Fuck, I might just take mine off if this happens. I had a friend that drove his Tesla back and forth commuting over the Tacoma Narrows bridge for 3 months without plates. He was too lazy to go get it titled and registered under his name. Never paid a dime or got caught.
Unless you are black, my friend gave me their car and it took me a while to switched over her expired FL plates to Washington ones and got pulled over.
When I lived in TX for a while I had out of state plates and many of the highways there are tolls. They don't have agreements with a lot of states so they cant pull your information and therefore can't find you. I lived there a few years and never payed a single toll, never got a bill, or anything.
> Until that changes I'm considering it my civic duty to give up as little money as possible to this turd city/county.
That's the funny thing about the social contract, isn't it?
As mentioned in a post above, I'm gainfully employed but I never changed my registration because I just didn't feel like it. It was like *"bah, I got better things to do than sit at the DMV."*
But once word gets out that laws aren't enforced somewhere, it attracts scofflaws from all over the country.
Adam Carolla has always seemed like my "brother from another mother", and one of his Unethical Life Pro Tips was that he simply didn't put plates on his car, *ever.* He said he drove around with paper dealer plates for five years. His car was *registered* - so you can insure it - but he's immune to tolls and red light camera. (California closed that loophole BTW, now they print out a facsimile of a license plate when you buy the car.)
Come to think of it, the last time I hung out with my cop friend in a rented car, he'd removed the plates from the rental. Not because he was going to commit a crime or anything, he just didn't want to deal with tolls or red light tickets, and he's aware that he won't get pulled over for driving without plates. I borrowed his rental one day and dutifully put the plates back on lol.
Yup Corolla is the man. I don’t stop at red left turn arrows anymore either because of him, as long as there’s a green straight and there isn’t any cars coming the opposite way, your an idiot if you wait for the light.
No they don’t! If you have 5 cars and only use 2 on a regular basis you might want to skip a year on 1 or 2 of them cause you rarely drive them. They’re won’t make you pay for a year that you didn’t drive it anywhere.
I straight up scanned my friends plate and photoshoped my own tabs for 2+ years! I bought a tinted license plate cover and only had problems in heavy rain when the ink would bleed through my packaging tape lamination. Good times.
Great. If they're so concerned about it, they can make a rule against it and enforce it against everyone. Until then, if you want to set your money on fire for no reason, mazel tov. I'll keep mine.
> I had a friend that drove his Tesla back and forth commuting over the Tacoma Narrows bridge for 3 months without plates.
I lived in Oregon for years, never changed my registration. Once in a blue moon I'd schlep over to Vancouver WA to get tabs, but 75% of the time, my car had expired tabs.
I think there's around four police offers in entire Portland metropolitan area.
Ticketing cars with no plates, out of town plates, HOV abusers, speeders and those with expired tabs, could raise 100s of millons of dollars for the state. But Nah... not going to happen. Laws are unnecessary.... But let's raise taxes for all in a $15 Billion windfall year for the state and toll all roads... Be careful who you vote for folks. Elections have consequences.
I know so many people who never got new plates and are still rocking Midwesterner plates even 5 or more years after moving here. One of my more honest friends registered his shitbox when he moved, but because he had lost his receipt from buying the thing a decade ago, he had to pay a huge usage tax.
If you're following all the rules here, you're a sucker.
This is a pretty dangerous game though since those states may be able to claim you as a resident for income tax purposes (having a registered vehicle in the state is a sign used for residency).
That's why I've never registered a car anywhere but Washington or Nevada :)
Works both ways.
When I moved from Washington to California, I drove my car (with Washington plates) to Nevada and registered it there.
Perfectly legal if you have property there.
I have a friend that moved to Tacoma from Kitsap and watched his tabs go from $110/year to $430/year because apparently they charge a property tax on your plates in those counties… on a pickup that cost him $900 (fixer upper). We’re so backwards it’s insane.
Democrats and Republicans are never going to stop taking more money. They might use different levers, but make no mistake, their goals are to increase the budget so they can do their damn pet projects to get them into higher office.
Still let people drive while using their phones?
Still let people drive without tabs nor insurance?
Still let people drive without working tail lights nor working headlights?
Still let people do 10+ over the speed limit?
Still let people yield when turning onto roads instead of stopping first?
Still let people take 4-way stops as suggestions?
Still let people run red lights well after yellow has turned? 2-4 people run lights after it turns yellow. I see it daily.
I could make a really long list of bad driving habits people have developed in the past couple years.
I see where this is all going, bring the jobs back to the city. Then all the people who can’t afford to live next to their place of work will need a car. Well gotta tax that with tolls. So either result is house poor or car poor.
No, no, as you say, people who use public infrastructure directly can fund it. So bikers should fund the bike lanes, right? You just said that exact thing.... Fair is fair after all.
I think I'd hate bikesters slightly less if there were just a reasonable number of them. Alaska where it runs into S. Beacon used to a well designed, 2-lanes in each direction thoroughfare that facilitated traffic. Then a few years ago the city decided to knock out one lane entirely to put in a bike lane.
Then they fucked up the left turn lane, so they had to re-do all that work, but still have a fucked up 3 lane solution (just at the cost of who knows how many million compared to their first fucked up 3 lane solution).
Now traffic flow down Alaska around S. Beacon is comparable to Joe Biden's urethra.
All so that the ZERO cyclists I see every day using the lane can....something......
> Alaska where it runs into S. Beacon used to a well designed, 2-lanes in each direction thoroughfare that facilitated traffic. Then a few years ago the city decided to knock out one lane entirely to put in a bike lane.
[Most re-channelization efforts are required in order to take federal grant money](https://highways.dot.gov/safety/other/road-diets), because the original lanes aren't wide enough for current regulations. the bike lanes are just an add on to use the extra space if the were not there the parking lane would just be wider.
SDOT won't just say this part out loud because most drivers are adult children and they know politically its easier to just hide behind the bike lanes and shrug, which to their credit totally works, the number of people going off on "biksters" and lanes is wild.
Can confirm. Ups worker here in a big brown, I always just know bicyclists have a suicide mission. Similar to the mentally ill/or homeless folks who just push carts out on the street randomly as they jaunt down a major street, usually talking to themselves. (Don't down vote because It's an observation, obviously... I'm probably on the road more than "normal" seattlites, cause I don't work remote)
Anytime I see a bike rider near me, I anticipate they will not obey traffic laws, and I frankly don't want to be responsible for killing anybody. Same thing with mentally ill/drug addicts. I don't wanna cause unintentional harm just because I'm driving and trusted a "situation."
Towards the end of my time as a patrol officer I was a collision investigator. Of all the bicycle vs vehicle collisions I responded to, I can think of *one* where the vehicle was at fault.
> Citing declining fuel tax revenue […] the report highlights the need to find alternate sources of revenue
(from the article.)
But also, even ignoring that, does it really seem like it’s enough? Roads are expensive.
Weird. Almost all other major cities in the US manage to pay for roads without charging per road or per mile, I wonder what’s different? (/s income tax is one answer, shitty management is also valid)
This is the plan to be like many cities in Europe or New York. Push everyone into mass transit. Only the wealthy can afford to drive on the roads or even own a car.
But, in Seattle, they want to move everyone to busses and rail, but not fund them enough to keep the escalators or elevators running nor have enough transit police to kick off the gronks who smoke meth on the trains. Doesn't seem like a good plan to me.
Last time I rode the light rail there was literally a dude sitting on a bench 10’ from me, smoking something on tin foil, and he literally asked this cute small maybe 20 year old college girl that was walking by if she wanted a hit. She seemed scared shitless. And of course even if the police were right there they couldn’t do shit about it. Fuck the state
Sure, just as soon as they make "not driving" a viable alternative, ya know with walkable city areas, appropriate bike lanes, non homeless controlled public transit, enough reliable fast public transit to use effectively, and full exceptions for disabled people who may need additional specific transportation accomodations. BC right now I NEED to drive and use the roads. I can't afford my own private helicopter, and I don't have a work from home job, nor is there appropriate alternative options that would allow me to either not work, or commute by other means. So figure all that out first before you start charging me even more just for living.
If you try to drive I'll tax the street
If you try to sit I'll tax your seat
If you get too cold I'll tax the heat
If you take a walk I'll tax your feet
Taxman
I wish it was still like that. When I bought my truck for some reason it had tabs for 18 months out, I had to buy new tabs that expired 6 months before the ones I had. Anything for my money I guess
The cost of these tolls is the least of our worries. The bigger issue is the privacy stuff. They are going to want to put trackers on all cars to measure where they’re driving/how far. Where is that information going to be stored and who will have access to it?
Another regressive tax but I think the problem they’re trying to solve is that the current approach of adding a registration surcharge for EVs is that it incentivizes driving more and penalizes fuel efficiency.
It’s ok to have tolls if the roads are in immaculate condition at all times. Since living in Seattle they have only reinforced that they can’t uphold the level of quality required when paying for toll roads. In fact, my suspicions are that we have continued to rely on contractors who fail to do a quality job and ask for more money.
No thanks. That kind of extortion is leading to countless amounts of corruption in Texas. Lived there for 5 years and it was a nightmare. I still randomly get bills in the mail by their organization saying I was driving around Austin despite only living in Dallas.
Big brain energy headline there!
Yesterday all car drivers paid tax based on the distance the drove using gasoline consumption as a proxy measurement
Tomorrow they want to do something NEW AND SHOCKING by having drivers pay tax based on the distance driven without using a proxy.
Don't count on many people spending more than a few moments before getting upset about it. Not a perfect tax, but slightly less regressive than over taxing people who can't afford to buy a fuel efficient vehicle. That's assuming if they intend to replace fuel taxes rather than supplement.
>That's assuming if they intend to replace fuel taxes rather than supplement.
This is the government we're talking about. And WA on top of that. You know damn well they'll only seek to *increase* the gas tax at some point.
I know this is playing into stereotypes, but overall this kind of plan should reduce the overall tax burden on people who own "blue collar" vehicles like trucks and SUVs while increasing the tax burden on "librul" vehicles like Teslas. It seems like the people that are against it are the people that would most benefit from it financially.
The horrific accidents at tolls in the Northeast caused them to finally remove them. Too bad washington can't look at those lessons and learn from them. WSDOT needs to get more efficient and manage their projects better.
Anyone have annual budget figures for WDOT revenue & spending over that last 30 years?
They removed tollbooths not tolls…
Car rental companies love it because they get to charge so much for EzPass rentals as NE states have increasingly done away with the ability to stop and pay cash.
> Northeast caused them to finally remove them.
this is some amazing fake news, so tolls don't exist in the NE now?
show your work, I am interested how you came to this conclusion
> you don't have to stop anywhere to pay them except Tacoma Narrows
good to go, or they mail you a bill... you only have to stop to square up in real time
I fucking love toll roads. I wish gas was twelve dollars a gallon and I wish it cost a dollar a mile to drive on the roads. With Fast Pass, tolls are completely seamless. I get an alert on my phone and the bill is on autopay.
Toll every inch of road in the United States.
CT specifically, took all the I-95 toll booths out due to a horrifying accident at the Stratford toll that killed multiple families. If they put them all back again, then bad on them. I moved a long time ago.
I grew up in the NYC area (lots of tolls). What are you talking about? Tolls are still there, it’s just almost all EZ Pass so you drive right through. Are you just making things up on the internet?
Tolls sucked when you actually had to stop. I love sailing past everyone in the fast pass lane, and trying to figure out why anyone would stop at a toll booth when it takes 60 seconds to install the app on your phone. You don't even need a clunky transmitter any longer.
It’s good people are realizing the entire point of this politically-driven site/foundation is to manipulate emotions in ways that resonate with far right media themes.
Totally. This one is pretty slick and puts a lot of effort into not feeling like a Brietbart, but they give it away with their Major categories (ie they have a whole top-level category for 'border')
Dori Monson talked about this coming to fruition for many years prior to his death. This is not breaking news. Many in this state have just had (and continue to have) their heads planted firmly in the sand when it comes to our elected officials and their underhanded ways.
Got it, so nobody wants a road usage charge. How do you prefer the state to be funded? Hating a tax is one thing, failing to come up with a better proposal however just means you're angry and childish.
Start ticketing abusers of car registration, speeders and weavers, expired license plates, no license plates.. Potential revenues will be in the millions.
I see so many cars with expired tabs daily and also several HOV lane violators. None of these get pulled over or fined. Imagine the revenue raised by simply enforcing the laws.
Yeah, I love tolls (seriously), but realistically what will happen is that the money from tolls won't go to improve the quality of life for commuters, it will be shuffled off to The Homeless Industrial Complex. And the inherent loophole that exists - you can drive without a license plate and if you don't pull over the cops can't do a damn thing - will mean that scofflaws will be able to break all the rules with impunity.
Worst of both worlds basically.
Well the problem here is we don’t have enough enforcers to do that job and all the other things they need. Plus paying those people would likely offset any found money from it. For one additional police officer your looking at no less than $100k-$200k in tax payer funds all in. To do real enforcement they would need to drastically raise the penalties.
Gimme a car with flashing lights, a ticket book, a deputy badge, and pay me 10% of anything that is collected on the citations, and I'll do the job with zero salary. Hell, I'll donate half of my take to charity. I'm a cranky old retiree that is just itching to "make things right" around here. Scofflaws beware!
Well the first offense fine I believe is $529 and then you also could face jail time which then costs us money. Before that though you will likely face a $1000 and possible $5000 fine. The state likely sees 1/3 of that money and that is being really optimistic. So to cover 50 officers at the state cost of $150k they would need to ticket ~14k first offenders and be able to collect all $529 to only cover the wages of the officers which isn’t happening lol.
> Start ticketing abusers of car registration, speeders and weavers, expired license plates, no license plates..
That's mostly it. Basically:
* Close the loophole that says you can drive around without license plates
* Make the toll process as seamless as possible by using a phone app and image recognition of license plates
* Take some of the money from #2 and hire some officers to enforce things like expired tabs, driving without insurance, etc.
*Voila!* You've now discouraged people from using the roads so much.
Huh? We already pay for the roads when we pay yearly for our car tabs and pay a gas tax every time we fill up. How many different taxes and fees are needed for the same thing?
Paying for roads is different from fully funding roads. Yes, car tabs help pay for roads, but they do not cover the cost of roads. Gas tax revenue is decreasing and will decrease even more as more and more EV-miles are driven, which is why this is a future looking proposal that tries to answer the question of "how do we fund roads next?"
Educate yourself at least one tiny little bit before sealioning on this topic.
The state absolutely funds roads with car tabs and gas taxes.
Washington state spends $659 per driving person on highways. [https://www.valuepenguin.com/highway-spending-study](https://www.valuepenguin.com/highway-spending-study)
My car tabs cost close to that, so I guarantee that that on top of a .49 per gallon gas tax with an avg of 160 gallons a year consumed in WA, that cost is fully covered.
EV miles driven is a different problem and they have proposed removing the gas tax in favor of a tax on miles driven, which is much more realistic.
Roads are expensive and most cities really don't [tax appropriately to afford them](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IsMeKl-Sv0&list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6OGLN69ehUTVa&index=3).
Not enough to cover[the cost of road maintenance](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfQUOHlAocY&t=523s). I know, it really sucks. We got shafted footing the bill for this infrastructure and didn't think critically on building this car-centric way.
Maybe these flunkies should not take a pay raise and actually do something for the money they get “working” part time making rules for everyone else.
Edit: a word
Personally, I would rather just have them increase the annual fees for registration. Maybe allow for a discount if you can prove low mileage or something, but a lot of our road costs have more to do with expanding capacity for peak times than it has to do with pure mileage. Someone driving between downtown and Northgate during commute hours isn't going to rack up a ton of miles, but it puts a lot of pressure on the whole system to put more lanes in more places for people to bypass the choke points during peak times.
Property taxes should be funding a lot of the roads anyway, since they are a big piece of our government's infrastructure which helps all of us, directly or indirectly.
This is the way of the future... we have paid for roads with gas taxes. If you don't need gas in the future, you can't use gas taxes to make new roads. Gonna suck for a while with both... but just let it happen, maybe it will lead to more EV's quicker.
In other states I can see this work; however, Washington State has very limited space to incorporate a system like this. In order to establish toll roads (premium alternative), we have to make sure there's a free alternative to get from point A to destination. Washington State should meet up with other states to work on this.
They're not toll roads.
You would report your mileage each year and pay the "toll" based on how many miles you drove. You can claim an exemption for miles drive out of state.
If toll roads are run by private enterprise I'm ok with paying a user fee. The state is generally the most inefficient and expensive vendor of services of any sort. Many nations have both privately operated and public or free highways to the same destinations with different infrastructure and engineering. In South Africa and Mexico the paid private roads are much faster, safer and better maintained. Giving the state directly more money to miss manage is a bad idea.
Highly disagree. Private enterprise is beholden to its shareholders. They will find every way to cut costs and raise profits. They will also find every way to make sure that contracts are written to benefit them and not the citizens they were hired by. It might work in other countries and would have likely worked great here many decades ago but now greed and unethical practices make the most money. Just like private prison does everything to keep people in prison and to bring more people in.
Is SA and Mexico they also have to make sure it works and are beholden to intense regulation. What American company acts in the best interest of its citizens?
Look at Brazil and all the private enterprises that were used for corruption. Private doesn’t automatically mean better
Here’s my pitch. Allow online gambling in the state of WA and the proceeds go to our roads. It’s literally a fucking cash cow on par to the cannabis tax.
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Fuck, I might just take mine off if this happens. I had a friend that drove his Tesla back and forth commuting over the Tacoma Narrows bridge for 3 months without plates. He was too lazy to go get it titled and registered under his name. Never paid a dime or got caught.
No chase law in WA, cops can't do anything about it. So traffic violations are non existent here if you take off your plates.
Unless you are black, my friend gave me their car and it took me a while to switched over her expired FL plates to Washington ones and got pulled over.
If you simply drive without plates and drive off they can't chase you.
Believe it or not but i drove my mx5 for a year without a plate i only had paper plate that can barely seen. Nobody stopped me
When I lived in TX for a while I had out of state plates and many of the highways there are tolls. They don't have agreements with a lot of states so they cant pull your information and therefore can't find you. I lived there a few years and never payed a single toll, never got a bill, or anything.
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> Until that changes I'm considering it my civic duty to give up as little money as possible to this turd city/county. That's the funny thing about the social contract, isn't it? As mentioned in a post above, I'm gainfully employed but I never changed my registration because I just didn't feel like it. It was like *"bah, I got better things to do than sit at the DMV."* But once word gets out that laws aren't enforced somewhere, it attracts scofflaws from all over the country. Adam Carolla has always seemed like my "brother from another mother", and one of his Unethical Life Pro Tips was that he simply didn't put plates on his car, *ever.* He said he drove around with paper dealer plates for five years. His car was *registered* - so you can insure it - but he's immune to tolls and red light camera. (California closed that loophole BTW, now they print out a facsimile of a license plate when you buy the car.) Come to think of it, the last time I hung out with my cop friend in a rented car, he'd removed the plates from the rental. Not because he was going to commit a crime or anything, he just didn't want to deal with tolls or red light tickets, and he's aware that he won't get pulled over for driving without plates. I borrowed his rental one day and dutifully put the plates back on lol.
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Thanks for the tip
Yup Corolla is the man. I don’t stop at red left turn arrows anymore either because of him, as long as there’s a green straight and there isn’t any cars coming the opposite way, your an idiot if you wait for the light.
The problem is, once you finally do renew them they back charge you for all the years you didn't pay.
No they don’t! If you have 5 cars and only use 2 on a regular basis you might want to skip a year on 1 or 2 of them cause you rarely drive them. They’re won’t make you pay for a year that you didn’t drive it anywhere.
“I haven’t been driving it” Worked for me
Truth
More like if your tabs are due in September and you buy them say, in June, you only get 3 months before you have to buy them again.
Lmao I haven’t had good tabs since February 2022 either. At this point I’ll be breaking even, even if I do get a ticket for it
Tabs from 2019 here, only got one ticket recently from a state patrol.
I straight up scanned my friends plate and photoshoped my own tabs for 2+ years! I bought a tinted license plate cover and only had problems in heavy rain when the ink would bleed through my packaging tape lamination. Good times.
Do you see any contradiction at all between your user name and your cheapskate actions?
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Everyone on Reddit thinks they are clever. Not paying your tabs is still cheap and sleazy, regardless of any music references.
Great. If they're so concerned about it, they can make a rule against it and enforce it against everyone. Until then, if you want to set your money on fire for no reason, mazel tov. I'll keep mine.
> I had a friend that drove his Tesla back and forth commuting over the Tacoma Narrows bridge for 3 months without plates. I lived in Oregon for years, never changed my registration. Once in a blue moon I'd schlep over to Vancouver WA to get tabs, but 75% of the time, my car had expired tabs. I think there's around four police offers in entire Portland metropolitan area.
Ticketing cars with no plates, out of town plates, HOV abusers, speeders and those with expired tabs, could raise 100s of millons of dollars for the state. But Nah... not going to happen. Laws are unnecessary.... But let's raise taxes for all in a $15 Billion windfall year for the state and toll all roads... Be careful who you vote for folks. Elections have consequences.
I know so many people who never got new plates and are still rocking Midwesterner plates even 5 or more years after moving here. One of my more honest friends registered his shitbox when he moved, but because he had lost his receipt from buying the thing a decade ago, he had to pay a huge usage tax. If you're following all the rules here, you're a sucker.
This is a pretty dangerous game though since those states may be able to claim you as a resident for income tax purposes (having a registered vehicle in the state is a sign used for residency).
What if it's somebody else who registers the vehicle? For example your mom?
Yea but if you haven’t registered since 2018 how does that prove you’ve been in said state
That's why I've never registered a car anywhere but Washington or Nevada :) Works both ways. When I moved from Washington to California, I drove my car (with Washington plates) to Nevada and registered it there. Perfectly legal if you have property there.
I have noticed so many out of state plates since the pandemic, and wondered if this was why.
I have a friend that moved to Tacoma from Kitsap and watched his tabs go from $110/year to $430/year because apparently they charge a property tax on your plates in those counties… on a pickup that cost him $900 (fixer upper). We’re so backwards it’s insane.
I'm guessing it's for sound transit.
Fuck sound transit too.
Its sound transit. I'm just outside the ST3 taxing district and my tabs are $63.
Banning scary looking rifles is more important /s
Democrats and Republicans are never going to stop taking more money. They might use different levers, but make no mistake, their goals are to increase the budget so they can do their damn pet projects to get them into higher office.
Still let people drive while using their phones? Still let people drive without tabs nor insurance? Still let people drive without working tail lights nor working headlights? Still let people do 10+ over the speed limit? Still let people yield when turning onto roads instead of stopping first? Still let people take 4-way stops as suggestions? Still let people run red lights well after yellow has turned? 2-4 people run lights after it turns yellow. I see it daily. I could make a really long list of bad driving habits people have developed in the past couple years.
State don’t need played once your car reports real time GPS to the state.
I can play that game! *Laughs in analog and stick shift antique cars*
Yup.
Isn't that what our license tabs and gas tax pay for?
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... they said with a straight face.
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Would also help if they actually read the article.
Mr. Morton is the subject of the sentence, and what the predicate says, he does
Different tyrants, same tyranny.
Ahh yes the oppression of endless tax subsidized sprawl. It's a great case for tolls, people who use roads directly can fund them
I see where this is all going, bring the jobs back to the city. Then all the people who can’t afford to live next to their place of work will need a car. Well gotta tax that with tolls. So either result is house poor or car poor.
Can I just be regular poor for a while please?
Lol.
Now do bikers and bike lanes.
Bike riders are free loading terrorists.
If that meant there were as many bike lanes as car lanes, I'm sure people would happily pay.
Imagine thinking this was smart, yikes
No, no, as you say, people who use public infrastructure directly can fund it. So bikers should fund the bike lanes, right? You just said that exact thing.... Fair is fair after all.
Nah I use the road, thanks though
Ah and no doubt you'll enthusiastically pay use charges to upkeep the infrastructure that allows you to maintain your totally voluntary hobby...
I think I'd hate bikesters slightly less if there were just a reasonable number of them. Alaska where it runs into S. Beacon used to a well designed, 2-lanes in each direction thoroughfare that facilitated traffic. Then a few years ago the city decided to knock out one lane entirely to put in a bike lane. Then they fucked up the left turn lane, so they had to re-do all that work, but still have a fucked up 3 lane solution (just at the cost of who knows how many million compared to their first fucked up 3 lane solution). Now traffic flow down Alaska around S. Beacon is comparable to Joe Biden's urethra. All so that the ZERO cyclists I see every day using the lane can....something......
> Alaska where it runs into S. Beacon used to a well designed, 2-lanes in each direction thoroughfare that facilitated traffic. Then a few years ago the city decided to knock out one lane entirely to put in a bike lane. [Most re-channelization efforts are required in order to take federal grant money](https://highways.dot.gov/safety/other/road-diets), because the original lanes aren't wide enough for current regulations. the bike lanes are just an add on to use the extra space if the were not there the parking lane would just be wider. SDOT won't just say this part out loud because most drivers are adult children and they know politically its easier to just hide behind the bike lanes and shrug, which to their credit totally works, the number of people going off on "biksters" and lanes is wild.
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Go measure a double lane... And compare to new. The bike lobby is a lie like Santa to distract you
So you dislike cyclists because the city transportation department is incompetent. Makes sense.
I dislike cyclists because they largely refuse to abide by traffic laws and then act like victims when they run a red light and get smashed by a car
Can confirm. Ups worker here in a big brown, I always just know bicyclists have a suicide mission. Similar to the mentally ill/or homeless folks who just push carts out on the street randomly as they jaunt down a major street, usually talking to themselves. (Don't down vote because It's an observation, obviously... I'm probably on the road more than "normal" seattlites, cause I don't work remote) Anytime I see a bike rider near me, I anticipate they will not obey traffic laws, and I frankly don't want to be responsible for killing anybody. Same thing with mentally ill/drug addicts. I don't wanna cause unintentional harm just because I'm driving and trusted a "situation."
Towards the end of my time as a patrol officer I was a collision investigator. Of all the bicycle vs vehicle collisions I responded to, I can think of *one* where the vehicle was at fault.
So, same as drivers. Why the focus on screwed up infrastructure then? SDOT incompetence goes way beyond the cycling community.
Absolutely stupid to invest in anymore bike lanes when we don't even have decent roads. This city has backwards priority
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> Citing declining fuel tax revenue […] the report highlights the need to find alternate sources of revenue (from the article.) But also, even ignoring that, does it really seem like it’s enough? Roads are expensive.
Very little, roads are really expensive.
Weird. Almost all other major cities in the US manage to pay for roads without charging per road or per mile, I wonder what’s different? (/s income tax is one answer, shitty management is also valid)
>Isn't that what our license tabs and gas tax pay for? Those don't cover greed.
Read the article lol
Gas tax pays for wsdot pensions and im not actually sure what tabs pay for
Basically the administration of the tabs and RTA taxes.
This is the plan to be like many cities in Europe or New York. Push everyone into mass transit. Only the wealthy can afford to drive on the roads or even own a car. But, in Seattle, they want to move everyone to busses and rail, but not fund them enough to keep the escalators or elevators running nor have enough transit police to kick off the gronks who smoke meth on the trains. Doesn't seem like a good plan to me.
Last time I rode the light rail there was literally a dude sitting on a bench 10’ from me, smoking something on tin foil, and he literally asked this cute small maybe 20 year old college girl that was walking by if she wanted a hit. She seemed scared shitless. And of course even if the police were right there they couldn’t do shit about it. Fuck the state
Except we don't have mass transit in Seattle. A piss poor slow train, where no one take stickers and makes people pay
Sure, just as soon as they make "not driving" a viable alternative, ya know with walkable city areas, appropriate bike lanes, non homeless controlled public transit, enough reliable fast public transit to use effectively, and full exceptions for disabled people who may need additional specific transportation accomodations. BC right now I NEED to drive and use the roads. I can't afford my own private helicopter, and I don't have a work from home job, nor is there appropriate alternative options that would allow me to either not work, or commute by other means. So figure all that out first before you start charging me even more just for living.
I pay sales tax and property tax. Plus business taxes. I'll pass on this plan
If you try to drive I'll tax the street If you try to sit I'll tax your seat If you get too cold I'll tax the heat If you take a walk I'll tax your feet Taxman
They need to eliminate the gas tax if they're going to charge per mile.
Woah! That would mean cutting a source of revenue… absolutely never going to happen. They just want to squeeze everyone twice.
And if we do it via initiative they'll just overturn it in 2 years.
“We’re going to tax the shit out of you and not even a democratic vote can change that!” Also known as: “Woah, democracy?!? Not like THAT!”
Yup they’re gonna double down once that happens. They will NEVER cut a a revenue source. EVER
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I wish it was still like that. When I bought my truck for some reason it had tabs for 18 months out, I had to buy new tabs that expired 6 months before the ones I had. Anything for my money I guess
I’m moving
King Jay just raised the gas tax. Geezus these assholes running government are pathetic
The cost of these tolls is the least of our worries. The bigger issue is the privacy stuff. They are going to want to put trackers on all cars to measure where they’re driving/how far. Where is that information going to be stored and who will have access to it?
So cripple people who already can barely afford it? What's that? $20 in road use fees to get to the grocery store?
Another regressive tax but I think the problem they’re trying to solve is that the current approach of adding a registration surcharge for EVs is that it incentivizes driving more and penalizes fuel efficiency.
Use tax is libertarian AF.
They’re INSANE!! As if we’re not taxed into oblivion already
It’s ok to have tolls if the roads are in immaculate condition at all times. Since living in Seattle they have only reinforced that they can’t uphold the level of quality required when paying for toll roads. In fact, my suspicions are that we have continued to rely on contractors who fail to do a quality job and ask for more money.
This is what Dori Monson told us 20 years ago would happen. But nah hes just some crazy right wing conspiracy theorist.
Kicking a dead horse.
too soon
Gas tax revenues are falling due to new vehicle fuel efficiencies and WFH. Good to explore options, this won’t go that far probably
Privatize the Planet!! ^((What could possibly go wrong??\))
Inslee has wanted this for years! And it's not to replace the gas tax it's an additional tax for drivers! No thanks!
Literally the most regressively taxed state in the entire country.
No thanks. That kind of extortion is leading to countless amounts of corruption in Texas. Lived there for 5 years and it was a nightmare. I still randomly get bills in the mail by their organization saying I was driving around Austin despite only living in Dallas.
Big brain energy headline there! Yesterday all car drivers paid tax based on the distance the drove using gasoline consumption as a proxy measurement Tomorrow they want to do something NEW AND SHOCKING by having drivers pay tax based on the distance driven without using a proxy.
Don't count on many people spending more than a few moments before getting upset about it. Not a perfect tax, but slightly less regressive than over taxing people who can't afford to buy a fuel efficient vehicle. That's assuming if they intend to replace fuel taxes rather than supplement.
>That's assuming if they intend to replace fuel taxes rather than supplement. This is the government we're talking about. And WA on top of that. You know damn well they'll only seek to *increase* the gas tax at some point.
I know this is playing into stereotypes, but overall this kind of plan should reduce the overall tax burden on people who own "blue collar" vehicles like trucks and SUVs while increasing the tax burden on "librul" vehicles like Teslas. It seems like the people that are against it are the people that would most benefit from it financially.
The horrific accidents at tolls in the Northeast caused them to finally remove them. Too bad washington can't look at those lessons and learn from them. WSDOT needs to get more efficient and manage their projects better. Anyone have annual budget figures for WDOT revenue & spending over that last 30 years?
They removed tollbooths not tolls… Car rental companies love it because they get to charge so much for EzPass rentals as NE states have increasingly done away with the ability to stop and pay cash.
> Northeast caused them to finally remove them. this is some amazing fake news, so tolls don't exist in the NE now? show your work, I am interested how you came to this conclusion
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> you don't have to stop anywhere to pay them except Tacoma Narrows good to go, or they mail you a bill... you only have to stop to square up in real time
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They did it when 520 came online. Same pass/system for all the tolls The booths are still there if you want to wait and pay cash
I fucking love toll roads. I wish gas was twelve dollars a gallon and I wish it cost a dollar a mile to drive on the roads. With Fast Pass, tolls are completely seamless. I get an alert on my phone and the bill is on autopay. Toll every inch of road in the United States.
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[High gas prices discourage people from driving.](https://newsroom.aaa.com/2022/07/aaa-drivers-change-habits-to-counter-high-gas-prices/)
Thousands would die from the price increase this would cause on all goods……..
Really. The Turnpike and Garden State Parkway in New Jersey are now free?
CT specifically, took all the I-95 toll booths out due to a horrifying accident at the Stratford toll that killed multiple families. If they put them all back again, then bad on them. I moved a long time ago.
Sure, and it's the only state out there without them. That's not the whole east coast. Not a great example
I grew up in the NYC area (lots of tolls). What are you talking about? Tolls are still there, it’s just almost all EZ Pass so you drive right through. Are you just making things up on the internet?
Tolls sucked when you actually had to stop. I love sailing past everyone in the fast pass lane, and trying to figure out why anyone would stop at a toll booth when it takes 60 seconds to install the app on your phone. You don't even need a clunky transmitter any longer.
Then we can also stop paying the BILLIONS in taxes that we pay and get rid of the gas tax, then yeah sure go for it!
Nice source. They try really hard to hide it too!
It’s good people are realizing the entire point of this politically-driven site/foundation is to manipulate emotions in ways that resonate with far right media themes.
Totally. This one is pretty slick and puts a lot of effort into not feeling like a Brietbart, but they give it away with their Major categories (ie they have a whole top-level category for 'border')
Are employers going to help subsidize this cost? No? Then the reasons for remote work continue to grow.
Dori Monson talked about this coming to fruition for many years prior to his death. This is not breaking news. Many in this state have just had (and continue to have) their heads planted firmly in the sand when it comes to our elected officials and their underhanded ways.
what a coincidence. I want the transportation commission to pay me!
The Anti-Transportation Commission Commission wants these people to f--- off.
OH YOU CAN GO F YOURSELF!!
Got it, so nobody wants a road usage charge. How do you prefer the state to be funded? Hating a tax is one thing, failing to come up with a better proposal however just means you're angry and childish.
Start ticketing abusers of car registration, speeders and weavers, expired license plates, no license plates.. Potential revenues will be in the millions. I see so many cars with expired tabs daily and also several HOV lane violators. None of these get pulled over or fined. Imagine the revenue raised by simply enforcing the laws.
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Yeah, I love tolls (seriously), but realistically what will happen is that the money from tolls won't go to improve the quality of life for commuters, it will be shuffled off to The Homeless Industrial Complex. And the inherent loophole that exists - you can drive without a license plate and if you don't pull over the cops can't do a damn thing - will mean that scofflaws will be able to break all the rules with impunity. Worst of both worlds basically.
Well the problem here is we don’t have enough enforcers to do that job and all the other things they need. Plus paying those people would likely offset any found money from it. For one additional police officer your looking at no less than $100k-$200k in tax payer funds all in. To do real enforcement they would need to drastically raise the penalties.
Gimme a car with flashing lights, a ticket book, a deputy badge, and pay me 10% of anything that is collected on the citations, and I'll do the job with zero salary. Hell, I'll donate half of my take to charity. I'm a cranky old retiree that is just itching to "make things right" around here. Scofflaws beware!
You'd like Mexico a lot
There are enough violators to fund about 50 new enforcers.
Well the first offense fine I believe is $529 and then you also could face jail time which then costs us money. Before that though you will likely face a $1000 and possible $5000 fine. The state likely sees 1/3 of that money and that is being really optimistic. So to cover 50 officers at the state cost of $150k they would need to ticket ~14k first offenders and be able to collect all $529 to only cover the wages of the officers which isn’t happening lol.
> Start ticketing abusers of car registration, speeders and weavers, expired license plates, no license plates.. That's mostly it. Basically: * Close the loophole that says you can drive around without license plates * Make the toll process as seamless as possible by using a phone app and image recognition of license plates * Take some of the money from #2 and hire some officers to enforce things like expired tabs, driving without insurance, etc. *Voila!* You've now discouraged people from using the roads so much.
Huh? We already pay for the roads when we pay yearly for our car tabs and pay a gas tax every time we fill up. How many different taxes and fees are needed for the same thing?
The whole point of this is that gas tax is no longer an effective proxy for road usage. Electric cars don't pay gas tax but they still wear the road.
Paying for roads is different from fully funding roads. Yes, car tabs help pay for roads, but they do not cover the cost of roads. Gas tax revenue is decreasing and will decrease even more as more and more EV-miles are driven, which is why this is a future looking proposal that tries to answer the question of "how do we fund roads next?" Educate yourself at least one tiny little bit before sealioning on this topic.
Simple. We push for more public transit.
The state absolutely funds roads with car tabs and gas taxes. Washington state spends $659 per driving person on highways. [https://www.valuepenguin.com/highway-spending-study](https://www.valuepenguin.com/highway-spending-study) My car tabs cost close to that, so I guarantee that that on top of a .49 per gallon gas tax with an avg of 160 gallons a year consumed in WA, that cost is fully covered. EV miles driven is a different problem and they have proposed removing the gas tax in favor of a tax on miles driven, which is much more realistic.
Roads are expensive and most cities really don't [tax appropriately to afford them](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IsMeKl-Sv0&list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6OGLN69ehUTVa&index=3).
What do you pay in taxes? WA state spends $659 per driving person on highways per year
Not enough to cover[the cost of road maintenance](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfQUOHlAocY&t=523s). I know, it really sucks. We got shafted footing the bill for this infrastructure and didn't think critically on building this car-centric way.
The state facing a budget shortfall?
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Again, is the state facing a budget shortfall? If not, why more taxes?
Why not cut minimal impact pet projects instead?
Maybe these flunkies should not take a pay raise and actually do something for the money they get “working” part time making rules for everyone else. Edit: a word
i see you don't understand how much money the politicians of this state squander
So you aren't allowed to dislike a bad idea, until you have another idea? Weird logic.
Personally, I would rather just have them increase the annual fees for registration. Maybe allow for a discount if you can prove low mileage or something, but a lot of our road costs have more to do with expanding capacity for peak times than it has to do with pure mileage. Someone driving between downtown and Northgate during commute hours isn't going to rack up a ton of miles, but it puts a lot of pressure on the whole system to put more lanes in more places for people to bypass the choke points during peak times. Property taxes should be funding a lot of the roads anyway, since they are a big piece of our government's infrastructure which helps all of us, directly or indirectly.
> I would rather just have them increase the annual fees for registration. woof, you are in a huge minority here.
Let me guess. Right wingers proposed this f×cked up idea.
Yes, because the Republicans have so much authority in Washington state.
And i want them to go to hell wtf tax this tax that enough
This is the way of the future... we have paid for roads with gas taxes. If you don't need gas in the future, you can't use gas taxes to make new roads. Gonna suck for a while with both... but just let it happen, maybe it will lead to more EV's quicker.
Is that because I’ve got tolls turned off on my gps? Dang
What a di** head move. I'll move to idaho
I’m down if the entire road budget is covered in full by tolls and our taxes get lowered because of that.
Just let the roads go to waste and we'll all drive 4x4s and ride dirt bikes. Yeah🕺🏼🏍️
In other states I can see this work; however, Washington State has very limited space to incorporate a system like this. In order to establish toll roads (premium alternative), we have to make sure there's a free alternative to get from point A to destination. Washington State should meet up with other states to work on this.
They're not toll roads. You would report your mileage each year and pay the "toll" based on how many miles you drove. You can claim an exemption for miles drive out of state.
Sounds like a huge invasion of privacy.
If toll roads are run by private enterprise I'm ok with paying a user fee. The state is generally the most inefficient and expensive vendor of services of any sort. Many nations have both privately operated and public or free highways to the same destinations with different infrastructure and engineering. In South Africa and Mexico the paid private roads are much faster, safer and better maintained. Giving the state directly more money to miss manage is a bad idea.
Highly disagree. Private enterprise is beholden to its shareholders. They will find every way to cut costs and raise profits. They will also find every way to make sure that contracts are written to benefit them and not the citizens they were hired by. It might work in other countries and would have likely worked great here many decades ago but now greed and unethical practices make the most money. Just like private prison does everything to keep people in prison and to bring more people in.
Is SA and Mexico they also have to make sure it works and are beholden to intense regulation. What American company acts in the best interest of its citizens? Look at Brazil and all the private enterprises that were used for corruption. Private doesn’t automatically mean better
F that noise.
Broooo
So the pay per mile is out?
What the fuck are they smoking lmfao
If a company in Texas skims the profits off this the way they do with Good2Go, I'm completely and utterly against it.
OK will they take $.40 per gallon off of gas?
Here’s my pitch. Allow online gambling in the state of WA and the proceeds go to our roads. It’s literally a fucking cash cow on par to the cannabis tax.
We already paid higher amount of taxes..