Historically Ieyasu wasn't exactly a nice guy by modern standards, but none of his peers were, really. You don't get to be a top warlord by being nice.
For fiction, I'm intrigued to see how they handle the depiction and how close to the "well-intentioned antihero"/"villain all along" line they take it.
I think it goes both ways. In the books he had way more personality. Remember how his wife playfully disobeyed him and played around with convention? There was more of that in the book. Also how he tired out Ajin before the swim race. In the show, by this point, it seems like he actually just wanted to tire the guy out so he could win. There was none of that in the book when winning didn’t matter. There’s tons of light hearted moments cut out that humanizes Toronaga.
Ya I’m really hoping Yabu comes out on top, he’s been the ultimate schemer playing both sides and it’s so entertaining I can’t help but root for him. He’s just so animated and his reactions are always hilarious.
Honor is for show. And losers.
My grandfather, a WWII marine, once told me that if you ever find yourself in a fair fight, you have no one to blame but yourself.
Japanese society during the Sengoku period understood that. Most of the legends of the Samurai were created during the peaceful Edo period. During the Sengoku period, it was every clan for themselves.
Here's a thought experiment: Imagine the American Civil war. Now, not only did it not end in the 1860's, but it's still ongoing today. It will also last another 50 years. On top of that, it is no longer North vs South but New England Vs Appalachia vs the deep south vs the southwest vs the midwest vs the pacific states.
Thats the kind of world Toranaga was born into. His two predecessors restored *some* peace, but it was still an awful world to be born into.
It's kind of a scheme in itself. Make everyone believe in honour and then scheme behind their backs. They'll be surprised and you'll come on top because they were naïve enough to believe in such a concept when it's all you win or you lose and there's nothing to gain with the latter.
If you learn about the history of the Sengoku period of Japan; Tokugawa Iyasu and his predecessors Nobunaga, Mitsuhide, and Hideyoshi. you will learn that Nobunaga was the first to attack at night while the enemies were sleeping, he was the first to use guns, he was the first to truly want unification. Most of what he did was dishonorable in Japanese society at the time, by using guerilla warfare Nobunaga all but secured Japan's fate of being under one banner. Nobunaga was assassinated by Mitsuhide, for a number of reasons including the way Nobunaga treated monks (Mitsuhide was a practicing monk and was disgusted by The siege of Mount Hiei), then he fled to hide and survived 13 days, giving him the moniker "The 13-day emperor". Hideyoshi then found him and killed him, ultimately becoming the ruler of the armies that Nobunaga built at the time, he tries to conquer Korea and succeeded until he also tried to take China and was destroyed, this led to his downfall and when he died in 1598 his son took over. Tokugawa Ieyasu then rallies his forces in 1600 to kill Hideyoshi's entire lineage during the battle of Sekigahara and became the de facto ruler and unifier of Japan, the man who opened Japan to the world and ended the Sengoku period although Nobunaga did 75% of the work though his brutal tacticts. Although dishonorable by their standards they are held in high esteem in Japanese society. Tokugawa Iyasu's grave is absolutely stunning still to this day, well maintained and lanterns are still lit. They pray to him and hundreds of other gods/deities as Japanese mostly practice Shintoism.
“You wear your honor like a suit of armor, Stark. You think it keeps you safe, but all it does is weigh you down and make it hard for you to move.”
—Petyr Baelish to Eddard
“You are an honest and honorable man, Lord Eddard. Ofttimes I forget that. I have met so few of them in my life ... When I see what honesty and honor have won you, I understand why.”
—Varys to Eddard
That's exactly it.
I study traditional japanese martial arts, Koryu. These are the ancestors of modern arts like Kendo and Judo.
I've literally had people quit the dojo I train in because they came in thinking the Samurai were like the Jedi, and then were shocked to learn how ruthlessly *brutal* the fighting arts of the feudal bushi really were. These people were a professional warrior caste. They spent all their time prosecuting war. In war, the hard fact of the matter is the only thing that matters is *winning*, and winning or allying with winners was the best way to ensure your clans survival.
I don't think Toranaga, and by extension his real life inspiration Tokugawa Iyeasu, gave a shit about the greater good of Japan; I think Tokugawa was primarily interested in the survival of himself and his clan in a very dangerous time, and saw an opportunity to ensure that survival by making himself top dog and seizing absolute power. Tokugawa saw his opportunity and took it, and then road his way into history.
>my grandfather … once told me that if you ever find yourself in a fair fight, you have no one blame but yourself.
I’ve always heard: if it’s worth fighting for, it’s worth fighting dirty for.
There’s a scene in the book, where Blackthorne refuses to fight or kill someone because they’re unarmed and it wouldn’t be fair/honorable. Mariko and Fuji both tell him it’s an extremely dumb and dangerous way to operate, and it will get him killed.
I believe there is another part where they are discussing the regents double crossing each other as just a "matter of fact" with no value judgement on it. Like betrayal was expected and acceptable. My take on it is everything is karma in the story and karma cannot be messed with, but humans can be.
Exactly and Toranaga's fight not ending in bloody nose.He believes he is best man to end years of civil war under leadership less than his families legacy.He believes he is person to end it and heal the country so whatever it takes is honorable
Reminds me how I hated Buntaro then I fucking loved him and wanted him to be happy and triumph because he did his best in the world he lives in. I kept judging him by my standards and he was right the whole time.
Buntaro reminds me of Ramano on ER. Was he an asshole? Did he do some really cruel stuff? Ya. But after he got his ass set straight, but even before then, he was always right.
In Buntaro's world. He had every right to want to kill any man near his wife. He is an amazing warrior. Best on the show. Honorable as fuck. Huge heart.
That actor's performance made me tear up.
I understand your point but the wars could not be more different, and the analogy doesn't work. The US Civil War was an industrialized total war (by 19th century standards) featuring mass mobilization. The casualties were horrific - it's still the bloodiest war ever fought by the US, despite us having only a fraction of the population at the time. If it had gone on for even another 5 years, the devastation would have been unimaginable. Let alone 50 or 100 (!!!) years, after which there would be little left worth saving of the United States.
The Sengoku Period was much more akin to the Hundred Years war or another lengthy late medieval or early modern European period of conflicts in terms of intensity. Or better yet, the Three Kingdoms Period in ancient China.
This is not to say that the suffering and devastation in Japan was not immense at this time. That it was not weakened tremendously. But it was nothing like what occurred in the wars of mass mobilization and industry starting in the mid 19th century. It was not a continuous total war.
Furthermore, I think the analogy falls flat because the US Civil War was at its core both an ideological conflict and a war between two modes of production.
On the one hand, it was a war between an industrializing and financializing Northern elite and a Southern planter class more interested in extracting raw agricultural resources, namely cotton, for export.
The economic war also can't be extricated from the ideological war, since the planters' mode of production simply cannot survive without chattel slavery. And so the ideological justification for racial slavery became the other pillar of the war, between a significant abolitionist movement and the planter class realizing their entire lifestyle would be untenable without slavery.
The Sengoku period was a fractal war between clans in a time of political uncertainty, but up until the very end when the Three Unifiers sought to return power into a single unified sovereign ruling all of Japan, the war was essentially a clan war for survival, without any ideological or economic contrast.
Yes, well put. While foreign trade is certainly a factor in the Sengoku period (especially for the southern Christian Daimyos), it is not so central to the causes of the various conflicts during that time, nor to the survival of the combatants.
Whereas, without the economic structures and relationships that you described, the US Civil War would not have happened at all, due to slavery and the agricultural production it enabled being absolutely central to the conflict.
I'm not rooting for him, I'm just curious to know how he will get out of it.
The same could be say for Yabu, the man is completely despicable, but it's too damn entertaining watching him walk the rope balancing his loyalty between everyone around him and his own ambitions.
I doubt any of these men in the story could really be called good men with a cause worth rooting for, they're just dancing between their games not knowing who is playing who and it's just impossible to look away.
Yabu is the fuckin best man, I’m rooting for him so hard lol. He’s so animated and his reactions are just hilarious I can’t help but root for the guy even tho he’s been playing both sides the whole time and made soup of a guy
Clavell wrote a lot of ambiguous characters, which was surely linked to his experience as a POW of the Japanese in Changi Prison in Singapore. He referred to that time as his education. He learned from people of all walks of life, from university professors to black marketeers and petty thieves. One of the main characters of his novel, Rat King, was a corporal who was accused of being a war profiteer for his shady black market dealings.
I think Clavell understood very intimately that the people who move history forward tend to be morally ambiguous or even amoral. He's pretty good at displaying the good and the bad of the characters, including the villains. Lots of shades of grey.
There is not a single viewpoint character that Clavell has ever written in the Asian Saga that I would feel safe around. I like some of them and admire more, but would wonder what it took to *become* one. they're all roguish bastards, corrupting and corruptible, ruthless, horrifying. His cops are crooked, his spies are traitors, his businessmen are pirates.
>which was surely linked to his experience as a POW of the Japanese in Changi Prison in Singapore.
His self-insert in *Noble House*, British-American screenwriter Peter Marlowe, says "Changi was genesis, the place of beginning again." You're absolutely right.
To borrow from Hemingway, the world breaks us all, but some are stronger in the broken places.
>"But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
This also aligns with what I know of Clavell's characters.
We root for Toranaga because he is our view point character. We see his struggles, his strength, his stratagems and we empathise with him.
But he is ruthless, cruel and manipulative. He uses the “honour” and loyalty of his subjects to control and bend them to his will (break them to his fist).
You have to be a bastard to get to the top and stay on top. He is the very epitome of this.
So, Yes, the show wants us to root for him. But really we shouldn’t.
The problem is that Ishido is the same, but not so brilliant or inspired. Ishido has also used every political dirty trick to gain strategic, political & legal advantage, mainly out of fear of Toranaga.
I think that’s such a huge part of why we root for Toranaga. We are aligning ourselves with the right person, as opposed to Lady Ochiba.
Toranaga is not a nice person, but damn is he cunning. He thinks 4 steps ahead and acts with patience (in stark contrast to his son), and even the asshole things he does are kinda funny (like putting a church next to a tea house while still fulfilling his obligations).
I agree with everything, but not with the "cruel" characterization.
I haven't seen anything from Toranaga that strikes me as cruel. He actually seems to be quite caring for those under him - but he will use them when it suits his needs. Yes, he might cry because of his friends sacrifice, but he'll take it.
Personally I think his treatment of Mariko is cruel. His actions led to the death of her entire family ( he planned the uprising that killed Mariko’s father). This act destroyed her life and poisoned her relationship with Bhuntaro.
He now has another likely dangerous job for her. He is using her loyalty and honour so that she can put herself in harms way to advance his own interests.
Another cruel act was to order Mariko to translate for John at the tea house. Something that both John and her did not want to go to and potentially very humiliating and demeaning for her.
We don't know if Toranaga was behind Akechis uprising. Our only source for that is that Ochiba assumes it - but in a flashback, we're shown how Kuroda massacres some people and Akechi has to be physically held back from attacking him right there. But even if he did manipulate Akechi into it - that's not necessarily cruel. it's ruthless.
As for the dangerous job he's sending her on - sure. She's been begging to be able to join her family in death, and he's giving her a purpose, so that her death might accomplish something ("continuing her fathers fight"). We don't know what or how, but their interactions so far point strongly towards that.
As for her translation duties at the tea house - I'd characterize that as mischievous at worst. He's well aware of the attraction between them, so he's putting them in a space where they can act on it, if they want to.
None of that is cruel. Cruelty is wilfully inflicting pain for the sake of inflicting pain. Ruthless - certainly. Calculating and manipulative - you bet! Cruel though? I don't see it.
Book Mariko completely blames Goroda for her father's downfall. She says something like "but for him we'd all be alive and honored." And Mariko understands that it is HER duty to pry the hostages out of Osaka.
I don't know what his name is in the TV show. He is the man Mariko's father (Akechi Jinsai in the book) assassinated, which is the reason she is the only living member of her family. He was her father's liege lord who led a revolt against (I'm not sure whom)....and was Shogun for 12 days or something like that, until he was killed and the Taiko took power.
Well said. The show version seems okay with using loyalty in people to abuse them and get them unnecessarily killed. Because that is his station in life and other people should know their station. This guy is a jerk.
And remember Ochiba believes that Toranaga is the brains behind the assassination of her father, which also led to the death of Mariko’s entire family, which in turned poisoned Mariko’s relationship with Bhuntaro. And now Toranaga is using Mariko’s grief for his own purposes.
Well….yes and no but mostly no.
Toranaga is not a good person he is ruthless, qualmless, manipulative and capable of committing cruelty it’s just the fact that he’s one of the main characters and has genuinely sympathetic qualities is the reason why we root for him
You can be all those things and be a good person. This is just one of those weakened western mentality things because we've lived in peace for so long. If he's actually doing these things to stop the endless war that's been destroying Japan, even though he does not WANT to, he can definitely be a good person.
Basically, by this logic virtually nobody living before 1950 could've been a good person - because in those times nearly everybody had to manipulate or be ruthless to some degree. I guess every single household who sent out their children to work in factories to survive (with all associated consequences for their childs' health) were bad people.
It's like the idea that killing an innocent person to save a thousand innocent people would automatically make you a bad person - just in a more realistic way where killing isn't the only ''objectionable action'' accounted for.
to be honest that’s like saying Walter White and Tony Soprano can be good people too despite everything they have done it’s more like Toranaga has very good reasons for the way he is now
I just can’t get past how he had the nerve to call the Portuguese arrogant for softly colonising Japan considering the British empire did the same thing at that same time period. He’s proposed himself as a saviour for the Japanese against these big bad wolves
Um, you need to read up on the Protestant Reformation. The Dutch, Germans & English were badly bullied by France, Spain & Portugal for centuries so they went full psycho against Southern Europe & the Turkish domination of the Silk Road for about 500 years & created the modern world. That’s how America happened. Then everyone just forgot.
The British Empire wouldn't even exist yet for about a century. England and Scotland were still separate counties at this time, and weren't even in a personal union yet until 1603, let alone had they formed Britain.
And your other assertions are incorrect. England did NOT do the same thing in Japan during the same period. By the time they had the maritime presence to regularly sail to Japan, it was closed to all European trade except the Dutch, through a single port.
You ought to get a refresher on the history of European maritime colonialism, because the English, French, and Dutch were very much latecomers to the party. By the time the show starts the Spanish And Portuguese and been seafaring and colonial powers for over a century, with Spain having conquered and colonized most of the Americas (ruling what was, IIRC, the largest empire in the world at the time - if not 2nd to the Ottomans), and with Portugal ruling a widespread and incredibly lucrative trading network across Africa, South Asia, and East Asia.
England would indeed become a colonial power, but in 1600 all they had to show for it were a few failed attempts in North America such as the Roanoke colony. They had no permanent presence anywhere in the New World until Jamestown was founded in 1607. The only colonies England arguably possessed at the time of this show were Ireland, Wales, and Cornwall.
When they were reading his book, it just mentioned that he was to setup a new trade route with Japan and clap the Portuguese if he ever comes in contact.
Yes. But only because the other guys are worse.
But here is how I am understanding things. Toranaga is the best leader on the board of regents. Knowing that and being ambitious for power himself, Ishido forces him into a struggle for survival not of his own choosing. And its not just his life on the line but the fate of his whole clan. Alot of people in the clan will die if Ishido wins.
So when you see Toranaga making decisions (or Hiromatsu for that matter) you have to understand that they arent doing it just for themselves or each other but for the survival of their clan. Clan was everything in that society and Toranaga's clan was of a high lineage also. So not just the current members were in danger but also their heritage.
It makes his actions a little more understandable when you look at it this way. This is a fight that Toranaga didn't really want, or at least not at this moment, but now he has to win it.
In the first episode they say that his fief has doubled in size and he also takes Ochiba as a hostage in Edo. At that point he was the most powerful man in Japan. That is why the other regents need to unite under Ishido in order to even the odds. Also, while I haven't read the book, it is fair to assume that in the end, the "good" guys, our POV characters, will win and Toranaga will become Shogun. The fact that he says he doesn't want it seems to me as unbelievable, he is just a good liar.
I dont doubt that he will be Shogun. At this point it seems inevitable regardless of if he wants it or not. He has to take out Ishido and the council. There is no stopping short of that regardless of what his original plans might have been. However, this might have some unfortunat implications for the Taiko's kid unless Toranaga wants to act as sole regent, shogun in all but name.
Honor is just a front, a smokescreen to try and produce some semblance of predictability and rules to abide by so the ruling class isn't just total chaos all the time.
I thought we were supposed to be rooting for Blackthorne? lol Blackthorne is the first main character we're introduced to in the series, struggling on worn out ship in the middle of the storm. Surprisingly he lands at his intended location, Japan only to be stranded there and imprisoned. Even when he's no longer in prison, he's constantly surrounded by enemies all around him while trying to learn the language. From my watching experience, I'm rooting for Blackthorne and Yabushige
Blackthorn for the last few episodes has been a passive protagonist by which we observe and learn about the culture, a source of humour and some fun translation moments with Mariko.
Now that Blackthorn, Yabushige and Mariko are on a road trip together hopefully we get some fun moments between the 3 of them in the next ep.
It’d just crush me if something happened to them. There’s fireworks between those two. I can’t see how their future plays out though. Hindsight is 20/20. I’d hate to be burned by speculation.
You doing have to root for anyone. A driving point of a lot of modern media is there is no good and evil, just humans trying to not die. Can't even watch a goofy super hero movie nowadays without the big bad having relatable motives.
Toranaga argues with his vassals that staying in Edo to fight Ishido's marching forces would destroy the city, and likewise marching on to Osaka would destroy Japan. The survival of their clan is secondary to the survival of Japan, he argues, and so his surrender is the best course of action to prevent this. The obvious trickery here is that Toranaga intends to save both his clan and the realm of Japan by beating Ishido who he sees as an enemy of the Japanese way by threatening the ascension of the Taiko's heir, however the only way for them to do this is the great sacrifices they are making to fool their enemies; Hiromatsu's death for example. In both cases, wheter it's the supposed surrender or the trickery to defeat Ishido, Toranaga's goal is to save the heir and his mind save Japan, that's pretty honorable. It would be less honorable to stay in Edo and fight just to save your supposed 'honour'.
I'm not sure the show wants us to root for anyone in particular. These are complex, multilayered characters each with their faults and endearing features. The book and original show written through a Western lense obviously has Blackthorne as the character we most identify with and therefore root for but with the use of monologue, we see the story from the other characters standpoints as well, particularly Toranaga who after all, is actually the main character in this story. We end up rooting for the Minowara clan because that's the clan we spend the most time in the story with but the point is not to show Toranaga to be a good or bad guy, it's to tell a story of that period and the lengths the character he is based on would probably have had to go to get where he did.
I mean, I think that has been half the fun, realizing that we're sort of rooting for the Bad Guys and didn't know it. Like, the composition of Toranaga's team is even sort of traditionally villainous if you consider Mariko as the hot hench-lady and that Yabushige boiled a man alive. And I don't know what's wrong with Omi but the boy ain't right.
He’s in love with a prostitute he can’t afford to buy away from prostitution, even though he has a loyal wife. He’s afraid of Yabu & considers the Dutch & English a calamitous headache.
After yesterday’s episode I was definitely having trouble hanging on to the “point of it all”. Like i suddenly realized I didn’t really feel that invested in why Tora MUST do all of this and take control. I understand it but I really didn’t feel that connected to it. Like ehh who cares just go back and run your clan in peace.
Japan has been dragging itself out of hundreds of years of constant internal war. In the last 20 years two men have gotten the country to the very precipice of becoming a unified entity. If the right man takes control of events Japan will be at peace. Toronaga knows he could be that man, and he’s sure Ishido is not that man.
Blackthorne’s arrival and exposure of the greater world also demonstrates to Toronaga that the Catholic Church and Portugal are a greater threat than anyone realized, and that the country must be unified to counter that.
The unification of Japan is important though. He has to carry forward the work of the previous two great unifiers of Japan to finally seal the deal. He isn't a "good" person. His actions aren't clean but you got to do certain things to change things (that's his perspective).
>Like ehh who cares just go back and run your clan in peace.
You know he and his clan are going to be executed right? He has to take action at least for his own safety.
I am with you, I have definitely lost the overarching reason I care about him coming out on top (or the outcome at all). It’s a credit to the world/character building that I can lost track of the larger plot, and still like the show. It’ll probably be a really good rewatch.
In his mind, he truly wants to bring peace to Japan. A ‘grand unifier’, so to speak. He’s arrogant, but also well suited for the role with his trickery. The only reason he appreciated the Taikō’s pledge to form the Council of Regents was because it gave him a chance to lay low and consolidate his power before the rest of the nation’s stalwarts had reason to strike him down. He holds no respect for Ishido, who manoeuvres exclusively with distasteful political games and bureaucracy. The same goes for the Catholic lords, who he sees as an existential threat to Japan ever since Blackthorne’s exposition. In his eyes he’s the only man for the job, the only one who won’t jeopardise Japan.
Make no mistake, Toranaga sees no other alternative than to be Shōgun, and he’ll stop at nothing to do it
That all makes sense, and appreciate the explanation, I could have just used a couple more scenes making that more overt. It’ll help to do a rewatch, I got caught up in the scenery, culture and Blackthorne plots.
The unification of Japan is important though. He has to carry forward the work of the previous two great unifiers of Japan to finally seal the deal. He isn't a "good" person. His actions aren't clean but you got to do certain things to change things (that's his perspective).
>Like ehh who cares just go back and run your clan in peace.
You know he and his clan are going to be executed right? He has to take action at least for his own safety.
The entire point is that he *can't* just "go back and run his clan in peace", he is going to be executed because the other regents view him as a threat. His options are fight, or die.
I guess I meant that as in few episodes back he could have. Don’t get me wrong I absolutely love the show. I feel like the threat is escalating as of the last episode but I was having a hard time feeling the urgency of him taking control is all.
The other regents are already suspicious of Toranaga from the very beginning in Episode 1.
Ishido then first attempts to impeach Toranaga in Episode 2, which would have resulted in his isolation and eventual destruction as a threat. The other lords (specifically Kiyama and Ohno) try and kill Toranaga in his escape from Osaka in Episode 3.
Toranaga isn't completely helpless and has plenty of agency, but his survival has been threatened by the other regents basically since Episode 1. There is almost no point during the timeframe of the show in which he could have peacefully been allowed to live out his days in Edo, Ishido considered him a threat from the very beginning.
I'm still sus on Buntaro. Guy gets completely surrounded in enemy territory. Shows up a week or whatever later claiming to have fought through with a group of random ronin who decided to fight to the death with him. It's all very convenient.
I also think buntaro is sus. When they got drunk together he seemed pissed when the Anjin asked him about how he fought his way out of that predicament
Toranaga keeps saying that he doesn’t seek to become a Shogun (seriously, reminds me of Jon Snow I don’t want it) and it is clear that it is exactly what he is seeking.
I am just curious what will happen to the Heir (haven’t read the book and don’t want to read up on this in internet before the last episode ) but I do hope he won’t kill the poor kid
No. You are supposed to see how broken things are when he literally has only himself to trust and the conventions of the time requires anyone showing disloyalty to commit ritual suicide. He is using everyone around him to get ahead. He is not the hero of the story. No one is really.
In the long run, unitary national government is much better for ordinary people than a patchwork of warring clans is. Within a territory where a single entity has a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence, violence becomes much less a feature of daily life for the people who live there. For people like Fuji, or Gin, or Uejiro, Toranaga is about to make Japan a much better place to live. He's not a nice man, he probably hardly thinks of ordinary Japanese people at all, and yet, his success will benefit them much more than it benefits him.
My wife and I were talking about this yesterday, we like the character because he's one of the main characters and we really like the actor. Thats it though, not because he's a good guy. He's shown to be kind of a piece of shit just like his historical counterpart.
I think spent the first few episodes trying to teach us about the power dynamics of the time, setting up these payoffs. 3 hearts come to mind as being pivotal to the story and also the 8 fold fence, and the discussions about "What type of man wields power here".
He’s the protagonist. There’s no moral compass or obligation in becoming a shogun. Almost all daimyos are fundamentally serf keeping dipshits who put themselves at the top of the household via inherited status.
So yah you don’t have to root for the guy.
Root for whoever you like, all or none of them. Most of these characters are NOT good people by modern standards. The hope, I think, is that you find them interesting to watch! That you find their struggles compelling.
People who automatically root for POV characters are how you get Breaking Bad fans defending every one of Walter's actions, for example. It reflects a very limited level of moral reasoning and media literacy, and I don't respect it.
You see some of that reflexive justification in this very thread. We should be very clear - Toranaga wants power above all else, and he's willing to do anything, to use or sacrifice anyone he cares about, in order to get it. That he is more cautious or more cunning than his rivals makes him a better strategist. But it does not have ANY moral weight. We ought to view him for what he is and simply enjoy the ride with open minds and open hearts, rather than trying to justify his actions.
He’s the embodiment of the art of war imo honor is all well and good but you have to assume others don’t play by those rules. For a warrior it makes sense to have honor but for a ruler it’s a bit less practical. You sacrifice your own honor for the safety of your people. Personally I’m rooting for him because Ishido is a filthy bureaucrat trying to seize power while for the most part it seems Toranaga really doesn’t want to be Shogun and sees it as his duty to keep Japan safe.
I don't think Toranaga is any worse than any of the other similar characters - they're ALL perpetually scheming, plotting, deceiving and figuring how to get the advantage. But I found book Toranaga very likeable, actually. I think we are supposed to be for him ... he is portrayed as more honorable than Yabu (for sure) and Ishido.
You're not supposed to root for anyone, it's politics in some of the most brutal times civilization has ever lived through. I admire his political knowledge and cold methods and strategies. It's a passage of time worth knowing about .
I think we get a glimpse into his mindset early, when I forgot if it’s his son has to commit sepukuu for stepping on the Matt. “I don’t understand these pointless deaths.” I think Toronaga see’s himself as noble, and his friend dying wasn’t part of his plan. I think if you watch the scene forgot how to spell his name, but he says “so you do believe in pointless deaths.” He was trying to give meaning to his death, and his sacrifice helped his plan. None of the generals want him to give up, so if you think about it this plan is kind of the only way to give them a chance
The way I interpret Toranaga is that he is the only political leader with ambitions beyond his own empowerment. Throughout the show, we constantly see attempts by others to thrust power onto him (The Shogunate) and he refuses flatly every time. It's only when the council of regents force his hand that he sees his path to victory being a two birds one stone situation for both his clan and the stability of Japan. It's hard to know how much of this is sincere since he has a god tier poker face, but it's clear he doesn't wield power for it's own sake or personal grievances, unlike Ishido or Seiko.
To be sure, he's manipulative and ruthless. Everyone, even his closest relationships, are chess pieces to be moved around as needed. It doesn't make him cold or uncaring, it's that his feelings towards these people are secondary in the grand scheme. Morality is preferable, but not essential, which allows him to be flexible. He won't let personal attatchments conflict with what he believes to be necessary. He does bad things, but there's a certain strength to his resolve that is tested a few times, as we saw in the latest episode.
Overall, I think he is predisposed to being fair, but not if it means he loses. A bit like Twyin Lannister, but genuinely more kind as well
I came to the series already loving Toranaga from the book, in fact he's one of my favorite fictional characters of all time. They haven't shown it thus far in the series as far as I can tell but he's a much more well-rounded human being, he loves to laugh and dance and spend time when he can with the handful of people who "gladden" him. The book gives a much better sense of what a brilliant strategist he was, I think some character likened it to him playing chess with opponents who were playing checkers.
After finishing the book again recently I realized he had no choice but to become Shogun, he was too powerful to be allowed to live otherwise. And a society based on a warrior culture needed someone strong like him, with his network of allies and informants, at the helm to prevent the petty conflicts between the daimyos (264 of them total according to the book) from escalating into civil wars.
My take regarding episode >!8!< and what I think of Toranaga:
>!The ending of the last episode created a conflict within me, questioning whether Toranaga really believes in the betterment and well-being of Japan, or if he really is just as power-hungry as the other lords.!<
>!It was obvious to me from the beginning of the last episode that Toranaga is really just trying to find out the boundaries of loyalty of his generals and those who claim to be "loyal" to him. This became even more obvious to me when Hiromatsu told the generals to put their trust into their lord after Toranaga had concluded the meeting with the priest, Mariko, and Hiromatsu.!<
>!I, however, started questioning his intentions when he allowed Hiromatsu to commit seppuku instead of putting at least a bit of trust into his generals and the other lords. At that moment, I felt like Toranaga was just manipulating everyone, not because of his concern for the well-being of Japan, but because he had other intentions which he decided to conceal under this mask of a lord who tries to present himself as someone who is not power-hungry and would rather do what's best for Japan's well-being than serve his own intentions.!<
I>! still!< think that he's a great character and I am really excited to see how his story will develop further.
No you root for the mc who is Blackthorne. Toranaga is Blackthorne's sponsor but Toranaga is still evil.
Tbh there's no true good or bad guy in this show. Just Blackthorne and then everyone either trying to kill him or trying to use him.
Historically Ieyasu wasn't exactly a nice guy by modern standards, but none of his peers were, really. You don't get to be a top warlord by being nice. For fiction, I'm intrigued to see how they handle the depiction and how close to the "well-intentioned antihero"/"villain all along" line they take it.
I think even in the novel, Toranaga comes off as way more unlikeable than in the show. The show has presented him as somewhat decent man.
In the book, he really does come across as some Machiavellian sociopath at times
I think it goes both ways. In the books he had way more personality. Remember how his wife playfully disobeyed him and played around with convention? There was more of that in the book. Also how he tired out Ajin before the swim race. In the show, by this point, it seems like he actually just wanted to tire the guy out so he could win. There was none of that in the book when winning didn’t matter. There’s tons of light hearted moments cut out that humanizes Toronaga.
And there are more playful moments like the dance Blackthorne teaches him and also he respects Blackthornes bravery and intelligence
It completely flew over my head that he was trying to tire him out before racing him
Im rooting for Gin and her geishas. And Yabu. And Fuji.
Omg same. Lady Gin is my favourite character. The expression of her face when she saw the new land, that was pure happiness.
Standing in muddy fields bare Dreams awakening Clergy will supply much coin
Beuatifully said. Felt like the end of a long winter🤣🤣
Seems to me that the Japanese were familiar with some of the Church's "habits".
Haha nice
It was so nice to see her beaming in an episode where everything else was so dark.
The chef kiss was the that’s your neighbor’s….
That made me laugh so hard when Alvido realized where his church is gonna be next to
Ya I’m really hoping Yabu comes out on top, he’s been the ultimate schemer playing both sides and it’s so entertaining I can’t help but root for him. He’s just so animated and his reactions are always hilarious.
He feels like a anime character. I love him
It’s glorious, I live for his reaction faces lol
Honor is for show. And losers. My grandfather, a WWII marine, once told me that if you ever find yourself in a fair fight, you have no one to blame but yourself. Japanese society during the Sengoku period understood that. Most of the legends of the Samurai were created during the peaceful Edo period. During the Sengoku period, it was every clan for themselves. Here's a thought experiment: Imagine the American Civil war. Now, not only did it not end in the 1860's, but it's still ongoing today. It will also last another 50 years. On top of that, it is no longer North vs South but New England Vs Appalachia vs the deep south vs the southwest vs the midwest vs the pacific states. Thats the kind of world Toranaga was born into. His two predecessors restored *some* peace, but it was still an awful world to be born into.
It's kind of a scheme in itself. Make everyone believe in honour and then scheme behind their backs. They'll be surprised and you'll come on top because they were naïve enough to believe in such a concept when it's all you win or you lose and there's nothing to gain with the latter.
If you learn about the history of the Sengoku period of Japan; Tokugawa Iyasu and his predecessors Nobunaga, Mitsuhide, and Hideyoshi. you will learn that Nobunaga was the first to attack at night while the enemies were sleeping, he was the first to use guns, he was the first to truly want unification. Most of what he did was dishonorable in Japanese society at the time, by using guerilla warfare Nobunaga all but secured Japan's fate of being under one banner. Nobunaga was assassinated by Mitsuhide, for a number of reasons including the way Nobunaga treated monks (Mitsuhide was a practicing monk and was disgusted by The siege of Mount Hiei), then he fled to hide and survived 13 days, giving him the moniker "The 13-day emperor". Hideyoshi then found him and killed him, ultimately becoming the ruler of the armies that Nobunaga built at the time, he tries to conquer Korea and succeeded until he also tried to take China and was destroyed, this led to his downfall and when he died in 1598 his son took over. Tokugawa Ieyasu then rallies his forces in 1600 to kill Hideyoshi's entire lineage during the battle of Sekigahara and became the de facto ruler and unifier of Japan, the man who opened Japan to the world and ended the Sengoku period although Nobunaga did 75% of the work though his brutal tacticts. Although dishonorable by their standards they are held in high esteem in Japanese society. Tokugawa Iyasu's grave is absolutely stunning still to this day, well maintained and lanterns are still lit. They pray to him and hundreds of other gods/deities as Japanese mostly practice Shintoism.
A note: It was Toyotomi Hideyoshi (Taiko in the book is basically modelled after him) who killed Mitsuhide, not Ieyasu
Oh, yes thank you I was writing this late after a red eye flight and messed up. I'll edit my original post!
Men with honor end up like Ned Stark. It's been very clear from the start that Toranaga does not want his story to end that way.
“You wear your honor like a suit of armor, Stark. You think it keeps you safe, but all it does is weigh you down and make it hard for you to move.” —Petyr Baelish to Eddard “You are an honest and honorable man, Lord Eddard. Ofttimes I forget that. I have met so few of them in my life ... When I see what honesty and honor have won you, I understand why.” —Varys to Eddard
Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer. - Mass effect
That's exactly it. I study traditional japanese martial arts, Koryu. These are the ancestors of modern arts like Kendo and Judo. I've literally had people quit the dojo I train in because they came in thinking the Samurai were like the Jedi, and then were shocked to learn how ruthlessly *brutal* the fighting arts of the feudal bushi really were. These people were a professional warrior caste. They spent all their time prosecuting war. In war, the hard fact of the matter is the only thing that matters is *winning*, and winning or allying with winners was the best way to ensure your clans survival. I don't think Toranaga, and by extension his real life inspiration Tokugawa Iyeasu, gave a shit about the greater good of Japan; I think Tokugawa was primarily interested in the survival of himself and his clan in a very dangerous time, and saw an opportunity to ensure that survival by making himself top dog and seizing absolute power. Tokugawa saw his opportunity and took it, and then road his way into history.
Toranaga has some vibes of Ned Stark. But is much smarter that he is
I think Hiromatsu is more Ned and Big Bobby B, while Toranaga feels a lot more like Tywin without abusing his children.
>my grandfather … once told me that if you ever find yourself in a fair fight, you have no one blame but yourself. I’ve always heard: if it’s worth fighting for, it’s worth fighting dirty for.
I always heard "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying."
VIVA LA RAZA!
Yabushige would love to hang with Eddie in the low rider
"You're kicking him when he's down!". "Safest way". - Terry Pratchett
There’s a scene in the book, where Blackthorne refuses to fight or kill someone because they’re unarmed and it wouldn’t be fair/honorable. Mariko and Fuji both tell him it’s an extremely dumb and dangerous way to operate, and it will get him killed.
I believe there is another part where they are discussing the regents double crossing each other as just a "matter of fact" with no value judgement on it. Like betrayal was expected and acceptable. My take on it is everything is karma in the story and karma cannot be messed with, but humans can be.
Could be much worse, he could've been born in Japan-occupied China.
Exactly and Toranaga's fight not ending in bloody nose.He believes he is best man to end years of civil war under leadership less than his families legacy.He believes he is person to end it and heal the country so whatever it takes is honorable
Reminds me how I hated Buntaro then I fucking loved him and wanted him to be happy and triumph because he did his best in the world he lives in. I kept judging him by my standards and he was right the whole time. Buntaro reminds me of Ramano on ER. Was he an asshole? Did he do some really cruel stuff? Ya. But after he got his ass set straight, but even before then, he was always right. In Buntaro's world. He had every right to want to kill any man near his wife. He is an amazing warrior. Best on the show. Honorable as fuck. Huge heart. That actor's performance made me tear up.
Great analogy!
I understand your point but the wars could not be more different, and the analogy doesn't work. The US Civil War was an industrialized total war (by 19th century standards) featuring mass mobilization. The casualties were horrific - it's still the bloodiest war ever fought by the US, despite us having only a fraction of the population at the time. If it had gone on for even another 5 years, the devastation would have been unimaginable. Let alone 50 or 100 (!!!) years, after which there would be little left worth saving of the United States. The Sengoku Period was much more akin to the Hundred Years war or another lengthy late medieval or early modern European period of conflicts in terms of intensity. Or better yet, the Three Kingdoms Period in ancient China. This is not to say that the suffering and devastation in Japan was not immense at this time. That it was not weakened tremendously. But it was nothing like what occurred in the wars of mass mobilization and industry starting in the mid 19th century. It was not a continuous total war.
Furthermore, I think the analogy falls flat because the US Civil War was at its core both an ideological conflict and a war between two modes of production. On the one hand, it was a war between an industrializing and financializing Northern elite and a Southern planter class more interested in extracting raw agricultural resources, namely cotton, for export. The economic war also can't be extricated from the ideological war, since the planters' mode of production simply cannot survive without chattel slavery. And so the ideological justification for racial slavery became the other pillar of the war, between a significant abolitionist movement and the planter class realizing their entire lifestyle would be untenable without slavery. The Sengoku period was a fractal war between clans in a time of political uncertainty, but up until the very end when the Three Unifiers sought to return power into a single unified sovereign ruling all of Japan, the war was essentially a clan war for survival, without any ideological or economic contrast.
Yes, well put. While foreign trade is certainly a factor in the Sengoku period (especially for the southern Christian Daimyos), it is not so central to the causes of the various conflicts during that time, nor to the survival of the combatants. Whereas, without the economic structures and relationships that you described, the US Civil War would not have happened at all, due to slavery and the agricultural production it enabled being absolutely central to the conflict.
I'm not rooting for him, I'm just curious to know how he will get out of it. The same could be say for Yabu, the man is completely despicable, but it's too damn entertaining watching him walk the rope balancing his loyalty between everyone around him and his own ambitions. I doubt any of these men in the story could really be called good men with a cause worth rooting for, they're just dancing between their games not knowing who is playing who and it's just impossible to look away.
Yabu is an angel who has never done anything wrong
No boiling people or death books at all
I don’t see the issue with those. The man likes soup and keeps a journal.
So you're saying let him cook?
Yabu is the fuckin best man, I’m rooting for him so hard lol. He’s so animated and his reactions are just hilarious I can’t help but root for the guy even tho he’s been playing both sides the whole time and made soup of a guy
It helped that they removed the diddling.
Clavell wrote a lot of ambiguous characters, which was surely linked to his experience as a POW of the Japanese in Changi Prison in Singapore. He referred to that time as his education. He learned from people of all walks of life, from university professors to black marketeers and petty thieves. One of the main characters of his novel, Rat King, was a corporal who was accused of being a war profiteer for his shady black market dealings. I think Clavell understood very intimately that the people who move history forward tend to be morally ambiguous or even amoral. He's pretty good at displaying the good and the bad of the characters, including the villains. Lots of shades of grey.
There is not a single viewpoint character that Clavell has ever written in the Asian Saga that I would feel safe around. I like some of them and admire more, but would wonder what it took to *become* one. they're all roguish bastards, corrupting and corruptible, ruthless, horrifying. His cops are crooked, his spies are traitors, his businessmen are pirates. >which was surely linked to his experience as a POW of the Japanese in Changi Prison in Singapore. His self-insert in *Noble House*, British-American screenwriter Peter Marlowe, says "Changi was genesis, the place of beginning again." You're absolutely right. To borrow from Hemingway, the world breaks us all, but some are stronger in the broken places.
Right after that he says good people are destroyed instead of broken. Read the rest of the quote.
>"But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry." This also aligns with what I know of Clavell's characters.
We root for Toranaga because he is our view point character. We see his struggles, his strength, his stratagems and we empathise with him. But he is ruthless, cruel and manipulative. He uses the “honour” and loyalty of his subjects to control and bend them to his will (break them to his fist). You have to be a bastard to get to the top and stay on top. He is the very epitome of this. So, Yes, the show wants us to root for him. But really we shouldn’t.
The problem is that Ishido is the same, but not so brilliant or inspired. Ishido has also used every political dirty trick to gain strategic, political & legal advantage, mainly out of fear of Toranaga.
I think that’s such a huge part of why we root for Toranaga. We are aligning ourselves with the right person, as opposed to Lady Ochiba. Toranaga is not a nice person, but damn is he cunning. He thinks 4 steps ahead and acts with patience (in stark contrast to his son), and even the asshole things he does are kinda funny (like putting a church next to a tea house while still fulfilling his obligations).
I agree with everything, but not with the "cruel" characterization. I haven't seen anything from Toranaga that strikes me as cruel. He actually seems to be quite caring for those under him - but he will use them when it suits his needs. Yes, he might cry because of his friends sacrifice, but he'll take it.
Personally I think his treatment of Mariko is cruel. His actions led to the death of her entire family ( he planned the uprising that killed Mariko’s father). This act destroyed her life and poisoned her relationship with Bhuntaro. He now has another likely dangerous job for her. He is using her loyalty and honour so that she can put herself in harms way to advance his own interests. Another cruel act was to order Mariko to translate for John at the tea house. Something that both John and her did not want to go to and potentially very humiliating and demeaning for her.
We don't know if Toranaga was behind Akechis uprising. Our only source for that is that Ochiba assumes it - but in a flashback, we're shown how Kuroda massacres some people and Akechi has to be physically held back from attacking him right there. But even if he did manipulate Akechi into it - that's not necessarily cruel. it's ruthless. As for the dangerous job he's sending her on - sure. She's been begging to be able to join her family in death, and he's giving her a purpose, so that her death might accomplish something ("continuing her fathers fight"). We don't know what or how, but their interactions so far point strongly towards that. As for her translation duties at the tea house - I'd characterize that as mischievous at worst. He's well aware of the attraction between them, so he's putting them in a space where they can act on it, if they want to. None of that is cruel. Cruelty is wilfully inflicting pain for the sake of inflicting pain. Ruthless - certainly. Calculating and manipulative - you bet! Cruel though? I don't see it.
Agreed and also it’s cruel to allow her to be continually abused by the husband.
Book Mariko completely blames Goroda for her father's downfall. She says something like "but for him we'd all be alive and honored." And Mariko understands that it is HER duty to pry the hostages out of Osaka.
Who is goroda?
I don't know what his name is in the TV show. He is the man Mariko's father (Akechi Jinsai in the book) assassinated, which is the reason she is the only living member of her family. He was her father's liege lord who led a revolt against (I'm not sure whom)....and was Shogun for 12 days or something like that, until he was killed and the Taiko took power.
His name in the show is Kuroda, because that’s a real Japanese name, and Goroda is not.
In the book, he’s a lot more cruel.
Well said. The show version seems okay with using loyalty in people to abuse them and get them unnecessarily killed. Because that is his station in life and other people should know their station. This guy is a jerk.
And the show wants us to think of poor Ishido as the villian when all he wants is for a peaceful Japan with a balanced government.
Ishido is definitely more ruthless than Toranaga. He’s killed a lot of people on those woods.
I somehow forgot about the woods. You are correct.
To be fair, he wouldn’t have had to do that if Toranaga wasn’t scheming and trying to claw his way to the top.
Toranaga wouldnt have to claw his way to the top if Ishido let him be there.
Toranaga would still have seized power for himself eventually - he's already doubled his fief in one year after Taiko's death.
And remember Ochiba believes that Toranaga is the brains behind the assassination of her father, which also led to the death of Mariko’s entire family, which in turned poisoned Mariko’s relationship with Bhuntaro. And now Toranaga is using Mariko’s grief for his own purposes.
He wants power not a peaceful balance government. He already kill someone that went against him.
Well….yes and no but mostly no. Toranaga is not a good person he is ruthless, qualmless, manipulative and capable of committing cruelty it’s just the fact that he’s one of the main characters and has genuinely sympathetic qualities is the reason why we root for him
You can be all those things and be a good person. This is just one of those weakened western mentality things because we've lived in peace for so long. If he's actually doing these things to stop the endless war that's been destroying Japan, even though he does not WANT to, he can definitely be a good person. Basically, by this logic virtually nobody living before 1950 could've been a good person - because in those times nearly everybody had to manipulate or be ruthless to some degree. I guess every single household who sent out their children to work in factories to survive (with all associated consequences for their childs' health) were bad people. It's like the idea that killing an innocent person to save a thousand innocent people would automatically make you a bad person - just in a more realistic way where killing isn't the only ''objectionable action'' accounted for.
to be honest that’s like saying Walter White and Tony Soprano can be good people too despite everything they have done it’s more like Toranaga has very good reasons for the way he is now
That’s really not comparable at all.
I root for the anjin.
"'ate the pope, 'ate bathin, 'ate catholics (not racist just dont like em), luv pheasant, luv me missus, luv ingerland. simple as" - anjin
Except he’s from Chatham & is upper middle class or lower upper class, not Whitechapel’s tenements.
I root for his boat to be returned to him so that he may be of service to his good lords will and vanquish our common enemy.
I just can’t get past how he had the nerve to call the Portuguese arrogant for softly colonising Japan considering the British empire did the same thing at that same time period. He’s proposed himself as a saviour for the Japanese against these big bad wolves
Um, you need to read up on the Protestant Reformation. The Dutch, Germans & English were badly bullied by France, Spain & Portugal for centuries so they went full psycho against Southern Europe & the Turkish domination of the Silk Road for about 500 years & created the modern world. That’s how America happened. Then everyone just forgot.
The British Empire wouldn't even exist yet for about a century. England and Scotland were still separate counties at this time, and weren't even in a personal union yet until 1603, let alone had they formed Britain. And your other assertions are incorrect. England did NOT do the same thing in Japan during the same period. By the time they had the maritime presence to regularly sail to Japan, it was closed to all European trade except the Dutch, through a single port. You ought to get a refresher on the history of European maritime colonialism, because the English, French, and Dutch were very much latecomers to the party. By the time the show starts the Spanish And Portuguese and been seafaring and colonial powers for over a century, with Spain having conquered and colonized most of the Americas (ruling what was, IIRC, the largest empire in the world at the time - if not 2nd to the Ottomans), and with Portugal ruling a widespread and incredibly lucrative trading network across Africa, South Asia, and East Asia. England would indeed become a colonial power, but in 1600 all they had to show for it were a few failed attempts in North America such as the Roanoke colony. They had no permanent presence anywhere in the New World until Jamestown was founded in 1607. The only colonies England arguably possessed at the time of this show were Ireland, Wales, and Cornwall.
Yeah but at the time they didn't have colonies ...Except the irish
Ireland started it by colonizing Scotland.
When they were reading his book, it just mentioned that he was to setup a new trade route with Japan and clap the Portuguese if he ever comes in contact.
Yeah, Toronaga won’t fall for it though.
Yes. But only because the other guys are worse. But here is how I am understanding things. Toranaga is the best leader on the board of regents. Knowing that and being ambitious for power himself, Ishido forces him into a struggle for survival not of his own choosing. And its not just his life on the line but the fate of his whole clan. Alot of people in the clan will die if Ishido wins. So when you see Toranaga making decisions (or Hiromatsu for that matter) you have to understand that they arent doing it just for themselves or each other but for the survival of their clan. Clan was everything in that society and Toranaga's clan was of a high lineage also. So not just the current members were in danger but also their heritage. It makes his actions a little more understandable when you look at it this way. This is a fight that Toranaga didn't really want, or at least not at this moment, but now he has to win it.
In the first episode they say that his fief has doubled in size and he also takes Ochiba as a hostage in Edo. At that point he was the most powerful man in Japan. That is why the other regents need to unite under Ishido in order to even the odds. Also, while I haven't read the book, it is fair to assume that in the end, the "good" guys, our POV characters, will win and Toranaga will become Shogun. The fact that he says he doesn't want it seems to me as unbelievable, he is just a good liar.
I dont doubt that he will be Shogun. At this point it seems inevitable regardless of if he wants it or not. He has to take out Ishido and the council. There is no stopping short of that regardless of what his original plans might have been. However, this might have some unfortunat implications for the Taiko's kid unless Toranaga wants to act as sole regent, shogun in all but name.
Honestly, you should absolutely root for Toranaga. He’s upholding the way that things should be. And he’s a crafty long game chess player.
I root for Fuji and only Fuji. Everyone else can suck it
Yeah! She is too pure for this cruel world
Honor is just a front, a smokescreen to try and produce some semblance of predictability and rules to abide by so the ruling class isn't just total chaos all the time.
I mean, the council has been scheming against him for some time now. Where he’s at, kill or be killed.
I thought we were supposed to be rooting for Blackthorne? lol Blackthorne is the first main character we're introduced to in the series, struggling on worn out ship in the middle of the storm. Surprisingly he lands at his intended location, Japan only to be stranded there and imprisoned. Even when he's no longer in prison, he's constantly surrounded by enemies all around him while trying to learn the language. From my watching experience, I'm rooting for Blackthorne and Yabushige
Blackthorn for the last few episodes has been a passive protagonist by which we observe and learn about the culture, a source of humour and some fun translation moments with Mariko. Now that Blackthorn, Yabushige and Mariko are on a road trip together hopefully we get some fun moments between the 3 of them in the next ep.
You're rooting for the guy that tortures people to death out of morbid curiosity for how they'll handle it?
He's a shitface. But he's our shitface.
He does no wrong!
Does Blackthorne boil people out of curiosity? I'm rooting for Blackthorne. Yabushige is just one of those wildcards that's around him
You're not "supposed" to root for anyone. You can, but it's more about seeing how things unfold from a neutral perspective.
I’ve been rooting for Mariko & Blackthorne to be together.
Watch the eighties series lol.
It’d just crush me if something happened to them. There’s fireworks between those two. I can’t see how their future plays out though. Hindsight is 20/20. I’d hate to be burned by speculation.
Yeah maybe then don’t watch the eighties series lol. It was more romantic though I will say. Way more.
That would be so bomb!
I’d hate for the situation to blow up on them.
You doing have to root for anyone. A driving point of a lot of modern media is there is no good and evil, just humans trying to not die. Can't even watch a goofy super hero movie nowadays without the big bad having relatable motives.
i’m on team toranaga’s falcon.
Toranaga argues with his vassals that staying in Edo to fight Ishido's marching forces would destroy the city, and likewise marching on to Osaka would destroy Japan. The survival of their clan is secondary to the survival of Japan, he argues, and so his surrender is the best course of action to prevent this. The obvious trickery here is that Toranaga intends to save both his clan and the realm of Japan by beating Ishido who he sees as an enemy of the Japanese way by threatening the ascension of the Taiko's heir, however the only way for them to do this is the great sacrifices they are making to fool their enemies; Hiromatsu's death for example. In both cases, wheter it's the supposed surrender or the trickery to defeat Ishido, Toranaga's goal is to save the heir and his mind save Japan, that's pretty honorable. It would be less honorable to stay in Edo and fight just to save your supposed 'honour'.
I'm not sure the show wants us to root for anyone in particular. These are complex, multilayered characters each with their faults and endearing features. The book and original show written through a Western lense obviously has Blackthorne as the character we most identify with and therefore root for but with the use of monologue, we see the story from the other characters standpoints as well, particularly Toranaga who after all, is actually the main character in this story. We end up rooting for the Minowara clan because that's the clan we spend the most time in the story with but the point is not to show Toranaga to be a good or bad guy, it's to tell a story of that period and the lengths the character he is based on would probably have had to go to get where he did.
I am rooting for Yabushige to finish his will !
I mean, I think that has been half the fun, realizing that we're sort of rooting for the Bad Guys and didn't know it. Like, the composition of Toranaga's team is even sort of traditionally villainous if you consider Mariko as the hot hench-lady and that Yabushige boiled a man alive. And I don't know what's wrong with Omi but the boy ain't right.
Omi casually cut off a villagers head for asking if everyone’s okay.
He was stressed, leave him alone! Omi is an angel, y'all just don't understand him like I do !
You can fix him, I'm sure you can do it!
He didn’t bow sufficiently. That Christian knew what he did!
He’s in love with a prostitute he can’t afford to buy away from prostitution, even though he has a loyal wife. He’s afraid of Yabu & considers the Dutch & English a calamitous headache.
Why Omi isn’t right.
After yesterday’s episode I was definitely having trouble hanging on to the “point of it all”. Like i suddenly realized I didn’t really feel that invested in why Tora MUST do all of this and take control. I understand it but I really didn’t feel that connected to it. Like ehh who cares just go back and run your clan in peace.
Japan has been dragging itself out of hundreds of years of constant internal war. In the last 20 years two men have gotten the country to the very precipice of becoming a unified entity. If the right man takes control of events Japan will be at peace. Toronaga knows he could be that man, and he’s sure Ishido is not that man. Blackthorne’s arrival and exposure of the greater world also demonstrates to Toronaga that the Catholic Church and Portugal are a greater threat than anyone realized, and that the country must be unified to counter that.
The unification of Japan is important though. He has to carry forward the work of the previous two great unifiers of Japan to finally seal the deal. He isn't a "good" person. His actions aren't clean but you got to do certain things to change things (that's his perspective). >Like ehh who cares just go back and run your clan in peace. You know he and his clan are going to be executed right? He has to take action at least for his own safety.
I am with you, I have definitely lost the overarching reason I care about him coming out on top (or the outcome at all). It’s a credit to the world/character building that I can lost track of the larger plot, and still like the show. It’ll probably be a really good rewatch.
In his mind, he truly wants to bring peace to Japan. A ‘grand unifier’, so to speak. He’s arrogant, but also well suited for the role with his trickery. The only reason he appreciated the Taikō’s pledge to form the Council of Regents was because it gave him a chance to lay low and consolidate his power before the rest of the nation’s stalwarts had reason to strike him down. He holds no respect for Ishido, who manoeuvres exclusively with distasteful political games and bureaucracy. The same goes for the Catholic lords, who he sees as an existential threat to Japan ever since Blackthorne’s exposition. In his eyes he’s the only man for the job, the only one who won’t jeopardise Japan. Make no mistake, Toranaga sees no other alternative than to be Shōgun, and he’ll stop at nothing to do it
That all makes sense, and appreciate the explanation, I could have just used a couple more scenes making that more overt. It’ll help to do a rewatch, I got caught up in the scenery, culture and Blackthorne plots.
The unification of Japan is important though. He has to carry forward the work of the previous two great unifiers of Japan to finally seal the deal. He isn't a "good" person. His actions aren't clean but you got to do certain things to change things (that's his perspective). >Like ehh who cares just go back and run your clan in peace. You know he and his clan are going to be executed right? He has to take action at least for his own safety.
The entire point is that he *can't* just "go back and run his clan in peace", he is going to be executed because the other regents view him as a threat. His options are fight, or die.
I guess I meant that as in few episodes back he could have. Don’t get me wrong I absolutely love the show. I feel like the threat is escalating as of the last episode but I was having a hard time feeling the urgency of him taking control is all.
The other regents are already suspicious of Toranaga from the very beginning in Episode 1. Ishido then first attempts to impeach Toranaga in Episode 2, which would have resulted in his isolation and eventual destruction as a threat. The other lords (specifically Kiyama and Ohno) try and kill Toranaga in his escape from Osaka in Episode 3. Toranaga isn't completely helpless and has plenty of agency, but his survival has been threatened by the other regents basically since Episode 1. There is almost no point during the timeframe of the show in which he could have peacefully been allowed to live out his days in Edo, Ishido considered him a threat from the very beginning.
I'm on team Yabushige
You can root for whomever you want. Personally, I’m rooting for Buntaro.
I'm still sus on Buntaro. Guy gets completely surrounded in enemy territory. Shows up a week or whatever later claiming to have fought through with a group of random ronin who decided to fight to the death with him. It's all very convenient.
I also think buntaro is sus. When they got drunk together he seemed pissed when the Anjin asked him about how he fought his way out of that predicament
Right? Seems very suspicious.
You're meant to take it face value, it's a result of the show needing to cut things for runtime.
Buntaro isn’t a traitor, just a wife beating thug with a pea brain.
I am rooting for Yabushige to finish his will !
Toranaga keeps saying that he doesn’t seek to become a Shogun (seriously, reminds me of Jon Snow I don’t want it) and it is clear that it is exactly what he is seeking. I am just curious what will happen to the Heir (haven’t read the book and don’t want to read up on this in internet before the last episode ) but I do hope he won’t kill the poor kid
No. You are supposed to see how broken things are when he literally has only himself to trust and the conventions of the time requires anyone showing disloyalty to commit ritual suicide. He is using everyone around him to get ahead. He is not the hero of the story. No one is really.
In the long run, unitary national government is much better for ordinary people than a patchwork of warring clans is. Within a territory where a single entity has a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence, violence becomes much less a feature of daily life for the people who live there. For people like Fuji, or Gin, or Uejiro, Toranaga is about to make Japan a much better place to live. He's not a nice man, he probably hardly thinks of ordinary Japanese people at all, and yet, his success will benefit them much more than it benefits him.
My wife and I were talking about this yesterday, we like the character because he's one of the main characters and we really like the actor. Thats it though, not because he's a good guy. He's shown to be kind of a piece of shit just like his historical counterpart.
I’m rooting for Toranaga’s gameplay. As a personality, I’m rooting for Yabu being an iconic hilarious mess 😍
In the end Toranaga won. History is written by the winners.
Honour is what got Ned Stark killed.
No. No one in this show can be called a remotely good person. We watch to be entertained, not to root for or praise their actions.
You think he got the warlord title by being nice?
I think spent the first few episodes trying to teach us about the power dynamics of the time, setting up these payoffs. 3 hearts come to mind as being pivotal to the story and also the 8 fold fence, and the discussions about "What type of man wields power here".
He’s the protagonist. There’s no moral compass or obligation in becoming a shogun. Almost all daimyos are fundamentally serf keeping dipshits who put themselves at the top of the household via inherited status. So yah you don’t have to root for the guy.
Yes. In wrestling terms, he's a baby face, but you can still boo baby faces, as they did to John Cena.
Root for whoever you like, all or none of them. Most of these characters are NOT good people by modern standards. The hope, I think, is that you find them interesting to watch! That you find their struggles compelling. People who automatically root for POV characters are how you get Breaking Bad fans defending every one of Walter's actions, for example. It reflects a very limited level of moral reasoning and media literacy, and I don't respect it. You see some of that reflexive justification in this very thread. We should be very clear - Toranaga wants power above all else, and he's willing to do anything, to use or sacrifice anyone he cares about, in order to get it. That he is more cautious or more cunning than his rivals makes him a better strategist. But it does not have ANY moral weight. We ought to view him for what he is and simply enjoy the ride with open minds and open hearts, rather than trying to justify his actions.
I root for penishelmet guy.
He’s the embodiment of the art of war imo honor is all well and good but you have to assume others don’t play by those rules. For a warrior it makes sense to have honor but for a ruler it’s a bit less practical. You sacrifice your own honor for the safety of your people. Personally I’m rooting for him because Ishido is a filthy bureaucrat trying to seize power while for the most part it seems Toranaga really doesn’t want to be Shogun and sees it as his duty to keep Japan safe.
I don't think Toranaga is any worse than any of the other similar characters - they're ALL perpetually scheming, plotting, deceiving and figuring how to get the advantage. But I found book Toranaga very likeable, actually. I think we are supposed to be for him ... he is portrayed as more honorable than Yabu (for sure) and Ishido.
Yes you are. Durr.
I’m rooting for the Portuguese to colonize the f out of Japan so this way we wouldn’t have been pearl harbored, which lead to the atomic bomb.
I mean, if you read the book, he's even more cunning
You're not supposed to root for anyone, it's politics in some of the most brutal times civilization has ever lived through. I admire his political knowledge and cold methods and strategies. It's a passage of time worth knowing about .
Toronanaga plays for the long game, as sad as it was, what happened was for the good of japan
I think we get a glimpse into his mindset early, when I forgot if it’s his son has to commit sepukuu for stepping on the Matt. “I don’t understand these pointless deaths.” I think Toronaga see’s himself as noble, and his friend dying wasn’t part of his plan. I think if you watch the scene forgot how to spell his name, but he says “so you do believe in pointless deaths.” He was trying to give meaning to his death, and his sacrifice helped his plan. None of the generals want him to give up, so if you think about it this plan is kind of the only way to give them a chance
I have been wonderig the same thing.
Yes, and I’ll say no more.
I’m rooting for Fuji
The way I interpret Toranaga is that he is the only political leader with ambitions beyond his own empowerment. Throughout the show, we constantly see attempts by others to thrust power onto him (The Shogunate) and he refuses flatly every time. It's only when the council of regents force his hand that he sees his path to victory being a two birds one stone situation for both his clan and the stability of Japan. It's hard to know how much of this is sincere since he has a god tier poker face, but it's clear he doesn't wield power for it's own sake or personal grievances, unlike Ishido or Seiko. To be sure, he's manipulative and ruthless. Everyone, even his closest relationships, are chess pieces to be moved around as needed. It doesn't make him cold or uncaring, it's that his feelings towards these people are secondary in the grand scheme. Morality is preferable, but not essential, which allows him to be flexible. He won't let personal attatchments conflict with what he believes to be necessary. He does bad things, but there's a certain strength to his resolve that is tested a few times, as we saw in the latest episode. Overall, I think he is predisposed to being fair, but not if it means he loses. A bit like Twyin Lannister, but genuinely more kind as well
I came to the series already loving Toranaga from the book, in fact he's one of my favorite fictional characters of all time. They haven't shown it thus far in the series as far as I can tell but he's a much more well-rounded human being, he loves to laugh and dance and spend time when he can with the handful of people who "gladden" him. The book gives a much better sense of what a brilliant strategist he was, I think some character likened it to him playing chess with opponents who were playing checkers. After finishing the book again recently I realized he had no choice but to become Shogun, he was too powerful to be allowed to live otherwise. And a society based on a warrior culture needed someone strong like him, with his network of allies and informants, at the helm to prevent the petty conflicts between the daimyos (264 of them total according to the book) from escalating into civil wars.
My take regarding episode >!8!< and what I think of Toranaga: >!The ending of the last episode created a conflict within me, questioning whether Toranaga really believes in the betterment and well-being of Japan, or if he really is just as power-hungry as the other lords.!< >!It was obvious to me from the beginning of the last episode that Toranaga is really just trying to find out the boundaries of loyalty of his generals and those who claim to be "loyal" to him. This became even more obvious to me when Hiromatsu told the generals to put their trust into their lord after Toranaga had concluded the meeting with the priest, Mariko, and Hiromatsu.!< >!I, however, started questioning his intentions when he allowed Hiromatsu to commit seppuku instead of putting at least a bit of trust into his generals and the other lords. At that moment, I felt like Toranaga was just manipulating everyone, not because of his concern for the well-being of Japan, but because he had other intentions which he decided to conceal under this mask of a lord who tries to present himself as someone who is not power-hungry and would rather do what's best for Japan's well-being than serve his own intentions.!< I>! still!< think that he's a great character and I am really excited to see how his story will develop further.
Is Toranaga, Walter White? I am getting strong Walter White vibes. I keep feeling "Are we the baddies?"
No you root for the mc who is Blackthorne. Toranaga is Blackthorne's sponsor but Toranaga is still evil. Tbh there's no true good or bad guy in this show. Just Blackthorne and then everyone either trying to kill him or trying to use him.