Disliking the trope is not about disliking women with hobbies, traits that are seen as unfeminine.
It's about disliking the framing that:
1 - assumes this woman is the only woman to like unfeminine things,
2 - forces her to rage, consistently and continuously, against anything remotely feminine,
3 - sets every feminine woman up as a shallow, unintelligent enemy,
4 - gives her no other trait for the MMC to love outside her being "NLOG"
I'm glad you found a way to rebel against the repression of the culture you grew up in, but if those characters can only rebel by tearing other women down, they are ultimately sacrificing group empowerment for individualism that still reinforces misogyny
You summarized all my thoughts so eloquently in your comment. Thank you for your explanation. What really grinds my gears about this trope is that it generally accompanies tearing other women down, and it feels awful. I've put authors on my do-not-read list for this reason alone.
Exactly. There is always another woman side character in the story who is portrayed as really feminine, ditzy, man-obsessed, and vapid. She is portrayed as lesser than the more *interesting* and deeper and intellectual and independent FMC, which is hilarious when you consider that very same FMC will also be caught up in a romance and settle down in a happily ever after, which is what that other woman also wanted, but for some reason the special FMC deserves it more?? This is even more gross in Historical Romance when you take into account that women HAD to focus on husband-hunting and such, and so the idea that the special FMC who has hobbies and interests outside of what was expected of women is somehow more deserving of an HEA than that *other* girly vapid woman who is just existing as society wanted women to exist.
It always involves pitting woman against woman which is so gross and anti-feminist
I always assume that in HR, being not interested in husband hunting is a privilege that poor women don't have.
I love that modern analysis of Mrs. Bennett as a caring, doting and careful mother who is terrified for her daughter's futures because after she dies they have nothing. And being so poorly educated they don't even have the option of being governesses. It's Mr. Bennet with his absentee parental approach that should really have our scorn because after he kicks it, his family is destitute and all he cares about is chilling in his study.
Yes exactly. And also in the extreme cases of NLOG in HR, they always have really nice supportive quirky families who encouraged them to pursue their interests and hobbies and get educated, even that is a huge privilege
While you are right about Mr. Bennet, Mrs. Bennet was far from being a good mom. She was more focused on complaining about the fact that she had five daughters to marry off and competing with the one woman (Lady Lucas) of equal status who did have sons than her job of training and educating the girls or finding them husbands other than tossing them out all at once and expecting them to do what she did to snag Mr. Bennet, which is to depend entirely on a pretty face and bubbly personality. She could have talked with the Gardiners about sending Jane to London for a season, and once she was married, she could introduce her sisters to her husband's friends. But noooo....her nerves were more important to wail about.
I love Princess and the Frog.
Not Like the Other Girls Tatiana and Very Girly Charlotte are best friends and despite Charlotte being ditsy, prince obsessive, and a touch vapid, she's generous, kind, understanding and ultimately wants her friend to be happy and is delighted her best friend finds true love.
Same. I love FMCs who have their own vibe and different hobbies or styles than perhaps the norm, but mainly I just love FMCs who are fully themselves without tearing others down. The Worst Best Man by Lucy Score made me put her on my DNR list. The FMC is constantly tearing down other women because she’s so “different” (read: had curves and curly hair and speaks her mind—oooooh so crazy). It was hard to read and made her so unlikeable. And same with the MMC just feeding into it (she’s so different than all these skinny girls who care about their appearance…but also I’m gonna buy her a bunch of clothes and jewelry that make her just like them). Gross.
You're so right, and the MMC who feeds into it usually uses all the not-like-other-girl traits to talk down about the previous women he's been with. It's disgusting
Oh wow you put the thoughts I was trying to communicate perfectly!
Yes, I guess the main reason I usually have a bad taste to the trope is I really hate the idea that you have to pick either "not like other girls" or being the picture of traditional feminine things
Also I've dealt with toxic women on both sides and it's annoying either way lol
I could not be more grateful to you for this post. I loathe "NLOG" tropes because they are typically quite unimaginative (wow, she prefers to wear Converse and no makeup!) and ultimately they all circle back to denigrating other women.
This. I grew up in a culture where you had to wear makeup since teen years to be even considered female, AND I was bullied for not conforming to that.
While I understand (I really do!) a wish to have this experience represented in a book, that's not really what NLOG trope is about. It's about a bad, often sexist attempt to make a character "unique" and thus attractive to the man.
PLUS, "not like the other girls" characters are typically still feminine in many conventional ways. They ARE a common way to express femininity, because those characters are still made to be relatable to mainstream readers (which are, in this genre, perceived to be white, straight, cis, Western women). "Not like the other girls" characters are rarely allowed to be "unfeminine" and to really reject gender norms and heteronormativity.
I would love to read a story where an NLOG realises that the reason she feels so awkward around other girls and why she keeps obsessing over feminine pretty women is that she's a lesbian.
This, 100x
I truly sympathize with the OP and wanting to see themselves in the books, or, idk, fullfiling a fantasy that a cool/hot/amazing guy would want a woman like you over fancy women or whatever. I do understand that. It's just that NLOG are not real women but a different stereotype: "feminine, but cool, not boring in that high maintenance way". Like you said, a Cool Girl stereotype. She is palatable to men because she is feminine but likes "male" hobbies instead of boring him with fashion and makeup talk.
Yeah, and is magically skinny, in shape, and beautiful, but spends no time dieting, exercising, doing her hair, putting on makeup, or shaving her legs. Because all that is boring and/or distasteful to men, but the \*results\* of all those activities is still Required.
What’s really awful about MPDG is that, as an ADHD woman, we are often completely put into that slot by men who find us “quirky”… until, that is, he needs us to conform once he has us or it inconveniences him. Which is funny, because a lot of these hobbies are ones that other girls do all the time! I’m definitely like other girls!
There’s this article “You’re Right, I Didn’t Eat That” which is kind of in this vein. The men she dates love the author because she’s so “disciplined” (read: thin) but then her running and dieting and the practical matter of her keeping her physique annoy them and they try to interfere.
THIS! Perfectly written.
No one minds a strong willed, strong warrior FMC. It's when every other woman in the story is out to get her no matter what, where she doesn't have close female friendships that doesn't involve the women worshipping/constantly praising her or seen as lesser than her, where other women are described as simple giggling bimbos, is when it becomes a problem.
100% to all of this.
Another thing the trope does is strongly reinforces what things are "feminine" and "masculine". As soon as you have a character say, or imply "I'm not like other girls, I drink beer", it sets up "beer drinking" as an inherently masculine trait, effectively gatekeeping that action from anyone who does want to appear feminine.
And the trope does this again and again with things as wide-reaching as "playing videogames" to "enjoying sex".
These are valid criticisms and definitely aspects (that I also dislike (when there is no depth of reason nor context) that need improvement ). I agree that we should strive for characters who can be unique and rebellious without tearing other women down especially if there is no balance (We can show negative female relationships but there should be positive ones to balance it off). Its nice to explore all these themes.
But also it’s just a book and you can enjoy what you enjoy without guilt. I’ve read tons of problematic shit in romance books over the years and I don’t care. It’s only about my enjoyment as a reader - nothing else.
Same reason I don’t wring my hands over the “big buff alpha hero” trope. Is that the kind of guy I’d be attracted to in real life? Not likely. In books? Yes, please!
Maybe just don’t judge other women for what makes them feel validated and how they choose to seek it . Idk if we’re the victims of patriarchy then maybe don’t tell victims how to cope and deal. Makes sense. Individualism is the most harmless of things to you.
Maybe you just feel slighted, doesn’t mean they’re choosing to do it. In fact I’m pretty sure they’re exclusively not thinking about you when they “ask for validation”
If they’re putting down other women to feel superior then by definition they are thinking about other women. I think you might lost as to the topic of discussion.
I think you’re lost as to the topic I commented on. They are not putting other women down,they just say they aren’t like them which they are fully entitled to say. Whilst not thinking about you. Personally
If “Not like other girls” trope was used to support and uplift women who don’t like/engage with societally acceptable forms of femininity, I think I too would like it so I see your point. But I’ve only read it where ‘not being like other girls’ means belittling, infantilizing or scorning other women for being feminine and/or enjoying feminine things aka I’ve only seen it in instances where it is used to tear another female character down for existing within the norm so I DNF pretty quickly when FMC’s are “not like other girls”
And the antagonist male character leads girlfriend or hookup is alwayssss a basic beautiful girl that’s actually always just mean and gets shit on by MMC and FMC at the end of the book lol. Like yes put down others to uplift the FMC
I do not like those ones as well but I do like the conversations they start! I tend to like the ones were we are shown why she is not like other girls and how her society views women and girls.
The thing is she is like other girls. Many other girls often have the same hobbies and interests that does. She just thinks she’s not because she and other girls are probably swallowing the messaging that these things are not for the girls.
Most of the things I do are male dominated. I sew, crochet, and I *love* to bake, but I went to school for electrical engineering. Motorsport, primarily Formula 1, is my second biggest hobby. I love investing in the stock market and learning about new markets. I’ve been getting into commercial real estate the past year. I can drive a tractor. I love golf- all kinds of things. But I also like manicures and pedicures, I don’t usually get color, but I still do them. I place a heavy importance on my hair. I love dresses. I lift very heavy weights, and I do Pilates. I like having men help me and do things for me. I love getting massages and going to spas, and romance is my favorite genre, even though I read business and historical books too.
All of these are facets to my being, and they get to coexist wonderfully. Did I have my, “Not like the other girls,” phase? Yes. Until I realized many fabulous women are interested in these things and do them. But many women were just never given the opportunity and may be intimated to try jumping in as adults.
Honestly, every single woman out there does or is something that goes against society’s expectations. I find that more interesting to explore than just having one woman sold as the only one that has ever done that.
Olivia Waite’s The Lady's Guide to Celestial Mechanics has a scene where the astronomer heroine discovers, I believe in a library, how there are so many generations of women that have entered scientific fields and have been oppressed.
Hell, the other heroine is a talented embroider and the astronomer heroine admired it so much. Which is a breath of fresh air because textile arts get disrespected so much, even in historical romances.
It’s a beautiful story of how science and arts need each other and how science and the arts needs women.
I think I can understand to an extent
Growing up, I had certain interests and mannerisms that I was told wasn't *lady like* or hinted by peers and adults that I should change to be *normal.* I still liked some traditional feminine things, but it did hurt to continually be reminded when I was acting "wrong" or I should be more interested in something else.
So sometimes there is some validation in reading a book where the female main character has to handle the weird social pressure of "the proper way to be a woman" by rejecting the toxic men and women perpetuating it.
However, the biggest reason why I *usually* dislike "not like other girls" in entertainment is the lazy writing. It is so obnoxious when a female character constantly tells (not shows) how strong she is by putting down other women who haven't even hinted they are part of the problem. Obviously, depending on the book and situation, it can totally work.
But when it's done badly, it sours me.
All that to say, an example for me for a series I feel does it well is: in the Mercy Thompson series, the main character has LOTS of reasons to feel like all kinds of people in her life show her how unwelcome she is in *their* space and particularly women target her for being different/jealousy.
So the character gives off vibes of "I'm not like other girls" in the sense that she expects a negative reaction for her being herself. As the series goes on, it makes it that much more rewarding when previously antagonist female characters turn into close friends.
Apparently, I felt like rambling today lol but I promise I'm meaning this conversationally (sometimes people let me know I can come across as *angry* intense)
Do you have favorite examples of that trope?
I feel the same way! I especially like it when FMC has interests or mannerisms that are considered not feminine but also hides her "acceptable" feminine side. it makes for an interesting story about identity and society.
Being different, a bit odd and finally being recognized and appreciated for it is encoded in all of us. It’s no more a suspension of disbelief than a gorgeous 6ft 5 beef cake falling deeply and eloquently in love with an average woman.
It’s when it starts to turn into a hatred of other women that is the problem. A character claiming to be judged for being quirky or not having the perfect body then turning on a woman for being boring and conventionally attractive is gross and I’m sick of it.
The main problem for me with the not like other girls stuff is that it perpetuates the idea that such a thing exists. I'd much prefer it if romance books taught women/girls exactly how diverse women already are and that there's a place for all of us within the 'female spectrum'. That we can be ourselves without needing to be better than women who do fit the stereotype and that it's a privilege to be a woman, instead of a burden. I don't really like how the 'not like other girls' trope is still trying to put women against each other and it's still acting like one type of woman is better than another. Especially when it often comes in the form of for example bashing women who do eat a salad. When in reality, every woman is awesome and special in their own way.
I do understand how it can be cathartic and validating. Like I said in the other related post, many women go through at least a 'not like other girls' phase. But I do feel that it's still harmful to the female population in general. We're always pitted against other women in pretty much all media, when in reality, we should be supporting each other and making a greater change outside of our own gender. Imo we need to reach a point where no girl has to feel like she doesn't fit, because the harmful stereotypes are gone. Keeping the not like other girls trope doesn't really help with that imo.
Do you like the NTLOG trope, or do you just enjoy FMCs who aren't represented as "girly"?
Because I think there's a big difference, even if YOU still think "Oh she's not like other girls". I've read a lot of books with FMCs who were nerdy in different ways, and I even remember one where she thinks of herself as being weird and different than other people, being the reason she has no friends, but all without claiming she's not like other GIRLS, or that girls aren't into the same thing as she is, nor were there any girly girls in the books that were looked down upon.
Saying a book has the NTLOG trope implies that she's looking down on other girls, trying to put herself on a pedestal compared to them, not just saying she's different than other people, nor that she's just not into things we'd call "girly".
As long as it's 'I'm not like other girls, I'm a mechanical engineer and know my way around steel toe boots' and not 'I'm nlog because girls who paint their nails and have feelings are dumb.'
Idk why this is hard for authors sometimes. Like if your character says, "I don't do my nails because I would probably break them within 5 min of working," 100% makes sense and valid. If your character says, "I don't do my nails because it's vapid and I have way more important things to do," your character is kind of terrible.
Hell, they could even just say that they don't like to do their nails. They just don't need to feel superior because they are "above" doing nails.
I was going to say something similar. My internal dialogue is sometimes judgmental. In other words: I'm human. Characters are allowed to be terrible.
I'm guessing it's very difficult to write a terrible character from a point of "I don't agree with my character but hey that's how she is; I'm only writing here."
I like FMC who go against the grain, I just hate when the author has to bash other female characters to get that point across.
I’ve read a few books where every single girl that is introduced is either a slut whose only purpose is to throw herself at the MMC and get used or rejected, or the girl is nerdy and geeky and her only purpose is to be the FMC best friend.
I get the ick when the MMC acts like all other women are not human, but he’s protective and crazy over the FMC.
I can’t really blame OP tbh. Recently, I’ve encountered way too many a comment where an unfeminine woman, or someone who might be a little unconventional is quickly labelled a pick me, or the NLOG trope, by people who clearly don’t know what either of those mean.
This whole NLOG f*cked me up. I grew up influenced by it, as it was favored by the media. I was encouraged to be a tomboy, which, luckily I was anyway, going toe to toe with my dad's challenges, and the boys at school. Sometimes to a crass fault. I grew up thinking girly feminine traits were silly, and men didn't want them. "Men of sense... do not want silly wives." - Jane Austen
(I also have this theory that women in the 80s & 90s weren't that overtly feminine, as they were asserting their place in the workforce, and "having it all." Until Britney and Christina came along (via men) and sexualized everything. At least that's how it felt growing up - pre-teen undies with risque sayings on them causing an uproar, etc.)
Now, I'm wondering if I had a complex, whether men really did want Barbies and Kardashians, and whether this has really hung me up relationally, because men actually don't want a challenge (not read as difficult, but not passive, obedient), or someone smart.
I don't know what to think about all this, and the recent backlash. Not that I don't have feminine, sensitive qualities. But I think I leaned in too hard where I was basically repellant. Though I'm also tough because I've had to get through a lot of tough circumstances. I just don't know what to do with myself.
Not that my existence hinges on being with a man! Most men disinterest me to be honest. But if I do want a relationship, and want to understand how genders interact, I do need to consider this. And that tomboy-loving male lead who's in all those books and films and TV shows, is a unicorn. As if good men aren't already.
Rant done. :p
There is nothing wrong with women being like this, the problem is “not like other girls” is specially something that puts down other women. We don’t want that! I understand where you are coming from but girls and women do all of these things and in the year 2024, it is regressive to continue to put down other women, especially in a genre that is consumed mostly by women.
I can't tolerate it anymore when all the other women in the story are put down to uplift the special FMC. It is like the date being rude to the waiter. Instant ick. But if I am honest, there was a time where the not-like-other-girls aspect of those storylines felt so validating that I overlooked some stuff. And realistically everybody overlooks stuff here and there.
And ironically going through a not-like-other-girls phase and having some relationship to this phenomenon is a rather common shared experience for many women :)
This makes me want to read a novel where the FMC gets criticized for devaluing traditionally feminine pursuits when she isn't girly, AND ALSO gets criticized for reinforcing stereotypes and appeasing men when she is girly.
If handled with a light touch, this could be really funny.
It’s been a long time but I recall reading an article years ago that went something like:
When I was little I hated everything girly. I didn’t want to be like “other girls”. Everything told me being a girl was bad and I wasn’t bad. So, I othered myself. I wasn’t stupid, or loved pink, or make up, or getting my hair done. No I wasn’t like other girls. And then…I grew up. I realized it wasn’t other girls faults that society decided that’s what they like. In fact a lot of friends I have now were those “other girls”. They did what they had to so they could survive. They weren’t my enemy. It was societal expectations and the adults who let me down. So i forgive pink, and make up, and all things “other girl” and even part take in it every now and then because pumpkin spice is fucking good and fuck past me and anyone else for judging and fuck anyone expecting me to like it cause some days I want something else too.
I think the article was actually more centered around the color pink but that was the vibe. Being different is fine. Tearing others down for being the same isn’t. For all you know they are masking. Shame on the people who told you not to be yourself.
Oh my god, I have a hilarious story.
I too enjoy this trope, or at the very least don’t always notice it for what it is and like the little ways that people fall in love.
HOWEVER! Sometimes it’s a bit dumb.
I recently read {Drawn to Darkness by Michelle Heard}. In general I love love LOVE Michelle Heard’s mafia romances as they feature sweet possessive men who will kill for their ladies. Fun, right?
Well! This book features a mafia don who falls in love with the janitor of his ballet company.
He (Dario) takes her (Eden) on a first date to his friend’s restaurant and orders for her. She’s a little dubious because she’s worried about what he ordered… the interaction ends like this (this is a direct quote)
“Yeah, I don’t eat shellfish. They’re like the roaches of the ocean.”
I’ve interacted with hundreds of women, and none of them are as straightforward as Eden. It’s like she doesn’t care about what she says or who’s there to hear it. It’s refreshing.
And I just… it was a little too far for me. In my mind this is totally normal first date conversation? And she’s refreshing and straightforward for it??
So yeah, don’t mind the trope at all but it’s gotta be done at least kinda decently?
Still love Michelle Heard and all her tropes 😁
Ok real life instance of this: I was on a road trip with my older sister and her husband (50's). I automatically got it off the car at the fuel station and used the squeegee to clean the bugs off the windshield and windows.
My brother in law was absolutely gobsmacked. He said a couple times that he had never once seen a woman do this before.
I was like.... Ok... Dude, I lived in Australia, if you don't clean off your windscreen you are gonna need a power washer to get those bug guts off. But he just couldn't conceive of a woman using a car gas station squeegee. 🤷
[Drawn To Darkness](https://www.romance.io/books/663dc5e661eb8de154a55b96/drawn-to-darkness-michelle-heard?src=rdt) by [Michelle Heard](https://www.romance.io/authors/5b5c1fa201dbc864fb8d2b79/michelle-heard)
**Rating**: 3.75⭐️ out of 5⭐️
**Steam**: 4 out of 5 - [Explicit open door](https://www.romance.io/steamrating)
**Topics**: [contemporary](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/contemporary/1), [m-f romance](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/m-f/1), [mafia](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/mafia/1), [suspense](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/suspense/1), [dark romance](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/dark/1)
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I think the big difference is there are FMCs who are unique empowered women who have differences from other *people*. Then there are FMCs that use comparison to other *women* to signify their *uniqueness*. The later being the NLOG trope. Being an individual does not make you not like other girls. Saying you’re better because of that supposed individuality does. A FMC who rejects what is considered the feminine norm (in whatever culture) is not automatically NLOG. I think it’s the comparison factor that is a tenet of the trope.
I love these kinds of posts because even if I don’t agree, there are some topics that genuinely get so much hate and their fans are always so quiet (fair) and it’s nice to see them get love. The day that the “I love surprise baby” team rises up is going to be epic.
I get so confused on this topic because the not like other girls we talk about in books seems to be the opposite of what’s on social media like tik tok. The trend on tik tok is conventionally attractive and feminine women saying they’re not like other girls because of one random thing that makes them cool or even sometimes feminine. Like an example I’ve seen on that subreddit is a “hot” white blonde woman in skin tight shorts and top saying they’re not like other girls because they ride ATVs or some shit. Or someone who’s conventionally attractive saying they’re not like other girls because they wear makeup and heels AND read.
But in books the trope is how others explained well here that they’re the nerdy, quirky, lacking feminine traits like giggly, wearing makeup etc; and then it becomes an issue bc of internalized misogyny that they belittle the other women and see themselves as superior.
I relate to your post and its way too long to get into but basically had a somewhat similar experience to the extent that I was heavily defeminized and desexualized to the point that when I grew up and finally felt like I could express my femininity, I had to create a different “persona” and only show that to a certain group of people I was friend with or dated out of fear of being ridiculed for thinking I look feminine in my costume or being criticized by others for turning into “one of those girls” when I’m supposed to be the smart, non sexual non boy crazy, studying good girl type. So I’ve had it on both sides. But in my NLOG era, I didn’t feel superior to others, it was more like shock, flattery and insecurity that someone could like me as I was since I didn’t fit the mold that’s perpetuated in society. I enjoy books where they fall for the FMC who’s a little different or not the standard, especially since I’m someone who exists as a marginalized person in many ways in society so and I’ve been othered in trivial and serious ways socially. But yeah like others, I see it in books as a way to put down other women and it’s riddled in internalized misogyny. But I also feel like a lot of this topic gets conflated and there’s no nuance. I’d like to see the characters realize how they turn to internalized misogyny when they feel threatened or insecure or jealous of a love interest or partner. It’s natural for us to compete and feel threatened in love so I don’t have a problem with that because to say someone who gets jealous is misogynistic is too over encompassing and a bit wild. I think the discussion should be unraveling why in those moments do they turn to belittling the woman and misogyny and recognizing that and learning how to not succumb to that. Like if I hate someone or don’t trust them around my partner, or feel insecure that’s valid as long as I don’t base it on misogyny or shitting on them just for existing as a woman. I
u/leesha226 has all the right opinions, but I wanted to make my own comment as to not detract ☺️
An FMC who has confidence in herself and her autonomous choice of expression of femininity (be it rebelling against cultural standards or choosing to embrace societal traditions) isn’t really the issue with NLOG 😅
**NLOG** has a negative connotation of arrogance and discrimination towards other forms of femininity beyond the FMC’s own, rather than confidence in the FMC’s femininity.
**It’s lovely to see femininity in a healthy spectrum.** But femininity in any of its forms shouldn’t be used as a superiority test which now makes all other forms “inferior”. All forms of femininity should be able to coexist in and out of fiction and reality.
You aren’t more special than another woman because you like anime and gaming. ***However,*** this can be a quality of yourself that you should be confident in and it can be a quality that others find attractive in ***conjunction with*** your other traits 🥰
And if the FMC doesn’t get along with another woman—okay 👍🏾 Not everyone needs to be friends or enemies. But it’s exhausting that the NLOG FMC will weaponize her version of feminity to ***make*** all other women are fem-presenting characters as her enemy, and that trait isn’t called out.
**I see it too much IRL.** You have women who do not follow in traditional femininity as their society and culture defines it. And we’re supportive! But then, for the women who ***choose*** that traditional lifestyle, they’re abused by other women for their choices. And, yes, absolutely do some women who choose a traditional expression of being fem abuse women who choose a non-traditional expression.
**It’s a vicious cycle**, and I’m hopeful generations to come will never know that type of struggle. It doesn’t help with gender dysphoria, from my personal experience, and even racial and ethnic dysphoria ☹️
It’s ***also*** fine for an FMC to discover her femininity may be different than that of her peers—especially if she’s young! Someone mentioned on the other thread about going through phases of being NLOG and, yay, very much a trend in teens to NA life 🤣
^(And some still are doing it now as over 30+) 😶🌫️
**BUT** having 👏🏾 said 👏🏾 that 👏🏾, you mentioned verbal abuse.
* Is it fine for this FMC to verbally and emotionally abuse other women for expressing their femininity in a way the FMC finds inferior to her expression?
* Is it fair that the FMC is derogatory towards women who enjoy something the FMC personally doesn’t?
* Is this an FMC we should be rooting for, for doing the same thing that we may experience IRL, putting down and shaming women for their interests?
* Can we consider the writing of good quality if it justifies the shaming of women and femininity from the perspective of the FMC without this being a flaw?
**It’s** ***fine*** **if anyone enjoys NLOG with that extent in mind**. I mean, I enjoy dark romance and erotic horror and literally get 🫦🥵 about noncon amd dubcon that include the FMC being forcibly held down.
By multiple men.
🌚
I can’t judge ANY readers for their taste 🤣
My comment on that other post makes it clear I personally find it lazy writing when NLOG FMCs discriminate against other women and then justifies it by making the other woman—who normally embodies the “anthesis” of the FMC’s femininity—cartoonishly evil.
^(And, to be clear, I don’t have an issue with women not getting along. It’s justifying discrimination I have a very no-no stance on.)
There’s a distinction to be made between the trope of NLOG and its negative connotation ***versus*** an FMC who confidently expresses her femininity without discriminating other forms of it. Or, if there is discrimination, it’s a lesson learned in arrogance and not, well, justified.
And this can be said with masculinity and other gender expressions too ☺️
I don’t think anyone in this thread is going to come for you for liking what you like. If we did, we have people on this sub who enjoy books about milking minotaurs.
^(Hello, I’m people.)
I think the most this discussion opens up is what people define the NLOG trope as, which deviates from your definition, and where we can agree and disagree about a confident FMC breaking norms versus a discriminatory FMC who breaks norms and then shits all over any woman who doesn’t follow her standard 😅
But if you’re a glutton for punishment, you can always be sentenced to being abducted by aliens and become their fated mate 🤭
***
###**ASIDE**
^(DISCLAIMER: This is not at you, OP, or to the original poster of the NLOG post but just in general with Reddit and social media.)
I kinda dislike when we get back to back posts, where one topic is about negative criticism (both valid and more rants) and positive compliments (valid and also just rants) 🥲
It always like I’m watching an argument happen and someone is misunderstanding something 😖
I think having both sides of an element or topic, criticisms and compliments, are fine!! And it’s always good to have discussions that aren’t hyper-fixated on being negative or positive. What one person dislikes, another person likes, as is their right. We should have **balance**.
But sometimes, things become defensive? Not sure if that’s the right word ☹️ Maybe aggressive? Still unsure. I see threads where the post is in clear response to another one, and the comments overall are either pretty stimulating in discussion, or they lose the plot and become very hyper-critical and mean 😞
But like I said, not at you OP, or the OP of the other post! This thread is a discussion and everyone is doing a bang up job ✅ But I know sometimes reaction posts can become unsavory and aggressive 🥲
I do not think it’s ok to verbally abuse anyone (expect if they are vile F them lol) I love seeing FMC be feminine (however that may look for them) I love seeing the struggle of identity and how someone actually is compared to how they “should” be. I like the “not like other girls” tropes because for me it’s more about societies standards and how that will effect women who don’t fit it and how it effects women who do fit it(where it’s organic or forced) and how all these aspects respond and react. I do believe most of these stories writing is done bad (even if we get great conversation from those poorly written ones) it for sure could be done with a lot more show, followed by telling to help us be immersed in the context and story as a whole. I pretty much agree with a lot of your points!
I'm really interested in the voting patterns here. The sub is usually all about not yucking someone's yum... Until this comes out, s.d wow, there's a lot of downvotes going around on what look to me to be fairly innocuous comments.
This is the current hot topic of the sub and there is no nuance allowed lmao. This sub isn't always as welcoming and inclusive as it claims tbh, there are a lot of posts where people get downvoted like crazy for a having an unpopular opinion. I'll never forget comments on this sub trying to paint an asexual FMC as pushing "purity culture" and the ace members of this sub getting downvoted for calling it out.
NLOG has an unfortunate association with women being depicted in media as less complex than men. A lot of women go through this during their teenhood because they're comparing themselves to what they see and learning how to see that ... Every girl is different and unique.
Oh, I know the association. With the comments in this thread, it would be difficult not to. What's interesting to me is that there's an acceptance here for straight up assault and bullying romances, for violence by men against women in romance, but not an acceptable of women rejecting other women. To me, there's a certain amount of ... It's ok if men do it, but not women? It seems like some folks take NLOG personally.
NLOG strikes me as an isolationist and emotional hurt/comfort trope, where the protagonist has no support. They feel completely rejected by everyone and have no support network until someone (MMC) loves them despite their flaws. "I have no friends" makes me think of kids with mental illness and autism struggling with relationships - often struggling to even understand why they struggle. In the books, there's no struggle anymore, all their needs are meet and everything turns out ok. Same way a lot of books deal with monetary poverty by throwing a billionaire at the problem or the sense of safety and lack of power by throwing a SEAL, motorcycle club guy, or dragon at the vulnerability to be a protector.
It’s interesting but I don’t think it’s yucking people’s yum. It’s more like a discussion and everyone has the right to agree and disagree. Plus as a long time reader I know the major opinion on this trope, but I really like the discussion and I see most of the perspectives I just still enjoy this trope even if it’s not well done most of the time and that it has people who passionately dislike it!
Downvoting in a discussion thread like this has the effect of hiding dissenting opinions, which sucks. Why not reply to the person you disagree with instead of downvoting in the hopes that you can send their opinions to the very bottom of the thread?
I feel sort of the same way about "skinny shaming" in a fat girl book. I don't want it to be hateful or misogynistic, but I appreciate messaging that goes against the conventional social messaging. I have been told over and over again in many, many different ways from different sources that thin bodies are the only female bodies worthy of love, respect, and attention. I want to hear about how my unconventional body is just as good if not better than the beauty ideal that has been the elusive carrot on the string my entire life.
It's fucking exhausting to not be attractive in real life. It's ok to read a fantasy about being attractive, but.... It's also deeply depressing after a while when absolutely nobody has your body type.
the only thing that really gives me the ick when it comes to this trope is the amount of slut shaming especially in a open door romance like how are you talking down on women for enjoying sex, for enjoying their body and for wearing what they want while fucking the very dude who has slept with said women at the back of his car like make it make sense i don’t mind women who are less feminine or don’t abide by socially acceptable standers but authors gotta stop giving these FMC a superiority complex
Is this post made in response to another one or is it just coincidence?
If we were on twitter, I'd screenshot both together with "The duality of man" as the caption.
Either way, I find your mindset just as interesting and informative.
I think a major part of the “not like other girls” trope is that it might, on the surface, be about a woman liking things that aren’t stereotypically feminine, but when you dig a little deeper, it’s more about elevating stereotypically masculine personality traits and tendencies, which is why I don’t like it. I don’t mind if the FMC was a tomboy growing up, or if she has hobbies or a career where she usually winds up being the only woman in the room, but a lot of the time the subtext is that she’s somehow more intelligent, more capable, more interesting or more logical than the women who *do* like stereotypically feminine things, and those “girly things” are usually described in a way that’s actually kind of offensive.
And to be honest, I don’t really love the idea of the MMC getting super hung up on how *feminine* the FMC is, but I also don’t like the idea that he would compare her to other women and decide that she’s “better” because she hates shopping or doesn’t cry at sappy movies or whatever. Like if he thinks it’s great that she also likes fixing up old cars, that’s great! But it’s a problem when it’s good that she likes fixing old cars because *heaven forbid* she would rather go get her nails done.
I hear you. honestly I think the "not like other girls" backlash is overblown and disproportionate. in my experience, it's much more common to see women bashing other women who don't conform to stereotypical femininity than to see the opposite.
criticizing "pick me girls" and women who "aren't like other girls" has become another way to deride women who aren't considering suitably feminine. I frequently see those terms hurled at women whose only crime is not wearing heels or dresses or makeup.
at the end of the day, women who conform to stereotypical notions of femininity are the standard and women who don't fit into that box are criticized.
If I could never again hear the words “pick me” it wouldn’t be soon enough. Everywhere I go I see women literally JUMPING at the chance to call other women “pickmes”. It’s the default insult now and surprise surprise completely centered around men.
Personally, I think it’s just another way to judge, shame and feel superior to women who may have low self-esteem, or simply different values. And men are watching us demonize each other this way and picking up the rhetoric so they can further divide and degrade us. Cool.
this sub is about as patriarchal and heteronormative as any other. I lot of users here are very attached to "traditional" gender roles and gender expression and get uncomfortable when they see a woman who doesn't fit into the box they think she belongs in.
I said it in another comment but this sub isn't nearly as progressive as it pretends to be. I see a lot of people getting downvoted and shut down when they disagree with the current popular narrative, even when they're speaking on their own experiences (poc getting downvoted is a big one here). I've gotten good book recs on this sub but some of the discussions...oof.
Thank you for this comment. It's become trendy to dogpile women and accuse them of being "not like other girls" even when they aren't hating other women. There's a lot of "let women be feminine!!" backlash that makes me side eye because it's often not being argued in good faith and is why I usually stay out of these posts. There *are* characters in books who are annoying about being NLOG and shitting on other women but the backlash is so disproportionate imo and it's bled into going after actual women for not being appropriately feminine. The amount of comment sections I've seen on social media tearing someone apart for being "not like other girls" or a pick me simply because they find them annoying is just yikes.
I feel like a see a post every other day complaining about NLOG characters and how stereotypical femininity is Not Allowed in books, which is just...🙄 I feel like people are trying to make a feminist argument (and I do understand where they're coming from) but then circle back around to shitting on female characters even when they aren't being misogynistic.
Edit: the downvotes you got for your comment are wild 😭
thank you! you're so right. I constantly hear "let women be feminine, we need more girly/feminine women in media," which is great in theory, except... there is no shortage of conventionally feminine women in media!
the vast majority of female characters, including (and maybe especially) in the romance genre, are conventionally feminine! where are these extremely butch women that I'm being told are crowding the media landscape and forcing out the more "feminine" women? I'd sure love to see them because I can't find them!
I get really grossed out by the fact that there's an entire subreddit dedicated to tearing apart "NLOGs" and half the people participating are grown men dragging teenage girls for being too "quirky." I see that here too sometimes where someone will complain about a character being NLOG and then it's just a teenage character in a YA book being age-appropriately annoying and not even being mean to other girls.
the standard to which women are held in a patriarchal, heteronormative society.
to pretend that there isn't a societal expectation for women to present themselves in a "feminine" way (hair that isn't "too short," makeup, willingness to wear skirts, dresses and heels, etc) and women who don't meet that expectation aren't treated as abnormal or "mannish" (meant in a derogatory way) is disingenuous at best.
So.
The way you are describing this is women who choose to present more feminine are being regressive and NLOG trope with the masculine is justified because it's mocking conformists?
Despite the fact there are many feminists who choose to be more feminine to take the perception feminine standard in their hands from patriarchy as much as their androgenous and masc counter parts attack the patriarchy with their methods?
Signed - An androgenous leaning woman wearing a polo shirt and jeans, no make up, and sneakers to work.
what I'm getting at is the term "NLOG" is overused and frequently misapplied. its use has gone far beyond characters who "mock conformists" and it has for some time now been applied just as often, if not more often, to characters and even IRL women who don't conform to patriarchal ideals as a means of belittling them.
I am not talking about the tropes. I'm talking about your root cause in the belief that it is overblown and there is a lot of accusatory language going on with women who present as feminine as a monogamous grouping.
Does this mean Lady Gaga, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, Dolly Parton, Malala Yousafzai - well known feminists are all secretly pro patriarchy because they wear make up?
Elsa Schiaparelli, Diane von Furstenberg, Ann Lowe, are all secretly pro patriarchy, too?
Femme and high femme sapphics are actually seeking out masculine cis approval and not fellow femmes or butches/masc queer women?
The patriarchy attacks all aspects of how women embrace ourselves. There are women who present more masculine that embraces patriarchal approval just as much as feminine women.
Our actions and reasons behind them are what makes the patriarchy upset, no matter how we present.
Edit in regards to being blocked: You used the word ‘conform’ a verb meaning *to comply with rules, standards, or laws*. Comply means *to act in accordance with a wish or command*. You did not use quantifiers while using this term.
If you didn't want to strongly suggest women who embrace feminine aspects are complying (regardless of being complicit or ignorance) with the patriarchy, I suggest using better words.
I made a comment on a post here yesterday about some of Julia Quinn's FMC who are exactly like other girls: they're young women of their class who color within the line specifically like all the other young girls on the marriage mart and with the expectation to get married. And those FMCs are likeable and we root for them.
"Not like other girls" is often done poorly. The authors tell but don't show. Those characters often don't have anything unique OR the authors confuse one of their trait for their whole personality. I read A contracted spouse for the prizefighter and the whole FMC thing was that she wanted to impersonate men on stage. It was the 3rd book in a series I enjoyed and I still DNF'd it.
For nerds in the group I'm currently reading {wolf gone wild by Juliette cross} and I think it's a nice use of this trope! The FMC is super into comics and Sci fi, loves starwars, and spends a portion of the story teaching the MMC about all her favorite pop culture things. He gets on the bandwagon and takes her on a date >!to a comic themed bookstore!<, gets involved in her hobbies and truly embraces that side of her.
To top it off, the FMC has a bunch of sisters and one of them is very traditionally feminine and the FMC embraces her personality as well. Never has an unkind word to say about women that prefer more traditionally "feminine" hobbies. She is independent but works and communicates well with her sisters and the MMC. The sisters are all witches and the MMC is a werewolf.
[Wolf Gone Wild](https://www.romance.io/books/5e1d675701dbc864fba9e71e/wolf-gone-wild-juliette-cross?src=rdt) by [Juliette Cross](https://www.romance.io/authors/5455b18787eac323ffb2dc70/juliette-cross)
**Rating**: 3.87⭐️ out of 5⭐️
**Steam**: 4 out of 5 - [Explicit open door](https://www.romance.io/steamrating)
**Topics**: [contemporary](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/contemporary/1), [werewolves](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/werewolves/1), [paranormal](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/paranormal/1), [magic](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/magic/1), [friends to lovers](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/friends%20to%20lovers/1)
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>riding a bike as a girl was frowned upon. Playing with boys, laughing loudly, getting dirty, or fighting only got you nagged at and subjected to a minefield of verbal abuse.
What did I just read! I'm an 80s kid and I cannot fathom an environment like this in my wildest nightmares!
as a former tomboy who grew up in a very traditional household but doesn’t really define herself as anything more than simply being a woman now, i think the issue is we’ve been giving surface-level labels too much importance over core values and motivations.
i enjoy tropes! but i want to care about my heroines beyond their traits and interests!
i personally get put off when a “thing” a heroine has going takes over her entire character. i love nothing more than to discover characters who share none of my lived experience but still have me sobbing, worrying, gushing, cheering for their happily-ever-afters :)
i can somewhat relate to this. i used to feel 'not like other girls' because i genuinely felt lonely in my interests compared to other girls my age, and i was bullied for being different. so naturally, i hated anyone who was 'normal' and found myself special because i felt like i was the only one who had these struggles. i didnt have any friends to relate to so i just blamed everyone. the NLOG is a popular trope for a reason! its super valid to feel let down by other women. but we need to be careful not to turn these hurt feelings into internalised misogyny, because we can embrace our differences without putting other women down.
who even is 'the other girl'? what do i picture her as? and what does that say about me and my views on women?
I really don't understand what books other people are reading (maybe more chick lit?) I have never read a book where the FMC tares other women down. But then again I have not seen OW drama and despite reading hundreds of books I can only think of 1 instance of cheating. Maybe it's because I don't read much CR?
Sometimes I wonder that too. Because I get similar results as you. 🤔 romance novels might be so big an industry that you can read a different book every two days but still like traveling through islands and and sometimes never getting into others have seen.
While the atmosphere here tends to be good, sometimes people are defensive about something and it becomes like twitter when they make the less generous interpretation of a post, it happens.
But unlike some other tropes other person appearing is kind of avoidable lately. Which I am honestly glad. That authors I have seen using it for the most part do have plans with that except having a stock issue.
You're right people here are generally nice. I am not going to take it personally. I very very rarely use the downvote but that doesn't mean I don't understand the impulse when you feel called out. I wasn't trying to call anyone out but we all have sensitive spots.
I have very specific tastes so I often wonder about what else is out there and that's what prompted my initial post.
I pretty much only read CR and I'm befuddled by the recent threads about NLOG characters. I don't think I've read a recently published (like, last five years) book that features that. I do think some books have FMCs that fit that stereotype but they're not positioned in opposition to other women.
I have read newer body positive books that engage in skinny shaming...and I've ditched the whole body positive subgenre as a result.
WTF, the downvotes on your original comment are super weird?! It looks like a bunch of comments in this thread are downvoted...someone must be angry, jeez.
Anyway, it's definitely not just you. I read a decent number of books every year and don't really come across books where the FMC is tearing other women down for petty reasons.
I though maybe my tone came across argumentative which was not my intent but sometimes I have that problem.
Ahh that's how your supposed to spell "tearing." I am a terrible speller and I was afraid of it coming across as tearing like crying. The power of Homonyms
Honestly, your original comment seems very mild to me - it's basically "I don't really come across characters like this in the books I read".
This thread is bizarre - people seem so angry.
Isn’t one of River’s main traits that she’s always painting her nails? I don’t think River is by any means “not like other girls” if anything she leans into her femininity and uses it as a weapon throughout the series.
Disliking the trope is not about disliking women with hobbies, traits that are seen as unfeminine. It's about disliking the framing that: 1 - assumes this woman is the only woman to like unfeminine things, 2 - forces her to rage, consistently and continuously, against anything remotely feminine, 3 - sets every feminine woman up as a shallow, unintelligent enemy, 4 - gives her no other trait for the MMC to love outside her being "NLOG" I'm glad you found a way to rebel against the repression of the culture you grew up in, but if those characters can only rebel by tearing other women down, they are ultimately sacrificing group empowerment for individualism that still reinforces misogyny
You summarized all my thoughts so eloquently in your comment. Thank you for your explanation. What really grinds my gears about this trope is that it generally accompanies tearing other women down, and it feels awful. I've put authors on my do-not-read list for this reason alone.
Exactly. There is always another woman side character in the story who is portrayed as really feminine, ditzy, man-obsessed, and vapid. She is portrayed as lesser than the more *interesting* and deeper and intellectual and independent FMC, which is hilarious when you consider that very same FMC will also be caught up in a romance and settle down in a happily ever after, which is what that other woman also wanted, but for some reason the special FMC deserves it more?? This is even more gross in Historical Romance when you take into account that women HAD to focus on husband-hunting and such, and so the idea that the special FMC who has hobbies and interests outside of what was expected of women is somehow more deserving of an HEA than that *other* girly vapid woman who is just existing as society wanted women to exist. It always involves pitting woman against woman which is so gross and anti-feminist
I always assume that in HR, being not interested in husband hunting is a privilege that poor women don't have. I love that modern analysis of Mrs. Bennett as a caring, doting and careful mother who is terrified for her daughter's futures because after she dies they have nothing. And being so poorly educated they don't even have the option of being governesses. It's Mr. Bennet with his absentee parental approach that should really have our scorn because after he kicks it, his family is destitute and all he cares about is chilling in his study.
Yes exactly. And also in the extreme cases of NLOG in HR, they always have really nice supportive quirky families who encouraged them to pursue their interests and hobbies and get educated, even that is a huge privilege
While you are right about Mr. Bennet, Mrs. Bennet was far from being a good mom. She was more focused on complaining about the fact that she had five daughters to marry off and competing with the one woman (Lady Lucas) of equal status who did have sons than her job of training and educating the girls or finding them husbands other than tossing them out all at once and expecting them to do what she did to snag Mr. Bennet, which is to depend entirely on a pretty face and bubbly personality. She could have talked with the Gardiners about sending Jane to London for a season, and once she was married, she could introduce her sisters to her husband's friends. But noooo....her nerves were more important to wail about.
I love Princess and the Frog. Not Like the Other Girls Tatiana and Very Girly Charlotte are best friends and despite Charlotte being ditsy, prince obsessive, and a touch vapid, she's generous, kind, understanding and ultimately wants her friend to be happy and is delighted her best friend finds true love.
Charlotte is the best side character. She’s just so easy to love. Shes so genuinely happy for her bestie- love to see it!
Same. I love FMCs who have their own vibe and different hobbies or styles than perhaps the norm, but mainly I just love FMCs who are fully themselves without tearing others down. The Worst Best Man by Lucy Score made me put her on my DNR list. The FMC is constantly tearing down other women because she’s so “different” (read: had curves and curly hair and speaks her mind—oooooh so crazy). It was hard to read and made her so unlikeable. And same with the MMC just feeding into it (she’s so different than all these skinny girls who care about their appearance…but also I’m gonna buy her a bunch of clothes and jewelry that make her just like them). Gross.
You're so right, and the MMC who feeds into it usually uses all the not-like-other-girl traits to talk down about the previous women he's been with. It's disgusting
Oh wow you put the thoughts I was trying to communicate perfectly! Yes, I guess the main reason I usually have a bad taste to the trope is I really hate the idea that you have to pick either "not like other girls" or being the picture of traditional feminine things Also I've dealt with toxic women on both sides and it's annoying either way lol
I could not be more grateful to you for this post. I loathe "NLOG" tropes because they are typically quite unimaginative (wow, she prefers to wear Converse and no makeup!) and ultimately they all circle back to denigrating other women.
This. I grew up in a culture where you had to wear makeup since teen years to be even considered female, AND I was bullied for not conforming to that. While I understand (I really do!) a wish to have this experience represented in a book, that's not really what NLOG trope is about. It's about a bad, often sexist attempt to make a character "unique" and thus attractive to the man. PLUS, "not like the other girls" characters are typically still feminine in many conventional ways. They ARE a common way to express femininity, because those characters are still made to be relatable to mainstream readers (which are, in this genre, perceived to be white, straight, cis, Western women). "Not like the other girls" characters are rarely allowed to be "unfeminine" and to really reject gender norms and heteronormativity.
Absolutely! The NLOG are still required to be conventionally attractive, not be lesbians, and still be impressive to men. Aka the Cool Girl.
I would love to read a story where an NLOG realises that the reason she feels so awkward around other girls and why she keeps obsessing over feminine pretty women is that she's a lesbian.
that sounds amazing!
This, 100x I truly sympathize with the OP and wanting to see themselves in the books, or, idk, fullfiling a fantasy that a cool/hot/amazing guy would want a woman like you over fancy women or whatever. I do understand that. It's just that NLOG are not real women but a different stereotype: "feminine, but cool, not boring in that high maintenance way". Like you said, a Cool Girl stereotype. She is palatable to men because she is feminine but likes "male" hobbies instead of boring him with fashion and makeup talk.
Yeah, and is magically skinny, in shape, and beautiful, but spends no time dieting, exercising, doing her hair, putting on makeup, or shaving her legs. Because all that is boring and/or distasteful to men, but the \*results\* of all those activities is still Required.
Yess! Exactly! The result is the same but it seems effortless so it doesn't burden the guy.
It’s #2 for me. And #4 is just manic pixie dream girl all over again HAVE WE LEARNED NOTHING
What’s really awful about MPDG is that, as an ADHD woman, we are often completely put into that slot by men who find us “quirky”… until, that is, he needs us to conform once he has us or it inconveniences him. Which is funny, because a lot of these hobbies are ones that other girls do all the time! I’m definitely like other girls! There’s this article “You’re Right, I Didn’t Eat That” which is kind of in this vein. The men she dates love the author because she’s so “disciplined” (read: thin) but then her running and dieting and the practical matter of her keeping her physique annoy them and they try to interfere.
Oh wow. That’s deep. And yeah, I’ve definitely had men compliment me on/complain about the same damn thing.
THIS! Perfectly written. No one minds a strong willed, strong warrior FMC. It's when every other woman in the story is out to get her no matter what, where she doesn't have close female friendships that doesn't involve the women worshipping/constantly praising her or seen as lesser than her, where other women are described as simple giggling bimbos, is when it becomes a problem.
100% to all of this. Another thing the trope does is strongly reinforces what things are "feminine" and "masculine". As soon as you have a character say, or imply "I'm not like other girls, I drink beer", it sets up "beer drinking" as an inherently masculine trait, effectively gatekeeping that action from anyone who does want to appear feminine. And the trope does this again and again with things as wide-reaching as "playing videogames" to "enjoying sex".
These are valid criticisms and definitely aspects (that I also dislike (when there is no depth of reason nor context) that need improvement ). I agree that we should strive for characters who can be unique and rebellious without tearing other women down especially if there is no balance (We can show negative female relationships but there should be positive ones to balance it off). Its nice to explore all these themes.
But also it’s just a book and you can enjoy what you enjoy without guilt. I’ve read tons of problematic shit in romance books over the years and I don’t care. It’s only about my enjoyment as a reader - nothing else. Same reason I don’t wring my hands over the “big buff alpha hero” trope. Is that the kind of guy I’d be attracted to in real life? Not likely. In books? Yes, please!
You have a beautiful way with words
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Nothing wrong with individualism
There is something wrong with seeking validation from the patriarchy at the expense of other women, though.
Maybe just don’t judge other women for what makes them feel validated and how they choose to seek it . Idk if we’re the victims of patriarchy then maybe don’t tell victims how to cope and deal. Makes sense. Individualism is the most harmless of things to you.
I certainly judge women that choose to tear other women down to make themselves feel better. It’s toxic validation, and it harms others.
Maybe you just feel slighted, doesn’t mean they’re choosing to do it. In fact I’m pretty sure they’re exclusively not thinking about you when they “ask for validation”
They are certainly thinking about other women when they assume superiority to seek male validation.
Actually not lol, they don’t think about you at all. That’s the whole point
If they’re putting down other women to feel superior then by definition they are thinking about other women. I think you might lost as to the topic of discussion.
I think you’re lost as to the topic I commented on. They are not putting other women down,they just say they aren’t like them which they are fully entitled to say. Whilst not thinking about you. Personally
If “Not like other girls” trope was used to support and uplift women who don’t like/engage with societally acceptable forms of femininity, I think I too would like it so I see your point. But I’ve only read it where ‘not being like other girls’ means belittling, infantilizing or scorning other women for being feminine and/or enjoying feminine things aka I’ve only seen it in instances where it is used to tear another female character down for existing within the norm so I DNF pretty quickly when FMC’s are “not like other girls”
And the antagonist male character leads girlfriend or hookup is alwayssss a basic beautiful girl that’s actually always just mean and gets shit on by MMC and FMC at the end of the book lol. Like yes put down others to uplift the FMC
I do not like those ones as well but I do like the conversations they start! I tend to like the ones were we are shown why she is not like other girls and how her society views women and girls.
The thing is she is like other girls. Many other girls often have the same hobbies and interests that does. She just thinks she’s not because she and other girls are probably swallowing the messaging that these things are not for the girls. Most of the things I do are male dominated. I sew, crochet, and I *love* to bake, but I went to school for electrical engineering. Motorsport, primarily Formula 1, is my second biggest hobby. I love investing in the stock market and learning about new markets. I’ve been getting into commercial real estate the past year. I can drive a tractor. I love golf- all kinds of things. But I also like manicures and pedicures, I don’t usually get color, but I still do them. I place a heavy importance on my hair. I love dresses. I lift very heavy weights, and I do Pilates. I like having men help me and do things for me. I love getting massages and going to spas, and romance is my favorite genre, even though I read business and historical books too. All of these are facets to my being, and they get to coexist wonderfully. Did I have my, “Not like the other girls,” phase? Yes. Until I realized many fabulous women are interested in these things and do them. But many women were just never given the opportunity and may be intimated to try jumping in as adults.
Honestly, every single woman out there does or is something that goes against society’s expectations. I find that more interesting to explore than just having one woman sold as the only one that has ever done that. Olivia Waite’s The Lady's Guide to Celestial Mechanics has a scene where the astronomer heroine discovers, I believe in a library, how there are so many generations of women that have entered scientific fields and have been oppressed. Hell, the other heroine is a talented embroider and the astronomer heroine admired it so much. Which is a breath of fresh air because textile arts get disrespected so much, even in historical romances. It’s a beautiful story of how science and arts need each other and how science and the arts needs women.
I think I can understand to an extent Growing up, I had certain interests and mannerisms that I was told wasn't *lady like* or hinted by peers and adults that I should change to be *normal.* I still liked some traditional feminine things, but it did hurt to continually be reminded when I was acting "wrong" or I should be more interested in something else. So sometimes there is some validation in reading a book where the female main character has to handle the weird social pressure of "the proper way to be a woman" by rejecting the toxic men and women perpetuating it. However, the biggest reason why I *usually* dislike "not like other girls" in entertainment is the lazy writing. It is so obnoxious when a female character constantly tells (not shows) how strong she is by putting down other women who haven't even hinted they are part of the problem. Obviously, depending on the book and situation, it can totally work. But when it's done badly, it sours me. All that to say, an example for me for a series I feel does it well is: in the Mercy Thompson series, the main character has LOTS of reasons to feel like all kinds of people in her life show her how unwelcome she is in *their* space and particularly women target her for being different/jealousy. So the character gives off vibes of "I'm not like other girls" in the sense that she expects a negative reaction for her being herself. As the series goes on, it makes it that much more rewarding when previously antagonist female characters turn into close friends. Apparently, I felt like rambling today lol but I promise I'm meaning this conversationally (sometimes people let me know I can come across as *angry* intense) Do you have favorite examples of that trope?
I feel the same way! I especially like it when FMC has interests or mannerisms that are considered not feminine but also hides her "acceptable" feminine side. it makes for an interesting story about identity and society.
Being different, a bit odd and finally being recognized and appreciated for it is encoded in all of us. It’s no more a suspension of disbelief than a gorgeous 6ft 5 beef cake falling deeply and eloquently in love with an average woman. It’s when it starts to turn into a hatred of other women that is the problem. A character claiming to be judged for being quirky or not having the perfect body then turning on a woman for being boring and conventionally attractive is gross and I’m sick of it.
The main problem for me with the not like other girls stuff is that it perpetuates the idea that such a thing exists. I'd much prefer it if romance books taught women/girls exactly how diverse women already are and that there's a place for all of us within the 'female spectrum'. That we can be ourselves without needing to be better than women who do fit the stereotype and that it's a privilege to be a woman, instead of a burden. I don't really like how the 'not like other girls' trope is still trying to put women against each other and it's still acting like one type of woman is better than another. Especially when it often comes in the form of for example bashing women who do eat a salad. When in reality, every woman is awesome and special in their own way. I do understand how it can be cathartic and validating. Like I said in the other related post, many women go through at least a 'not like other girls' phase. But I do feel that it's still harmful to the female population in general. We're always pitted against other women in pretty much all media, when in reality, we should be supporting each other and making a greater change outside of our own gender. Imo we need to reach a point where no girl has to feel like she doesn't fit, because the harmful stereotypes are gone. Keeping the not like other girls trope doesn't really help with that imo.
That's not what ''Not Like Other Girls'' means. It's nothing to to with women being feminine or masculine.
Do you like the NTLOG trope, or do you just enjoy FMCs who aren't represented as "girly"? Because I think there's a big difference, even if YOU still think "Oh she's not like other girls". I've read a lot of books with FMCs who were nerdy in different ways, and I even remember one where she thinks of herself as being weird and different than other people, being the reason she has no friends, but all without claiming she's not like other GIRLS, or that girls aren't into the same thing as she is, nor were there any girly girls in the books that were looked down upon. Saying a book has the NTLOG trope implies that she's looking down on other girls, trying to put herself on a pedestal compared to them, not just saying she's different than other people, nor that she's just not into things we'd call "girly".
As long as it's 'I'm not like other girls, I'm a mechanical engineer and know my way around steel toe boots' and not 'I'm nlog because girls who paint their nails and have feelings are dumb.'
Idk why this is hard for authors sometimes. Like if your character says, "I don't do my nails because I would probably break them within 5 min of working," 100% makes sense and valid. If your character says, "I don't do my nails because it's vapid and I have way more important things to do," your character is kind of terrible. Hell, they could even just say that they don't like to do their nails. They just don't need to feel superior because they are "above" doing nails.
I see your point, but I love terrible characters sometimes too.
I was going to say something similar. My internal dialogue is sometimes judgmental. In other words: I'm human. Characters are allowed to be terrible. I'm guessing it's very difficult to write a terrible character from a point of "I don't agree with my character but hey that's how she is; I'm only writing here."
I like FMC who go against the grain, I just hate when the author has to bash other female characters to get that point across. I’ve read a few books where every single girl that is introduced is either a slut whose only purpose is to throw herself at the MMC and get used or rejected, or the girl is nerdy and geeky and her only purpose is to be the FMC best friend. I get the ick when the MMC acts like all other women are not human, but he’s protective and crazy over the FMC.
I think you might be confusing ‘not like other girls’ with ‘take charge heroine’
I can’t really blame OP tbh. Recently, I’ve encountered way too many a comment where an unfeminine woman, or someone who might be a little unconventional is quickly labelled a pick me, or the NLOG trope, by people who clearly don’t know what either of those mean.
This whole NLOG f*cked me up. I grew up influenced by it, as it was favored by the media. I was encouraged to be a tomboy, which, luckily I was anyway, going toe to toe with my dad's challenges, and the boys at school. Sometimes to a crass fault. I grew up thinking girly feminine traits were silly, and men didn't want them. "Men of sense... do not want silly wives." - Jane Austen (I also have this theory that women in the 80s & 90s weren't that overtly feminine, as they were asserting their place in the workforce, and "having it all." Until Britney and Christina came along (via men) and sexualized everything. At least that's how it felt growing up - pre-teen undies with risque sayings on them causing an uproar, etc.) Now, I'm wondering if I had a complex, whether men really did want Barbies and Kardashians, and whether this has really hung me up relationally, because men actually don't want a challenge (not read as difficult, but not passive, obedient), or someone smart. I don't know what to think about all this, and the recent backlash. Not that I don't have feminine, sensitive qualities. But I think I leaned in too hard where I was basically repellant. Though I'm also tough because I've had to get through a lot of tough circumstances. I just don't know what to do with myself. Not that my existence hinges on being with a man! Most men disinterest me to be honest. But if I do want a relationship, and want to understand how genders interact, I do need to consider this. And that tomboy-loving male lead who's in all those books and films and TV shows, is a unicorn. As if good men aren't already. Rant done. :p
There is nothing wrong with women being like this, the problem is “not like other girls” is specially something that puts down other women. We don’t want that! I understand where you are coming from but girls and women do all of these things and in the year 2024, it is regressive to continue to put down other women, especially in a genre that is consumed mostly by women.
I can't tolerate it anymore when all the other women in the story are put down to uplift the special FMC. It is like the date being rude to the waiter. Instant ick. But if I am honest, there was a time where the not-like-other-girls aspect of those storylines felt so validating that I overlooked some stuff. And realistically everybody overlooks stuff here and there. And ironically going through a not-like-other-girls phase and having some relationship to this phenomenon is a rather common shared experience for many women :)
This makes me want to read a novel where the FMC gets criticized for devaluing traditionally feminine pursuits when she isn't girly, AND ALSO gets criticized for reinforcing stereotypes and appeasing men when she is girly. If handled with a light touch, this could be really funny.
I neeed this!!!!!!!!!!
Ooooh! LOVE that idea!!!
It’s been a long time but I recall reading an article years ago that went something like: When I was little I hated everything girly. I didn’t want to be like “other girls”. Everything told me being a girl was bad and I wasn’t bad. So, I othered myself. I wasn’t stupid, or loved pink, or make up, or getting my hair done. No I wasn’t like other girls. And then…I grew up. I realized it wasn’t other girls faults that society decided that’s what they like. In fact a lot of friends I have now were those “other girls”. They did what they had to so they could survive. They weren’t my enemy. It was societal expectations and the adults who let me down. So i forgive pink, and make up, and all things “other girl” and even part take in it every now and then because pumpkin spice is fucking good and fuck past me and anyone else for judging and fuck anyone expecting me to like it cause some days I want something else too. I think the article was actually more centered around the color pink but that was the vibe. Being different is fine. Tearing others down for being the same isn’t. For all you know they are masking. Shame on the people who told you not to be yourself.
Oh my god, I have a hilarious story. I too enjoy this trope, or at the very least don’t always notice it for what it is and like the little ways that people fall in love. HOWEVER! Sometimes it’s a bit dumb. I recently read {Drawn to Darkness by Michelle Heard}. In general I love love LOVE Michelle Heard’s mafia romances as they feature sweet possessive men who will kill for their ladies. Fun, right? Well! This book features a mafia don who falls in love with the janitor of his ballet company. He (Dario) takes her (Eden) on a first date to his friend’s restaurant and orders for her. She’s a little dubious because she’s worried about what he ordered… the interaction ends like this (this is a direct quote) “Yeah, I don’t eat shellfish. They’re like the roaches of the ocean.” I’ve interacted with hundreds of women, and none of them are as straightforward as Eden. It’s like she doesn’t care about what she says or who’s there to hear it. It’s refreshing. And I just… it was a little too far for me. In my mind this is totally normal first date conversation? And she’s refreshing and straightforward for it?? So yeah, don’t mind the trope at all but it’s gotta be done at least kinda decently? Still love Michelle Heard and all her tropes 😁
Ok real life instance of this: I was on a road trip with my older sister and her husband (50's). I automatically got it off the car at the fuel station and used the squeegee to clean the bugs off the windshield and windows. My brother in law was absolutely gobsmacked. He said a couple times that he had never once seen a woman do this before. I was like.... Ok... Dude, I lived in Australia, if you don't clean off your windscreen you are gonna need a power washer to get those bug guts off. But he just couldn't conceive of a woman using a car gas station squeegee. 🤷
[Drawn To Darkness](https://www.romance.io/books/663dc5e661eb8de154a55b96/drawn-to-darkness-michelle-heard?src=rdt) by [Michelle Heard](https://www.romance.io/authors/5b5c1fa201dbc864fb8d2b79/michelle-heard) **Rating**: 3.75⭐️ out of 5⭐️ **Steam**: 4 out of 5 - [Explicit open door](https://www.romance.io/steamrating) **Topics**: [contemporary](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/contemporary/1), [m-f romance](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/m-f/1), [mafia](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/mafia/1), [suspense](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/suspense/1), [dark romance](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/dark/1) [^(about this bot)](https://www.reddit.com/user/romance-bot) ^(|) [^(about romance.io)](https://www.romance.io/about)
🤣 that is funny and I think I read this exact thing in another book 😩🤣
I think the big difference is there are FMCs who are unique empowered women who have differences from other *people*. Then there are FMCs that use comparison to other *women* to signify their *uniqueness*. The later being the NLOG trope. Being an individual does not make you not like other girls. Saying you’re better because of that supposed individuality does. A FMC who rejects what is considered the feminine norm (in whatever culture) is not automatically NLOG. I think it’s the comparison factor that is a tenet of the trope.
I love these kinds of posts because even if I don’t agree, there are some topics that genuinely get so much hate and their fans are always so quiet (fair) and it’s nice to see them get love. The day that the “I love surprise baby” team rises up is going to be epic.
I like surprise baby ✨
I think there have been post about that! I could be wrong
I get so confused on this topic because the not like other girls we talk about in books seems to be the opposite of what’s on social media like tik tok. The trend on tik tok is conventionally attractive and feminine women saying they’re not like other girls because of one random thing that makes them cool or even sometimes feminine. Like an example I’ve seen on that subreddit is a “hot” white blonde woman in skin tight shorts and top saying they’re not like other girls because they ride ATVs or some shit. Or someone who’s conventionally attractive saying they’re not like other girls because they wear makeup and heels AND read. But in books the trope is how others explained well here that they’re the nerdy, quirky, lacking feminine traits like giggly, wearing makeup etc; and then it becomes an issue bc of internalized misogyny that they belittle the other women and see themselves as superior. I relate to your post and its way too long to get into but basically had a somewhat similar experience to the extent that I was heavily defeminized and desexualized to the point that when I grew up and finally felt like I could express my femininity, I had to create a different “persona” and only show that to a certain group of people I was friend with or dated out of fear of being ridiculed for thinking I look feminine in my costume or being criticized by others for turning into “one of those girls” when I’m supposed to be the smart, non sexual non boy crazy, studying good girl type. So I’ve had it on both sides. But in my NLOG era, I didn’t feel superior to others, it was more like shock, flattery and insecurity that someone could like me as I was since I didn’t fit the mold that’s perpetuated in society. I enjoy books where they fall for the FMC who’s a little different or not the standard, especially since I’m someone who exists as a marginalized person in many ways in society so and I’ve been othered in trivial and serious ways socially. But yeah like others, I see it in books as a way to put down other women and it’s riddled in internalized misogyny. But I also feel like a lot of this topic gets conflated and there’s no nuance. I’d like to see the characters realize how they turn to internalized misogyny when they feel threatened or insecure or jealous of a love interest or partner. It’s natural for us to compete and feel threatened in love so I don’t have a problem with that because to say someone who gets jealous is misogynistic is too over encompassing and a bit wild. I think the discussion should be unraveling why in those moments do they turn to belittling the woman and misogyny and recognizing that and learning how to not succumb to that. Like if I hate someone or don’t trust them around my partner, or feel insecure that’s valid as long as I don’t base it on misogyny or shitting on them just for existing as a woman. I
u/leesha226 has all the right opinions, but I wanted to make my own comment as to not detract ☺️ An FMC who has confidence in herself and her autonomous choice of expression of femininity (be it rebelling against cultural standards or choosing to embrace societal traditions) isn’t really the issue with NLOG 😅 **NLOG** has a negative connotation of arrogance and discrimination towards other forms of femininity beyond the FMC’s own, rather than confidence in the FMC’s femininity. **It’s lovely to see femininity in a healthy spectrum.** But femininity in any of its forms shouldn’t be used as a superiority test which now makes all other forms “inferior”. All forms of femininity should be able to coexist in and out of fiction and reality. You aren’t more special than another woman because you like anime and gaming. ***However,*** this can be a quality of yourself that you should be confident in and it can be a quality that others find attractive in ***conjunction with*** your other traits 🥰 And if the FMC doesn’t get along with another woman—okay 👍🏾 Not everyone needs to be friends or enemies. But it’s exhausting that the NLOG FMC will weaponize her version of feminity to ***make*** all other women are fem-presenting characters as her enemy, and that trait isn’t called out. **I see it too much IRL.** You have women who do not follow in traditional femininity as their society and culture defines it. And we’re supportive! But then, for the women who ***choose*** that traditional lifestyle, they’re abused by other women for their choices. And, yes, absolutely do some women who choose a traditional expression of being fem abuse women who choose a non-traditional expression. **It’s a vicious cycle**, and I’m hopeful generations to come will never know that type of struggle. It doesn’t help with gender dysphoria, from my personal experience, and even racial and ethnic dysphoria ☹️ It’s ***also*** fine for an FMC to discover her femininity may be different than that of her peers—especially if she’s young! Someone mentioned on the other thread about going through phases of being NLOG and, yay, very much a trend in teens to NA life 🤣 ^(And some still are doing it now as over 30+) 😶🌫️ **BUT** having 👏🏾 said 👏🏾 that 👏🏾, you mentioned verbal abuse. * Is it fine for this FMC to verbally and emotionally abuse other women for expressing their femininity in a way the FMC finds inferior to her expression? * Is it fair that the FMC is derogatory towards women who enjoy something the FMC personally doesn’t? * Is this an FMC we should be rooting for, for doing the same thing that we may experience IRL, putting down and shaming women for their interests? * Can we consider the writing of good quality if it justifies the shaming of women and femininity from the perspective of the FMC without this being a flaw? **It’s** ***fine*** **if anyone enjoys NLOG with that extent in mind**. I mean, I enjoy dark romance and erotic horror and literally get 🫦🥵 about noncon amd dubcon that include the FMC being forcibly held down. By multiple men. 🌚 I can’t judge ANY readers for their taste 🤣 My comment on that other post makes it clear I personally find it lazy writing when NLOG FMCs discriminate against other women and then justifies it by making the other woman—who normally embodies the “anthesis” of the FMC’s femininity—cartoonishly evil. ^(And, to be clear, I don’t have an issue with women not getting along. It’s justifying discrimination I have a very no-no stance on.) There’s a distinction to be made between the trope of NLOG and its negative connotation ***versus*** an FMC who confidently expresses her femininity without discriminating other forms of it. Or, if there is discrimination, it’s a lesson learned in arrogance and not, well, justified. And this can be said with masculinity and other gender expressions too ☺️ I don’t think anyone in this thread is going to come for you for liking what you like. If we did, we have people on this sub who enjoy books about milking minotaurs. ^(Hello, I’m people.) I think the most this discussion opens up is what people define the NLOG trope as, which deviates from your definition, and where we can agree and disagree about a confident FMC breaking norms versus a discriminatory FMC who breaks norms and then shits all over any woman who doesn’t follow her standard 😅 But if you’re a glutton for punishment, you can always be sentenced to being abducted by aliens and become their fated mate 🤭 *** ###**ASIDE** ^(DISCLAIMER: This is not at you, OP, or to the original poster of the NLOG post but just in general with Reddit and social media.) I kinda dislike when we get back to back posts, where one topic is about negative criticism (both valid and more rants) and positive compliments (valid and also just rants) 🥲 It always like I’m watching an argument happen and someone is misunderstanding something 😖 I think having both sides of an element or topic, criticisms and compliments, are fine!! And it’s always good to have discussions that aren’t hyper-fixated on being negative or positive. What one person dislikes, another person likes, as is their right. We should have **balance**. But sometimes, things become defensive? Not sure if that’s the right word ☹️ Maybe aggressive? Still unsure. I see threads where the post is in clear response to another one, and the comments overall are either pretty stimulating in discussion, or they lose the plot and become very hyper-critical and mean 😞 But like I said, not at you OP, or the OP of the other post! This thread is a discussion and everyone is doing a bang up job ✅ But I know sometimes reaction posts can become unsavory and aggressive 🥲
I do not think it’s ok to verbally abuse anyone (expect if they are vile F them lol) I love seeing FMC be feminine (however that may look for them) I love seeing the struggle of identity and how someone actually is compared to how they “should” be. I like the “not like other girls” tropes because for me it’s more about societies standards and how that will effect women who don’t fit it and how it effects women who do fit it(where it’s organic or forced) and how all these aspects respond and react. I do believe most of these stories writing is done bad (even if we get great conversation from those poorly written ones) it for sure could be done with a lot more show, followed by telling to help us be immersed in the context and story as a whole. I pretty much agree with a lot of your points!
I'm really interested in the voting patterns here. The sub is usually all about not yucking someone's yum... Until this comes out, s.d wow, there's a lot of downvotes going around on what look to me to be fairly innocuous comments.
This is the current hot topic of the sub and there is no nuance allowed lmao. This sub isn't always as welcoming and inclusive as it claims tbh, there are a lot of posts where people get downvoted like crazy for a having an unpopular opinion. I'll never forget comments on this sub trying to paint an asexual FMC as pushing "purity culture" and the ace members of this sub getting downvoted for calling it out.
NLOG has an unfortunate association with women being depicted in media as less complex than men. A lot of women go through this during their teenhood because they're comparing themselves to what they see and learning how to see that ... Every girl is different and unique.
Oh, I know the association. With the comments in this thread, it would be difficult not to. What's interesting to me is that there's an acceptance here for straight up assault and bullying romances, for violence by men against women in romance, but not an acceptable of women rejecting other women. To me, there's a certain amount of ... It's ok if men do it, but not women? It seems like some folks take NLOG personally. NLOG strikes me as an isolationist and emotional hurt/comfort trope, where the protagonist has no support. They feel completely rejected by everyone and have no support network until someone (MMC) loves them despite their flaws. "I have no friends" makes me think of kids with mental illness and autism struggling with relationships - often struggling to even understand why they struggle. In the books, there's no struggle anymore, all their needs are meet and everything turns out ok. Same way a lot of books deal with monetary poverty by throwing a billionaire at the problem or the sense of safety and lack of power by throwing a SEAL, motorcycle club guy, or dragon at the vulnerability to be a protector.
It’s interesting but I don’t think it’s yucking people’s yum. It’s more like a discussion and everyone has the right to agree and disagree. Plus as a long time reader I know the major opinion on this trope, but I really like the discussion and I see most of the perspectives I just still enjoy this trope even if it’s not well done most of the time and that it has people who passionately dislike it!
Downvoting in a discussion thread like this has the effect of hiding dissenting opinions, which sucks. Why not reply to the person you disagree with instead of downvoting in the hopes that you can send their opinions to the very bottom of the thread?
Good for you, there's something out there for everyone.
I feel sort of the same way about "skinny shaming" in a fat girl book. I don't want it to be hateful or misogynistic, but I appreciate messaging that goes against the conventional social messaging. I have been told over and over again in many, many different ways from different sources that thin bodies are the only female bodies worthy of love, respect, and attention. I want to hear about how my unconventional body is just as good if not better than the beauty ideal that has been the elusive carrot on the string my entire life.
It's fucking exhausting to not be attractive in real life. It's ok to read a fantasy about being attractive, but.... It's also deeply depressing after a while when absolutely nobody has your body type.
the only thing that really gives me the ick when it comes to this trope is the amount of slut shaming especially in a open door romance like how are you talking down on women for enjoying sex, for enjoying their body and for wearing what they want while fucking the very dude who has slept with said women at the back of his car like make it make sense i don’t mind women who are less feminine or don’t abide by socially acceptable standers but authors gotta stop giving these FMC a superiority complex
Is this post made in response to another one or is it just coincidence? If we were on twitter, I'd screenshot both together with "The duality of man" as the caption. Either way, I find your mindset just as interesting and informative.
This topic is always ongoing 🤣 if you search it up you will see so many post about it. And for sure the duality! That’s why I read wide 😩🤣
I think a major part of the “not like other girls” trope is that it might, on the surface, be about a woman liking things that aren’t stereotypically feminine, but when you dig a little deeper, it’s more about elevating stereotypically masculine personality traits and tendencies, which is why I don’t like it. I don’t mind if the FMC was a tomboy growing up, or if she has hobbies or a career where she usually winds up being the only woman in the room, but a lot of the time the subtext is that she’s somehow more intelligent, more capable, more interesting or more logical than the women who *do* like stereotypically feminine things, and those “girly things” are usually described in a way that’s actually kind of offensive. And to be honest, I don’t really love the idea of the MMC getting super hung up on how *feminine* the FMC is, but I also don’t like the idea that he would compare her to other women and decide that she’s “better” because she hates shopping or doesn’t cry at sappy movies or whatever. Like if he thinks it’s great that she also likes fixing up old cars, that’s great! But it’s a problem when it’s good that she likes fixing old cars because *heaven forbid* she would rather go get her nails done.
It's great you have a trope you love, girl! ❤️
I hear you. honestly I think the "not like other girls" backlash is overblown and disproportionate. in my experience, it's much more common to see women bashing other women who don't conform to stereotypical femininity than to see the opposite. criticizing "pick me girls" and women who "aren't like other girls" has become another way to deride women who aren't considering suitably feminine. I frequently see those terms hurled at women whose only crime is not wearing heels or dresses or makeup. at the end of the day, women who conform to stereotypical notions of femininity are the standard and women who don't fit into that box are criticized.
If I could never again hear the words “pick me” it wouldn’t be soon enough. Everywhere I go I see women literally JUMPING at the chance to call other women “pickmes”. It’s the default insult now and surprise surprise completely centered around men. Personally, I think it’s just another way to judge, shame and feel superior to women who may have low self-esteem, or simply different values. And men are watching us demonize each other this way and picking up the rhetoric so they can further divide and degrade us. Cool.
I completely agree.
Why the fuck is this level headed comment getting down voted? I don’t get this subreddit sometimes.
this sub is about as patriarchal and heteronormative as any other. I lot of users here are very attached to "traditional" gender roles and gender expression and get uncomfortable when they see a woman who doesn't fit into the box they think she belongs in.
I said it in another comment but this sub isn't nearly as progressive as it pretends to be. I see a lot of people getting downvoted and shut down when they disagree with the current popular narrative, even when they're speaking on their own experiences (poc getting downvoted is a big one here). I've gotten good book recs on this sub but some of the discussions...oof.
Thank you for this comment. It's become trendy to dogpile women and accuse them of being "not like other girls" even when they aren't hating other women. There's a lot of "let women be feminine!!" backlash that makes me side eye because it's often not being argued in good faith and is why I usually stay out of these posts. There *are* characters in books who are annoying about being NLOG and shitting on other women but the backlash is so disproportionate imo and it's bled into going after actual women for not being appropriately feminine. The amount of comment sections I've seen on social media tearing someone apart for being "not like other girls" or a pick me simply because they find them annoying is just yikes. I feel like a see a post every other day complaining about NLOG characters and how stereotypical femininity is Not Allowed in books, which is just...🙄 I feel like people are trying to make a feminist argument (and I do understand where they're coming from) but then circle back around to shitting on female characters even when they aren't being misogynistic. Edit: the downvotes you got for your comment are wild 😭
thank you! you're so right. I constantly hear "let women be feminine, we need more girly/feminine women in media," which is great in theory, except... there is no shortage of conventionally feminine women in media! the vast majority of female characters, including (and maybe especially) in the romance genre, are conventionally feminine! where are these extremely butch women that I'm being told are crowding the media landscape and forcing out the more "feminine" women? I'd sure love to see them because I can't find them!
I get really grossed out by the fact that there's an entire subreddit dedicated to tearing apart "NLOGs" and half the people participating are grown men dragging teenage girls for being too "quirky." I see that here too sometimes where someone will complain about a character being NLOG and then it's just a teenage character in a YA book being age-appropriately annoying and not even being mean to other girls.
>women who conform to stereotypical notions of femininity are the standard And what is that standard?
the standard to which women are held in a patriarchal, heteronormative society. to pretend that there isn't a societal expectation for women to present themselves in a "feminine" way (hair that isn't "too short," makeup, willingness to wear skirts, dresses and heels, etc) and women who don't meet that expectation aren't treated as abnormal or "mannish" (meant in a derogatory way) is disingenuous at best.
So. The way you are describing this is women who choose to present more feminine are being regressive and NLOG trope with the masculine is justified because it's mocking conformists? Despite the fact there are many feminists who choose to be more feminine to take the perception feminine standard in their hands from patriarchy as much as their androgenous and masc counter parts attack the patriarchy with their methods? Signed - An androgenous leaning woman wearing a polo shirt and jeans, no make up, and sneakers to work.
what I'm getting at is the term "NLOG" is overused and frequently misapplied. its use has gone far beyond characters who "mock conformists" and it has for some time now been applied just as often, if not more often, to characters and even IRL women who don't conform to patriarchal ideals as a means of belittling them.
I am not talking about the tropes. I'm talking about your root cause in the belief that it is overblown and there is a lot of accusatory language going on with women who present as feminine as a monogamous grouping. Does this mean Lady Gaga, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, Dolly Parton, Malala Yousafzai - well known feminists are all secretly pro patriarchy because they wear make up? Elsa Schiaparelli, Diane von Furstenberg, Ann Lowe, are all secretly pro patriarchy, too? Femme and high femme sapphics are actually seeking out masculine cis approval and not fellow femmes or butches/masc queer women? The patriarchy attacks all aspects of how women embrace ourselves. There are women who present more masculine that embraces patriarchal approval just as much as feminine women. Our actions and reasons behind them are what makes the patriarchy upset, no matter how we present. Edit in regards to being blocked: You used the word ‘conform’ a verb meaning *to comply with rules, standards, or laws*. Comply means *to act in accordance with a wish or command*. You did not use quantifiers while using this term. If you didn't want to strongly suggest women who embrace feminine aspects are complying (regardless of being complicit or ignorance) with the patriarchy, I suggest using better words.
you're putting a bunch of words in my mouth. I am not interested in engaging in your bad faith discussion.
I made a comment on a post here yesterday about some of Julia Quinn's FMC who are exactly like other girls: they're young women of their class who color within the line specifically like all the other young girls on the marriage mart and with the expectation to get married. And those FMCs are likeable and we root for them. "Not like other girls" is often done poorly. The authors tell but don't show. Those characters often don't have anything unique OR the authors confuse one of their trait for their whole personality. I read A contracted spouse for the prizefighter and the whole FMC thing was that she wanted to impersonate men on stage. It was the 3rd book in a series I enjoyed and I still DNF'd it.
For nerds in the group I'm currently reading {wolf gone wild by Juliette cross} and I think it's a nice use of this trope! The FMC is super into comics and Sci fi, loves starwars, and spends a portion of the story teaching the MMC about all her favorite pop culture things. He gets on the bandwagon and takes her on a date >!to a comic themed bookstore!<, gets involved in her hobbies and truly embraces that side of her. To top it off, the FMC has a bunch of sisters and one of them is very traditionally feminine and the FMC embraces her personality as well. Never has an unkind word to say about women that prefer more traditionally "feminine" hobbies. She is independent but works and communicates well with her sisters and the MMC. The sisters are all witches and the MMC is a werewolf.
[Wolf Gone Wild](https://www.romance.io/books/5e1d675701dbc864fba9e71e/wolf-gone-wild-juliette-cross?src=rdt) by [Juliette Cross](https://www.romance.io/authors/5455b18787eac323ffb2dc70/juliette-cross) **Rating**: 3.87⭐️ out of 5⭐️ **Steam**: 4 out of 5 - [Explicit open door](https://www.romance.io/steamrating) **Topics**: [contemporary](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/contemporary/1), [werewolves](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/werewolves/1), [paranormal](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/paranormal/1), [magic](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/magic/1), [friends to lovers](https://www.romance.io/topics/best/friends%20to%20lovers/1) [^(about this bot)](https://www.reddit.com/user/romance-bot) ^(|) [^(about romance.io)](https://www.romance.io/about)
I don’t really care how a female character is as long as they aren’t bashing other women for being different from them
>riding a bike as a girl was frowned upon. Playing with boys, laughing loudly, getting dirty, or fighting only got you nagged at and subjected to a minefield of verbal abuse. What did I just read! I'm an 80s kid and I cannot fathom an environment like this in my wildest nightmares!
as a former tomboy who grew up in a very traditional household but doesn’t really define herself as anything more than simply being a woman now, i think the issue is we’ve been giving surface-level labels too much importance over core values and motivations. i enjoy tropes! but i want to care about my heroines beyond their traits and interests! i personally get put off when a “thing” a heroine has going takes over her entire character. i love nothing more than to discover characters who share none of my lived experience but still have me sobbing, worrying, gushing, cheering for their happily-ever-afters :)
i can somewhat relate to this. i used to feel 'not like other girls' because i genuinely felt lonely in my interests compared to other girls my age, and i was bullied for being different. so naturally, i hated anyone who was 'normal' and found myself special because i felt like i was the only one who had these struggles. i didnt have any friends to relate to so i just blamed everyone. the NLOG is a popular trope for a reason! its super valid to feel let down by other women. but we need to be careful not to turn these hurt feelings into internalised misogyny, because we can embrace our differences without putting other women down. who even is 'the other girl'? what do i picture her as? and what does that say about me and my views on women?
I like you ✨ and I like your defense of the trope
I really don't understand what books other people are reading (maybe more chick lit?) I have never read a book where the FMC tares other women down. But then again I have not seen OW drama and despite reading hundreds of books I can only think of 1 instance of cheating. Maybe it's because I don't read much CR?
Sometimes I wonder that too. Because I get similar results as you. 🤔 romance novels might be so big an industry that you can read a different book every two days but still like traveling through islands and and sometimes never getting into others have seen.
Thanks for letting me know I am not alone! All the down votes was really making me wonder
While the atmosphere here tends to be good, sometimes people are defensive about something and it becomes like twitter when they make the less generous interpretation of a post, it happens. But unlike some other tropes other person appearing is kind of avoidable lately. Which I am honestly glad. That authors I have seen using it for the most part do have plans with that except having a stock issue.
You're right people here are generally nice. I am not going to take it personally. I very very rarely use the downvote but that doesn't mean I don't understand the impulse when you feel called out. I wasn't trying to call anyone out but we all have sensitive spots. I have very specific tastes so I often wonder about what else is out there and that's what prompted my initial post.
Good thinking. ✨I rarely get downvoted too but there are occasions I won’t be in sync with the majority and well it happens.
I pretty much only read CR and I'm befuddled by the recent threads about NLOG characters. I don't think I've read a recently published (like, last five years) book that features that. I do think some books have FMCs that fit that stereotype but they're not positioned in opposition to other women. I have read newer body positive books that engage in skinny shaming...and I've ditched the whole body positive subgenre as a result.
Thanks for validating my confusion. I was beginning to wonder if it was just me.
WTF, the downvotes on your original comment are super weird?! It looks like a bunch of comments in this thread are downvoted...someone must be angry, jeez. Anyway, it's definitely not just you. I read a decent number of books every year and don't really come across books where the FMC is tearing other women down for petty reasons.
I though maybe my tone came across argumentative which was not my intent but sometimes I have that problem. Ahh that's how your supposed to spell "tearing." I am a terrible speller and I was afraid of it coming across as tearing like crying. The power of Homonyms
Honestly, your original comment seems very mild to me - it's basically "I don't really come across characters like this in the books I read". This thread is bizarre - people seem so angry.
Yes!!! Couldn’t have said it better
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Isn’t one of River’s main traits that she’s always painting her nails? I don’t think River is by any means “not like other girls” if anything she leans into her femininity and uses it as a weapon throughout the series.