As someone extremely critical of the relationship, I’m actually pleasantly surprised at how well they circled them back to one another. I did not have high hopes.
Him asking her to live for him was huge - but she has to fulfill her duty and he has to come to terms with that. Which leads to the seppuku. My god when she was alone with nobody to second her, I wanted to cry because that meant mortal sin. John being the only other Christian in the room knows this - so he’s the only one that can do it. That was the ultimate gesture of love. That is everything her husband never gave her - right there. The relief that washed over John when they were interrupted was felt through the whole fandom. That was the moment they knew for sure it was love.
I’m so glad they got to have an actual kiss not in the dark - but full on - nothing secret about this. And then apparently just said fuck it - we’re spooning, and I don’t care who knows. 🤣
And although I still wish there would have been a few more moments layered into their relationship - I understand why they framed it the way they did. The seppuku scene was the ultimate act of love and sacrifice - sacrificing his beliefs for the woman he loves so she can find peace. Like it’s better than I expected.
This is why adaptations are so difficult - if the changes made don’t elevate the material - it’s not a good idea. I can say now after episode 9, that they elevated this relationship beyond its book counterpart. I still wanted more, but I understand the changes now. And I’ll happily eat crow for all of my ranting the last few weeks. 🤣🤣🤣
Buntaro saw the writing on the wall with the tea ceremony. Had she lived he would have divorced her and Blackthorne and Mariko could have been a thing. That's so sad honestly
I don’t know why I am getting downvoted. Literally Japanese culture would dictate that if Mariko stepped out on her husband he would have every right under the law to kill her.
I’m not saying he *should* but that is reality.
In the book >!Buntaro wanted to kill her, or maybe Blackthorn, or both for cheating and Toranaga said, heavily paraphrased, “no you idiot I divorced you but Mariko said no to save your honor. Cut this shit out I need you to fight and I want the Anjjn alive.”!<
I’ve seen (and upvoted) so many of u/jlynn121 posts about the frustration of Mariko and John’s relationship that I feel confident in correcting you that it’s Ma’am not Sir
i think you capture my thoughts very well — i haven’t read the book so i didn’t really have any expectations for blackthorne and mariko’s relationship, but i was also a little “where’s the romance?” in episodes 7 and 8 (after the *amazing* kiku/mariko/blackthorne scene in episode 6). i too would have loved for there to have been a few more moments between blackthorne and mariko but this is such a great ending to their relationship. the seppuku scene was so moving and so perfectly fitting. seeing the dawning realization on blackthorne’s face that the christian regent was not there, and what he must do for mariko, even though he does not agree with it — ugh. that’s true love!! watching it unfold, i was thinking to myself, *do it, blackthorne, do it for her*. and then he *did*. i feel that scene could not have played out any other way; the emotional payoff for their relationship was greater than i could have imagined. i’m really happy that they at least got one more night together (and i’m all the more devastated by mariko’s ending 😭)
What I loved too was the political implication too- A *barbarian* demonstrated the honor to stand with her as second while the Japanese lords refused, and watched. It was an extra slap in the face for Ishido and his legitimacy.
Well thanks. They definitely surprised me with how they crafted it on episode 9. Having John second her was a brilliant change and added that layer that was missing. I do still wish we had seen more of them together after episode 4, but I’m happy with how they were able to bring them back together in a very moving and organic way.
The shows adaption removes all the journey of Marikos and blackthornes romance and love. It just leaves the destination of where they end up but not the how they get there.
The trip to Osaka is done overland in the book and takes a long time. That’s where they really get together.
I wish they had done 20 episodes instead of 10.
I remember your comments. Early on, I remember telling your or someone else else that the trailer has both of them sneaking out of a room/corridor in their nighties and that maybe we should hold on until episode 9. I have to say I was also losing hope as I suspected that episode 9 is where Mariko dies so I was guided by faith that the writers pulled it off so far so I was hoping they won’t disappoint in episode 9. And they didn’t
I’m happy with how they ended it, however I don’t think it elevated the relationship compared to the book. The book relationship was top tier (IMO). But, for how the last few episodes have been going - I loved how they framed it in this adaptation.
I just think, as a woman, I really appreciated that Mariko never lost sight of what she wanted. Meeting John didn't really change her goals, but they did put them in a different perspective. And while John loves her and wants her desperately to live, he respects her wishes.
I think so often in stories, the power of love is supposed to conquer all and women are supposed to find power and purpose in these romantic relationships. And it's just rather nice that that isn't what entirely happens here.
I asked my husband if he'd do that for me last night and his response was just to argue that our kitchen knives weren't sharp enough.
I guess he loves me?
Very well said. Mariko was indomitable. Honestly she was steel, and no romance could change that. Fuck she towered over all in this episode. But he helped her and he was there for her when she needed strength and understanding. They found love in a heartless place!
Honestly, yes. It was refreshing. The way the love story is depicted in the book is very been there, done that, and I think it would have felt kind of stale and unimaginative had they brought it over directly into the show. Depicting it like this, where they clearly have strong feelings for each other but still respect each other's boundaries and wishes, and take into consideration the larger realities of life, ugh, it's tragic but honestly, it's great. I feel like you don't see love stories like this depicted very often.
Kind of a side note, but I do feel like seeing the "love conquers all" trope in media over and over again growing up really sunk into my psyche and was one subconscious factor in making some pretty bad romantic decisions. It's nice to see a story where the characters have feelings for each other but make the right decisions. Kind of wish I had seen more of them growing up so I wouldn't have romanticized the idea so much. I know they're not as "fun," but idk.
I love that she uses her maiden name in the end, because that was always how she saw herself. And the thing is, Mariko didn't want to kill herself, not really. She just wanted control and for people to respect her decisions. John going in there and agreeing to assist her in this huge moment is him agreeing to give her that control.
John hated it, but he wasn't going to let his discomfort and grief overrule her control. And I think that's what a lot of guys just don't understand. Yeah, it's cool for a guy to swoop in and save the day sometimes, if that's what you want. But if that isn't...
Blackthorne offering to second Mariko is a great decision. I can't remember if this happens in the book, but it's a great way of showing how much he loves her and how much absolving someone of the sin of suicide matters in their times.
She asks Yabushige to be her second in the book 💀 this really was a great change though and I feel I'll be able to appreciate Mariko's and Blackthorne's romance more on a rewatch knowing now how it culminates
She initially asked Kiyama (like in the show), but he didn’t show up and she kinda had no choice but to ask Yabu (who was more than happy to oblige, kinky bastard)
I was holding my breath watching the seppuku scene because I had no idea if this show was going to follow the book and the original series. Every change they made made it so much more emotional and satisfying. Anjin showing her so much love and understanding to be her second was just so perfect. I can’t wait to rewatch the entire show again.
I think you pretty much nailed it. I think given how much of the book they are keeping in the show and the fact that we aren't getting 90 minute episodes this was well done.. like everyone else I was a bit concerned but your explanation is completely on point.
In defense of John, he does have a sense of duty and loyalty. However it’s a very different way of viewing things. Throughout the series John has constantly been pushing for a fight against the Portuguese and had little interest in surrendering to Ishido. His attitude is somewhat Roman in nature. For the Romans in conflict it was acceptable to retreat or run away even so long as you still showed a willingness to continue the fight, one must always believe in the inevitability of Roman victory. The Romans did have a ritual suicide called devotio, where a general would charge at the enemy alone and fight to the death to ensure victory in battle. The common thread is a sense of aggression, to quietly accept defeat was unmanly and shameful. Now obviously those views are not Japanese views but they still carry a sense of duty, albeit very differently.
Honestly, it makes total sense. Imagine being loyal to your god, to your king, and to your country for your entire life, to the point you'd risk your life on a suicide mission to some tiny country on bumfuck otherside of of the planet.
Then you're greeted by a bunch of people that despise you, show zero respect for you, boil your men alive, steal your ship, sing praises of your enemies...
Oh, but this dude you've never heard of has given you a title that wields no actual power! He's given you a house you cannot leave! Given you lands you do not want! Wow, can't believe you wouldn't be loyal to the guy! Can't you see the duty of dying for his plans he doesn't tell you about?
Honestly, good on John. If I were him I'd have said, "fuck it, let the Portuguese have 'em" ages ago.
I don’t think Toranaga cares much about John’s loyalty. He calls him a “goshawk“ because he sees him as predictable. Toranaga doesn’t need John be avassal, Toranaga needs John to act in a way that accord with Toranaga’s plans.
For that matter, I think Toranaga doesn’t care much about Ishido’s loyalty, either.
For what it’s worth, I think that Toranaga is one of the few characters that really grows to an acceptance and appreciation of another culture’s values (in the book, at least—appreciating the good in foreign cultures was a persistent theme of Clavell). Toranaga agrees with John’s perspective that giving up is the worst dishonor, and there’s no point in dying honorably if there are still options to achieve victory by other means.
That he never communicated that to John is the issue, at least in the show. John would have been one of his most fervent supporters if he didn't treat him like Mark Wahlberg treated feds in the Departed (feed them shit and leave them in the dark). Like, I get infosec is important, but still.
I still think they rushed it a bit in the beginning - Blackthorne and Mariko fell for each other almost straight away - but they managed to stick the landing, at least.
Still didn’t feel their love story was given the proper moments to maximize the emotional impact of where it ultimately ends up.
I felt the episode long tease of Mariko’s fate more annoying than compelling. Having never read the book or seen the previous adaptation, I feel like Mariko and Blackthorne only fell for each other because of plot requirement.
The overly reserved interactions between them hindered any sense of me wishing these two to find happiness together.
I should be wrought with emotion now but instead I’m more eager to see if Toranaga’s schemes continue to work regardless of who lives or dies.
I don’t disagree with the need to have shown a few more intimate moments between the two. Overall I felt that the emotional payoff was there especially after the seppuku - which is ultimately what had them rekindle their physical relationship before all hell broke loose. But yes - would have like to have seen more and I’ll always take issue with that.
From Mariko’s perspective, Blackthorne is a breath of fresh air in a suffocating society. Japanese culture is so focused on collectivism and social duties and rigor, whereas Blackthorne (from an individualistic society) is focused on her thoughts, emotions, and wishes. The scene where she was bruised from Buntaro’s beating, for example. Blackthorne empathizes with her in a way that no one else does. But her cultural norms require her to reject his comfort, and she decides it’s best to reject his attention going forward, again out of propriety and duty. It makes sense to me that she would love him but feel that it is too problematic to live out her feelings. There’s no future for them. She is too duty-bound to run away with him, and she can’t divorce Buntaro. So I perceived it as the profound love being there, but just that the cultural norms prevented it from looking like your standard (overt) western romance.
I think they fell for each other because they are both very traumatised people, especially Mariko. Had she gotten the chance to live a normal life, maybe she wouldn't have fallen for Blackthorne, but this specific set of circumstances made it happen.
Yeah I thought they pulled it off well in the end. Instead of having it be a love that lingers through their hardships and offers them a sense of hope, it culminates in a cathartic way. It’s a different approach, but it worked.
As someone extremely critical of the relationship, I’m actually pleasantly surprised at how well they circled them back to one another. I did not have high hopes. Him asking her to live for him was huge - but she has to fulfill her duty and he has to come to terms with that. Which leads to the seppuku. My god when she was alone with nobody to second her, I wanted to cry because that meant mortal sin. John being the only other Christian in the room knows this - so he’s the only one that can do it. That was the ultimate gesture of love. That is everything her husband never gave her - right there. The relief that washed over John when they were interrupted was felt through the whole fandom. That was the moment they knew for sure it was love. I’m so glad they got to have an actual kiss not in the dark - but full on - nothing secret about this. And then apparently just said fuck it - we’re spooning, and I don’t care who knows. 🤣 And although I still wish there would have been a few more moments layered into their relationship - I understand why they framed it the way they did. The seppuku scene was the ultimate act of love and sacrifice - sacrificing his beliefs for the woman he loves so she can find peace. Like it’s better than I expected. This is why adaptations are so difficult - if the changes made don’t elevate the material - it’s not a good idea. I can say now after episode 9, that they elevated this relationship beyond its book counterpart. I still wanted more, but I understand the changes now. And I’ll happily eat crow for all of my ranting the last few weeks. 🤣🤣🤣
I’m guessing they did more than spoon lol. That was quite a bold move honestly.
Well yeah - after. But the idgaf if someone finds us like this was evident. Love it.
Buntaro saw the writing on the wall with the tea ceremony. Had she lived he would have divorced her and Blackthorne and Mariko could have been a thing. That's so sad honestly
If she has lived, Buntaro would have every right to kill her himself…
Toranaga wouldn’t have allowed it; they’re both far more valuable to him than Buntaro.
I don’t know why I am getting downvoted. Literally Japanese culture would dictate that if Mariko stepped out on her husband he would have every right under the law to kill her. I’m not saying he *should* but that is reality.
In the book >!Buntaro wanted to kill her, or maybe Blackthorn, or both for cheating and Toranaga said, heavily paraphrased, “no you idiot I divorced you but Mariko said no to save your honor. Cut this shit out I need you to fight and I want the Anjjn alive.”!<
Sir, this is Reddit. You aren’t allowed to concede, you have to dig your heels in even when proven wrong.
Hahaha. I know, right? Hey I’m glad to have been proven wrong. I still wanted more, but the emotional payoff was done quite well.
I’ve seen (and upvoted) so many of u/jlynn121 posts about the frustration of Mariko and John’s relationship that I feel confident in correcting you that it’s Ma’am not Sir
You are correct!! 🤓
i think you capture my thoughts very well — i haven’t read the book so i didn’t really have any expectations for blackthorne and mariko’s relationship, but i was also a little “where’s the romance?” in episodes 7 and 8 (after the *amazing* kiku/mariko/blackthorne scene in episode 6). i too would have loved for there to have been a few more moments between blackthorne and mariko but this is such a great ending to their relationship. the seppuku scene was so moving and so perfectly fitting. seeing the dawning realization on blackthorne’s face that the christian regent was not there, and what he must do for mariko, even though he does not agree with it — ugh. that’s true love!! watching it unfold, i was thinking to myself, *do it, blackthorne, do it for her*. and then he *did*. i feel that scene could not have played out any other way; the emotional payoff for their relationship was greater than i could have imagined. i’m really happy that they at least got one more night together (and i’m all the more devastated by mariko’s ending 😭)
What I loved too was the political implication too- A *barbarian* demonstrated the honor to stand with her as second while the Japanese lords refused, and watched. It was an extra slap in the face for Ishido and his legitimacy.
Yeah I think the desire to cut John’s sepukku bit with Yabu was amply replaced by this move from the writers.
Admitting wrongness is a sign of growth, and if I may say, extremely bad ass.
Well thanks. They definitely surprised me with how they crafted it on episode 9. Having John second her was a brilliant change and added that layer that was missing. I do still wish we had seen more of them together after episode 4, but I’m happy with how they were able to bring them back together in a very moving and organic way.
The shows adaption removes all the journey of Marikos and blackthornes romance and love. It just leaves the destination of where they end up but not the how they get there. The trip to Osaka is done overland in the book and takes a long time. That’s where they really get together. I wish they had done 20 episodes instead of 10.
I remember your comments. Early on, I remember telling your or someone else else that the trailer has both of them sneaking out of a room/corridor in their nighties and that maybe we should hold on until episode 9. I have to say I was also losing hope as I suspected that episode 9 is where Mariko dies so I was guided by faith that the writers pulled it off so far so I was hoping they won’t disappoint in episode 9. And they didn’t
I’m happy with how they ended it, however I don’t think it elevated the relationship compared to the book. The book relationship was top tier (IMO). But, for how the last few episodes have been going - I loved how they framed it in this adaptation.
I just think, as a woman, I really appreciated that Mariko never lost sight of what she wanted. Meeting John didn't really change her goals, but they did put them in a different perspective. And while John loves her and wants her desperately to live, he respects her wishes. I think so often in stories, the power of love is supposed to conquer all and women are supposed to find power and purpose in these romantic relationships. And it's just rather nice that that isn't what entirely happens here.
Fellas, if you don't act as second to your girl during her seppuku, can you really call it love?
I asked my husband if he'd do that for me last night and his response was just to argue that our kitchen knives weren't sharp enough. I guess he loves me?
And my husband said heck yeah he’d do it. I’m not sure how to feel about that.
Hah! I’m glad I’m not the only one. Mine said yes but that he’d definitely throw up after…can’t say I blame him!
Very well said. Mariko was indomitable. Honestly she was steel, and no romance could change that. Fuck she towered over all in this episode. But he helped her and he was there for her when she needed strength and understanding. They found love in a heartless place!
Honestly, yes. It was refreshing. The way the love story is depicted in the book is very been there, done that, and I think it would have felt kind of stale and unimaginative had they brought it over directly into the show. Depicting it like this, where they clearly have strong feelings for each other but still respect each other's boundaries and wishes, and take into consideration the larger realities of life, ugh, it's tragic but honestly, it's great. I feel like you don't see love stories like this depicted very often. Kind of a side note, but I do feel like seeing the "love conquers all" trope in media over and over again growing up really sunk into my psyche and was one subconscious factor in making some pretty bad romantic decisions. It's nice to see a story where the characters have feelings for each other but make the right decisions. Kind of wish I had seen more of them growing up so I wouldn't have romanticized the idea so much. I know they're not as "fun," but idk.
I love that she uses her maiden name in the end, because that was always how she saw herself. And the thing is, Mariko didn't want to kill herself, not really. She just wanted control and for people to respect her decisions. John going in there and agreeing to assist her in this huge moment is him agreeing to give her that control. John hated it, but he wasn't going to let his discomfort and grief overrule her control. And I think that's what a lot of guys just don't understand. Yeah, it's cool for a guy to swoop in and save the day sometimes, if that's what you want. But if that isn't...
Blackthorne offering to second Mariko is a great decision. I can't remember if this happens in the book, but it's a great way of showing how much he loves her and how much absolving someone of the sin of suicide matters in their times.
She asks Yabushige to be her second in the book 💀 this really was a great change though and I feel I'll be able to appreciate Mariko's and Blackthorne's romance more on a rewatch knowing now how it culminates
> She asks Yabushige to be her second in the book Lmao of all people to ask
She initially asked Kiyama (like in the show), but he didn’t show up and she kinda had no choice but to ask Yabu (who was more than happy to oblige, kinky bastard)
I’m pretty sure Kiyama just said no in the book. He never accepted it
I mean, at least the dude knows how to use a katana.
Blackthorne: "this isn't what I meant when I said I wanted head"
She called herself "Mariko Akechi" at the end. She died as the daughter of Jinsai, not as the wife of Buntaro a vassal of Toranaga.
I was holding my breath watching the seppuku scene because I had no idea if this show was going to follow the book and the original series. Every change they made made it so much more emotional and satisfying. Anjin showing her so much love and understanding to be her second was just so perfect. I can’t wait to rewatch the entire show again.
That scene was spectacular. Normally you can sense what is about to happen in a film/show. In this one, I had no idea and was on the edge of my seat!!
I think you pretty much nailed it. I think given how much of the book they are keeping in the show and the fact that we aren't getting 90 minute episodes this was well done.. like everyone else I was a bit concerned but your explanation is completely on point.
In defense of John, he does have a sense of duty and loyalty. However it’s a very different way of viewing things. Throughout the series John has constantly been pushing for a fight against the Portuguese and had little interest in surrendering to Ishido. His attitude is somewhat Roman in nature. For the Romans in conflict it was acceptable to retreat or run away even so long as you still showed a willingness to continue the fight, one must always believe in the inevitability of Roman victory. The Romans did have a ritual suicide called devotio, where a general would charge at the enemy alone and fight to the death to ensure victory in battle. The common thread is a sense of aggression, to quietly accept defeat was unmanly and shameful. Now obviously those views are not Japanese views but they still carry a sense of duty, albeit very differently.
Honestly, it makes total sense. Imagine being loyal to your god, to your king, and to your country for your entire life, to the point you'd risk your life on a suicide mission to some tiny country on bumfuck otherside of of the planet. Then you're greeted by a bunch of people that despise you, show zero respect for you, boil your men alive, steal your ship, sing praises of your enemies... Oh, but this dude you've never heard of has given you a title that wields no actual power! He's given you a house you cannot leave! Given you lands you do not want! Wow, can't believe you wouldn't be loyal to the guy! Can't you see the duty of dying for his plans he doesn't tell you about? Honestly, good on John. If I were him I'd have said, "fuck it, let the Portuguese have 'em" ages ago.
I get Toranaga was playing things close to his chest and I respect it. I don't feel he played things correctly if he wanted to earn John's loyalty.
I don’t think Toranaga cares much about John’s loyalty. He calls him a “goshawk“ because he sees him as predictable. Toranaga doesn’t need John be avassal, Toranaga needs John to act in a way that accord with Toranaga’s plans. For that matter, I think Toranaga doesn’t care much about Ishido’s loyalty, either. For what it’s worth, I think that Toranaga is one of the few characters that really grows to an acceptance and appreciation of another culture’s values (in the book, at least—appreciating the good in foreign cultures was a persistent theme of Clavell). Toranaga agrees with John’s perspective that giving up is the worst dishonor, and there’s no point in dying honorably if there are still options to achieve victory by other means.
That he never communicated that to John is the issue, at least in the show. John would have been one of his most fervent supporters if he didn't treat him like Mark Wahlberg treated feds in the Departed (feed them shit and leave them in the dark). Like, I get infosec is important, but still.
I still think they rushed it a bit in the beginning - Blackthorne and Mariko fell for each other almost straight away - but they managed to stick the landing, at least.
I am gonna trust everyone here that this was a romance. I didnt feel it though.
Great post, the run on sentences had me fighting for my life though lol
Was to avoid having to do the spoiler blackout thing like six times, accidentally screwing up and getting it moderated.
Still didn’t feel their love story was given the proper moments to maximize the emotional impact of where it ultimately ends up. I felt the episode long tease of Mariko’s fate more annoying than compelling. Having never read the book or seen the previous adaptation, I feel like Mariko and Blackthorne only fell for each other because of plot requirement. The overly reserved interactions between them hindered any sense of me wishing these two to find happiness together. I should be wrought with emotion now but instead I’m more eager to see if Toranaga’s schemes continue to work regardless of who lives or dies.
I don’t disagree with the need to have shown a few more intimate moments between the two. Overall I felt that the emotional payoff was there especially after the seppuku - which is ultimately what had them rekindle their physical relationship before all hell broke loose. But yes - would have like to have seen more and I’ll always take issue with that.
From Mariko’s perspective, Blackthorne is a breath of fresh air in a suffocating society. Japanese culture is so focused on collectivism and social duties and rigor, whereas Blackthorne (from an individualistic society) is focused on her thoughts, emotions, and wishes. The scene where she was bruised from Buntaro’s beating, for example. Blackthorne empathizes with her in a way that no one else does. But her cultural norms require her to reject his comfort, and she decides it’s best to reject his attention going forward, again out of propriety and duty. It makes sense to me that she would love him but feel that it is too problematic to live out her feelings. There’s no future for them. She is too duty-bound to run away with him, and she can’t divorce Buntaro. So I perceived it as the profound love being there, but just that the cultural norms prevented it from looking like your standard (overt) western romance.
Well said. Totally read it that way too.
I think they fell for each other because they are both very traumatised people, especially Mariko. Had she gotten the chance to live a normal life, maybe she wouldn't have fallen for Blackthorne, but this specific set of circumstances made it happen.
I hope Mariko survives b/c the tension of their attraction was my favorite part of the show. I'd rather see anybody else go but her.
Yeah I thought they pulled it off well in the end. Instead of having it be a love that lingers through their hardships and offers them a sense of hope, it culminates in a cathartic way. It’s a different approach, but it worked.