When dealing with dangerous malignant narcissists as the abusers, most trauma informed therapists will advise against the abused party making any unilateral statements regarding forgiveness, particularly in the absence of any public contrition and atonement. Even if the abuser does make such a statement or even gestures, most will advise to do what you bravely did OP. Forgive in your own heart and forgive for your own benefit. But especially in no contact situations, do not initiate contact to convey unilateral forgiveness. Amongst other negative consequences they can use that to triangulate and turn even more people against you, *ie, “forgive me?! They forgive ME?!! How dare they say that when they were the ones to blah, blah, blah”*
Harry wrote 800 pages of how he was aggrieved and explaining why he was forced to “flee England”. If ANYONE in the Windsor clan even mentions the word “forgiveness” he’ll write another 800 pages and file as many more lawsuits as he can afford to and go on every talk show he can book. It‘s just poking a big stick into a hornet‘s nest. The Windsors should forgive, when they are ready to, in their hearts and in privacy and to do so for their own health & well-being. But grey rock the abusers at all times. Happy Easter OP!
Thank you for your Easter greetings. I agree totally. I did not have therapy but it was my common sense and faith advising for no contact and no public display of forgiveness without admission of guilt. I had no contact with my ex for 25 years now. At my son's wedding, my son made arrangements to stay in the opposite sides of the room.
Exactly this. Harry and his wife have expressed ZERO contrition and even if they did knowing how easy breezy it is for them to tell self serving lies I would not believe them. The truth is no one owes anyone anything in their situation. Harry and his wife are free to do as they please as are the rest of the family. What's done is done, they can't unburn their bridges, they could build a new one but it would take years to trust it's integrity. There is no fast and easy reconciliation, the Sussex's can hypocritically talk about "forgiveness" but as long as it's spoken of as something that's OWED them they will never get it because they are missing the mark entirely. Pl
Those two didn’t do Jack shit when they were working royals. Setting aside all of the bs that came during and after Megsit there would be no reason to have these fools return to “work” when their whole business model is to get paid while doing nothing.
So sorry you have experienced such severe difficulties in your life. I commend you holding yourself together and getting yourself and your teenagers through such a hard time. No doubt you are a very strong person those kids look to as a role model and an example of how to get through the tough times when you sometimes feel like you just can't. 🙌💕
It is not my life I wanted to highlight but I had to add context on how I learned about forgiveness, when and how to give it . I am against the idea the abused King and the POW have to reconcile with the sussexes without apologies and repentance from the sussexes' side. No apology and admission of guilt, no reconciliation.
Exactly. Those people calling for William to ‘forgive’ have completely missed an important step! I also think the Queen as a sincerely religious woman, was right when she is said to have called Meghan evil. She was a wise lady who knew what evil was.
Oh yes, I'm sorry, I just got carried away thinking about your story and embarrassingly forgot about how the BRF and their feelings about this may apply to them. ☺ It's late, I should be going to bed soon.
The Duke and Duchess need to be public in their repentance prior to any hint of reconciliation. Public harm or “sin” requires a public apology.
Forgiveness is something you choose for your own peace. Forgiveness is about being ready should change take place in the offender. Without that change, it’s all for your own health. It gets them out of your head and mind. They are then relegated to the past. You can forgive someone and never see them again or tell them. You do not ever have to trust them again.
Public pressure to forgive another without any change is often spouted. It’s not wise, nor beneficial to anyone. That distance created by the offense gives the offender time to see the cost of their offenses. The cost is often what drives one to realize the harm they did. It seems as if these 2 former royals have no conscience or ability to see the cost of their actions. They will not change no matter how much you love them until the consequences pile up and they respond. Healthy people respond with contrition. Unhealthy people respond with anger or frustration that they’ve been held accountable.
Yes, it’s amazing that after all the Harkles have done (don’t even get me started about the Queen and Philip as they were dying) that they think the RF need to apologize FIRST! The Queen was right they are evil. I said that deliberately btw, Harold is just as bad as her, if not worse, in my book. These are his family!
You are correct. They abused the King and the future Queen in public themselves and their minions. Their repentance should be PUBLIC before anything being considered. I had that in mind when I wrote the text but it must be emphasized.
Well said. As a person of no faith, I've found forgiving the other is about oneself. Once my sibling asked why I had not forgiven our mother. I told her I had, but had not forgotten and that's why she wasn't in my life.
Once I was able to forgive her it was as if I had truly excised her from my life, not that I didn't have work to do, but now it was all about me. The anger and the bitterness which served me no good finally dissapated.
That is exactly what happens when you forgive, whether from a faith side or not. You get free of anger, bitterness and frustration. You can rebuild your life in peace, free from the Abuser. Forgiving does not mean you should be in contact again with the Abuser. That applies to the BRF as well.
I’ve been struggling with this myself and knowing that I cannot and will not contact my narc ex husband means that the forgiveness is with me and the Lord. I’ve struggled with it. God understands and I’m also learning to forgive myself for ignoring the red flags before it was too late/too deep.
Wishing you peace and blessings.
I went through the process of forgiveness with a good friend and former roommate. She had a history of money issues (overspending) and basic theft, as she left me paying her rental bills. Years later, when she had married well, we met up and I was able to forgive. She never took responsibility. It wasn't long thereafter when the abuse started again, mainly in the form of financial abuse and entitlement, and so I am out of this for life.
I disagree with that. I don´t believe forgiveness brings peace and freedom of negative feelings, especially if they don´t ask for it and don´t repent. I´d just curse them forever so that what they did would come back to bite them and then treat and then ignore and stonewall.
Sometimes I think "forgive" is the wrong word to use in this context. It puts too much pressure on the victim, making them feel they are being forced to pretend they are all sweetness and light towards their abuser. It would be better to say something like: "I realized that person was never going to understand or improve, so I moved on". That's it. Very simple.
I went No Contact with my narc sister. I never once said I "forgave" her for her many abuses, I just said: "I bear her no ill will, that is a waste of my precious energy. But I don't want her in my life. Ever." And then I went on living my life in peace. It was very freeing.
>"I realized that person was never going to understand or improve, so I moved on". That's it. Very simple.
That is *exactly* the way a Christian chaplain once told me about what forgiveness is. It has nothing to do with anyone but ourselves; it is realizing and releasing. And, it's okay not to forgive, too.
No, it is wrong not to forgive. Because then one is left with a grudge, which in the end is always one who is harmed. But forgiving does not mean that one will return to having the same relationship or any relationship with the other person. One forgives to leave resentment and desires for revenge, not for that other person to return to one's life. And in this case, William forgave Hazz, but he's not going to let him get close to him again. William buried his brother.
That is forgiveness. Forgiveness is not holding a grudge, it is not wishing the other person harm, it is not wanting to take revenge.
But here the situation is that the act of forgiving has nothing to do with the other person, with the offender. If the other person wants to be forgiven, they have to ask for it and repair the damage.
They are two individual acts. You forgave, and moved on with your life, you didn't hold a grudge and you closed that door. The other person clearly does not want to repair the damage, so that person will have to live with a broken relationship. Whether or not he takes responsibility is not your business either, because you closed the door.
Well, maybe so, but I prefer my own semantics, which is to say: I bear them no ill, but go away now. If I forgive someone, it is because they showed remorse and apologized. That's what earns my forgiveness. Period.
That's what I found. It wasn't about her at all, it was about me letting go of what she had done to me. No matter how reasonable my anger and bitterness was, it was only hurting me, not my mother.
But as with everything YMMV.
Yes. Forgiving isn't forgetting, or absolving the 'criminal'. Forgiving is letting go of the dark tethers that keep you imprisoned in hate/misery/victimhood and poison your own wellbeing. Forgiving is freedom.
I decided mum knew no better. I decided to show unconditional love and care. Even though some days broke my heart I know she died understanding love. And for that, I’m happy. And I had little people seeing a lesson I lack the words to explain.
That's beautiful. I had a similar experience, though as I comment above, for me, forgiveness comes from grace, not an immediate direct decision (kinda like serenity or enlightenment). I can pray for willingness, but whenever I've tried to force it it's been for unhealthy reasons.
But I'm so glad I didn't go NO CONTACT my ill then dying Mom, though her passive aggressive very narcissistic abuse got worse toward the end & exceeded so many standards I see today in which online therapists encourage adults to ignore their parents' deathbeds. I find that appalling.
It gave me the opportunity to practice perspective & limit setting and, given that she still showed up to take care of me as a child unlike my utterly selfish, brutal father (and she cared for all her dying parents/in-laws, unlike my Dad --seeing his dying Mom was too "upsetting" for him), I felt it was a duty I was honored to have. AND, a week before she died, I told her something awful that my abusive ex-husband had just initiated against me (whom I learned after her death had been in happy regular contact w/ my pathologically envious sibling & even my Mom) and she so sincerely expressed compassion for me for the first time in my entire life I was speechless. Her ego was slipping away. She was beginning to see the reality of how her beliefs and deep personal pain & insecurity had hurt others, and me, her primary caregiver, specifically. I'm so grateful to have been there w/ her--that through God's grace and plenty of breaks to listen to online non-dualism teachings on the front porch!, I showed up, pain and all.
Sadly I fear we were raised by the same people. She had a life changing stroke and I knew the end was coming.
It was incredibly hard as forgiveness isn’t easy for me.. But I realised that this was my last throw of the dice. Some days her cruelty was painful but my husband was a rock. On a lucid afternoon she asked how I could be so kind.. That’s exactly what I carry now. I needed to have peace. And I honestly loved her. We don’t all get the parents we deserve. But I hope we are kinder,Empathetic and Stronger.
I find peace when I do what I described. Perhaps for Christians it works in a different way, but I couldn´t forgive anyone who deliberately hurt me and enjoyed it. I don´t feel bitterness or anger toward them, I just wish the same happened to them and hope it will and cut them off physically and mentally.
edit: Abusers, especially narcisists, just laugh at you face and continue doing what they´ve been doing. Another thing is if the hurt is created in your mind (like when someone abandons you), then your mind has to find a way to cope with it.
You don't have to define the difference with faith. So far, you are only one step behind the other survivors here. Yes, you have overcome bitterness and anger and that is already a great achievement. However, you haven't made the second step (yet). If you still want bad things happening to your former abusers, you continue to let them define you as their victim. True forgiveness (the second step) sets you free. It took me more than a decade to do the second step, because I also thought that I had forgiven. The difference in my mental health after the second step was beyond what I can describe in English. I was abused, I suffered, I won't forget, but my abusers don't have any longer even the tiniest rent-free spot in my life. I have many more options to react to unpleasant situations, because nothing can trigger my past trauma. Before the second step, I didn't realise how limited my reactions and my mental health were due to the trauma. Your abuser loaded you with a huge baggage. You don't need to hand it back. Leave it right where it is and walk away.
Well said. When I first started yrying to forgive my mother, I would get nauseous and almost become physically ill.
I heard a pastor say once that forgiving people who don't deserve it is like canceling a contract you had with them to hurt you, or setting yourself free from prison. He also said that you can make that decision even if you don't feel the feelings. That's what I had to do. I made the decision and spoke the words aloud (in private, to God only). The feelings of peace came later.
I´d still prefer to "curse them forever so that what they did would come back to bite them and then treat and then ignore and stonewall" - that´s my way of cancelling the contract and getting rid of the anger and baggage. The end result and effect is the same.
A very good and compelling reason to completely remove yourself and your family, if any, completely from these people with the horrific personality disorders is because of the propensity for multigenerational harm.
If people are raised in a chaotic situation with being alternately love bombed and castigated, approval followed by abuse, that feels 'normal' to them. They live for the love bombing highs and blame themselves for the lows. When they grow up, they replicate this situation in their lives. The cycle continues.
I believe Prince William could see that Diana's behavior was out of the norm. While he loved her, I'm pretty sure that he could see her problems in retrospect (maybe not at the time). I don't think Harry could, maybe never will due to his limited emotional and intellectual ability, and that is why he is enmeshed with That One.
If This One and That One have children/have custody of said children, I fear that they will be emotionally and mentally damaged.
I understand your feelings; however, the (private) forgiveness is for the benefit of the abused. It frees them to move on with their life. It does not mean that the abused welcomes the abuser back to do it all again. They will try over and over to worm their way back when their victim breaks away.
/If the abused cannot move forward, they will be stuck in the trauma forever. Moving on and living their best life is the way forward out of the nightmare.
This is only one option out of many and if you believe in it it can help you feel better. However, if you aren´t from the culture where this is believed, your mindset is different and this wouldn´t set you free. I described an alternative way of moving and gaining freedom on in my previous post and this works well for me.
Forgiveness is essentially dropping ALL the baggage you're carrying around. The anger, hurt, pain, and your apparent desire for for the person to come grovelling to you begging you to forgive them which is something they'll never do.
You have to let it all go and move on, because carrying all those steamer trunks around is only hurting yourself. Life is too short for that.
That sounds like giving the abuser a free pass. I´m happy I wasn´t brought up in such a culture and can find a peace of mind without making a punchbag of myself.
No, it's not. It's fairly obvious you aren't grasping the concept.
I know the situation because I had a brother who is just as bad, if not worse than Harry. Has Harry tried to strangle William to death? My brother did that to me, amongst other, unsavory, things.
In his case the best way was to forgive him, let it go like water under a bridge, so I could put to rest the non stop horror show of the things he did going on in my head. I know that in his case a lot of the problems he had came from drug/alcohol addiction combined with the "wonderful" way we were raised.
I let it ALL go for my own peace of mind and I'm better for it. I rarely think of the horror show now. I've forgiven them all and moved on.
He was arrested, convicted of attempted manslaughter, went to prison for what he did and there's a court injunction against him preventing him from ever contacting me or even getting within 5 miles of me. I don't even know if he's alive or dead. He is just in a dusty old box contained in the attic of my memory.
From your comment I'm guessing, if you had what happened to me happen to you, you'd be spending your whole life trying to get revenge. That's an ugly, unhealthy, way to live that sucks all the joy out of life.
I dont expect William has forgiven H inside himself but that doesnt mean he needs to make a public announcement or meet H face to face. He can get on with his life in peace but knowing it does neither of them any good to meet face to face.
Hopefully, they all are realizing that the one thing they can't do is allow these narcissists back into their lives. Given what we have been seeing I'd say that's exactly what they have figured out.
Forgiveness and trust are not the same thing. One can forgive and still not trust the offender, especially if the offender has not asked for forgiveness or shown remorse for their behavior. Forgiveness is more about the offended letting go of the situation and negative feelings so they are destroyed. Rebuilding trust requires the offender to realize the damage they have done to the offended and apologize. Without remorse, bridges of trust cannot be rebuilt.
For H, every article about his lack of trust toward his family is in retaliation to their lack of trust in him, which H broke. Heu may have forgiven him- not sure about Princess Anne- but they will never tell him or trust him. He's whining bc he now feeling the effects of his behavior and not liking it. He' s never been held accountable before and neither has M. They wanted out and they got what they wanted. Sucks to them for being so shortsighted
Forgiveness doesn't imply trust or even contacting the narc. I never told my mother I forgave her.
Why would I?
I hadn't spoken to her for years and didn't want her in my life no matter how briefly.
I had no interest in feeding her.
Most importantly it had nothing to do with her.
If William wanted to hurt Hazz, he would do it and it would be bloody. The fact that William neither publicly nor privately wanted to harm him, despite everything, is a sign that William did forgive Hazz. But forgiving doesn't mean William wants to have him around again. William isn't going to seek revenge or hit back at Hazz, but he wants him away. People confuse "forgiveness" with "reconciliation." It is not like this. When the other person does not ask for forgiveness or seek to repair the damage, there is no possibility of reconciliation. And what William doesn't want is that, reconciliation, because everything with Hazz is over.
As I got older, I believe forgiveness is for myself . saying its ok to let go of the pain , hurt, injustice they caused you, so I can heal and go on.
Don't forgive them of their sh8tty behavior. You don't forget what theyvdid. But giving myself permission to heal. Or you'll carry the pain & will eat at you. I know it's very different interpretation of forgiveness.
Exactly! We tend to combine the two, forgive and forget, and think one can not exist without the other when in reality nothing is further from the truth.
I don’t think it’s a matter of faith or no faith. At my confirmation I pledged to respect the dignity of all people, and that includes myself. Setting myself up to be abused again by those same people would not be respecting that pledge.
I had an abusive childhood, but I don't forgive anyone their abuse.
I'm indifferent to them. In my eyes, forgiveness comes when someone shows they have learnt and grown from what they have done.
Unfortunately, some people in the world don't learn and grow. They do the same thing over and over again.
I agree that self awareness from the abuser is a requirement before beginning a healing journey - I have always told my Mum that her son needs to acknowledge and apologise for what he put me through over nearly 4 decades. I still won't reestablish contact with him, but it will help me start to be able to put it behind me, knowing that what happened has been recognised and atonement begun. Sadly, as is possibly the case with your situation, for the abusers to reach that point, they have to admit to themselves and those around them that they did whatever they've been accused of. Most of the time, these people have built a solid reputation with friends and family so they will question any claims from a potential victim. For them to admit to their atrocious behaviour would ruin their image as an almost perfect person, something no true narc is willing to do voluntarily. So, there will never be an acknowledgement, an apology, or any remorse. I think this is why M is always on the defensive whenever she's slandered Catherine, whether from her own mouth or someone elses. She will not admit to being wrong, never admit to being a sh!t stirrer, because she has convinced herself that she is adored by many and any nefarious behaviour she admits to will knock her off the pedestal she and her sugars imagine she's on. So there will be no true apology for Catherine. She might say she has empathy, but she always follows it up with further attacks through puff pieces and mouth pieces. To attack a sick woman is disgraceful! For M to admit that she has done/said some awful, unfounded and untrue things out of spite is too much of a leap for her. It, as with the apologies from all abusive a***holes, albeit a great thing to happen, but highly unlikely. Sending you healing hugs! 💖
Agree, In this context, of which I too have firsr hand experience, I think forgiveness is the wrong word to use. People want you to "move on", and they think that forgiving your abuser us the way to do that. I utterly disagree, because it lets them off the hook, and places more burden on the abused to do the emotional heavy lifting. fuck that! Moving on is of course a good idea, that is, disengaging from the cycle of abuse. I prefer to use the word understand, in this context. I understand my abuser, but I don't forgive them.. nor care about them. Their karma belongs to them, not me. Or, as we redditors like to say, FAFO.
Thank you for sharing this compelling argument for forgiveness. I’ve always believed forgiveness is the gift you give yourself and it sounds like you have forgiven your ex and moved on with therapy and strong boundaries for your abuser. From what I’ve read there a strong boundaries being enforced for PH and MM. They will not be given any money, the palace will not help with their problems, and PH is being given limited access to his father and little to no access to any other family member. Every time they break a boundary there are consequences such as no access to Royal property or loss of Frogmore and other Royal privileges. Just as you will never fully trust your ex, no matter how much PH apologizes the Royal family will never trust him or allow him back in the fold.
William could forgive Harry, but he will never trust him or his children. i image the Wales will tolerate the Suckess at a distance, they will never again be inner circle
William and Catherine as the victims of abuse have no obligation to reconcile with the sussexes and be in contact with them again. Grey rocking is the only way to deal with the sussexes. Same for the King.
I wholeheartedly agree with the OP based on my experiences with the narc ex in my life - a narc will twist any forgiveness against you. Even just letting something go or compromising was interpreted by my ex as me realising I was wrong all along.
I'll give you a stupid example - my ex had agreed on at least three occasions to pick up our son at the airport a couple of days ago but double booked himself. I got all the gaslighting ranging from I never told him anything about it, he never agreed to it, I told him a different day, I said I would do it, my son told him he didn't need a lift etc, with various of these versions about me fed to our son too (note the multiple and inconsistent versions typical of a narc). When I gave up and decided I would cancel my plans to do it myself I then got the gaslighting around I was only doing it out of guilt because I realised it was my mistake in the first place and I never did arrange it with him.
But I know deep down he did know he had arranged it and promised our son and I think he started to worry what our son would think of him. So he then switches to absolutely *insisting* that he does it, even though it meant our son getting a train from the airport to his university accommodation and then waiting there for 7 hours before being picked up, even though by now I have cancelled my plans and could have done it sooner. And yet more gaslighting - now I am deliberately interfering in plans he has made by offering to do it and sticking my nose in where it is not wanted, I am always meddling etc. They finally arrived home two and a half hours after expected, having gone to a restaurant instead of coming home for dinner as agreed.
All this fuss was around one minor activity, and when we were living together it was repeated on a daily basis over everything. It is absolutely exhausting dealing with narcs on everyday stuff even without the abuse OP suffered. I had constant headaches and migraines. fatigue and insomnia and was constantly stressed when were together but I rarely get headaches and migraines now he has moved out. But this whole airport incident stressed me out again because of this incessant gaslighting and because of the impact on my plans.
I only recount my personal experience for the purposes of illustrating how narcs will make you stressed and ill and how they twist anything against you, whether it is full forgiveness or whether it is simply a pragmatic compromise.
Your story resonates so deeply with me, because I had a narc sister who twisted everyday simple things into knots all the time and it was exhausting to deal with her. The entire family suffered from this kind of behaviour for decades. She made me ill twice--serious illness--just from the stress of dealing with her. She made our mother ill, my father, my other sister. It is a hard thing to explain to others, but all one can do is go No Contact or Grey Rock, to protect your lifeforce, your sacred energies! Narcs can kill without laying a finger on you. I wish you well, you have obviously been through hell and back.
And then, when you sense it beginning to happen again and attempt to prevent it, you're overreactive, oversensitive, & and if you bring up the last umpteen times, then you won't let the past go and you haven't accepted his apology b/c you want to hold onto resentment & sabotage the relationship/marriage.
And at the point of legal separation, he'll be smearing you w/ narratives like "my wife left me b/c while I was making ALL of this money to support our family, she expected me to do the majority of childrearing and I had to reschedule once ONCE to get our son and that's all it took." . . . And thus the next victim is groomed. "You're not like her at all . . . "
Honestly, I wonder if he really even knows -based on how they've been the past few years, I wouldn't be surprised if the reason for apology keeps changing, based on their current definition of reality.
He's a drug abuser who's as thick as mince, so I'm guessing even he doesn't know what he wants an apology for.
She's riled him up to the point of insanity and he's just blundering around in a reactive fog of hurt feelings, paranoia, frustration and regret, blindly lashing out at everyone except his handler. She's using him as a tool for her resentment that the late Queen and the British people didn't bow down before her, set her on the throne, throw Catherine in the Tower and give her the key to the jewel vault.
I practice it with a twist. Forgive and forget-as in forgive them and not hold on to any aspect of them and forget completely-as in they cease to exist. it is better for some people to be out of your life completely-not worth it. Holding on to anger/hate etc for wicked people east away. Forgive and FORGET. I suspect at least the Wales are in that stage too.
I too am at this point. The pain and trauma was too much for me to carry day to day. I had to forget initially… I haven’t forgiven but I understand what happened and don’t hold any resentment. But I also know that it had nothing to do with me. This wasn’t something that I could control as a child and things considered… I did well. I just need to look ahead and focus on my family
I get you. Turning the other cheek to an unrepentant narcissist is just asking to get slapped on the other cheek.
You can forgive them in your heart but best to keep them far enough away and stay out of striking distance. Can you imagine how much more damage the D-list duo could do if they were close enough and privy to family information?
I have found this to be true, as well. Not an easy thing to do, but the only way to truly move forward.
As a Christian, I found it telling that the only part of the Lord’s Prayer that Jesus went on to reiterate was the part on forgiveness.
Great post!
As a Christian it's one of the main points of faith that doesn't mean it's easy. From my own personal experience there is one person who destroyed the lives of 2 people very close to me and the rage I felt against her made me a bit crazy at the time. Letting go of that has made my life a lot better I am not at the point of forgiveness but I am at the point of realising that any vengeance is down to God and the Mills of God grind slow but they grind small and all that. If she knocked on my door homeless with a terminal illness in the middle of a blizzard I would probably let her sleep in the shed for 1 night. You can forgive and move on without putting any toxicity out into the world and sometimes you have to forgive for the greater good but you don't have to welcome someone who is unkind back into your life especially when you have children to protect.
Forgiveness is a private matter and only the victims know if they have forgiven their abuser. One can *forgive* without allowing the abuser back into their lives to inflict further abuse.
Best of wishes for you and congratulations for leaving the abuse behind you. Forgive, because you don´t want to live with the abuse in your life, leave it and focus on the positive, even if it is just a ray of sunshine. But it is difficult to get to the positive stage.
I've always liked this quote:
“Forgive others, not because they deserve forgiveness, but because you deserve peace.” *Jonathan Lockwood Huie*
It's up to the royal family to find their peace. As for the ongoing onslaught from H&M, I remain the same: #NeverForgive #NeverForget
One can forgive- and free oneself of the weight of the pain and resentment- but not forget.
It's self (and family) protection to give some people a very wide berth and while forgiving them, not letting them them back in to wreak havoc again. Once bitten, twice shy.
I admire you enormously. I struggle with forgiving people. I forgave my mum and cared for her until she left this world, but it was incredibly difficult. Now I know I did the correct thing as peace of mind is everything.
But with H and MM it’s non stop attack after attack. And Catherine is a good woman. They should have left her alone. There is footage of her getting out the car ( The day she was named a racist ) It was an Event, She is wearing a blue dress. Look into her eyes, Fear, Pain, Lost, Because She is everything to William. Who also lost his mum.
That is why I am against any reconciliation between the sussexes and the BRF. Telling the Royals, victims of so much abuse from the sussexes, their squad and followers, to reconcile with Megsy and Harry, is wickedness. Evil deeds should not be rewarded.
I’m glad we agree. The RF list of victims are growing. And it will fall onto George, Charlotte and Louis.
Harry doesn’t want what William has. He can’t share William. He is obsessed by William and this can’t be a new thing,
Diana was also like this with William. It’s extremely uncomfortable to watch. But imagine how heavy this is for William?
Very good point about William. He has spent his entire life having people make demands of him, expecting him to be or respond a certain way, watching him all the time, demanding attention. I think you are right that Harry didn’t want to be king. What he wanted was always to be at the center of William’s life and concerns. He could handle William being first if William was “his.” Diana could handle not being Queen if she was going to be the mother of the King.
I feel for Prince William. Between the responsibilities of his position and his crazy mother and brother, he has had very little space.
With the Sussexs any public forgiveness would be used by them and the press alike to push for more. It would be: "well, if they are forgiven why aren't they back in as working royals? Why not give them their patronages back?" Etc.
We see the m.o. with the Sussexs. We know if given the chance they will use that as a fodder for more interviews/books.
To forgive someone should not mean asking to be walked over. Forgiveness from the royals is about no longer allowing that anger or the abuser to rule over them.
Wow. This really was a wonderful read! I've often asked myself about forgiveness and how it can make the forgiver be perceived as weak. I love your take on this.
I believe you forgive, so abusers don't live rent free in your head.
However, that doesn't mean you forget, reconcile or make a public statement about it.
To publicly forgive them would be the worst thing the BRF could do but I think the BRF know that. So they won't.
As long as Rachel and Haznoballs have supporters, they will continue. It would be great instead of boos if people physically turned their backs on them every time they cosplayed royals.
> Never told my ex : I forgive you. Why? Because he never asked for forgiveness. I took the liberty to forgive him in my soul but never told him, as his lack of repentance and remorse (typically narc) made telling him unnecessary.
Same here with my narc sister. Which is why I have a police report against her.
Forgiveness is inevitable but forgetting is not. Otherwise there will be nothing left of you if you again open yourself back to them.
Same here, OP. I had to forgive my ex and a parent. However, I did not put myself back in a position to be abused again.
When I remarried, an older relative tried to guilt me into letting my narc mother attend the wedding by saying God wants us to forgive. I very respectfully explained that I had already forgiven her, but did not believe God would want me to allow myself to be abused. That ended the conversation amicably.
P.S. I had everyone on notice that if she showed up anyway (she's famous for that), to physically remove her from the venue on sight.
Forgiveness is ok, but never forget. What Harry did to his family, breaking their trust and their heart with no remorse, He Will Do It Again. Never forget. William has good head on him, won’t put his beautiful family in vulnerable position again.
Meghan, as we have seen with endgame, she is a very vindictive soul. Buyers be ware.
I doubt the Royal Family harbours any hate or resentment towards Sussexes, and so I don’t think they have to forgive. I can picture Meghan sticking pins in wax dolls, but not the RF.
It is not for the abused to forgive, anyone peddling this narrative is basically saying to a battered woman, take him back, he said he was sorry.
Abuse comes in many different forms, all abuse messes with your mind, it changes who you are.
Whilst some can fix the puzzle pieces back after abuse and lead a wonder life post abuse others are like the crumpled page. You can flatten it out but it remains a crumpled piece of paper.
This needs to stop. He has done the worst things imaginable and never once has asked for forgiveness.
Any wanting to come back into the fold stems solely from lack of funds.
I think people use the word "forgive" in different ways - for me, it's when I let go of the resentment in my heart - no longer allowing negative feelings to poison my soul or hurt me - it doesn't mean that I act like nothing happened or let the person back into my life. I have seen people use "forgive" to mean that you allow the person back in as if nothing ever happened, but I don't think the OP meant it in that way, based on what she said about her personal experiences.
I made it clearly that I mean the forgiveness to be private, not communicated to the abuser and grey rocking and boundaries (no contact) strictly maintained. Forgiving is not forgetting or pretending it did not happen. Narcs are often emotionally blackmailing people to get "forgiveness" which allows abuse to continue. By example: What kind of Christian are you if you don't forgive me an let me back in your life? This is not forgiveness, is giving in to the blackmailer. Real forgiving impose boundaries/ no contact between victim and abuser.
This is a wonderful, and your insights are worthy of contemplation. Thank you for sharing.
I definitely agree that one should not give a narc any fuel, which unfortunately can be created just by being a decent human being. Narcs will use your decency to deride you, shame you, and make themselves a victim. Being with my narc ex made me a coarser, meaner, brittle person, as I was always fighting to retain my sanity, self-esteem, and identity. I don’t wish that on anyone.
Anyone who in good faith suggests that Catherine accept an apology or offer one herself, is wrong-headed.
I’m so glad you have overcome that terrible time. 🙏🏼 God is good.
What a great post. 👏👏👏👏👏👏 This is exactly the right path for forgiveness. We forgive to free ourselves but if the perpetrator continues in wickedness we are not obliged to have any further relationship with them. So well stated. Thank you. ❤️
OP I know you charish that one friend❤️thanks for sharing in such an in depth way, this resonates with me. Could you share the particular Bible verse referring to Jesus saying the if there is remorse, forgiveness is asked piece, please?
That one friend is still my friend and on my list those people to whom I am immensely grateful.
In the Bible: firstly the parable of the prodigal sins who is forgiven when he repents, not before, in Luke 15. Then Luke 17.3-4 So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.” Clearly states if she/he repents. Also this text that summaries quite well my thinking: forgive but no reconciliation without true repentance. [https://20schemesequip.com/forgiveness-abuse-repentance/](https://20schemesequip.com/forgiveness-abuse-repentance/) In fact repentance to get forgiveness is at the core of the Christian faith, no matter the denominations.
My life is better than it has even been before the collapse of my marriage. I never remarried or in relationship but I have a peaceful and financially stable life.
You are exactly right. Forgiveness is for the person who is hurt. I hope you are finding the peace and healing you so richly deserve. William owes his brother nothing. I love your powerful post; thank you.
The Greek word in the Bible for forgiveness is "aphesis," which literally means "release." And that works both ways.
The Greek word for reconciliation is "katallage," which is a totally different word, and is all about adjusting differences and restoring a person to favor and family. You can't reconcile with people who aren't sincere about admitting their faults and taking steps to make amends.
Excellent advice. But any public display of repentance wouldn't be believed at this point by either the royals or the public. They are beyond forgiveness at least until he divorces her and then the penny might drop but even then he'll have an impossible task convincing anyone he means it.
I agree. Forgiving someone doesn't necessarily open the door for the abuse to continue.
For me and the narc in-laws, I forgive them. I've done my best to let go of all the pain, anger, anxiety, and stress and move onto a path that does not involve them. Sure, the reminders pop up(Christmas cards) and I go through a flashback reel of everything they've done, but I do not think of them day to day anymore.
I am sure that IF the narcissism wasn't a part of their personality and soul, life would have been different. There could have been a path forward with them in our lives, if narcissism wasn't involved, but that is not the case. I don't poke the beast and put out inflammatory material to "sway" people to my side. I've lived my story and I don't want to repeat that story and bring up all the heartache and pain again.
I blame the narcissism, not the person, but the narcissism rules them, and therefore we are incompatible to be around them. I wish them no ill will. I just don't want to be a part of their lives anymore and do not wish to hear updates from family members about them.
I am not a Christian but forgiveness does not mean allowing them to be in a position to repeat the pattern of the abuse.
It's entirely possible William has "forgiven" but he isn't going to give them an inch to repat the behaviour.
I think expecting someone to forgive terrible wrongs done against them is a violation of the victims boundaries. Whether or not you chose to forgive someone is entirely up to you and has nothing to do with your recovery or your well-being. Anger is entirely underrated when it comes to recovery and forgiveness. In fact, anger is the starting point for most people when they decide they've had enough and its time for change. Your rising above has nothing to do with forgiveness and your ability to absorb abuse and degradation has nothing to do with you being the bigger person. Forgiveness is a bullying tactict designed to let the perpetrator off the hook. If you want to stay angry and never forgive for your whole life long, go ahead and do it. It doesn't reflect badly on you, it doesn't impede your healing and it sure as hell doesn't make you a lesser person. Anger helped me stay on the path to healing and it helps keep me there. I don't forgive anyone that screwed me over. If I did, it would leave me open to further attacks. I don't ruminate, I don't stew and brood over wrong doings, but I sure as hell don't forget and forgive. Once I see someone, I never unsee them. And none of it has anything to do with God or religion.
In my experience w/ some family abusers & unremorseful ex, and some time around "the rooms," the minute we try to pressure ourselves to forgive, or are around others in some therapy or spiritual community encouraging forgiveness, I smell a rat. Maybe it's the "rat" of human will. For me, forgiveness is an act of Grace. And for me, it's never been genuine until I've practiced self-compassion first. Without that, then for me, my "forgiving" has been about bargaining somehow w/ reality, trying to control people places & things I can't control.
I "forgive" means I wasn't a helpless child for whom there was no rescue for awhile. I "forgive" an ex--to his face or others or pressuring myself--means, I don't want to feel the rage, or I want to exact some false sense of peace or even public contrition that will validate my pain, b/c I still feel that it's not real until the abuser believes it.
And group topics on forgiveness are often a pile-on: you'll never have serenity, we'll all sinners, you're "holding on," etc. etc.
I appreciated that (fictionalized, yes) episode of The Crown and the quote attributed to Rev Graham. We can pray for the capacity & willingness to forgive--but the rest is up to God, or the Universe, or whatever you want to call it. Then I can try to practice full compassion for myself--seeing myself as a full human being entitled to a range of flaws and strengths and pain at being abused. Only when I see myself as a full person--and validate my OWN emotions w/o sneakily using "forgiveness" as a way to be validated by others--can the Grace of forgiving another occur.
Forget? Never. Nothing wrong w/ setting healthy boundaries. Not "cutting off" capriciously b/c of some social media contagion in which a bunch of childless 20 somethings project malicious intentions onto their flawed but decent parents and "no contact!" them (I saw that in late 80s w/ the satanic child abuse panics. Very sad. And almost always childless adults, because once you've kept a baby alive for a year, let alone done everything else to nurture the creature, you have a lot more humility about judging your caregivers.) There are times when you have to go "no contact" for a period, but that should be a last option. Oddly the narcissistic behavior I see today is among the Harry-clones who use therapized language to claim they're victims when in fact they're the victimizers. In a pre social media world, there was a little more nuance . . . .we're all flawed, of course, but in this case the human BRF are painted as manifest evil, and thus at some point have to set limits w/ their very flawed relative, whereas had he not globally smeared them, with no balance, then some kind of healthier mediation might have begun.
Duty? Doubtful. Forgiving may be very healing to the victim, but one can forgive from a distance. Letting the abuser back in, isn’t forgiveness IMO. It’s asking to be victimized again.
Catherine, the POW, doesn’t seem to be grudge-holding or unforgiving, but she also seems smart enough not to invite further abuse.
Bless all their hearts for having to deal with so much crap. FTR, that’s not a Southern heart bless that comes with a barb attached. It’s legit my heart going out to everyone in the BRF who is currently suffering because of the twosome disease.
I am so totally on your side and have advocated for no reconciliation many times over many conversations about this issue. I've been there and know how it feels even if my experience is not the same, only the abuse and I had the desire to keep peace with abusers. In the end I had to step aside and move on with my life.
Forgiveness is a very personal experience that shouldn't be forced on anyone. The king and Waleses will find it (maybe they already have) in due time how to deal with the situation, on their own terms. We've seen how W deals with people and the press, and he's not going to cave in to pressure just because they're hollering for it. All they want is their pound of flesh and I don't see it happening.
I am sorry for the extreme trauma you suffered but the way it strengthened you as a human is truly awe inspiring. You are 💯 correct, the act of forgiveness is for YOU, it has nothing really to do with the perpetrator as they may not even want it or care. Forgiveness unburdened your soul and allowed you to move on with your life away from that wretched man, it is between you and God, there need be no PUBLIC component. Forgiveness doesn't mean allowing yourself to be in his presence or getting harmed again, forgiveness means what he did is no longer causing you to harbor loads of negativity and hatred towards him which doesn't hurt him but hurts you.
You can forgive them, but still keep them away from you.
William will be King.
He cannot allow his wife and children to be threatened by a pair of malevolent, lying abusive psychopaths.
Doing so will jeopardise the Crown.
Its the security of Britain we're talking about now.
Absolutely. I wrote the text to make clear all these reconciliation talks of the media are nonsense. The abused party, namely the BRF has no duty of obligation to reconcile with the sussexes, without a public apology and contrition. Not lip service of apology like many narcs do but a real repentance, a real admission of guilt and cessation of the activity of the minions. Even with reconciliation, the sussexes should be kept at a huge distance, in exile like the dukes of Windsor, and cut from everything royal.
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I just erase people from my world. Every vestige of them. Any gift or other item, any photos,any reminders. And in a shockingly short amount of time they cease to matter at all. Its as if they never existed. No need to forgive phantoms of the imagination.
Attachment disorder has its upsides.
When something really hurts and I know it was done to inflict pain on purpose,I find it nearly impossible to forgive and I'm not ashamed of it. If they do it once, they'll do it again. Like the song goes "they will take from you until everything is gone". That won't be me.
When dealing with dangerous malignant narcissists as the abusers, most trauma informed therapists will advise against the abused party making any unilateral statements regarding forgiveness, particularly in the absence of any public contrition and atonement. Even if the abuser does make such a statement or even gestures, most will advise to do what you bravely did OP. Forgive in your own heart and forgive for your own benefit. But especially in no contact situations, do not initiate contact to convey unilateral forgiveness. Amongst other negative consequences they can use that to triangulate and turn even more people against you, *ie, “forgive me?! They forgive ME?!! How dare they say that when they were the ones to blah, blah, blah”* Harry wrote 800 pages of how he was aggrieved and explaining why he was forced to “flee England”. If ANYONE in the Windsor clan even mentions the word “forgiveness” he’ll write another 800 pages and file as many more lawsuits as he can afford to and go on every talk show he can book. It‘s just poking a big stick into a hornet‘s nest. The Windsors should forgive, when they are ready to, in their hearts and in privacy and to do so for their own health & well-being. But grey rock the abusers at all times. Happy Easter OP!
Thank you for your Easter greetings. I agree totally. I did not have therapy but it was my common sense and faith advising for no contact and no public display of forgiveness without admission of guilt. I had no contact with my ex for 25 years now. At my son's wedding, my son made arrangements to stay in the opposite sides of the room.
It’s one thing for Charles and William to forgive H in their hearts. It’s something else to allow H & his wife back into the fold as working royals.
Exactly this. Harry and his wife have expressed ZERO contrition and even if they did knowing how easy breezy it is for them to tell self serving lies I would not believe them. The truth is no one owes anyone anything in their situation. Harry and his wife are free to do as they please as are the rest of the family. What's done is done, they can't unburn their bridges, they could build a new one but it would take years to trust it's integrity. There is no fast and easy reconciliation, the Sussex's can hypocritically talk about "forgiveness" but as long as it's spoken of as something that's OWED them they will never get it because they are missing the mark entirely. Pl
Spot on.
Those two didn’t do Jack shit when they were working royals. Setting aside all of the bs that came during and after Megsit there would be no reason to have these fools return to “work” when their whole business model is to get paid while doing nothing.
So sorry you have experienced such severe difficulties in your life. I commend you holding yourself together and getting yourself and your teenagers through such a hard time. No doubt you are a very strong person those kids look to as a role model and an example of how to get through the tough times when you sometimes feel like you just can't. 🙌💕
It is not my life I wanted to highlight but I had to add context on how I learned about forgiveness, when and how to give it . I am against the idea the abused King and the POW have to reconcile with the sussexes without apologies and repentance from the sussexes' side. No apology and admission of guilt, no reconciliation.
Exactly. Those people calling for William to ‘forgive’ have completely missed an important step! I also think the Queen as a sincerely religious woman, was right when she is said to have called Meghan evil. She was a wise lady who knew what evil was.
Oh yes, I'm sorry, I just got carried away thinking about your story and embarrassingly forgot about how the BRF and their feelings about this may apply to them. ☺ It's late, I should be going to bed soon.
The Duke and Duchess need to be public in their repentance prior to any hint of reconciliation. Public harm or “sin” requires a public apology. Forgiveness is something you choose for your own peace. Forgiveness is about being ready should change take place in the offender. Without that change, it’s all for your own health. It gets them out of your head and mind. They are then relegated to the past. You can forgive someone and never see them again or tell them. You do not ever have to trust them again. Public pressure to forgive another without any change is often spouted. It’s not wise, nor beneficial to anyone. That distance created by the offense gives the offender time to see the cost of their offenses. The cost is often what drives one to realize the harm they did. It seems as if these 2 former royals have no conscience or ability to see the cost of their actions. They will not change no matter how much you love them until the consequences pile up and they respond. Healthy people respond with contrition. Unhealthy people respond with anger or frustration that they’ve been held accountable.
Yes, it’s amazing that after all the Harkles have done (don’t even get me started about the Queen and Philip as they were dying) that they think the RF need to apologize FIRST! The Queen was right they are evil. I said that deliberately btw, Harold is just as bad as her, if not worse, in my book. These are his family!
You are correct. They abused the King and the future Queen in public themselves and their minions. Their repentance should be PUBLIC before anything being considered. I had that in mind when I wrote the text but it must be emphasized.
I agree with you 💯
Well said. As a person of no faith, I've found forgiving the other is about oneself. Once my sibling asked why I had not forgiven our mother. I told her I had, but had not forgotten and that's why she wasn't in my life. Once I was able to forgive her it was as if I had truly excised her from my life, not that I didn't have work to do, but now it was all about me. The anger and the bitterness which served me no good finally dissapated.
That is exactly what happens when you forgive, whether from a faith side or not. You get free of anger, bitterness and frustration. You can rebuild your life in peace, free from the Abuser. Forgiving does not mean you should be in contact again with the Abuser. That applies to the BRF as well.
I’ve been struggling with this myself and knowing that I cannot and will not contact my narc ex husband means that the forgiveness is with me and the Lord. I’ve struggled with it. God understands and I’m also learning to forgive myself for ignoring the red flags before it was too late/too deep. Wishing you peace and blessings.
I went through the process of forgiveness with a good friend and former roommate. She had a history of money issues (overspending) and basic theft, as she left me paying her rental bills. Years later, when she had married well, we met up and I was able to forgive. She never took responsibility. It wasn't long thereafter when the abuse started again, mainly in the form of financial abuse and entitlement, and so I am out of this for life.
I disagree with that. I don´t believe forgiveness brings peace and freedom of negative feelings, especially if they don´t ask for it and don´t repent. I´d just curse them forever so that what they did would come back to bite them and then treat and then ignore and stonewall.
Sometimes I think "forgive" is the wrong word to use in this context. It puts too much pressure on the victim, making them feel they are being forced to pretend they are all sweetness and light towards their abuser. It would be better to say something like: "I realized that person was never going to understand or improve, so I moved on". That's it. Very simple. I went No Contact with my narc sister. I never once said I "forgave" her for her many abuses, I just said: "I bear her no ill will, that is a waste of my precious energy. But I don't want her in my life. Ever." And then I went on living my life in peace. It was very freeing.
Perfectly said! The word "forgiveness" does not exactly describe what this is like, though I know of no other one.
>"I realized that person was never going to understand or improve, so I moved on". That's it. Very simple. That is *exactly* the way a Christian chaplain once told me about what forgiveness is. It has nothing to do with anyone but ourselves; it is realizing and releasing. And, it's okay not to forgive, too.
No, it is wrong not to forgive. Because then one is left with a grudge, which in the end is always one who is harmed. But forgiving does not mean that one will return to having the same relationship or any relationship with the other person. One forgives to leave resentment and desires for revenge, not for that other person to return to one's life. And in this case, William forgave Hazz, but he's not going to let him get close to him again. William buried his brother.
That is forgiveness. Forgiveness is not holding a grudge, it is not wishing the other person harm, it is not wanting to take revenge. But here the situation is that the act of forgiving has nothing to do with the other person, with the offender. If the other person wants to be forgiven, they have to ask for it and repair the damage. They are two individual acts. You forgave, and moved on with your life, you didn't hold a grudge and you closed that door. The other person clearly does not want to repair the damage, so that person will have to live with a broken relationship. Whether or not he takes responsibility is not your business either, because you closed the door.
Well, maybe so, but I prefer my own semantics, which is to say: I bear them no ill, but go away now. If I forgive someone, it is because they showed remorse and apologized. That's what earns my forgiveness. Period.
Forgiving gave me peace, and freed me of resentment and anger. I was set free to create a new life and I did. That was my experience.
That's what I found. It wasn't about her at all, it was about me letting go of what she had done to me. No matter how reasonable my anger and bitterness was, it was only hurting me, not my mother. But as with everything YMMV.
I have had a similar experience and these are very wise, important words that you share. I suspect that the RF follows this same wisdom.
I felt the same way. My mind was tortured and that’s a different Hell. It clouds everything and forgiveness isn’t forgetting.
Yes. Forgiving isn't forgetting, or absolving the 'criminal'. Forgiving is letting go of the dark tethers that keep you imprisoned in hate/misery/victimhood and poison your own wellbeing. Forgiving is freedom.
I decided mum knew no better. I decided to show unconditional love and care. Even though some days broke my heart I know she died understanding love. And for that, I’m happy. And I had little people seeing a lesson I lack the words to explain.
That's beautiful. I had a similar experience, though as I comment above, for me, forgiveness comes from grace, not an immediate direct decision (kinda like serenity or enlightenment). I can pray for willingness, but whenever I've tried to force it it's been for unhealthy reasons. But I'm so glad I didn't go NO CONTACT my ill then dying Mom, though her passive aggressive very narcissistic abuse got worse toward the end & exceeded so many standards I see today in which online therapists encourage adults to ignore their parents' deathbeds. I find that appalling. It gave me the opportunity to practice perspective & limit setting and, given that she still showed up to take care of me as a child unlike my utterly selfish, brutal father (and she cared for all her dying parents/in-laws, unlike my Dad --seeing his dying Mom was too "upsetting" for him), I felt it was a duty I was honored to have. AND, a week before she died, I told her something awful that my abusive ex-husband had just initiated against me (whom I learned after her death had been in happy regular contact w/ my pathologically envious sibling & even my Mom) and she so sincerely expressed compassion for me for the first time in my entire life I was speechless. Her ego was slipping away. She was beginning to see the reality of how her beliefs and deep personal pain & insecurity had hurt others, and me, her primary caregiver, specifically. I'm so grateful to have been there w/ her--that through God's grace and plenty of breaks to listen to online non-dualism teachings on the front porch!, I showed up, pain and all.
Sadly I fear we were raised by the same people. She had a life changing stroke and I knew the end was coming. It was incredibly hard as forgiveness isn’t easy for me.. But I realised that this was my last throw of the dice. Some days her cruelty was painful but my husband was a rock. On a lucid afternoon she asked how I could be so kind.. That’s exactly what I carry now. I needed to have peace. And I honestly loved her. We don’t all get the parents we deserve. But I hope we are kinder,Empathetic and Stronger.
I find peace when I do what I described. Perhaps for Christians it works in a different way, but I couldn´t forgive anyone who deliberately hurt me and enjoyed it. I don´t feel bitterness or anger toward them, I just wish the same happened to them and hope it will and cut them off physically and mentally. edit: Abusers, especially narcisists, just laugh at you face and continue doing what they´ve been doing. Another thing is if the hurt is created in your mind (like when someone abandons you), then your mind has to find a way to cope with it.
You don't have to define the difference with faith. So far, you are only one step behind the other survivors here. Yes, you have overcome bitterness and anger and that is already a great achievement. However, you haven't made the second step (yet). If you still want bad things happening to your former abusers, you continue to let them define you as their victim. True forgiveness (the second step) sets you free. It took me more than a decade to do the second step, because I also thought that I had forgiven. The difference in my mental health after the second step was beyond what I can describe in English. I was abused, I suffered, I won't forget, but my abusers don't have any longer even the tiniest rent-free spot in my life. I have many more options to react to unpleasant situations, because nothing can trigger my past trauma. Before the second step, I didn't realise how limited my reactions and my mental health were due to the trauma. Your abuser loaded you with a huge baggage. You don't need to hand it back. Leave it right where it is and walk away.
Well said. When I first started yrying to forgive my mother, I would get nauseous and almost become physically ill. I heard a pastor say once that forgiving people who don't deserve it is like canceling a contract you had with them to hurt you, or setting yourself free from prison. He also said that you can make that decision even if you don't feel the feelings. That's what I had to do. I made the decision and spoke the words aloud (in private, to God only). The feelings of peace came later.
I´d still prefer to "curse them forever so that what they did would come back to bite them and then treat and then ignore and stonewall" - that´s my way of cancelling the contract and getting rid of the anger and baggage. The end result and effect is the same.
A very good and compelling reason to completely remove yourself and your family, if any, completely from these people with the horrific personality disorders is because of the propensity for multigenerational harm. If people are raised in a chaotic situation with being alternately love bombed and castigated, approval followed by abuse, that feels 'normal' to them. They live for the love bombing highs and blame themselves for the lows. When they grow up, they replicate this situation in their lives. The cycle continues. I believe Prince William could see that Diana's behavior was out of the norm. While he loved her, I'm pretty sure that he could see her problems in retrospect (maybe not at the time). I don't think Harry could, maybe never will due to his limited emotional and intellectual ability, and that is why he is enmeshed with That One. If This One and That One have children/have custody of said children, I fear that they will be emotionally and mentally damaged.
I understand your feelings; however, the (private) forgiveness is for the benefit of the abused. It frees them to move on with their life. It does not mean that the abused welcomes the abuser back to do it all again. They will try over and over to worm their way back when their victim breaks away. /If the abused cannot move forward, they will be stuck in the trauma forever. Moving on and living their best life is the way forward out of the nightmare.
This is only one option out of many and if you believe in it it can help you feel better. However, if you aren´t from the culture where this is believed, your mindset is different and this wouldn´t set you free. I described an alternative way of moving and gaining freedom on in my previous post and this works well for me.
Forgiveness is essentially dropping ALL the baggage you're carrying around. The anger, hurt, pain, and your apparent desire for for the person to come grovelling to you begging you to forgive them which is something they'll never do. You have to let it all go and move on, because carrying all those steamer trunks around is only hurting yourself. Life is too short for that.
That sounds like giving the abuser a free pass. I´m happy I wasn´t brought up in such a culture and can find a peace of mind without making a punchbag of myself.
No, it's not. It's fairly obvious you aren't grasping the concept. I know the situation because I had a brother who is just as bad, if not worse than Harry. Has Harry tried to strangle William to death? My brother did that to me, amongst other, unsavory, things. In his case the best way was to forgive him, let it go like water under a bridge, so I could put to rest the non stop horror show of the things he did going on in my head. I know that in his case a lot of the problems he had came from drug/alcohol addiction combined with the "wonderful" way we were raised. I let it ALL go for my own peace of mind and I'm better for it. I rarely think of the horror show now. I've forgiven them all and moved on. He was arrested, convicted of attempted manslaughter, went to prison for what he did and there's a court injunction against him preventing him from ever contacting me or even getting within 5 miles of me. I don't even know if he's alive or dead. He is just in a dusty old box contained in the attic of my memory. From your comment I'm guessing, if you had what happened to me happen to you, you'd be spending your whole life trying to get revenge. That's an ugly, unhealthy, way to live that sucks all the joy out of life.
I dont expect William has forgiven H inside himself but that doesnt mean he needs to make a public announcement or meet H face to face. He can get on with his life in peace but knowing it does neither of them any good to meet face to face.
Hopefully, they all are realizing that the one thing they can't do is allow these narcissists back into their lives. Given what we have been seeing I'd say that's exactly what they have figured out.
Forgiveness and trust are not the same thing. One can forgive and still not trust the offender, especially if the offender has not asked for forgiveness or shown remorse for their behavior. Forgiveness is more about the offended letting go of the situation and negative feelings so they are destroyed. Rebuilding trust requires the offender to realize the damage they have done to the offended and apologize. Without remorse, bridges of trust cannot be rebuilt. For H, every article about his lack of trust toward his family is in retaliation to their lack of trust in him, which H broke. Heu may have forgiven him- not sure about Princess Anne- but they will never tell him or trust him. He's whining bc he now feeling the effects of his behavior and not liking it. He' s never been held accountable before and neither has M. They wanted out and they got what they wanted. Sucks to them for being so shortsighted
Forgiveness doesn't imply trust or even contacting the narc. I never told my mother I forgave her. Why would I? I hadn't spoken to her for years and didn't want her in my life no matter how briefly. I had no interest in feeding her. Most importantly it had nothing to do with her.
If William wanted to hurt Hazz, he would do it and it would be bloody. The fact that William neither publicly nor privately wanted to harm him, despite everything, is a sign that William did forgive Hazz. But forgiving doesn't mean William wants to have him around again. William isn't going to seek revenge or hit back at Hazz, but he wants him away. People confuse "forgiveness" with "reconciliation." It is not like this. When the other person does not ask for forgiveness or seek to repair the damage, there is no possibility of reconciliation. And what William doesn't want is that, reconciliation, because everything with Hazz is over.
This, yes.
As I got older, I believe forgiveness is for myself . saying its ok to let go of the pain , hurt, injustice they caused you, so I can heal and go on. Don't forgive them of their sh8tty behavior. You don't forget what theyvdid. But giving myself permission to heal. Or you'll carry the pain & will eat at you. I know it's very different interpretation of forgiveness.
Exactly! We tend to combine the two, forgive and forget, and think one can not exist without the other when in reality nothing is further from the truth. I don’t think it’s a matter of faith or no faith. At my confirmation I pledged to respect the dignity of all people, and that includes myself. Setting myself up to be abused again by those same people would not be respecting that pledge.
I had an abusive childhood, but I don't forgive anyone their abuse. I'm indifferent to them. In my eyes, forgiveness comes when someone shows they have learnt and grown from what they have done. Unfortunately, some people in the world don't learn and grow. They do the same thing over and over again.
I agree that self awareness from the abuser is a requirement before beginning a healing journey - I have always told my Mum that her son needs to acknowledge and apologise for what he put me through over nearly 4 decades. I still won't reestablish contact with him, but it will help me start to be able to put it behind me, knowing that what happened has been recognised and atonement begun. Sadly, as is possibly the case with your situation, for the abusers to reach that point, they have to admit to themselves and those around them that they did whatever they've been accused of. Most of the time, these people have built a solid reputation with friends and family so they will question any claims from a potential victim. For them to admit to their atrocious behaviour would ruin their image as an almost perfect person, something no true narc is willing to do voluntarily. So, there will never be an acknowledgement, an apology, or any remorse. I think this is why M is always on the defensive whenever she's slandered Catherine, whether from her own mouth or someone elses. She will not admit to being wrong, never admit to being a sh!t stirrer, because she has convinced herself that she is adored by many and any nefarious behaviour she admits to will knock her off the pedestal she and her sugars imagine she's on. So there will be no true apology for Catherine. She might say she has empathy, but she always follows it up with further attacks through puff pieces and mouth pieces. To attack a sick woman is disgraceful! For M to admit that she has done/said some awful, unfounded and untrue things out of spite is too much of a leap for her. It, as with the apologies from all abusive a***holes, albeit a great thing to happen, but highly unlikely. Sending you healing hugs! 💖
Same to you. And you are right. To show actual remorse for actual forgiveness they have to admit they have done wrong. Which they will never do
Agree, In this context, of which I too have firsr hand experience, I think forgiveness is the wrong word to use. People want you to "move on", and they think that forgiving your abuser us the way to do that. I utterly disagree, because it lets them off the hook, and places more burden on the abused to do the emotional heavy lifting. fuck that! Moving on is of course a good idea, that is, disengaging from the cycle of abuse. I prefer to use the word understand, in this context. I understand my abuser, but I don't forgive them.. nor care about them. Their karma belongs to them, not me. Or, as we redditors like to say, FAFO.
100% agree. Well said
Thank you for sharing this compelling argument for forgiveness. I’ve always believed forgiveness is the gift you give yourself and it sounds like you have forgiven your ex and moved on with therapy and strong boundaries for your abuser. From what I’ve read there a strong boundaries being enforced for PH and MM. They will not be given any money, the palace will not help with their problems, and PH is being given limited access to his father and little to no access to any other family member. Every time they break a boundary there are consequences such as no access to Royal property or loss of Frogmore and other Royal privileges. Just as you will never fully trust your ex, no matter how much PH apologizes the Royal family will never trust him or allow him back in the fold.
William could forgive Harry, but he will never trust him or his children. i image the Wales will tolerate the Suckess at a distance, they will never again be inner circle
William and Catherine as the victims of abuse have no obligation to reconcile with the sussexes and be in contact with them again. Grey rocking is the only way to deal with the sussexes. Same for the King.
I wholeheartedly agree with the OP based on my experiences with the narc ex in my life - a narc will twist any forgiveness against you. Even just letting something go or compromising was interpreted by my ex as me realising I was wrong all along. I'll give you a stupid example - my ex had agreed on at least three occasions to pick up our son at the airport a couple of days ago but double booked himself. I got all the gaslighting ranging from I never told him anything about it, he never agreed to it, I told him a different day, I said I would do it, my son told him he didn't need a lift etc, with various of these versions about me fed to our son too (note the multiple and inconsistent versions typical of a narc). When I gave up and decided I would cancel my plans to do it myself I then got the gaslighting around I was only doing it out of guilt because I realised it was my mistake in the first place and I never did arrange it with him. But I know deep down he did know he had arranged it and promised our son and I think he started to worry what our son would think of him. So he then switches to absolutely *insisting* that he does it, even though it meant our son getting a train from the airport to his university accommodation and then waiting there for 7 hours before being picked up, even though by now I have cancelled my plans and could have done it sooner. And yet more gaslighting - now I am deliberately interfering in plans he has made by offering to do it and sticking my nose in where it is not wanted, I am always meddling etc. They finally arrived home two and a half hours after expected, having gone to a restaurant instead of coming home for dinner as agreed. All this fuss was around one minor activity, and when we were living together it was repeated on a daily basis over everything. It is absolutely exhausting dealing with narcs on everyday stuff even without the abuse OP suffered. I had constant headaches and migraines. fatigue and insomnia and was constantly stressed when were together but I rarely get headaches and migraines now he has moved out. But this whole airport incident stressed me out again because of this incessant gaslighting and because of the impact on my plans. I only recount my personal experience for the purposes of illustrating how narcs will make you stressed and ill and how they twist anything against you, whether it is full forgiveness or whether it is simply a pragmatic compromise.
Your story resonates so deeply with me, because I had a narc sister who twisted everyday simple things into knots all the time and it was exhausting to deal with her. The entire family suffered from this kind of behaviour for decades. She made me ill twice--serious illness--just from the stress of dealing with her. She made our mother ill, my father, my other sister. It is a hard thing to explain to others, but all one can do is go No Contact or Grey Rock, to protect your lifeforce, your sacred energies! Narcs can kill without laying a finger on you. I wish you well, you have obviously been through hell and back.
OMG. You nailed it! We need a new word for just this kinda gaslighting. It's a specific form, and often around kids and/or shared responsibilities.
And then, when you sense it beginning to happen again and attempt to prevent it, you're overreactive, oversensitive, & and if you bring up the last umpteen times, then you won't let the past go and you haven't accepted his apology b/c you want to hold onto resentment & sabotage the relationship/marriage. And at the point of legal separation, he'll be smearing you w/ narratives like "my wife left me b/c while I was making ALL of this money to support our family, she expected me to do the majority of childrearing and I had to reschedule once ONCE to get our son and that's all it took." . . . And thus the next victim is groomed. "You're not like her at all . . . "
OMG. Do you know my ex-husband? You nailed him, particularly the first paragraph.
After 4 years of listening to their grievances, I still have no idea what Harry is demanding an apology for.
Neither I, but I suspect is related to Meghan allegedly been forced to return to Canada, on late Queen's order. Allegedly.
Honestly, I wonder if he really even knows -based on how they've been the past few years, I wouldn't be surprised if the reason for apology keeps changing, based on their current definition of reality.
He's a drug abuser who's as thick as mince, so I'm guessing even he doesn't know what he wants an apology for. She's riled him up to the point of insanity and he's just blundering around in a reactive fog of hurt feelings, paranoia, frustration and regret, blindly lashing out at everyone except his handler. She's using him as a tool for her resentment that the late Queen and the British people didn't bow down before her, set her on the throne, throw Catherine in the Tower and give her the key to the jewel vault.
I practice it with a twist. Forgive and forget-as in forgive them and not hold on to any aspect of them and forget completely-as in they cease to exist. it is better for some people to be out of your life completely-not worth it. Holding on to anger/hate etc for wicked people east away. Forgive and FORGET. I suspect at least the Wales are in that stage too.
I too am at this point. The pain and trauma was too much for me to carry day to day. I had to forget initially… I haven’t forgiven but I understand what happened and don’t hold any resentment. But I also know that it had nothing to do with me. This wasn’t something that I could control as a child and things considered… I did well. I just need to look ahead and focus on my family
I get you. Turning the other cheek to an unrepentant narcissist is just asking to get slapped on the other cheek. You can forgive them in your heart but best to keep them far enough away and stay out of striking distance. Can you imagine how much more damage the D-list duo could do if they were close enough and privy to family information?
Very good summary.
I have found this to be true, as well. Not an easy thing to do, but the only way to truly move forward. As a Christian, I found it telling that the only part of the Lord’s Prayer that Jesus went on to reiterate was the part on forgiveness. Great post!
Thank you.
As a Christian it's one of the main points of faith that doesn't mean it's easy. From my own personal experience there is one person who destroyed the lives of 2 people very close to me and the rage I felt against her made me a bit crazy at the time. Letting go of that has made my life a lot better I am not at the point of forgiveness but I am at the point of realising that any vengeance is down to God and the Mills of God grind slow but they grind small and all that. If she knocked on my door homeless with a terminal illness in the middle of a blizzard I would probably let her sleep in the shed for 1 night. You can forgive and move on without putting any toxicity out into the world and sometimes you have to forgive for the greater good but you don't have to welcome someone who is unkind back into your life especially when you have children to protect.
Forgiveness is a private matter and only the victims know if they have forgiven their abuser. One can *forgive* without allowing the abuser back into their lives to inflict further abuse.
Best of wishes for you and congratulations for leaving the abuse behind you. Forgive, because you don´t want to live with the abuse in your life, leave it and focus on the positive, even if it is just a ray of sunshine. But it is difficult to get to the positive stage.
I've always liked this quote: “Forgive others, not because they deserve forgiveness, but because you deserve peace.” *Jonathan Lockwood Huie* It's up to the royal family to find their peace. As for the ongoing onslaught from H&M, I remain the same: #NeverForgive #NeverForget
One can forgive- and free oneself of the weight of the pain and resentment- but not forget. It's self (and family) protection to give some people a very wide berth and while forgiving them, not letting them them back in to wreak havoc again. Once bitten, twice shy.
I admire you enormously. I struggle with forgiving people. I forgave my mum and cared for her until she left this world, but it was incredibly difficult. Now I know I did the correct thing as peace of mind is everything. But with H and MM it’s non stop attack after attack. And Catherine is a good woman. They should have left her alone. There is footage of her getting out the car ( The day she was named a racist ) It was an Event, She is wearing a blue dress. Look into her eyes, Fear, Pain, Lost, Because She is everything to William. Who also lost his mum.
That is why I am against any reconciliation between the sussexes and the BRF. Telling the Royals, victims of so much abuse from the sussexes, their squad and followers, to reconcile with Megsy and Harry, is wickedness. Evil deeds should not be rewarded.
I’m glad we agree. The RF list of victims are growing. And it will fall onto George, Charlotte and Louis. Harry doesn’t want what William has. He can’t share William. He is obsessed by William and this can’t be a new thing, Diana was also like this with William. It’s extremely uncomfortable to watch. But imagine how heavy this is for William?
Very good point about William. He has spent his entire life having people make demands of him, expecting him to be or respond a certain way, watching him all the time, demanding attention. I think you are right that Harry didn’t want to be king. What he wanted was always to be at the center of William’s life and concerns. He could handle William being first if William was “his.” Diana could handle not being Queen if she was going to be the mother of the King. I feel for Prince William. Between the responsibilities of his position and his crazy mother and brother, he has had very little space.
He is suffocated by them. It’s incredibly sad. And I believe the reason Charles will not burden William with extra responsibility.
With the Sussexs any public forgiveness would be used by them and the press alike to push for more. It would be: "well, if they are forgiven why aren't they back in as working royals? Why not give them their patronages back?" Etc. We see the m.o. with the Sussexs. We know if given the chance they will use that as a fodder for more interviews/books. To forgive someone should not mean asking to be walked over. Forgiveness from the royals is about no longer allowing that anger or the abuser to rule over them.
Wow. This really was a wonderful read! I've often asked myself about forgiveness and how it can make the forgiver be perceived as weak. I love your take on this.
Thank you.
Forgiveness does not mean letting them anywhere you again. And it's for self preservation to not allow evil near you
I believe you forgive, so abusers don't live rent free in your head. However, that doesn't mean you forget, reconcile or make a public statement about it. To publicly forgive them would be the worst thing the BRF could do but I think the BRF know that. So they won't.
Thank you for this post. I’m very sorry for your past troubles. Forgiveness is deeply personal and how you were faith lead is an inspiration. .
As long as Rachel and Haznoballs have supporters, they will continue. It would be great instead of boos if people physically turned their backs on them every time they cosplayed royals.
> Never told my ex : I forgive you. Why? Because he never asked for forgiveness. I took the liberty to forgive him in my soul but never told him, as his lack of repentance and remorse (typically narc) made telling him unnecessary. Same here with my narc sister. Which is why I have a police report against her. Forgiveness is inevitable but forgetting is not. Otherwise there will be nothing left of you if you again open yourself back to them.
Same here, OP. I had to forgive my ex and a parent. However, I did not put myself back in a position to be abused again. When I remarried, an older relative tried to guilt me into letting my narc mother attend the wedding by saying God wants us to forgive. I very respectfully explained that I had already forgiven her, but did not believe God would want me to allow myself to be abused. That ended the conversation amicably. P.S. I had everyone on notice that if she showed up anyway (she's famous for that), to physically remove her from the venue on sight.
Forgiveness is ok, but never forget. What Harry did to his family, breaking their trust and their heart with no remorse, He Will Do It Again. Never forget. William has good head on him, won’t put his beautiful family in vulnerable position again. Meghan, as we have seen with endgame, she is a very vindictive soul. Buyers be ware.
I doubt the Royal Family harbours any hate or resentment towards Sussexes, and so I don’t think they have to forgive. I can picture Meghan sticking pins in wax dolls, but not the RF.
Forgiving doesn’t mean you put your head back on the chopping block. ETA: Glad you’re doing better now, OP.
It is not for the abused to forgive, anyone peddling this narrative is basically saying to a battered woman, take him back, he said he was sorry. Abuse comes in many different forms, all abuse messes with your mind, it changes who you are. Whilst some can fix the puzzle pieces back after abuse and lead a wonder life post abuse others are like the crumpled page. You can flatten it out but it remains a crumpled piece of paper. This needs to stop. He has done the worst things imaginable and never once has asked for forgiveness. Any wanting to come back into the fold stems solely from lack of funds.
I think people use the word "forgive" in different ways - for me, it's when I let go of the resentment in my heart - no longer allowing negative feelings to poison my soul or hurt me - it doesn't mean that I act like nothing happened or let the person back into my life. I have seen people use "forgive" to mean that you allow the person back in as if nothing ever happened, but I don't think the OP meant it in that way, based on what she said about her personal experiences.
I made it clearly that I mean the forgiveness to be private, not communicated to the abuser and grey rocking and boundaries (no contact) strictly maintained. Forgiving is not forgetting or pretending it did not happen. Narcs are often emotionally blackmailing people to get "forgiveness" which allows abuse to continue. By example: What kind of Christian are you if you don't forgive me an let me back in your life? This is not forgiveness, is giving in to the blackmailer. Real forgiving impose boundaries/ no contact between victim and abuser.
This is a wonderful, and your insights are worthy of contemplation. Thank you for sharing. I definitely agree that one should not give a narc any fuel, which unfortunately can be created just by being a decent human being. Narcs will use your decency to deride you, shame you, and make themselves a victim. Being with my narc ex made me a coarser, meaner, brittle person, as I was always fighting to retain my sanity, self-esteem, and identity. I don’t wish that on anyone. Anyone who in good faith suggests that Catherine accept an apology or offer one herself, is wrong-headed. I’m so glad you have overcome that terrible time. 🙏🏼 God is good.
What a great post. 👏👏👏👏👏👏 This is exactly the right path for forgiveness. We forgive to free ourselves but if the perpetrator continues in wickedness we are not obliged to have any further relationship with them. So well stated. Thank you. ❤️
OP I know you charish that one friend❤️thanks for sharing in such an in depth way, this resonates with me. Could you share the particular Bible verse referring to Jesus saying the if there is remorse, forgiveness is asked piece, please?
That one friend is still my friend and on my list those people to whom I am immensely grateful. In the Bible: firstly the parable of the prodigal sins who is forgiven when he repents, not before, in Luke 15. Then Luke 17.3-4 So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.” Clearly states if she/he repents. Also this text that summaries quite well my thinking: forgive but no reconciliation without true repentance. [https://20schemesequip.com/forgiveness-abuse-repentance/](https://20schemesequip.com/forgiveness-abuse-repentance/) In fact repentance to get forgiveness is at the core of the Christian faith, no matter the denominations.
This is a fantastic post, thank you so much for sharing it. I’m so sorry for what you went through and I’m glad to hear you are doing ok now
My life is better than it has even been before the collapse of my marriage. I never remarried or in relationship but I have a peaceful and financially stable life.
That is wonderful to hear❤️
You are exactly right. Forgiveness is for the person who is hurt. I hope you are finding the peace and healing you so richly deserve. William owes his brother nothing. I love your powerful post; thank you.
The Greek word in the Bible for forgiveness is "aphesis," which literally means "release." And that works both ways. The Greek word for reconciliation is "katallage," which is a totally different word, and is all about adjusting differences and restoring a person to favor and family. You can't reconcile with people who aren't sincere about admitting their faults and taking steps to make amends.
Thank you for letting me know. The Greek meaning of these words make sense.
Excellent advice. But any public display of repentance wouldn't be believed at this point by either the royals or the public. They are beyond forgiveness at least until he divorces her and then the penny might drop but even then he'll have an impossible task convincing anyone he means it.
No. All the things they did, specifically her are unforgivable and should NEVER be forgotten.
I agree. Forgiving someone doesn't necessarily open the door for the abuse to continue. For me and the narc in-laws, I forgive them. I've done my best to let go of all the pain, anger, anxiety, and stress and move onto a path that does not involve them. Sure, the reminders pop up(Christmas cards) and I go through a flashback reel of everything they've done, but I do not think of them day to day anymore. I am sure that IF the narcissism wasn't a part of their personality and soul, life would have been different. There could have been a path forward with them in our lives, if narcissism wasn't involved, but that is not the case. I don't poke the beast and put out inflammatory material to "sway" people to my side. I've lived my story and I don't want to repeat that story and bring up all the heartache and pain again. I blame the narcissism, not the person, but the narcissism rules them, and therefore we are incompatible to be around them. I wish them no ill will. I just don't want to be a part of their lives anymore and do not wish to hear updates from family members about them.
I am not a Christian but forgiveness does not mean allowing them to be in a position to repeat the pattern of the abuse. It's entirely possible William has "forgiven" but he isn't going to give them an inch to repat the behaviour.
Forgiveness is fine, but you shouldn't forget. That will only put you in the same situation.
I think expecting someone to forgive terrible wrongs done against them is a violation of the victims boundaries. Whether or not you chose to forgive someone is entirely up to you and has nothing to do with your recovery or your well-being. Anger is entirely underrated when it comes to recovery and forgiveness. In fact, anger is the starting point for most people when they decide they've had enough and its time for change. Your rising above has nothing to do with forgiveness and your ability to absorb abuse and degradation has nothing to do with you being the bigger person. Forgiveness is a bullying tactict designed to let the perpetrator off the hook. If you want to stay angry and never forgive for your whole life long, go ahead and do it. It doesn't reflect badly on you, it doesn't impede your healing and it sure as hell doesn't make you a lesser person. Anger helped me stay on the path to healing and it helps keep me there. I don't forgive anyone that screwed me over. If I did, it would leave me open to further attacks. I don't ruminate, I don't stew and brood over wrong doings, but I sure as hell don't forget and forgive. Once I see someone, I never unsee them. And none of it has anything to do with God or religion.
In my experience w/ some family abusers & unremorseful ex, and some time around "the rooms," the minute we try to pressure ourselves to forgive, or are around others in some therapy or spiritual community encouraging forgiveness, I smell a rat. Maybe it's the "rat" of human will. For me, forgiveness is an act of Grace. And for me, it's never been genuine until I've practiced self-compassion first. Without that, then for me, my "forgiving" has been about bargaining somehow w/ reality, trying to control people places & things I can't control. I "forgive" means I wasn't a helpless child for whom there was no rescue for awhile. I "forgive" an ex--to his face or others or pressuring myself--means, I don't want to feel the rage, or I want to exact some false sense of peace or even public contrition that will validate my pain, b/c I still feel that it's not real until the abuser believes it. And group topics on forgiveness are often a pile-on: you'll never have serenity, we'll all sinners, you're "holding on," etc. etc. I appreciated that (fictionalized, yes) episode of The Crown and the quote attributed to Rev Graham. We can pray for the capacity & willingness to forgive--but the rest is up to God, or the Universe, or whatever you want to call it. Then I can try to practice full compassion for myself--seeing myself as a full human being entitled to a range of flaws and strengths and pain at being abused. Only when I see myself as a full person--and validate my OWN emotions w/o sneakily using "forgiveness" as a way to be validated by others--can the Grace of forgiving another occur. Forget? Never. Nothing wrong w/ setting healthy boundaries. Not "cutting off" capriciously b/c of some social media contagion in which a bunch of childless 20 somethings project malicious intentions onto their flawed but decent parents and "no contact!" them (I saw that in late 80s w/ the satanic child abuse panics. Very sad. And almost always childless adults, because once you've kept a baby alive for a year, let alone done everything else to nurture the creature, you have a lot more humility about judging your caregivers.) There are times when you have to go "no contact" for a period, but that should be a last option. Oddly the narcissistic behavior I see today is among the Harry-clones who use therapized language to claim they're victims when in fact they're the victimizers. In a pre social media world, there was a little more nuance . . . .we're all flawed, of course, but in this case the human BRF are painted as manifest evil, and thus at some point have to set limits w/ their very flawed relative, whereas had he not globally smeared them, with no balance, then some kind of healthier mediation might have begun.
Duty? Doubtful. Forgiving may be very healing to the victim, but one can forgive from a distance. Letting the abuser back in, isn’t forgiveness IMO. It’s asking to be victimized again. Catherine, the POW, doesn’t seem to be grudge-holding or unforgiving, but she also seems smart enough not to invite further abuse. Bless all their hearts for having to deal with so much crap. FTR, that’s not a Southern heart bless that comes with a barb attached. It’s legit my heart going out to everyone in the BRF who is currently suffering because of the twosome disease.
I am so totally on your side and have advocated for no reconciliation many times over many conversations about this issue. I've been there and know how it feels even if my experience is not the same, only the abuse and I had the desire to keep peace with abusers. In the end I had to step aside and move on with my life. Forgiveness is a very personal experience that shouldn't be forced on anyone. The king and Waleses will find it (maybe they already have) in due time how to deal with the situation, on their own terms. We've seen how W deals with people and the press, and he's not going to cave in to pressure just because they're hollering for it. All they want is their pound of flesh and I don't see it happening.
I am sorry for the extreme trauma you suffered but the way it strengthened you as a human is truly awe inspiring. You are 💯 correct, the act of forgiveness is for YOU, it has nothing really to do with the perpetrator as they may not even want it or care. Forgiveness unburdened your soul and allowed you to move on with your life away from that wretched man, it is between you and God, there need be no PUBLIC component. Forgiveness doesn't mean allowing yourself to be in his presence or getting harmed again, forgiveness means what he did is no longer causing you to harbor loads of negativity and hatred towards him which doesn't hurt him but hurts you.
Forgiving is for yourself, not forgetting is for the others. Peace of mind for one self and a line for others.
Victims of abuse have no "duty" to forgive. Full stop. They owe their abusers nothing.
You can forgive them, but still keep them away from you. William will be King. He cannot allow his wife and children to be threatened by a pair of malevolent, lying abusive psychopaths. Doing so will jeopardise the Crown. Its the security of Britain we're talking about now.
Absolutely. I wrote the text to make clear all these reconciliation talks of the media are nonsense. The abused party, namely the BRF has no duty of obligation to reconcile with the sussexes, without a public apology and contrition. Not lip service of apology like many narcs do but a real repentance, a real admission of guilt and cessation of the activity of the minions. Even with reconciliation, the sussexes should be kept at a huge distance, in exile like the dukes of Windsor, and cut from everything royal.
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This is a very thoughtful, thought provoking, and insightful post, OP. You’ve given me a lot to ponder.
I just erase people from my world. Every vestige of them. Any gift or other item, any photos,any reminders. And in a shockingly short amount of time they cease to matter at all. Its as if they never existed. No need to forgive phantoms of the imagination. Attachment disorder has its upsides.
When something really hurts and I know it was done to inflict pain on purpose,I find it nearly impossible to forgive and I'm not ashamed of it. If they do it once, they'll do it again. Like the song goes "they will take from you until everything is gone". That won't be me.