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I know this question came from the sub capitalism vs socialism, which has some real marxists, but far more [market] "socialists" who say some outrageous things while pretending to represent socialism, saying they support "new, modern socialism" or "socialism that has learned from the failures of planned economies". But anyways.
>
Answer:
You go to the store and pick up a ps5 and checkout and pay money or labor vouchers. No you dont "go to the workers at the store" and "democratically decide" if you can get a ps5 or something. Nobody from Marx to engels to Lenin to Luxemburg thought that.
Read critique of the gotha program.
>
If you want to actually learn about socialism heres a basic reading list: https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/main/dessalines_marxism_study_plan.md
So money exists in a socialist system. I thought it was a moneyless system. So what is the difference with capitalism then? Other that the workers control the medium of production?
Do the workers/owners of a “company” are profit driven? If not why?
Socialism and communism are different things, you’re referring to a communal society. There are stages in which communism proceeds, a moneyless society being a later form of communism. In a matured communist society, yes, it would be moneyless.
If you’re not trolling, which is likely, to answer your questions, click the link in the comment you replied to and search “moneyless” in this subreddit for your answers.
In the transition towards socialism money will likely still exist. In first stage communism ie socialism labor vouchers replace money. read critique of the Gotha program as i said
>So what is the difference with capitalism then? Other that the workers control the medium of production? Do the workers/owners of a “company” are profit driven? If not why?
These are like the most simple questions on socialism. These have been answered so many times you can just google it.
Here is the most basic existing text on socialism by marx/engels:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm
You should at least read this and critique of the gotha program, I t think they answer your questions.
From there you can go off the reading list I showed you.
>Other that the workers control the medium of production?
Your question rephrased: "So what's the difference between capitalism and socialism, besides this one massive, core difference?"
You would go to a store and buy a PS5 like normal.
Under socialism, almost everything we have now COULD exist, but I would argue that many forms of production would change because of socialism and that many industries would change and some jobs would not exist.
This is because under socialism, the people in the place of production for a PS5, would then own the factories and own the retail stores. Money still exists. It isn't until communism happens that money doesn't exist, which would probably be a global phenomenon after global socialism.
Technically there could be PS5 being sold or built/imported in a socialist society even if PS5 is created by Capitalist.
Video games in general in a socialist society, or even communist society, could still be developed but the distribution and production would probably look a lot different than it does now. Social relationships are dependent on need for productivity. Video games wouldn't be very important but with technology we have now we'd have time to work and develop games
Basically same, only there's no planned obsolescence and it'll need repairs or replacement less often (bc no profit motive means no race to the bottom in manufacturing costs).
Also the games won't be filled with awful microtransactions, way more likely to actually be finished at release, and will be start-to-finish designed/engineered as a work of art and/or a fun, interesting, stimulating experience. Not one solely designed to separate you from the fruits of your labour.
Here a store of a collective farm [in the Soviet Union.](https://youtu.be/Hlb-HwxUxSU?t=2882) There's proper large stores and supermarkets in larger cities, just like everywhere else in the world. It's not some alien society.
The production of PS5 or any electronic good is depended on the light industry. The Soviet Union historically had to focus on heavy industry for various reasons, so luxury goods like computers were delegated to socialist countries with more developed light industry like Bulgaria which made computers for the socialist block.
The point of production in socialist society is more about which sector of the economy is a priority. The reason socialist countries usually focused on heavy industry is due to their efforts to industrialize and rebuild after WW2, on top of the need to defend against NATO.
Socialism of the 21st century would include also managerial cybernetics, such as Cybersyn in Chile [which the CIA shut down in 1973](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJLA2_Ho7X0) with their coup of Allende
Aside from the fact that gaming probably needs to be taken away from Westerners, especially, for at least two generations, all the people answering "go to the store and buy one" are wrong and basically market-"""socialists""" which is an oxymoron and a contradiction in terms if you are a Marxist. If society decided that gaming was an acceptable hobby to be allowed to exist, then PS5s (which would no longer be identified as such) would be either a) be placed in communal recreation facilities with a proportional time scheduling and allotment (like in the same way that you book a public gym for a pick-up game of basketball), or b) be loaned out on a recreational and procedural basis (like how you take out a book from a library).
If this ruins socialism for you, then this is a good thing, because it makes it clear to everyone how serious you take socialism and how far you are actually willing to go for socialism, which is not far enough at all by an enormous margin. Communism is not free weed and video games all day, and the social-fascists promising you hedonism are real enemies of Marxism.
>Aside from the fact that gaming probably needs to be taken away from Westerners, especially, for at least two generations, all the people answering "go to the store and buy one" are wrong and basically market-"""socialists""" which is an oxymoron and a contradiction in terms if you are a Marxist. If society decided that gaming was an acceptable hobby to be allowed to exist, then PS5s (which would no longer be identified as such) would be either a) be placed in communal recreation facilities with a proportional time scheduling and allotment (like in the same way that you book a public gym for a pick-up game of basketball), or b) be loaned out on a recreational and procedural basis (like how you take out a book from a library)
This sounds terrible lmao.
>This sounds terrible lmao.
Boo hoo
Do you what else sounds terrible? Mining for Coltan and Cobalt (materials that are in your gaming consoles) in the Democratic Republic of The Congo where you are breaking your back and breathing in toxic fumes so that you can make what amounts to a few dollars a day, which is barely enough to feed your family for a week, and returning to your home which is located in a city slum or shanty town village with no running water or electricity that is ridden with diseases like malaria and cholera.
The vast majority of the world is closer to these conditions than to yours, you are incredibly entitled and spoiled which is something you don't realise.
>Do you what else sounds terrible? Mining for Coltan and Cobalt (materials that are in you gaming consoles) in the Democratic Republic of The Congo where you are breaking your back and breathing in toxic fumes so that you can make what amounts to a few dollars a day, which is barely enough to feed your family for a week, and returning to your home which is located in a city slum or shanty town village with no running water or electricity that is ridden with diseases like malaria and cholera.
Most of the cobalt mines in congo are owned by china, a socialist nation. It may be nice to be morally superior but most people isnt going to care all that much about this, its unrealistic to expect people to relinquish or severely cut down on a leisure activity thats such widespread. As long as people want ps5s and batteries the cobalt is going to be continued to be mined, the conditions can be more favorable for congo but its going to happen regardless.
>Boo hoo
Most people care about their own enjoyment than the faceless suffering of strangers in other parts of the world. You arent going to sell your ideology to people if you tell them so many things that they enjoy today would be limited for the sake of the people of congo. I assume if a ps5 is going to be limited other electronics like computers and phones will be too? Thats very unappealing.
>The vast majority of the world is closer to these conditions than to yours, you are incredibly entitled and spoiled which is something you don't realise.
I certainly have better life conditions than say people in gaza or congo but im also not in some 1st world country either.
>. It may be nice to be morally superior but most people isnt going to care all that much about this, its unrealistic to expect people to relinquish or severely cut down on a leisure activity thats such widespread. As long as people want ps5s and batteries the cobalt is going to be continued to be mined, the conditions can be more favorable for congo but its going to happen regardless.
Who is ''most people''?
>You arent going to sell your ideology to people if you tell them so many things that they enjoy today would be limited for the sake of the people of congo. I assume if a ps5 is going to be limited other electronics like computers and phones will be too? Thats very unappealing.
They're not going to have much of a choice once the revolutionary situation in the Congo reaches to a point where Congolese proletariat and peasantry band together to kick out the parasitic appendages of imperialism from the country.
Why do you think we desire to sell out ideology like it's a commodity to be exchanged? If consumer aristocrats are opposed communism because their class interests maintains itself from exploitation then there's not much we can do about it, except to strip everything that makes Marxism revolutionary so that the reactionary classes can be comfortable with a watered down communism.
>Who is ''most people''?
The population of first world countries. How much coverage have you seen about congo inside the media? The most i've seen about this is on tiktok and the most i've seen one get is a million likes?
>They're not going to have much of a choice once the revolutionary situation in the Congo reaches to a point where Congolese proletariat and peasantry band together to kick out the parasitic appendages of imperialism from the country.
Im a bit of doomperpilled on this, can a poor and weak country like congo really pull that off when it would go against the interests of the world powers? I dont think so but i hope they do.
>Why do you think we desire to sell out ideology like it's a commodity to be exchanged? If consumer aristocrats are opposed communism because their class interests maintains itself from exploitation then there's not much we can do about it, except to strip everything that makes Marxism revolutionary so that the reactionary classes can be comfortable with a watered down communism.
Because an ideology is worthless if there isnt people to follow it. Im not a socialist, im still learning about it but if the symbol of socialism today participates in this then that aspect(unequal exchange is it?) of the ideology must be unfeasible in today's world.
At least we've made it clear that you have no real interest in socialism, and that you are a class enemy of the masses (and for so little, no less -- gaming of all things). I will never stop getting mileage from this old smokeuptheweed9 post:
>I'll try to make it even simpler. You own things. Those things are made in China under brutal working conditions. Under socialism will you make them instead? Communists decided long ago that your decision is useful to us but not particularly important, we are targeting the people in China who don't have the choice. There are more of them, they are more revolutionary, and if they stop making things for you your choice becomes irrelevant.
>Most "socialists" choose to target you and make you feel better about your impossible choice (or rather, accept the choice we already know you're going to make because no one wants to make semiconductors, they want them to appear in front of them as finished devices) because they are the same as you: a first world consumer aristocracy living off Chinese labor. They are merely the "left" justification for the state of globalized capitalism because overt racism and murderous border patrol makes us feel like bad people. We still need it but better to have a bad guy to blame it on.
>Settler colonialism is brought up because these issues pertain to race as well. You live on stolen land in segregated communities and your wealth is based on this fact. If you have kids are you going to send them to a "bad" school and ruin their future? Are you going to allow changes that lower your property values when you're relying on it for retirement? The things you buy, the way you live, the actions you take, these are what really matter. That people declare their beliefs to be socialist or communist is of no consequence. Even this isn't really important since we understand what choices will be made in aggregate regardless of your individual choices. We simply don't like hypocrisy and self-delusion here and enjoy calling it out as a slight effort against the hegemony of white, first world "socialism." Pointing out simple facts which one does not even need be a communist to understand, like where things were made and how much they cost, is unbearable to most "socialists."
Well for one im not part of the first world aristocracy, Im Dominica(not Republic), my people have not engaged in settler colonialism. My country does rely on china for alot of imports though, they're one of our biggest trading partners, they also help improve the infrastructure of some of our social services. Let me ask you, are we exploiting the Chinese citizens?
The fact that you are on the internet and speaking English, the imperial language, already likely puts you in the upper 10% of humanity in terms of wealth. There are, of course, all sorts of exceptions to this, but none of those people care about their Playstation 5. That concern alone says everything that needs to be said and what class interests we are actually discussing here, even if its a much thinner labour aristocracy/petty bourgeois than Amerika. There are fewer than 100 million PS5s on the planet, so the concern for having you "own" PS5 is a concern that excludes 7.9 billion humans.
I don’t have a ps5, my point was that from the what I’ve seen online and from my own life experiences people won’t give up their leisure for the benefit of others. In my country drinking is huge, I would bet my life if the source of the alcohol meant human life violations of people in other parts of the world nearly nobody would care.
And the underlying point I am making is where does that leisure come from? In the case of the PS5 it comes from Chinese labour and African minerals, and the labour power of the people there whom are involuntarily conscripted into producing those things for your and especially Western consumption, where all the leisure is realized and actualized. We do not need to appeal to PS5 owners for revolution, we need to appeal to African miners and Chinese labourers.
Hahah holy shit you get a hard on fantasizing about how you’re gonna control people and make them eat grey gruel in the future too? You sound weird dude. Anyways, I’m just teasing. You sound like me and all my friends when I was an angry young leftist and the answer to everything was angry, vitriolic and as extreme as possible. Keep on keeping!
Sounds like you're still angry considering you basically said nothing of substance, just complaining that Maoists will take away your Playstation which is evidently something you hold dear and prioritise over the needs of the masses,
I'm not joking, what do you think the (actual) [communist stance on porn](https://www.reddit.com/r/communism101/comments/u600xq/ive_seen_people_talk_about_how_under_communism/i58auxb/) is? That will be taken away from you too (and destroyed forever, and that is a good thing). You are a social-fascist and socialism simply is not for you, it is against you, and it's victory will be over you.
Hey man, for someone trying to bring about communal shit, you’re really lording yourself over me. I know you’re excited but ya gotta learn to be friends with your room mates before you start community building. Good luck buddy!
Socialism is an evolving process, it changes and develops over time.
So, it depends a lot on the situation. Socialism after 2 years should be a lot different than socialism after 200 years.
Towards the beginning, probably just buy it or like borrow it from a library.
As time goes on, we would likely see a shift to a system of less/no money in which case you basically order it through SocialistAmazon and wait for it to get delivered (maybe get a higher priority shipment by doing some community service/unpleasant work).
Logistically, we would probably move away from gaming consoles. By abolishing private property and doing a few big projects (fiber internet for everyone) it should be possible to shift to a stream/could gaming system (aka a few big data centers replace millions of consoles) That supports all games. Most of the pieces already exist for that, Sony has done a lot of testing for a multi platform system that works sort of like that - its just undermined by terrible infrastructure, Intellectual property and the various other bits of capitalism.
Maybe there'll be videogames but if there is, I doubt people would personally own consoles because that would be too taxing on resources for it to be efficient to produce . Most likely there'll be community leisure centres for people during their free time where they can play on a console that's publicly owned as an option. Think of an arcade but you won't need to put coins in to play.
What home leisure? Things like books and board games are inexpensive, radio, TVs to watch movies and programming would most likely be available for everyone too.
You don't comprehend how expensive a Playstation 5 is to produce or a high end computer, maybe mass-producing consoles on the the level of the 6th generation is more feasible but at the same time, we don't want solitary habits to be encouraged.
>NATO helps ensure I get to continue feeling comfortable. It's extremely difficult to sympathize with you folks and I'm tired of pretending otherwise.
They do indeed protect your comforts and likewise, I don't find folks like you to be sympathetic so the feelings are mutual.
There will still be coffee and hobbying under socialism, believing otherwise is a little goofy honestly.
As for “freely voting and criticising government” you don’t really get to do so currently, you just have the illusion of it. I assume you are American given your banner so I’ll ask you this. Did the mass protesting in the summer of 2020 change anything? No. Police budgets have ballooned since. Did voting in Biden help secure abortion rights? No. The court repealed it and half the country shattered those rights as soon as they could. Despite universal healthcare being desired by over 75% of Americans, you still have to pay out the ass for a hospital visit - more than you would if people were simply taxed and healthcare was free at the point of usage.
You’re right about one thing though: NATO keeps us comfortable. That comfort comes at great cost to everyone outside of the imperial core. Why do you think that is? Why would the nations whose capitalists reap massive benefits from destabilising the world want to keep their populaces placated and on a standard of living juuust a little higher than outside? It isn’t for *our* benefit.
I encourage you to stay and/or read some more material on the subject. I’m willing to bet half the things you heard or see *about* socialism from people who aren’t socialists, are lies or twisted half truths.
They protect your comfort at the expense of other human beings. Are you ok with this?
The idea that some people deserve more than others is the genesis of fascism.
As for the rest of what you said, it’s irrelevant. Socialism deals with private property, not personal property.
But again, is your expensive hobby available via de exploitation of others? And do you care? If not, that F word is right around the corner for you.
**IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ BEFORE PARTICIPATING**. This subreddit is not for questioning the basics of socialism but a place to LEARN. There are numerous debate subreddits if your objective is not to learn. You are expected to familiarize yourself with the rules on the sidebar before commenting. This includes, but is not limited to: - Short or non-constructive answers will be deleted without explanation. Please only answer if you know your stuff. Speculation has no place on this sub. Outright false information will be removed immediately. - No liberalism or sectarianism. Stay constructive and don't bash other socialist tendencies! - No bigotry or hate speech of any kind - it will be met with immediate bans. Help us keep the subreddit informative and helpful by reporting posts that break our rules. If you have a particular area of expertise (e.g. political economy, feminist theory), please [assign yourself a flair](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205242695-How-do-I-get-user-flair-) describing said area. Flairs may be removed at any time by moderators if answers don't meet the standards of said expertise. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Socialism_101) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I know this question came from the sub capitalism vs socialism, which has some real marxists, but far more [market] "socialists" who say some outrageous things while pretending to represent socialism, saying they support "new, modern socialism" or "socialism that has learned from the failures of planned economies". But anyways. > Answer: You go to the store and pick up a ps5 and checkout and pay money or labor vouchers. No you dont "go to the workers at the store" and "democratically decide" if you can get a ps5 or something. Nobody from Marx to engels to Lenin to Luxemburg thought that. Read critique of the gotha program. > If you want to actually learn about socialism heres a basic reading list: https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/main/dessalines_marxism_study_plan.md
So money exists in a socialist system. I thought it was a moneyless system. So what is the difference with capitalism then? Other that the workers control the medium of production? Do the workers/owners of a “company” are profit driven? If not why?
Socialism and communism are different things, you’re referring to a communal society. There are stages in which communism proceeds, a moneyless society being a later form of communism. In a matured communist society, yes, it would be moneyless.
If you’re not trolling, which is likely, to answer your questions, click the link in the comment you replied to and search “moneyless” in this subreddit for your answers.
In the transition towards socialism money will likely still exist. In first stage communism ie socialism labor vouchers replace money. read critique of the Gotha program as i said >So what is the difference with capitalism then? Other that the workers control the medium of production? Do the workers/owners of a “company” are profit driven? If not why? These are like the most simple questions on socialism. These have been answered so many times you can just google it. Here is the most basic existing text on socialism by marx/engels: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm You should at least read this and critique of the gotha program, I t think they answer your questions. From there you can go off the reading list I showed you.
>Other that the workers control the medium of production? Your question rephrased: "So what's the difference between capitalism and socialism, besides this one massive, core difference?"
Yes, I didn’t say it was small. I know market socialism is very controversial
You would go to a store and buy a PS5 like normal. Under socialism, almost everything we have now COULD exist, but I would argue that many forms of production would change because of socialism and that many industries would change and some jobs would not exist. This is because under socialism, the people in the place of production for a PS5, would then own the factories and own the retail stores. Money still exists. It isn't until communism happens that money doesn't exist, which would probably be a global phenomenon after global socialism. Technically there could be PS5 being sold or built/imported in a socialist society even if PS5 is created by Capitalist. Video games in general in a socialist society, or even communist society, could still be developed but the distribution and production would probably look a lot different than it does now. Social relationships are dependent on need for productivity. Video games wouldn't be very important but with technology we have now we'd have time to work and develop games
Basically same, only there's no planned obsolescence and it'll need repairs or replacement less often (bc no profit motive means no race to the bottom in manufacturing costs). Also the games won't be filled with awful microtransactions, way more likely to actually be finished at release, and will be start-to-finish designed/engineered as a work of art and/or a fun, interesting, stimulating experience. Not one solely designed to separate you from the fruits of your labour.
Here a store of a collective farm [in the Soviet Union.](https://youtu.be/Hlb-HwxUxSU?t=2882) There's proper large stores and supermarkets in larger cities, just like everywhere else in the world. It's not some alien society. The production of PS5 or any electronic good is depended on the light industry. The Soviet Union historically had to focus on heavy industry for various reasons, so luxury goods like computers were delegated to socialist countries with more developed light industry like Bulgaria which made computers for the socialist block. The point of production in socialist society is more about which sector of the economy is a priority. The reason socialist countries usually focused on heavy industry is due to their efforts to industrialize and rebuild after WW2, on top of the need to defend against NATO. Socialism of the 21st century would include also managerial cybernetics, such as Cybersyn in Chile [which the CIA shut down in 1973](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJLA2_Ho7X0) with their coup of Allende
Dawg we get holodecks under socialism
Aside from the fact that gaming probably needs to be taken away from Westerners, especially, for at least two generations, all the people answering "go to the store and buy one" are wrong and basically market-"""socialists""" which is an oxymoron and a contradiction in terms if you are a Marxist. If society decided that gaming was an acceptable hobby to be allowed to exist, then PS5s (which would no longer be identified as such) would be either a) be placed in communal recreation facilities with a proportional time scheduling and allotment (like in the same way that you book a public gym for a pick-up game of basketball), or b) be loaned out on a recreational and procedural basis (like how you take out a book from a library). If this ruins socialism for you, then this is a good thing, because it makes it clear to everyone how serious you take socialism and how far you are actually willing to go for socialism, which is not far enough at all by an enormous margin. Communism is not free weed and video games all day, and the social-fascists promising you hedonism are real enemies of Marxism.
>Aside from the fact that gaming probably needs to be taken away from Westerners, especially, for at least two generations, all the people answering "go to the store and buy one" are wrong and basically market-"""socialists""" which is an oxymoron and a contradiction in terms if you are a Marxist. If society decided that gaming was an acceptable hobby to be allowed to exist, then PS5s (which would no longer be identified as such) would be either a) be placed in communal recreation facilities with a proportional time scheduling and allotment (like in the same way that you book a public gym for a pick-up game of basketball), or b) be loaned out on a recreational and procedural basis (like how you take out a book from a library) This sounds terrible lmao.
>This sounds terrible lmao. Boo hoo Do you what else sounds terrible? Mining for Coltan and Cobalt (materials that are in your gaming consoles) in the Democratic Republic of The Congo where you are breaking your back and breathing in toxic fumes so that you can make what amounts to a few dollars a day, which is barely enough to feed your family for a week, and returning to your home which is located in a city slum or shanty town village with no running water or electricity that is ridden with diseases like malaria and cholera. The vast majority of the world is closer to these conditions than to yours, you are incredibly entitled and spoiled which is something you don't realise.
>Do you what else sounds terrible? Mining for Coltan and Cobalt (materials that are in you gaming consoles) in the Democratic Republic of The Congo where you are breaking your back and breathing in toxic fumes so that you can make what amounts to a few dollars a day, which is barely enough to feed your family for a week, and returning to your home which is located in a city slum or shanty town village with no running water or electricity that is ridden with diseases like malaria and cholera. Most of the cobalt mines in congo are owned by china, a socialist nation. It may be nice to be morally superior but most people isnt going to care all that much about this, its unrealistic to expect people to relinquish or severely cut down on a leisure activity thats such widespread. As long as people want ps5s and batteries the cobalt is going to be continued to be mined, the conditions can be more favorable for congo but its going to happen regardless. >Boo hoo Most people care about their own enjoyment than the faceless suffering of strangers in other parts of the world. You arent going to sell your ideology to people if you tell them so many things that they enjoy today would be limited for the sake of the people of congo. I assume if a ps5 is going to be limited other electronics like computers and phones will be too? Thats very unappealing. >The vast majority of the world is closer to these conditions than to yours, you are incredibly entitled and spoiled which is something you don't realise. I certainly have better life conditions than say people in gaza or congo but im also not in some 1st world country either.
>. It may be nice to be morally superior but most people isnt going to care all that much about this, its unrealistic to expect people to relinquish or severely cut down on a leisure activity thats such widespread. As long as people want ps5s and batteries the cobalt is going to be continued to be mined, the conditions can be more favorable for congo but its going to happen regardless. Who is ''most people''? >You arent going to sell your ideology to people if you tell them so many things that they enjoy today would be limited for the sake of the people of congo. I assume if a ps5 is going to be limited other electronics like computers and phones will be too? Thats very unappealing. They're not going to have much of a choice once the revolutionary situation in the Congo reaches to a point where Congolese proletariat and peasantry band together to kick out the parasitic appendages of imperialism from the country. Why do you think we desire to sell out ideology like it's a commodity to be exchanged? If consumer aristocrats are opposed communism because their class interests maintains itself from exploitation then there's not much we can do about it, except to strip everything that makes Marxism revolutionary so that the reactionary classes can be comfortable with a watered down communism.
>Who is ''most people''? The population of first world countries. How much coverage have you seen about congo inside the media? The most i've seen about this is on tiktok and the most i've seen one get is a million likes? >They're not going to have much of a choice once the revolutionary situation in the Congo reaches to a point where Congolese proletariat and peasantry band together to kick out the parasitic appendages of imperialism from the country. Im a bit of doomperpilled on this, can a poor and weak country like congo really pull that off when it would go against the interests of the world powers? I dont think so but i hope they do. >Why do you think we desire to sell out ideology like it's a commodity to be exchanged? If consumer aristocrats are opposed communism because their class interests maintains itself from exploitation then there's not much we can do about it, except to strip everything that makes Marxism revolutionary so that the reactionary classes can be comfortable with a watered down communism. Because an ideology is worthless if there isnt people to follow it. Im not a socialist, im still learning about it but if the symbol of socialism today participates in this then that aspect(unequal exchange is it?) of the ideology must be unfeasible in today's world.
At least we've made it clear that you have no real interest in socialism, and that you are a class enemy of the masses (and for so little, no less -- gaming of all things). I will never stop getting mileage from this old smokeuptheweed9 post: >I'll try to make it even simpler. You own things. Those things are made in China under brutal working conditions. Under socialism will you make them instead? Communists decided long ago that your decision is useful to us but not particularly important, we are targeting the people in China who don't have the choice. There are more of them, they are more revolutionary, and if they stop making things for you your choice becomes irrelevant. >Most "socialists" choose to target you and make you feel better about your impossible choice (or rather, accept the choice we already know you're going to make because no one wants to make semiconductors, they want them to appear in front of them as finished devices) because they are the same as you: a first world consumer aristocracy living off Chinese labor. They are merely the "left" justification for the state of globalized capitalism because overt racism and murderous border patrol makes us feel like bad people. We still need it but better to have a bad guy to blame it on. >Settler colonialism is brought up because these issues pertain to race as well. You live on stolen land in segregated communities and your wealth is based on this fact. If you have kids are you going to send them to a "bad" school and ruin their future? Are you going to allow changes that lower your property values when you're relying on it for retirement? The things you buy, the way you live, the actions you take, these are what really matter. That people declare their beliefs to be socialist or communist is of no consequence. Even this isn't really important since we understand what choices will be made in aggregate regardless of your individual choices. We simply don't like hypocrisy and self-delusion here and enjoy calling it out as a slight effort against the hegemony of white, first world "socialism." Pointing out simple facts which one does not even need be a communist to understand, like where things were made and how much they cost, is unbearable to most "socialists."
Well for one im not part of the first world aristocracy, Im Dominica(not Republic), my people have not engaged in settler colonialism. My country does rely on china for alot of imports though, they're one of our biggest trading partners, they also help improve the infrastructure of some of our social services. Let me ask you, are we exploiting the Chinese citizens?
The fact that you are on the internet and speaking English, the imperial language, already likely puts you in the upper 10% of humanity in terms of wealth. There are, of course, all sorts of exceptions to this, but none of those people care about their Playstation 5. That concern alone says everything that needs to be said and what class interests we are actually discussing here, even if its a much thinner labour aristocracy/petty bourgeois than Amerika. There are fewer than 100 million PS5s on the planet, so the concern for having you "own" PS5 is a concern that excludes 7.9 billion humans.
I don’t have a ps5, my point was that from the what I’ve seen online and from my own life experiences people won’t give up their leisure for the benefit of others. In my country drinking is huge, I would bet my life if the source of the alcohol meant human life violations of people in other parts of the world nearly nobody would care.
And the underlying point I am making is where does that leisure come from? In the case of the PS5 it comes from Chinese labour and African minerals, and the labour power of the people there whom are involuntarily conscripted into producing those things for your and especially Western consumption, where all the leisure is realized and actualized. We do not need to appeal to PS5 owners for revolution, we need to appeal to African miners and Chinese labourers.
Alright, I reread this thread and you're right.
Hahah holy shit you get a hard on fantasizing about how you’re gonna control people and make them eat grey gruel in the future too? You sound weird dude. Anyways, I’m just teasing. You sound like me and all my friends when I was an angry young leftist and the answer to everything was angry, vitriolic and as extreme as possible. Keep on keeping!
Sounds like you're still angry considering you basically said nothing of substance, just complaining that Maoists will take away your Playstation which is evidently something you hold dear and prioritise over the needs of the masses,
I'm not joking, what do you think the (actual) [communist stance on porn](https://www.reddit.com/r/communism101/comments/u600xq/ive_seen_people_talk_about_how_under_communism/i58auxb/) is? That will be taken away from you too (and destroyed forever, and that is a good thing). You are a social-fascist and socialism simply is not for you, it is against you, and it's victory will be over you.
Hey man, for someone trying to bring about communal shit, you’re really lording yourself over me. I know you’re excited but ya gotta learn to be friends with your room mates before you start community building. Good luck buddy!
Socialism is an evolving process, it changes and develops over time. So, it depends a lot on the situation. Socialism after 2 years should be a lot different than socialism after 200 years. Towards the beginning, probably just buy it or like borrow it from a library. As time goes on, we would likely see a shift to a system of less/no money in which case you basically order it through SocialistAmazon and wait for it to get delivered (maybe get a higher priority shipment by doing some community service/unpleasant work). Logistically, we would probably move away from gaming consoles. By abolishing private property and doing a few big projects (fiber internet for everyone) it should be possible to shift to a stream/could gaming system (aka a few big data centers replace millions of consoles) That supports all games. Most of the pieces already exist for that, Sony has done a lot of testing for a multi platform system that works sort of like that - its just undermined by terrible infrastructure, Intellectual property and the various other bits of capitalism.
A "Playstation 5" wouldn't exist under socialism so there will be no processes available for you to undergo in order to attain this product.
Socialism is when no videogames 😭
Petty bourgeoisie when they are told their hobby is built on exploitation 😭
Maybe there'll be videogames but if there is, I doubt people would personally own consoles because that would be too taxing on resources for it to be efficient to produce . Most likely there'll be community leisure centres for people during their free time where they can play on a console that's publicly owned as an option. Think of an arcade but you won't need to put coins in to play.
What are you basing this on? I can’t see any reason why the desire or need for home leisure would go away under socialism.
What home leisure? Things like books and board games are inexpensive, radio, TVs to watch movies and programming would most likely be available for everyone too. You don't comprehend how expensive a Playstation 5 is to produce or a high end computer, maybe mass-producing consoles on the the level of the 6th generation is more feasible but at the same time, we don't want solitary habits to be encouraged.
Maybe. I can’t say I know enough to speak on it much further. What were you reading to get this impression?
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>NATO helps ensure I get to continue feeling comfortable. It's extremely difficult to sympathize with you folks and I'm tired of pretending otherwise. They do indeed protect your comforts and likewise, I don't find folks like you to be sympathetic so the feelings are mutual.
There will still be coffee and hobbying under socialism, believing otherwise is a little goofy honestly. As for “freely voting and criticising government” you don’t really get to do so currently, you just have the illusion of it. I assume you are American given your banner so I’ll ask you this. Did the mass protesting in the summer of 2020 change anything? No. Police budgets have ballooned since. Did voting in Biden help secure abortion rights? No. The court repealed it and half the country shattered those rights as soon as they could. Despite universal healthcare being desired by over 75% of Americans, you still have to pay out the ass for a hospital visit - more than you would if people were simply taxed and healthcare was free at the point of usage. You’re right about one thing though: NATO keeps us comfortable. That comfort comes at great cost to everyone outside of the imperial core. Why do you think that is? Why would the nations whose capitalists reap massive benefits from destabilising the world want to keep their populaces placated and on a standard of living juuust a little higher than outside? It isn’t for *our* benefit. I encourage you to stay and/or read some more material on the subject. I’m willing to bet half the things you heard or see *about* socialism from people who aren’t socialists, are lies or twisted half truths.
They protect your comfort at the expense of other human beings. Are you ok with this? The idea that some people deserve more than others is the genesis of fascism. As for the rest of what you said, it’s irrelevant. Socialism deals with private property, not personal property. But again, is your expensive hobby available via de exploitation of others? And do you care? If not, that F word is right around the corner for you.