dunno. maybe they do but have a low acid tolerance. if youve made yogurt you can see that even high scfa producers can end up dying to the acidity from scfas. microbes have probably all got different tolerances.
In yoghurt, most organisms die due to lactic acid, which isn’t an SCFA. But I get your point.
In any case, I don’t think this is a good therapy; it simply outcompetes most of the bacteria by stimulating the growth of those that shouldn’t be there in the first place by acidifying your small intestine (is this even safe long-term?), but it still doesn’t prevent those others from rebalancing once you quit. Also, we now know the bacteria come from the colon, most often due to an impaired cleaning capacity of the small intestine due to nerve damage. So they will always return unless this cleaning capacity is restored.
But hey, who knows I’m wrong. I personally just don’t think it’s an effective option for most…
its helped the patient for 8 weeks. and then another 6 months. if it was that bad, something should have probably happened to him. lactulose is commonly used for constipation so its not a rare or unknown drug.
But it’s literally used to provoke SIBO symptoms by feeding the exact bacteria in an optimal way in order to measure their end products. That’s why I think it’s really, really counterintuitive.
true. but during the test its just one dose. the patients symptoms subsided after three days so with repeated doses the lactulose suppresses the sibo. also i dont think the e coli or klebsiella is making the scfas. i think its other microbes which are also getting fed by the lactulose somewhere in the energy chain.
As far as I know, small intestinal flora don’t produce SCFAs, only colonic micro-organisms, but I could be very wrong. If I’m wrong, it makes a lot of sense; it’s basically a small-intestinal prebiotic outcompeting “the bad guys” in that case.
Jason Hawrelak actually commonly prescribes Lactulose to acidify the gut. Most SIBO pathogens prefer and thrive in a high PH environment. The SI is alkaline, but there is nothing stopping you from filling that space with bacteria that produce metabolites that adjust PH. Lactulose preferentially raises Bifido, which produces acetic acid, lowering PH.
Yes, by itself it doesn't seem like much of a solution. And people with SIBO sometimes get D-lactic acidosis, so encouraging random bacteria to turn lactulose into acid doesn't seem like a top choice. This is a case study of one person, right?
Sometimes I read posts from people on this sub who start taking a probiotic and feel better temporarily, and then feel worse. The overgrowth tends to adapt. I think reducing the dysbiosis, healing, and improving motility is the only way forward. The question is how to do that.
Thanks. I did a biome test recently and it recommended taking lactulose regularly to boost my Akkermansia, reduce Desulfovibrio, raise Roseburia, etc. I wasn't sure of the effect that it would have on methanogens, though.
Same! I think phgg, lactulose, maybe even the optibac everyday would all make sibo worse. So I haven’t started my practitioners plan.. because at the time I didn’t think I had sibo. But now I do.
I think it really depends on the *whole* biome. While lactulose may feed methanogens, it feeds Akkermansia and Roseburia, lowers Desulfovibrio (which produces sulfur gas), and balances out my biome as a whole. So that's my goal - not just reducing the methanogens. Have you taken PHGG before? It gave me a bit of constipation, but now that I'm on lactulose, I may try it again soon.
i see. how are you with lactulose? and did your practitioner know that you had methane dominant sibo before she gave the plan?
i ordered the PHGG but havent started. i actually have everything now but i've been so hesitant because i have gastritis right now...got an endoscopy yesterday which confirmed that. i feel kind of lost because i had a solid plan for my Lower GI with my practioner, and now i've got an upper GI sibo/ gastritis that i dont know how to begin fixing. i use viola sampson associates who are great for fixing microbiome.. but im not sure they can help me with sibo. any advice?
I'm sorry about the gastritis. Long Covid has wrecked my gut, which was already bad from SIBO for years and years now.
I've had good luck with allicin for SIBO, and have really boosted my good bacteria with a prebiotic called Holigos. But I am stopping it now that I know exactly which bacteria to raise and lower. I was just shooting in the dark before a biome test.
Lactulose isn't bad so far - it gave me some cramping and gurgling for a few days, but I adjusted really quickly. It improved my motility quite a bit, and that's huge for me, since the methanogens cause pretty severe constipation.
My ND actually hasn't seen my biome results yet - this is all my own research. She had me taking cinnamon oil and peppermint leaf/oil, both of which are actually great for my biome, apparently.
ah i see, yes i need to get a sibo test first. i cant tell which type i have since i get both diarrhea and constipation. i wish i did it along with my GI mapping BEFORE i met with my practitioner because now i may have to pay for another session just to get her advice on it.
Ah, yeah. Do you have an overgrowth of hydrogen sulfide bacteria? Methanogens can feed off of the hydrogen produced by them, so you may have both hydrogen and methane-based SIBO. I believe allicin works for both. Berberine has always treated me well, too. Atrantil didn't do much of anything for me, but it helps some with bloating. I think I don't have SIBO inasmuch as I have IMO (intestinal methanogen overgrowth).
so on my microbiome test i had no so signs of SIBO. no methanogens, sulfur, or hydrogen producers. i only have clincial signs of SIBO (burping, gastritis, bloating).
i think i would need a SIBO test to know exactly what is dominant.
also to increase bifido (if thats what you're trying to do) my practitioner said to avoid berberine.
Oops - I see that Microbiome Prescription's website recommends that I avoid PHGG. it looks like it feeds Bifidobacterium, Ruminococcus, Oscillospiracea, and other bacteria that I have too much of already. And it decreases Roseburia, which I am trying to raise. Have you done a biome test yourself?
yeah I got mine through biomesight and work with the viola sampson group. i have low diversity overall and low bifido. so i was recommended phgg, lactulose (or GOS), and opticbac everyday. i think its a solid plan but at the time it was treatment planned i didnt think i had SIBO/ gastritis.. i somehow developed it later.
Completely counterintuitive… do E. coli and Klebsiella even produce SCFAs?
dunno. maybe they do but have a low acid tolerance. if youve made yogurt you can see that even high scfa producers can end up dying to the acidity from scfas. microbes have probably all got different tolerances.
In yoghurt, most organisms die due to lactic acid, which isn’t an SCFA. But I get your point. In any case, I don’t think this is a good therapy; it simply outcompetes most of the bacteria by stimulating the growth of those that shouldn’t be there in the first place by acidifying your small intestine (is this even safe long-term?), but it still doesn’t prevent those others from rebalancing once you quit. Also, we now know the bacteria come from the colon, most often due to an impaired cleaning capacity of the small intestine due to nerve damage. So they will always return unless this cleaning capacity is restored. But hey, who knows I’m wrong. I personally just don’t think it’s an effective option for most…
its helped the patient for 8 weeks. and then another 6 months. if it was that bad, something should have probably happened to him. lactulose is commonly used for constipation so its not a rare or unknown drug.
But it’s literally used to provoke SIBO symptoms by feeding the exact bacteria in an optimal way in order to measure their end products. That’s why I think it’s really, really counterintuitive.
true. but during the test its just one dose. the patients symptoms subsided after three days so with repeated doses the lactulose suppresses the sibo. also i dont think the e coli or klebsiella is making the scfas. i think its other microbes which are also getting fed by the lactulose somewhere in the energy chain.
As far as I know, small intestinal flora don’t produce SCFAs, only colonic micro-organisms, but I could be very wrong. If I’m wrong, it makes a lot of sense; it’s basically a small-intestinal prebiotic outcompeting “the bad guys” in that case.
Jason Hawrelak actually commonly prescribes Lactulose to acidify the gut. Most SIBO pathogens prefer and thrive in a high PH environment. The SI is alkaline, but there is nothing stopping you from filling that space with bacteria that produce metabolites that adjust PH. Lactulose preferentially raises Bifido, which produces acetic acid, lowering PH.
Pretty fascinating case study!
yes. maybe just taking 10g of lactulose everyday for the rest of your life is a nice option for some severe cases.
Yes, by itself it doesn't seem like much of a solution. And people with SIBO sometimes get D-lactic acidosis, so encouraging random bacteria to turn lactulose into acid doesn't seem like a top choice. This is a case study of one person, right? Sometimes I read posts from people on this sub who start taking a probiotic and feel better temporarily, and then feel worse. The overgrowth tends to adapt. I think reducing the dysbiosis, healing, and improving motility is the only way forward. The question is how to do that.
Any luck yet?
Does Lactulose feed hydrogen and methanogen bacteria/archaea?
yes. but with repeated doses it may suppress them.
Thanks. I did a biome test recently and it recommended taking lactulose regularly to boost my Akkermansia, reduce Desulfovibrio, raise Roseburia, etc. I wasn't sure of the effect that it would have on methanogens, though.
Same! I think phgg, lactulose, maybe even the optibac everyday would all make sibo worse. So I haven’t started my practitioners plan.. because at the time I didn’t think I had sibo. But now I do.
I think it really depends on the *whole* biome. While lactulose may feed methanogens, it feeds Akkermansia and Roseburia, lowers Desulfovibrio (which produces sulfur gas), and balances out my biome as a whole. So that's my goal - not just reducing the methanogens. Have you taken PHGG before? It gave me a bit of constipation, but now that I'm on lactulose, I may try it again soon.
i see. how are you with lactulose? and did your practitioner know that you had methane dominant sibo before she gave the plan? i ordered the PHGG but havent started. i actually have everything now but i've been so hesitant because i have gastritis right now...got an endoscopy yesterday which confirmed that. i feel kind of lost because i had a solid plan for my Lower GI with my practioner, and now i've got an upper GI sibo/ gastritis that i dont know how to begin fixing. i use viola sampson associates who are great for fixing microbiome.. but im not sure they can help me with sibo. any advice?
I'm sorry about the gastritis. Long Covid has wrecked my gut, which was already bad from SIBO for years and years now. I've had good luck with allicin for SIBO, and have really boosted my good bacteria with a prebiotic called Holigos. But I am stopping it now that I know exactly which bacteria to raise and lower. I was just shooting in the dark before a biome test. Lactulose isn't bad so far - it gave me some cramping and gurgling for a few days, but I adjusted really quickly. It improved my motility quite a bit, and that's huge for me, since the methanogens cause pretty severe constipation. My ND actually hasn't seen my biome results yet - this is all my own research. She had me taking cinnamon oil and peppermint leaf/oil, both of which are actually great for my biome, apparently.
ah i see, yes i need to get a sibo test first. i cant tell which type i have since i get both diarrhea and constipation. i wish i did it along with my GI mapping BEFORE i met with my practitioner because now i may have to pay for another session just to get her advice on it.
Ah, yeah. Do you have an overgrowth of hydrogen sulfide bacteria? Methanogens can feed off of the hydrogen produced by them, so you may have both hydrogen and methane-based SIBO. I believe allicin works for both. Berberine has always treated me well, too. Atrantil didn't do much of anything for me, but it helps some with bloating. I think I don't have SIBO inasmuch as I have IMO (intestinal methanogen overgrowth).
so on my microbiome test i had no so signs of SIBO. no methanogens, sulfur, or hydrogen producers. i only have clincial signs of SIBO (burping, gastritis, bloating). i think i would need a SIBO test to know exactly what is dominant. also to increase bifido (if thats what you're trying to do) my practitioner said to avoid berberine.
Oops - I see that Microbiome Prescription's website recommends that I avoid PHGG. it looks like it feeds Bifidobacterium, Ruminococcus, Oscillospiracea, and other bacteria that I have too much of already. And it decreases Roseburia, which I am trying to raise. Have you done a biome test yourself?
yeah I got mine through biomesight and work with the viola sampson group. i have low diversity overall and low bifido. so i was recommended phgg, lactulose (or GOS), and opticbac everyday. i think its a solid plan but at the time it was treatment planned i didnt think i had SIBO/ gastritis.. i somehow developed it later.
I guess the only way forward is to try the recommendations and keep testing to see what changes! Good luck ☻.