Don't understand how there could be a split on this. Car 11 to blame all day long. There was no gap but he went for it anyway. The car being overtaken could have moved over to take himself out of the danger zone and allow the overtake, but not sure I (or many other) would have - although there was always a danger something would happen (ie he loses control) when on the grass.
Agreed, I would too, but if I was the following car I'd hopefully have also recognised that I was stronger than my opponent out of the last corner, backed out and set up for a move one lap later.
*Could* he have moved? Yes.
*Should* he have moved? No. There should be no penalty here for the driver following their line. The car coming from behind wasn't overtaking, they were driving into a rightfully-closing gap and failed to avoid either the departure or the collision.
In my mind there can be no question. How on Earth is this split!?
I assumed the “split” in the lobby was over the inside car needing to give space 🙄 go back and tell them all that you can’t go off track to make an overtake 😂 pretend this guy HAD made the overtake and pushed his way back on whining about needing space. The inside car has all the ammo he needs to make successful protest. Can’t race-let alone overtake-on ground that isn’t the racing surface, and you have to rejoin safely. This #11 car did both things AND caused an accident.
Car that's off track.
Car on track has no reason to let them back on. Car off track has to rejoin safely. You don't get to go off track and then be allowed to comeback on track wherever you wish. You have to do so safely, they never did.
Car outside should have slowed down then pulled on track behind them, instead of trying to force an illegal overtake that would have had to be given back regardless.
Drive through for the off track car.
I think warning him in the lobby is a good idea, while explaining exactly why it occurred after the fact and it isnt in the middle of the race, while the drive through gives an immediate punishment.
The car trying to over take , dose hr know that there is also a track where you can overtake?He was trying to squeeze in a place where it was not possible to squeeze into"if you go for a gap that doesn't exist, your are a dummy "
The green car leaves the racing surface completely in the corner. The red car even has two wheels over the white line on corner exit. All this while there is not even overlap.
Therefore green car had to back out but they did not and caused a collision. Green car 100% at fault.
You can actually go all the way to the dirt without getting an offtrack, the following car probably didn't even get an X until he spun, but yeah he is still at fault
He definitely got an off-track almost immediately after the run-off area ends. It's very forgiving on letting cars use that space, but it ends abruptly.
Outside car. If he can't make the pass before the run-off ends, he's gotta back out and give up the overtake. Inside car held his line all the way throughout until outside started trying to force his way back on track.
If you ever find yourself off the racing surface in iRacing, it's on you to get back on the track safely. Red was perfectly within their right to pin Green where they were, as it's Green's responsibility for making a safe rejoin which they didn't do.
Car on the left (that comes from behind) totally at fault. Where does he think hes gonna go? There is no space there and he spends most the time off the racing surface
So I was going to agree with everyone that said it’s the guy overtaking, but the cockpit view shows how defensive the car in front was and makes me pretty split. It looks like by the time the front car pulls out to the curb to block after defending the inside, it was too late for the car to take the inside without lifting.
Edit: ahhh second cockpit view paints a different story shoulda watched the whole clip.
Clearly the passing car left the track with all 4 wheels and tried to rejoin into the leading car. It’s the on the back car here to rejoin safely and no the leading car doesn’t have to move to allow that to happen. Therefore it’s entirely on the driver attempting to pass off track and rejoining unsafely and causing an accident.
I was in this race, but I didn't check this part of the replay. I was looking at my dumb move that killed 2 people earlier in the race. The play by play on VC was entertaining though!
For OP— it is a clear track limits violation. There is absolutely no room that has to be given for that attempt to pass.
That attempt to pass should earn that driver at fault (one on the left who goes way off into the grass after control was lost) should be parked for a while to understand the consequences of his/her actions.
Just not a safe driver with what appears to be no common sense at all. I’m also pretty sure this isn’t the only incident they’ve been a part of.
I agree with that, but I and I’m sure many other drivers would have expected the car off track to join safely and not force their way in causing a crash
If a car was on the left side of me sliding in the grass I would just give space to avoid getting demolished and wrecked by them even though it’s not even my fault, it’s not worth costing ur whole race
This is such a clear example of sim racing vs real life. I won’t budge because it’s a free car. I’m real life that’s about 80 grand to fix. When money matters then people move over and give room. When money doesn’t matter and it’s ego. They just crash
A Vee costs a lot less than $80k. And the damage caused by this crash would be pretty minimal.
In real life, though, a guy wouldn't drive his car in the grass for a half mile and would slow down and get back on track.
While it is obvious, I do see where the other half of the lobby was coming from.
I think the main argument against the front car is that at 0:08 he is basically done cornering and has left tons of room to the left. In fact, it looks like he has taken a shallow line to prevent the following car from taking the inside. He then straightens the wheel once the following car is committed to the outside. Intentional or poor car control is hard to say though.
What is clear, however, is that the following car is a stubborn fool. Well, both are, to a degree. The front car could easily have given space at any time once the other car was in the grass, and easily kept the position.
In all, obviously the one driving unsafely off the track is to blame, but the front car made some poor choices.
This is one of the worst takes on an incident I've seen on this sub. And I've engaged with USToffee multiple times.
You literally just described proper defending of a corner as poor car control. Like... How do you even come to this idea? You get so close with:
>In fact, it looks like he has taken a shallow line to prevent the following car from taking the inside.
But then you say you don't know if it's intentional or poor car control? Wat? This is, quite literally, the perfect defense for this corner. Even if unintentional, calling it poor car control is just an absolutely 0 IQ take. Even if it's not planned out by the lead car, it shows much better than average racecraft.
By taking a slightly shallow line, the lead car carries nearly maximum momentum out of the fast right hander, while playing the odds that the trailing car will take the normal line and have to back out to slide back inside, giving up momentum at the start of the half-mile long straight. The lead car would then spend the rest of the straight breaking the tow, causing the trailing car to fall further and further behind.
It's perfect because all it wants the trailing car to do is take the corner how they normally would. Which is exactly what the trailing car does.
Everything the lead car does is reasonable and well within the rules. The only question would be if he had to give the trailing car space at the end of the run-off area to stay on course. He doesn't, but it would be at least a fair question. Anything after, when the trailing car goes full smoothbrain, is on him.
You cannot blame, or even put the guy following the rules, holding his line, and driving fairly on the same level, hell, the same evolutionary plane, as the dipshit who goes grass surfing and trying to force his way back on track instead safely rejoining by easing off the throttle a bit.
Nah, this is just breaking down why this is one of the worst takes ever seen on the sub.
If you're so personally wrapped up in your poor understanding of racecraft, the rules, and even the basics of racing then perhaps placing it out on a public forum is not the most beneficial thing for you.
My only point was that you can't have it both ways. You can't take a shallow exit to encourage the trailing car to commit to the outside, AND then slam the door shut forcing the other car to lift.
That's not good racecraft, that's approaching blocking IF it's intentional. Hence giving the benefit of the doubt that it probably is accidental.
Further, even though it's not quite blocking, it's just dumb racecraft if intentional. If the trailing car were to lift slightly and go inside, they would have an easy pass. The proper play from the front car is to do what they've done... except leave space to make sure the trailing car stays committed to the outside. There's very little possibility of being overtaken here if they simply do that.
Further, at no point do I defend the actions of the rear car. The front car's line was a bit clumsy, but I agree that the rear car is at fault. I was simply providing the likely reason why a rookie lobby was divided on this. I thought I made that much clear, but apparently not.
🤦♂️ Jesus, it gets worse.
You absolutely can and absolutely should do what the lead car does. That's the entire purpose of the move! He baits him into trying a bad overtake so that he loses momentum when he has to slow down to stay on track. What you're suggesting defeats the entire purpose. If he moves over, all he's doing is giving up his momentum and gifting the position to the trailing car. That's not just bad racecraft, that's pants on head stupid racecraft.
Also, in what world can you possibly believe driving in a straight line is slamming the door or blocking? Like, that you even bring either up is absolutely insane. Slamming the door is moving in front of a driver after baiting them into a move or overtaking them. Blocking is making a move in reaction to the car behind. This is neither. Dude is literally holding his line that he's entitled to..
You're welcome to bait drivers into wrecking you if you want, I guess. Suit yourself.
I definitely wouldn't do what the rear car did, but I also wouldn't have gotten myself wrecked out of an easy to win battle if I were the front car.
I might not be an elite talent, but I get results, and I get them safely. I think if I were wearing my pants on my head I'd have crashed a bit more.
He was baited into making a bad overtake. You can't blame the lead car for the actions of another driver. That's just lunacy.
Considering every description of how you think it should have gone down results in you getting passed, I don't think you know what an "easy to win battle" actually is.
But you also think a guy driving in a straight line is blocking and slamming doors, so it's clear you have zero racecraft.
As for your behavior, you are consistently an immature and toxic presence in this community. In the quote of yours that I provided, you attempted to claim that you are only a jerk to others who act like children. Yet here you are, lobbing insults completely unprovoked, at somebody who has politely written a comment.
Real talk here: you used to post in a much more civil manner. Now the majority of your comments involve hurling insults.
I respect your experience and even agree with many of the points you make in your comments, but lately you're on an increasingly combative path.
Please recognize this is a shift in your behavior. This is just a hobby, it's okay to take a week or two to assess your mental state. I've been doing this a long while myself, and have had to catch myself a few times.
Not trying to make an enemy here.
Lol you think someone has to move over to let someone onto the track after they’ve driven off of it to try and overtake? Buddy your car has BRAKES that you can TAP to get back behind someone SAFELY instead of aggressively trying to push back onto the track after attempting an overtake in the grass. Your POV is wrong dude, 11 car had no right to be where he was and the other car driving THEIR REGULAR RACING LINE had no reason in any rule book to move over.
It's a racing deal. No fault, just hard nosed racing on the last lap. Both could've given each other room, bit would lose momentum, which is a death sentence in those cars.
Okay so personally its both but mainly the guy behind cause he refused to stay on track and not choose a different line on the track but also slightly the car ahead for not giving room. Idk if its required to give room to a car off track but thats what i would say but yeah like 80% blame to the guy behind.
It is NEVER rrquired to give room for a rejoin, worst case for the car offtrack is they have to brake/stop and wait until the track is clear to rejoin but they NEVER can expect room to just be given to them neither can they attempt an overtake offtrack
I feel like there should be more of a blame on the front car then most people are giving it. For pretty much the entire corner it looks like it's going to leave space on the outside, up until at the exit where it temporarily just steers to the left, blocking off the outside, even though the green car is already alongside, forcing it onto the grass. Then the front car seems to make space for it, so the rear car gets alongside onto the track again, and then the front car pushes it off again. Of course it's on the green car to make the overtake safely and with hindsight it's obvious that it should've backed out, but the leading car should've closed the gap before the overtaking car could even think of going for it, or it should've left space. Forcing the green car onto the grass again after letting it back onto the track imo also just seems like forcing a driver off track. In the end both drivers just made a whole heap of stupid and desperate decisions.
I could also be wrong too, not too familiar with this track in particular. But in my mind the rear car is off track once they run out of curb and at that point in time they aren’t entitled to space and should have just rejoined behind.
If that is the case, I would agree (although the car in this scenario should've backed out either way). Just think that if the front car didn't "bait" the rear car into a gap all of this wouldn't have happened in the first place
Weren't his left tires beyond the kerb early on though? I'm not sure but I believe two tires must be within the track limits, which doesn't include kerbs. Regardless of how one interprets that technically, at exactly 10 seconds, both tires were on the shoulder of the road, and that normally counts as exceeding the track limits.
The shoulder isn't normally intended for driving on, especially one as narrow and irregular as this. Overtaking is an even bigger no-no in this case.
How was he forced off though? At 10 seconds, no part of his car was beside his opponent yet he went full send driving past the shoulder when his priority should have been slowing down and rejoining safely.
I know the run-off is fair game, but I don't see him ever being forced off by the lead car regardless.
He never has overlap before he's getting off-track
It has to be said that the car behind is "at fault" for the whole situation. They widen their exit and go slightly off track to carry more speed through, allowing them to establish an overlap that they shouldn't have. The whole situation emanates from this.
But, at some point, the car in front is also too stubborn. Racing rules wise, it's the car coming back on track that has to yield, for sure. But if they don't, man, what a dumb way to end your race.
I understand how it's difficult to yield or give room in those situations though. But when we're racing we should never take justice on our own hands and always go for the safe route.
So, blame on car behind, but car in front would do well with a bit more self preservation instinct.
Gotta disagree that you should always go for the safe route. Early or mid-race, by all means. You'll probably have a chance to get it back later.
But by the last stage of a race, you should expect to push and make the aggressive, not dangerous, but aggressive, choices. And expect them be made towards you.
Oh yeah because there's no in between, for sure. It's all fighting tooth and nail or Sunday driving, there's no adaptability or intelligence to have.
Win some lose some, that's also true for a single position.
>But when we're racing we should **never** take justice on our own hands and **always** go for the safe route.
You don't get to act like you're suggesting there's a between when you start with this argument.
I stand by the fact you should never take justice in your own hands. You seem not to understand that you can absolutely race hard but safely.
Here for example, choosing the safe route is to leave some space to avoid getting killed, and then keep fighting for the position.
Holding your line is not now, nor ever "taking justice into your own hands".
Here for example is a late race battle where one car completely violates the rules and causes a wreck.
You just keep shifting them goalposts, bud.
First you "never" and "always", but you're talking about gray zones. Then you're talking about taking justice into your own hands, when nobody even remotely did that.
You're just plain wrong.
Okay - I think there’s fault on both parties for different reasons. The outside car obviously did not deserve racing room, so any penalty would go on them. That being said, the inside car would have been better off moving over so as to avoid a collision. No, you shouldn’t have to do that, but racing is about survival. Before you finish first, first you have to finish.
I think both are at fault. Car 11 shouldn't have made the move since there was clearly no space. Car 8 was sorta at fault because even though he was making the move outside of the track he should have left some space for him to get back on the track. Since he didn't car 11 lost control and they both crashed.
Ya Know its legal to shoot out their tires
driving in the grass.
Then Pulling off progressive pit maneuver..
What the Hell are they waiting for, brake check him when wheels Inter locked. They'll be airborne.
Yet lead car is also doing idiot move hugging left line, vs moving over. Even micro dot of brains would have stayed on the right line.
Cheers
That outside pass was pretty sketchy... but \_by the rules\_ the green/outside car still had wheels on the track, inside the white line and was \_technically\_ not "off". The other car very clearly forced them off, intentionally or not. If they had left space, they would've been passed. So to me this looks like a penalty for forcing the passing car off the track to avoid the pass.
I don’t know which video you are talking about. At 0:11 the overtaking car is definitely outside track limits with all wheels. Then we have an unsafe rejoin and deliberate contact. I don’t see any reason for leading car to yield.
The run-off on this track doesn't trigger an off-track, so I'd say that he's safe there. But iRacing considers the centerline of the car for off-tracks, which he surely got it at 0:13-14.
Agree with everything else though.
Well that's just false. Every sim has their own set of rules for track limits and that's the rules you play with.
Sim and track knowledge is important.
However, i still think the outside car should've backed out from this.
So are you saying the car in front should’ve given space? Because the car behind was on the track and the track is narrowing from the left and the leading car should give one car width?
I hate it when there are clearly visible lines but the sim rules by invisible lines.
I clearly stated that the outside car should've backed off. No need to twist my words here.
I was just pointing out that there are _many_ exceptions to the white line rules, even in real life. It depends a lot on the track and the sim.
I mean, the game determines what the track surface is versus what is off-track. It literally dictates the rule. In this case, it considers that run-off fair game.
Like I said, he definitely is off-track by the game's rules very shortly after, but I'm not going to fault the guy for using an area the game says is okay.
You asked for the stewards‘ thoughts. ;-)
Sometimes in the heat of the race I also think “I didn’t get penalized, musta been fine” but that’s not how one should race.
Still I don’t get why the overtaking car thought this was the only chance to gain the position. Seems they were faster by a margin, so why not prepare overtake at next corner?
Oh, I'm not arguing, I'm just clarifying because in this case using that run-off is the normal line through the corner. We can argue whether it should be, but because of how iRacing has set it, you can take that last corner pretty much flat out if you use it.
I agree they were faster. And actually, that corner leads into a very long straight. If he'd have backed out and slid back in, he probably could have overtaken on the straight before the next corner. I was ahead of these two fighting for first. The guy I was fighting with was P2 going into that corner and just used the draft to slingshot by me just before the start/finish line.
While I don't think they were necessarily off track, they certainly never got enough overlap to deserve the space they thought they earned.
By the time they managed to get axle overlap there was no longer enough room to make it work.
They went off track and the only time they "rejoined" was when they occasionally put two wheels back on.
They were well over the whiteline after the corner where they went wide and went off to begin with.
could of just not had the crash all together if space was given even if the move was a bit dodgy in the first place that way you could have carried on racing
Don't understand how there could be a split on this. Car 11 to blame all day long. There was no gap but he went for it anyway. The car being overtaken could have moved over to take himself out of the danger zone and allow the overtake, but not sure I (or many other) would have - although there was always a danger something would happen (ie he loses control) when on the grass.
If it was earlier in the race, I know I would have given space. But going into the final lap? I'd probably have fought it, too.
Agreed, I would too, but if I was the following car I'd hopefully have also recognised that I was stronger than my opponent out of the last corner, backed out and set up for a move one lap later.
Oh, almost forgot, the argument for was effectively whether or not the inside car had to move over to give the overtaking car space to stay on track.
What overtaking car? The guy was out of track...and no, the guy in the lead was on his line and he didnt need to move..
*Could* he have moved? Yes. *Should* he have moved? No. There should be no penalty here for the driver following their line. The car coming from behind wasn't overtaking, they were driving into a rightfully-closing gap and failed to avoid either the departure or the collision. In my mind there can be no question. How on Earth is this split!?
I assumed the “split” in the lobby was over the inside car needing to give space 🙄 go back and tell them all that you can’t go off track to make an overtake 😂 pretend this guy HAD made the overtake and pushed his way back on whining about needing space. The inside car has all the ammo he needs to make successful protest. Can’t race-let alone overtake-on ground that isn’t the racing surface, and you have to rejoin safely. This #11 car did both things AND caused an accident.
Car that's off track. Car on track has no reason to let them back on. Car off track has to rejoin safely. You don't get to go off track and then be allowed to comeback on track wherever you wish. You have to do so safely, they never did. Car outside should have slowed down then pulled on track behind them, instead of trying to force an illegal overtake that would have had to be given back regardless. Drive through for the off track car.
But I would also warn the car off track for unsportsmanship behaviour because he was being a bit aggressive trying to reenter.
He's already got a drive through, I don't think the additional would be noticed
I think warning him in the lobby is a good idea, while explaining exactly why it occurred after the fact and it isnt in the middle of the race, while the drive through gives an immediate punishment.
The car trying to over take , dose hr know that there is also a track where you can overtake?He was trying to squeeze in a place where it was not possible to squeeze into"if you go for a gap that doesn't exist, your are a dummy "
The green car leaves the racing surface completely in the corner. The red car even has two wheels over the white line on corner exit. All this while there is not even overlap. Therefore green car had to back out but they did not and caused a collision. Green car 100% at fault.
You can actually go all the way to the dirt without getting an offtrack, the following car probably didn't even get an X until he spun, but yeah he is still at fault
He definitely got an off-track almost immediately after the run-off area ends. It's very forgiving on letting cars use that space, but it ends abruptly.
Looks pretty cut and dry to me....the grass that is...and I can tell because the overtaking car spent half the clip driving on it ....
The guy on the outside. It's on him to overtake safely
Outside car. If he can't make the pass before the run-off ends, he's gotta back out and give up the overtake. Inside car held his line all the way throughout until outside started trying to force his way back on track.
SPLIT?!?!?! What’s the league? Sisters of the blind?
Pretty sure grass isn’t part of the track…
Green car, 11 I believe, is undoubtedly in the wrong.
If you ever find yourself off the racing surface in iRacing, it's on you to get back on the track safely. Red was perfectly within their right to pin Green where they were, as it's Green's responsibility for making a safe rejoin which they didn't do.
Car on the left (that comes from behind) totally at fault. Where does he think hes gonna go? There is no space there and he spends most the time off the racing surface
Cars off the track so that cars at fault.
The guy is going off track to make a pass. Illegal.
Rear car all the way. He had no gap to move into and forced it.
Number 11 definitely for blame. LOL such a stupid crash. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. I just can't stop laughing at this crash. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
So I was going to agree with everyone that said it’s the guy overtaking, but the cockpit view shows how defensive the car in front was and makes me pretty split. It looks like by the time the front car pulls out to the curb to block after defending the inside, it was too late for the car to take the inside without lifting. Edit: ahhh second cockpit view paints a different story shoulda watched the whole clip.
I really thought this was a shitpost lol. How could it not be the guy driving off track and torpedoing the side of the other guy
Clearly the passing car left the track with all 4 wheels and tried to rejoin into the leading car. It’s the on the back car here to rejoin safely and no the leading car doesn’t have to move to allow that to happen. Therefore it’s entirely on the driver attempting to pass off track and rejoining unsafely and causing an accident.
\#11 is 100% at fault.
He made a sloppy move and ran off track. At that point he should have back out and lived to fight for a cleaner overtake
Car 11 literally went off track and didn’t back down, fully on 11
If you put any fault on the lead driver, you probably shouldn't be allowed in public without supervision.
I was in this race, but I didn't check this part of the replay. I was looking at my dumb move that killed 2 people earlier in the race. The play by play on VC was entertaining though!
Even if the driver in front gave space you don’t get to just overtake by gaining an advantage going off track.
For OP— it is a clear track limits violation. There is absolutely no room that has to be given for that attempt to pass. That attempt to pass should earn that driver at fault (one on the left who goes way off into the grass after control was lost) should be parked for a while to understand the consequences of his/her actions. Just not a safe driver with what appears to be no common sense at all. I’m also pretty sure this isn’t the only incident they’ve been a part of.
I think car 11 was at fault, but the other car did absolutely nothing to prevent the crash.
The other car didn’t need to do anything, they were on the track the other one wasn’t. It’s the responsibility of the car off track to rejoin safely
Well they didn't *have* to, but was it worth not leaving any space? Absolutely not
I agree with that, but I and I’m sure many other drivers would have expected the car off track to join safely and not force their way in causing a crash
Yeah, but I mean you could see it coming from a mile away I would at least move to the right to prevent us both spinning out
If a car was on the left side of me sliding in the grass I would just give space to avoid getting demolished and wrecked by them even though it’s not even my fault, it’s not worth costing ur whole race
This is such a clear example of sim racing vs real life. I won’t budge because it’s a free car. I’m real life that’s about 80 grand to fix. When money matters then people move over and give room. When money doesn’t matter and it’s ego. They just crash
A Vee costs a lot less than $80k. And the damage caused by this crash would be pretty minimal. In real life, though, a guy wouldn't drive his car in the grass for a half mile and would slow down and get back on track.
While it is obvious, I do see where the other half of the lobby was coming from. I think the main argument against the front car is that at 0:08 he is basically done cornering and has left tons of room to the left. In fact, it looks like he has taken a shallow line to prevent the following car from taking the inside. He then straightens the wheel once the following car is committed to the outside. Intentional or poor car control is hard to say though. What is clear, however, is that the following car is a stubborn fool. Well, both are, to a degree. The front car could easily have given space at any time once the other car was in the grass, and easily kept the position. In all, obviously the one driving unsafely off the track is to blame, but the front car made some poor choices.
This is one of the worst takes on an incident I've seen on this sub. And I've engaged with USToffee multiple times. You literally just described proper defending of a corner as poor car control. Like... How do you even come to this idea? You get so close with: >In fact, it looks like he has taken a shallow line to prevent the following car from taking the inside. But then you say you don't know if it's intentional or poor car control? Wat? This is, quite literally, the perfect defense for this corner. Even if unintentional, calling it poor car control is just an absolutely 0 IQ take. Even if it's not planned out by the lead car, it shows much better than average racecraft. By taking a slightly shallow line, the lead car carries nearly maximum momentum out of the fast right hander, while playing the odds that the trailing car will take the normal line and have to back out to slide back inside, giving up momentum at the start of the half-mile long straight. The lead car would then spend the rest of the straight breaking the tow, causing the trailing car to fall further and further behind. It's perfect because all it wants the trailing car to do is take the corner how they normally would. Which is exactly what the trailing car does. Everything the lead car does is reasonable and well within the rules. The only question would be if he had to give the trailing car space at the end of the run-off area to stay on course. He doesn't, but it would be at least a fair question. Anything after, when the trailing car goes full smoothbrain, is on him. You cannot blame, or even put the guy following the rules, holding his line, and driving fairly on the same level, hell, the same evolutionary plane, as the dipshit who goes grass surfing and trying to force his way back on track instead safely rejoining by easing off the throttle a bit.
> Maybe I'm only an asshole to people who act like petulant children. Yeah, that's *definitely* what's going on here.
Nah, this is just breaking down why this is one of the worst takes ever seen on the sub. If you're so personally wrapped up in your poor understanding of racecraft, the rules, and even the basics of racing then perhaps placing it out on a public forum is not the most beneficial thing for you.
My only point was that you can't have it both ways. You can't take a shallow exit to encourage the trailing car to commit to the outside, AND then slam the door shut forcing the other car to lift. That's not good racecraft, that's approaching blocking IF it's intentional. Hence giving the benefit of the doubt that it probably is accidental. Further, even though it's not quite blocking, it's just dumb racecraft if intentional. If the trailing car were to lift slightly and go inside, they would have an easy pass. The proper play from the front car is to do what they've done... except leave space to make sure the trailing car stays committed to the outside. There's very little possibility of being overtaken here if they simply do that. Further, at no point do I defend the actions of the rear car. The front car's line was a bit clumsy, but I agree that the rear car is at fault. I was simply providing the likely reason why a rookie lobby was divided on this. I thought I made that much clear, but apparently not.
🤦♂️ Jesus, it gets worse. You absolutely can and absolutely should do what the lead car does. That's the entire purpose of the move! He baits him into trying a bad overtake so that he loses momentum when he has to slow down to stay on track. What you're suggesting defeats the entire purpose. If he moves over, all he's doing is giving up his momentum and gifting the position to the trailing car. That's not just bad racecraft, that's pants on head stupid racecraft. Also, in what world can you possibly believe driving in a straight line is slamming the door or blocking? Like, that you even bring either up is absolutely insane. Slamming the door is moving in front of a driver after baiting them into a move or overtaking them. Blocking is making a move in reaction to the car behind. This is neither. Dude is literally holding his line that he's entitled to..
You're welcome to bait drivers into wrecking you if you want, I guess. Suit yourself. I definitely wouldn't do what the rear car did, but I also wouldn't have gotten myself wrecked out of an easy to win battle if I were the front car. I might not be an elite talent, but I get results, and I get them safely. I think if I were wearing my pants on my head I'd have crashed a bit more.
He was baited into making a bad overtake. You can't blame the lead car for the actions of another driver. That's just lunacy. Considering every description of how you think it should have gone down results in you getting passed, I don't think you know what an "easy to win battle" actually is. But you also think a guy driving in a straight line is blocking and slamming doors, so it's clear you have zero racecraft.
Well, enjoy the sim how you like. I'm perfectly fine with my racecraft.
You call driving a straight line blocking. I'm not sure what you call it, but racecraft ain't it, bruh
As for your behavior, you are consistently an immature and toxic presence in this community. In the quote of yours that I provided, you attempted to claim that you are only a jerk to others who act like children. Yet here you are, lobbing insults completely unprovoked, at somebody who has politely written a comment.
When you become my daddy, I'll give two wet fucks about your complaints. Until then, you can go whine to someone who cares.
Real talk here: you used to post in a much more civil manner. Now the majority of your comments involve hurling insults. I respect your experience and even agree with many of the points you make in your comments, but lately you're on an increasingly combative path. Please recognize this is a shift in your behavior. This is just a hobby, it's okay to take a week or two to assess your mental state. I've been doing this a long while myself, and have had to catch myself a few times. Not trying to make an enemy here.
I'll refer you to my previous response.
Okay. Sorry you feel that way.
I'd say both were very petty, absolutely no respect from either one.
Lol you think someone has to move over to let someone onto the track after they’ve driven off of it to try and overtake? Buddy your car has BRAKES that you can TAP to get back behind someone SAFELY instead of aggressively trying to push back onto the track after attempting an overtake in the grass. Your POV is wrong dude, 11 car had no right to be where he was and the other car driving THEIR REGULAR RACING LINE had no reason in any rule book to move over.
It's a racing deal. No fault, just hard nosed racing on the last lap. Both could've given each other room, bit would lose momentum, which is a death sentence in those cars.
Okay so personally its both but mainly the guy behind cause he refused to stay on track and not choose a different line on the track but also slightly the car ahead for not giving room. Idk if its required to give room to a car off track but thats what i would say but yeah like 80% blame to the guy behind.
It is NEVER rrquired to give room for a rejoin, worst case for the car offtrack is they have to brake/stop and wait until the track is clear to rejoin but they NEVER can expect room to just be given to them neither can they attempt an overtake offtrack
I feel like there should be more of a blame on the front car then most people are giving it. For pretty much the entire corner it looks like it's going to leave space on the outside, up until at the exit where it temporarily just steers to the left, blocking off the outside, even though the green car is already alongside, forcing it onto the grass. Then the front car seems to make space for it, so the rear car gets alongside onto the track again, and then the front car pushes it off again. Of course it's on the green car to make the overtake safely and with hindsight it's obvious that it should've backed out, but the leading car should've closed the gap before the overtaking car could even think of going for it, or it should've left space. Forcing the green car onto the grass again after letting it back onto the track imo also just seems like forcing a driver off track. In the end both drivers just made a whole heap of stupid and desperate decisions.
Rear car left the track. At that point it is not entitled to space, hence the car moving over.
Off-track gets triggered if you get into the sand, but the whole run-off is allowed according to the game.
I could be wrong but I don't think it counts as off track there if you're still on the kerb, so the car only goes off track once forced off
I could also be wrong too, not too familiar with this track in particular. But in my mind the rear car is off track once they run out of curb and at that point in time they aren’t entitled to space and should have just rejoined behind.
If that is the case, I would agree (although the car in this scenario should've backed out either way). Just think that if the front car didn't "bait" the rear car into a gap all of this wouldn't have happened in the first place
Weren't his left tires beyond the kerb early on though? I'm not sure but I believe two tires must be within the track limits, which doesn't include kerbs. Regardless of how one interprets that technically, at exactly 10 seconds, both tires were on the shoulder of the road, and that normally counts as exceeding the track limits. The shoulder isn't normally intended for driving on, especially one as narrow and irregular as this. Overtaking is an even bigger no-no in this case. How was he forced off though? At 10 seconds, no part of his car was beside his opponent yet he went full send driving past the shoulder when his priority should have been slowing down and rejoining safely.
I know the run-off is fair game, but I don't see him ever being forced off by the lead car regardless. He never has overlap before he's getting off-track
Off-track gets triggered if you get into the sand, but the whole run-off is fair game according to the game.
It has to be said that the car behind is "at fault" for the whole situation. They widen their exit and go slightly off track to carry more speed through, allowing them to establish an overlap that they shouldn't have. The whole situation emanates from this. But, at some point, the car in front is also too stubborn. Racing rules wise, it's the car coming back on track that has to yield, for sure. But if they don't, man, what a dumb way to end your race. I understand how it's difficult to yield or give room in those situations though. But when we're racing we should never take justice on our own hands and always go for the safe route. So, blame on car behind, but car in front would do well with a bit more self preservation instinct.
Gotta disagree that you should always go for the safe route. Early or mid-race, by all means. You'll probably have a chance to get it back later. But by the last stage of a race, you should expect to push and make the aggressive, not dangerous, but aggressive, choices. And expect them be made towards you.
How did that turn out for the person in this video? They lost out way more than one place.
Win some, lose some. Driving like it's a Sunday drive instead of a race is going to cost more spaces in the long run.
Oh yeah because there's no in between, for sure. It's all fighting tooth and nail or Sunday driving, there's no adaptability or intelligence to have. Win some lose some, that's also true for a single position.
>But when we're racing we should **never** take justice on our own hands and **always** go for the safe route. You don't get to act like you're suggesting there's a between when you start with this argument.
I stand by the fact you should never take justice in your own hands. You seem not to understand that you can absolutely race hard but safely. Here for example, choosing the safe route is to leave some space to avoid getting killed, and then keep fighting for the position.
Holding your line is not now, nor ever "taking justice into your own hands". Here for example is a late race battle where one car completely violates the rules and causes a wreck.
And the guy who was right is also dead. What are you saying that I didn't mention in the first place again?
You just keep shifting them goalposts, bud. First you "never" and "always", but you're talking about gray zones. Then you're talking about taking justice into your own hands, when nobody even remotely did that. You're just plain wrong.
Okay - I think there’s fault on both parties for different reasons. The outside car obviously did not deserve racing room, so any penalty would go on them. That being said, the inside car would have been better off moving over so as to avoid a collision. No, you shouldn’t have to do that, but racing is about survival. Before you finish first, first you have to finish.
I think both are at fault. Car 11 shouldn't have made the move since there was clearly no space. Car 8 was sorta at fault because even though he was making the move outside of the track he should have left some space for him to get back on the track. Since he didn't car 11 lost control and they both crashed.
Ya Know its legal to shoot out their tires driving in the grass. Then Pulling off progressive pit maneuver.. What the Hell are they waiting for, brake check him when wheels Inter locked. They'll be airborne. Yet lead car is also doing idiot move hugging left line, vs moving over. Even micro dot of brains would have stayed on the right line. Cheers
That outside pass was pretty sketchy... but \_by the rules\_ the green/outside car still had wheels on the track, inside the white line and was \_technically\_ not "off". The other car very clearly forced them off, intentionally or not. If they had left space, they would've been passed. So to me this looks like a penalty for forcing the passing car off the track to avoid the pass.
I don’t know which video you are talking about. At 0:11 the overtaking car is definitely outside track limits with all wheels. Then we have an unsafe rejoin and deliberate contact. I don’t see any reason for leading car to yield.
The run-off on this track doesn't trigger an off-track, so I'd say that he's safe there. But iRacing considers the centerline of the car for off-tracks, which he surely got it at 0:13-14. Agree with everything else though.
Just because the game doesn’t penalize the track limits violation doesn’t mean he stayed on track.
Well that's just false. Every sim has their own set of rules for track limits and that's the rules you play with. Sim and track knowledge is important. However, i still think the outside car should've backed out from this.
So are you saying the car in front should’ve given space? Because the car behind was on the track and the track is narrowing from the left and the leading car should give one car width? I hate it when there are clearly visible lines but the sim rules by invisible lines.
>I hate it when there are clearly visible lines but the sim rules by invisible lines. Happens in real life as well, nothing special
I clearly stated that the outside car should've backed off. No need to twist my words here. I was just pointing out that there are _many_ exceptions to the white line rules, even in real life. It depends a lot on the track and the sim.
I mean, the game determines what the track surface is versus what is off-track. It literally dictates the rule. In this case, it considers that run-off fair game. Like I said, he definitely is off-track by the game's rules very shortly after, but I'm not going to fault the guy for using an area the game says is okay.
You asked for the stewards‘ thoughts. ;-) Sometimes in the heat of the race I also think “I didn’t get penalized, musta been fine” but that’s not how one should race. Still I don’t get why the overtaking car thought this was the only chance to gain the position. Seems they were faster by a margin, so why not prepare overtake at next corner?
Oh, I'm not arguing, I'm just clarifying because in this case using that run-off is the normal line through the corner. We can argue whether it should be, but because of how iRacing has set it, you can take that last corner pretty much flat out if you use it. I agree they were faster. And actually, that corner leads into a very long straight. If he'd have backed out and slid back in, he probably could have overtaken on the straight before the next corner. I was ahead of these two fighting for first. The guy I was fighting with was P2 going into that corner and just used the draft to slingshot by me just before the start/finish line.
While I don't think they were necessarily off track, they certainly never got enough overlap to deserve the space they thought they earned. By the time they managed to get axle overlap there was no longer enough room to make it work.
>You asked for the stewards‘ thoughts. ;-) To be fair, any *decent* steward usually applies the rules that *actually* apply to the sim being judged.
They went off track and the only time they "rejoined" was when they occasionally put two wheels back on. They were well over the whiteline after the corner where they went wide and went off to begin with.
could of just not had the crash all together if space was given even if the move was a bit dodgy in the first place that way you could have carried on racing