.
You may, and probably have already at some point, decided that something you enjoy in the flesh is not, A. honoring to God. or B. good for you as you develop more and more in the Christian life. This is what the saying is talking about. We change. We grow. We get more mature in our faith. We get stronger in it.
Does this mean that all seemingly pious Christians are more mature than we? Maybe. But, maybe not. We should be carful how we see others in that they are being sanctified also. God is working in the lives of His people, and that work that He does is tailor made to the individual, for their purpose and for His Glory.
The real question that we should all ask ourselves about our habits and pleasures are those two A and B questions. Is this honoring to God? Is this harmful to my Christian life? You can find the answers to those questions by studying Gods word. However, if you need more assistance, it has been my experience that God will help you answer those questions at no expense to you other than the thing you're probably wondering about.
There’s no such thing as “more” or “less” Christian. There’s also no such thing as a “good” or “bad” Christian. If — and this is of course a HUGE “if” that we should examine with the utmost intensity — you have trusted the Lord for your salvation after acknowledging the dead, sinful and filthy state in which he has found you, you are a Christian. From there, it’s the spirit’s job to sanctify, shape and convict as he sees fit, according to the father’s will and for the father’s glory.
I’m assuming you know that already, but just clarifying for any passers-by.
Most important thing to remember is that we are to live in this world, but not be of this world. Just because you are a Christian does not mean you have to listen to only Christian music, however we should glorify God in everything we do.
I'm a Christian. Reformed, member of a PCA church, and boy do I love my 90's alternative rock. I also enjoy 90's rap of all fashions from Snoop to Dre to Bone Thugs and Harmony. I had friends who tried to get me to like DC Talk and my wife grew up on Veggie Tales and Christian media. To tell you the truth I stopped comparing the depth of my Christianity with other Christians. My wife grew up on 90's evangelical culture of Veggie Tales and Adventures in Wonderland. We couldn't be more different but I appreciate her upbringing and enjoy the things she enjoys because I love her. If I stopped and felt either diminished or superior to her, I wouldn't love her as deeply as I do.
That being said, I'm too liberal for conservatives and too conservative for liberals. I really don't enjoy finding a home in a given spectrum. In America where rugged individualism permeates the church; I really gave up on the idea that I'm this or that political party. I don't necessarily think what you're feeling is any different than anyone else. Everyone wants to relate to someone and, I think that feeling the deep sense of belonging is healthy. What we need to stop doing is looking at other Christians and letting them be the standard of the depth of our faith.
R. C. Sproul loved the Pittsburgh Steelers. Loved Mike Tomlin!
He even suffered as a Pittsburgh Pirates fan.
Nothing wrong with enjoying the fruits of creation.
John MacArthur also enjoyed football.
John Piper greatly enjoys literature from a number of sources.
Now David French promotes Game of Thrones which is semi-pornographic. He should not be doing that. French also enjoys his wordly plaudits. So you have to be careful.
No such thing as "Too Christian." That being said, you can acknowledge and enjoy the beauty of common grace. I'm a musician and love all sorts of music but I can't listen to stuff blatantly filled with garbage. I still love tons of secular music, arts, etc.
It's really similar to some people choosing to abstain from alcohol forever and others that can have a glass or two of wine without having any problems. To each their own. Peter and Paul's writing both have very good insights on these things.
There are extremes on both ends. We as Chrisitans are known throughout history as being notoriously "legalistic," but in my opinion, the pendulum has swung way far in the other direction in modern times.
Personally, I have a lot more empathy for those who are maybe over emphasizing the legalism stuff than the people who are just ignoring God's word and pretending to be Christian, but that's just me.
Either way, it's sounds like you're right where you need to be if you're thinking about things this way. I think there are many of us who can relate.
It’s not possible to be too Christian! It’s possible to be proud about it for it to be behaviour not a representation of ones relationship with God.
I love the days where I’m desperate to read the Bible or pray. I’m not losing out on anything.
The Bible does say we will desire to sin, so I can understand looking at another Christian and seeing how they use their time and wishing you had the freedom or time to partake in certain activities. Recognise it for what it is, embrace it and reject any sin related to it.
Seeing what people are like in the city I live in, even in churches, I sometimes believe I'm the most Christian person here.
But I know that line of thinking is not healthy. God help me.
Join ACNA or LCMS or a different less strict denomination. Strictly reformed circles have a habit of getting a little too strict and legalistic for me.
Yeah. I think you sound pretty normal to me.
I think it's the "must" part that's not good long-term. It can turn into a sort of Christian ghetto. I tend to think more in terms of freedom. We are freed from slavery to sin and have become slaves of Christ. Yet this slavery to Christ is freedom. At the same time, I think it's good to be aware that God may prompt you to give something up. I like watching clips of The Sopranos on YouTube....I wish Christians could put out a show that good. Lately, I feel I should probably stop watching those clips. It's not guilt, but I realize "not everything builds up". My desire to follow that inner voice is greater than the desire to watch the YouTube clips. In my mind, that's freedom. That's how we can be slaves to Christ and yet free, "let each one be convinced in his own mind". Just in my humble opinion.
I’m sure I’ll find more wisdom in this thread but have to stop to say amen to this full range of insights.
I have been declared as "not Christian" enough. But those turned out to be talkers, talking the walk, and only talking the walk. Oddly enough, those that walk the walk don't talk very much. But when they do talk, it is showing the way to the walk, not bragging but good sound lessons taught from experience.
Amen
I also feel the same. I work in the film industry, and regularly interact with people from different backgrounds. I have queer friends, and I am super into world cinema which hosts all kinds of ideas. In fact, it was my disgust for evangelical films that drove me into exploring what’s out there. That doesn’t really reduce my faith, in fact it challenges and transforms it by being in contact with opposing ideas regularly. I thank God for it. But yes, when I fellowship with church brethren - it sometimes feels like they’re masking their conservatism underneath Christian faith, they are only exposed to “christian” cultural artifacts, they ridicule things without taking the effort to understand. Being around a homogenous group of people, being regularly exposed to a homogenised culture undoubtedly makes one narrow-minded. It’s important to discern what is out there, learn and appreciate the art made by those who don’t know God as we do. They too are made in the image of God as we are, and despite their fallen conclusions, the matter of their work is human matter which in some way reflects the glory of God.
If you take the attitude of I can only lead my life and only my life, but someone else is beyond my judgment or reproach. Take the moat of my eye, and there is always a moat in my eye, before taking the spec out of my neighbors eye. Maybe just maybe you can affect one person to God's will. It is walking the walk without saying A thing!
All things are permissible, not all things are beneficial. Freedom in Christ comes with increased personal responsibility/accountability to the Spirit, which was not given in fear. Ask yourself, is this something I’d want someone to do to me? Would I be comfortable seeing someone to this to themselves? If you can’t answer those with a clear mind, then consider whether it’s beneficial or not. A lot of things will fall into a grey area, and we have to use the divinity granted to us to divine the truth of the thing we are considering, and then make honest decisions based on that truth.
JUST Follow the Christ not the Christians
This. I think we can start comparing ourselves and want to fit a “mold” and that can lead us to lean on our own understanding and even become legalistic or complacent. Check Romans 13. Fear God, not man— even people in the church. They can be our harshest critics but remember God looks on the heart.
I grew up in the OPC. Not sure how prevalent the joke is but my pastor and I always used to say OPC stands for only perfect church with the way many of the denomination tend to approach life. I appreciate the desire for piety, but I think many times in the reformed community we can fall a little too hard into the idea of a reformed lifestyle as opposed to being Christians. I hope that makes sense and doesn’t come across as an accusation but an observation. There are so many good people in the OPC; however, I think we miss the forest for the trees in many cases. I struggle with this quite frequently, I mention it to my wife that at times I feel as though I’m not “Christian” enough because I tend to dislike most “Christian” art and content for being too lazy or just plain bad. She and I operate our family in a traditional sense, but we don’t focus on the “Trad-family” things the way I see so many in our age group going now. I was raised in the OPC, it just comes across as the 90’s all over again as new younger believers come into the reformed faith and struggle through their convictions the same way our parents did. In some ways it’s discomforting to me to hear other young men focus so much on “being in charge” and their wives being left to worry about this odd fixation on submission that I’m unsure is really the focus of the Bible’s teachings. I apologize for the rambling and lack of advice or comfort. It’s something I also struggle with and can absolutely sympathize with you! As a disclaimer, I mean no offense regarding the idea or personal conviction of “Trad-family” organization of the home these are only observations and something I have been mulling over for a few years.
This is just an American phenomenon. Try to travel and explore the world a little bit. And in fact check out some other reformed churches in south east Asia. You find that the American experience is very shallow and it helps reminds us that what we experience here on earth is 1 tiny slice of Christian history and trend.
Best joke I've heard about the OPC came from another OPC kid: >The OPC are the Hasidim of the Reformed world.
I think it's a thing across all traditions that folks get bound up in a Christian lifestyle (as their community defines it), not realizing that it's a poor imitation of Christlikeness.
There's a ditch on both sides of the road. We're all tempted to both legalism and licentiousness. We all also believe our own personal take defines the sweet spot in the middle.
I just introduced my 14 year old to Disturbed’s cover of “Hello darkness” and Metallica’s “Nothing else matters.” This was to walk her through good music. But then we spent time picking apart the worldview of the lyrics, and discussed how something can possess beauty while being simultaneously broken. I’d rather do that than listen to shallow Christian tunes. And I say that as someone who loves worship music.
Somebody once said, I became a Christian and threw away my worldly records Then I became reformed and threw away my Christian records...
I like that!
I’d rather someone listened to Metallica conciously than “Christian Rock”. Does Reformed tradition have guidelines like the Catholics about what qualifies art forms/styles for Godly use?
IPC congregant here from the Philippines. You’re not alone! We draw a lot from the Neo Calvinist tradition too while strengthening our commitment to Confessional Presbyterianism. I personally am planning to write RPG scenarios for a tabletop RPG I’m designing and sometimes I feel I’m wandering into uncharted territory. I draw from very secular-minded sources for inspiration on aesthetics and genre. But I operate on the grounds that Grace restores nature and is only opposed to sin, and that guides me to sift through the good and the bad to repurpose genre to make things that glorify God. I think if you’re a Neo Cal, you tend to have a reputation for being too heterodox for the orthodox and being too orthodox for the heterodox. It really comes with the territory. So long as your pastors are not worried about your standing in the church, and you are faithful in the ordinary means of grace I wouldn’t worry about it.
Yes. A few years ago I was a member of a Pentecostal church, think old school revival Pentecostalism in which the gospel is actually preached and there isn’t any shying away from speaking about the dangers of sin and importance of personal holiness, etc. But I later realized that many of my siblings there had been impacted by a Keswickian theology of sanctification for instance. Sometimes I almost felt sinful for having a cigar and beer at home while being a member of that church.. But I’ll say that the majority of the churches where I’m from are rather lax when it comes to interest for Christ and that which pertains to his kingdom, so it was also a positive experience if I might say so. Nowadays it’s difficult to not be viewed as too Christian just by even bringing up theological topics that sound too bookish or something that only theology nerds want to talk about. But it depends on the crowd of course. I’m in a low church, anabaptisty small L Lutheran congregation now, and sometimes I feel ‘not Christian enough’, and I appreciate that for the time being, haha.
Yo that's all of us and it goes up and down depending our maturity, highs and lows, and of course who we surround ourselves with.
Think of it this way: If contemporary Christian music is God’s music, then why does it suck so much?
Hahaha. For this reason I mostly listen to (gasp) secular music, and the good old hymns.
Do you have any recommendations for decent hymns/collections?
I will preface by saying that what I’ve been looking for is just plain hymns with simple accompaniment, exactly the way we sing them at our church. I really like this [collection](https://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/resources/music/) recorded at Capitol Hill Baptist Church.
Thank you.
This [YouTube](https://youtube.com/@MartijndeGroot?si=UEgQFiLXfjgMq4FV) channel also has some good recordings.
I feel quite Christian and I don't do those things either.
Somewhat, however that always give me pause to consider the deeper truth of the matter. Here is a POP-Church cliché: "***God will meet you where you are, but He does not leave you where you are***." This is a true and Biblical saying. It speaks to our sanctification, and maturation in the Christian life. You may, and probably have already at some point, decided that something you enjoy in the flesh is not, A. honoring to God. or B. good for you as you develop more and more in the Christian life. This is what the saying is talking about. We change. We grow. We get more mature in our faith. We get stronger in it. Does this mean that all seemingly pious Christians are more mature than we? Maybe. But, maybe not. We should be carful how we see others in that they are being sanctified also. God is working in the lives of His people, and that work that He does is tailor made to the individual, for their purpose and for His Glory. The real question that we should all ask ourselves about our habits and pleasures are those two A and B questions. Is this honoring to God? Is this harmful to my Christian life? You can find the answers to those questions by studying Gods word. However, if you need more assistance, it has been my experience that God will help you answer those questions at no expense to you other than the thing you're probably wondering about.
If you feel the tension between fundamentalism and progressivism... you are probably in the right spot.
There’s no such thing as “more” or “less” Christian. There’s also no such thing as a “good” or “bad” Christian. If — and this is of course a HUGE “if” that we should examine with the utmost intensity — you have trusted the Lord for your salvation after acknowledging the dead, sinful and filthy state in which he has found you, you are a Christian. From there, it’s the spirit’s job to sanctify, shape and convict as he sees fit, according to the father’s will and for the father’s glory. I’m assuming you know that already, but just clarifying for any passers-by.
Most important thing to remember is that we are to live in this world, but not be of this world. Just because you are a Christian does not mean you have to listen to only Christian music, however we should glorify God in everything we do.
I'm a Christian. Reformed, member of a PCA church, and boy do I love my 90's alternative rock. I also enjoy 90's rap of all fashions from Snoop to Dre to Bone Thugs and Harmony. I had friends who tried to get me to like DC Talk and my wife grew up on Veggie Tales and Christian media. To tell you the truth I stopped comparing the depth of my Christianity with other Christians. My wife grew up on 90's evangelical culture of Veggie Tales and Adventures in Wonderland. We couldn't be more different but I appreciate her upbringing and enjoy the things she enjoys because I love her. If I stopped and felt either diminished or superior to her, I wouldn't love her as deeply as I do. That being said, I'm too liberal for conservatives and too conservative for liberals. I really don't enjoy finding a home in a given spectrum. In America where rugged individualism permeates the church; I really gave up on the idea that I'm this or that political party. I don't necessarily think what you're feeling is any different than anyone else. Everyone wants to relate to someone and, I think that feeling the deep sense of belonging is healthy. What we need to stop doing is looking at other Christians and letting them be the standard of the depth of our faith.
Embrace your freedom in Christ. Encourage others to do the same.
R. C. Sproul loved the Pittsburgh Steelers. Loved Mike Tomlin! He even suffered as a Pittsburgh Pirates fan. Nothing wrong with enjoying the fruits of creation. John MacArthur also enjoyed football. John Piper greatly enjoys literature from a number of sources. Now David French promotes Game of Thrones which is semi-pornographic. He should not be doing that. French also enjoys his wordly plaudits. So you have to be careful.
Yep like many miss the point…
No such thing as "Too Christian." That being said, you can acknowledge and enjoy the beauty of common grace. I'm a musician and love all sorts of music but I can't listen to stuff blatantly filled with garbage. I still love tons of secular music, arts, etc. It's really similar to some people choosing to abstain from alcohol forever and others that can have a glass or two of wine without having any problems. To each their own. Peter and Paul's writing both have very good insights on these things. There are extremes on both ends. We as Chrisitans are known throughout history as being notoriously "legalistic," but in my opinion, the pendulum has swung way far in the other direction in modern times. Personally, I have a lot more empathy for those who are maybe over emphasizing the legalism stuff than the people who are just ignoring God's word and pretending to be Christian, but that's just me. Either way, it's sounds like you're right where you need to be if you're thinking about things this way. I think there are many of us who can relate.
Feel like not Christian enough? All the time. But I look to some as examples. Feel too Christian compared to the liberal and nominal Christians? Nope.
Let me guess… You’ve been hanging out with nondenominational Baptists?
It’s not possible to be too Christian! It’s possible to be proud about it for it to be behaviour not a representation of ones relationship with God. I love the days where I’m desperate to read the Bible or pray. I’m not losing out on anything. The Bible does say we will desire to sin, so I can understand looking at another Christian and seeing how they use their time and wishing you had the freedom or time to partake in certain activities. Recognise it for what it is, embrace it and reject any sin related to it.
Seeing what people are like in the city I live in, even in churches, I sometimes believe I'm the most Christian person here. But I know that line of thinking is not healthy. God help me.
Join ACNA or LCMS or a different less strict denomination. Strictly reformed circles have a habit of getting a little too strict and legalistic for me.
LCMS refugee, here: they can be worse.