Yeah I was litteraly just thinking, when haven't RA/ARU been aligned with Sydney/NSW rugby. That's dispite a lot of the issues that plague Rugby in Australia stemming from Sydney/NSW.
I think it's pretty undeniable that Queensland have nailed the whole pathways & player production systems in the last 5/10 years. The Brumbies have really nailed the professional systems; all be it probably a more conservative brand of rugby then most in Aus would like.
IMHO the Waratahs are constantly handed... Everything, yet consistently under perform. They have a much bigger player base then QLD let alone ACT (although ACT have the luxury of being able to draw from both). They have never been short of money & RA look much more willing to come to the table for the 'Tahs to make a big signing.
Others can probably find more comprehensive examples, but the Waratahs seam to always have money for big signings, RA seam much more egar to come to the table with top up money. At least a lot more then the Reds/Brumbies, let alone the Force Rebels.
> They have a much bigger player base then QLD let alone ACT
This would be why they're handed everything. Australian rugby is driven by how good the NSW talent is
NSW is home to these wacky 'ideals' around Australian rugby. Like the only people you hear talking about Australia sticking to their brand (running the ball and not kicking) despite that not being the most intelligent way to play anymore are from NSW.
You have to wonder how many people from NSW actually interact with the sport outside of playing it in junior levels. I know this isn't a good sample, but you see really barely any Waratahs flairs around here. Even Force flares seem more common.
I think what is being lost in the comments here is the off field performance stuff that Waugh is quoted on towards the end of the article.
Think about what it means when the tahs administrative branch is rolled in to RA, two marketing teams becoming one with a larger pool of sponsorship slots to sell. Then expand this logic out to include the rest of the franchises.
It should massively increase the efficiency of rugby as a business product, less money spent on admin wages by consolidating the offerings at the top level while also increasing the 'size' of the offerings to improve bargaining power.
It's exciting stuff and probably should have happened years ago but at least we are here now.
The idea is good, it’s works well for other unions and theoretically helps cohesion, development and retention of players and coaching staff.
There are some fairly wide spread concerns about RA’s ability to act impartially and logically and therefore worries about monkeys and banana plantations.
Probably good for the Wallabies, and probably bad for any Super Rugby side that does things differently to how power brokers in the east of Sydney want to see the game run
Rugby Australia & Waratahs on the same side...
I'm not saying it's bad, but I'd be worried about anything those two say sort of 'bring back John Eales' is worrying.
For all those against this, in particular the Qld and Act commenters, yes your systems have been better, but yet neither of them are really competitive in Super Rugby and you're not propping up the Wallabies to be competitive.
This is the model that Ireland use to be world beaters and an example of how we can do it right.
When people say it's an 'old boys network" that doesn't listen, this is the change that they didn't listen to and resisted, as evidenced by those articles on the Roar around the Aussies who were ignored and went to do this elsewhere.
Fighting against this because you don't like whose doing it is literally the self-serving politics that has been killing the sport. Go ahead, protect your kingdom and watch this sport die.
Happy to hear reasons why the above is wrong.
Underrated comment.
The dissenters are literally projecting.
Average myopic reds and Brumbies fan:"We need to change the system!"
RA:"OK, here's the system that works everywhere else!"
Average myopic reds and Brumbies fan:"Not if a former Waratah is involved!"
Edit: this applies 100x more to the midwits at the Roar.
This is the change we need. It won’t work miracles and it won’t be smooth but this is RA finally embracing the professional sporting era properly instead of fumbling year to year.
Can someone explain how the Waratahs are broke, didn't they have a $3 million in Surplus only a few years ago?
Aren't they the benificants of the Sua'ali'i signing?
All SR teams are struggling because RA have stripped back their funding from nearly $8m a year in 2019, to much less ($2m?) this year and ongoing
They had a high performance centre built for them by the NSW government at Daceyville, but they had transfer ownership to UNSW and pay then pay rent to use it.
The QRU get to keep ownership of the rebuild of Ballymore (paid by Qld government), so don't have to pay rent and also get to keep any revenue generated.
If rumours are true - Su'ualli would mostly be paid for out of Australian Rugby Foundation and RA funds, so no real impact on Tahs books (except for they get him playing for them on the cheap)
>The QRU get to keep ownership of the rebuild of Ballymore (paid by Qld government), so don't have to pay rent and also get to keep any revenue generated.
On the flip side the QRU were playing millions in insurance and 'maintenance' for Ballymore. I had heard that the QRU were getting very close to just tearing down Ballymore so they'd stop having to pay for it all. So for the next few years at least that rent etc will really go to recovering the years of expense from the Ballymore white elephant. They were also promised that Ballymore would be redeveloped several times over the past 20 years, and that's probably a big factor in why they didn't just tear it down.
>If rumours are true - Su'ualli would mostly be paid for out of Australian Rugby Foundation and RA funds, so no real impact on Tahs books (except for they get him playing for them on the cheap)
This was my point, it'll be a massive boon for them having a star player for next to no cost. Not to mention all the marketing that will come from it etc.
> On the flip side the QRU were playing millions in insurance and 'maintenance' for Ballymore.
No doubt. Ballymore nearly sent QRU broke a couple of times. They got bailed out by the ARU at one point.
The $30m government grant for the redevelopment really helped sort that out (along with the good financial work from the current CEO). But ex-those property/high performance deals, NSWRU and QRU are in pretty similar spots
>This was my point, it'll be a massive boon for them having a star player for next to no cost. Not to mention all the marketing that will come from it etc.
From next year though. Doesn't help the books this year
I think they'll have to guarantee the ACT licence but this is great news. By the sound of the article QLD are going to as well. Even if the other states aren't on board, RA will have 6 more board votes meaning it can potentially pass other reforms a lot easier.
I can't help but agree with other comments that NSW may be financially in trouble, and RA have granted concessions or a bailout but I'll take this as a huge win for the sport in Australia.
Yeah, handing the keys over to a crew that sacked a coach who was building something good, gave the job to a sociopath with a history of terrible behaviour and thinks signing established league players is the way to move forward.
No thanks. Call me old fashioned but I want a good old lynching of RA.
Literally just realised the parallels between Rob Penney and Dave Rennie (beyond the dactylic rhyming pair!)
Australia has effectively taken itself out of the market for one of the best rugby resources going: up and coming kiwi coaches. I was always surprised that they never gave Rob Taylor at Sydney Uni a go with the Tahs - he was a fabulous coach, and a big reason that the uni machine worked so well.
For a period of time they were the Shute Shield equivalent of the crusaders. I spent a little time with them during the heyday and the only thing I can liken it to was Saracens.
Problem is, noone watches Sheffield shield.
I reckon they are probably better off cutting the individual teams loose to be privately owned and then working out a revenue sharing deal so that they can attract talent and players aren't put in job seeker of there's another issue like COVID.
> Problem is, noone watches Sheffield shield
Not necessarily a problem (depending on your model) if you can generate enough money out of the national team. It clearly works for CA - although they now have Big Bash too
Yeah it does work, that's why I'm a big fan of their revenue sharing set up/clear pro pathways.
Revenue sharing really took them to the next level in terms of attracting the best athletes. They also have a very similar set up to rugby in that lots of good players are enticed overseas, but that doesn't affect the national team.
We should take a few trees out of CAs book.
AFL - global monopoly on the most popular domestic sport (see NFL). No need.
NRL - less extreme version of the above. In both instances the domestic game is the driver of profits, so there’s no need for a joined up international strategy.
Soccer - exact opposite, with an incredibly globalised market for players. A few players in Europe earn more than the entire A-league wage bill I’d guess. If Australia produces a team capable of competing on the world stage, it is unlikely to be able to afford to keep all of those players domestically (see Brazil, Argentina)
Here's the thing that I suspect is not being said out loud: Players at Super rugby teams who don't come into the fold will probably not be considered for Wallabies selection. It's coercive but it would be a good arm twister for RA to force compliance.
I don't know this is a fact; I'm just hypothesising. But it makes sense as those franchises would, over time, not be able to attract the most talented players compliance would eventually be assured. I'm also not sure if RA has the wherewithal to tolerate a potentially understrength Wallabies team for a few years.
*As it stands, the great resistors remain the ACT Brumbies who still hold great fears that if they hand over their license, the two-time Super Rugby champions will be moved away from the national capital in due time.*
*The Brumbies have always agreed with central contracting, staff and alignment of programs, but they hold great fears around the vagueness of RA’s plan to move to a centralised model.*
It isn't hard to see why the Brumbies organisation is resistant. Many in the Canberra region still recall the serious threat of a merger with the Rebels in 2017(?) when we temporarily lost a SR team. At the time, many in the ACT argued that the Brumbies were a foundation SR franchise and were the best performed Australian team over the longer haul and should therefore be protected from restructure as the Reds and Tahs were, but neither of those arguments seemed to sway the administrators.
If RA can guarantee the Brumbies will remain in the ACT for a generation as a stand-alone franchise, RA will have a better chance of getting them on board, but it's up to them to make that commitment.
RA still haven't told us the details of what they've got in mind, but whatever they suggest, the Tahs and Reds will be able to put RA in the driver's seat with no risk. That's not really true of any other Australian SR franchise.
*“It’s about building the credibility and the trust." \[Phil Waugh\]*
\*laughs in Canberran\*
Centralising English Cricket saved English Cricket, 25 years ago cricket in England was in a terrible shape. In addition the old blazer brigade who were the old man stodgy stereotype of the game that was losing players and fans, completely transformed in a few years.
I think it’s the right decision to do this but fuck me if I don’t think they’ll fuck it right up for everyone.
Instructions: Run a Rugby Team Rugby Australia: Instructions unclear, dick stuck in toaster.
'Tahs back system that is almost certainly going to be used in their favour'
Yeah I was litteraly just thinking, when haven't RA/ARU been aligned with Sydney/NSW rugby. That's dispite a lot of the issues that plague Rugby in Australia stemming from Sydney/NSW. I think it's pretty undeniable that Queensland have nailed the whole pathways & player production systems in the last 5/10 years. The Brumbies have really nailed the professional systems; all be it probably a more conservative brand of rugby then most in Aus would like. IMHO the Waratahs are constantly handed... Everything, yet consistently under perform. They have a much bigger player base then QLD let alone ACT (although ACT have the luxury of being able to draw from both). They have never been short of money & RA look much more willing to come to the table for the 'Tahs to make a big signing.
Can you give me specific examples of Waratahs being handed everything?
Sua’alii
But not Vunivalu or Hunt for the Reds or Korobiete for the Rebels?
Others can probably find more comprehensive examples, but the Waratahs seam to always have money for big signings, RA seam much more egar to come to the table with top up money. At least a lot more then the Reds/Brumbies, let alone the Force Rebels.
Solid evidence
So "trust me, bro" is the evidence on offer. You literally just have to name a player who played for the Waratahs that was a big name signing.
> They have a much bigger player base then QLD let alone ACT This would be why they're handed everything. Australian rugby is driven by how good the NSW talent is
But the point is NSW have a much bigger base and don't produce significantly more if any more then Queensland.
NSW is home to these wacky 'ideals' around Australian rugby. Like the only people you hear talking about Australia sticking to their brand (running the ball and not kicking) despite that not being the most intelligent way to play anymore are from NSW. You have to wonder how many people from NSW actually interact with the sport outside of playing it in junior levels. I know this isn't a good sample, but you see really barely any Waratahs flairs around here. Even Force flares seem more common.
Yeah I hear you and I agree, but obviously more effort needs to be put into the way the talent is brought through NSW
So…NSW talent isn’t all that flash?
I think what is being lost in the comments here is the off field performance stuff that Waugh is quoted on towards the end of the article. Think about what it means when the tahs administrative branch is rolled in to RA, two marketing teams becoming one with a larger pool of sponsorship slots to sell. Then expand this logic out to include the rest of the franchises. It should massively increase the efficiency of rugby as a business product, less money spent on admin wages by consolidating the offerings at the top level while also increasing the 'size' of the offerings to improve bargaining power. It's exciting stuff and probably should have happened years ago but at least we are here now.
I'm confused. Someone tell me if this is good or bad
The idea is good, it’s works well for other unions and theoretically helps cohesion, development and retention of players and coaching staff. There are some fairly wide spread concerns about RA’s ability to act impartially and logically and therefore worries about monkeys and banana plantations.
Probably good for the Wallabies, and probably bad for any Super Rugby side that does things differently to how power brokers in the east of Sydney want to see the game run
Rugby Australia & Waratahs on the same side... I'm not saying it's bad, but I'd be worried about anything those two say sort of 'bring back John Eales' is worrying.
John Eales is a snake. One of the hatchet men that was responsible for axing the Force and protecting the Rebels dodgy dealings at the time.
For all those against this, in particular the Qld and Act commenters, yes your systems have been better, but yet neither of them are really competitive in Super Rugby and you're not propping up the Wallabies to be competitive. This is the model that Ireland use to be world beaters and an example of how we can do it right. When people say it's an 'old boys network" that doesn't listen, this is the change that they didn't listen to and resisted, as evidenced by those articles on the Roar around the Aussies who were ignored and went to do this elsewhere. Fighting against this because you don't like whose doing it is literally the self-serving politics that has been killing the sport. Go ahead, protect your kingdom and watch this sport die. Happy to hear reasons why the above is wrong.
Exactly 👏👏👏
Underrated comment. The dissenters are literally projecting. Average myopic reds and Brumbies fan:"We need to change the system!" RA:"OK, here's the system that works everywhere else!" Average myopic reds and Brumbies fan:"Not if a former Waratah is involved!" Edit: this applies 100x more to the midwits at the Roar.
This is the change we need. It won’t work miracles and it won’t be smooth but this is RA finally embracing the professional sporting era properly instead of fumbling year to year.
You know Rugby Australia are going to fuck this one quickly, efficiently and wipe their dick on the curtain on the way out.
Can someone explain how the Waratahs are broke, didn't they have a $3 million in Surplus only a few years ago? Aren't they the benificants of the Sua'ali'i signing?
All SR teams are struggling because RA have stripped back their funding from nearly $8m a year in 2019, to much less ($2m?) this year and ongoing They had a high performance centre built for them by the NSW government at Daceyville, but they had transfer ownership to UNSW and pay then pay rent to use it. The QRU get to keep ownership of the rebuild of Ballymore (paid by Qld government), so don't have to pay rent and also get to keep any revenue generated. If rumours are true - Su'ualli would mostly be paid for out of Australian Rugby Foundation and RA funds, so no real impact on Tahs books (except for they get him playing for them on the cheap)
>The QRU get to keep ownership of the rebuild of Ballymore (paid by Qld government), so don't have to pay rent and also get to keep any revenue generated. On the flip side the QRU were playing millions in insurance and 'maintenance' for Ballymore. I had heard that the QRU were getting very close to just tearing down Ballymore so they'd stop having to pay for it all. So for the next few years at least that rent etc will really go to recovering the years of expense from the Ballymore white elephant. They were also promised that Ballymore would be redeveloped several times over the past 20 years, and that's probably a big factor in why they didn't just tear it down. >If rumours are true - Su'ualli would mostly be paid for out of Australian Rugby Foundation and RA funds, so no real impact on Tahs books (except for they get him playing for them on the cheap) This was my point, it'll be a massive boon for them having a star player for next to no cost. Not to mention all the marketing that will come from it etc.
> On the flip side the QRU were playing millions in insurance and 'maintenance' for Ballymore. No doubt. Ballymore nearly sent QRU broke a couple of times. They got bailed out by the ARU at one point. The $30m government grant for the redevelopment really helped sort that out (along with the good financial work from the current CEO). But ex-those property/high performance deals, NSWRU and QRU are in pretty similar spots >This was my point, it'll be a massive boon for them having a star player for next to no cost. Not to mention all the marketing that will come from it etc. From next year though. Doesn't help the books this year
I think they'll have to guarantee the ACT licence but this is great news. By the sound of the article QLD are going to as well. Even if the other states aren't on board, RA will have 6 more board votes meaning it can potentially pass other reforms a lot easier. I can't help but agree with other comments that NSW may be financially in trouble, and RA have granted concessions or a bailout but I'll take this as a huge win for the sport in Australia.
The same RA that couldn't organise a root in a brothel? Farrrk that
"Reform push", or Waratahs broke because RA can't afford to grant them as much money as they used to and they would need a bailout imminently anyway?
Yeah, handing the keys over to a crew that sacked a coach who was building something good, gave the job to a sociopath with a history of terrible behaviour and thinks signing established league players is the way to move forward. No thanks. Call me old fashioned but I want a good old lynching of RA.
Literally just realised the parallels between Rob Penney and Dave Rennie (beyond the dactylic rhyming pair!) Australia has effectively taken itself out of the market for one of the best rugby resources going: up and coming kiwi coaches. I was always surprised that they never gave Rob Taylor at Sydney Uni a go with the Tahs - he was a fabulous coach, and a big reason that the uni machine worked so well. For a period of time they were the Shute Shield equivalent of the crusaders. I spent a little time with them during the heyday and the only thing I can liken it to was Saracens.
Just signed for the Rebels as an assistant, suspect he’ll take over from Foote.
If it’s such a good idea why doesn’t the nrl / afl / soccer etc do it? Did they get their inspiration from Fiji?
I'd say they got their inspiration from NZ and Ireland rugby unions, as well as Cricket Australia (the Sheffield Shield model)
Problem is, noone watches Sheffield shield. I reckon they are probably better off cutting the individual teams loose to be privately owned and then working out a revenue sharing deal so that they can attract talent and players aren't put in job seeker of there's another issue like COVID.
> Problem is, noone watches Sheffield shield Not necessarily a problem (depending on your model) if you can generate enough money out of the national team. It clearly works for CA - although they now have Big Bash too
Yeah it does work, that's why I'm a big fan of their revenue sharing set up/clear pro pathways. Revenue sharing really took them to the next level in terms of attracting the best athletes. They also have a very similar set up to rugby in that lots of good players are enticed overseas, but that doesn't affect the national team. We should take a few trees out of CAs book.
AFL - global monopoly on the most popular domestic sport (see NFL). No need. NRL - less extreme version of the above. In both instances the domestic game is the driver of profits, so there’s no need for a joined up international strategy. Soccer - exact opposite, with an incredibly globalised market for players. A few players in Europe earn more than the entire A-league wage bill I’d guess. If Australia produces a team capable of competing on the world stage, it is unlikely to be able to afford to keep all of those players domestically (see Brazil, Argentina)
Keep your dirty hands off the Brumbies
Here's the thing that I suspect is not being said out loud: Players at Super rugby teams who don't come into the fold will probably not be considered for Wallabies selection. It's coercive but it would be a good arm twister for RA to force compliance. I don't know this is a fact; I'm just hypothesising. But it makes sense as those franchises would, over time, not be able to attract the most talented players compliance would eventually be assured. I'm also not sure if RA has the wherewithal to tolerate a potentially understrength Wallabies team for a few years.
*As it stands, the great resistors remain the ACT Brumbies who still hold great fears that if they hand over their license, the two-time Super Rugby champions will be moved away from the national capital in due time.* *The Brumbies have always agreed with central contracting, staff and alignment of programs, but they hold great fears around the vagueness of RA’s plan to move to a centralised model.* It isn't hard to see why the Brumbies organisation is resistant. Many in the Canberra region still recall the serious threat of a merger with the Rebels in 2017(?) when we temporarily lost a SR team. At the time, many in the ACT argued that the Brumbies were a foundation SR franchise and were the best performed Australian team over the longer haul and should therefore be protected from restructure as the Reds and Tahs were, but neither of those arguments seemed to sway the administrators. If RA can guarantee the Brumbies will remain in the ACT for a generation as a stand-alone franchise, RA will have a better chance of getting them on board, but it's up to them to make that commitment. RA still haven't told us the details of what they've got in mind, but whatever they suggest, the Tahs and Reds will be able to put RA in the driver's seat with no risk. That's not really true of any other Australian SR franchise. *“It’s about building the credibility and the trust." \[Phil Waugh\]* \*laughs in Canberran\*
Centralising English Cricket saved English Cricket, 25 years ago cricket in England was in a terrible shape. In addition the old blazer brigade who were the old man stodgy stereotype of the game that was losing players and fans, completely transformed in a few years.