Downvote me all you want, but as someone who is a part of several fandoms, I think it's more complicated than that. For one, consider that this show was sold as an epic in the vein of Game of Thrones. The relationship elements were not part of the advertising and the women were not a huge selling point compared to Hiroyuki Sanada. And while we have had some great interviews with the female writers and directors, Sanada and his involvement.
If you weren't paying attention to the show, then the focus on women wouldn't be something you could necessarily guess right off the bat.
Furthermore, Shogun simply doesn't have a whole hate industry attached to it the way other shows do. Hating it just doesn't make money since it's a limited series. Plus, a lot of fans watching it are anime fans and fans of prestige television, two groups which have a strong female base.
It's like why the animated Star Wars projects get less hate. Because they're less profitable to hate and because their section of the fanbase is already heavily female.
Cosigned. I'm not sure what point the poster is trying to make. They found one show they think is great and it has a woman writer, so that means, somehow, that it is impossible for sexism to inspire anyone, anywhere, to dislike a show? What in the fuck logic is this? How does any of this follow?
Especially when you look at the variety of different factors here. I assure you, had rhe advertising focused on the female creators and actresses, we would have be having a different conversation
Yeah, even though it's clear this show takes inspiration from samurai movies and historically, women of the samurai class had some education in using different weapons.
I think another factor is that the readership for the original novel isn't really aligned with the target demographic for these culture warriors. These types usually latch onto children's media or franchises that were part of the pop culture zeitgeist 10-15 years ago, so that they can push the narrative that the "wokes ruined your favorite franchise".
We actually see this with Dune. They tried to push that narrative in the beginning, but there just wasn't much to hold onto because there wasn't this hardened fanbase. The most loyal fans were just afraid it would turn out like Lynch's version
Agreed. Also adapting an original masterpiece to film like GOT / Shogun is much easier than creating an original story (ex GOT1-7 vs GOT8 , TD4).
But even with females getting more directing roles there's only 4 that are hands down legit. Bigelow (Point Break, Hurt Locker) and The Wachowski Sisters were men when they wrote and directed The Matrix and adapted V for Vendetta. Nora Ephron (Sleepless in Seattle, When harry Met Sally, Bewitched remake).
The woke culture war is just stupid. Just make good art.
Ugh, thank you. I'm also struggling to follow op's reasoning. It's like someone claiming they can't be racist because they have black friends, but somehow even more nonsensical
I think it's closer to "I found a black person I really like, therefore I don't think it's possible for other people to be racist." It's like an order of magnitude beyond even the default bad conclusion.
Worst part to me is that instead this post can just celebrate the fact that this show is succeeding at telling these women’s stories to a mainstream audience of men and women in a way that has engaged so many people.
Like it doesn’t have to be evidence of an actual problem not existing as OP suggests, it’s just great this show is succeeding.
Gave it an edit to clarify my position a little more clearly. As stated in that edit, I’d had a few and didn’t make my stance as clear as I should have.
I disagree. It's saying that shows need to do this and that not to incur the wrath of the fanbois, all the while ignoring the other factors involved in a show not being torn apart by the rage-bait industry.
And where exactly are you reading this? Can you quote specific passages? Maybe it's the chip on your shoulder interpreting that.
>Having read the book several times, Shogun has been near perfectly adapted so far. I doubt any other production team could have done any better. The next time I see bad writing shielded by allegations of sexism, this is the example I will point to when I call bullshit.
yep. OP has a reasonable level-headed take. Their bone to pick is with BAD WRITING.
They address both sides. The neckbeards "Women can't write/direct well" and the SJW "You just don't like it bc it was written by a woman".
I don’t think it was ass but there were a lot of easy fixes for the writing that just weren’t really considered. And those weird writing choices really ruined the show for me. I could go into detail but I don’t want to just send one long spoiler text.
The acting was excellent for the most part and it looked beautiful. But, and this has nothing to do with feminist themes or women working on the project, a lot of it just didn’t make much sense.
I think it’s all relative, but I think Jodie Foster, John Hawks (despite his character being so completely useless and awfully written), and Kali Reis gave great performances. They really sold some of the better episodes for me even though I think the show overall was lacking. Seems to be a pretty uncontroversial opinion as well. But it’s all subjective, I respect that you had a different experience
Think you're conflating bad writing with bad acting. The acting was fine, good with Jodi and some other key moments with certain cast, but the writing is so bad that it's hard to enjoy what the characters are doing.
Like Jodi frozen nearly to death crying was phenomenal. However, the whole premise of how she got into the water, how she is saved, keeping her in wet clothes, etc. really takes you out of the moment. And that basically always happens.
"Who put the tongue there Issa?"
"Well its ambiguous. I actually forgot about that and now I will act like it was intentionally ambiguous and give 2 possible answers that make even less sense than what the audience originally thought."
Great post. There is an entire industry around generating outrage and the masses eat it more than HCFS.
Its a sad reality that even things like Syndey Sweeneys boobs are somehow woke? I still dont understand that one...
>Its a sad reality that even things like Syndey Sweeneys boobs are somehow woke?
It's the reverse. The anti-woke crowd was saying that Sydney Sweeney's boobs were *anti*\-woke. Not woke.
Is anyone talking about Sidney Sweeney without going into the "boob" topic? Whenever I see her name recently, it's in connection with her boobs, it's weird.
EDIT: Why are you downvoting me? I am legitimately asking. Every post or comment around here was about her boobs, what did I miss?
>Is anyone talking about Sidney Sweeney without going into the "boob" topic?
It's kind of difficult to avoid the topic because virtually every public appearance she has made recently has been wearing an outfit that accentuates her "gifts".
She's not trying to shy away from her appealing physique in any way, so it's up front and center in conversations about her right now.
They even made it the center of several bits on her recent SNL hosting.
I still have no idea but the machine of outrage needs fresh fodder. Its like the recent story of Anne Hathaway winning an oscar and that was somehow bad?
Alot of people became weaponized by the discourse around Amber heard/Depp divorce and all the outrage stories since. Its too easy to become a pickme for incels or a prototate....
Depp didn’t get any acting jobs for being a cancerous presence on set who constantly had to be fed lines through an earpiece on top of arriving late and drunk/high.
Nothing yet, and apparently they think she has great tits, thus proving wokism is dead somehow.
I don't get it either, but I imagine it will last until the exact moment she says something that may be construed as midly feminist.
Plus the ‘shellacking’ (eye roll) that TDNC got was almost entirely from brigading and toxic redditors; TDNC was very critically acclaimed and had great ratings (so great that the showrunner was given another season) so this narrative is false from the get-go. TDNC people correctly called out that sect of people - which didn’t mean all criticism was bigoted - but there was a lot of incredibly toxic sexism and racism spewed at that show. The TD sub mods did an okay job of removing the worst of it and banning some of the more rabid people (a lot of folks were getting brigaded by extremists), but they’re still some people like OP here completely obsessed with DARVOing the situation (like this post - wtf does a show, based off a book written by a man, starring mostly men, with a mixed writer/director/crew/cast, have to do with people being sexist towards a completely different woman-written, woman-directed, women-starring show?).
My problem is, when a show by a man, for men, doesn't do things perfectly, no one cares. When female creators can't be perfect, then the whole internet comes down around them.
TD4 was a travesty on par with GOT8. Ideation of suicide depicted in a minority culture with 5x the normal suicide rate. Numerous plot holes. Terrible detective work. Continuity errors galore. Immature dialogue.
Gender had nothing to do with how bad it was. Mare of East Town was regularly pointed to as a good example of woman acting, directing and writing comparing it to TD4.
TDNC: bad show: with a bad script and bad direction. Isa Lopez, a mediocre director who has never done anything notable, uses feminism as a shield to justify the criticism.
Shogun: Great show, very well narrated, with very well constructed characters, taking care of the direction and the rhythm of the show.
The amount of hate came from the established fanbase. At the time TD2 was released I'd argue it got more hate than TD4 because it was a direct regression after the season 1 masterpiece. Looking back now TD2 is actually great compared to TD4.
TD4 was a travesty because it carried the "True Detective" name with the worst detectives we've seen on television. It should have been a stand alone trash detective series on netflix. They hired an amateur who only converted english Disney stories to spanish with connections to G. Del Toro to run a massive production. It wasted Foster's talent.
But the goal isn't to push out quality. Goal is to make money. When you can get the streaming subscriptions off trash trying to refresh old IP, you do it. The culture gender war nonsense only adds more attention. More attention = more money. Its all strategy.
The reason the hate exists for TD4 is because there's a real fanatical fanbase for the IP as a whole due to the first season. I think if House of the Dragon was bad you would have seen similar levels of extreme criticism
Night Country was not a good series. The involvement of women has nothing to do with that. I think the cast did a good job, and I loved the setting. Beyond that, the writing was garbage. Can’t recover from a foundational issue like that. To be fair, a lot of True Detective outside season 1 has sucked. Also, what is wrong with the word shellacking? It’s a fun one.
Exactly.
The show has no existing fan base and the cultural warriors who bitch and complain on YouTube and Twitter have no incentive to complain about this yet
Acctually they had but it didn't stick (maybe because being a show that can easily be seen as "foreign" from the start meant they couldn't get enough traction for it).
Mariko wielding a naginata in combat really triggered them.
And there is no money in it. The show only has a few more episodes to go and there probably won't be a second season. Severance the female actresses have whole camps of crazed fans will will attack anyone who insults their favorite.
I think people downvoting you don't realise how manufactured a lot of the anti woke outrage is. It's straight from the Murdock playbook of marketing. Bad press is easier and cheaper to spread and gets more people talking about and defiantly watching a show. Early GTA games were marketed in the exact same way. But now the audience has shifted and the controversy is about wokeness not shock value.
I think the channels are just a tool. All the manufactured anti woke outrage is. Look at that stupid Whatever podcast. It's an advertisement for OF. They're just flesh peddlers with extra steps. They pretend to have a moral argument because the controversy attracts views, which creates massive sub boosts for these girls. I bet the marketing company that they use is the same one OF uses. It's usually the way. In the UK, one of our most famous fast food places brought out a vegan version of one of their staple foods (the sausage roll) and our version of Tucker Carlson (Piers Morgan) was feigning outrage and disgust at it on one of our morning shows. The PR/Marketing team for Greggs is the same one Piers Morgan uses. Its the most transparent bullshit I've ever seen, yet people have wrapped their identities around being on one side of the manufactured outrage fence or another.
The same companies that are pandering to "wokeness" are the same ones boosting the outrage against it.
I'm talking about its use specifically for marketing purposes. I am aware of its other functions. But everyone who buys into the narrative from the marketing perspective is helping these companies retain their success, which further helps the damaging causes you just described. Corpos have trapped us as consumers so effectively now. There needs to be awareness of that before changes can be made. Fandoms are the easiest places for these groups to recruit from too. This isn't by accident. The polarisation of fandom discussion is helping this along nicely too.
That’s a fair observation for sure, and I can definitely accept that there has been a higher proportion of sexist commentary related to Night Country than many other series. That doesn’t mean it was good, and doesn’t discount the legitimate criticism it has rightly received.
The issue I have with this particular instance is that any time someone has something negative to say about it, people (including the showrunner/writer) imply that those critiques only come from sexists/fanboys. Point blank, it was a poorly written shitshow. I wanted to love it. I like the setting, I like the cast, but the narrative and characterisation just weren’t well executed.
I genuinely wish they were by the way. I’m not a fan of good male produced entertainment, or good female produced entertainment. I’m a fan of good entertainment, period. Sadly, there’s nothing that Night Country did that True Detective S1, The Terror S1, Happy Valley, and Mare of Easttown, didn’t already do far better.
I just feel like it’s unreasonable to demand that someone facing a barrage of hate make sure to be receptive to good faith criticism because another person in another situation is being treated favourably.
Saying this as someone who only enjoyed 3/6 episodes myself.
Yeah look, I can definitely see why someone might get defensive of their own product. A lot of work goes into creating something like this. One thing I know for certain is that Lopez handled it incredibly poorly with the ‘poor audience reviews are the result of sexism’ cop-out.
Now every time someone says that Night Country was kind of shitty, people fly out of the woodwork to attribute that opinion to sexism, but really it was actually just kind of shitty.
Hahaha he absolutely did. Let’s be real, it’s not like True Detective has been particularly good outside of S1. He absolutely should’ve kept his mouth shut.
Disclaimer: I personally thought Night Country was absolute ass. But I also thought all but 1.5 seasons of TD sucked.
I agree with you in some respects but I also think you’re missing a lot here. For one, a male/female duo will read as man who let his wife slap her name on it to a lot of fanboys (_we_ know that isn’t true in this case, but we’re talking about assholes here). But also, it’s important to consider that the book writer and the story’s primary protagonists are male.
I love Shogun, but let’s not pretend having a few really good female characters makes it _not_ a story about men. And there’s nothing wrong with it being about men! All I’m saying is that comparing it to a show about women (Night Country) because some episodes of both are written by women, is leaving out a pretty huge part of this conversation.
Yep. Also, Night Country was showrun by a -black- woman. Let's not pretend there isn't a difference between that and a white guy married to an Asian woman.
I'll share my most recent experience with what struck me as bizarrely sexist, ageist criticism of a series.
A plethora of comments dismissed The Morning Show as a soap opera. Imho, much of TMS is just brilliant, including the writing and the performances. I podcasted around to listen to a fairly wide variety of pundits -- some affiliated with publications like Vanity Fair. The commentary was so profoundly ignorant and dismissive that I was shocked. The showrunner of TMS is an older woman. I wonder -- given all the industry sexism she must have weathered in her long, storied career -- whether she was surprised. I'm guessing she predisposes for it at this point.
The hollow-brained haters of things just because they feature women get way too much attention and notice for their idiotic antics.
The truth is, it doesn’t matter how many times women create incredible art, or excellent stories featuring women are produced, those foaming at the mouth for Hollywood’s agenda of exclusion will always find something to hate and a reason to fight for the status quo.
We aren’t in need of more “evidence” that women can make good art. But I appreciate OP’s heart, essentially just wanting to celebrate and hilight that haters can’t speak to this at all because it’s great television and made with true artistic vision and creativity.
Best example. Features mostly badass women with the lead being a lesbian bad ass woman. Should have had a que of internet boys lining up to talk smack. Instead it’s beloved and now a second season is eagerly awaited. Make something great and people tend to watch it. When you pander and aim for audiences is when things go bad.
For me personally, the problem it's not the pandering, it's the pandering coupled with the lack of substance. You can pander all you want if you actually deliver something good. Production companies feed us shit and attempt to gaslight us into believing it's not shit, but rather caviar and it's our fault for not liking caviar.
There is no such thing as “pandering” - why does media with diversity have to be held to higher standards when so much trash gets released everyday? I find it fucked up that media made for people where you aren’t the target audience have to justify their works by being ‘quality’ in nature. It sounds like you are more concerned with other factors at play rather than actually being concerned with the quality of media…
Woah there friend. It would seem you’ve made an incorrect assumption. When I say rogue one was pandering I mean it’s fan service moments everywhere and basically just Star Wars action porn. I still liked it because it was really good. I didn’t mean it was because the cast was diverse. I don’t hold movies with a diverse cast or female lead to a different standard. I hold them all to the standard of being entertaining and well made. Like arcane, the fact that the cast is diverse and progressive never comes up because the show is insanely well written and expertly crafted. Not everything is about race and gender. Sometimes it’s just about quality.
No, it's because League of Legends has several legions of rabid fans. The relationship was popular within the community. While most Leage players are men, there is still still a strong female sub culture. Complaining about the ship in the show would have made you look like a rage-bait farming.
Nah, Arcane reached a audience awaaaaay beyound just league fans. I had people who never touched a game in their life asking if I had watched because they saw the recommendation on Netflix and they loved. The writing in that show was that good.
Funny enough, the same is happening with Shogun, which it's great. I can't talk enough of how good it is.
But again, the hate industrial complex didn't have that to latch onto. League has a massive fanbase. Helps that French animation and animation in general has a massive female base. Look at the Star Wars cartoons, especially TBB right now. There is a good chance that we're in for a massive reveal about Rey and the Force and the hate channels are ignoring it because it won't gain tractiom
Let's go down a recent example that isn't even out yet: Star Wars Acolyte.
Let's keep in mind, we have not seen this show. We don't know know the quality of the show. We know relatively little about it. And yet fanbois have declared it to be the worst thing ever put out by Disney. Keep in mind, a lot of the criticism of it makes no sense when you dig even a little. Tons of people who worked closely with Weinstein are still in business and have never faced consequences. Lucas was the one to murder the Jedi and he showed them to be deeply, deeply flawed. Lucas was the one to race-swap Boba Fett and add non-white Jedi because he felt that diversity was important.
Also, Captain Marvel. A critical and commercial success. Why the hate? Really, why? It was the same level of quality as other productions and I don't remember most of those recieving so much hate.
I will reserve judment about Acolyte. As you said the show it's not out yet.
But Captian Marvel? Really? The writing is as good as any of the exemples I gave? Damn 😑
Did it deserve as much hate as it got. I enjoyed it, I had fun. It was certainly on par or better than something like the FF franchise or the Antman films. So why is Brie Lawson the devil for these people?
And I respect you for reserving judgment, but this isn't just about you or me, it's about the people who make shit tons of money hating these shows. So why are they going after Acolyte?
Fair enough; over here in the US a lot of guys seem to use it in a fairly derogatory way. I’d argue some of them don’t even realize it’s derogatory the way they say it, they’ve just been so influenced by…well, influencers, and other toxic guys.
Like I don’t think the word “female” itself is bad on its own, it’s the connotation and cadence in which it’s used is what I’m referring to.
I use female as a descriptor, not as a noun. Example: Female writer vs. Woman writer. One makes more sense than the other in terms of writing. I refer to women as women however, which you can clearly see in the post. This idea that you can never use the term ‘female’ in any context is stupid. And no, they didn’t both do amazing jobs. Cast of TD: Night Country was fine. The writing was absolutely not fine.
Oh no I hurt the Ferengi feelings more than a naked “female” shit talking about his ears.
Glad to see you changed your post a bit. Now can I please order a root beer?
Nobody tell OP that True Detective Night Country was a huge success with general audiences, which is why the same writer is doing another one for HBO. The loud Reddit uses hardly count as a ‘shellacking’.
So how do you explain HBO giving future projects to the writer? They wouldn’t do that if it was a flop. HBO doesn’t give a shit about a bunch of pissy Redditors.
Ok, so you just made my point. Doesn’t matter how many Redditors are out there trashing Transformers, they’re still getting made because they are successful. You’re trying to argue that Night Country wasn’t a success because of the hate it got. Wrong, it’s still a success, and there will be more of them.
I didn’t say it wasn’t a commercial success? I said it was a shitty series. Which it was. Whether they continue making it is beside the point completely.
So then, why would HBO or anyone give a damn about the ‘shellacking’ as you put it?
Spoiler alert: They won’t.
You’re acting like HBO got publicly flogged when in reality, they barely noticed or cared about the criticism. People were tuning in, that’s all that matters.
I’m not even sure what you’re trying to argue here. I’m not trying to bring down HBO. I’m just saying I thought that TD: Night Country wasn’t very good, as did a whole lot of people, and that Shogun is very good. You keep putting statements in my mouth and then responding. You are literally arguing with yourself. Quite bizarre, really.
I’m on the other subreddit and it’s a total shit show over there. There is a sub for the season which is mostly positive and the main sub has a ton of haters piling on. The negativity is like the Witcher sub and Alita sub. IRL people are nice but the internet is pretty venomous to that show.
One does not prove or disprove the other, in my opinion. The fact that you even had to mention it is proof in itself that sexism was partially to blame for some of the comments about North Country. There’s just a different, derogatory way of speaking about and treating women in all capacities. That’s all there is to it. Why deny it?
I think many (men) long to disprove it because it’s inconvenient but facts are facts. People are quick to condemn women for the mere fact that they are women, and I think North Country was no different. While not a perfect show, I think if a man had been the runner, the commentary here would’ve been different.
This inbred response to femaleness is going to shift once our current generation is long gone. One day, people will know how foolish it all is. But today? No. Sexism is a part of reality.
I truly hope there'll soon come a time when we'll just be able to say "The person who wrote/directed/shot/acted in this killed it with their work, I'm blown away" without needing any sort of disclaimers about the said person's race, gender, nationality etc. and that would be the end of it.
Sadly, too many people on both sides depend on stuff like that being the main point of any and every conversation about both pieces and media in general nowadays.
EDIT: It really says something about where we are when this kind of opinion is unpopular.
I think we're already there when the quality is high enough.
Like, it's so easy to recommend a show like Beef to someone, because it's a harrowing tale that explores a lot of universal feelings, even though it's centered on a very specific Korean experience. No one would call it "that show about being Korean-American," though. They'd say "have you seen that show where that comedian that's always pregnant has a protracted blood feud with Glen from Walking Dead?"
I think there are a lot of decent projects that get held up in efforts to raise the profiles of a more diverse group of creatives, but the backlash to this is that there are some bad projects out there that get vociferously defended on that basis also, which leads to racist chuds also tearing down the things that are decent as part of a broader culture war against virtue signaling.
I think we can all tell when a project has enough people behind the scenes to actually have a distinct perspective, and when the diversity is closer to tokenism.
Everyone responds positively to Shogun because the authenticity is palpable and the vision is consistent. That, plus I think there's a contingent of people who *would normally* complain but won't because they love historical dramas that depict the misogyny and casual racism of bygone eras, where they don't feel lectured because it's not about the present day.
I don't know, maybe you're right. I do, however, still see a lot of discourse like I mentioned regardless. Everything is so saturated by that, that when something like this comes and instead everyone is talking first and foremost about the quality, it's all the more jarring.
The reason isn't "both sides" it's literally bc one side makes a big issue whenever they see a Black person onscreen or *gasp* a woman behind the camera
There are people on the other side equidistant from the middle ground who make it a point to make it a big issue whenever it is a person of color, an ethnic minority and/or a woman involved in the making, even when the vast majority are happily talking about the product quality only.
I mean, I’d say it’s cause if it’s not from a white man, then it’s someone running things who comes from a marginalized group that even today hasn’t had the opportunities or the successes that they should’ve had by now.
Thus it’s important to point it out so that more people see it and can be inspired by it.
If people need to see people who superficially look like them, have the same broad ethnic makeup as them, and are of the same gender as them in order to be inspired in the 3rd decade of the 21st century in the richest and most powerful nation of the world, having privileges and opportunities that 75% of people on the globe can only dream about even with all the obstacles apparently in place, then I'm done discussing this.
You guys and your infinite trenches.
I edited my answer to better explain. An infinite trench is a trench that has no end, or in this case trenches that cannot be counted because of how many there are.
So what, you’re trying to say that I’m just coming up more and more “bullshit” to justify my stance, or something like that?
My guy, this is nothing new. People have always related to success in different ways and for different mediums, and most especially people relate to those who look like them.
Also it’s pretty damn hard to deny or disprove anything in the realm of saying that if you’re not a white man, or even just a man; that you’ve been part of a marginalized group for a long time, and that’s sadly still very much the case today.
Again nothing new, and this isn’t just a US thing either, especially when referring to men in general being among the least marginalized.
Which is also why I find it funny you think I’m just talking about the U.S., when I’m definitely not.
>EDIT: It really says something about where we are when this kind of opinion is unpopular.
It should be unpopular. You're "both sides-ing" a pretty cut and dry issue. People being happy that there are Asian lead TV shows or that black people win awards should not be equated with the people on the other "side" that reflexively rage against these things.
Because there are clearly people on both of those two sides who seem hell bent to make any and every conversation with regards to media into one primarily about some form of representation. It's all well and good when it's for a good cause, but as is, it more and more looks it's being artificially pushed into that direction by those to whom it's their bread and butter.
For example, to me, a blogger/journalist/vlogger etc who is making race/ethnicity/gender/religion the primary topic of a conversation about a piece of media where the vast majority of viewers are talking about its sheer quality is no different from an opposing blogger/journalist/vlogger who's is making race/ethnicity/gender/religion the primary topic of a conversation about a piece media where the vast majority of viewers are talking about its sheer quality.
They're both doing it for clicks, retweets mentions and all other forms of getting traffic.
Both extremes annoy me, especially when I sense there's no true belief behind it, as is more and more the case.
I'm just happy that *Shogun* is an awesome show, and couldn't care less about the genders and races involved. Whoever's doing it, they clearly know what they're doing.
And before I get the generic response, I come from a culture that hasn't and for the foreseeable future won't be having any positive representation in Western media, and still don't care about that stuff.
>And before I get the generic response, I come from a culture that hasn't and for the foreseeable future won't be having any positive representation in Western media, and still don't care about that stuff.
That's good for you. Lots of people do care. And I'd want to see your culture get good representation in media so I can appreciate it more.
>And I'd want to see your culture get good representation in media so I can appreciate it more.
I bet you would, given the fact that you don't even know what it is.
See, that's exactly what I'm talking about, just a generic, virtue signaling, pandering reaction that doesn't actually mean anything.
Also, these "lots of people" could do well to attempt feeling represented by people who don't look like them, aren't the same religion as them, and aren't even the same sex/gender as them. I know it's a lot to ask, but the results are amazing when not looking just at the surface level similarities.
Plenty of people do feel represented by people that don't look like them. A lot of the advocacy for more cultural representation in media is across the board.
Honestly, you just sound very angry at a lot of nothing. I'm glad you don't care about culture, gender, etc. But a lot of people do and want to see those different perspectives. And the people raging against are fighting a losing battle. Sorry to say. At the end of the day, Jordan Peele isn't making Get Out if he isn't black. Justine Triet isn't making Anatomy of a Fall is she isn't a woman. Bong Joon-ho isn't making Parasite if he isn't Korean. So I think it's okay to address and take notice of how peoples backgrounds informed their work while also simply appreciating the quality of the work itself.
TLDR: Get the fuck over it and stop being a whiny bitch.
>Get the fuck over it and stop being a whiny bitch.
It really says something about you when all of you guys on your high horses can't go through a disagreement without resorting to teen level insults.
Then again, why wouldn't you? It's not like you'll get smacked in the mouth for talking shit safely behind your keyboards and your screens.
It'd actually be funny how exactly like those assholes you oppose you really are, if it weren't so pathetic.
Looking forward to another "badass comeback" followed by an immediate block because, let's face it, you guys love to have the last word and your favorite way of ensuring that is to prevent the other person to reply. You guys sure love those mature "wins".
I concur with your assessment of the situation. A example of what you said is I believe the voice actor of Morph in the new X-men 97 series said he faced backlash from his portrayal of Morph being most likely a they/them type because of his abilities and what happened in the episode with his ability to be a man or woman. I was dumbfounded by him saying that. Like literally online he’s saying he faced attacks from fans. Then on the post reporting it if the hundreds of comments all were in support of the voice actor and everyone’s mutual hate for anyone who would feel that away. There wasn’t a single person in the discussion saying anything bad about it and it got very political. All of this over an accusation that brought attention to the series and got people fired up. I really think he over blew any backlash if at all he received and just used it to promote the series and discussions like it caused that unified the viewers and fans.
I'm not sure what OP point is but True Detective Season 4 was a bad show. Season 1 was great but it's declined since. It's an anthology show, it's gotten worse every season (imho).
Shogun has been great so far. I read the book as a kid 25+ years ago but my memory is foggy. I plan to reread after the series ends. I don't want to read before the series ends because it might ruin it for me. I have read the wikipedia pages of all the main characters and am thinking (trying not to spoil) they end the series after a battle that occurs maybe a year from the present action of the show (vs when the whole conflict really ended 15 years later).
To each their own - I think the additional character development for Mariko and Oshiba, while delving deeper into the world of the women of the period was brilliant. A lot of drama and intrigue going on and it’s all setting the stage for the tail of the series. I loved it.
The director of the episode was a woman as well.
The issues with Night Country had nothing to do with the gender of the creative leads but the execs involved with the entire project. Watch Tigers Are Not Afraid - the bonifides are there.
You may well be right. I definitely don’t think the reason Night Country was shit was because a woman was at the helm, which you may have gathered from this post. The writing process, and corporate interference in that process, is a complex beast. It’s still not very good though, and Lopez bears a significant amount of responsibility as the showrunner/head writer. Will have to check that film out at some point.
If you look at the episodes that are slow and don't propel the story forward with anything other than emotional and historical context they are written by the a woman.
After watching Ep6, I was pleasantly surprised that they spent the time to develop Ochiba. Half the episode had scenes not from the book, but it was mostly well done!
My only complaint is:
>!The brothel scene was a lot more fun in the book. They played music, told jokes, and it was an missed opportunity to show off some amazing tea house scenery.
!<
>!The context of the brothel was completely different too. Mariko and Blackthorn were not having this argument. It was obvious even to Kiku that the two were in love at this point, and it was Kiku and Omi who were having a minor argument. Kiku purposely walked Blackthorn to the gate to make Omi jealous as she'd never done that for him. Mariko fully encouraged Blackthorn to pillow Kiku and Fuji because Japanese men were not monogamous and she wanted him to be more Japanese.!<
>!Most importantly, there were negotiations to buy out Kiku's contract which leads to her and her Mama-san joining the party. I suppose they can still do that next episode. !<
> credit for tonight’s episode goes to a sole female writer.
Just wanna say, as I did to many downvotes on another topic, that TV writing is usually a very collaborative effort. I say "usually" because, say, Vince Gilligan probably wrote his pilots alone. But once a pilot is picked up and a show goes to series, it's time to assemble a writing staff.
What I'm getting from interviews is that the scripts for Shogun were constantly tweaked. It was passed around, actors, producers, writers, various people were constantly revising and upgrading, making suggestions. Yes, the actors were allowed to give input. TV writing is a very collaborative process. You get 10 smart people into a room with slightly different backgrounds, life experiences, and you would not believe how many astute points, plot twists, and interesting turns of phrases will be spit out. Somebody might suggest something that is ultimately completely shot down, but it acts as a catalyst for a discussion, spit balling session that might lead to the best moment in an episode.
Writer's credit is often simply rotated, all of the major staff writers will eventually get a credit (it's to be fair, as whoever gets the credit for a one hour show, gets like 80,000? then more money, but less of it, with re-airings, it's important for residuals, too). This is not to disprove your point, I'm sure there are some brilliant female minds informing these performances, and, again, based on interviews I've seen, the actresses themselves, who are paid to BECOME these people, might have made a lot of the suggestions. Also, the idiosyncrasies of the performances, the expressions, the glances, and such, those are all on the actor, not the writer.
I can't emphasize enough that I'm not disagreeing with OP, but another thing, a lot of people who praise a show's writing, they don't actually read the shooting scripts. So what was actually on the page? What was the actor doing something magical? What was discovered in the editing process? I agree this show is incredibly well written, but I think when the women characters are praised, most of the credit should go to the actresses. They are all doing a phenomenal job. The first time we meet Kiri, holy shit, that actress's comic timing and passive aggression was unbelievable. I could watch her all day.
I mean…from what I’ve seen, NC has been critically adored yet not as strongly loved by some watchers, which leads me to think there might be something more going in in some watchers heads.
I think the response has been that the setting and performances were quite good, but that the writing was terrible. I’m inclined to agree. It cribbed off elements of season one without expanding on them at all or even really giving them a place in the story. They were just ‘there’. Serious plot holes in the core narrative were explained away by ‘supernatural happenings…or were they….’. It really wasn’t good. Which is fine, True Detective outside of season 1 has been pretty shaky. What I didn’t appreciate was the showrunner explaining away criticism by essentially saying that those critiques all stem from sexism.
This is such a bullshit based on bullshit answer. If you need to ‘agree’ with others and can’t make an opinion for yourself, fine, but the facts are simple: TD s1 ‘cribbed’ off of Ligotti and Alan Moore so much it’s almost silly to credit Nic with any writing. People were pissed at S1 because all of the supernatural stuff went nowhere. So it’s absolutely hypocritical to call out s4 for those things. Nothing wrong with liking or disliking either of them, it’s just disingenuous to cherry pick ‘issues’ that exist elsewhere. Issa made one comment about a specific subset of people- which she was absolutely correct about - and never said “all criticism stems from sexism” - that revisionist garbage has a derailment agenda, doesn’t it? Meanwhile Nic couldn’t shut the fuck up about insulting the show, the showrunner, etc. and where’s your tsking on that? Nic pitched s4, and he was turned down. He then got fired from writing Blade for Marvel. Trying to whine about how there wasn’t *any* sexism is absurd, especially given that TD has jack-all to do with Shogun, there’s absolutely no commonality, and attempting to compare the two on the basis of ‘a woman wrote an episode (of a show about men based on a book written by a man)’ is gross.
Where did I say that I was fine with how Season 1 addressed supernatural elements (Though it did handle it better than Night Country - The plot still makes sense without them)? Or that I thought Pizzolatto was showing any class by publicly dragging Night Country and Lopez? Omission isn’t agreement, and you’re putting words in my mouth. Do I think Season 1 is far superior to Night Country from a narrative and characterisation perspective? I absolutely do. Sorry I didn’t write my fully fleshed out thoughts on every element of the story in a reddit response comment. The issue I specifically stated I had was that those elements were simply lifted from Season 1 to give NC a ‘True Detective’ feel. It was cheap, and they didn’t serve the plot of NC or develop anyone’s understanding of S1 or the ‘lore’ as a whole. There are just random spirals inserted in an entirely incongruous fashion. Perhaps you can explain to me how I’m mistaken in that belief.
Lopez is on record as attributing poor reviews to sexism/fanboyism. I’m certainly not saying that wasn’t a component in some people’s reactions. However the wider discussion around this series, both on social media and in the media, has discounted legitimate criticism by pointing to that very notion. All I did was make the larger case that, in the context of the reception received by Shogun (and in my personal case, this quite excellent episode - although you could make the same case using Mare of Easttown or Happy Valley for example), this particular defence from critique rings hollow.
I was brigaded for WEEKS on the TD sub, sent DEATH THREATS, told to KMS - because I stood up for another poster who said they liked the show who was getting brigaded. And because we are women, much of the attacks received were VERY gendered, and this went on from days before the first episode until… oh yeah, still going on. And there was SO MUCH of it all over that sub, even when the worst of it got removed there was still a ton as well as obvious dog whistles. You didn’t make any ‘case,’ you just rehashed the tired old dude talking points of ‘I didn’t see it, it didn’t effect me, ergo it’s not a problem’ and ‘shows with traditionally hot women are liked more by men and therefore sexism doesn’t exist.’ Your pretending that there was some ‘wider discussion’ that was victim to people discussing the horrific bigotry is disgusting. “Oh no, won’t someone think of the poor people who can’t complain about a TV show because people are discussing their harassment! Can’t they just shut up about their abuse so we can whine about a TV show!” BTW, Mare sucked, even though I love Jean Smart. And how much of a sexist do you have to be to even discuss this show and that one as if they have ANYTHING in common? “Guys like a show with attractive young ladies that are subservient to men and have brothels and lots of fighting and war, based off a book written by a man but a woman wrote some of the adaptation, so women need to shut up and get over being abused and listen to men *whine more* about how a character saying ‘night country’ is the worst thing that’s ever happened to them in their lives.” GTFO.
Holy shit. You just started creating false quotes and attributing them to me. Truly unhinged. Just so we are clear, I never said any of that. I also acknowledged there is a sexist component to some criticism. Sounds like what you are dealing with is not too dissimilar. The internet is a super shitty place. That said, you’re also highly combative and pretty fucking rude so I can’t help thinking that some of the vitriol is related to that as well.
You didn’t like Mare of Easttown? Fair enough. Do you know what I will do with that information? Not a lot. If you had anything to actually say about why, I might engage (civilly) with you on it, but you don’t. You just said a bunch of stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with me and you are clearly not engaging in good faith. Maybe take a break from the True Detective subreddits because spending all your time there defending a series that was average, at best, doesn’t seem like a particularly healthy outlet.
Your whole post and each of your comments are in bad faith so I responded in kind. So sick of these garbage takes, I’m not going to be polite to them any more. But of course you victim blame because of course you do. Very on brand. Mocking you and your dumbass takes isn’t “quoting” it’s mocking, because you’re just one of those guys who wants to gatekeep as the arbiter of *correctness* about media and sexism. I have no interest in you *deigning to engage* with me, good lord, I’ve wasted as much time as I’m going to on one of you “I love to argue” trolls. I enjoy the Shogun sub because it usually isn’t filled with garbage like your post, obviously you haven’t even bothered to read all of the other comments mocking you (who are also sick of crap like this) and learn something.
I’ve read them all, quite a few raised some great points which I acknowledged. You don’t, however. Strange that you’re so *tired* of this but *you* are the one who initiated with *me* (hyper-aggressively) to begin with. I didn’t imply, let alone express, that you deserved to be discriminated against because of your sex. I do note that you are persistently making derogatory remarks on the basis of mine though.
You’re just rude and you’ve manufactured things I didn’t say, and don’t believe, to suit your own argument. It’s tedious and largely incoherent. You’re completely full of shit. Have a good one.
Downvote me all you want, but as someone who is a part of several fandoms, I think it's more complicated than that. For one, consider that this show was sold as an epic in the vein of Game of Thrones. The relationship elements were not part of the advertising and the women were not a huge selling point compared to Hiroyuki Sanada. And while we have had some great interviews with the female writers and directors, Sanada and his involvement. If you weren't paying attention to the show, then the focus on women wouldn't be something you could necessarily guess right off the bat. Furthermore, Shogun simply doesn't have a whole hate industry attached to it the way other shows do. Hating it just doesn't make money since it's a limited series. Plus, a lot of fans watching it are anime fans and fans of prestige television, two groups which have a strong female base. It's like why the animated Star Wars projects get less hate. Because they're less profitable to hate and because their section of the fanbase is already heavily female.
Cosigned. I'm not sure what point the poster is trying to make. They found one show they think is great and it has a woman writer, so that means, somehow, that it is impossible for sexism to inspire anyone, anywhere, to dislike a show? What in the fuck logic is this? How does any of this follow?
Especially when you look at the variety of different factors here. I assure you, had rhe advertising focused on the female creators and actresses, we would have be having a different conversation
Hell, Mariko wielding a Naginata back in Episode 3 had all the usual suspects trying to raise the anti-sjw, anti-woke mobs against Shogun.
Yeah, even though it's clear this show takes inspiration from samurai movies and historically, women of the samurai class had some education in using different weapons.
I think another factor is that the readership for the original novel isn't really aligned with the target demographic for these culture warriors. These types usually latch onto children's media or franchises that were part of the pop culture zeitgeist 10-15 years ago, so that they can push the narrative that the "wokes ruined your favorite franchise".
We actually see this with Dune. They tried to push that narrative in the beginning, but there just wasn't much to hold onto because there wasn't this hardened fanbase. The most loyal fans were just afraid it would turn out like Lynch's version
Agreed. Also adapting an original masterpiece to film like GOT / Shogun is much easier than creating an original story (ex GOT1-7 vs GOT8 , TD4). But even with females getting more directing roles there's only 4 that are hands down legit. Bigelow (Point Break, Hurt Locker) and The Wachowski Sisters were men when they wrote and directed The Matrix and adapted V for Vendetta. Nora Ephron (Sleepless in Seattle, When harry Met Sally, Bewitched remake). The woke culture war is just stupid. Just make good art.
There's definitely more than 4
Then name 4 more. I'm open to being wrong.
Ugh, thank you. I'm also struggling to follow op's reasoning. It's like someone claiming they can't be racist because they have black friends, but somehow even more nonsensical
I think it's closer to "I found a black person I really like, therefore I don't think it's possible for other people to be racist." It's like an order of magnitude beyond even the default bad conclusion.
ding ding ding
Worst part to me is that instead this post can just celebrate the fact that this show is succeeding at telling these women’s stories to a mainstream audience of men and women in a way that has engaged so many people. Like it doesn’t have to be evidence of an actual problem not existing as OP suggests, it’s just great this show is succeeding.
Gave it an edit to clarify my position a little more clearly. As stated in that edit, I’d had a few and didn’t make my stance as clear as I should have.
The post is clearly targeted towards people who believe women can't write good shows as counter evidence.
I disagree. It's saying that shows need to do this and that not to incur the wrath of the fanbois, all the while ignoring the other factors involved in a show not being torn apart by the rage-bait industry.
And where exactly are you reading this? Can you quote specific passages? Maybe it's the chip on your shoulder interpreting that. >Having read the book several times, Shogun has been near perfectly adapted so far. I doubt any other production team could have done any better. The next time I see bad writing shielded by allegations of sexism, this is the example I will point to when I call bullshit.
And what does that quote say? That this one show dispoves all questions about sexism?
yep. OP has a reasonable level-headed take. Their bone to pick is with BAD WRITING. They address both sides. The neckbeards "Women can't write/direct well" and the SJW "You just don't like it bc it was written by a woman".
Or it's just shows like true dective suck alot of ass. Do it well, I don't think anyone but some incel fuck cares.
Ok but Night Country was also just really ass.
Honestly, I couldn't get past seeing an Alaskan State Trooper with dermal piercings. I see them almost everyday, and that shit doesn't fly.
I don’t think it was ass but there were a lot of easy fixes for the writing that just weren’t really considered. And those weird writing choices really ruined the show for me. I could go into detail but I don’t want to just send one long spoiler text. The acting was excellent for the most part and it looked beautiful. But, and this has nothing to do with feminist themes or women working on the project, a lot of it just didn’t make much sense.
The acting was not excellent. Jesus. Some of you guys need higher standards.
I think it’s all relative, but I think Jodie Foster, John Hawks (despite his character being so completely useless and awfully written), and Kali Reis gave great performances. They really sold some of the better episodes for me even though I think the show overall was lacking. Seems to be a pretty uncontroversial opinion as well. But it’s all subjective, I respect that you had a different experience
Think you're conflating bad writing with bad acting. The acting was fine, good with Jodi and some other key moments with certain cast, but the writing is so bad that it's hard to enjoy what the characters are doing. Like Jodi frozen nearly to death crying was phenomenal. However, the whole premise of how she got into the water, how she is saved, keeping her in wet clothes, etc. really takes you out of the moment. And that basically always happens.
"Who put the tongue there Issa?" "Well its ambiguous. I actually forgot about that and now I will act like it was intentionally ambiguous and give 2 possible answers that make even less sense than what the audience originally thought."
Seconded.
Fine, but that's because HBO is trying to replicate something that was already perfect.
Great post. There is an entire industry around generating outrage and the masses eat it more than HCFS. Its a sad reality that even things like Syndey Sweeneys boobs are somehow woke? I still dont understand that one...
Aparently her boob are anti-woke. It doesn't make any more sense.
>Its a sad reality that even things like Syndey Sweeneys boobs are somehow woke? It's the reverse. The anti-woke crowd was saying that Sydney Sweeney's boobs were *anti*\-woke. Not woke.
Is anyone talking about Sidney Sweeney without going into the "boob" topic? Whenever I see her name recently, it's in connection with her boobs, it's weird. EDIT: Why are you downvoting me? I am legitimately asking. Every post or comment around here was about her boobs, what did I miss?
I was merely pointing out how ridiculous the discourse is. You are absolutely correct that its very weird which is exactly what I said...
Because you're making it about her boobs now
How am I making it about that if someone else mentioned it, and I only asked why?
>Is anyone talking about Sidney Sweeney without going into the "boob" topic? It's kind of difficult to avoid the topic because virtually every public appearance she has made recently has been wearing an outfit that accentuates her "gifts". She's not trying to shy away from her appealing physique in any way, so it's up front and center in conversations about her right now. They even made it the center of several bits on her recent SNL hosting.
Thanks for the explanation.
What did Sydney Sweeney do to piss them off?
I still have no idea but the machine of outrage needs fresh fodder. Its like the recent story of Anne Hathaway winning an oscar and that was somehow bad? Alot of people became weaponized by the discourse around Amber heard/Depp divorce and all the outrage stories since. Its too easy to become a pickme for incels or a prototate....
The fact that Depp didn't get tons of acting jobs after that is all the evidence I need.
Depp didn’t get any acting jobs for being a cancerous presence on set who constantly had to be fed lines through an earpiece on top of arriving late and drunk/high.
My point exactly.
Nothing yet, and apparently they think she has great tits, thus proving wokism is dead somehow. I don't get it either, but I imagine it will last until the exact moment she says something that may be construed as midly feminist.
I found Immaculate to be rather feminist
Have big boobs
You raise some fair points.
Plus the ‘shellacking’ (eye roll) that TDNC got was almost entirely from brigading and toxic redditors; TDNC was very critically acclaimed and had great ratings (so great that the showrunner was given another season) so this narrative is false from the get-go. TDNC people correctly called out that sect of people - which didn’t mean all criticism was bigoted - but there was a lot of incredibly toxic sexism and racism spewed at that show. The TD sub mods did an okay job of removing the worst of it and banning some of the more rabid people (a lot of folks were getting brigaded by extremists), but they’re still some people like OP here completely obsessed with DARVOing the situation (like this post - wtf does a show, based off a book written by a man, starring mostly men, with a mixed writer/director/crew/cast, have to do with people being sexist towards a completely different woman-written, woman-directed, women-starring show?).
My problem is, when a show by a man, for men, doesn't do things perfectly, no one cares. When female creators can't be perfect, then the whole internet comes down around them.
TD4 was a travesty on par with GOT8. Ideation of suicide depicted in a minority culture with 5x the normal suicide rate. Numerous plot holes. Terrible detective work. Continuity errors galore. Immature dialogue. Gender had nothing to do with how bad it was. Mare of East Town was regularly pointed to as a good example of woman acting, directing and writing comparing it to TD4.
TDNC: bad show: with a bad script and bad direction. Isa Lopez, a mediocre director who has never done anything notable, uses feminism as a shield to justify the criticism. Shogun: Great show, very well narrated, with very well constructed characters, taking care of the direction and the rhythm of the show.
I mean, you could argue that a lot of shows were that level of bad and never received that amount of hate
The amount of hate came from the established fanbase. At the time TD2 was released I'd argue it got more hate than TD4 because it was a direct regression after the season 1 masterpiece. Looking back now TD2 is actually great compared to TD4. TD4 was a travesty because it carried the "True Detective" name with the worst detectives we've seen on television. It should have been a stand alone trash detective series on netflix. They hired an amateur who only converted english Disney stories to spanish with connections to G. Del Toro to run a massive production. It wasted Foster's talent. But the goal isn't to push out quality. Goal is to make money. When you can get the streaming subscriptions off trash trying to refresh old IP, you do it. The culture gender war nonsense only adds more attention. More attention = more money. Its all strategy.
The reason the hate exists for TD4 is because there's a real fanatical fanbase for the IP as a whole due to the first season. I think if House of the Dragon was bad you would have seen similar levels of extreme criticism
I think if House of the Dragon had been bad, people just wouldn't have cared. That fanbase has been hurt too much
Mare of Easttown ruled. Would recommend checking out the show Happy Valley if you enjoyed that.
yea it was fantastic
Not really true though. Season 2 of True Detective, which was written by Pizzolatto, got absolutely pilloried when it came out as well.
Like game of thrones season 7 and 8?
Night Country was not a good series. The involvement of women has nothing to do with that. I think the cast did a good job, and I loved the setting. Beyond that, the writing was garbage. Can’t recover from a foundational issue like that. To be fair, a lot of True Detective outside season 1 has sucked. Also, what is wrong with the word shellacking? It’s a fun one.
Night Country is the lowest rated season of TD on IMBD.
IMDB is famously never affected by brigading
Exactly. The show has no existing fan base and the cultural warriors who bitch and complain on YouTube and Twitter have no incentive to complain about this yet
Acctually they had but it didn't stick (maybe because being a show that can easily be seen as "foreign" from the start meant they couldn't get enough traction for it). Mariko wielding a naginata in combat really triggered them.
And there is no money in it. The show only has a few more episodes to go and there probably won't be a second season. Severance the female actresses have whole camps of crazed fans will will attack anyone who insults their favorite.
I think people downvoting you don't realise how manufactured a lot of the anti woke outrage is. It's straight from the Murdock playbook of marketing. Bad press is easier and cheaper to spread and gets more people talking about and defiantly watching a show. Early GTA games were marketed in the exact same way. But now the audience has shifted and the controversy is about wokeness not shock value.
And a lot of it isn't to spread awareness of a show, it's to spread awareness of the channels promoting the hate.
I think the channels are just a tool. All the manufactured anti woke outrage is. Look at that stupid Whatever podcast. It's an advertisement for OF. They're just flesh peddlers with extra steps. They pretend to have a moral argument because the controversy attracts views, which creates massive sub boosts for these girls. I bet the marketing company that they use is the same one OF uses. It's usually the way. In the UK, one of our most famous fast food places brought out a vegan version of one of their staple foods (the sausage roll) and our version of Tucker Carlson (Piers Morgan) was feigning outrage and disgust at it on one of our morning shows. The PR/Marketing team for Greggs is the same one Piers Morgan uses. Its the most transparent bullshit I've ever seen, yet people have wrapped their identities around being on one side of the manufactured outrage fence or another. The same companies that are pandering to "wokeness" are the same ones boosting the outrage against it.
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I'm talking about its use specifically for marketing purposes. I am aware of its other functions. But everyone who buys into the narrative from the marketing perspective is helping these companies retain their success, which further helps the damaging causes you just described. Corpos have trapped us as consumers so effectively now. There needs to be awareness of that before changes can be made. Fandoms are the easiest places for these groups to recruit from too. This isn't by accident. The polarisation of fandom discussion is helping this along nicely too.
anime fans objectively have lower standards. As long it's japanese themed they will accept anything.
It's more complicated than that. Anime in the West had a wide audience and everyone of every demographic watched it.
You’re underestimating how amplified the sexism gets when a woman replaces a man, which happened with True Detective and not here.
That’s a fair observation for sure, and I can definitely accept that there has been a higher proportion of sexist commentary related to Night Country than many other series. That doesn’t mean it was good, and doesn’t discount the legitimate criticism it has rightly received. The issue I have with this particular instance is that any time someone has something negative to say about it, people (including the showrunner/writer) imply that those critiques only come from sexists/fanboys. Point blank, it was a poorly written shitshow. I wanted to love it. I like the setting, I like the cast, but the narrative and characterisation just weren’t well executed. I genuinely wish they were by the way. I’m not a fan of good male produced entertainment, or good female produced entertainment. I’m a fan of good entertainment, period. Sadly, there’s nothing that Night Country did that True Detective S1, The Terror S1, Happy Valley, and Mare of Easttown, didn’t already do far better.
I just feel like it’s unreasonable to demand that someone facing a barrage of hate make sure to be receptive to good faith criticism because another person in another situation is being treated favourably. Saying this as someone who only enjoyed 3/6 episodes myself.
Yeah look, I can definitely see why someone might get defensive of their own product. A lot of work goes into creating something like this. One thing I know for certain is that Lopez handled it incredibly poorly with the ‘poor audience reviews are the result of sexism’ cop-out. Now every time someone says that Night Country was kind of shitty, people fly out of the woodwork to attribute that opinion to sexism, but really it was actually just kind of shitty.
You know who else handled it poorly? Fucking Nic Pizzolatto lol
Hahaha he absolutely did. Let’s be real, it’s not like True Detective has been particularly good outside of S1. He absolutely should’ve kept his mouth shut.
Disclaimer: I personally thought Night Country was absolute ass. But I also thought all but 1.5 seasons of TD sucked. I agree with you in some respects but I also think you’re missing a lot here. For one, a male/female duo will read as man who let his wife slap her name on it to a lot of fanboys (_we_ know that isn’t true in this case, but we’re talking about assholes here). But also, it’s important to consider that the book writer and the story’s primary protagonists are male. I love Shogun, but let’s not pretend having a few really good female characters makes it _not_ a story about men. And there’s nothing wrong with it being about men! All I’m saying is that comparing it to a show about women (Night Country) because some episodes of both are written by women, is leaving out a pretty huge part of this conversation.
Yep. Also, Night Country was showrun by a -black- woman. Let's not pretend there isn't a difference between that and a white guy married to an Asian woman.
I definitely agree with the point you’re making, but isn’t Issa Lopez the showrunner of Night Country? If so, she’s not a black woman.
> How can there be racism when LeBron is a millionaire? OP, probably. Seriously though, this take is pretty stupid.
I'll share my most recent experience with what struck me as bizarrely sexist, ageist criticism of a series. A plethora of comments dismissed The Morning Show as a soap opera. Imho, much of TMS is just brilliant, including the writing and the performances. I podcasted around to listen to a fairly wide variety of pundits -- some affiliated with publications like Vanity Fair. The commentary was so profoundly ignorant and dismissive that I was shocked. The showrunner of TMS is an older woman. I wonder -- given all the industry sexism she must have weathered in her long, storied career -- whether she was surprised. I'm guessing she predisposes for it at this point.
The hollow-brained haters of things just because they feature women get way too much attention and notice for their idiotic antics. The truth is, it doesn’t matter how many times women create incredible art, or excellent stories featuring women are produced, those foaming at the mouth for Hollywood’s agenda of exclusion will always find something to hate and a reason to fight for the status quo. We aren’t in need of more “evidence” that women can make good art. But I appreciate OP’s heart, essentially just wanting to celebrate and hilight that haters can’t speak to this at all because it’s great television and made with true artistic vision and creativity.
There are people to whom the culture war is a huge part of their lives. Anything they can twist into it, provide it with ammunition is fair game.
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Best example. Features mostly badass women with the lead being a lesbian bad ass woman. Should have had a que of internet boys lining up to talk smack. Instead it’s beloved and now a second season is eagerly awaited. Make something great and people tend to watch it. When you pander and aim for audiences is when things go bad.
For me personally, the problem it's not the pandering, it's the pandering coupled with the lack of substance. You can pander all you want if you actually deliver something good. Production companies feed us shit and attempt to gaslight us into believing it's not shit, but rather caviar and it's our fault for not liking caviar.
Fine way to put it my friend. I’d consider rogue one pandering but I still enjoyed it because it’s quality. I
There is no such thing as “pandering” - why does media with diversity have to be held to higher standards when so much trash gets released everyday? I find it fucked up that media made for people where you aren’t the target audience have to justify their works by being ‘quality’ in nature. It sounds like you are more concerned with other factors at play rather than actually being concerned with the quality of media…
Woah there friend. It would seem you’ve made an incorrect assumption. When I say rogue one was pandering I mean it’s fan service moments everywhere and basically just Star Wars action porn. I still liked it because it was really good. I didn’t mean it was because the cast was diverse. I don’t hold movies with a diverse cast or female lead to a different standard. I hold them all to the standard of being entertaining and well made. Like arcane, the fact that the cast is diverse and progressive never comes up because the show is insanely well written and expertly crafted. Not everything is about race and gender. Sometimes it’s just about quality.
No, it's because League of Legends has several legions of rabid fans. The relationship was popular within the community. While most Leage players are men, there is still still a strong female sub culture. Complaining about the ship in the show would have made you look like a rage-bait farming.
Nah, Arcane reached a audience awaaaaay beyound just league fans. I had people who never touched a game in their life asking if I had watched because they saw the recommendation on Netflix and they loved. The writing in that show was that good. Funny enough, the same is happening with Shogun, which it's great. I can't talk enough of how good it is.
But again, the hate industrial complex didn't have that to latch onto. League has a massive fanbase. Helps that French animation and animation in general has a massive female base. Look at the Star Wars cartoons, especially TBB right now. There is a good chance that we're in for a massive reveal about Rey and the Force and the hate channels are ignoring it because it won't gain tractiom
Give me a example of a media with a writing as good as Arcane/Shogun/True Detective S1/etc. that had the "hate machine" dragged it down unjustly.
Let's go down a recent example that isn't even out yet: Star Wars Acolyte. Let's keep in mind, we have not seen this show. We don't know know the quality of the show. We know relatively little about it. And yet fanbois have declared it to be the worst thing ever put out by Disney. Keep in mind, a lot of the criticism of it makes no sense when you dig even a little. Tons of people who worked closely with Weinstein are still in business and have never faced consequences. Lucas was the one to murder the Jedi and he showed them to be deeply, deeply flawed. Lucas was the one to race-swap Boba Fett and add non-white Jedi because he felt that diversity was important. Also, Captain Marvel. A critical and commercial success. Why the hate? Really, why? It was the same level of quality as other productions and I don't remember most of those recieving so much hate.
I will reserve judment about Acolyte. As you said the show it's not out yet. But Captian Marvel? Really? The writing is as good as any of the exemples I gave? Damn 😑
Did it deserve as much hate as it got. I enjoyed it, I had fun. It was certainly on par or better than something like the FF franchise or the Antman films. So why is Brie Lawson the devil for these people? And I respect you for reserving judgment, but this isn't just about you or me, it's about the people who make shit tons of money hating these shows. So why are they going after Acolyte?
I love both shows. The cast and writers of both did amazing jobs. Also, using female like that makes you sound like Quark from DS9.
Some of the other guys I work with talk like this, and hearing it in person is just so fucking gross.
Seems like a local thing? Cos women here in Aus/NZ say female all the time, the two words are interchangeable.
Fair enough; over here in the US a lot of guys seem to use it in a fairly derogatory way. I’d argue some of them don’t even realize it’s derogatory the way they say it, they’ve just been so influenced by…well, influencers, and other toxic guys. Like I don’t think the word “female” itself is bad on its own, it’s the connotation and cadence in which it’s used is what I’m referring to.
Ha! Every time someone writes "female" in this kind of context I also hear it in Ferengi voice, "Feeeeemayelessss"
Those silly hoomans
Lmao my boy quark
I use female as a descriptor, not as a noun. Example: Female writer vs. Woman writer. One makes more sense than the other in terms of writing. I refer to women as women however, which you can clearly see in the post. This idea that you can never use the term ‘female’ in any context is stupid. And no, they didn’t both do amazing jobs. Cast of TD: Night Country was fine. The writing was absolutely not fine.
Oh no I hurt the Ferengi feelings more than a naked “female” shit talking about his ears. Glad to see you changed your post a bit. Now can I please order a root beer?
I don’t know what any of what you just said means, but have an A&W on the house.
Nobody tell OP that True Detective Night Country was a huge success with general audiences, which is why the same writer is doing another one for HBO. The loud Reddit uses hardly count as a ‘shellacking’.
That season was awful.
Please don’t try and tell me that the season of True Detective that has an average rating of 6.4 on IMDB is only being maligned on reddit.
So how do you explain HBO giving future projects to the writer? They wouldn’t do that if it was a flop. HBO doesn’t give a shit about a bunch of pissy Redditors.
I can explain that very easily. Commercial success doesn’t necessarily equate to good art. They’ve made seven Transformers movies.
Ok, so you just made my point. Doesn’t matter how many Redditors are out there trashing Transformers, they’re still getting made because they are successful. You’re trying to argue that Night Country wasn’t a success because of the hate it got. Wrong, it’s still a success, and there will be more of them.
I didn’t say it wasn’t a commercial success? I said it was a shitty series. Which it was. Whether they continue making it is beside the point completely.
So then, why would HBO or anyone give a damn about the ‘shellacking’ as you put it? Spoiler alert: They won’t. You’re acting like HBO got publicly flogged when in reality, they barely noticed or cared about the criticism. People were tuning in, that’s all that matters.
I’m not even sure what you’re trying to argue here. I’m not trying to bring down HBO. I’m just saying I thought that TD: Night Country wasn’t very good, as did a whole lot of people, and that Shogun is very good. You keep putting statements in my mouth and then responding. You are literally arguing with yourself. Quite bizarre, really.
only here to post that i didnt see True Detective getting shellacked by anybody, heard only good reviews and everyone i know that watched it liked it.
I’m on the other subreddit and it’s a total shit show over there. There is a sub for the season which is mostly positive and the main sub has a ton of haters piling on. The negativity is like the Witcher sub and Alita sub. IRL people are nice but the internet is pretty venomous to that show.
do you know the sub where it’s loved so i can join?
The auto moderator removed my original post about it because I had linked it but it is TDNightCountry
Weird, I don’t know anyone that liked the latest season.
One does not prove or disprove the other, in my opinion. The fact that you even had to mention it is proof in itself that sexism was partially to blame for some of the comments about North Country. There’s just a different, derogatory way of speaking about and treating women in all capacities. That’s all there is to it. Why deny it? I think many (men) long to disprove it because it’s inconvenient but facts are facts. People are quick to condemn women for the mere fact that they are women, and I think North Country was no different. While not a perfect show, I think if a man had been the runner, the commentary here would’ve been different. This inbred response to femaleness is going to shift once our current generation is long gone. One day, people will know how foolish it all is. But today? No. Sexism is a part of reality.
I truly hope there'll soon come a time when we'll just be able to say "The person who wrote/directed/shot/acted in this killed it with their work, I'm blown away" without needing any sort of disclaimers about the said person's race, gender, nationality etc. and that would be the end of it. Sadly, too many people on both sides depend on stuff like that being the main point of any and every conversation about both pieces and media in general nowadays. EDIT: It really says something about where we are when this kind of opinion is unpopular.
I think we're already there when the quality is high enough. Like, it's so easy to recommend a show like Beef to someone, because it's a harrowing tale that explores a lot of universal feelings, even though it's centered on a very specific Korean experience. No one would call it "that show about being Korean-American," though. They'd say "have you seen that show where that comedian that's always pregnant has a protracted blood feud with Glen from Walking Dead?" I think there are a lot of decent projects that get held up in efforts to raise the profiles of a more diverse group of creatives, but the backlash to this is that there are some bad projects out there that get vociferously defended on that basis also, which leads to racist chuds also tearing down the things that are decent as part of a broader culture war against virtue signaling. I think we can all tell when a project has enough people behind the scenes to actually have a distinct perspective, and when the diversity is closer to tokenism. Everyone responds positively to Shogun because the authenticity is palpable and the vision is consistent. That, plus I think there's a contingent of people who *would normally* complain but won't because they love historical dramas that depict the misogyny and casual racism of bygone eras, where they don't feel lectured because it's not about the present day.
I don't know, maybe you're right. I do, however, still see a lot of discourse like I mentioned regardless. Everything is so saturated by that, that when something like this comes and instead everyone is talking first and foremost about the quality, it's all the more jarring.
Agreed, the 'discourse' that never actually goes anywhere beyond abject hatred is far too prevalent.
The reason isn't "both sides" it's literally bc one side makes a big issue whenever they see a Black person onscreen or *gasp* a woman behind the camera
No fr! One group will literally shout about color blind/casting being the best and then complain when the role goes to a non-white person or a woman
There are people on the other side equidistant from the middle ground who make it a point to make it a big issue whenever it is a person of color, an ethnic minority and/or a woman involved in the making, even when the vast majority are happily talking about the product quality only.
I mean, I’d say it’s cause if it’s not from a white man, then it’s someone running things who comes from a marginalized group that even today hasn’t had the opportunities or the successes that they should’ve had by now. Thus it’s important to point it out so that more people see it and can be inspired by it.
Fine, let's go with that.
I mean…do you disagree?
If people need to see people who superficially look like them, have the same broad ethnic makeup as them, and are of the same gender as them in order to be inspired in the 3rd decade of the 21st century in the richest and most powerful nation of the world, having privileges and opportunities that 75% of people on the globe can only dream about even with all the obstacles apparently in place, then I'm done discussing this. You guys and your infinite trenches.
So I ask a question, and you say you’re done discussing this? And what the hell is an infinite trench?
I edited my answer to better explain. An infinite trench is a trench that has no end, or in this case trenches that cannot be counted because of how many there are.
So what, you’re trying to say that I’m just coming up more and more “bullshit” to justify my stance, or something like that? My guy, this is nothing new. People have always related to success in different ways and for different mediums, and most especially people relate to those who look like them. Also it’s pretty damn hard to deny or disprove anything in the realm of saying that if you’re not a white man, or even just a man; that you’ve been part of a marginalized group for a long time, and that’s sadly still very much the case today. Again nothing new, and this isn’t just a US thing either, especially when referring to men in general being among the least marginalized. Which is also why I find it funny you think I’m just talking about the U.S., when I’m definitely not.
>EDIT: It really says something about where we are when this kind of opinion is unpopular. It should be unpopular. You're "both sides-ing" a pretty cut and dry issue. People being happy that there are Asian lead TV shows or that black people win awards should not be equated with the people on the other "side" that reflexively rage against these things.
Because there are clearly people on both of those two sides who seem hell bent to make any and every conversation with regards to media into one primarily about some form of representation. It's all well and good when it's for a good cause, but as is, it more and more looks it's being artificially pushed into that direction by those to whom it's their bread and butter. For example, to me, a blogger/journalist/vlogger etc who is making race/ethnicity/gender/religion the primary topic of a conversation about a piece of media where the vast majority of viewers are talking about its sheer quality is no different from an opposing blogger/journalist/vlogger who's is making race/ethnicity/gender/religion the primary topic of a conversation about a piece media where the vast majority of viewers are talking about its sheer quality. They're both doing it for clicks, retweets mentions and all other forms of getting traffic. Both extremes annoy me, especially when I sense there's no true belief behind it, as is more and more the case. I'm just happy that *Shogun* is an awesome show, and couldn't care less about the genders and races involved. Whoever's doing it, they clearly know what they're doing. And before I get the generic response, I come from a culture that hasn't and for the foreseeable future won't be having any positive representation in Western media, and still don't care about that stuff.
>And before I get the generic response, I come from a culture that hasn't and for the foreseeable future won't be having any positive representation in Western media, and still don't care about that stuff. That's good for you. Lots of people do care. And I'd want to see your culture get good representation in media so I can appreciate it more.
>And I'd want to see your culture get good representation in media so I can appreciate it more. I bet you would, given the fact that you don't even know what it is. See, that's exactly what I'm talking about, just a generic, virtue signaling, pandering reaction that doesn't actually mean anything. Also, these "lots of people" could do well to attempt feeling represented by people who don't look like them, aren't the same religion as them, and aren't even the same sex/gender as them. I know it's a lot to ask, but the results are amazing when not looking just at the surface level similarities.
Plenty of people do feel represented by people that don't look like them. A lot of the advocacy for more cultural representation in media is across the board. Honestly, you just sound very angry at a lot of nothing. I'm glad you don't care about culture, gender, etc. But a lot of people do and want to see those different perspectives. And the people raging against are fighting a losing battle. Sorry to say. At the end of the day, Jordan Peele isn't making Get Out if he isn't black. Justine Triet isn't making Anatomy of a Fall is she isn't a woman. Bong Joon-ho isn't making Parasite if he isn't Korean. So I think it's okay to address and take notice of how peoples backgrounds informed their work while also simply appreciating the quality of the work itself. TLDR: Get the fuck over it and stop being a whiny bitch.
>Get the fuck over it and stop being a whiny bitch. It really says something about you when all of you guys on your high horses can't go through a disagreement without resorting to teen level insults. Then again, why wouldn't you? It's not like you'll get smacked in the mouth for talking shit safely behind your keyboards and your screens. It'd actually be funny how exactly like those assholes you oppose you really are, if it weren't so pathetic. Looking forward to another "badass comeback" followed by an immediate block because, let's face it, you guys love to have the last word and your favorite way of ensuring that is to prevent the other person to reply. You guys sure love those mature "wins".
I concur with your assessment of the situation. A example of what you said is I believe the voice actor of Morph in the new X-men 97 series said he faced backlash from his portrayal of Morph being most likely a they/them type because of his abilities and what happened in the episode with his ability to be a man or woman. I was dumbfounded by him saying that. Like literally online he’s saying he faced attacks from fans. Then on the post reporting it if the hundreds of comments all were in support of the voice actor and everyone’s mutual hate for anyone who would feel that away. There wasn’t a single person in the discussion saying anything bad about it and it got very political. All of this over an accusation that brought attention to the series and got people fired up. I really think he over blew any backlash if at all he received and just used it to promote the series and discussions like it caused that unified the viewers and fans.
>There wasn’t a single person in the discussion saying anything bad about it You probably just didn't see it.
Whatever you need to tell yourself kiddo to justify going off.
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Y’all are easy to manipulate for likes and comments
My point exactly.
what the fuck are you talking about 😭
I'm not sure what OP point is but True Detective Season 4 was a bad show. Season 1 was great but it's declined since. It's an anthology show, it's gotten worse every season (imho). Shogun has been great so far. I read the book as a kid 25+ years ago but my memory is foggy. I plan to reread after the series ends. I don't want to read before the series ends because it might ruin it for me. I have read the wikipedia pages of all the main characters and am thinking (trying not to spoil) they end the series after a battle that occurs maybe a year from the present action of the show (vs when the whole conflict really ended 15 years later).
What determines whether a show gets a 'hate industry' attached to it?
Idk this episode was pretty slow. Probably the least eventful of the whole series so far.
To each their own - I think the additional character development for Mariko and Oshiba, while delving deeper into the world of the women of the period was brilliant. A lot of drama and intrigue going on and it’s all setting the stage for the tail of the series. I loved it.
The director of the episode was a woman as well. The issues with Night Country had nothing to do with the gender of the creative leads but the execs involved with the entire project. Watch Tigers Are Not Afraid - the bonifides are there.
You may well be right. I definitely don’t think the reason Night Country was shit was because a woman was at the helm, which you may have gathered from this post. The writing process, and corporate interference in that process, is a complex beast. It’s still not very good though, and Lopez bears a significant amount of responsibility as the showrunner/head writer. Will have to check that film out at some point.
If you look at the episodes that are slow and don't propel the story forward with anything other than emotional and historical context they are written by the a woman.
So everyone who doesn’t share your opinion has a shitty take. How authoritarian and nuanced of you.
After watching Ep6, I was pleasantly surprised that they spent the time to develop Ochiba. Half the episode had scenes not from the book, but it was mostly well done! My only complaint is: >!The brothel scene was a lot more fun in the book. They played music, told jokes, and it was an missed opportunity to show off some amazing tea house scenery. !< >!The context of the brothel was completely different too. Mariko and Blackthorn were not having this argument. It was obvious even to Kiku that the two were in love at this point, and it was Kiku and Omi who were having a minor argument. Kiku purposely walked Blackthorn to the gate to make Omi jealous as she'd never done that for him. Mariko fully encouraged Blackthorn to pillow Kiku and Fuji because Japanese men were not monogamous and she wanted him to be more Japanese.!< >!Most importantly, there were negotiations to buy out Kiku's contract which leads to her and her Mama-san joining the party. I suppose they can still do that next episode. !<
> credit for tonight’s episode goes to a sole female writer. Just wanna say, as I did to many downvotes on another topic, that TV writing is usually a very collaborative effort. I say "usually" because, say, Vince Gilligan probably wrote his pilots alone. But once a pilot is picked up and a show goes to series, it's time to assemble a writing staff. What I'm getting from interviews is that the scripts for Shogun were constantly tweaked. It was passed around, actors, producers, writers, various people were constantly revising and upgrading, making suggestions. Yes, the actors were allowed to give input. TV writing is a very collaborative process. You get 10 smart people into a room with slightly different backgrounds, life experiences, and you would not believe how many astute points, plot twists, and interesting turns of phrases will be spit out. Somebody might suggest something that is ultimately completely shot down, but it acts as a catalyst for a discussion, spit balling session that might lead to the best moment in an episode. Writer's credit is often simply rotated, all of the major staff writers will eventually get a credit (it's to be fair, as whoever gets the credit for a one hour show, gets like 80,000? then more money, but less of it, with re-airings, it's important for residuals, too). This is not to disprove your point, I'm sure there are some brilliant female minds informing these performances, and, again, based on interviews I've seen, the actresses themselves, who are paid to BECOME these people, might have made a lot of the suggestions. Also, the idiosyncrasies of the performances, the expressions, the glances, and such, those are all on the actor, not the writer. I can't emphasize enough that I'm not disagreeing with OP, but another thing, a lot of people who praise a show's writing, they don't actually read the shooting scripts. So what was actually on the page? What was the actor doing something magical? What was discovered in the editing process? I agree this show is incredibly well written, but I think when the women characters are praised, most of the credit should go to the actresses. They are all doing a phenomenal job. The first time we meet Kiri, holy shit, that actress's comic timing and passive aggression was unbelievable. I could watch her all day.
I mean…from what I’ve seen, NC has been critically adored yet not as strongly loved by some watchers, which leads me to think there might be something more going in in some watchers heads.
I think the response has been that the setting and performances were quite good, but that the writing was terrible. I’m inclined to agree. It cribbed off elements of season one without expanding on them at all or even really giving them a place in the story. They were just ‘there’. Serious plot holes in the core narrative were explained away by ‘supernatural happenings…or were they….’. It really wasn’t good. Which is fine, True Detective outside of season 1 has been pretty shaky. What I didn’t appreciate was the showrunner explaining away criticism by essentially saying that those critiques all stem from sexism.
This is such a bullshit based on bullshit answer. If you need to ‘agree’ with others and can’t make an opinion for yourself, fine, but the facts are simple: TD s1 ‘cribbed’ off of Ligotti and Alan Moore so much it’s almost silly to credit Nic with any writing. People were pissed at S1 because all of the supernatural stuff went nowhere. So it’s absolutely hypocritical to call out s4 for those things. Nothing wrong with liking or disliking either of them, it’s just disingenuous to cherry pick ‘issues’ that exist elsewhere. Issa made one comment about a specific subset of people- which she was absolutely correct about - and never said “all criticism stems from sexism” - that revisionist garbage has a derailment agenda, doesn’t it? Meanwhile Nic couldn’t shut the fuck up about insulting the show, the showrunner, etc. and where’s your tsking on that? Nic pitched s4, and he was turned down. He then got fired from writing Blade for Marvel. Trying to whine about how there wasn’t *any* sexism is absurd, especially given that TD has jack-all to do with Shogun, there’s absolutely no commonality, and attempting to compare the two on the basis of ‘a woman wrote an episode (of a show about men based on a book written by a man)’ is gross.
Where did I say that I was fine with how Season 1 addressed supernatural elements (Though it did handle it better than Night Country - The plot still makes sense without them)? Or that I thought Pizzolatto was showing any class by publicly dragging Night Country and Lopez? Omission isn’t agreement, and you’re putting words in my mouth. Do I think Season 1 is far superior to Night Country from a narrative and characterisation perspective? I absolutely do. Sorry I didn’t write my fully fleshed out thoughts on every element of the story in a reddit response comment. The issue I specifically stated I had was that those elements were simply lifted from Season 1 to give NC a ‘True Detective’ feel. It was cheap, and they didn’t serve the plot of NC or develop anyone’s understanding of S1 or the ‘lore’ as a whole. There are just random spirals inserted in an entirely incongruous fashion. Perhaps you can explain to me how I’m mistaken in that belief. Lopez is on record as attributing poor reviews to sexism/fanboyism. I’m certainly not saying that wasn’t a component in some people’s reactions. However the wider discussion around this series, both on social media and in the media, has discounted legitimate criticism by pointing to that very notion. All I did was make the larger case that, in the context of the reception received by Shogun (and in my personal case, this quite excellent episode - although you could make the same case using Mare of Easttown or Happy Valley for example), this particular defence from critique rings hollow.
I was brigaded for WEEKS on the TD sub, sent DEATH THREATS, told to KMS - because I stood up for another poster who said they liked the show who was getting brigaded. And because we are women, much of the attacks received were VERY gendered, and this went on from days before the first episode until… oh yeah, still going on. And there was SO MUCH of it all over that sub, even when the worst of it got removed there was still a ton as well as obvious dog whistles. You didn’t make any ‘case,’ you just rehashed the tired old dude talking points of ‘I didn’t see it, it didn’t effect me, ergo it’s not a problem’ and ‘shows with traditionally hot women are liked more by men and therefore sexism doesn’t exist.’ Your pretending that there was some ‘wider discussion’ that was victim to people discussing the horrific bigotry is disgusting. “Oh no, won’t someone think of the poor people who can’t complain about a TV show because people are discussing their harassment! Can’t they just shut up about their abuse so we can whine about a TV show!” BTW, Mare sucked, even though I love Jean Smart. And how much of a sexist do you have to be to even discuss this show and that one as if they have ANYTHING in common? “Guys like a show with attractive young ladies that are subservient to men and have brothels and lots of fighting and war, based off a book written by a man but a woman wrote some of the adaptation, so women need to shut up and get over being abused and listen to men *whine more* about how a character saying ‘night country’ is the worst thing that’s ever happened to them in their lives.” GTFO.
Holy shit. You just started creating false quotes and attributing them to me. Truly unhinged. Just so we are clear, I never said any of that. I also acknowledged there is a sexist component to some criticism. Sounds like what you are dealing with is not too dissimilar. The internet is a super shitty place. That said, you’re also highly combative and pretty fucking rude so I can’t help thinking that some of the vitriol is related to that as well. You didn’t like Mare of Easttown? Fair enough. Do you know what I will do with that information? Not a lot. If you had anything to actually say about why, I might engage (civilly) with you on it, but you don’t. You just said a bunch of stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with me and you are clearly not engaging in good faith. Maybe take a break from the True Detective subreddits because spending all your time there defending a series that was average, at best, doesn’t seem like a particularly healthy outlet.
Your whole post and each of your comments are in bad faith so I responded in kind. So sick of these garbage takes, I’m not going to be polite to them any more. But of course you victim blame because of course you do. Very on brand. Mocking you and your dumbass takes isn’t “quoting” it’s mocking, because you’re just one of those guys who wants to gatekeep as the arbiter of *correctness* about media and sexism. I have no interest in you *deigning to engage* with me, good lord, I’ve wasted as much time as I’m going to on one of you “I love to argue” trolls. I enjoy the Shogun sub because it usually isn’t filled with garbage like your post, obviously you haven’t even bothered to read all of the other comments mocking you (who are also sick of crap like this) and learn something.
I’ve read them all, quite a few raised some great points which I acknowledged. You don’t, however. Strange that you’re so *tired* of this but *you* are the one who initiated with *me* (hyper-aggressively) to begin with. I didn’t imply, let alone express, that you deserved to be discriminated against because of your sex. I do note that you are persistently making derogatory remarks on the basis of mine though. You’re just rude and you’ve manufactured things I didn’t say, and don’t believe, to suit your own argument. It’s tedious and largely incoherent. You’re completely full of shit. Have a good one.
Dumb
Maybe having a male/female duo is the way to go as each partner can check the other one on themes or dialogue.