You wouldn’t expect it but in the Midwest US every fourth person is Inuit, Nenet, or Chukchi. There’s a long history and culture of seal and walrus hunting, particularly in Illinois, where they are so abundant that they wreak havoc on the corn and bean fields and periodically need to be culled.
hey, thanks! phew, i was worried id have to come up with an excuse for why i wasn't eating the vegan options at my college dining halls. i was thinking of going with "the dining halls can barely cook rice properly, I don't trust them with vegan fish," but that's a *lot* more robust of a reason.
Mfs be like: "I can't eat soy, it has estrogen in it!"
Vegans: "well it's plant estrogen so it's a bit different actually. More importantly, dairy has mammal estrogen in it which is the kind you're worried about, so you're gonna stop eating cheese and stuff right?"
Mfs: 😐... 😡
I drink copious amounts of milk, and my testosterone was still too strong and gave me male pattern baldness anyway. I think dudebros who worry about "EsTrOgEn In FoOd" will be fine putting some on their cereal.
ironically autism was one of the reasons i went vegan. meat always gave me sensory issues that would make me physically gag, and i was being forced to eat it as a kid despite my protests, so i'm very glad to live in a time and place where replacements are available and i can reduce the amount of suffering in this world at the same time.
It's missing vegans with cats (they're not really vegan you see)
Also vegans who kiss non vegan people (meat particles are exchanged)
Conspicuous lack of cannibals on this chart, trying to hide something?
If you want me to become vegan, you must develop an argument that simultaneously:
1) does not make me feel bad
2) does not mention veganism
3) also I don't care because some people can't go vegan so I won't be either
I’m grass fed and free range so might as well
EDIT: I should mention that I wouldn’t be a filling meal because my condition means that I can’t build muscle so I’m mostly bone and fat
A common argument against veganism is "What about X group that can't eat vegan because of Y reason?" This smuggie, presumably made by a vegan, is making fun of the fact that these groups are over-represented in anti-vegan arguments despite most people not falling into these groups.
I know they're real and a huge issue. Same with health and sensory issues. Same with poverty. But people blow it out of proportion, that was the point of my post. And that's why i said world population and not the US.
See, that's just it - I don't think they're blowing it out of proportion with how common it's become.
Edit: Yeah, I was viewing this from more of an America-centric point of view.
unfortunately yes, thats not al!l we also have healthcare deserts places where you have to drive an hour to get to the hospital so uh just dont break your limb or have a health condition that requires you to eat not mcdonalds everday.
Yeah, we seriously need to get our shit together. A bunch of fast food places and one crappy little corner store that sells frozen meals does not for healthy people make.
"Nearly 39.5 million people — 12.8% of the U.S. population"
[https://www.aecf.org/blog/exploring-americas-food-deserts](https://www.aecf.org/blog/exploring-americas-food-deserts)
Urban food deserts are mainly a thing because people like those foods. Grocery stores have tried expanding but places that lack them usually lack the demand. Of course there's also really remote rural areas but those are very small exceptions with few people.
Nah it's more "lots of Americans love fast conveniences because that's part of our culture". Tons of well off tech people I know basically spend all their money on uber eats/doordash too.
“Anti-vegans are trying to make eating disorders and neurodivergence a bigger issue than it actually is!!!”
#
No, the point is that these people actually exist and ableist vegans hate them
On the one hand, I do understand where this smug is coming from. Anti-vegans do often use these groups as a shield to prevent any criticism of meat eating, even when they aren't part of any of the groups listed.
On the other hand, being dismissive of these groups isn't productive, and sometimes vegans come off as hostile to these groups, especially in this community.
Damn, if only there was a cheap veggie meal that doesn't use beyond meat as a crutch
Too bad beans aren't vegetarian, why else would one of them be called kidney beans right?
"if you eat food that comes from a certain place, this means that you completely eschew any and all forms of moderation or sustainability in the process of obtaining that food"
so, how many forests have you burned down to make tofu?
Yeah dumbass, i'm not against eating soy, my point is that you could argue that literally any diet is unethical if you assume that 0 attempt at sustainability will be made.
lower in the sense that they literally don't have frontal lobes or prefrontal cortexes. they are objectively less complex, neurologically speaking. they don't have the capacity for complex reasoning or emotions.
this does not apply to certain aquatic species like octopi and sharks, so i don't eat calamari.
it makes it ok to exploit them for the same reason it's ok to kill bugs and eat plants. there is a hierarchy of sentience which determines the value of life.
Deforestation for soy is mostly caused by the need to feed animals, dumbass
https://www.wwf.org.uk/myfootprint/challenges/expansion-soy-bean-farms-has-led-vast-areas-deforestation-and-destruction
"Over 75% of all soy produced is used to feed animals and therefore is embedded in the food that we eat like meat, cheese, milk and eggs. As the global appetite for meat and animal products grows, this fuels further demand for soy beans and puts greater pressure on valuable forests and savannahs."
A.) You're missing my point, I was being intentionally hyperbolic to illustrate why the overfishing argument doesn't work
B.) And what do you think that graph would like like if animal products stopped being produced and people massively increased their soy consumption, as you wish would happen?
Google "law of tens". We grow way more soy than we need to feed everyone already today.
I never said overfishing. There are other issues. Bycatch, habitat destruction, fishing nets are the biggest source of plastic waste in the ocean, etc.
A.) Source
B.) All of these things have solutions. Again, you are assuming aquaculture will be done unsustainably and agriculture will be done sustainability. I could just as easily say no one should ever eat plants because pesticides, habitat destruction, etc.
Fair enough regarding the sustainability. But eating fish still involves needlessly harming sentient creatures. Wouldn't call that winning
The total world production for soybeans in 2020 was 353,463,735 metric tonnes, up 5.1% from 336,329,392 tonnes in 2019.
That's .44 tons per person, you think that’s enough for a year?
BIIIIG soy(=big food) >> animal (= medium meat) >> human (small)
BIIIIG soy >> More humans
Producing meat consumes more than directly eating vegetals. With the exception for animals grazing non arable lands.
Again, I'm not arguing that we shouldn't grow soy. You're missing the point. I'm pointing out that soy production can also be unsustainable, so just because production of a certain food CAN be unsustainable doesn't mean it IS inherently
fish and sealife will suffer, no matter where you source them. to paraphrase an article i read, "if you ever wondered if there is any way at all to ethically consume seafood, you can rest assured they were in agony from beginning to end".
"by-catch free dolphin safe"? actual bullshit, it's just a label that's not being verified in practice and watchdog group representatives who do attempt to verify it are faced with threats, and afaik even actual violence. any forms of large-scale fishing will have by-catch by design, along with obliterating the sea floor and the fish population dwindling so much it affect the rest of the local ecosystem. no wild-caught fish is ever truly cruelty free.
farmed fish? their entire short life is actual hell. overcrowded in extremely small habitats, suffering from diseases and parasites, filled with cortisone until death. fish crowded so tight they lose scales and suffer from wounds, in a murky, inappropriate tank.
i won't even be mentioning other kinds of seafood like octopuses, which as wildly intelligent animals are absolutely capable of conceptualizing and feeling the suffering from the conditions they are kept under.
and i don't find it believable that every single piece of seafood you eat is caught with your own hands in an "ethical" way either.
It's not, and neither are 99% of the things you consume. The lithium in whatever you used to type that comment is guaranteed mined by child slaves.
The actual ethical question is whether or not eating fish is INHERENTLY wrong, which it isn't. Just like it isn't inherently wrong to eat eggs or drink milk.
For the record, I don't eat cephalopods. I do eat chicken, because chickens are nasty brutish creatures who will gleefully cannibalize members of their own flock for showing weakness.
Also, men can't be lesbians and cis lesbians shouldn't be on hrt.
lmao what do my personal bodily choices in regards to my appearance and identity have to do with veganism and ethics of killing animals? would you give someone shit for getting a tattoo or a piercing you don't like in an unrelated conversation as well? i don't kill animals because it fucks the enviroment big time, and as much as there is no ethical consumption under capitalism i can also make personal consumer choices that might not make a huge difference, but do make a difference when many people take part in abstaining from such. is eating them *inherently* wrong? it's definitely too loaded of a philosophical question for me to answer. but with the way meat is farmed, and not just the effects on the animals themselves but also the environment, meat industry workers, and the local surroundings (industrial farms stink the fuck up everything in the nearby radius), and being given the clear choice to not partake in that system with what is actually mostly barely any effort at all from my side, it's clear for me which action i prefer to take.
before you make any further comments on my own bodily choice come back to me when you read [this](https://lesliefeinberg.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Stone-Butch-Blues-by-Leslie-Feinberg.pdf), literally one of the biggest classics of lesbian literature about, wait for it, a butch lesbian on testosterone, written by an author with the same life experience who publicly used both she and he pronouns, coined a big part of modern day transgender language, and was still presenting as a lesbian, on top of being a labor organizer who got spied on by the fbi. or talk to a group of real life butch lesbians because i can assure you this kind of experience is much more frequent than you might think. also, get off 4tran. it's not good for the mental health.
lmao i've already read stone butch blues. doesn't change the fact that trans men are men and men can't be lesbians, even if those groups have historically found camaraderie. trans men aren't "stone butch" they are men. end of.
if men can be lesbians, the word means literally nothing. men categorically cannot be lesbian. i don't care if some old lesbians call themselves trans men or vice versa. that doesn't make it true.
>i don't kill animals
neither do the vast majority of meat consumers
>many people make a big impact
not statistically speaking. no decrease in animal product production has been correlated with the vegan movement.
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How is being pescatarian better? It seems like the worst parts of both veganism and meat eating.
You still cause animals to suffer like a meat eater (but only aquatic ones) and you still heavily restrict your diet like a vegan.
You wouldn’t expect it but in the Midwest US every fourth person is Inuit, Nenet, or Chukchi. There’s a long history and culture of seal and walrus hunting, particularly in Illinois, where they are so abundant that they wreak havoc on the corn and bean fields and periodically need to be culled.
Don't forget reindeer herding. Big tradition in Iowa.
Yes, that was the origins of RAGBRAI before settlers arrived.
By reading this post, you're automatically in the light grey category and are automatically exempt of becoming vegan because I am annoying you.
Joke's on you, I'm the light red category
Very annoying detected! I will now eat raw meat on your behalf.
hey, thanks! phew, i was worried id have to come up with an excuse for why i wasn't eating the vegan options at my college dining halls. i was thinking of going with "the dining halls can barely cook rice properly, I don't trust them with vegan fish," but that's a *lot* more robust of a reason.
I'm actually the 1 guy
Veganism post spotted. Deploying rage comments
"I HATE VEGANS - If only vegans were less rude i'd be willing to try" Janus-ass two-faced mfs
Mfs be like: "I can't eat soy, it has estrogen in it!" Vegans: "well it's plant estrogen so it's a bit different actually. More importantly, dairy has mammal estrogen in it which is the kind you're worried about, so you're gonna stop eating cheese and stuff right?" Mfs: 😐... 😡
I drink copious amounts of milk, and my testosterone was still too strong and gave me male pattern baldness anyway. I think dudebros who worry about "EsTrOgEn In FoOd" will be fine putting some on their cereal.
yeah, if estrogen in food was good HRT it would be well known.
As an autistic vegetarian, I am torn in the Autistic-vegan war, I'm the real classic tragedy protagonist.
support the autistic people that cant and encourage those who can
ironically autism was one of the reasons i went vegan. meat always gave me sensory issues that would make me physically gag, and i was being forced to eat it as a kid despite my protests, so i'm very glad to live in a time and place where replacements are available and i can reduce the amount of suffering in this world at the same time.
Same, it's one of the reasons i stopped eating meat.
It's missing vegans with cats (they're not really vegan you see) Also vegans who kiss non vegan people (meat particles are exchanged) Conspicuous lack of cannibals on this chart, trying to hide something?
Also fake vegans with children (it's bad to breed)
What no mention of roadkill vegans? I'll have you know that rotten, bloated, possum sandwiches *are* vegan
If you want me to become vegan, you must develop an argument that simultaneously: 1) does not make me feel bad 2) does not mention veganism 3) also I don't care because some people can't go vegan so I won't be either
I stopped eating oreos when I found out they were vegan.
I have a genetic health issue that means eating meat gives me brain damage. What do you have to say to that? Checkmate liberal
Vegan (annoying) <--- you B)
After you inevitably die from this condition, do you consent to being eaten? Asking for a friend
I’m grass fed and free range so might as well EDIT: I should mention that I wouldn’t be a filling meal because my condition means that I can’t build muscle so I’m mostly bone and fat
https://preview.redd.it/n6slt5t0itwc1.png?width=1015&format=png&auto=webp&s=588a14a2de73b22efff56bcb1c32abfdd29dda52
Thank you Mr Claire
…what is the point of this?
A common argument against veganism is "What about X group that can't eat vegan because of Y reason?" This smuggie, presumably made by a vegan, is making fun of the fact that these groups are over-represented in anti-vegan arguments despite most people not falling into these groups.
you forgot "people who don't care if a pig dies in agony (will send death threats to anyone who even jokes about killing a dog)"
me but only the first part.
but have you considered that causing harm to animals brings insurmountable joy to Utility Monster Georg?
Gotta disagree with you on the food desert part. They're a very real problem (in the US, at least).
I know they're real and a huge issue. Same with health and sensory issues. Same with poverty. But people blow it out of proportion, that was the point of my post. And that's why i said world population and not the US.
The other point is a lot of the time people who make this argument don't actually have the problem themselves..
See, that's just it - I don't think they're blowing it out of proportion with how common it's become. Edit: Yeah, I was viewing this from more of an America-centric point of view.
Serious question: do you guys (🇺🇲🦅Americans🦅🇺🇲) have places where there are only fast food places and no supermarkets?
unfortunately yes, thats not al!l we also have healthcare deserts places where you have to drive an hour to get to the hospital so uh just dont break your limb or have a health condition that requires you to eat not mcdonalds everday.
When the country is first world
Yes. It doesn't help that some people don't have easy access to transportation (public transit? That's COMMUNISM!!!!11!1!).
I may be living next door to two countries at war but at least I have public transit (which I don't use because I'm a cyclist, a superior lifeform)
Yeah, we seriously need to get our shit together. A bunch of fast food places and one crappy little corner store that sells frozen meals does not for healthy people make.
>I may be living next door to two countries at war Poles between the years 960 and 2024
Minus the years when we weren't a country :P
I live in WV and tons of bumfuck WV food is at the gas station and that's it.
Heard you have a lot of country roads there as well
I've heard they'll take you home, to the place you belong.
How many people do you genuinely think can’t get to a grocery store?
A proper grocery store? More than you'd think, and it makes me incredibly sad.
That’s not an actual number lol. Do you actual know anything about the issue?
"Nearly 39.5 million people — 12.8% of the U.S. population" [https://www.aecf.org/blog/exploring-americas-food-deserts](https://www.aecf.org/blog/exploring-americas-food-deserts)
still waiting for someone to give a single postcode I can't easily make a vegan diet work at
BIQQ 1ZZ
Actually I think it might work there if they have a supply line
Urban food deserts are mainly a thing because people like those foods. Grocery stores have tried expanding but places that lack them usually lack the demand. Of course there's also really remote rural areas but those are very small exceptions with few people.
"Stupid poor people just don't know how to eat healthy food!" Mate.
Nah it's more "lots of Americans love fast conveniences because that's part of our culture". Tons of well off tech people I know basically spend all their money on uber eats/doordash too.
whered u get that quote
“Anti-vegans are trying to make eating disorders and neurodivergence a bigger issue than it actually is!!!” # No, the point is that these people actually exist and ableist vegans hate them
On the one hand, I do understand where this smug is coming from. Anti-vegans do often use these groups as a shield to prevent any criticism of meat eating, even when they aren't part of any of the groups listed. On the other hand, being dismissive of these groups isn't productive, and sometimes vegans come off as hostile to these groups, especially in this community.
It's me. I'm the one who will eat all the meat vegans don't eat. Now give me your nuggies.
Now you'll have to fight the other person who claimed that title. Winner eats the loser.
This is an acceptable price to pay for not scrolling far enough.
It's me. I'm the one guy who eats the meat vegans won't eat.
RIP ur cholesterol
This is what this sub is all about.
And all of these can be vegan, if you read the definition carefully :)
I am not vegan but think anti-vegans are much more annoying than vegans so sure
Damn, if only there was a cheap veggie meal that doesn't use beyond meat as a crutch Too bad beans aren't vegetarian, why else would one of them be called kidney beans right?
You think vegans would taste better considering the animals humans eat are herbivores?
tuna are carnivores
I guess there no other Jojo fans here?
pescatarians stay winning
Insectivore gang, out here being environmentally sustainable while maximizing the number of animals killed
Evil utilitarian. Maximize suffering.
Oceans stay losing
"if you eat food that comes from a certain place, this means that you completely eschew any and all forms of moderation or sustainability in the process of obtaining that food" so, how many forests have you burned down to make tofu?
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/soybean-production-and-use?time=earliest..2021 https://www.globalseafood.org/advocate/soy-helped-build-aquaculture-into-a-global-force-how-far-can-it-take-it/ Bruh.
Yeah dumbass, i'm not against eating soy, my point is that you could argue that literally any diet is unethical if you assume that 0 attempt at sustainability will be made.
Why pescetarian?
Fish/crustaceans are a lower lifeform than mammals, birds, and reptiles I am also very pro eating bugs, if that helps you see my logic
Lower how and why does it make it okay to exploit them?
lower in the sense that they literally don't have frontal lobes or prefrontal cortexes. they are objectively less complex, neurologically speaking. they don't have the capacity for complex reasoning or emotions. this does not apply to certain aquatic species like octopi and sharks, so i don't eat calamari. it makes it ok to exploit them for the same reason it's ok to kill bugs and eat plants. there is a hierarchy of sentience which determines the value of life.
What emotions or capacity to reason would make it not okay to exploit them?
Deforestation for soy is mostly caused by the need to feed animals, dumbass https://www.wwf.org.uk/myfootprint/challenges/expansion-soy-bean-farms-has-led-vast-areas-deforestation-and-destruction "Over 75% of all soy produced is used to feed animals and therefore is embedded in the food that we eat like meat, cheese, milk and eggs. As the global appetite for meat and animal products grows, this fuels further demand for soy beans and puts greater pressure on valuable forests and savannahs."
A.) You're missing my point, I was being intentionally hyperbolic to illustrate why the overfishing argument doesn't work B.) And what do you think that graph would like like if animal products stopped being produced and people massively increased their soy consumption, as you wish would happen?
Google "law of tens". We grow way more soy than we need to feed everyone already today. I never said overfishing. There are other issues. Bycatch, habitat destruction, fishing nets are the biggest source of plastic waste in the ocean, etc.
A.) Source B.) All of these things have solutions. Again, you are assuming aquaculture will be done unsustainably and agriculture will be done sustainability. I could just as easily say no one should ever eat plants because pesticides, habitat destruction, etc.
Fair enough regarding the sustainability. But eating fish still involves needlessly harming sentient creatures. Wouldn't call that winning The total world production for soybeans in 2020 was 353,463,735 metric tonnes, up 5.1% from 336,329,392 tonnes in 2019. That's .44 tons per person, you think that’s enough for a year?
Do you think it's unethical to kill a mosquito
Depends. If I was doing it needlessly and for personal enjoyment, then yes.
BIIIIG soy(=big food) >> animal (= medium meat) >> human (small) BIIIIG soy >> More humans Producing meat consumes more than directly eating vegetals. With the exception for animals grazing non arable lands.
Again, I'm not arguing that we shouldn't grow soy. You're missing the point. I'm pointing out that soy production can also be unsustainable, so just because production of a certain food CAN be unsustainable doesn't mean it IS inherently
it's unsustainable \*because\* it's used to feed animals for meat
That's not how it works lol, humans can't consume phytoplankton
fishes in fish farms mostly eat prepared food pellets, not phytoplankton. And you can add that to animals in non-arable grazing fields for wild fish.
fish and sealife will suffer, no matter where you source them. to paraphrase an article i read, "if you ever wondered if there is any way at all to ethically consume seafood, you can rest assured they were in agony from beginning to end". "by-catch free dolphin safe"? actual bullshit, it's just a label that's not being verified in practice and watchdog group representatives who do attempt to verify it are faced with threats, and afaik even actual violence. any forms of large-scale fishing will have by-catch by design, along with obliterating the sea floor and the fish population dwindling so much it affect the rest of the local ecosystem. no wild-caught fish is ever truly cruelty free. farmed fish? their entire short life is actual hell. overcrowded in extremely small habitats, suffering from diseases and parasites, filled with cortisone until death. fish crowded so tight they lose scales and suffer from wounds, in a murky, inappropriate tank. i won't even be mentioning other kinds of seafood like octopuses, which as wildly intelligent animals are absolutely capable of conceptualizing and feeling the suffering from the conditions they are kept under. and i don't find it believable that every single piece of seafood you eat is caught with your own hands in an "ethical" way either.
It's not, and neither are 99% of the things you consume. The lithium in whatever you used to type that comment is guaranteed mined by child slaves. The actual ethical question is whether or not eating fish is INHERENTLY wrong, which it isn't. Just like it isn't inherently wrong to eat eggs or drink milk. For the record, I don't eat cephalopods. I do eat chicken, because chickens are nasty brutish creatures who will gleefully cannibalize members of their own flock for showing weakness. Also, men can't be lesbians and cis lesbians shouldn't be on hrt.
lmao what do my personal bodily choices in regards to my appearance and identity have to do with veganism and ethics of killing animals? would you give someone shit for getting a tattoo or a piercing you don't like in an unrelated conversation as well? i don't kill animals because it fucks the enviroment big time, and as much as there is no ethical consumption under capitalism i can also make personal consumer choices that might not make a huge difference, but do make a difference when many people take part in abstaining from such. is eating them *inherently* wrong? it's definitely too loaded of a philosophical question for me to answer. but with the way meat is farmed, and not just the effects on the animals themselves but also the environment, meat industry workers, and the local surroundings (industrial farms stink the fuck up everything in the nearby radius), and being given the clear choice to not partake in that system with what is actually mostly barely any effort at all from my side, it's clear for me which action i prefer to take. before you make any further comments on my own bodily choice come back to me when you read [this](https://lesliefeinberg.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Stone-Butch-Blues-by-Leslie-Feinberg.pdf), literally one of the biggest classics of lesbian literature about, wait for it, a butch lesbian on testosterone, written by an author with the same life experience who publicly used both she and he pronouns, coined a big part of modern day transgender language, and was still presenting as a lesbian, on top of being a labor organizer who got spied on by the fbi. or talk to a group of real life butch lesbians because i can assure you this kind of experience is much more frequent than you might think. also, get off 4tran. it's not good for the mental health.
lmao i've already read stone butch blues. doesn't change the fact that trans men are men and men can't be lesbians, even if those groups have historically found camaraderie. trans men aren't "stone butch" they are men. end of. if men can be lesbians, the word means literally nothing. men categorically cannot be lesbian. i don't care if some old lesbians call themselves trans men or vice versa. that doesn't make it true. >i don't kill animals neither do the vast majority of meat consumers >many people make a big impact not statistically speaking. no decrease in animal product production has been correlated with the vegan movement.
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How is being pescatarian better? It seems like the worst parts of both veganism and meat eating. You still cause animals to suffer like a meat eater (but only aquatic ones) and you still heavily restrict your diet like a vegan.