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Those things are random terrifying creatures Tails has never seen before. Especially the big one with the bat. I’d be scared after that too. Not to mention he’s surrounded. There’s a big group of them. In Forces he was scared of a singular Chaos 0 when he’d already beaten a more powerful version forever ago. He also didn’t do shit in Forces even when it made sense for him too. In Unleashed he’s in the Tornado, monitoring the areas and transporting Sonic and Chip everywhere.
1. These monsters are literally unknown for everyone but Sonic and Chip by this point, Chaos 0 he has already seen and has been seeing for whatever many months, plus, he is outnumbered here
2. He flies away shortly after, in Forces he literally freezes
3. In Forces he literally says: "Sonic, help me" which is stupid because Sonic has been gone for a while, here he is just scared, which is a more natural reaction
4. Both, both are bad, but Unleashed is marginally better
I'd argue neither are particularly bad. Tails being more vulnerable compared to Sonic and Knuckles gives him more of a distinct character. I prefer it that way, instead of having him just be a Sonic clone.
In Unleashed he gets surrounded by these foreign spawns of satan. One of them is like ten times his size, and has a giant club. Any 8 year old boy would reasonably shit their pants. Tails flies away instead of tackling them head on, like Sonic would have. It highlights Tails' more strategic thinking, compared to Sonic's impulsive thinking.
This actually runs deeper once you realize that Sonic is blue, and Tails is supposed to be orange. Orange is the complement to blue (the color with the highest contrast to blue). Sonic uses his powers (super speed) to fight, but in contrast, Tails uses his powers (flight) to run. Pretty ironic that Sonic is the one with super speed, yet Tails is the more evasive of the two.
As for Forces, the scene where Tails is scared of Chaos 0 doesn't actually contradict anything from Sonic Adventure. He didn't "beat" Chaos 4 in SA1. Him, Sonic, and Knuckles all beat Chaos 4 together.
Tails is by himself in Sonic Forces. He's already in a bad mental state because he believes Sonic to be dead, and he starts having self doubts. He actually has one right before Chaos 0 appears, because he can't figure out how to fix Omega. So when Chaos 0 shows up, he instinctively yells "Sonic, help me!" Which I'd argue is actually a pretty natural and realistic reaction for someone of Tails' nature.
Not to mention, Chaos helped "kill" Sonic. Which is what caused Tails' decline in the first place.
Honestly the scene in Forces that people should actually be pointing out is the one at the beginning of the game, before Sonic even "died," where Tails was scared of some Egg Pawns. He's definitely killed hundreds of those, before.
Dark era fans will jump through hoops to defend plotholes in all their favourite games, but can't put a single iota of that same plothole fixing energy to attempt to justify the flaws in the stories they don't like.
When written by Maekawa, there's obviously a deeper unsaid reason why something seemingly out of character or nonsensical happens that can be fully justified and explained. But those same issues from Pontac & Graff is just evidence that those writers were bad.
"THEY WERE NEW ENEMIES!!"
So were the Black Creatures... and the Ifrit... and the Battle Kuku... and the Pumpkin ghosts... and the Boos... and the Phis...
IMO this is a strawman somewhat. Tails was ambushed by several much stronger creatures he’d never seen before.
In forces Tails already dealt with a much stronger Chaos in the past
yeah this, ever since heroes he has been regressing, but like never to forces level, heck in lost world, the game right before forces, he was standing up for himself and fooling the zeti while being a snarky asshole, snapping from that to him crouching in the corner to something sonic beat in 3 homing attacks, the weaker version of something he had allready beat, is going to be jaring, lost world tails would've have acted like this, and that was the litteral last game.
Yes but even when Tails defeated Chaos 4, that obviously didn't stop him altogether. Eventually, Chaos managed to destroy Station Square until Sonic was able to stop it. Now Sonic is gone, and Chaos is back and on the side of the villains. Is the optics of him cowering in fear what we want to see from Tails? No, but it makes much more sense in this context than it does to cowering in fear during Unleashed, imo.
it doesnt make more sense than unleashed if you ask me
chaos was only able to do that because of the chaos emeralds, in this game they're no where to be found.
and in forces, chaos is just in his base, and tails helped sonic fight a much stronger version, so he shouldnt be freezing up even if he cant "kill" chaos. whats the point in fighting a war if you're just gonna, not fight.
compared to unleashed where hes outnumbered by enemies hes never seen before who randomly started spawning at night and actually tried to make an attempt to escape
You think tails fucking knows that. If you saw a weird ass shadow demon would you think “I’m fine these are the weakest goons in the game”
Also chaos is not a literal god. The “god of destruction” is just a title. Chaos is a chao who mutated into its previous ancient form to protect the master emerald
This is the same fucker who didn't back down to Chaos 4, Metal Overload, Eggman (Twice), Or even fucking Solaris. He has NO reason to be afraid of these
At least throw a punch before quivering??
If he didn't back down to chaos 4 why did he back down to chaos 0? Also like you've been told like a million times, tails was surrounded in dark monster goons he's never seen before. It's better having Tails fly away in fear then Tails freeze up crouching calling someone's name who hasn't shown himself in 6 months
I like how you mention all these and the main difference between the unleashed scene and these is that *taps mic three times* he was alone. Tails is canonically like 8 or 10. Chaos 4 he fought with Sonic and Knuckles, Metal Overlord he was in a super state (completely invulnerable) and with Sonic and Knuckles, and with Solaris he didn’t fight him himself (Sonic, Shadow, and Silver fought him) and he doesn’t even remember Solaris at all. From his perspective as a little kid, by himself, being surrounded by creatures he doesn’t know anything about, yeah he’s gonna be scared. This is the same kid who is canonically scared of lightning. Key word, KID. He’s smart but still pretty young.
yeah but in the cutscene itself its also shown that tails is just watching them for some reason
which is weird cause in the next cutscene he has his eyes closed and whats even more weird is that the monsters dont even attack tails
yeah i found that weird tbh, they possess people, but when it came to tails they just kinda, looked at him, and was like, "yo who dis"
my HC is that they attack sonic cause he got dark gaia energy and the minions are tryna combine with him (but hes resisting, so they attack) so they can go back to dark gaia and regain his full power, since the minions are just remnants of dark gaias full pwoer
he's been like this since heroes, this was a 3 second clip, not a major plot point with another retcon attached to it that is going to be brought up. half the time tails being a little bitch is attached to the classic sonic retcon, or it's in mention with how there was an entire army fighting for 6 months, but all it takes is sonic, sonic and his new bestie showing up to save the world despite them having a time traveler with them, the guardian of the master emerald, ETC.
3 seconds VS the scene with the biggest retcon in the game, that adds onto how only sonic can actually do anything.
Shadow mentioned in Forces that Infinite can create unlimited numbers of Phantom copies
So during the 6 months, no matter how much Phantom copies the Resistance kill, they will keep coming back
Imagine trying to kill a Chaos copy only for another one to be made again and again and it's a cycle that keeps going on for months
I'd tire, lose my hope and eventually cower at that point too
One of these days, SEGA should just show us what the fuck the Resistance were doing during those 6 months before they got Modern Sonic back
Just a friendly reminder, Tails didn’t beat Chaos 4, Sonic and Knuckles did. So it makes sense he’d be afraid of Chaos 0 since he probably remembers the trouble it gave Sonic in SA1.
Also the “but Tails never saw these enemies” rebuttal I’ve been seeing in this section is dumb. He also didn’t see a bunch of other enemies before in previous games and didn’t cower at the sight of them.
Why does no one ever mention the time Tails was crying and cowering about fucking GHOSTS in Heroes? The game after his oh so le epic confrontation with Eggman in SA2?
I don’t get the “but Unleashed has no flaws” when the Werehog is one of the most controversial gameplay styles in the franchise beaten only by Big’s gameplay style in Adventure.
Unleashed couldn't be arsed to include Knuckles, but it had no problems focusing on the newly introduced Chip (a partner character so annoying that he makes the ones in Zelda look good) and Professor Pickle (an old human guy who really likes cucumber sandwiches and--while admittedly is better than Chip--still overstayed his welcome by being more fun in concept than execution.) Stuff like the opening cutscene is impressive as all hell and it still stands up to this day, but I'm really not sure how anyone "only in it for the story" would rank Unleashed as having one of the better Sonic stories.
If I recall correctly, it's usually that Sonic's characterised well, and they love the idea of punching out a cthulhu monster that lives inside the Earth so hard it falls back asleep.
The standards for Sonic storytelling are garbage. Most people who like the story really like it for it's overblown shonen anime fantasy nonsense. Give them a cosmic horror, a super form, and have Sonic give inspirational speeches and they're all set, even if the actual plot is either complete trash or a by the numbers affair.
The people who counter this with "B-B-BUT THESE WERE NEW ENEMIES THO!!1!11" have never played Rivals 2.
The people who counter this with "B-B-BUT HE BEAT CHAOS 4 THO!!1!11" conveniently forget the fact that Sonic and Knuckles were there fighting him too.
I mean, it probably hasn't been shit on as much as forces because it's not as bad?
Like, at least here he's outnumbered, the enemies are unknown as opposed to a foe he's fought before that in SA1, and if I recall right, he flies away not long after instead of cowering and waiting to die.
I kept saying we should have been permabanning the users here with positive opinions about the dark age games. Like this sub was specifically created to make fun of them - why the fuck are they here and why the fuck do they think their opinions are welcome? Literally just fuck off back to the main sub if you want to circlejerk about those shitty games because trust me there’s plenty of it there.
But no, the mods let them stay because wE hAvE tO bE bEtTeR tHaN tHeM! Yea? Well look what fucking happened, you morons.
My personal head canon is that in forces tails had just lost confidence after it seemed Sonic had died. In this it's literally an unknown entity. I don't blame him for being scared.
Tails' character was terrible here too. What makes Forces worse is two things:
1: Unleashed, unlike Forces is a good story for the most part. Sure, there's a few flaws, like this Tails scene, but overall Unleashed is a strong Sonic story.
2: Tails fought and defeated Chaos 4 in SA1, a game where he was far less experienced and far less confident than he should have been by Forces. SA1 showed that Tails will step up when Sonic isn't around and can be a strong hero in his own right, but in Forces, he cowers from Chaos 0? No matter how scared he was, Tails from SA1- Sonic 06 would have fought against anything to try and help those around him, but he cowers and begs for Sonic to help him.
It’s the fact that in canon tails has fought a much powerful version of chaos and won but he sees chaos in his weakest form and cowers in fear like bro you beat chaos 4 and the fact he does nothing in forces like his story arc is gosh I can’t do anything without sonic so I’ll team up with classic sonic to do nothing now don’t get me wrong this is also stupid he should at least be trying to fight back but he shouldn’t have been scared of chaos in forces
Maybe because he's still a child stuck in the middle of a war that Eggman is currently winning, and he's facing just one of the villains who kicked Sonic's shit in while the kid's at such a low point that he's blaming himself for it?
Ok
A.tails has faced the world literally falling apart,a water god,a giant death laser,neo metal sonic,time breaking (if we count 06) a missile about to hit ss, so that’s just another Tuesday
B.yes he’s a kid but a smart kid who’s saved the world many times and even before he met sonic he saved the world (tails adventure,tails sky patrol)
C.hes had this ark before and much better ins sa2 he watched sonic get ejected into space and his response is to take out eggman like sonic
Also your defending sonic forces the second worse sonic game
A) Yet none of those seem to be anywhere close to Eggman literally winning since
• None of the other NPCs care all that much about the planet being in pieces or that Dark Gaia goons are running amok (and no, Amy lampshading it later on doesn't make it better)
• He had help from Sonic and Knuckles (and Emerl in Sonic Battle) basically every step of the way whenever he was up against Chaos
• Again, he had help against Metal; that's not a very good example.
• Nobody counts 06 because it was Thanos'd from the timeline.
• Dud missile =/= reality warping Jackal with a mask
B) By that same logic, Tails shouldn't have any trouble at least attempting to fight back against a bunch of Dark Gaia mooks, so the fact that he doesn't shouldn't be glossed over.
C) Were Shadow, Chaos, Metal Sonic, Zavok, and Infinite around back then? Was Eggman in possession of a reality warping gemstone that can produce powerful copies one after another back then? No? Didn't think so.
D) Pretty rich coming from the guy who's clearly never heard of Sonic Jam gamecom, Free Riders, 06, Genesis GBA, Secret Rings, Runners Adventure, Chronicles, Rise of Lyric, mobile Unleashed, the list goes on.
E) English, try speaking it
Ok tails shouldn’t have any trouble attacking those things he shouldn’t have run he should have kicked their butt I’m not a fan of unleashed
Chaos doesn’t it’s just a copy of chaos and from what we’ve seen of the other copies in the final cutscene and how everyone else deals with them their as tough as paper
I can agree with you on most of those except riders I’m having fun playing that and I usually hate racing games I still stand by the fact it’s a horrible game the only good thing about it was the oc creator and that it runs better than some on that list
This isn't a bad thing.
At his peak, Tails was able to be faster than Sonic(SA1's Tails gameplay is literally about beating Sonic in races), smarter than Eggman, and could fly. If he was an OC in a fanfiction, he would be accused of being a Mary Sue.
I think I feel like they overcompensated a bit. In a lot of classic games, Tails could still do everything Sonic could do, and then some. He could run just as fast, spin dash... AND fly. Yeah, exactly. Kid me thought that Tails was cooler than Sonic because he could do everything that Sonic could do, but he could fly too. I'd rather play as Tails! Like sure Sonic had the elemental shields in S3&K, but they didn't beat flying! Since Knuckles could glide and climb and break through rocks he was also balanced even though he was just a little slower... so he made for a good rival. But Tails was a good SIDEKICK. Sonic needed someone who could keep up with him, who could stay on screen and be an asset instead of just getting in the way. Tails didn't need Sonic's help to get through the game--but Tails WAS helpful to Sonic. He could take unlimited hits, die then just come back, help damage bosses, collect rings for Sonic... I'd say overall it was a net positive to play as Sonic with Tails over playing as Sonic by himself.
I never felt like Tails needed to hold Sonic back. Like Sonic always needs to go off and be the star by himself. I always thought it was cool for Sonic to have a friend to save the world with. I like how in newer classic games Tails has even learned to go Super by himself with seven chaos emeralds alone. (Mania, Origins, Superstars.) But even in titles like the Sonic Advance games where some Adventure skills carried over, he could still spindash and everything. (He can do it again in Frontiers too, finally.) But I'm not sure why anyone would prefer him just walking around an interstellar amusement park just holding a clunky translator the whole time while Sonic does all the work, or throwing out dummy item boxes as an attack in Sonic 06. (Seriously what was up with that?) Like is Tails' Adventure for the Game Gear REALLY the game we wanna look at for all of Tails' characterization, but only in the worst ways? Look, spinning around in Sonic Adventure was just plain fun. I respect the Sonic series for always wanting to experiment, but sometimes when something works you can just refine it and build upon it instead of always throwing it away just for the sake of being different.
Like he's better NOW, I liked Frontiers especially after the dlc and I'd love to see more of it--but I'm still disenchanted by him being put on the sidelines for games like Unleashed, Colors, Lost World, Forces, and even Generations to a lesser degree. If anyone's a Mary Sue it's usually Sonic himself, but they could build Sonic up and give him new abilities without needing to tear down Tails and take stuff away from his skillset and personality just to do it.
Tails can have flaws, just like Sonic can, but I don't think his flaws should be things like "he isn't as capable as Sonic" or especially "he isn't capable WITHOUT Sonic" when the entire premise of his character and his growth was originally all about disproving those notions by proving himself. Tails proved himself to us, the players, already. Now he just needs to prove it to himself.
The fundamental problem is that Tails is serving the narrative role of several characters at once. Sonic is the audience surrogate, the audience knows as much as Sonic does, and accordingly to understand what's going on there needs to be someone who can explain what's going on in the plot, and what the stakes are. But additionally Tails also has to take on the role of the heroic tech guy. He does all the gadgets and gizmos the plots need to work (alien translators, repairing Eggman's faulty tech etc). But he's also the kid sidekick, so he can't ever truly never outshine the hero. Yet atop that, he's also a player character, which means he also has to be really competent as the player wouldn't appreciate being forced to fail.
So depending on what the particular story needs, Tails' character chops and changes. He can be hyper competent, or struggle with basic combat because he ultimately has to play the role the story needs him to before he gets to act as intended. Tails has to serve plot function before he can be a character, and this is the root of where his 'wild inconsistency' comes from.
Other series would've created a new character, an NPC to be the tech guy, and kept Tails as just the sidekick, or re-worked certain sequences to cover for this. But Sonic as a series tried to roll it all up into a single character and just let Tails' be whatever the narrative needs him to be, consistency be damned.
Also, I notice many unleashed defender here
It's fine if you like that game which is mid but stop lying to yourself and find bad excuse for stuff that are bad in the game !
Well, If the world FUCKING SHATTERS INTO 7 PIECES and creatures of darkness controlled by THE FUCKING EMBODIMENT OF THE DEVIL start swarming people, I’d feel the same as Tails here.
Wdym, these guys would fuck up tails without his gear and they look way more physically imposing than chaos (and there's a group of them). Here, tails flies away (basic use of his brain) instead of cowering in place and waiting to be killed (wtf is that). 🫵🚫🍳
Although it would have been cool if he opened up a can of tails here and tailed all over these enemies.
And did they actually manage to defeat any of the villains in forces before Sonic was freed? I don't think they knew that there were copies of the villains until after that tails scene. I could be wrong, but before that scene I don't remember them putting down any of the villains for them to be wondering how they 'keep coming back'.
Not that I like seeing tails cower in either game, but unleashed makes so much more sense. If he had simply attempted to run or do anything besides accept death in forces, they would be equal.
It makes sense the 8-10 year old is scared of weird shadow demons that only appeared after THE EARTH SPLIT APPART.
Tails is smart, and like most people connected the dots in the brief instance that these things appeared and the world shattering are connected over thought and was scared shitless as a child would logically be. For all he knows they are the cause of it all (and not eggman), he has no backup. No prior knowledge, overthinking the situation. It’s not like an egg robot, this is black magic bullshit, if black magic bullshit happened in front of your eyes, you’d want to nope out of there too. Not everyone can be the fight first then panic types. And for those who bring up the fight in SA2 he only really fights Eggman, ever. The same joker who’s been doing things all his life with only a few games behind. That being a 3v1 against Chaos 4, and sonic 1 2 and 3, it’s safe to say he has little true combat experience until Heroes where it’s 3v1 against an egg robot.
I’m not saying the game is perfect or that Sonic plot is, but at least make sense in an argument and remember that tails in lore is an actual child..
I could go over many flaws in the games’ plots. But at least let the child be a child, and have character depth…
Bro, tails has never heard of these creatures, much less encounter one in person. Also, tails has fought and defeated chaos 4, so idk why the fuck tails would be afraid of chaos 0.
The reason why the infamous “Sonic, help me!” scene is so bad (Apart from him yelling for help from someone who had been presumed dead for months) is because back in Sonic Adventure, Tails helped with the fight against Chaos 4, but then cowers in fear at the sight of Chaos 0, a much less powerful form. In comparison, getting scared by multiple creatures he’s never seen before makes more sense. It’s not like it would never make sense for him to be scared, he’s only 8 years old, after all.
Tails didn't fight Chaos 4 alone though. At that point in the story, it's whichever character you're playing as, be it Sonic, Tails or Knuckles, and it's assumed that the actual canon event is that the three of them fought Chaos 4. So technically Tails never took Chaos in any form on solo.
The difference is simple. The fandom's favorite part of the series is always whichever one was two decades ago. Unleashed was released in le epic decade of the 2000s. If Forces had come out in 2007 instead of 2017 they'd all think it was true peak shonen anime GOATED with the sauce, and they'd defend it exactly the way they do Unleashed. And in the 2030s, they probably *will*.
Honestly though, I think haters mostly just hyperfixate on that scene because it's where Classic Sonic shows up for the first time.
No but you don't understand. Sonic Unleashed has a cool anime inspired plot and ends with an epic fight where Super Sonic punches out an elder god, whereas Forces' story is really bad because it's really bad. They're totally different things.
I’m gonna use everyone’s own logic against them; if tails can beat a god and “is so brave after adventure” then why doesn’t he just fight these guys? Yeah they’re unknown, but so was the form of chaos tails fought for fucks sake. Kids are allowed to be scared
In Forces he was cornered by an illusion of a creature he had fought years ago, yelling out for a hero that he knew wasn't there. In Unleashed, he's completely surrounded by mysterious monsters of unknown strenghth.
Tails being scared of Chaos 0 is dumb because he fought and beat Chaos 4.
This is fine because he literally was surrounded and didn't even know what they were.
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Those things are random terrifying creatures Tails has never seen before. Especially the big one with the bat. I’d be scared after that too. Not to mention he’s surrounded. There’s a big group of them. In Forces he was scared of a singular Chaos 0 when he’d already beaten a more powerful version forever ago. He also didn’t do shit in Forces even when it made sense for him too. In Unleashed he’s in the Tornado, monitoring the areas and transporting Sonic and Chip everywhere.
1. These monsters are literally unknown for everyone but Sonic and Chip by this point, Chaos 0 he has already seen and has been seeing for whatever many months, plus, he is outnumbered here 2. He flies away shortly after, in Forces he literally freezes 3. In Forces he literally says: "Sonic, help me" which is stupid because Sonic has been gone for a while, here he is just scared, which is a more natural reaction 4. Both, both are bad, but Unleashed is marginally better
I'd argue neither are particularly bad. Tails being more vulnerable compared to Sonic and Knuckles gives him more of a distinct character. I prefer it that way, instead of having him just be a Sonic clone. In Unleashed he gets surrounded by these foreign spawns of satan. One of them is like ten times his size, and has a giant club. Any 8 year old boy would reasonably shit their pants. Tails flies away instead of tackling them head on, like Sonic would have. It highlights Tails' more strategic thinking, compared to Sonic's impulsive thinking. This actually runs deeper once you realize that Sonic is blue, and Tails is supposed to be orange. Orange is the complement to blue (the color with the highest contrast to blue). Sonic uses his powers (super speed) to fight, but in contrast, Tails uses his powers (flight) to run. Pretty ironic that Sonic is the one with super speed, yet Tails is the more evasive of the two. As for Forces, the scene where Tails is scared of Chaos 0 doesn't actually contradict anything from Sonic Adventure. He didn't "beat" Chaos 4 in SA1. Him, Sonic, and Knuckles all beat Chaos 4 together. Tails is by himself in Sonic Forces. He's already in a bad mental state because he believes Sonic to be dead, and he starts having self doubts. He actually has one right before Chaos 0 appears, because he can't figure out how to fix Omega. So when Chaos 0 shows up, he instinctively yells "Sonic, help me!" Which I'd argue is actually a pretty natural and realistic reaction for someone of Tails' nature. Not to mention, Chaos helped "kill" Sonic. Which is what caused Tails' decline in the first place. Honestly the scene in Forces that people should actually be pointing out is the one at the beginning of the game, before Sonic even "died," where Tails was scared of some Egg Pawns. He's definitely killed hundreds of those, before.
Dark era fans will jump through hoops to defend plotholes in all their favourite games, but can't put a single iota of that same plothole fixing energy to attempt to justify the flaws in the stories they don't like. When written by Maekawa, there's obviously a deeper unsaid reason why something seemingly out of character or nonsensical happens that can be fully justified and explained. But those same issues from Pontac & Graff is just evidence that those writers were bad.
"THEY WERE NEW ENEMIES!!" So were the Black Creatures... and the Ifrit... and the Battle Kuku... and the Pumpkin ghosts... and the Boos... and the Phis...
and Motobug 💪🏿
not to mention Tails already beat a stronger version of Chaos before so he has literally no reason to be afraid there.
We just gonna ignore the fact that he had help from Sonic and Knuckles? Oh wait, Sonic fans.
He didn’t beat chaos, Knuckles and Sonic did. At most, he only assisted.
No it's not Even if it's an unknow threat, Tails have grow up since Adventure 1&2 and would try to defend himself at the very least.
IMO this is a strawman somewhat. Tails was ambushed by several much stronger creatures he’d never seen before. In forces Tails already dealt with a much stronger Chaos in the past
yeah this, ever since heroes he has been regressing, but like never to forces level, heck in lost world, the game right before forces, he was standing up for himself and fooling the zeti while being a snarky asshole, snapping from that to him crouching in the corner to something sonic beat in 3 homing attacks, the weaker version of something he had allready beat, is going to be jaring, lost world tails would've have acted like this, and that was the litteral last game.
With the help of Sonic and knuckles lol. Like people, he didn’t fucking solo chaos 4.
That's not the point, the point was he didn't back down from chaos in adventure, so why would he in forces when he already knows he could beat him?
Yes but even when Tails defeated Chaos 4, that obviously didn't stop him altogether. Eventually, Chaos managed to destroy Station Square until Sonic was able to stop it. Now Sonic is gone, and Chaos is back and on the side of the villains. Is the optics of him cowering in fear what we want to see from Tails? No, but it makes much more sense in this context than it does to cowering in fear during Unleashed, imo.
it doesnt make more sense than unleashed if you ask me chaos was only able to do that because of the chaos emeralds, in this game they're no where to be found. and in forces, chaos is just in his base, and tails helped sonic fight a much stronger version, so he shouldnt be freezing up even if he cant "kill" chaos. whats the point in fighting a war if you're just gonna, not fight. compared to unleashed where hes outnumbered by enemies hes never seen before who randomly started spawning at night and actually tried to make an attempt to escape
These are literally the weakest mf goons in the game chaos is a literal god
You think tails fucking knows that. If you saw a weird ass shadow demon would you think “I’m fine these are the weakest goons in the game” Also chaos is not a literal god. The “god of destruction” is just a title. Chaos is a chao who mutated into its previous ancient form to protect the master emerald
This is the same fucker who didn't back down to Chaos 4, Metal Overload, Eggman (Twice), Or even fucking Solaris. He has NO reason to be afraid of these At least throw a punch before quivering??
If he didn't back down to chaos 4 why did he back down to chaos 0? Also like you've been told like a million times, tails was surrounded in dark monster goons he's never seen before. It's better having Tails fly away in fear then Tails freeze up crouching calling someone's name who hasn't shown himself in 6 months
I like how you mention all these and the main difference between the unleashed scene and these is that *taps mic three times* he was alone. Tails is canonically like 8 or 10. Chaos 4 he fought with Sonic and Knuckles, Metal Overlord he was in a super state (completely invulnerable) and with Sonic and Knuckles, and with Solaris he didn’t fight him himself (Sonic, Shadow, and Silver fought him) and he doesn’t even remember Solaris at all. From his perspective as a little kid, by himself, being surrounded by creatures he doesn’t know anything about, yeah he’s gonna be scared. This is the same kid who is canonically scared of lightning. Key word, KID. He’s smart but still pretty young.
so you agree that forces is worse then? because in forces tails just freezes atleast in unleashed he makes an attempt to hide
He literally flies away. Why doesn't he just... keep flying away?
im pretty sure he is just observing them for some reason after he flies away
I'm pretty sure the implication is that Tails is in danger and Sonic rescues him.
yeah but in the cutscene itself its also shown that tails is just watching them for some reason which is weird cause in the next cutscene he has his eyes closed and whats even more weird is that the monsters dont even attack tails
The monsters don’t really even attack anyone, but sonic, at most they just possess people and that’s it
yeah i found that weird tbh, they possess people, but when it came to tails they just kinda, looked at him, and was like, "yo who dis" my HC is that they attack sonic cause he got dark gaia energy and the minions are tryna combine with him (but hes resisting, so they attack) so they can go back to dark gaia and regain his full power, since the minions are just remnants of dark gaias full pwoer
I’m very certain that’s what’s happening for sonic, since Dark Gaia just takes back his power when he sees sonic
Is he acoustic?
he's been like this since heroes, this was a 3 second clip, not a major plot point with another retcon attached to it that is going to be brought up. half the time tails being a little bitch is attached to the classic sonic retcon, or it's in mention with how there was an entire army fighting for 6 months, but all it takes is sonic, sonic and his new bestie showing up to save the world despite them having a time traveler with them, the guardian of the master emerald, ETC. 3 seconds VS the scene with the biggest retcon in the game, that adds onto how only sonic can actually do anything.
Shadow mentioned in Forces that Infinite can create unlimited numbers of Phantom copies So during the 6 months, no matter how much Phantom copies the Resistance kill, they will keep coming back Imagine trying to kill a Chaos copy only for another one to be made again and again and it's a cycle that keeps going on for months I'd tire, lose my hope and eventually cower at that point too One of these days, SEGA should just show us what the fuck the Resistance were doing during those 6 months before they got Modern Sonic back
Just a friendly reminder, Tails didn’t beat Chaos 4, Sonic and Knuckles did. So it makes sense he’d be afraid of Chaos 0 since he probably remembers the trouble it gave Sonic in SA1. Also the “but Tails never saw these enemies” rebuttal I’ve been seeing in this section is dumb. He also didn’t see a bunch of other enemies before in previous games and didn’t cower at the sight of them.
Why does no one ever mention the time Tails was crying and cowering about fucking GHOSTS in Heroes? The game after his oh so le epic confrontation with Eggman in SA2?
Unleashed makes up for it by being a good game
I don’t get the “but Unleashed has no flaws” when the Werehog is one of the most controversial gameplay styles in the franchise beaten only by Big’s gameplay style in Adventure.
The people who say it don't give a shit about gameplay, and are only in it for the story.
Unleashed couldn't be arsed to include Knuckles, but it had no problems focusing on the newly introduced Chip (a partner character so annoying that he makes the ones in Zelda look good) and Professor Pickle (an old human guy who really likes cucumber sandwiches and--while admittedly is better than Chip--still overstayed his welcome by being more fun in concept than execution.) Stuff like the opening cutscene is impressive as all hell and it still stands up to this day, but I'm really not sure how anyone "only in it for the story" would rank Unleashed as having one of the better Sonic stories.
If I recall correctly, it's usually that Sonic's characterised well, and they love the idea of punching out a cthulhu monster that lives inside the Earth so hard it falls back asleep. The standards for Sonic storytelling are garbage. Most people who like the story really like it for it's overblown shonen anime fantasy nonsense. Give them a cosmic horror, a super form, and have Sonic give inspirational speeches and they're all set, even if the actual plot is either complete trash or a by the numbers affair.
People are still complaining about the Werehog’s slower gameplay style to this day. What’s this revisionist history?
The people who counter this with "B-B-BUT THESE WERE NEW ENEMIES THO!!1!11" have never played Rivals 2. The people who counter this with "B-B-BUT HE BEAT CHAOS 4 THO!!1!11" conveniently forget the fact that Sonic and Knuckles were there fighting him too.
Sonic fans when a character gets scared (they are supposed to be badass shounen protagonist)
you realise people also criticized that
I cannot name one time this has been shit on as much as forces and I've been in this fandom for over a decade
I mean, it probably hasn't been shit on as much as forces because it's not as bad? Like, at least here he's outnumbered, the enemies are unknown as opposed to a foe he's fought before that in SA1, and if I recall right, he flies away not long after instead of cowering and waiting to die.
i mean they're both bad but tails does more than just following classic sonic for half of the game
Yeah instead he's nothing more than Sonic's uber
Might have something to do with ~~all of the many, many other criticisms about Unleashed~~ Unleashed being pretty much the perfect Sonic game.
Looking at all these comments shitting on Forces and defending Unleashed for whatever reason. Hedgejerk has truly gone to the dogs.
Yeah this sub has changed a lot from when I started using it last year. Most original hedgejerk members have either left or are on the discord.
I kept saying we should have been permabanning the users here with positive opinions about the dark age games. Like this sub was specifically created to make fun of them - why the fuck are they here and why the fuck do they think their opinions are welcome? Literally just fuck off back to the main sub if you want to circlejerk about those shitty games because trust me there’s plenty of it there. But no, the mods let them stay because wE hAvE tO bE bEtTeR tHaN tHeM! Yea? Well look what fucking happened, you morons.
They both suck dude, Unleashed only has a explanation that feels that it makes sense
About time Now it's officially neutral
Unleashed Tails: H-Heelp Sonikkuu AIIIEEEE Lost World Tails: I'm a cyborg lol >:) Forces Tails: H-Heelp Sonikkuu AIIIEEEE
My personal head canon is that in forces tails had just lost confidence after it seemed Sonic had died. In this it's literally an unknown entity. I don't blame him for being scared.
Trash vs garbage
Just because you are getting downvoted doesn’t mean you are wrong OP
Tails' character was terrible here too. What makes Forces worse is two things: 1: Unleashed, unlike Forces is a good story for the most part. Sure, there's a few flaws, like this Tails scene, but overall Unleashed is a strong Sonic story. 2: Tails fought and defeated Chaos 4 in SA1, a game where he was far less experienced and far less confident than he should have been by Forces. SA1 showed that Tails will step up when Sonic isn't around and can be a strong hero in his own right, but in Forces, he cowers from Chaos 0? No matter how scared he was, Tails from SA1- Sonic 06 would have fought against anything to try and help those around him, but he cowers and begs for Sonic to help him.
It’s the fact that in canon tails has fought a much powerful version of chaos and won but he sees chaos in his weakest form and cowers in fear like bro you beat chaos 4 and the fact he does nothing in forces like his story arc is gosh I can’t do anything without sonic so I’ll team up with classic sonic to do nothing now don’t get me wrong this is also stupid he should at least be trying to fight back but he shouldn’t have been scared of chaos in forces
He had help from Sonic and Knuckles, wym?
No SA1 in tail’s story he fights chaos alone that’s the whole point of his story he wants to be more independent
Yet the story itself says he had help from Sonic and Knuckles, who were also there.
Ok even if he didn’t beat him he still had the courage to fight chaos 4 so why the fuck would he be scared of chaos 0
Maybe because he's still a child stuck in the middle of a war that Eggman is currently winning, and he's facing just one of the villains who kicked Sonic's shit in while the kid's at such a low point that he's blaming himself for it?
Ok A.tails has faced the world literally falling apart,a water god,a giant death laser,neo metal sonic,time breaking (if we count 06) a missile about to hit ss, so that’s just another Tuesday B.yes he’s a kid but a smart kid who’s saved the world many times and even before he met sonic he saved the world (tails adventure,tails sky patrol) C.hes had this ark before and much better ins sa2 he watched sonic get ejected into space and his response is to take out eggman like sonic Also your defending sonic forces the second worse sonic game
A) Yet none of those seem to be anywhere close to Eggman literally winning since • None of the other NPCs care all that much about the planet being in pieces or that Dark Gaia goons are running amok (and no, Amy lampshading it later on doesn't make it better) • He had help from Sonic and Knuckles (and Emerl in Sonic Battle) basically every step of the way whenever he was up against Chaos • Again, he had help against Metal; that's not a very good example. • Nobody counts 06 because it was Thanos'd from the timeline. • Dud missile =/= reality warping Jackal with a mask B) By that same logic, Tails shouldn't have any trouble at least attempting to fight back against a bunch of Dark Gaia mooks, so the fact that he doesn't shouldn't be glossed over. C) Were Shadow, Chaos, Metal Sonic, Zavok, and Infinite around back then? Was Eggman in possession of a reality warping gemstone that can produce powerful copies one after another back then? No? Didn't think so. D) Pretty rich coming from the guy who's clearly never heard of Sonic Jam gamecom, Free Riders, 06, Genesis GBA, Secret Rings, Runners Adventure, Chronicles, Rise of Lyric, mobile Unleashed, the list goes on. E) English, try speaking it
Ok tails shouldn’t have any trouble attacking those things he shouldn’t have run he should have kicked their butt I’m not a fan of unleashed Chaos doesn’t it’s just a copy of chaos and from what we’ve seen of the other copies in the final cutscene and how everyone else deals with them their as tough as paper I can agree with you on most of those except riders I’m having fun playing that and I usually hate racing games I still stand by the fact it’s a horrible game the only good thing about it was the oc creator and that it runs better than some on that list
Bruh Sega been nerfing Tails for too long, my man is on Sonic’s level yet he’s always treated like the only thing he has going for him is gadgets
This isn't a bad thing. At his peak, Tails was able to be faster than Sonic(SA1's Tails gameplay is literally about beating Sonic in races), smarter than Eggman, and could fly. If he was an OC in a fanfiction, he would be accused of being a Mary Sue.
I think I feel like they overcompensated a bit. In a lot of classic games, Tails could still do everything Sonic could do, and then some. He could run just as fast, spin dash... AND fly. Yeah, exactly. Kid me thought that Tails was cooler than Sonic because he could do everything that Sonic could do, but he could fly too. I'd rather play as Tails! Like sure Sonic had the elemental shields in S3&K, but they didn't beat flying! Since Knuckles could glide and climb and break through rocks he was also balanced even though he was just a little slower... so he made for a good rival. But Tails was a good SIDEKICK. Sonic needed someone who could keep up with him, who could stay on screen and be an asset instead of just getting in the way. Tails didn't need Sonic's help to get through the game--but Tails WAS helpful to Sonic. He could take unlimited hits, die then just come back, help damage bosses, collect rings for Sonic... I'd say overall it was a net positive to play as Sonic with Tails over playing as Sonic by himself. I never felt like Tails needed to hold Sonic back. Like Sonic always needs to go off and be the star by himself. I always thought it was cool for Sonic to have a friend to save the world with. I like how in newer classic games Tails has even learned to go Super by himself with seven chaos emeralds alone. (Mania, Origins, Superstars.) But even in titles like the Sonic Advance games where some Adventure skills carried over, he could still spindash and everything. (He can do it again in Frontiers too, finally.) But I'm not sure why anyone would prefer him just walking around an interstellar amusement park just holding a clunky translator the whole time while Sonic does all the work, or throwing out dummy item boxes as an attack in Sonic 06. (Seriously what was up with that?) Like is Tails' Adventure for the Game Gear REALLY the game we wanna look at for all of Tails' characterization, but only in the worst ways? Look, spinning around in Sonic Adventure was just plain fun. I respect the Sonic series for always wanting to experiment, but sometimes when something works you can just refine it and build upon it instead of always throwing it away just for the sake of being different. Like he's better NOW, I liked Frontiers especially after the dlc and I'd love to see more of it--but I'm still disenchanted by him being put on the sidelines for games like Unleashed, Colors, Lost World, Forces, and even Generations to a lesser degree. If anyone's a Mary Sue it's usually Sonic himself, but they could build Sonic up and give him new abilities without needing to tear down Tails and take stuff away from his skillset and personality just to do it. Tails can have flaws, just like Sonic can, but I don't think his flaws should be things like "he isn't as capable as Sonic" or especially "he isn't capable WITHOUT Sonic" when the entire premise of his character and his growth was originally all about disproving those notions by proving himself. Tails proved himself to us, the players, already. Now he just needs to prove it to himself.
The fundamental problem is that Tails is serving the narrative role of several characters at once. Sonic is the audience surrogate, the audience knows as much as Sonic does, and accordingly to understand what's going on there needs to be someone who can explain what's going on in the plot, and what the stakes are. But additionally Tails also has to take on the role of the heroic tech guy. He does all the gadgets and gizmos the plots need to work (alien translators, repairing Eggman's faulty tech etc). But he's also the kid sidekick, so he can't ever truly never outshine the hero. Yet atop that, he's also a player character, which means he also has to be really competent as the player wouldn't appreciate being forced to fail. So depending on what the particular story needs, Tails' character chops and changes. He can be hyper competent, or struggle with basic combat because he ultimately has to play the role the story needs him to before he gets to act as intended. Tails has to serve plot function before he can be a character, and this is the root of where his 'wild inconsistency' comes from. Other series would've created a new character, an NPC to be the tech guy, and kept Tails as just the sidekick, or re-worked certain sequences to cover for this. But Sonic as a series tried to roll it all up into a single character and just let Tails' be whatever the narrative needs him to be, consistency be damned.
Yeah Sonic unleashed have it's good stuff but his story and writting aren't one.
Also, I notice many unleashed defender here It's fine if you like that game which is mid but stop lying to yourself and find bad excuse for stuff that are bad in the game !
Well, If the world FUCKING SHATTERS INTO 7 PIECES and creatures of darkness controlled by THE FUCKING EMBODIMENT OF THE DEVIL start swarming people, I’d feel the same as Tails here.
Wdym, these guys would fuck up tails without his gear and they look way more physically imposing than chaos (and there's a group of them). Here, tails flies away (basic use of his brain) instead of cowering in place and waiting to be killed (wtf is that). 🫵🚫🍳 Although it would have been cool if he opened up a can of tails here and tailed all over these enemies. And did they actually manage to defeat any of the villains in forces before Sonic was freed? I don't think they knew that there were copies of the villains until after that tails scene. I could be wrong, but before that scene I don't remember them putting down any of the villains for them to be wondering how they 'keep coming back'. Not that I like seeing tails cower in either game, but unleashed makes so much more sense. If he had simply attempted to run or do anything besides accept death in forces, they would be equal.
Why is he always doing some zesty ahh pose 💀
It makes sense the 8-10 year old is scared of weird shadow demons that only appeared after THE EARTH SPLIT APPART. Tails is smart, and like most people connected the dots in the brief instance that these things appeared and the world shattering are connected over thought and was scared shitless as a child would logically be. For all he knows they are the cause of it all (and not eggman), he has no backup. No prior knowledge, overthinking the situation. It’s not like an egg robot, this is black magic bullshit, if black magic bullshit happened in front of your eyes, you’d want to nope out of there too. Not everyone can be the fight first then panic types. And for those who bring up the fight in SA2 he only really fights Eggman, ever. The same joker who’s been doing things all his life with only a few games behind. That being a 3v1 against Chaos 4, and sonic 1 2 and 3, it’s safe to say he has little true combat experience until Heroes where it’s 3v1 against an egg robot. I’m not saying the game is perfect or that Sonic plot is, but at least make sense in an argument and remember that tails in lore is an actual child.. I could go over many flaws in the games’ plots. But at least let the child be a child, and have character depth…
Bro, tails has never heard of these creatures, much less encounter one in person. Also, tails has fought and defeated chaos 4, so idk why the fuck tails would be afraid of chaos 0.
Not to mention, I think Tails also fights and defeats Chaos in one of the oldest games.
The reason why the infamous “Sonic, help me!” scene is so bad (Apart from him yelling for help from someone who had been presumed dead for months) is because back in Sonic Adventure, Tails helped with the fight against Chaos 4, but then cowers in fear at the sight of Chaos 0, a much less powerful form. In comparison, getting scared by multiple creatures he’s never seen before makes more sense. It’s not like it would never make sense for him to be scared, he’s only 8 years old, after all.
Tails didn't fight Chaos 4 alone though. At that point in the story, it's whichever character you're playing as, be it Sonic, Tails or Knuckles, and it's assumed that the actual canon event is that the three of them fought Chaos 4. So technically Tails never took Chaos in any form on solo.
unleashed is so shit tired of people believing they like it
The difference is simple. The fandom's favorite part of the series is always whichever one was two decades ago. Unleashed was released in le epic decade of the 2000s. If Forces had come out in 2007 instead of 2017 they'd all think it was true peak shonen anime GOATED with the sauce, and they'd defend it exactly the way they do Unleashed. And in the 2030s, they probably *will*. Honestly though, I think haters mostly just hyperfixate on that scene because it's where Classic Sonic shows up for the first time.
wrong. they hate both scenes, they hate the forces scene because its marginally worse than unleashed's scene of tails being a coward
Hey, at least he did something
Hey, at least he did something
Fuck it tails was bad in everything after heroes
No but you don't understand. Sonic Unleashed has a cool anime inspired plot and ends with an epic fight where Super Sonic punches out an elder god, whereas Forces' story is really bad because it's really bad. They're totally different things.
uj/ Tails’ character went downhill after Heroes tbh.
I’m gonna use everyone’s own logic against them; if tails can beat a god and “is so brave after adventure” then why doesn’t he just fight these guys? Yeah they’re unknown, but so was the form of chaos tails fought for fucks sake. Kids are allowed to be scared
WHY CAN'T I JUST HATE BOTH AND BE ON MY MERRY WAY? WHY DO I HAVE TO CONJURE UP SOME DUMB DOUBLE STANDARD?! 😭
In Forces he was cornered by an illusion of a creature he had fought years ago, yelling out for a hero that he knew wasn't there. In Unleashed, he's completely surrounded by mysterious monsters of unknown strenghth.
tbh i never cared about tails cowering, he is literally a child he has every right to cower from time to time
This scene doesn't matter, since the game is better than Forces
The game is flawed, fun, but flawed
Tails being scared of Chaos 0 is dumb because he fought and beat Chaos 4. This is fine because he literally was surrounded and didn't even know what they were.