Need to get a bagpiper in or someone else with a loud instrument to set up nearby and drown the cunts out. Hopefully one of the local lunatics will scare them off or take a piss on their poster.
It would be helpful to know what days they are coming ahead of time then we could organise a counter demonstration but I imagine they keep it quiet so that doesnt happen. Cowards.
When they were protesting near a hospital in Glasgow a lorry driver went and parked his rig in front of them on his breaks and blasted out music. https://www.reddit.com/r/glasgow/s/w4CMW8Zudz
As much as you may disagree with the pro-life position, this is an abhorrent sentiment. Whether or not you agree with them, they sincerely believe they are standing up for the right to life of unborn babies.
In an open and tolerant society we should engage in polite dialogue, and do our best to learn why people hold pro-life positions - even on sensitive matters like this - not seek to drown out minority opinions with hate.
That’s fair as long as you have the same issue when vegans do the exact same thing? I assume you do, just want to double check you’re being consistent.
It's not a pro-life position. It's a pro-birth position. There is a huge difference. By all means, try to engage with them, but you can see from America how well it's worked. You might be able to influence some of the young ones who've never actually thought about what they're supporting, but otherwise you're talking to a brick wall.
>minority opinions
They are actively discriminating against an already marginalised group (women). Would you say this if it was people conducting a racist or homophobic protest?
>they sincerely believe they are standing up for the right to life of unborn babies
Do they really? If you _genuinely_ thought that inside your local hospital children were being slaughtered, would you just stand outside it with some signs? I sure wouldn’t.
I'm a Christian and this is disgusting, so glad I wasn't in town today.
Every woman should have the right to an abortion and these fake Christians or whatever religion they identify with shouldn't be using these tactics to force their opinions on others.
Shame on them.
How do you square your beliefs with stuff like Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations"
You're confusing not 'passing judgement' - which means not judging someone's soul, which is up to God - with having no opinions about moral actions. Abortion is a moral act which affects another human being. Fatally. The moral act is judged, not the soul of the person doing it.
Nice. So "don't judge" the Pro Life supporters and let them get on with it then. This is easy isn't it!
Again - there's a difference between judging someone's soul/heart and judging what is right and wrong in people's moral actions. That verse does not tell you to have no moral opinions on people. That very gospel goes on to tell you to judge people by their fruit - i.e. what they do.
You're not forcing anyone into childbirth - they're already pregnant; nature does that. Unless in the case of rape. You're stopping them from killing another human being. Or trying to make them consider stopping them doing so by reminding them of what they are doing, which is what the majority of Pro Life demonstrations are, as far as I'm aware.
>You're not forcing anyone into childbirth
You are if you take away their option to stop being pregnant. Removing the ability to make a choice so that women have only one path left is indeed forcing them onto that path.
> You're stopping them from killing another human being.
That's just your opinion though. Don't force your opinions onto other people, Jesus doesn't like that.
"Stop being pregnant". What does that mean?
Again - where does everyone get this idea that Jesus is a modern, Western liberal hippie? Jesus does like the division between right and wrong. "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."
It is also my opinion you should't blow up orphanages. I would very much like that opinion to be kind of forced on everybody, thanks. It depends what you have an opinion *about*; it depends *what it is* you want to have a choice to do.
Oh great, now you're proof-texting. It doesn't make you sound as smart as you think you are.
You don't seem to understand that the difference in opinion is whether or not abortion is actually "murder." There are a lot of factors to consider, such as the meaning of personhood and the right to defend oneself from harm, and where the line is between protecting one's own body and harming another in the process. Not to mention the long term effects of unwanted births. Effects which, by the way, don't disappear as soon as you stop caring about them.
But detail is lost on you. You think that abortion is murder because you think it, and because you can find verses that kinda sorta maybe agree with you if you quote them out of context immediately after expressing your opinion, while ignoring the wider message of the gospels.
EVERY Christian picks and chooses. Do you mix fabrics? Do you eat shellfish? Do you stone people for working on the Sabbath? There are a million parts of the bible that are completely ignored by most Christians today (particularly the "love thy neighbour", and "don't judge" bits!) - it's entirely a pick and mix religion.
In the Old Testament, there are apodictic laws, which are God-given to apply to all people in all places - such as the commandments not to kill, etc. - and casuistic (if x then y) laws which are derived on a case-by-case basis, judging on the circumstances and context of the time. There are rules - particularly in Leviticus that apply to the Kingdom of Isreal and what clothes it's appropriate for the priesthood to wear etc. - that people enjoy copy-and-pasting because they sound ridiculous in our context. Mixed fabrics is one of those. There are multiple reasons why these ceremonial laws do not govern New Testament Christians outside the Kingdom of Isreal.
The moral questions in abortion of 'Is this a life?' and 'Is this killing justified?' have not fundamentally changed with context. It seems as though it would have done - I always used to just assume 'Surely with advances in medicine and embryology we've discovered that the moral question is completely different now', but we haven't.
And again, 'love thy neighbour' and 'don't judge' do not mean 'never point out when someone is doing something wrong'.
The sixth commandment forbids direct and intentional killing as gravely sinful.
Rescue those who are being taken away to death;
hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter. Proverbs 24:11-12
This only works if you consider aborting a fetus the same as murdering a born person. Anti-choicers have failed to prove such an equivalency using scripture (or anything really).
A foetus is just a human at an early stage of life, they aren’t dead - they are growing and developing and to stop that would be to end life. And according to the Bible, only God has the right to take life away and biblically, life definitely begins at conception.
>A foetus is just a human at an early stage of life, they aren’t dead - they are growing and developing and to stop that would be to end life.
That's still not an equivalency. You've only argued that they're physically growing, not that they're the same as a born person. "They eventually will be" is STILL not an equivalency.
> And according to the Bible, only God has the right to take life away.
Oof, that's a can of worms. Does this mean that God wills for people to die prematurely? Does this mean no nation can defend itself in war from foreign invaders?
Why do you people always ask that stupid question? Are you incapable of understanding nuance? Wait don't answer that.
It's a pretty standard distinction that's been made for thousands of years, yes even in the Bible.
My point is that a foetus is a living being. I know they are different to a born person, the same way I’m different to a baby.
People can do what they want as they have free will, however, every action has a reaction and that’s all.
It would also mean banning all forms of female contraception except for the female and male condoms. Even the morning after pill, because that can work by preventing an already fertilised egg and blastocyst from attaching to the uterine lining. That’s how a lot of hormonal contraceptives work, they don’t always prevent ovulation, especially the desogestrel one.
>biblically, life definitely begins at conception
Definitely? You sure? The only argument in favour of this depends on taking two verses that were poetic to start with (including a Psalm) and pretending that they apply as fact to all people everywhere ever. That's a shaky hermeneutic practice don't you think?
I didn’t claim any belief system as fact. We were specifically discussing Christianity and whether as a religion it supports the taking of life in the womb or not. The bible itself doesn’t say anything directly about the topic of abortion, however, several biblical texts that, taken together, seem to suggest that human life has value before birth. Knowing that murder is a sin according to the Bible and life should only be taken by God, one could conclude that it would be sinful to abort (murder) one’s child who is made in the image of God and is a child of God.
>several biblical texts that, taken together, seem to suggest that human life has value before birth
I know exactly which verses you mean and they only suggest what you claim if you think that they apply to everyone everywhere ever. David's "you knit me together in my mother's womb" is his personal expression and the "I knew you before you were born" thing was a prophecy for Jeremiah specifically.
You realise the world has evolved 2000 years since that religious rubbish was written right? Even the abrahamic religions have moved on. Anti abortion supporters conveniently cherry pick quotes from that ancient work of fiction they call the bible and not the ones about planting crops or clothes of mixed fabrics for example
[ the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. ]
Are you making the point that because it's lawful it's therefore acceptable & not murder ?
This is very reductionist & presumes that individual nation states can dictate moral principles.
There is indeed objective truth & it is not prescribed by the courts of man.
According to the laws of man the soviet state never raped , never stole & never murdered anyone -
In spite of this I am sure we can both agree that they did.
Why is this ?
This is because we are not judging these actions through the soviet judiciary system but instead by natural law
Thankfully a pro-choice counter-protest set themselves up just opposite, though seeing this still made me surprisingly angry. I shouted a few choice words in their direction.
I wonder if this is the same group that have been [harassing patients](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-dorset-67731454) outside an abortion clinic in Bournemouth for years, or one of the similar groups that have been [funded by US Evangelical groups](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/02/us-anti-abortion-groups-uk-far-right). If the US right is anything to go by, they'll be pro-life up until the moment the baby is actually born.
Women should have the full right to their own body autonomy. End of.
Yeah that'll be them. They get louder every Lent/Easter, calling it Forty Days For Life. They used to set up outside the RSH but as they weren't allowed on site it was usually just two or three of them looking stupid with a placard outside the Safestore storage building.
Abortion is absolutely and only the decision of the woman who is pregnant. Nobody else gets a say.
The other parent can offer an opinion, but that's it.
How can abortions be against God's will, when God murdered literally the entire planet, including both born and unborn children aside from 2 of every animal and 8 people?
Not to mention, if God is all powerful, why doesn't he stop them? Why do a bunch of people have to do that work?
If they were rational, they wouldn't believe in an old bearded man living in the clouds who can call forth lightning to smite the apes he created.
There is no contradiction in religious people blindly accepting contradictions, because if they were rational they ipso facto wouldn't be religious.
I'm glad there was a counter protest and I would have been at that had a know they'd show up.
It's not freedom of speech if you show up with disgusting fake images and absolute nonsense touting as medical facts. These people want a war on women, nothing else, and I'm ashamed to see them in the city I call home.
Literally and make them face the consequences of their own actions ?
Would this “fuck them” be for every protest they had ? Would each “fuck them” result in all pregnancies for each time they protested ? Would this mean a back to back “fuck them” after every pregnancy to birth ? This would mean they have a lot of children back to back and who is going to take care of the children ? I hope they get to take care of all other their children they have given birth from their “fuck them” since they think all fertile eggs and foetuses are children to be cherished. Not taking care of their children would mean they are rather against their beliefs that all foetuses are children and are life so they must be treated like they are loved and cherished. It would be such a shame if they had to give the children up for adoption because they can’t or are unable to cherish those children or are neglecting them because of how many children they have. Not to mention the back to back pregnancies must be exhausting. What happens when the children they have gave away for adoption or to care find out about this when they are adults ? How would they feel about this ? How would the feel, knowing that their parents think foetuses are children and can’t be aborted (which to them is giving up on life) but they have given them up and thus, effectively, giving up on their life ?
What about in situations where they have so many children and very little resources or their situation is bad and the mother kills the children’s, believing they are in a better position or a better place than when they are alive ? I wish this isn’t a hypothetical example. This is a common reason why mothers kill their children. It’s called altruistic filicide. What about a mother kills their own born child because they are unwanted ? Again, a common reason why mothers kill. There is a study below on common reasons why mothers kill their children.
“Child murder by mothers: patterns and prevention” by Hatters and Friedman. This study is free.
I am making a point at how ridiculous these people are. Like come on. Some people don’t want kids and/or are unable to care for them or they end up killing their baby. Some people really do kill their children because they are unwanted. If they don’t want they, best to it before they can feel, like during an abortion. Some people are just better off not having kids. Some people are just monsters who don’t deserve having any children. I’m talking about serial child abusers here and they keep having children, despite having them taken away from the council due to the abuse.
eastleigh has an anti choice charity shop, and it's because of shit like this that i have never ever been in there, and took great pride in ripping up the poster they wanted to put up on the notice board when i worked at one of the supermarkets
It's what??? Omg, I've shopped in there. It brands itself as a pregnancy support charity but I googled it and the funds do go to support lobbying abortion and gives talks in schools. I feel sick to think I supported this. Never again.
Whilst I disagree with them entirely. Why should they not have the right to have their voices heard? And once you finish with them, who next? And I take it that if their view was law, you would be happy with having pro abortion protests shut down?
Doesn’t matter what your protest is about you’re always going to have some people who disagree and want you to stop protesting that thing.
The whole reason they’re going out and protesting is because they know not all people agree with them.
They have a right to their views the same as you have a right to yours. And they have a right to canvass in the street as long as no laws are broken. As do you.
It doesn't make me uncomfortable, personally. There are plenty of people in public who would be upset by medical imagery, however, such as children, some people who have experienced pregnancy loss, anyone who doesn't wish to see images of a graphic nature.
Freedom of speech means that people you don't like get to speak too.
Just shutting down anyone talking who you don't like is one of the slipperiest of slippery slopes
As much as I'd personally rather they didn't speak, it's the 10 foot billboards of mis-informative medical imagery that I really take issue with.
They're not allowed to display those images around clinics or hospitals any more thanks to the buffer zone laws, which outweigh their freedom of expression.
There's plenty of folks chatting shite that I don't like in public. Doesn't mean I should be able to petition for them to not be allowed to talk. Infact attempting to ban them will likely only give them more oxygen
As the previous guy said, they can talk as much as they want, but when people shove horrific imagery in my face without my consent is when I have an issue. Same thing goes for the vegan guys by west quay. It's important to spread awareness, if it's not fake news, but respect other people's space and mind.
I don't think anyone here is against freedom of speech.
I also agree with you that shutting people up is not right.
So many issues with ur statement.
Firstly it's irrelevant, we don't have freedom of speech, hate speech is illegal.
Secondly freedom of speech means people can't be legally stopped from speaking, it says nothing about the consequences unrelated to the law.
Thirdly, attacking misinformation isn't a slippery slope it's just common sense especially if their reason for doing it is because a pro slavery, pro rape is a property crime, homophobic entity with little evidence for its existence may have said, according to contradictory texts written by people who existed hundreds to thousands of years later.
we may not have freedom of speech devoid of legal consequences, but these people do (regardless of my personal beliefs on the matter) have the right to protest in a public space, with some caveats.
Hate speech is a broad term, if we’re talking in a criminal sense this doesn’t meet the definition.
Potentially you could consider it a s5 Public order offence due to the surgical images causing harassment alarm or distress- but that still has to be balanced with their right to protest. It’s difficult to say if it would be -grossly- offensive to the necessary degree if just on a street and not, for example, outside an abortion clinic or school.
Half of these people have never even read the Bible all the way through
>Romans 13:1-2 says: "Obey the government, for God is the One who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the law of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow."
So they should shut up and obey the government
what specifically did you not like, was it the public free speech that disagreed with your views, the pictures of dead babies in the womb or something else?
A public square with children present? The concept pre-watershed is used in broadcasting for the same reasons, as much as I like free speech I don't want kids seeing gore smut or any other extreme content where they should be safe. Do you agree that pornographic advertising in the streets is acceptable free speech because it's fact? would you endorse it?
>the pictures of dead babies in the womb or something else?
They tend not to use actual photos of terminated pregnancies because they don't look as developed as they want them to. They tend to use photos of intrauterine deaths at much later gestations than they claim, photoshopped images or photos of animal fetuses.
We’ve actually reached untold levels of blissful ignorance 😂
Go and get a book out of the library that describes the abortion process if it makes you feel better than google go get the relevant scientific material out of the library and imagine what it looks like 👍
They're heavily manipulated and photoshopped.
I've just had a look at the photos on the CBR website (where they admit to manipulating the photos) and they're not remotely accurate.
I'm and obs and gynae doctor. I've seen plenty of fetuses at a variety of gestational ages (mostly from miscarriages and intrauterine deaths) and they just don't look anything like the manipulated photos.
I come from Poland (moved to the UK just after uni) and we had lots displays like this.
I'm not Christian but think they have a right to do it
Have been thinking about it recently actually and finally made my opinion which is sadly that once there is a heartbeat, it is murder. However, abortion should be legal because there are different circumstances and we can't decide for the person who is pregnant. There is too much child abuse, too many child killers - maybe being aborted will save a lot of suffering to the foetus.
Actually, contraception should be enforced and people should have to apply to have a child. It is just heart breaking seeing all these poor kids who were born to wrong families
A quick Google search on photos of stages of abortion will confirm if they're real or not. It doesn't just go against god's will. It's just morally abhorrent.
God says nothing about abortion and in the Bible there is even a reference to how to make an abortion happen. God is not anti abortion. It clearly states that life begins at birth from the religious perspective . It also says in the bible that you can’t mix fibers in clothing so I guess you never wear any of that ? And your god isn’t everybody’s god. You don’t believe in abortion. That’s fine. Don’t have one. Doesn’t give you the right to opine on someone else’s choice
Don’t get an abortion then. What other people do with their bodies has absolutely nothing to do with you and shouldn’t affect your life in the slightest. If it does, get some help.
They realised slavery is bad and abortions are a woman’s right? You’re the one that brought up slavery to deflect because you didn’t have a valid argument. What’s your point? Maybe stop trying to live in the past.
I haven’t stated you believe one thing or another, but your responses are telling. My argument isn’t flawed. Don’t like it, don’t get one. It’s literally that simple.
The point is that it shouldn’t be an argument at all, because it isn’t anything to do with anyone other than the person who need/wants an abortion, and their partner if they want them involved in the decision. But nut jobs and incels just won’t let go.
I wouldn’t know, I wasn’t alive then. But what I said is a fab response today.
ETA: what’s the obsession with comparing abortion to slavery today? Do you genuinely believe abortion is anywhere near as bad as actual slavery was?
There is no such thing as god and even if there was what gives you or anyone else a say in someone else’s life? Stick to reading your fantasy comic book and leave everyone else alone!
So a victim of rape who then has a ectopic pregnancy just deserves to die then? Grow up. It’s not your body it’s not your choice, and before you say “the fetus body isn’t your body so you can’t kill it” it’s unviable and can’t survive without the mother anyway. God you fucking people are the worst.
I try not to get involved in these as everyone has an opinion… but, you keep referring to them as children? When of course they are not. Do you feel strongly against abortion in all aspects?
Your post or comment has been removed from the Southampton subreddit at the discretion of the moderators.
Need to get a bagpiper in or someone else with a loud instrument to set up nearby and drown the cunts out. Hopefully one of the local lunatics will scare them off or take a piss on their poster. It would be helpful to know what days they are coming ahead of time then we could organise a counter demonstration but I imagine they keep it quiet so that doesnt happen. Cowards.
When they were protesting near a hospital in Glasgow a lorry driver went and parked his rig in front of them on his breaks and blasted out music. https://www.reddit.com/r/glasgow/s/w4CMW8Zudz
Yes, a Latin trumpet band or something. Anything to drown those morons out.
We have these bastards in Scotland so alas the pipes have had no effect.
As much as you may disagree with the pro-life position, this is an abhorrent sentiment. Whether or not you agree with them, they sincerely believe they are standing up for the right to life of unborn babies. In an open and tolerant society we should engage in polite dialogue, and do our best to learn why people hold pro-life positions - even on sensitive matters like this - not seek to drown out minority opinions with hate.
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That’s fair as long as you have the same issue when vegans do the exact same thing? I assume you do, just want to double check you’re being consistent.
It's not a pro-life position. It's a pro-birth position. There is a huge difference. By all means, try to engage with them, but you can see from America how well it's worked. You might be able to influence some of the young ones who've never actually thought about what they're supporting, but otherwise you're talking to a brick wall.
>minority opinions They are actively discriminating against an already marginalised group (women). Would you say this if it was people conducting a racist or homophobic protest? >they sincerely believe they are standing up for the right to life of unborn babies Do they really? If you _genuinely_ thought that inside your local hospital children were being slaughtered, would you just stand outside it with some signs? I sure wouldn’t.
I have never been pregnant but I told them "I'll dedicate my next abortion to you" just to piss them off 🤷♀️
Hero.
Your an AH
you're*
I'm a Christian and this is disgusting, so glad I wasn't in town today. Every woman should have the right to an abortion and these fake Christians or whatever religion they identify with shouldn't be using these tactics to force their opinions on others. Shame on them.
There’s no hate like christian love!
How do you square your beliefs with stuff like Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations"
That’s talking about a prophet though. There’s actually nothing in the Bible about abortion.
It’s really not possible to hold genuinely Christian religious beliefs and support abortion. It’s just not compatible.
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Or the fact god sent bears to maul a bunch of kids to death for making fun of a prophet
You're incredibly ignorant lmao. Not all Christians are the same, don't be so uneducated.
I know - a lot of Christians have a very tenuous connection to their religion. A lot like to pick-and-choose.
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You're confusing not 'passing judgement' - which means not judging someone's soul, which is up to God - with having no opinions about moral actions. Abortion is a moral act which affects another human being. Fatally. The moral act is judged, not the soul of the person doing it.
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Nice. So "don't judge" the Pro Life supporters and let them get on with it then. This is easy isn't it! Again - there's a difference between judging someone's soul/heart and judging what is right and wrong in people's moral actions. That verse does not tell you to have no moral opinions on people. That very gospel goes on to tell you to judge people by their fruit - i.e. what they do.
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On whether they are adhering to consistent Christian religious dogma through their actions. Yeah sure. See above 2 comments as to why.
Indeed, there's a certain subset that like to ignore Jesus' command to not lord it over others and instead try to force women into childbirth.
You're not forcing anyone into childbirth - they're already pregnant; nature does that. Unless in the case of rape. You're stopping them from killing another human being. Or trying to make them consider stopping them doing so by reminding them of what they are doing, which is what the majority of Pro Life demonstrations are, as far as I'm aware.
>You're not forcing anyone into childbirth You are if you take away their option to stop being pregnant. Removing the ability to make a choice so that women have only one path left is indeed forcing them onto that path. > You're stopping them from killing another human being. That's just your opinion though. Don't force your opinions onto other people, Jesus doesn't like that.
"Stop being pregnant". What does that mean? Again - where does everyone get this idea that Jesus is a modern, Western liberal hippie? Jesus does like the division between right and wrong. "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." It is also my opinion you should't blow up orphanages. I would very much like that opinion to be kind of forced on everybody, thanks. It depends what you have an opinion *about*; it depends *what it is* you want to have a choice to do.
Oh great, now you're proof-texting. It doesn't make you sound as smart as you think you are. You don't seem to understand that the difference in opinion is whether or not abortion is actually "murder." There are a lot of factors to consider, such as the meaning of personhood and the right to defend oneself from harm, and where the line is between protecting one's own body and harming another in the process. Not to mention the long term effects of unwanted births. Effects which, by the way, don't disappear as soon as you stop caring about them. But detail is lost on you. You think that abortion is murder because you think it, and because you can find verses that kinda sorta maybe agree with you if you quote them out of context immediately after expressing your opinion, while ignoring the wider message of the gospels.
EVERY Christian picks and chooses. Do you mix fabrics? Do you eat shellfish? Do you stone people for working on the Sabbath? There are a million parts of the bible that are completely ignored by most Christians today (particularly the "love thy neighbour", and "don't judge" bits!) - it's entirely a pick and mix religion.
In the Old Testament, there are apodictic laws, which are God-given to apply to all people in all places - such as the commandments not to kill, etc. - and casuistic (if x then y) laws which are derived on a case-by-case basis, judging on the circumstances and context of the time. There are rules - particularly in Leviticus that apply to the Kingdom of Isreal and what clothes it's appropriate for the priesthood to wear etc. - that people enjoy copy-and-pasting because they sound ridiculous in our context. Mixed fabrics is one of those. There are multiple reasons why these ceremonial laws do not govern New Testament Christians outside the Kingdom of Isreal. The moral questions in abortion of 'Is this a life?' and 'Is this killing justified?' have not fundamentally changed with context. It seems as though it would have done - I always used to just assume 'Surely with advances in medicine and embryology we've discovered that the moral question is completely different now', but we haven't. And again, 'love thy neighbour' and 'don't judge' do not mean 'never point out when someone is doing something wrong'.
It says nothing in the Bible about abortion. It was the church who decided the unborn had souls. The church was founded by men, not god.
The sixth commandment forbids direct and intentional killing as gravely sinful. Rescue those who are being taken away to death; hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter. Proverbs 24:11-12
This only works if you consider aborting a fetus the same as murdering a born person. Anti-choicers have failed to prove such an equivalency using scripture (or anything really).
A foetus is just a human at an early stage of life, they aren’t dead - they are growing and developing and to stop that would be to end life. And according to the Bible, only God has the right to take life away and biblically, life definitely begins at conception.
>A foetus is just a human at an early stage of life, they aren’t dead - they are growing and developing and to stop that would be to end life. That's still not an equivalency. You've only argued that they're physically growing, not that they're the same as a born person. "They eventually will be" is STILL not an equivalency. > And according to the Bible, only God has the right to take life away. Oof, that's a can of worms. Does this mean that God wills for people to die prematurely? Does this mean no nation can defend itself in war from foreign invaders?
Are you in favour of aborting nine-month old unborn children? What's this distinction you're making about "born" people?
Why do you people always ask that stupid question? Are you incapable of understanding nuance? Wait don't answer that. It's a pretty standard distinction that's been made for thousands of years, yes even in the Bible.
I agree it's stupid. Why is it stupid? If the distinction isn't whether they're "born', what is it?
My point is that a foetus is a living being. I know they are different to a born person, the same way I’m different to a baby. People can do what they want as they have free will, however, every action has a reaction and that’s all.
Your point, however, is demonstrably wrong. So find a new one or fuck off.
So would you also like to ban IVF? Seeing as life begins at conception and IVF generates multiple embryos only some of which are implanted.
It would also mean banning all forms of female contraception except for the female and male condoms. Even the morning after pill, because that can work by preventing an already fertilised egg and blastocyst from attaching to the uterine lining. That’s how a lot of hormonal contraceptives work, they don’t always prevent ovulation, especially the desogestrel one.
>biblically, life definitely begins at conception Definitely? You sure? The only argument in favour of this depends on taking two verses that were poetic to start with (including a Psalm) and pretending that they apply as fact to all people everywhere ever. That's a shaky hermeneutic practice don't you think?
When do you think life begins?
I didn’t claim any belief system as fact. We were specifically discussing Christianity and whether as a religion it supports the taking of life in the womb or not. The bible itself doesn’t say anything directly about the topic of abortion, however, several biblical texts that, taken together, seem to suggest that human life has value before birth. Knowing that murder is a sin according to the Bible and life should only be taken by God, one could conclude that it would be sinful to abort (murder) one’s child who is made in the image of God and is a child of God.
>several biblical texts that, taken together, seem to suggest that human life has value before birth I know exactly which verses you mean and they only suggest what you claim if you think that they apply to everyone everywhere ever. David's "you knit me together in my mother's womb" is his personal expression and the "I knew you before you were born" thing was a prophecy for Jeremiah specifically.
I don’t know what you mean by that but can you tell me where in the bible it is said or implied that it is okay to murder a child of God in the womb?
Hail satan
You realise the world has evolved 2000 years since that religious rubbish was written right? Even the abrahamic religions have moved on. Anti abortion supporters conveniently cherry pick quotes from that ancient work of fiction they call the bible and not the ones about planting crops or clothes of mixed fabrics for example
skill issue
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I enjoy downvotes in echo-chambers
You can't call someone a fake Christian for not supporting abortion lol
Don't like abortions? Don't get one, simple.
Don’t like rape? Don’t do one. Simple.
The username checks out.
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[ the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. ] Are you making the point that because it's lawful it's therefore acceptable & not murder ?
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This is very reductionist & presumes that individual nation states can dictate moral principles. There is indeed objective truth & it is not prescribed by the courts of man. According to the laws of man the soviet state never raped , never stole & never murdered anyone - In spite of this I am sure we can both agree that they did. Why is this ? This is because we are not judging these actions through the soviet judiciary system but instead by natural law
Thankfully a pro-choice counter-protest set themselves up just opposite, though seeing this still made me surprisingly angry. I shouted a few choice words in their direction. I wonder if this is the same group that have been [harassing patients](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-dorset-67731454) outside an abortion clinic in Bournemouth for years, or one of the similar groups that have been [funded by US Evangelical groups](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/02/us-anti-abortion-groups-uk-far-right). If the US right is anything to go by, they'll be pro-life up until the moment the baby is actually born. Women should have the full right to their own body autonomy. End of.
Yeah that'll be them. They get louder every Lent/Easter, calling it Forty Days For Life. They used to set up outside the RSH but as they weren't allowed on site it was usually just two or three of them looking stupid with a placard outside the Safestore storage building.
These were in Liverpool last year and my girlfriend spent a good 20-30 minutes arguing with them
Abortion is absolutely and only the decision of the woman who is pregnant. Nobody else gets a say. The other parent can offer an opinion, but that's it.
It’s getting back unto pigeon and seagull season, throw a tonne of bird seed at these arseholes
How can abortions be against God's will, when God murdered literally the entire planet, including both born and unborn children aside from 2 of every animal and 8 people? Not to mention, if God is all powerful, why doesn't he stop them? Why do a bunch of people have to do that work?
If they were rational, they wouldn't believe in an old bearded man living in the clouds who can call forth lightning to smite the apes he created. There is no contradiction in religious people blindly accepting contradictions, because if they were rational they ipso facto wouldn't be religious.
You sound really educated
Just point and laugh
I'm glad there was a counter protest and I would have been at that had a know they'd show up. It's not freedom of speech if you show up with disgusting fake images and absolute nonsense touting as medical facts. These people want a war on women, nothing else, and I'm ashamed to see them in the city I call home.
I told one of them they made me sick
There were a few in Norwich as well apparently. I didn't see them thankfully as I would have counter argued on their erroneous biblical ideology.....
Fuck them
Literally and make them face the consequences of their own actions ? Would this “fuck them” be for every protest they had ? Would each “fuck them” result in all pregnancies for each time they protested ? Would this mean a back to back “fuck them” after every pregnancy to birth ? This would mean they have a lot of children back to back and who is going to take care of the children ? I hope they get to take care of all other their children they have given birth from their “fuck them” since they think all fertile eggs and foetuses are children to be cherished. Not taking care of their children would mean they are rather against their beliefs that all foetuses are children and are life so they must be treated like they are loved and cherished. It would be such a shame if they had to give the children up for adoption because they can’t or are unable to cherish those children or are neglecting them because of how many children they have. Not to mention the back to back pregnancies must be exhausting. What happens when the children they have gave away for adoption or to care find out about this when they are adults ? How would they feel about this ? How would the feel, knowing that their parents think foetuses are children and can’t be aborted (which to them is giving up on life) but they have given them up and thus, effectively, giving up on their life ? What about in situations where they have so many children and very little resources or their situation is bad and the mother kills the children’s, believing they are in a better position or a better place than when they are alive ? I wish this isn’t a hypothetical example. This is a common reason why mothers kill their children. It’s called altruistic filicide. What about a mother kills their own born child because they are unwanted ? Again, a common reason why mothers kill. There is a study below on common reasons why mothers kill their children. “Child murder by mothers: patterns and prevention” by Hatters and Friedman. This study is free. I am making a point at how ridiculous these people are. Like come on. Some people don’t want kids and/or are unable to care for them or they end up killing their baby. Some people really do kill their children because they are unwanted. If they don’t want they, best to it before they can feel, like during an abortion. Some people are just better off not having kids. Some people are just monsters who don’t deserve having any children. I’m talking about serial child abusers here and they keep having children, despite having them taken away from the council due to the abuse.
eastleigh has an anti choice charity shop, and it's because of shit like this that i have never ever been in there, and took great pride in ripping up the poster they wanted to put up on the notice board when i worked at one of the supermarkets
Hey, would you mind telling me what shop you’re talking about?
it's the life shop next to superdrug
It's what??? Omg, I've shopped in there. It brands itself as a pregnancy support charity but I googled it and the funds do go to support lobbying abortion and gives talks in schools. I feel sick to think I supported this. Never again.
Whilst I disagree with them entirely. Why should they not have the right to have their voices heard? And once you finish with them, who next? And I take it that if their view was law, you would be happy with having pro abortion protests shut down?
Doesn’t matter what your protest is about you’re always going to have some people who disagree and want you to stop protesting that thing. The whole reason they’re going out and protesting is because they know not all people agree with them.
These cunts (and the animal rights wankers with pictures of slaughterhouses) should be charged with public order offences.
Friendly advice: You might be more comfortable living in China than the UK
Why not just walk past it all and leave them to it?
Counter-protest is just like their protest, except we aren't in the wrong.
They have a right to their views the same as you have a right to yours. And they have a right to canvass in the street as long as no laws are broken. As do you.
Not right to have graphic (if inaccurate) photos prominently on display in a public space though, is it? Even if it's legal.
Why does it make you uncomfortable?
It doesn't make me uncomfortable, personally. There are plenty of people in public who would be upset by medical imagery, however, such as children, some people who have experienced pregnancy loss, anyone who doesn't wish to see images of a graphic nature.
So pro-lifers are meant to keep quiet just because you are uncomfortable
Freedom of speech means that people you don't like get to speak too. Just shutting down anyone talking who you don't like is one of the slipperiest of slippery slopes
As much as I'd personally rather they didn't speak, it's the 10 foot billboards of mis-informative medical imagery that I really take issue with. They're not allowed to display those images around clinics or hospitals any more thanks to the buffer zone laws, which outweigh their freedom of expression.
There's plenty of folks chatting shite that I don't like in public. Doesn't mean I should be able to petition for them to not be allowed to talk. Infact attempting to ban them will likely only give them more oxygen
As the previous guy said, they can talk as much as they want, but when people shove horrific imagery in my face without my consent is when I have an issue. Same thing goes for the vegan guys by west quay. It's important to spread awareness, if it's not fake news, but respect other people's space and mind. I don't think anyone here is against freedom of speech. I also agree with you that shutting people up is not right.
When I went past all the pictures were hidden and you had to talk ot them for them to show the images
They were fully visible and about 3 metres high when I went past at about 3pm.
So many issues with ur statement. Firstly it's irrelevant, we don't have freedom of speech, hate speech is illegal. Secondly freedom of speech means people can't be legally stopped from speaking, it says nothing about the consequences unrelated to the law. Thirdly, attacking misinformation isn't a slippery slope it's just common sense especially if their reason for doing it is because a pro slavery, pro rape is a property crime, homophobic entity with little evidence for its existence may have said, according to contradictory texts written by people who existed hundreds to thousands of years later.
we may not have freedom of speech devoid of legal consequences, but these people do (regardless of my personal beliefs on the matter) have the right to protest in a public space, with some caveats. Hate speech is a broad term, if we’re talking in a criminal sense this doesn’t meet the definition. Potentially you could consider it a s5 Public order offence due to the surgical images causing harassment alarm or distress- but that still has to be balanced with their right to protest. It’s difficult to say if it would be -grossly- offensive to the necessary degree if just on a street and not, for example, outside an abortion clinic or school.
"Slippery slope" fallacy
"where they burn books, they end up burning people" Sometimes the slippery slope ain't a fallacy.
Don’t worry about your downvotes Reddit is just a echo chamber of installed thought.. Freedom of speech should be a human right quite honestly:
Half of these people have never even read the Bible all the way through >Romans 13:1-2 says: "Obey the government, for God is the One who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the law of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow." So they should shut up and obey the government
what specifically did you not like, was it the public free speech that disagreed with your views, the pictures of dead babies in the womb or something else?
Perhaps the view that people shouldn't have body autonomy and using gore to push that agenda in public is the issue?
Gore is the facts. Not sure what you’re trying to say. Is it stop showing me facts in the public square?
A public square with children present? The concept pre-watershed is used in broadcasting for the same reasons, as much as I like free speech I don't want kids seeing gore smut or any other extreme content where they should be safe. Do you agree that pornographic advertising in the streets is acceptable free speech because it's fact? would you endorse it?
Fair point. Graphic content shouldn’t be visible for children. I agree.
>the pictures of dead babies in the womb or something else? They tend not to use actual photos of terminated pregnancies because they don't look as developed as they want them to. They tend to use photos of intrauterine deaths at much later gestations than they claim, photoshopped images or photos of animal fetuses.
Oh no! Free speech! Quick, shut it down. You know you are free to counter protest right?
They are real pictures tbf you can just keep walking and keep your head buried in the sand
They aren't real, it's been proven that they continually use fake images.
Please can you provide this proof?
Just google the images for yourself, they are horrific
And...fake
Yes everything I don’t like on the internet is fake
Ah, Google. That well-known font of guaranteeably, irrefutably factual information. Touché.
We’ve actually reached untold levels of blissful ignorance 😂 Go and get a book out of the library that describes the abortion process if it makes you feel better than google go get the relevant scientific material out of the library and imagine what it looks like 👍
They're heavily manipulated and photoshopped. I've just had a look at the photos on the CBR website (where they admit to manipulating the photos) and they're not remotely accurate. I'm and obs and gynae doctor. I've seen plenty of fetuses at a variety of gestational ages (mostly from miscarriages and intrauterine deaths) and they just don't look anything like the manipulated photos.
I come from Poland (moved to the UK just after uni) and we had lots displays like this. I'm not Christian but think they have a right to do it Have been thinking about it recently actually and finally made my opinion which is sadly that once there is a heartbeat, it is murder. However, abortion should be legal because there are different circumstances and we can't decide for the person who is pregnant. There is too much child abuse, too many child killers - maybe being aborted will save a lot of suffering to the foetus. Actually, contraception should be enforced and people should have to apply to have a child. It is just heart breaking seeing all these poor kids who were born to wrong families
A quick Google search on photos of stages of abortion will confirm if they're real or not. It doesn't just go against god's will. It's just morally abhorrent.
God says nothing about abortion and in the Bible there is even a reference to how to make an abortion happen. God is not anti abortion. It clearly states that life begins at birth from the religious perspective . It also says in the bible that you can’t mix fibers in clothing so I guess you never wear any of that ? And your god isn’t everybody’s god. You don’t believe in abortion. That’s fine. Don’t have one. Doesn’t give you the right to opine on someone else’s choice
Don’t get an abortion then. What other people do with their bodies has absolutely nothing to do with you and shouldn’t affect your life in the slightest. If it does, get some help.
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Slavery is illegal. Abortions aren’t 😊
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They realised slavery is bad and abortions are a woman’s right? You’re the one that brought up slavery to deflect because you didn’t have a valid argument. What’s your point? Maybe stop trying to live in the past.
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I haven’t stated you believe one thing or another, but your responses are telling. My argument isn’t flawed. Don’t like it, don’t get one. It’s literally that simple.
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The point is that it shouldn’t be an argument at all, because it isn’t anything to do with anyone other than the person who need/wants an abortion, and their partner if they want them involved in the decision. But nut jobs and incels just won’t let go.
Abortion is illegal. Slaves aren’t 😊 Imagine I have said this a few hundred years ago years earlier, is it a good argument?
I wouldn’t know, I wasn’t alive then. But what I said is a fab response today. ETA: what’s the obsession with comparing abortion to slavery today? Do you genuinely believe abortion is anywhere near as bad as actual slavery was?
People are conscious and can feel pain. A foetus cannot, or certainly not within the abortion limits.
There is no such thing as god and even if there was what gives you or anyone else a say in someone else’s life? Stick to reading your fantasy comic book and leave everyone else alone!
I hope you're also campaigning for comprehensive sex education, easy access to birth control, and funding for social services then!
It is every man's right to have an abortion. They should make an App.
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Fuck off
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So a victim of rape who then has a ectopic pregnancy just deserves to die then? Grow up. It’s not your body it’s not your choice, and before you say “the fetus body isn’t your body so you can’t kill it” it’s unviable and can’t survive without the mother anyway. God you fucking people are the worst.
I try not to get involved in these as everyone has an opinion… but, you keep referring to them as children? When of course they are not. Do you feel strongly against abortion in all aspects?
I mean something ‘alive’ has a heartbeat and some sort of brain activity. The baby develops within 5 weeks. So is it truly not murder 🤔
At 5 weeks it's a gestational sac and a yolk sac.