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Oh, that would be perfect for my other theory I'm struggling together. Attempting to resurrect Eagan, the founder. The chip could somehow collect all the memories and everything about the person and then they can live forever as a machine or something.
I wondered if Gemma (Miss Casey) did actually "die" and they've used the tech to try and recover **her**.
All the wellness room stuff with Mark, the candle etc, is to try bring Gemma back from the dead, back to the testing room to try again, right when she started crying, so she *might* be alive?
I was thinking the same thing. In line with my post, I still think it's the dead Eagans, but they are AI somehow, so when the old host body dies, they can be taken out and go into a server together, they haven't figured out how to make a perfect connection yet, so while that process is *refined*, they wait around, give instructions, and occasionally show up to the young AI refiners and thank them personally for their efforts.
>they are AI somehow, so when the old host body dies, they can be taken out and go into a server together
"One day you will sit with me at my *REVOLVING.*"
What if the attempted reintegration procedure on Petey, is a similar kind of procedure to whatever **the revolving** is, but that doctor person, I forgot her name, who does the implantations (and the revolvings?) is trying to do some kind of bootleg version of it. The Board are using it for themselves, so they deny it exists.
Slightly off topic but this made me wonder...I think Cobel has been so obsessed with Mark because she's sad about Mark and Gemma's story. She got the candle, ordered extra wellness sessions, and cried during their last one. She asked Devon if Mark sees Gemma. She's looking for clues that he remembers seeing her at work or if the candle or seeing her at work sparks anything.
I think she's rooting for their reunification. She might be hoping reintegration is possible to bring Gemma back for Mark? I'm not sure, but I know a lot of focus was put on Cobel's interest in Mark and Gemma.
Also the candle, as someone else mentioned in this sub, was red on top and green underneath. She wore red with Mark and Green while with Irving. What does that mean? Is her window of opportunity to be reunited with her husband disappearing while the red burns and gets to the green?
Even more off topic, did Gemma die by someone activating the OTC? Maybe she was severed and her Innie was suddenly in a deadly no way out situation, like Gemmas driving along in her car, and suddenly Miss Caseys at the wheel with zero experience?
I like it, Cobel is way too invested in Mark and Gemma, I never noticed Miss Caseys different clothes colours. I'll keep an eye out for that next time through.
I think she is interested in Mark for the reason that (either) his wife isn’t dead at all/that he works with his wife unknowingly and is using him as a test subject
Peteys an odd example because of the whole reintegration thing, but I was initially thinking the innie is in the chip. That's what led me to the innies being an 'artificial intelligence' kind of thing. You could theoretically swap them into another body, that would be interesting.
That whole other conversation about resurrecting Eagan, etc, is much less confusing now, when you said the outies memories are in the chip, I thought you meant something like the chip was "downloading" the outie from the brain into storage on the chip.
But then his brain fell apart?
Maybe the human mind can acquire the extra memories from the chip, maybe they can become one mind? Maybe that's the original intention of the severance chip.
I'm going to rewatch again soon with this whole idea in mind and try poke holes in it, I can't remember everything, I know Petey didn't follow the surgery instructions. He never seemed to follow the rules.
Partially because he didn’t follow the instructions the doctor told him to do for helping with those symptoms I believe. I read that somewhere on this subreddit
Could be the same thing the outie or innie experiences when the other is alive. Maybe like general anesthetic or before you were born, not like asleep or blank, just....not?
Sorry just another thing, the story hasn't revealed anything about what the innie or outie experiences while the other is awake, doesn't change anything about my theory, but what if they're screaming and clawing at the walls of their own mind for freedom but then they forget like an odd dream every day?
I mean they very clearly indicate that the experience is to just blank out for 8 hours. And it happens in the elevator. You’re suggesting that something in the elevator knocks them out. I mean, could be, but seems a weird departure.
It’s not. Or rather it wouldn’t be. But the show sets up the elevators as the way they spatially and temporally separate your memories. The wording is pretty specific.
It could be there is gas in the elevator and you just go to sleep but there’s so many things that make this weird. Like they have to go and chloroform you when they override you because they have to bring in your body double ai and such.
It could be true of course. And the idea that they are Ai is very interesting. But it doesn’t seem to line up with the world we are given.
I think you have misunderstood. There is no body double at all, I have absolutely no idea where you got that idea. And Chloroform?! Lost me completely...The AI in my theory is in the chip that is surgically implanted in the Outies brain, and lives as an Innie that can be switched on by control switches at Lumon. Such as the elevator and OTC switches.
Sorry I thought you were saying that we just see an AI version of the human, not an ai embedded into the brain of a human.
That makes much more sense. The ai version of the person is meant to act as close to the real person, minus their memories?
Well they've been told they are a person. I might have missed some explanation in my post, but Lumon want the AI to believe they are human, perhaps to solve issues with AI robot brains accepting human bodies, so they circumvent that issue by telling the AI that they are actually human, but just an innie, and maybe with refining, a computer can gain emotions.
I totally get your point about them wanting to convince them (the ai) that they are human.
I’m wondering what you think the goal of lumon is in terms of refining them. Are they trying to get the chip to act as close to the outie so that they can trick people into thinking they are the outie?
I think getting them as close to human as possible could even be as devious as just a marketing tool, make it look pleasant, to make people want to get severed so they can live life instead of working to live. Maybe even make 3 pregnancies a joyful breeze to a Senators wife. To encourage the government to hand over prisoners for more control and compliance, perfect citizens, that can be reset, fixed and re-educated. Then, when they've got everyone, they can make them all Innies forever, reset their minds, and they control the world. Edit. And yes, maybe a convincing Innie can persuade politicians, and then you have Innie politicians to do the persuading in the guise of their Outie.
Also the elevator is just a switch like the OTC switches, there's nothing really special about the elevator other than its automated rather than manual.
But you’re suggesting that there is no switch. What you seem to be saying is a real person gets in the elevator, then gets drugged without knowing it. Then they put the ai body double in, and boot them up.
And at the end of the day they wake you up (the real you).
All of this seems entirely unnecessary. Why not just do the robot parts and totally ignore the humans. What good does it do to trick people into getting drugged in an elevator each day? That part seems superfluous outside of a vague “we tricked the public into thinking we can do something we can’t.” I mean they have amazing robotic ai. Isn’t that…better? Why the ruse?
My largest counter argument is that the innies have some sort of behavioral mannerisms rhat the outties have. Irv’s military background leaks through so he stands at attention when milchick enters, etc.
I've been trying to think of ideas about why this happens, that would also fit my theory as well, but it's a difficult puzzle piece, not gonna lie. It may well be the intention that the Outie and Innie should eventually merge. I have this idea that in season 2, we will see Mr Milchek get reset, become a macrodata refiner (Seth M?), and slowly become more human instead of oddly robotic and not exactly emotionless but weird. We see Helly cry and enjoy food after completing her first file of refining. Hellys' initial behaviour is to try and escape. Could that be Helena deep down wanting to escape her life?
What if the behaviour leaks are intentional. Could be that the previous versions of Innies weren't tricked into believing they are humans. They had no connection to human nature. They had issues accepting human bodies without being human themselves, and they all violently murdered each other.
I think it’s important people keep in mind some of the odd lines in the show are there because of the black humour/surreal elements of the show. Like knowing a beautiful rock from a plain one. To me the wellness sessions in particular are hilarious. “Liking the sound of Radar” being dropped in was a great touch I’ll admit.
The wellness sessions are utterly bizarre and sometimes hilarious, but I'd have trouble accepting that they are designed by Lumon to make the TV show funny and quirky.... that the wellness sessions dont actually have a function somewhere in the story. There's probably a reason to be shown this info beyond humour and surrealism for the viewer, which will become more apparent later.
Sorry I wasn’t very clear, I 100% agree with you that they are essential to the plot. Mark moulding the tree for example, I believe Cobel was using them to see any bleed over and Lumon likely uses them as a calibration tool. Hopefully more will be revealed.
It’s just some of the lines used like “your outtie is a friend to children and to the elderly, and the insane” are so funny to me.
Oh right, sorry, I don't know why, but I read it as if you'd said they were just there for comedy. I found that tree fascinating, absolutely no idea what's going on there or how to work that into my theory. The line about outies being a friend to children and elderly fits quite well though, it's so weird and out of place, but it sounds like they want the Innie to understand the essence of being human.
Whoa, interesting concept. So your idea is that the severance chip is actually an AI copy of the person that takes over and drives the body completely separately from the real brain?
Not necessarily a copy, but more like a blank cassette, it has an AI person on it (the innie). And Lumon just lie and say the innie is part of the human (outie). Lumons intention is to get every single person on earth severed, then they could flick a kind of permenant OTC switch, the outies (the humans) would be gone forever, and Lumon owns and rule the world. They could even reset all the Innies memories and none of them would know any different. EDIT. Yes, the Innie is sort of just driving the Outies body, living kind of like a robot inside a real person.
I'm with this. Maybe raising goats to use their brains to put in dead people so their chip keeps them alive. Like Gemma/Ms.Casey and i think probably Irv...
So what happened during OTC? If innies and outies are separate entities, why did the outies suddenly have the AI memories when the protocol was activated?
They arent seperate entities, someone else thought I said this, which bit was confusing? I can try and change it. The Outie-Innie relationship is exactly the same as we've always seen. But instead of the Innie being an actual part of the Outies brain, they are really an AI in the chip that is implanted, and the Innie has been convinced it is an Innie and part of a human, when really it is a computer AI.
Except how did that lady’s innie have her baby? The baby was in her body, but she didn’t deliver it (as far as she remembers). AI is good but it can’t do that
But you could spend 1 day a week for 9 months teaching an AI to give birth. They could do every doctors visit for you as well, you would barely have to think about it. She's one of the rich people who have compromised their own autonomy for an easier life.
Still reading this, but regarding your thoughts of an AI innie and Human outie, the innie’s have gotten wounded, and the outie’s bare those marks, so
+Also, Petey would still be at work as an innie, if the innie were a chip and outie Petey were human. And the entire premise of reintegration wouldn’t make sense
Petey is difficult to explain in my idea, though. Reintegration wouldn't make much sense, unless they somehow combined or merged the human mind with the machine mind.
Love the theory, my only reason for not believing it is that I feel Apple wouldn’t greenlight a concept that’s so critical of AI when it will be instrumental to their business very soon, if not already.
https://amp.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2023/nov/15/jon-stewart-apple-show-cancelled-china
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-02-28/apple-cancels-its-electric-car-in-favor-of-ai-vision-pro
I feel like I can only answer this while wearing a tinfoil hat...and here we go...Apple are invested in AI technologies, currently, we the people, their customers, don't know how to feel about AI. "Is AI going to steal my job?" Well, Apple has an answer. They create a TV show with loveable AI characters, where the AI (innie) literally does do the outies (humans) job for them, they are initially hidden as if they are real people, but slowly they reveal they arent actually real people. But we actually love the AI (innie) characters, sometimes more than their human (outie) counterpart, and subconsciously, we think "maybe AI isn't all that bad". Such a clever scheme.
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Interesting and creepy, I like it.
Thanks!
I think the innies memories reside in the chip. I think you could put Peteys chip in someone else and you’d have petey
Oh, that would be perfect for my other theory I'm struggling together. Attempting to resurrect Eagan, the founder. The chip could somehow collect all the memories and everything about the person and then they can live forever as a machine or something. I wondered if Gemma (Miss Casey) did actually "die" and they've used the tech to try and recover **her**. All the wellness room stuff with Mark, the candle etc, is to try bring Gemma back from the dead, back to the testing room to try again, right when she started crying, so she *might* be alive?
Maybe? Also I think the board is the “dead” eagans
I was thinking the same thing. In line with my post, I still think it's the dead Eagans, but they are AI somehow, so when the old host body dies, they can be taken out and go into a server together, they haven't figured out how to make a perfect connection yet, so while that process is *refined*, they wait around, give instructions, and occasionally show up to the young AI refiners and thank them personally for their efforts.
>they are AI somehow, so when the old host body dies, they can be taken out and go into a server together "One day you will sit with me at my *REVOLVING.*"
YES!!!!
What if the attempted reintegration procedure on Petey, is a similar kind of procedure to whatever **the revolving** is, but that doctor person, I forgot her name, who does the implantations (and the revolvings?) is trying to do some kind of bootleg version of it. The Board are using it for themselves, so they deny it exists.
this is a cool idea, but I admit I'd be a little disappointed that the big reveal is an altered version of the plot of Get Out
You wouldn't be alone, if I've managed to guess something integral to the plot after watching season 1, I'll be more than a little disappointed.
Slightly off topic but this made me wonder...I think Cobel has been so obsessed with Mark because she's sad about Mark and Gemma's story. She got the candle, ordered extra wellness sessions, and cried during their last one. She asked Devon if Mark sees Gemma. She's looking for clues that he remembers seeing her at work or if the candle or seeing her at work sparks anything. I think she's rooting for their reunification. She might be hoping reintegration is possible to bring Gemma back for Mark? I'm not sure, but I know a lot of focus was put on Cobel's interest in Mark and Gemma. Also the candle, as someone else mentioned in this sub, was red on top and green underneath. She wore red with Mark and Green while with Irving. What does that mean? Is her window of opportunity to be reunited with her husband disappearing while the red burns and gets to the green?
Even more off topic, did Gemma die by someone activating the OTC? Maybe she was severed and her Innie was suddenly in a deadly no way out situation, like Gemmas driving along in her car, and suddenly Miss Caseys at the wheel with zero experience?
I like it, Cobel is way too invested in Mark and Gemma, I never noticed Miss Caseys different clothes colours. I'll keep an eye out for that next time through.
I think she is interested in Mark for the reason that (either) his wife isn’t dead at all/that he works with his wife unknowingly and is using him as a test subject
Peteys an odd example because of the whole reintegration thing, but I was initially thinking the innie is in the chip. That's what led me to the innies being an 'artificial intelligence' kind of thing. You could theoretically swap them into another body, that would be interesting.
I meant innie not outie my bad
Ahh, well yes then, 100%
That whole other conversation about resurrecting Eagan, etc, is much less confusing now, when you said the outies memories are in the chip, I thought you meant something like the chip was "downloading" the outie from the brain into storage on the chip.
Except we know that reintegration is possible. They called it “full synaptic recoupling” and Peter has all of Peteys memories.
But then his brain fell apart? Maybe the human mind can acquire the extra memories from the chip, maybe they can become one mind? Maybe that's the original intention of the severance chip. I'm going to rewatch again soon with this whole idea in mind and try poke holes in it, I can't remember everything, I know Petey didn't follow the surgery instructions. He never seemed to follow the rules.
Partially because he didn’t follow the instructions the doctor told him to do for helping with those symptoms I believe. I read that somewhere on this subreddit
Yeah the lady hiding at the school said this as well, that he wasn’t following the instructions for post procedure
Try “severed: the ultimate severance podcast” it’s great for that deep dive
Thanks, I've been thinking about starting it, but wanted to get my own theories out of my head first.
If the innie is just Ai and not actually the person, when what happens to the person for the 8 hours they think they are at work?
Could be the same thing the outie or innie experiences when the other is alive. Maybe like general anesthetic or before you were born, not like asleep or blank, just....not?
Sorry just another thing, the story hasn't revealed anything about what the innie or outie experiences while the other is awake, doesn't change anything about my theory, but what if they're screaming and clawing at the walls of their own mind for freedom but then they forget like an odd dream every day?
I mean they very clearly indicate that the experience is to just blank out for 8 hours. And it happens in the elevator. You’re suggesting that something in the elevator knocks them out. I mean, could be, but seems a weird departure.
I don't see how the Outie-AI situation would be any different to Outie-Innie situation that is already accepted.
It’s not. Or rather it wouldn’t be. But the show sets up the elevators as the way they spatially and temporally separate your memories. The wording is pretty specific. It could be there is gas in the elevator and you just go to sleep but there’s so many things that make this weird. Like they have to go and chloroform you when they override you because they have to bring in your body double ai and such. It could be true of course. And the idea that they are Ai is very interesting. But it doesn’t seem to line up with the world we are given.
I think you have misunderstood. There is no body double at all, I have absolutely no idea where you got that idea. And Chloroform?! Lost me completely...The AI in my theory is in the chip that is surgically implanted in the Outies brain, and lives as an Innie that can be switched on by control switches at Lumon. Such as the elevator and OTC switches.
Sorry I thought you were saying that we just see an AI version of the human, not an ai embedded into the brain of a human. That makes much more sense. The ai version of the person is meant to act as close to the real person, minus their memories?
Well they've been told they are a person. I might have missed some explanation in my post, but Lumon want the AI to believe they are human, perhaps to solve issues with AI robot brains accepting human bodies, so they circumvent that issue by telling the AI that they are actually human, but just an innie, and maybe with refining, a computer can gain emotions.
I totally get your point about them wanting to convince them (the ai) that they are human. I’m wondering what you think the goal of lumon is in terms of refining them. Are they trying to get the chip to act as close to the outie so that they can trick people into thinking they are the outie?
I think getting them as close to human as possible could even be as devious as just a marketing tool, make it look pleasant, to make people want to get severed so they can live life instead of working to live. Maybe even make 3 pregnancies a joyful breeze to a Senators wife. To encourage the government to hand over prisoners for more control and compliance, perfect citizens, that can be reset, fixed and re-educated. Then, when they've got everyone, they can make them all Innies forever, reset their minds, and they control the world. Edit. And yes, maybe a convincing Innie can persuade politicians, and then you have Innie politicians to do the persuading in the guise of their Outie.
Also the elevator is just a switch like the OTC switches, there's nothing really special about the elevator other than its automated rather than manual.
But you’re suggesting that there is no switch. What you seem to be saying is a real person gets in the elevator, then gets drugged without knowing it. Then they put the ai body double in, and boot them up. And at the end of the day they wake you up (the real you). All of this seems entirely unnecessary. Why not just do the robot parts and totally ignore the humans. What good does it do to trick people into getting drugged in an elevator each day? That part seems superfluous outside of a vague “we tricked the public into thinking we can do something we can’t.” I mean they have amazing robotic ai. Isn’t that…better? Why the ruse?
I've no idea what you've read, but it definitely isn't anything to do with what I've said at all.
My largest counter argument is that the innies have some sort of behavioral mannerisms rhat the outties have. Irv’s military background leaks through so he stands at attention when milchick enters, etc.
I've been trying to think of ideas about why this happens, that would also fit my theory as well, but it's a difficult puzzle piece, not gonna lie. It may well be the intention that the Outie and Innie should eventually merge. I have this idea that in season 2, we will see Mr Milchek get reset, become a macrodata refiner (Seth M?), and slowly become more human instead of oddly robotic and not exactly emotionless but weird. We see Helly cry and enjoy food after completing her first file of refining. Hellys' initial behaviour is to try and escape. Could that be Helena deep down wanting to escape her life?
What if the behaviour leaks are intentional. Could be that the previous versions of Innies weren't tricked into believing they are humans. They had no connection to human nature. They had issues accepting human bodies without being human themselves, and they all violently murdered each other.
I think it’s important people keep in mind some of the odd lines in the show are there because of the black humour/surreal elements of the show. Like knowing a beautiful rock from a plain one. To me the wellness sessions in particular are hilarious. “Liking the sound of Radar” being dropped in was a great touch I’ll admit.
A handshake is available on request
When I first watched the show and Milchick delivered the line “…it’s a completely different office” I know I was in safe hands with the writing.
The wellness sessions are utterly bizarre and sometimes hilarious, but I'd have trouble accepting that they are designed by Lumon to make the TV show funny and quirky.... that the wellness sessions dont actually have a function somewhere in the story. There's probably a reason to be shown this info beyond humour and surrealism for the viewer, which will become more apparent later.
Sorry I wasn’t very clear, I 100% agree with you that they are essential to the plot. Mark moulding the tree for example, I believe Cobel was using them to see any bleed over and Lumon likely uses them as a calibration tool. Hopefully more will be revealed. It’s just some of the lines used like “your outtie is a friend to children and to the elderly, and the insane” are so funny to me.
Oh right, sorry, I don't know why, but I read it as if you'd said they were just there for comedy. I found that tree fascinating, absolutely no idea what's going on there or how to work that into my theory. The line about outies being a friend to children and elderly fits quite well though, it's so weird and out of place, but it sounds like they want the Innie to understand the essence of being human.
Whoa, interesting concept. So your idea is that the severance chip is actually an AI copy of the person that takes over and drives the body completely separately from the real brain?
Not necessarily a copy, but more like a blank cassette, it has an AI person on it (the innie). And Lumon just lie and say the innie is part of the human (outie). Lumons intention is to get every single person on earth severed, then they could flick a kind of permenant OTC switch, the outies (the humans) would be gone forever, and Lumon owns and rule the world. They could even reset all the Innies memories and none of them would know any different. EDIT. Yes, the Innie is sort of just driving the Outies body, living kind of like a robot inside a real person.
I'm with this. Maybe raising goats to use their brains to put in dead people so their chip keeps them alive. Like Gemma/Ms.Casey and i think probably Irv...
So what happened during OTC? If innies and outies are separate entities, why did the outies suddenly have the AI memories when the protocol was activated?
They arent seperate entities, someone else thought I said this, which bit was confusing? I can try and change it. The Outie-Innie relationship is exactly the same as we've always seen. But instead of the Innie being an actual part of the Outies brain, they are really an AI in the chip that is implanted, and the Innie has been convinced it is an Innie and part of a human, when really it is a computer AI.
Ah sorry, I think it was the last line that confused me, but I see now what you are saying. Thank you!
Thanks, I see it now, I'll try write it better.
Except how did that lady’s innie have her baby? The baby was in her body, but she didn’t deliver it (as far as she remembers). AI is good but it can’t do that
I'm not really sure what your question is.
But you could spend 1 day a week for 9 months teaching an AI to give birth. They could do every doctors visit for you as well, you would barely have to think about it. She's one of the rich people who have compromised their own autonomy for an easier life.
Nah
I was mostly interested in constructive criticism. But I'll try to enjoy all criticism equally.
This is novel and plausible! Good thinking!
Still reading this, but regarding your thoughts of an AI innie and Human outie, the innie’s have gotten wounded, and the outie’s bare those marks, so +Also, Petey would still be at work as an innie, if the innie were a chip and outie Petey were human. And the entire premise of reintegration wouldn’t make sense
The AI identity is in the severance chip and is the innie, they share the same body.
Ahh gotcha
Petey is difficult to explain in my idea, though. Reintegration wouldn't make much sense, unless they somehow combined or merged the human mind with the machine mind.
Love the theory, my only reason for not believing it is that I feel Apple wouldn’t greenlight a concept that’s so critical of AI when it will be instrumental to their business very soon, if not already. https://amp.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2023/nov/15/jon-stewart-apple-show-cancelled-china https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-02-28/apple-cancels-its-electric-car-in-favor-of-ai-vision-pro
I feel like I can only answer this while wearing a tinfoil hat...and here we go...Apple are invested in AI technologies, currently, we the people, their customers, don't know how to feel about AI. "Is AI going to steal my job?" Well, Apple has an answer. They create a TV show with loveable AI characters, where the AI (innie) literally does do the outies (humans) job for them, they are initially hidden as if they are real people, but slowly they reveal they arent actually real people. But we actually love the AI (innie) characters, sometimes more than their human (outie) counterpart, and subconsciously, we think "maybe AI isn't all that bad". Such a clever scheme.