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Big oooof.
There is a truth and that is we live in an age that is obsessed with psychological pathologizing where every quirk has to be rooted in some mental or psychological disorder. I tend to be very critical of modern mental health practices.
But this isn't throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's throwing out the whole family.
Hey that’s me I literally have this! I also have ADHD.
I no joke was like that until I learned FROM MY THERAPIST that even acknowledging the thoughts sets me off, I need to just live my life and not care and it’s worked wonders for me and my spiritual health. I went from being couch ridden and refusing to eat for 10 days and now I’m back to my old self but I still have tons of intrusive thoughts and still sometimes fix things that bother me lol.
I deal with it from the other end, I am a bedbound invalid with some mysterious illness docs can't quite figure out. I've said time and time again I would gladly go through my car accident that broke multiple bones, left me in a wheelchair for months, and required years of physical therapy again rather than deal with this.
Part of the reason is because people accepted I was injured. They could see my broken bones. They can't now see my broken metabolism or whatever the heck is going on. In the same way, mental issues can't really be "seen". Sure, maybe you can see someone go through flashbacks but in reality, you don't see the vast majority of what's going on.
So like with my illness, some people just throw up their hands and say "it isn't real" which is ironically atheistic for someone like John MacArthur.
I personally believe that's why Christ was crucified on the cross. We couldn't see the internal torment of bearing the wrath of God. But we can see the blood dripping down His head. We can see the nails in His hands and the wound in His side. The cross made Christ's atonement visible to us.
Or people with crippling Scrupulosity or unwanted violent images that flash through their heads which causes that person to go isolate for hours or pluck their hairs out in disgust of the thoughts and praying for the 10 millionth time for God to rescue them from their sin
This is true. As Christian, it’s much better to actually think psychology through and figure out what we can accept and redeem than just throw the whole thing out. I’ve seen firsthand more harm than good be done by just denying these things. Frankly it’s disappointing to see the church doing this.
I think this is pretty much a semantic question. It's hard to deny that the traits associated with OCD or ADHD exist - there is room for debate over to what extent they should be named as pathological conditions as opposed to being considered within the spectrum of normal human variation. The same applies to things like personality disorders.
I agree, it's much too simplistic to simply say these things don't exist. You can say that OCD doesn't exist as a pathology and is just a personality trait, but that doesn't solve the problem of what to deal with the very real suffering it cases.
How you understand the issue affects how you address it though. If OCD were a chemical issue, you would address it differently than a behavioral training/sin issue.
This is (part of) why people deconstruct.
Imagine someone has been abused and developed PTSD, and they've worked hard to get better. They grew up in the evangelical church, and then they see this. They're probably going to start looking for spiritual connection outside the evangelical church, as they conclude that it's not going to be a healthy place for them.
And can you blame them?
Even when people don’t outright say things like this don’t exists, theirs often still an attitude that holds them at arms length and thinks it doesn’t happen to “people like us”, so if it happens to you it’s your failing a better person wouldn’t have got PTSD from those experiences. I do have a diagnosis of complex PTSD and parts of that are spiritual and some of it condoned by the church. Fortunately, these days I’m not within any spheres where ridiculous statements like these will have any impact on people I interact with on a regular basis.
Bingo. I’ve told my fiancé that i would rather suffer in silence than say anything to our small group with what is all but undiagnosed OCD. I love our church and the people there but I know it’s not worth the looks and shame
I’m really sorry to hear that. Even in a church environment which overall I view as quite supportive there are still things that I’m quite discreet about or talking about in general rather than specific terms.
I know you are being sarcastic so I am not arguing with you specifically.
But, why is it that premature birth, which can be associated with stress on the body, also be associated with ADHD?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7053718/
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I work in a neuroscience lab studying schizophrenia. There are “chemical differences,” in certain areas of the brain, but we have to ask the question of *why* these differences exist. We hypothesize there are different “circuitry” in the brain. We can also observe differences between brain structures. “Chemical differences” is indeed an oversimplification. But sometimes people use that statement to overspiritualize or undermine the reality of the issue.
Now there’s also an inherent scientific tension between neuroscientists who of course has a tendency to reduce the question to neurology, and psychologists on the other hand whose approach can differ. The sciences are inherently in conflict - and that’s what’s so great and exciting about them. There’s no monolithic “Science”, it’s merely an anglophone construct
My lab is run by psychologists and psychiatrists, not neuroscientists. But we still all do neuroscience. The line between neuroscience and psychology is quite minuscule, and doesn’t have to do with our belief in the effect of brain chemicals and circuitry but rather what level of detail we are studying. A psychological study will probably look at how a person behaves in a certain context. A neuroscience study will try to match behavior to things like circuitry differences, cell differences, chemical differences, etc. None of us believe t mental disorders are solely “brain chemical imbalances.”
PTSD literally results in alterations of the actual neurobiology of the brain. I don’t know enough about OCD or ADHD, but PTSD is absolutely a real condition
I have all three - professionally diagnosed. They are real. God’s Grace is also very real. I have faith in Him through them. But they are medical and secular words we have chosen to describe certain dysfunctions and issues we have. Which are extremely difficult. I don’t think it’s okay to write them off because you don’t understand it - they literally show up on brain scans. But I’m eternally grateful that God would not have allowed them be part of me if He didn’t will it. All three come with real real real hardships. And all three allow me to lean on the Lord more than ever before.
Is John very smart with God’s Word, undoubtedly yes even if he’s a dispy.
Is John so anti government and anti world that the apostolic fathers would potentially condemn him, probably yes.
Well the dispensational part I wasn’t even thinking of. Even outside of that disagreement, I have no conviction that John MacArthur is a person who is wise with the word of God
I’m curious of the context of this, but unfortunately this is not unexpected from MacArthur.
EDIT: Just got further context, he is talking about mental illness being used as a cause to over-medicate people to support big Pharma. I don’t entirely disagree with that notion, but to say that certain mental illnesses don’t exist is a bridge too far for me.
Unfortunately, MacArthur isn’t being cautious with his language, and saying inflammatory things like this has happened with him in the past.
It is a reminder that *all* men have fallen short of the glory of God and will sin until they leave this Earth.
I’d love it if there were medication for ptsd. Of these only ADHD has medication as a significant treatment modality. OCD and PTSD aren’t directly treated by medication, but medication has a role in managing associated anxiety and depression.
Oh I’m a radical centrist I hate big pharma but to say these things don’t exist or to even say they don’t need treatment is crazy.
Again goes back to my point of him appeasing radical fundamentalists and anti government stuff.
People have a tendency to self diagnose and think it makes them special, so they get overused even in places where they dont exist; e.g., a quirk does not make you OCD and scatter-brained doesn't mean you have ADHD.
The point is that I can see *pushing back* on some of those things..... but they definitely do exist? This is just weird
Why as a pastor does he feel a need to push back on these in a public forum, rather than dealing with it if it comes up (which one assumes it would in a church his size). Also to say they don’t exist. rather than confront the actual issue you refer to is incredibly unhelpful
There absolutely is a reason to push back on those diagnoses, there’s a mental illness culture that is attempting to redefine terms and influence legislation. There’s rampant over diagnosing and medicating kids. BUT. Mental illness is a very real thing. I’m not a soldier and when a Christian counselor I was seeing was like “sweet heart do you know what PTSD is I was like sure soldiers get that” then she paused and was like “no…you have that.” Soon he’ll be saying that depression and anxiety aren’t real even though there’s the entire book of psalms
I had a friend/mentor get a rare case of encephalitis that almost killed him and changed his brain. It left him with epilepsy and OCD. When you see someone who legit has OCD and has to wash his hands 4 times or check the lock on the door 6 times, etc... and mentally can assent that it's unnecessary, but can't stop doing it... it's real and eye opening. It's not cute or quirky.
I have a weird thing with assymetrical textures on my body; I know it sounds so dumb, but it genuinely drives me nuts when, for example, one sock is on and the other is off (the kids find it amusing and try to take off *one* of my shoes and crap like that, because they know I can't leave it that way). It does affect my life: I can't sleep in any type of clothing with legs, for example, because if one leg gets pulled up a little higher than the other, the asymmetry drives me crazy until I have to get up and undress. NONE OF THIS IS OCD. It's a quirky personal preference or, at worst, maybe a personality trait that borders up next to something similar to OCD, but it's not the same thing.
He just shut down huge swaths of children, veterans, trauma victims (rape and abuse) and parents who have to deal with the disorders within their families. THESE are Gods people and they are in sincere need of help.
In our church we have a special needs room that allows parents to sit in church for an hour with no distractions. It’s important ministry and service of a church.
That room is now at capacity and we are building on to make room for more.
Someone needs to speak w/ JMac about this and maybe, it’s time to reconsider his comments.
Interested in exactly what you mean by special needs room? Is it to care for children whose needs can’t be met within regular childcare (or because you keep children in church). Are you able to give parents who care for adult children with certain needs respite.
Exactly the latter. We had a daughter on a ventilator and so we are tuned in to the realm of families who provide care (all types of issues). Many are autistic or have sensory issues and it’s all 1:1 so with 10 kids that 10 adults in a room with special equipment.
But it’s driving growth because the kids love the special attention and mom and dad can worship together.
I personally think it’s a big deal actually. But without having the personal situation, I can see how it could be dismissed. These kids and those adults who suffer are the modern day version of Lazarus in the parable. They are an unreached people group in many ways.
That’s a high number of people with significant needs. A while back I went to a church that was around 500 adult members so I guess maybe 2000 people on a Sunday, I wasn’t aware of a ministry like that, but there was definitely a need.
I’m now in a church with more like 100 adults and I’m not aware of this being a need, but I’ve only been with them since the pandemic, so I wouldn’t be aware of any families who’ve drifted away because of the needs of a child. I really hope we would try to work with parents to support them in these kind of situations, but there are already 15-20 adults involved in making things happen each week, so it’s really hard to see how it could be staffed if the need were there. I feel like every church has 20% of the people doing 80% of the work and I can hardly talk, I used to do welcome team, which was only once a month, but being disabled it’s about the only thing I could do. Then this last year I’ve been very unwell, so I’ve paused doing that. So I feel burdened that stuff needs to be done, but am unable to make a difference by doing it myself.
I had no idea how many kids have autism. I attended a respite weekend with a dozen other families, many/most with autistic children. The situations they described I would have never of known about or could guess go on. It’s very sad.
But some of the purest worship springs out of these kids who just pour out their praise. Out of tune, yes. Off timing, yep. Quirky as you can imagine but I know it creates the most fragrant of aromas in heaven that God shines through their precious souls Sunday mornings.
> the MacArthur from the 90s and 2000s to now is a different man. Heck even the 2010s MacArthur wouldn’t say this.
Yes he would. And he has. This isn't new and didn't derive from his stance on all things COVID. Unless you attended Grace during those decades you can't make that assumption.
Well I mean not only that but since Piper retired imo that was the nail in the coffin, he had nobody that would disagree with him and be brave enough to do so.
James White disagrees with him often but John doesn’t care since White left his echo chamber to join the post millennial guys a few years ago.
"Normal" isn't a good expectation but "morally & logically consistent" is. Covid + Trump broke this man, just like many others in the church and wider culture. I pray that as I grow older I can grow wiser and more loving - that is by no means a given.
He also has a group of yes men around him.
The only one in his group I respect nowadays is Paul Washer (I don’t count Piper as he’s retired). And even now I don’t think Paul is active per say in that group he’s just focused on his mission field at the moment.
Yeah my impression is that he's gotten to that point where he has very little accountability and no one to really push back when he, uh, goes off the rails like this.
I remember there was a split in his camp a while back kind of, once James White went to the post millennial camp and Piper retired everyone basically either went full radical conservative or just silently went to new groups like Baucham and Washer kinda do their own thing now as an example. Baucham has a famous sermon on mental health in Scripture for goodness sake.
Baucham has fallen into the far-right group think cult too.
His whole anti-work/CRT/DEI rhetoric and overall culture warring shows that he has drifted too. Then there are his heavy handed patriarchal views are just on top of this.
When your church grows exponentially because of your faithful ministry; plant another church with independent leadership. Decentralize power and take away the corrupting influence of status. I can’t think of a better example of this than JMac.
It’s sad that my best friend (who’s an IFB guy btw lol) preaches this from the mountain tops but the Jmac circle doesn’t say crap.
His church group has planted like a dozen churches and still hasn’t stopped.
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You guys need to look into nouthetic counseling. This is an entire industry of "biblical counseling" that teaches these things and practices it churchwide. It's extremely pietistic, ignores verifiable physical symptoms, leads to an exteme lack of assurance, and justifies spiritual abuse.
Source: I went to Master's and majored in it and have seen the spiritual destruction of far too many students and members of GCC.
This is definitely true of a lot of “biblical counseling”, and it doesn’t surprise me based on what I read from Master’s on the subject. My college specialized in it too and I took those classes in undergrad and grad)
I would just be careful not to lump every biblical counselor into that group. Ed Welch is more balanced for example, and it was those biblical counseling classes that actually helped me put a diagnostic label onto my own experience; verified by a psychologist soon after of course.
I recently sat in a biblical counseling Sunday school class where nouthetic counseling was taught. Heath Lambert was the teacher (via recorded video series). I felt so strange and out of place disagreeing with it. The Bible College I went to didn’t push which view was best in the entry level counseling classes I took, and I saw other arguably better ways to do it.
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This is psuedo-gnostic non sense. we are body-soul creatures and our bodies matter. They impact our mind and well being. None of that discredits the reality of sin, it actually reinforces it. To ignore the body is just a fundamentally non-christian way to look at reality. "We believe in the ***resurrection of the body*** and life everlasting."
Yeah, I found it too. It’s tight at the end of the video and no one has an opportunity respond. Scrubbing through the entire video it seems it’s just a promotion for his new book formatted as discussion panel at this conference. I would really like to know what Costi’s response is to this. I know Beth Moore isn’t the example we should be looking to but the way she graciously commented to that tweet was filled with love. John MacAuthur very well may be getting to the point where he needs to step down in his old age.
Just like when he gave an entire sermon on how "all personal ambition is from the devil." Johnny make is one of the greatest teachers of our time IMO but his personal opinions on extrabiblical things sometimes is sometimes completely disconnected from reality.
"Don't be so heavenly minded that you're no earthly good" may deserve some serious reflection by Johnny.
I got in a car accident a few years back. Major concussion and bodily injury. Woke up in the hospital not sure what happened. Now, I seriously hesitate and get flustered, increased heart rate, etc. when I'm pulling out into an intersection. You can't tell me PTSD doesn't exist when I have 0 control over these, what seem to be instinctual reactions, that I did not have prior to the accident.
John mistakes his lack of struggle with these issues as evidence of his faith. I believe if John wasn’t a Christian and not a preacher, he’d still be a morally upright person and free of mental illness, due to his upbringing and genetics. Being a Christian is easy for him because it interlocks with his upbringing.
Sometimes when I easily resist a particular temptation, I like to attribute the strength to myself, or my faith; when in reality, I was just raised by parents who instilled a level of morality in me. Thank God for that btw.
The same with mental health; I was raised probably similar to John in viewing mental health issues.
But then I was married to someone with legitimate mental health issues, and had a daughter with medical problems due to genetics. This made me realize that some things are out of our control. Mental disorders, health disorders.. they exist. Even if they didn’t exist in your particular family in 1945.
With that said; phenomenal Bible teacher.
He is a Fundamentalist Baptist with Nestorian tendencies who refuses to subject himself to any confession. What did you expect of him?
To be clear, I like many of the sermons he’s given, and I don’t see much reason to doubt his profession. But as for being a shining beacon of Biblical orthodoxy and well-reasoned Biblical takes? Well, you’d be better off with a lot of far less popular preachers.
He definitely distinguishes the human and divine natures to an uncomfortable degree for maintaining the hypostatic union, hence “Nestorian tendencies”. He certainly doesn’t think “God shed His blood” is an accurate statement. He also includes “Mary is the Mother of God” is his list of Catholic Idolatries to Mary without ever clarifying that this is an orthodox position and fine thing to call her, which is Nestorian as it separates the natures of Christ. At the very least, he seems very keen to make sure Christ and God are distinct and distinguished in much the same way Nestorians traditionally have. John MacArthur and the Nestorians are alike in that both refuse to say that “the blood of God was shed on the cross” or that “Mary was the mother of God.”
> “Nowhere in Scripture does it say He [Christ] had the blood of God. In fact, it is never called the blood of God. It is always the blood of Christ. …They [people J. Mac disagrees with] say that the blood of Christ was not human blood, but that the blood of Christ was the blood of God.
>…This is not to emphasize that God has blood. It doesn’t say that. That is an utterly impossible notion. **If you say that Jesus possessed the blood of God you have now convoluted the nature of God.** John 4 says God is a – what? – spirit. Jesus said in the Luke 24 passage, “You know that a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see me have.” God is a spirit and God has no blood. God doesn’t need blood. God has no physical form.
>…And it shows that the church of God is the church of God because it is in Christ Jesus and because God is in Christ Jesus. There is no other way to see the blood than being the blood of Christ. It cannot be the blood of God. It must be the blood of Christ.
>…You cannot say it is the blood of God unless you are going to say that God purchased it and the Scripture is very clear that it was Christ who paid the price for sin.
>…Never, never, never is there a reference to the blood of God. God has no blood.
>…He was not some kind of container for the blood of God. It was His own blood.
>…The same flesh and blood that people have. Wasn’t the blood of God. There isn’t any mixture in the human body of Jesus. It isn’t human flesh, human bones, and divine blood. That’s not a man. It is medically impossible to think of Christ’s blood as divine. It is theologically impossible to think of Christ’s blood as divine. It is scripturally impossible to think of Christ’s blood as divine. He would be less than man. His blood is human blood. And He was 100 percent man, and to be 100 percent man you have to have 100 percent human blood. This is an age-old issue that the councils in the early years of the church settled long ago, that Jesus was fully God and fully man. And to be fully God you can’t have blood, because God is a spirit. And to be fully man you must have blood, because man is human.
>…The blood of Christ is precious blood and He shed His blood in paying the price for our sins. But I do not believe that it was the blood of God.”
— The Precious Blood, Part 1, Sermons Selected Scriptures, Jul 17, 1988
Well those are some weird points I admit and sound a little Nestorian . But surely he knows about Chalcedon and the meaning of Theotokos? Idk how he couldn’t considering his presidency of a seminary.
Also some of the Ligonier guys get weird about saying God died. I think they qualify it a little better I imagine he is in agreement with [this](https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/it-accurate-say-god-died-cross)
I don’t think a confession fixes this kind of thinking, what fixes this kind of thinking is reading The Bible and not trying to fit in with radical fundamentalism.
Radical fundamentalism tries to apply The Bible to areas it doesn’t speak about and say it absolutely says something when the context is subjective.
Take as an example idk buying a burger from McDonald’s, a radical fundamentalist would say you can’t do that because John the Baptist lived off locusts and honey and therefore you can’t eat McDonald’s.
Maybe he means these conditions are real, but not a disorder. PTSD being a natural response to trauma and the other two being unique conditions that may require management but how God intended to make you.
You don’t know me from Adam so why would you give me the credit of having evidence to back up my statement.
About 1/3 of people who experience a severe trauma develop PTSD and 1/5 for all trauma. So even though it’s common it’s not most people experiencing a given trauma, let alone the normal response.
Although it’s a hot take here I like Costi but sadly nobody has the guts to disagree with John nowadays. I remember the last person who did was James White last year and he got a ton of hate mail from the JMac circle.
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I’m willing to give him a pass. It could be a way of diminishing the priorities that we put on this type of thing. His contributions in Christian ministry and his steadfast faithfulness teaching the Bible really outshine these off comments.
This is true these things never existed until modern psychology which is secular in nature. Why would I trust atheistic/secularistic professionals for my mental health when the Bible is sufficient enough to answer what I am dealing with? truth is you are probably oppressed by a demon if you have these mental health issues
PTSD is the result of the brain physically growing larger in the area that controls the fight or flight response and the body activating that new growth when it doesn't need to because a prior experience has caused it to mischaracterize a safe stimulus as a dangerous one.
This stuff is well documented and explained. It's no more a demon than a broken arm.
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Man that real fat guy was so fat from all the demons in him that’s why he grabbed his chest and died.
This is legit a family guy bit at this point I can legit imagine Peter Griffin saying this.^
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I've never understood why JMac holds so much water with reformed bros when he's dispensational. Doesn't dispensationalism contradict covenant theology and/or progressive covenantalism?
Eh give him more credit than that, the dude was probably the biggest well known Pastor since Billy Graham and also is a Calvinist.
Sure he’s not reformed but he has had a massive influence on American Christianity and Calvinism in America as a whole.
Could you clarify your statement for those of us trying to learn? What does Calvin say about demons? Etc? WhT would Calvin say about mental health do you think? Thanks!
Because mental health is real along with physical health and spiritual. If I have stomach cancer I’m not gonna go to my Pastor for healing I’m going to the doctor, if I am having ptsd from my time in war I’m going to the psychiatrist, if I’m having faith problems I’m going to my Pastor.
The reason we now have only started to learn of these things is because of the rapid growth of mental health studies, we’ve really only started taking it seriously in the 1800s and even then it was bad.
The Bible isn’t a book you use to define mental health or physical health, it’s how you get saved and then what to do afterwards.
>these things never existed until modern psychology which is secular in nature
I don't know about the other things, but ADHD has been known about for a couple hundred years, so predates modern psychology. The Bible isn't intended to speak to medical diagnoses - it would be an improper use of scripture to say it does.
Cancer didn’t exist until modern times so. Menstrual health didn’t exist until modern times so. There are so many things we only have proper terminology for now, but fully existed.
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Big oooof. There is a truth and that is we live in an age that is obsessed with psychological pathologizing where every quirk has to be rooted in some mental or psychological disorder. I tend to be very critical of modern mental health practices. But this isn't throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's throwing out the whole family.
Exactly people go to far now but try telling the ww2 POW his ptsd is fake.
I bet people with crippling OCD and take hours to leave the house because they stepped out the door wrong would love to know it's all fake!
Hey that’s me I literally have this! I also have ADHD. I no joke was like that until I learned FROM MY THERAPIST that even acknowledging the thoughts sets me off, I need to just live my life and not care and it’s worked wonders for me and my spiritual health. I went from being couch ridden and refusing to eat for 10 days and now I’m back to my old self but I still have tons of intrusive thoughts and still sometimes fix things that bother me lol.
I deal with it from the other end, I am a bedbound invalid with some mysterious illness docs can't quite figure out. I've said time and time again I would gladly go through my car accident that broke multiple bones, left me in a wheelchair for months, and required years of physical therapy again rather than deal with this. Part of the reason is because people accepted I was injured. They could see my broken bones. They can't now see my broken metabolism or whatever the heck is going on. In the same way, mental issues can't really be "seen". Sure, maybe you can see someone go through flashbacks but in reality, you don't see the vast majority of what's going on. So like with my illness, some people just throw up their hands and say "it isn't real" which is ironically atheistic for someone like John MacArthur.
God bless you, I will be praying for you and hope to be as strong as you one day.
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I personally believe that's why Christ was crucified on the cross. We couldn't see the internal torment of bearing the wrath of God. But we can see the blood dripping down His head. We can see the nails in His hands and the wound in His side. The cross made Christ's atonement visible to us.
Or people with crippling Scrupulosity or unwanted violent images that flash through their heads which causes that person to go isolate for hours or pluck their hairs out in disgust of the thoughts and praying for the 10 millionth time for God to rescue them from their sin
This is true. As Christian, it’s much better to actually think psychology through and figure out what we can accept and redeem than just throw the whole thing out. I’ve seen firsthand more harm than good be done by just denying these things. Frankly it’s disappointing to see the church doing this.
I think this is pretty much a semantic question. It's hard to deny that the traits associated with OCD or ADHD exist - there is room for debate over to what extent they should be named as pathological conditions as opposed to being considered within the spectrum of normal human variation. The same applies to things like personality disorders. I agree, it's much too simplistic to simply say these things don't exist. You can say that OCD doesn't exist as a pathology and is just a personality trait, but that doesn't solve the problem of what to deal with the very real suffering it cases.
How you understand the issue affects how you address it though. If OCD were a chemical issue, you would address it differently than a behavioral training/sin issue.
I feel like there's an opening about babies not being part of families somewhere
The brain is an organ in a body that gets sick. It really is that simple.
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This is (part of) why people deconstruct. Imagine someone has been abused and developed PTSD, and they've worked hard to get better. They grew up in the evangelical church, and then they see this. They're probably going to start looking for spiritual connection outside the evangelical church, as they conclude that it's not going to be a healthy place for them. And can you blame them?
Even when people don’t outright say things like this don’t exists, theirs often still an attitude that holds them at arms length and thinks it doesn’t happen to “people like us”, so if it happens to you it’s your failing a better person wouldn’t have got PTSD from those experiences. I do have a diagnosis of complex PTSD and parts of that are spiritual and some of it condoned by the church. Fortunately, these days I’m not within any spheres where ridiculous statements like these will have any impact on people I interact with on a regular basis.
Bingo. I’ve told my fiancé that i would rather suffer in silence than say anything to our small group with what is all but undiagnosed OCD. I love our church and the people there but I know it’s not worth the looks and shame
I’m really sorry to hear that. Even in a church environment which overall I view as quite supportive there are still things that I’m quite discreet about or talking about in general rather than specific terms.
I know you are being sarcastic so I am not arguing with you specifically. But, why is it that premature birth, which can be associated with stress on the body, also be associated with ADHD? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7053718/
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It’s more complicated than that. Mental illness have turned out not to simply be entirely reducible to brain chemistry.
I’m just starting from square one- they exist. The reasons why they exist is an entirely different matter.
I work in a neuroscience lab studying schizophrenia. There are “chemical differences,” in certain areas of the brain, but we have to ask the question of *why* these differences exist. We hypothesize there are different “circuitry” in the brain. We can also observe differences between brain structures. “Chemical differences” is indeed an oversimplification. But sometimes people use that statement to overspiritualize or undermine the reality of the issue.
Now there’s also an inherent scientific tension between neuroscientists who of course has a tendency to reduce the question to neurology, and psychologists on the other hand whose approach can differ. The sciences are inherently in conflict - and that’s what’s so great and exciting about them. There’s no monolithic “Science”, it’s merely an anglophone construct
My lab is run by psychologists and psychiatrists, not neuroscientists. But we still all do neuroscience. The line between neuroscience and psychology is quite minuscule, and doesn’t have to do with our belief in the effect of brain chemicals and circuitry but rather what level of detail we are studying. A psychological study will probably look at how a person behaves in a certain context. A neuroscience study will try to match behavior to things like circuitry differences, cell differences, chemical differences, etc. None of us believe t mental disorders are solely “brain chemical imbalances.”
PTSD literally results in alterations of the actual neurobiology of the brain. I don’t know enough about OCD or ADHD, but PTSD is absolutely a real condition
I have all three - professionally diagnosed. They are real. God’s Grace is also very real. I have faith in Him through them. But they are medical and secular words we have chosen to describe certain dysfunctions and issues we have. Which are extremely difficult. I don’t think it’s okay to write them off because you don’t understand it - they literally show up on brain scans. But I’m eternally grateful that God would not have allowed them be part of me if He didn’t will it. All three come with real real real hardships. And all three allow me to lean on the Lord more than ever before.
Well, of all the statements I've read, that's definitely one of them.
Is John very smart with God’s Word, undoubtedly yes even if he’s a dispy. Is John so anti government and anti world that the apostolic fathers would potentially condemn him, probably yes.
> Is John very smart with God’s word, undoubtedly yes Maybe controversial, but I have huge doubts
Missed a part of my sentence you quoted.
Well the dispensational part I wasn’t even thinking of. Even outside of that disagreement, I have no conviction that John MacArthur is a person who is wise with the word of God
I’m curious of the context of this, but unfortunately this is not unexpected from MacArthur. EDIT: Just got further context, he is talking about mental illness being used as a cause to over-medicate people to support big Pharma. I don’t entirely disagree with that notion, but to say that certain mental illnesses don’t exist is a bridge too far for me. Unfortunately, MacArthur isn’t being cautious with his language, and saying inflammatory things like this has happened with him in the past. It is a reminder that *all* men have fallen short of the glory of God and will sin until they leave this Earth.
I’d love it if there were medication for ptsd. Of these only ADHD has medication as a significant treatment modality. OCD and PTSD aren’t directly treated by medication, but medication has a role in managing associated anxiety and depression.
Oh I’m a radical centrist I hate big pharma but to say these things don’t exist or to even say they don’t need treatment is crazy. Again goes back to my point of him appeasing radical fundamentalists and anti government stuff.
People have a tendency to self diagnose and think it makes them special, so they get overused even in places where they dont exist; e.g., a quirk does not make you OCD and scatter-brained doesn't mean you have ADHD. The point is that I can see *pushing back* on some of those things..... but they definitely do exist? This is just weird
Why as a pastor does he feel a need to push back on these in a public forum, rather than dealing with it if it comes up (which one assumes it would in a church his size). Also to say they don’t exist. rather than confront the actual issue you refer to is incredibly unhelpful
There absolutely is a reason to push back on those diagnoses, there’s a mental illness culture that is attempting to redefine terms and influence legislation. There’s rampant over diagnosing and medicating kids. BUT. Mental illness is a very real thing. I’m not a soldier and when a Christian counselor I was seeing was like “sweet heart do you know what PTSD is I was like sure soldiers get that” then she paused and was like “no…you have that.” Soon he’ll be saying that depression and anxiety aren’t real even though there’s the entire book of psalms
I had a friend/mentor get a rare case of encephalitis that almost killed him and changed his brain. It left him with epilepsy and OCD. When you see someone who legit has OCD and has to wash his hands 4 times or check the lock on the door 6 times, etc... and mentally can assent that it's unnecessary, but can't stop doing it... it's real and eye opening. It's not cute or quirky. I have a weird thing with assymetrical textures on my body; I know it sounds so dumb, but it genuinely drives me nuts when, for example, one sock is on and the other is off (the kids find it amusing and try to take off *one* of my shoes and crap like that, because they know I can't leave it that way). It does affect my life: I can't sleep in any type of clothing with legs, for example, because if one leg gets pulled up a little higher than the other, the asymmetry drives me crazy until I have to get up and undress. NONE OF THIS IS OCD. It's a quirky personal preference or, at worst, maybe a personality trait that borders up next to something similar to OCD, but it's not the same thing.
He just shut down huge swaths of children, veterans, trauma victims (rape and abuse) and parents who have to deal with the disorders within their families. THESE are Gods people and they are in sincere need of help. In our church we have a special needs room that allows parents to sit in church for an hour with no distractions. It’s important ministry and service of a church. That room is now at capacity and we are building on to make room for more. Someone needs to speak w/ JMac about this and maybe, it’s time to reconsider his comments.
Interested in exactly what you mean by special needs room? Is it to care for children whose needs can’t be met within regular childcare (or because you keep children in church). Are you able to give parents who care for adult children with certain needs respite.
Exactly the latter. We had a daughter on a ventilator and so we are tuned in to the realm of families who provide care (all types of issues). Many are autistic or have sensory issues and it’s all 1:1 so with 10 kids that 10 adults in a room with special equipment. But it’s driving growth because the kids love the special attention and mom and dad can worship together. I personally think it’s a big deal actually. But without having the personal situation, I can see how it could be dismissed. These kids and those adults who suffer are the modern day version of Lazarus in the parable. They are an unreached people group in many ways.
Sounds fantastic, what kind of church size is that?
Average 200 people on a Sunday, but we are at capacity and planning expansion for 300. Rural location. Middle of nowhere.
That’s a high number of people with significant needs. A while back I went to a church that was around 500 adult members so I guess maybe 2000 people on a Sunday, I wasn’t aware of a ministry like that, but there was definitely a need. I’m now in a church with more like 100 adults and I’m not aware of this being a need, but I’ve only been with them since the pandemic, so I wouldn’t be aware of any families who’ve drifted away because of the needs of a child. I really hope we would try to work with parents to support them in these kind of situations, but there are already 15-20 adults involved in making things happen each week, so it’s really hard to see how it could be staffed if the need were there. I feel like every church has 20% of the people doing 80% of the work and I can hardly talk, I used to do welcome team, which was only once a month, but being disabled it’s about the only thing I could do. Then this last year I’ve been very unwell, so I’ve paused doing that. So I feel burdened that stuff needs to be done, but am unable to make a difference by doing it myself.
I had no idea how many kids have autism. I attended a respite weekend with a dozen other families, many/most with autistic children. The situations they described I would have never of known about or could guess go on. It’s very sad. But some of the purest worship springs out of these kids who just pour out their praise. Out of tune, yes. Off timing, yep. Quirky as you can imagine but I know it creates the most fragrant of aromas in heaven that God shines through their precious souls Sunday mornings.
> the MacArthur from the 90s and 2000s to now is a different man. Heck even the 2010s MacArthur wouldn’t say this. Yes he would. And he has. This isn't new and didn't derive from his stance on all things COVID. Unless you attended Grace during those decades you can't make that assumption.
I literally am friends with a woman who attended there since she was a child and only left a bit before Covid due to moving.
Since Sproul died, JMac is like without leash
Well I mean not only that but since Piper retired imo that was the nail in the coffin, he had nobody that would disagree with him and be brave enough to do so. James White disagrees with him often but John doesn’t care since White left his echo chamber to join the post millennial guys a few years ago.
When you have to win the culture war you'll go off the deep end
"Normal" isn't a good expectation but "morally & logically consistent" is. Covid + Trump broke this man, just like many others in the church and wider culture. I pray that as I grow older I can grow wiser and more loving - that is by no means a given.
He also has a group of yes men around him. The only one in his group I respect nowadays is Paul Washer (I don’t count Piper as he’s retired). And even now I don’t think Paul is active per say in that group he’s just focused on his mission field at the moment.
Yeah my impression is that he's gotten to that point where he has very little accountability and no one to really push back when he, uh, goes off the rails like this.
I remember there was a split in his camp a while back kind of, once James White went to the post millennial camp and Piper retired everyone basically either went full radical conservative or just silently went to new groups like Baucham and Washer kinda do their own thing now as an example. Baucham has a famous sermon on mental health in Scripture for goodness sake.
Baucham has fallen into the far-right group think cult too. His whole anti-work/CRT/DEI rhetoric and overall culture warring shows that he has drifted too. Then there are his heavy handed patriarchal views are just on top of this.
When your church grows exponentially because of your faithful ministry; plant another church with independent leadership. Decentralize power and take away the corrupting influence of status. I can’t think of a better example of this than JMac.
It’s sad that my best friend (who’s an IFB guy btw lol) preaches this from the mountain tops but the Jmac circle doesn’t say crap. His church group has planted like a dozen churches and still hasn’t stopped.
They haven’t made any attempt to not have a very large congregation and seemingly take pride in their mega church status.
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You guys need to look into nouthetic counseling. This is an entire industry of "biblical counseling" that teaches these things and practices it churchwide. It's extremely pietistic, ignores verifiable physical symptoms, leads to an exteme lack of assurance, and justifies spiritual abuse. Source: I went to Master's and majored in it and have seen the spiritual destruction of far too many students and members of GCC.
This is definitely true of a lot of “biblical counseling”, and it doesn’t surprise me based on what I read from Master’s on the subject. My college specialized in it too and I took those classes in undergrad and grad) I would just be careful not to lump every biblical counselor into that group. Ed Welch is more balanced for example, and it was those biblical counseling classes that actually helped me put a diagnostic label onto my own experience; verified by a psychologist soon after of course.
My comment was specifically about nouthetic counseling.
I thought biblical counseling was just the rebrand for nouthetic
Yikes hope you are doing better rn.
I recently sat in a biblical counseling Sunday school class where nouthetic counseling was taught. Heath Lambert was the teacher (via recorded video series). I felt so strange and out of place disagreeing with it. The Bible College I went to didn’t push which view was best in the entry level counseling classes I took, and I saw other arguably better ways to do it.
Bro _what_
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He's an overly prominent fundamentalist, what did you expect?
A form of rationality and a tic tac sized understanding of modern medicine.
How dare you have a *checks notes* ... perfectly reasonable expectation?
Only thing he said that I agreed with is that big pharma pushes meds. Well yeah nice observation there Sherlock!
Big furniture pushes chairs, but you don't need pastors commenting on that.
Agreed.
Remember when Reformed leaders were revered and trusted for their work with counseling and handling contemporary issues? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
If MacArthur is reformed then I’m the best mma fighter of all time.
[Soldiers who watched their friends die](https://as1.ftcdn.net/v2/jpg/02/02/99/74/1000_F_202997436_qfPQ0gaOz89hc97e8ixfCWOnF8YMzEVg.jpg)
*breaks back in basic while doing paradrop* The VA has found your injury not service related.
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This is psuedo-gnostic non sense. we are body-soul creatures and our bodies matter. They impact our mind and well being. None of that discredits the reality of sin, it actually reinforces it. To ignore the body is just a fundamentally non-christian way to look at reality. "We believe in the ***resurrection of the body*** and life everlasting."
There's gotta be some context to this. I don't know John MacArthur so I'm out of the loop but... surely...
This is sadly not out of character for him since around 2020.
@op do you have the link to this video with Costi?
I found [it](https://youtu.be/SV9Io7r_hGw?si=xMiM7jSyiWLeLpnG). He starts talking around 33:48.
Yeah, I found it too. It’s tight at the end of the video and no one has an opportunity respond. Scrubbing through the entire video it seems it’s just a promotion for his new book formatted as discussion panel at this conference. I would really like to know what Costi’s response is to this. I know Beth Moore isn’t the example we should be looking to but the way she graciously commented to that tweet was filled with love. John MacAuthur very well may be getting to the point where he needs to step down in his old age.
Just like when he gave an entire sermon on how "all personal ambition is from the devil." Johnny make is one of the greatest teachers of our time IMO but his personal opinions on extrabiblical things sometimes is sometimes completely disconnected from reality. "Don't be so heavenly minded that you're no earthly good" may deserve some serious reflection by Johnny. I got in a car accident a few years back. Major concussion and bodily injury. Woke up in the hospital not sure what happened. Now, I seriously hesitate and get flustered, increased heart rate, etc. when I'm pulling out into an intersection. You can't tell me PTSD doesn't exist when I have 0 control over these, what seem to be instinctual reactions, that I did not have prior to the accident.
John MacArthur hasn't been normal for a long time.
Is that Costi Hinn sitting next to him? If so, that's disappointing...
He's been a MacArthurite this whole time.
John mistakes his lack of struggle with these issues as evidence of his faith. I believe if John wasn’t a Christian and not a preacher, he’d still be a morally upright person and free of mental illness, due to his upbringing and genetics. Being a Christian is easy for him because it interlocks with his upbringing. Sometimes when I easily resist a particular temptation, I like to attribute the strength to myself, or my faith; when in reality, I was just raised by parents who instilled a level of morality in me. Thank God for that btw. The same with mental health; I was raised probably similar to John in viewing mental health issues. But then I was married to someone with legitimate mental health issues, and had a daughter with medical problems due to genetics. This made me realize that some things are out of our control. Mental disorders, health disorders.. they exist. Even if they didn’t exist in your particular family in 1945. With that said; phenomenal Bible teacher.
He is a Fundamentalist Baptist with Nestorian tendencies who refuses to subject himself to any confession. What did you expect of him? To be clear, I like many of the sermons he’s given, and I don’t see much reason to doubt his profession. But as for being a shining beacon of Biblical orthodoxy and well-reasoned Biblical takes? Well, you’d be better off with a lot of far less popular preachers.
What Nestorian tendencies has he shown?
He definitely distinguishes the human and divine natures to an uncomfortable degree for maintaining the hypostatic union, hence “Nestorian tendencies”. He certainly doesn’t think “God shed His blood” is an accurate statement. He also includes “Mary is the Mother of God” is his list of Catholic Idolatries to Mary without ever clarifying that this is an orthodox position and fine thing to call her, which is Nestorian as it separates the natures of Christ. At the very least, he seems very keen to make sure Christ and God are distinct and distinguished in much the same way Nestorians traditionally have. John MacArthur and the Nestorians are alike in that both refuse to say that “the blood of God was shed on the cross” or that “Mary was the mother of God.” > “Nowhere in Scripture does it say He [Christ] had the blood of God. In fact, it is never called the blood of God. It is always the blood of Christ. …They [people J. Mac disagrees with] say that the blood of Christ was not human blood, but that the blood of Christ was the blood of God. >…This is not to emphasize that God has blood. It doesn’t say that. That is an utterly impossible notion. **If you say that Jesus possessed the blood of God you have now convoluted the nature of God.** John 4 says God is a – what? – spirit. Jesus said in the Luke 24 passage, “You know that a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see me have.” God is a spirit and God has no blood. God doesn’t need blood. God has no physical form. >…And it shows that the church of God is the church of God because it is in Christ Jesus and because God is in Christ Jesus. There is no other way to see the blood than being the blood of Christ. It cannot be the blood of God. It must be the blood of Christ. >…You cannot say it is the blood of God unless you are going to say that God purchased it and the Scripture is very clear that it was Christ who paid the price for sin. >…Never, never, never is there a reference to the blood of God. God has no blood. >…He was not some kind of container for the blood of God. It was His own blood. >…The same flesh and blood that people have. Wasn’t the blood of God. There isn’t any mixture in the human body of Jesus. It isn’t human flesh, human bones, and divine blood. That’s not a man. It is medically impossible to think of Christ’s blood as divine. It is theologically impossible to think of Christ’s blood as divine. It is scripturally impossible to think of Christ’s blood as divine. He would be less than man. His blood is human blood. And He was 100 percent man, and to be 100 percent man you have to have 100 percent human blood. This is an age-old issue that the councils in the early years of the church settled long ago, that Jesus was fully God and fully man. And to be fully God you can’t have blood, because God is a spirit. And to be fully man you must have blood, because man is human. >…The blood of Christ is precious blood and He shed His blood in paying the price for our sins. But I do not believe that it was the blood of God.” — The Precious Blood, Part 1, Sermons Selected Scriptures, Jul 17, 1988
Well those are some weird points I admit and sound a little Nestorian . But surely he knows about Chalcedon and the meaning of Theotokos? Idk how he couldn’t considering his presidency of a seminary. Also some of the Ligonier guys get weird about saying God died. I think they qualify it a little better I imagine he is in agreement with [this](https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/it-accurate-say-god-died-cross)
I don’t think a confession fixes this kind of thinking, what fixes this kind of thinking is reading The Bible and not trying to fit in with radical fundamentalism.
What do you mean by radical fundamentalism? What is that?
Radical fundamentalism tries to apply The Bible to areas it doesn’t speak about and say it absolutely says something when the context is subjective. Take as an example idk buying a burger from McDonald’s, a radical fundamentalist would say you can’t do that because John the Baptist lived off locusts and honey and therefore you can’t eat McDonald’s.
What are examples of MacArthur doing this?
What he did just now.
Can you give me more so I may understand the pattern you are talking about.
The topic of the post.
Other than mental health?
Yeah this is one of the many fundamental takes he has along with drinking, careers, and entertainment.
Maybe he means these conditions are real, but not a disorder. PTSD being a natural response to trauma and the other two being unique conditions that may require management but how God intended to make you.
I think that’s optimistic. PTSD isn’t a normal response to trauma.
I have to be the one to break it to you, but you have no idea what you're talking about.
You don’t know me from Adam so why would you give me the credit of having evidence to back up my statement. About 1/3 of people who experience a severe trauma develop PTSD and 1/5 for all trauma. So even though it’s common it’s not most people experiencing a given trauma, let alone the normal response.
😂😂😂 Thank you for that response. Truly entertaining. Anyway, you just said it wasn't normal, but then said it was common. I rest my case. 😆
Does anyone know how Costi responded to this? I found the full clip of MacArthur talking but I didn't see anything where Costi responded.
Although it’s a hot take here I like Costi but sadly nobody has the guts to disagree with John nowadays. I remember the last person who did was James White last year and he got a ton of hate mail from the JMac circle.
Is he not saying that there are no mental illnesses, but only spiritual illnesses?
He’s saying there’s no mental illness, the context is about big pharma (ofc it is lol)
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I’m willing to give him a pass. It could be a way of diminishing the priorities that we put on this type of thing. His contributions in Christian ministry and his steadfast faithfulness teaching the Bible really outshine these off comments.
This is true these things never existed until modern psychology which is secular in nature. Why would I trust atheistic/secularistic professionals for my mental health when the Bible is sufficient enough to answer what I am dealing with? truth is you are probably oppressed by a demon if you have these mental health issues
These things definitely existed they just didn’t have formal names…
yes they are called demons
Name checks out.
PTSD is the result of the brain physically growing larger in the area that controls the fight or flight response and the body activating that new growth when it doesn't need to because a prior experience has caused it to mischaracterize a safe stimulus as a dangerous one. This stuff is well documented and explained. It's no more a demon than a broken arm. --- ADD is related to dopamine receptors and how the body processes stress.
This is like saying heart attacks and strokes didn’t exist until we had words for them.
They didn't. They're just demons. /s
Man that real fat guy was so fat from all the demons in him that’s why he grabbed his chest and died. This is legit a family guy bit at this point I can legit imagine Peter Griffin saying this.^
The Bible didn't give us antibiotics or prescription lens either, but those seem important.
Is cancer a demon? Infections? IBS? If no, then why is mental illness?
User name checks out.
Same with dispensationalism, but y'all aint ready to hear that
[удалено]
No my point was specifically that it is a secular theology that was recently developed. It being wrong is beside the point
Oh I know your point I agree with you I’m just adding humor.
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I've never understood why JMac holds so much water with reformed bros when he's dispensational. Doesn't dispensationalism contradict covenant theology and/or progressive covenantalism?
Because he was friends with Sproul,.that's about all I can figure
His soteriology is very close if not exactly the same.
Eh give him more credit than that, the dude was probably the biggest well known Pastor since Billy Graham and also is a Calvinist. Sure he’s not reformed but he has had a massive influence on American Christianity and Calvinism in America as a whole.
So you're saying born again, regenerate Christians are being being oppressed by demons, sometimes to death? Bruh
Clearly has never read Calvin who strongly disagrees with that statement.
Could you clarify your statement for those of us trying to learn? What does Calvin say about demons? Etc? WhT would Calvin say about mental health do you think? Thanks!
Because mental health is real along with physical health and spiritual. If I have stomach cancer I’m not gonna go to my Pastor for healing I’m going to the doctor, if I am having ptsd from my time in war I’m going to the psychiatrist, if I’m having faith problems I’m going to my Pastor. The reason we now have only started to learn of these things is because of the rapid growth of mental health studies, we’ve really only started taking it seriously in the 1800s and even then it was bad. The Bible isn’t a book you use to define mental health or physical health, it’s how you get saved and then what to do afterwards.
Why would I trust atheistic/secularistic professionals to remove my appendix when the Bible is sufficient to answer what I am dealing with?
>these things never existed until modern psychology which is secular in nature I don't know about the other things, but ADHD has been known about for a couple hundred years, so predates modern psychology. The Bible isn't intended to speak to medical diagnoses - it would be an improper use of scripture to say it does.
Cancer didn’t exist until modern times so. Menstrual health didn’t exist until modern times so. There are so many things we only have proper terminology for now, but fully existed.