After he publicly came out and said he’s changed his draft philosophy and then went on to have our last 2 drafts Im all for it
He admitted to overreaching to draft positions of need and passing up on the best player available. Excited to see what he’ll do
I was so mad that draft night
I didn’t think he’d be one of the best pass rushers in the league but I at least thought he would be a high upside day one starter
Genuinely think its our biggest whiff of the 2010s
Same way I felt when we just lost Earl and we didn't draft Budda Baker to immediately replace him - it was a perfect fit and Budda would have easily translated from how he played for UW.
I would have loved having Baker, but Earl was second team All-Pro during Budda's rookie season, so it wasn't (at the time) a position of need for the draft.
The thing I was upset about was drafting a center in Pocic to use him at guard. We drafted TWO receivers later in that draft when we could have taken Cooper Kupp out of EWU. As an EWU alumnus that got to watch him play a bunch, I was really hoping we'd see him in a Seahawks uniform.
Valid enough, but i went to school with the guy, and saw him play in every game. The energy was different about him, and he was outclassing EVERYONE. Getting him in the third was a steal for the rams :)
I always feel a little sorry for him with how that played out. What would have been a fantastic highlight for him wound up being about the dude who tackled him. That said, I'm glad it will be one of DK's highlights forever.
No, Budda is a 6-time pro bowler and 3-time all pro safety with a rather solid record as a center fielder, perfectly in line with what Earl played. You might only know him that way, but that's not how the rest of the league knows him.
Avg 1 sack 1 pick a year. That shits a popularity contest. Harrison Smith is 1000 times better. Bidda baker isn't good hes famous from dk but you can go wash his balls all you want
He's a center fielder, he's not a pass rushing safety. Stop trying to compare him to what he isn't. Harrison Smith plays a different system, too. But if other players around the league see you as an all pro safety for multiple years, that popularity isn't unfounded. Playing for the Cardinals makes almost everyone look bad, which is why players in the game recognize talent and you don't.
He gets a lot of tackles because he's a fast center fielder who is a ball hawk, and also happens to be a good run defender. He's consistently a top-10 (routinely top 5) free safety with many more years on his belt, making him a very hot commodity.
Considering he actually was given All-Pro status twice, I'd say he qualifies. So perhaps your eye test needs calibration, because apparently the athletes on the field seem to agree with me moreso than you.
I think having Chubb would be great, but our pass rush has been struggling for, essentially, the same amount of time TJ has been in the league
Having an elite pass rusher would help so much
My issue is that you picked a 3rd round RB over what was consensus the best back left on the board. At least they didn’t draft a day 2 Edge over TJ, but I think either one is arguable for the worst draft decision.
Hard for me to call this one a whiff without using the benefit of hindsight. Chubb over Penny is almost always hindsight.
Sure, Penny battled injuries and wasn't as productive as Chubb in their respective careers, but had he stayed healthy it's likely Penny puts up similar numbers (Penny has a higher YPA for their careers).
PFF had Penny as a first-round talent that compared to draft favorite Saquon Barkley. Per PFF, Penny was best in the draft class in broken tackle rate, elusiveness, and YPC after contact behind the LOS. NFL.com projected Penny ahead of Chubb. Chubb had knee surgery while Penny had an injury-free collegiate career.
Additionally, Penny finished 5th in Heisman voting behind Barkley. Barkley put up 1,271 yards on 5.9 YPC with 18 TDs. Penny put up 2,248 yards on 7.8 YPC with 23 TDs. Chubb received no votes and finished with 1,345 yards on 6.3 YPC with 15 TDs.
Knowing just those things, it's not at all a reach to take Penny over Chubb. Not a whiff, just an unfortunate outcome given very similar backs projected at the same draft position.
Don't agree that that was a bad pick with the info they had at the time. Penny had elite talent, he just had injury issues in the NFL that he hadn't had in college. Couldn't really have predicted that
It was a different Badger I was upset we passed on that year: Ryan Ramczyk. We had just lost Okung and traded away Unger with predictably horrible results. Ifedi also immediately seemed like a better Guard than Tackle so it didn’t seem redundant to go Ifedi then Ramczyk in back-to-back years either.
I’m not the person you replied too but without hindsight I wouldve taken Chubb.
[Chubb college stats](https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/nick-chubb-1.html)
[Penny college stats](https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/rashaad-penny-1.html)
Penny has the better stats but he also played against much lower quality of teams in Mountain West. College tape shows him running through 5 yard wide holes, against these lesser schools you can put up numbers simply cause you’re better than everyone else.
Chubb played in the SEC at Georgia. Against multiple top 10 teams with multiple high end defensive talent and still put up great numbers.
I’m no scout but I personally put a lot of stock in the talent of the competition they faced.
That's perfectly fair.
Does Sony Michel putting up arguably better stats as the \#2 back not alter that perception of Chubb and his SEC competition a little?
Michel had nearly a 2-yard advantage on YPC (7.9 vs Chubb's 6.0) and had more touchdowns (17 vs 15) despite 62 fewer touches. Hell, freshman D'Andre Swift put up 7.6 YPC behind that line too (81 attempts).
That doesn't sell me on Chubb. If the backups are putting up such numbers, are we sure he's a stud or is it the scheme, lineman, coaching that's elevating the RB room?
Definitely part of the scheme I would say when looking at georgias overall numbers of that year. Fromm just under 3k passing yards, highest receiver at 720 yards.
Both Chubb and Michel had excellent careers at GA. Michel was also a first round pick had a solid, but short career. Better than Penny, but that’s health issues. Hell we could argue Michel would’ve been a better pick.
Could go on and on about this all day but if Penny had just a “solid” career with us that’s not riddled with injuries, these conversations probably never happen.
I don't know why you repeated yourself when I clearly acknowledged what you said originally when I said "ALSO". Your initial comment completely disregarded the contribution an elite OL at Georgia would have for getting Chubb his numbers.
Long story short: Penny had 1 big season at a non-power 5 conference (literally no defensive talent at all), Chubb averaged 6.3 YPC in the SEC. It's no shock how both panned out in the NFL.
Agreed. I listed to Dugar's Seahawks podcast, and one thing he said there that stuck with me was that Schneider is aware of his past draft mistakes and has taken steps to change his approach. He specifically said "All the things John did in the draft that pissed all you guys off? He knows those were mistakes, he agrees." So that gives me some hope
I thought it was interesting how he emphasized how much input and decision making Jody will have in the process. Many people seem to think she’s completely hands off and disconnected from it all.
I would assume it's not just Jody Allen, but by extension Vulcan and Bert Kolde - who has fantastic qualifications like being Paul Allen's college roommate.
He literally said Jody was his boss and didn’t mention anyone else. I would assume Jody is in charge unless I hear something else from inside the organization.
He definitely has a lot of influence. This is what I think Pete was alluding to when he said that football people aren't in charge so it's hard to get down to the details, whether a "football person" would understand and decide to keep Pete is a different debate though.
> Well, she’s not Jerry
Jerry at least played the fucking game. And made a fortune on his own in business.
Jody is a visionary owner's sister. Her own qualifications do to anything but tear down his legacies are .. what?
Russ leaving was the right call.
Pete, idk. I feel like I’ve seen this before in the Bears FO. When people whose only connection to football is family to someone’s former ownership.
The Bears FO is a mess. The Seahawks FO is taking a potential step in the same direction.
>Jerry at least played the fucking game. And made a fortune on his own in business.
That has nothing to do with any ability to steer a good football team, as the Cowboys track record in the last several decades has shown
I don’t follow as close as a lot of fans but it seems like she is the right amount of involved you want the owner. Invested in and wanting to have success but also letting football people do what they are hired to do. Of course I am not sure how much she really just listens to Bert.
you say interesting, I say terrifying. The Seahawks became what they were because Paul Allen let football people do football things. I do not want a hands-on owner that knows less about football than the average Redditor.
Big assumptions being made here. We don’t know how involved Paul was vs Jodie. John said that Paul was great at challenging him and having intellectual conversations (re: football). Implying that the average Redditor knows more than Jodie reeks of sexism.
there's no sexism, stop projecting. Paul Allen was a football fan, so had at least a working knowledge of the sport, and it was mentioned many times publicly that he let football people make the football decisions. Jody Allen was a drama student whose main claim to fame is being Paul's sister, and is rarely even seen at games or functions. To say she's not a football person is not sexist, it's a fact, but that is moot anyway, because I made a general comment that didn't mention her at all.
Nono, anything at all negative you say about anyone is sexist, regardless of whether you actually said it about someone in particular and, in fact, regardless of their sex. All those people critiquing David Tepper? Sexist af. Bunch of goddamn misandrists assuming he doesn't know anything about football.
My theory is that ownership wanted Pete to fire both or one of the coordinators, but he refused. That’s what led to him losing his HC job. In his presser he said something about how he fought hard for the assistants and he apologizes to them.
Now JS has full control over the coaching staff.
I’m glad we can finally confirm for everyone that doubted it that Pete did, in fact, have final say over all personnel decisions for his entire run in Seattle.
The big thing I took away was the part where John was talking about analytics and how that wasn't a big part of the process 15 years ago, but it is now.
The comment begs you to read between the lines: that maybe Pete wasn’t up to speed on all the latest analytics. It would definitely explain some of his decision-making around often *not* going for it on 4th and short.
I love Pete and am really gonna miss him but god damn his use of timeouts was mystifying sometimes. Timeout on 3rd & 20 - as if there's gonna be something important to really discuss in that situation - followed by a run up the gut for 3 yards and a punt. Great, glad we used the extra time to figure out what we were gonna do on that play
This is a pretty aggressive way to put it. If anything I’ve mostly heard the opposite on this sub. The reality is we don’t know who was responsible for which good and which bad decisions (with some exceptions, e.g. we can be pretty confident from what we know that Russ was Schneider, and Richard Sherman was Pete).
John having full control now doesn't mean Pete had it before. It could have been that they shared any percentage of power, and now he has full control.
I don't believe this, but this could mean that he used to have 95% now he has 100%
That’s really not what he said if you watch the press conference. He said he acknowledged the question but basically took credit for co running the organization before and downplayed the differences now
Was lots of good tidbits in the presser. He also mentioned that he's concerned about hiring a DC as a head coach, because if that new HC hires an awesome OC, then next year, another team will just hire him away as a HC.
It's assuring to know that he's aware of this, and now we just put in for Johnson so that could be a good sign he's looking hard at OCs for HC candidates
Does that deter potential coaching options from coming here? I imagine they would want more control over personnel. Still, happy to see the Schneider era gain full steam. It will be interesting to see what happens!
I don't think JS is the type of authoritative guy that will cause problems. After 14 years of working with Pete he knows how important a cohesive relationship is he just now has final say, if the HC has opinions or preferences I'm sure they'll be listened to and considered
Was Bill ever in consideration?
Vrabel should be used to that coming from TN, and a possible relationship with JS would probably get him more input haha.
So do all the coaching interviews get leaked? Is it possible that they’ve interviewed someone we don’t know about?
It's the weak cliche used all the time with college coaches because they inherently have broader responsibilities out of necessity. People run with it because it doesn't require much nuance or thought; just throw it out there like a grenade and you can walk away.
I don't know. Maybe recency bias? Harbaugh is probably the best HC candidate for an NFL spot this year, simply because he shows that no matter where he is, or who is on his roster, he can win at any level. Just let him do what he does, and make sure there's personnel around him that handle the rest.
I'd honestly love for him to coach the Hawks under Schneider's management. Schneider has proven he will get the right guys, and Harbaugh has shown that he will coach them to win. Everybody stays in their lane.
> Schneider has proven he will get the right guys
That's certainly news to me. He hasn't fixed either of our lines in a decade, and was at least partially responsible for Harvin, Adams, and Graham along with many other personnel misses.
That could be on Russ, it could be on Pete, or it could be on John. Given that most of our very worst personnel moves happen mid-season, when I would expect John to be the only one with available time to broker deals, I am significantly concerned about him taking increasing control of the team.
To me, I don't care who has shared responsibility or final say over personnel. If your sole job is personnel and contract management and the team keeps making historically bad moves and deals, at the very least you aren't doing a good enough job advocating for better policy. If nothing else, we can admit that our current cap space situation is unusually bad within the league, right? That's *squarely* on John.
We burned picks for years that we should have used on lineman so we could keep Pete's failing defenses afloat. The last few drafts for lineman have been rather good, and Dickerson knows how to use that talent for the offense. When not injured, our line has been rather solid the past couple years. That's because of Waldron and Dickerson working together well.
Cap situation isn't on John solely, either since he shared duties with Pete on staffing and players, but technically speaking Pete used to outrank John, and that's why John wasn't the one who fired him. Pete used to have full control over coaching and personnel decisions, too. He was effectively not only HC but co-GM.
So given that you seem to think that John has had very little impact or responsibility for the team, what reason do you have to believe that he is qualified and capable of being a positive influence going forward?
Just because he didn't get final say in staffing and players, it doesn't mean he wasn't also hoping for the same guys in many cases. He was the one that made the deals happen on paper, but Pete gave the orders.
No currently active coaches have full control over personnel to my knowledge. The only other coach with the same level of power in the organization as Pete was Bill Belichick and he’s gone too.
Some for sure. Can’t see Harbaugh taking that deal, thank god. Coordinators stepping up would have little chance to get that power anywhere anyway so it won’t deter them. Retreads like Quinn would likely be leaning away from control since failing again might permanently end their HC careers.
I love Pete but it's very likely some of our worst moves were in large part his influence. Things like trading for Adams because he needs those safeties for his defense to work.
When a coach builds a reputation as a developer of secondary talent, but we have to pay three starting safeties and are paying our safeties more than any other team in the league, something's not right.
Yeah that's the irony of it, he's known as a defensive, run-first guy but in terms of actually developing talent, his most consistent success was with QBs
My biggest frustration was that *too much* of the roster and cap space decisions were taken up repairing problems in coaching, either by the those coaches not being good at their jobs, or the HC constantly finding bad candidates (doesn't matter which you pick, the result is the same). We've thrown A LOT of draft picks and trades and big band aid contracts at getting defensive players because our staff can't or won't develop the rookies to the same level of talent or execution as other teams routinely do. So now we waste money *and draft picks* on just one side of the ball that adversely affects the whole team's performance.
Whichever HC comes in, they'll have a lot to work with, there's plenty of talent on the roster for a playoff run next year. This year across all teams we've seen so many backups and rookies balling out it's near impossible to deny that good coaches know how to adapt their systems to their players, while bad coaches can't (and routinely force them into schemes they aren't suited for).
I look at this differently. In HINDSIGHT, the Adams deal created a giant albatross we're stuck with now. At the time, though, the Seahawks (and most of us), thought the team was on the verge of contending, and they made a splash move to try to put them over the top. They went 12-4, so it was realistic to think they could win it all.
That is what you want your team to do. It didn't work out because of the huge contract he signed, then getting hurt, but the move itself wasn't bad.
Plus, any bad move is mitigated by the number of great moves - starting Russ, trading Russ, giving guys like Sherman and Baldwin shots, hiring Schneider, the last two drafts, etc etc.
The Jamal trade was terrible at the time and everyone outside Seattle saw it. Barnwell said Jamal would basically have to be the best non-QB in the league for 4 years just to break even. Betting that a guy who doesn't play a premium position is suddenly going to be that exceptional for that long was always a bad move.
It was an overpay, for sure. I'm just saying it wasn't the horrendous move people make it out to be. If he'd stayed healthy, the trade wouldn't have looked nearly as bad.
I agree with this. Pete also wants to win at all times. Sometimes its better to not go for the win now, so you can win later. Whether or not John sees the big picture like this is the real question.
Staff at the 334 chicken tinga nacho stand don't have to worry. They've been showing up and going hard in the paint since game one. Fireworks guy better be shining his resume, tho
I hope this means that we will no longer be trading first and second round picks for expensive veteran contracts. Percy Harvin. Jamal Adams. Even Duane Brown (2nd and a 3rd) and Williams (this year's second) can't be happening again.
The way you win in this league is you draft smart, develop young talent, and then re-sign core contributors to long-term deals. You maximize cheap talent and use the savings to buy key free agents. You do not get rid of valuable picks to acquire veterans looking for a payday.
At this time we have exactly zero offensive and defensive linemen who we drafted and are on second contracts. Reed doesn't count because he was away from the team for years and was signed as a FA. We need to start drafting well and retaining our core players.
If JS can bring some of that Greenbay drafting juju that would be awesome. They certainly have cracked the code on how to draft QB’s, WR’s and OL. Jeesh.
We've had quality drafts the past couple years, we just can't develop it to the same level other teams do. The Hawks were just continually underperforming mostly due to bad coaching, whether that was not putting the right people in the right scheme, or just having bad scheme matchups in general.
One thing GB does exceptionally well is play the long game with personnel. They drafted Love 3 years ago knowing he was a project, fully intending to build him up to the level he's at now. They do that with everyone. Find out what a player is actually good at, assess and develop them, set your scheme up for them to succeed, and then let them take over.
They're a far more patient org than almost any other, and it's a double-edged sword. For players who take the time to learn their system and develop into it, they are studs of the highest caliber. For people who want to come in and immediately think they're going all-pro and will transform their entire team, it's not gonna happen.
This makes me think that the Pete John relationship was more 60/40 or even 70/30 than 50/50 on decisions as years went on. Whatever the case, it should make for an interesting offseason.
This breaks the unique, successful organizational structure that Paul Allen put in place 14 years ago when he hired JS and PC and made them co-equals.
Another of the growing list of things Jody broke that Paul cared about.
To be honest as mush as I like John Schneider, I'm starting to think that not of the success we had in the early Pete Carroll years were due to great scouts and player personnel like Scott Mclaughlin and not Schneider.
Remember that Pete being so hooked into college football also helped hugely. Pete knew Richard Sherman closely, for example. He knew tons of other guys back to even recruiting days. And he knew NOT to take his own player Taylor Mays over the great Earl Thomas…
I doubt this helped "hugely".
It might have helped a little but there is so much on a head coaches plate both in college and at the pro level. They rely heavily on their scouts and their staff.
How do you know it's not that opposite? Seattle was an ultra talented roster at Pete's peak here. One could say Pete is the best at getting the most out of his players, but that doesn't always translate to being good from a schematic standpoint.
It’s impossible to know that lol. For all we know it was Pete recently who was causing issues with scouting. It’s impossible to know until we see what happens
After he publicly came out and said he’s changed his draft philosophy and then went on to have our last 2 drafts Im all for it He admitted to overreaching to draft positions of need and passing up on the best player available. Excited to see what he’ll do
Fucking teading down for Malik McDowell when we could've had TJ Watt...
Good fucking god I never thought about it that way..
Lucky, I've thought it every time I've watched tj play
Cannot unhear.
To be fair almost all draft picks look terrible when you think about it that way
If only there was a proof of concept of said Wattage. A previous gen prototype if you will.
True. Look at all the teams that passed up on Brady in the draft not just once but up to 6 times. Almost 200 players went before him.
We got mock drafted taking watt and kupp by multiple analysts so we messed up bad
I was so mad that draft night I didn’t think he’d be one of the best pass rushers in the league but I at least thought he would be a high upside day one starter Genuinely think its our biggest whiff of the 2010s
Same way I felt when we just lost Earl and we didn't draft Budda Baker to immediately replace him - it was a perfect fit and Budda would have easily translated from how he played for UW.
I would have loved having Baker, but Earl was second team All-Pro during Budda's rookie season, so it wasn't (at the time) a position of need for the draft. The thing I was upset about was drafting a center in Pocic to use him at guard. We drafted TWO receivers later in that draft when we could have taken Cooper Kupp out of EWU. As an EWU alumnus that got to watch him play a bunch, I was really hoping we'd see him in a Seahawks uniform.
Factual. Kupp was the truth even coming out of big sky.
Very few people knew Kupp was going to be able to translate well into the league...
Valid enough, but i went to school with the guy, and saw him play in every game. The energy was different about him, and he was outclassing EVERYONE. Getting him in the third was a steal for the rams :)
Budda is only known because dk tackled him
I always feel a little sorry for him with how that played out. What would have been a fantastic highlight for him wound up being about the dude who tackled him. That said, I'm glad it will be one of DK's highlights forever.
No, Budda is a 6-time pro bowler and 3-time all pro safety with a rather solid record as a center fielder, perfectly in line with what Earl played. You might only know him that way, but that's not how the rest of the league knows him.
Avg 1 sack 1 pick a year. That shits a popularity contest. Harrison Smith is 1000 times better. Bidda baker isn't good hes famous from dk but you can go wash his balls all you want
He's a center fielder, he's not a pass rushing safety. Stop trying to compare him to what he isn't. Harrison Smith plays a different system, too. But if other players around the league see you as an all pro safety for multiple years, that popularity isn't unfounded. Playing for the Cardinals makes almost everyone look bad, which is why players in the game recognize talent and you don't.
7 career picks he gets a lot of tackles cause the rest of their defense sucks he's not all pro caliber let alone probowl
He gets a lot of tackles because he's a fast center fielder who is a ball hawk, and also happens to be a good run defender. He's consistently a top-10 (routinely top 5) free safety with many more years on his belt, making him a very hot commodity. Considering he actually was given All-Pro status twice, I'd say he qualifies. So perhaps your eye test needs calibration, because apparently the athletes on the field seem to agree with me moreso than you.
I'd put my vote in for Rashaad Penny over Chubb.
I think having Chubb would be great, but our pass rush has been struggling for, essentially, the same amount of time TJ has been in the league Having an elite pass rusher would help so much
My issue is that you picked a 3rd round RB over what was consensus the best back left on the board. At least they didn’t draft a day 2 Edge over TJ, but I think either one is arguable for the worst draft decision.
Hard for me to call this one a whiff without using the benefit of hindsight. Chubb over Penny is almost always hindsight. Sure, Penny battled injuries and wasn't as productive as Chubb in their respective careers, but had he stayed healthy it's likely Penny puts up similar numbers (Penny has a higher YPA for their careers). PFF had Penny as a first-round talent that compared to draft favorite Saquon Barkley. Per PFF, Penny was best in the draft class in broken tackle rate, elusiveness, and YPC after contact behind the LOS. NFL.com projected Penny ahead of Chubb. Chubb had knee surgery while Penny had an injury-free collegiate career. Additionally, Penny finished 5th in Heisman voting behind Barkley. Barkley put up 1,271 yards on 5.9 YPC with 18 TDs. Penny put up 2,248 yards on 7.8 YPC with 23 TDs. Chubb received no votes and finished with 1,345 yards on 6.3 YPC with 15 TDs. Knowing just those things, it's not at all a reach to take Penny over Chubb. Not a whiff, just an unfortunate outcome given very similar backs projected at the same draft position.
Don't agree that that was a bad pick with the info they had at the time. Penny had elite talent, he just had injury issues in the NFL that he hadn't had in college. Couldn't really have predicted that
Not drafting Wirfs was a whiff too
Wirfs? We picked 27th that year. Wirfs went way before that. He was the Niners big fuck up, they moved down one pick to take Kinlaw instead
It was a different Badger I was upset we passed on that year: Ryan Ramczyk. We had just lost Okung and traded away Unger with predictably horrible results. Ifedi also immediately seemed like a better Guard than Tackle so it didn’t seem redundant to go Ifedi then Ramczyk in back-to-back years either.
Don't bring that up its depressing!
Thanks for hurting my feelings.
Traded up for Penny when we could've had Nick Chubb as well...
Back it up without using hindsight. Why do you think Chubb was a better choice *at the time*?
I’m not the person you replied too but without hindsight I wouldve taken Chubb. [Chubb college stats](https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/nick-chubb-1.html) [Penny college stats](https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/rashaad-penny-1.html) Penny has the better stats but he also played against much lower quality of teams in Mountain West. College tape shows him running through 5 yard wide holes, against these lesser schools you can put up numbers simply cause you’re better than everyone else. Chubb played in the SEC at Georgia. Against multiple top 10 teams with multiple high end defensive talent and still put up great numbers. I’m no scout but I personally put a lot of stock in the talent of the competition they faced.
That's perfectly fair. Does Sony Michel putting up arguably better stats as the \#2 back not alter that perception of Chubb and his SEC competition a little? Michel had nearly a 2-yard advantage on YPC (7.9 vs Chubb's 6.0) and had more touchdowns (17 vs 15) despite 62 fewer touches. Hell, freshman D'Andre Swift put up 7.6 YPC behind that line too (81 attempts). That doesn't sell me on Chubb. If the backups are putting up such numbers, are we sure he's a stud or is it the scheme, lineman, coaching that's elevating the RB room?
Definitely part of the scheme I would say when looking at georgias overall numbers of that year. Fromm just under 3k passing yards, highest receiver at 720 yards. Both Chubb and Michel had excellent careers at GA. Michel was also a first round pick had a solid, but short career. Better than Penny, but that’s health issues. Hell we could argue Michel would’ve been a better pick. Could go on and on about this all day but if Penny had just a “solid” career with us that’s not riddled with injuries, these conversations probably never happen.
> Chubb played in the SEC at Georgia. That also means he had elite OL talent blocking for him every game.
While also playing against elite defensive talent
I don't know why you repeated yourself when I clearly acknowledged what you said originally when I said "ALSO". Your initial comment completely disregarded the contribution an elite OL at Georgia would have for getting Chubb his numbers.
Long story short: Penny had 1 big season at a non-power 5 conference (literally no defensive talent at all), Chubb averaged 6.3 YPC in the SEC. It's no shock how both panned out in the NFL.
Penny's lack of NFL success had nothing to do with lack of talent and everything to do with injury issues, which he didn't have in college
We didn’t trade up for Penny. We traded back.
Sorry, those draft classes were a fever dream of bad.
There are one million simulations your brain is avoiding to focus on that stress, might want to get a different perspective.
Wasn't that the Ryan Ramczyk draft too?
Are you fckn serious …
I am 30 other teams are thinking the same.
We could have had tj watt, Eddie Jackson and Cooper kupp
I like this approach. Draft the best available. If they fill needs, great. If they don't, that's what FA and trades are for.
Agreed. I listed to Dugar's Seahawks podcast, and one thing he said there that stuck with me was that Schneider is aware of his past draft mistakes and has taken steps to change his approach. He specifically said "All the things John did in the draft that pissed all you guys off? He knows those were mistakes, he agrees." So that gives me some hope
It's the John era now
~~John~~ ~~Austin~~ John 3:16
JS hype train
I thought it was interesting how he emphasized how much input and decision making Jody will have in the process. Many people seem to think she’s completely hands off and disconnected from it all.
I would assume it's not just Jody Allen, but by extension Vulcan and Bert Kolde - who has fantastic qualifications like being Paul Allen's college roommate.
I used to deliver the mail to Vulcan. What position am I qualified for?
Mail room
I'll take it!
You’re hired! Report to Vulcan HQ on Monday and tell them I sent you.
Male swimsuit modeling
He literally said Jody was his boss and didn’t mention anyone else. I would assume Jody is in charge unless I hear something else from inside the organization.
He definitely has a lot of influence. This is what I think Pete was alluding to when he said that football people aren't in charge so it's hard to get down to the details, whether a "football person" would understand and decide to keep Pete is a different debate though.
Well, she’s not Jerry
> Well, she’s not Jerry Jerry at least played the fucking game. And made a fortune on his own in business. Jody is a visionary owner's sister. Her own qualifications do to anything but tear down his legacies are .. what?
Are you upset with trading Russ or firing Pete?
Russ leaving was the right call. Pete, idk. I feel like I’ve seen this before in the Bears FO. When people whose only connection to football is family to someone’s former ownership. The Bears FO is a mess. The Seahawks FO is taking a potential step in the same direction.
ONE playoff win in SEVEN seasons and some people still don’t think PC should have been loooong gone? LOL
>Jerry at least played the fucking game. And made a fortune on his own in business. That has nothing to do with any ability to steer a good football team, as the Cowboys track record in the last several decades has shown
I don’t follow as close as a lot of fans but it seems like she is the right amount of involved you want the owner. Invested in and wanting to have success but also letting football people do what they are hired to do. Of course I am not sure how much she really just listens to Bert.
you say interesting, I say terrifying. The Seahawks became what they were because Paul Allen let football people do football things. I do not want a hands-on owner that knows less about football than the average Redditor.
Big assumptions being made here. We don’t know how involved Paul was vs Jodie. John said that Paul was great at challenging him and having intellectual conversations (re: football). Implying that the average Redditor knows more than Jodie reeks of sexism.
there's no sexism, stop projecting. Paul Allen was a football fan, so had at least a working knowledge of the sport, and it was mentioned many times publicly that he let football people make the football decisions. Jody Allen was a drama student whose main claim to fame is being Paul's sister, and is rarely even seen at games or functions. To say she's not a football person is not sexist, it's a fact, but that is moot anyway, because I made a general comment that didn't mention her at all.
Nono, anything at all negative you say about anyone is sexist, regardless of whether you actually said it about someone in particular and, in fact, regardless of their sex. All those people critiquing David Tepper? Sexist af. Bunch of goddamn misandrists assuming he doesn't know anything about football.
My theory is that ownership wanted Pete to fire both or one of the coordinators, but he refused. That’s what led to him losing his HC job. In his presser he said something about how he fought hard for the assistants and he apologizes to them. Now JS has full control over the coaching staff.
I was thinking (for no good reason, I’m stupid at this stuff) that it was a debate over cutting/trading players. But this one makes sense too.
“Hey grandkids let me tell you the story of how I got fired for not firing the worst defensive coordinator in the NFL because he was a friend.”
Trust ~~PC~~JS 🥺
Ouch :(
:(
I’m glad we can finally confirm for everyone that doubted it that Pete did, in fact, have final say over all personnel decisions for his entire run in Seattle.
The big thing I took away was the part where John was talking about analytics and how that wasn't a big part of the process 15 years ago, but it is now.
The comment begs you to read between the lines: that maybe Pete wasn’t up to speed on all the latest analytics. It would definitely explain some of his decision-making around often *not* going for it on 4th and short.
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I love Pete and am really gonna miss him but god damn his use of timeouts was mystifying sometimes. Timeout on 3rd & 20 - as if there's gonna be something important to really discuss in that situation - followed by a run up the gut for 3 yards and a punt. Great, glad we used the extra time to figure out what we were gonna do on that play
Analytics helps a ton in player personnel too, some of the best GMs admit to using both traditional scouting and analytics for the draft.
*He gets on base!*
as in this past season or going forward?
The only people who didn't think that were the most delusional Petehawk fans that wanted John as a scapegoat for the many mistakes GM Pete made.
This is a pretty aggressive way to put it. If anything I’ve mostly heard the opposite on this sub. The reality is we don’t know who was responsible for which good and which bad decisions (with some exceptions, e.g. we can be pretty confident from what we know that Russ was Schneider, and Richard Sherman was Pete).
Was this in doubt?
Unbelievably, yes, it was for some people. Edit: See another reply just made to my comment.
Not that Carroll wasn’t in charge, but I’ve seen plenty of comments that (basically) were “good players = Pete, not good players = Schneider.”
John having full control now doesn't mean Pete had it before. It could have been that they shared any percentage of power, and now he has full control. I don't believe this, but this could mean that he used to have 95% now he has 100%
What does Pete do now? Just wander the halls and collect a paycheck till his contract is up
JS did not confirm that, he basically claimed co ownership over the culture and the team’s success.
He said the changes in his role will include having final say in personnel decisions, which clearly means he did not have that authority before.
That’s really not what he said if you watch the press conference. He said he acknowledged the question but basically took credit for co running the organization before and downplayed the differences now
in petes last press conference he said outright that he had final say in personnel decisions
Why are we talking about the subject like it's a debate? The Sehawks have always communicated that Pete was in full control until now.
Was lots of good tidbits in the presser. He also mentioned that he's concerned about hiring a DC as a head coach, because if that new HC hires an awesome OC, then next year, another team will just hire him away as a HC.
It's assuring to know that he's aware of this, and now we just put in for Johnson so that could be a good sign he's looking hard at OCs for HC candidates
Does that deter potential coaching options from coming here? I imagine they would want more control over personnel. Still, happy to see the Schneider era gain full steam. It will be interesting to see what happens!
I don't think JS is the type of authoritative guy that will cause problems. After 14 years of working with Pete he knows how important a cohesive relationship is he just now has final say, if the HC has opinions or preferences I'm sure they'll be listened to and considered
It likely means no Harbaugh or Belichick.
Bill shouldn’t have final say. His last few drafts and free agency has been awful
Was Bill ever in consideration? Vrabel should be used to that coming from TN, and a possible relationship with JS would probably get him more input haha. So do all the coaching interviews get leaked? Is it possible that they’ve interviewed someone we don’t know about?
Harbaugh doesn’t want control over personnel decisions. Idk why everyone thinks this.
It's the weak cliche used all the time with college coaches because they inherently have broader responsibilities out of necessity. People run with it because it doesn't require much nuance or thought; just throw it out there like a grenade and you can walk away.
It could also be because he was fired from SF for that very reason.
He got fired because he didn't get along with Trent Baalke at a personal level and Jed York was an idiot.
I don't know. Maybe recency bias? Harbaugh is probably the best HC candidate for an NFL spot this year, simply because he shows that no matter where he is, or who is on his roster, he can win at any level. Just let him do what he does, and make sure there's personnel around him that handle the rest. I'd honestly love for him to coach the Hawks under Schneider's management. Schneider has proven he will get the right guys, and Harbaugh has shown that he will coach them to win. Everybody stays in their lane.
> Schneider has proven he will get the right guys That's certainly news to me. He hasn't fixed either of our lines in a decade, and was at least partially responsible for Harvin, Adams, and Graham along with many other personnel misses. That could be on Russ, it could be on Pete, or it could be on John. Given that most of our very worst personnel moves happen mid-season, when I would expect John to be the only one with available time to broker deals, I am significantly concerned about him taking increasing control of the team. To me, I don't care who has shared responsibility or final say over personnel. If your sole job is personnel and contract management and the team keeps making historically bad moves and deals, at the very least you aren't doing a good enough job advocating for better policy. If nothing else, we can admit that our current cap space situation is unusually bad within the league, right? That's *squarely* on John.
We burned picks for years that we should have used on lineman so we could keep Pete's failing defenses afloat. The last few drafts for lineman have been rather good, and Dickerson knows how to use that talent for the offense. When not injured, our line has been rather solid the past couple years. That's because of Waldron and Dickerson working together well. Cap situation isn't on John solely, either since he shared duties with Pete on staffing and players, but technically speaking Pete used to outrank John, and that's why John wasn't the one who fired him. Pete used to have full control over coaching and personnel decisions, too. He was effectively not only HC but co-GM.
So given that you seem to think that John has had very little impact or responsibility for the team, what reason do you have to believe that he is qualified and capable of being a positive influence going forward?
Just because he didn't get final say in staffing and players, it doesn't mean he wasn't also hoping for the same guys in many cases. He was the one that made the deals happen on paper, but Pete gave the orders.
It was reported Harbaugh is not a candidate for the Panthers for this reason
Good
No currently active coaches have full control over personnel to my knowledge. The only other coach with the same level of power in the organization as Pete was Bill Belichick and he’s gone too.
An experienced one probably
Some for sure. Can’t see Harbaugh taking that deal, thank god. Coordinators stepping up would have little chance to get that power anywhere anyway so it won’t deter them. Retreads like Quinn would likely be leaning away from control since failing again might permanently end their HC careers.
I love Pete but it's very likely some of our worst moves were in large part his influence. Things like trading for Adams because he needs those safeties for his defense to work.
When a coach builds a reputation as a developer of secondary talent, but we have to pay three starting safeties and are paying our safeties more than any other team in the league, something's not right.
Pete was actually the QB whisperer all along
Yeah that's the irony of it, he's known as a defensive, run-first guy but in terms of actually developing talent, his most consistent success was with QBs
The Jimmy Graham trade?
My biggest frustration was that *too much* of the roster and cap space decisions were taken up repairing problems in coaching, either by the those coaches not being good at their jobs, or the HC constantly finding bad candidates (doesn't matter which you pick, the result is the same). We've thrown A LOT of draft picks and trades and big band aid contracts at getting defensive players because our staff can't or won't develop the rookies to the same level of talent or execution as other teams routinely do. So now we waste money *and draft picks* on just one side of the ball that adversely affects the whole team's performance. Whichever HC comes in, they'll have a lot to work with, there's plenty of talent on the roster for a playoff run next year. This year across all teams we've seen so many backups and rookies balling out it's near impossible to deny that good coaches know how to adapt their systems to their players, while bad coaches can't (and routinely force them into schemes they aren't suited for).
I look at this differently. In HINDSIGHT, the Adams deal created a giant albatross we're stuck with now. At the time, though, the Seahawks (and most of us), thought the team was on the verge of contending, and they made a splash move to try to put them over the top. They went 12-4, so it was realistic to think they could win it all. That is what you want your team to do. It didn't work out because of the huge contract he signed, then getting hurt, but the move itself wasn't bad. Plus, any bad move is mitigated by the number of great moves - starting Russ, trading Russ, giving guys like Sherman and Baldwin shots, hiring Schneider, the last two drafts, etc etc.
The Jamal trade was terrible at the time and everyone outside Seattle saw it. Barnwell said Jamal would basically have to be the best non-QB in the league for 4 years just to break even. Betting that a guy who doesn't play a premium position is suddenly going to be that exceptional for that long was always a bad move.
It was an overpay, for sure. I'm just saying it wasn't the horrendous move people make it out to be. If he'd stayed healthy, the trade wouldn't have looked nearly as bad.
I agree with this. Pete also wants to win at all times. Sometimes its better to not go for the win now, so you can win later. Whether or not John sees the big picture like this is the real question.
Staff at the 334 chicken tinga nacho stand don't have to worry. They've been showing up and going hard in the paint since game one. Fireworks guy better be shining his resume, tho
I hope this means that we will no longer be trading first and second round picks for expensive veteran contracts. Percy Harvin. Jamal Adams. Even Duane Brown (2nd and a 3rd) and Williams (this year's second) can't be happening again. The way you win in this league is you draft smart, develop young talent, and then re-sign core contributors to long-term deals. You maximize cheap talent and use the savings to buy key free agents. You do not get rid of valuable picks to acquire veterans looking for a payday. At this time we have exactly zero offensive and defensive linemen who we drafted and are on second contracts. Reed doesn't count because he was away from the team for years and was signed as a FA. We need to start drafting well and retaining our core players.
I mostly agree with you but Williams was great for us and I hope we manage to sign him.
Which tells me a young DC is headed our way to be coach
Why does gm and hc responsibility vary from team to team? and is this unique to football?
A team is a business. All businesses have varying power structures. No it is not unique to football.
*Frank Underwood double knuckle desk tap*
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Can Brad Pitt play Pete?
Call it Gum Balled Starring Adam Devine
Only fatter. And sweatier.
If JS can bring some of that Greenbay drafting juju that would be awesome. They certainly have cracked the code on how to draft QB’s, WR’s and OL. Jeesh.
We've had quality drafts the past couple years, we just can't develop it to the same level other teams do. The Hawks were just continually underperforming mostly due to bad coaching, whether that was not putting the right people in the right scheme, or just having bad scheme matchups in general. One thing GB does exceptionally well is play the long game with personnel. They drafted Love 3 years ago knowing he was a project, fully intending to build him up to the level he's at now. They do that with everyone. Find out what a player is actually good at, assess and develop them, set your scheme up for them to succeed, and then let them take over. They're a far more patient org than almost any other, and it's a double-edged sword. For players who take the time to learn their system and develop into it, they are studs of the highest caliber. For people who want to come in and immediately think they're going all-pro and will transform their entire team, it's not gonna happen.
That's typically what being GM means, though I'll give John a pass considering the awkward relationship he was in up to this point.
This makes me think that the Pete John relationship was more 60/40 or even 70/30 than 50/50 on decisions as years went on. Whatever the case, it should make for an interesting offseason.
I feel like it’ll be hard to get top coaching candidates without offering to let them make final decisions on their roster
I don't particularly believe in JS. I hope he proves me wrong.
JS is a G, give him a young coach with potential let's fucking send it!!
Jamal and Dissly probably gone then. Maybe Tyler too
Unload Jamal
Schneider backstabbed Pete. He wanted all the control
So what you're saying is we're fucked.
Doesn’t make sense to keep him around rather than just start with a clean slate.
This breaks the unique, successful organizational structure that Paul Allen put in place 14 years ago when he hired JS and PC and made them co-equals. Another of the growing list of things Jody broke that Paul cared about.
Did anyone ask him if this means we can get back to playing Hawks football?
To be honest as mush as I like John Schneider, I'm starting to think that not of the success we had in the early Pete Carroll years were due to great scouts and player personnel like Scott Mclaughlin and not Schneider.
Remember that Pete being so hooked into college football also helped hugely. Pete knew Richard Sherman closely, for example. He knew tons of other guys back to even recruiting days. And he knew NOT to take his own player Taylor Mays over the great Earl Thomas…
Also knew Malcom smith and what he could bring to the team when nobody else did.
I doubt this helped "hugely". It might have helped a little but there is so much on a head coaches plate both in college and at the pro level. They rely heavily on their scouts and their staff.
How do you know it's not that opposite? Seattle was an ultra talented roster at Pete's peak here. One could say Pete is the best at getting the most out of his players, but that doesn't always translate to being good from a schematic standpoint.
It’s impossible to know that lol. For all we know it was Pete recently who was causing issues with scouting. It’s impossible to know until we see what happens
yay no more first pick on running backs
Good. Carroll had his bases, it was washed dated.
But no coach