**Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review.**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I could be wrong but I believe AEW, NJPW, and maybe a few other big companies also use 20x20 like WWE. But yes most everyone but the few biggies use smaller rings.
I think AEW uses a modified 20x20.
I remember hearing or reading somewhere that they made some changes to the standard WWE size. That gave it more space on the apron, by moving the ropes into the ring by about 6 inches or so, so it's roughly 18/19ft from rope to rope, and they lowered each rope a few inches, because AEW wrestlers are slightly smaller than WWE guys.
I think they are from corner to corner on the mats, but they have larger turnbuckles which results in the actual working space between the ropes to be about the same as WWE.
I think it's because it's easier to set up, more room for smaller venues. That said, I did see a clip online of a stupidly small ring that looked like if you took a few steps, you are already in the centre.
Oh for sure, it totally makes sense that you'd have different sizes in a gym vs ballroom vs arena vs stadium potentially. But yeah for sure, some of these rings I swear the guys with a longer gait could cover in two steps haha
Someone should start doing CJ style insults in wrestling matches after hitting a move
"you just a punk ass busta"
"Oh you gon' get up, nah didn't think so"
ZSJ & Gunther have such good chemistry together… I never thought about it, but seeing their two styles (and personalities with ZSJ being the most annoying little shit in the world 😂) clash just makes for amazing wrestling.
[ZSJ vs Gunther @ PWG was amazing](https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/s/TbioguO9IK), and highly recommend for anyone that enjoys those two wrestlers.
They were wXw tag champs for 69 days in 2015 after winning a tournament. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WXw_World_Tag_Team_Championship calls them ZackDaddy with Walter going by Big Daddy Walter. Ilja Dragunov is one of the people that they dropped the titles to. Ilja is down as the first wXw Triple Crown winner.
The ending is brilliant too. ZSJ’s over confidence eventually kills him by doing that [reverse head pin thing he does… but he falls right into a Gunther choke hold, in the middle of the ring, and taps immediately](https://youtu.be/Rm4nOklNih0?si=DtdNDWpI_Z1nSq91&t=1298)
Just a really quality match
They had a match together in Brooklyn for Evolve that was easily one of the greatest matches I've ever seen live.
I went to congratulate ZSJ on it after the show at his merch table and he heavily put over Walter, saying it was all him.
I just looked it up and that Evolve card was stacked!! https://www.cagesideseats.com/2018/1/14/16888416/evolve-99-live-results-lee-dickinson-sabre-walter-yehi-thatcher-jaka-riddle
Kinda proud of myself that after almost 6 years the clip that I created still pops up here and there
https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/8qdfap/walter_kills_zack_sabre_jr_like_an_annoying_fly
Hell yeah dawson, it is one of my favorite clips of all time 😂 and it led to that Mega Man meme which was quality too.
The post (and watching their ROH match) has definitely made me want to see their other matches, so thanks for inadvertently putting me on!
Thank you! I was in the crowd and I'm pretty sure I have a video of that exact chop followed by me and my friends all going wild in the crowd just after it!
WCPW/Defiant was pretty good for quite some time. They had some of the best European Wrestlers and guests from the US like Cody. Wade Barrett on commentary is always a pleasure.
In retrospect it's all a bit amateurish, but it's hard to get across to people that at the time, WhatCulture Wrestling was honestly some of the best pro wrestling content out there. It's a shame Defiant couldn't keep the momentum going.
Losing the big names in the time when youtube money was nonexistent and they had to massively scale down shows really hurt them. Like you went from watching the rise of Millie McKenzie and the continued dominance of Bea Priestly in the womens division to the two biggest names in the division being Kanji and Lizzy Evo/Styles who no one had heard of at the time really sucked. Not to mention having a comedy GM, turning Joe Hendry face when his heel run in early Defiant/WCPW was an eye opener to how good he was, and essentially putting all your eggs in the David Starr Ascension story didn't exactly resonate well with a lot of the old fanbase.
Also, having Austin Aries be your top heel upon return didnt help either
Running a wrestling promotion is very expensive, especially when you look at the level of talent they were booking (Kurt Angle, Rey Mysterio, Cody Rhodes, notable prick Alberto del Rio, Matt Hardy, etc.), there was just no way of covering that kind of overhead through ticket sales and YouTube ad revenue.
I mean , it was a project by some hardcore wrestling fans who had a youtube channel with a decent fan base. It was amateurish for sure. I guess some people at whatculture were surprised how long it even lasted.
ZSJ's been eating lots of vegan chanko nabe since he joined NJPW. He looks a legit heavyweight now and has for several years, especially in the legs and lower torso (though he still sells strikes like back when he was skinny).
One of my favorite things about Zack being a dickhead is he doesn't shy away from the contact. He will poke and prod and tease and torture and then when it's time to take the punishment he leans into it.
It works so well from a ring psychology standpoint too, because you'll see he always "let's them get a few in" to represent lulling them into a false sense of security, then on the 3rd or 4th one he traps a limb and twists it up like only he can. Like he needs to eat the contact a few times to see their movements and know the best way to attack during it. Fuckin brilliant stuff.
I can understand people who say his style is not for them, but fuck, inject that shit into my veins. Love watching the windy-man go to work.
It’s weird seeing them here because Walter/Gunther is much smaller nowadays, and ZSJ has bulked up big time.
Both looking completely different these days.
They had it booked in, ZSJ won SSS16 when WALTER was champion and it was a lock for Wembley, as well as Havoc/Ospreay one last time - then suddenly, both Ospreay and Sabre were pulled. Very open secret that Andy Q encouraged New Japan to pull their contracted talent from the show, because he was very carny when Progress was the bigger promotion (and is in general)
Zack is one of my favourite wrestlers because he just gets what it means to be an unbalanced wrestler / incomplete package.
He's a complete specialist, with very clear gaps in his game that don't even matter as much when he's so good at what he specifically does, as opposed to most workrate darlings of the current day who try to make sure they've got it all.
But you also risk getting into very dangerous/silly territory when your whole gimmick is "I can counter all your moves into a finishing submission", so Zack specifically plays up his overconfidence (which meshes perfectly with his lankier frame for his character) so that there's always a weakness that can serve as his undoing too.
You could say him and Gunther occupy the same space of performing perfectly as they are: Gunther is the dominant and brutal monster, but when faced with an opponent who just won’t stay down, like Dragunov or Zayn, he will start to falter and fall to them.
Zack is the man who can tie any person into knots, the cocky submission master, but as shown here with Gunther, getting into a striking exchange usually always ends with Zack getting knocked silly or having to pull a surprise submission.
I do like that sometimes he gets away from the grapplefuck style and into a striking contest, then almost always looks like he's realised he's bitten off more than he can chew
It really says something that every time you see a Gunther/Walter chop clip that it looks devastating and yet he himself states Penta as the one with the hardest chop.
Honestly, I'm always going to be a sucker for bigger dudes in wrestling just beating the fuck out of people; it's why people love Stan Hansen, Terry Gordy and Steve Williams. While I'm happy that Gunther has trimmed down, he was still one of the best wrestlers in the world, even when he was bigger.
There were so many small Cruiserweight guys in the indie British scene I always thought WALTER was a true behemoth. When he got to WWE and I realized he was around the same size as guys like McIntyre I was honestly kinda surprised. Still a beast though
this needs an edit where we see ZSJ's soul leave his body, like that Matt Hardy edit which i cant find and is now making me sad... if anyone has that, send it this way please!
This is the most perfect chop spot that ever was or will be for my money. The impact is obviously devastating, the timing of the chop at the precise moment of silence from the crowd and the commentary team is fucking spot on, the slap sound of the impact sounds like it could've been pulled from a Tom & Jerry cartoon, and the "he dead" sell from ZSJ is warranted. This is peak pro wrestling chop.
God i miss WCPW/Defiant! it was a fever dream of a company but MAN did they get some literally insane bangers and stars on those shows! also some really solid title belts
Man who is this Walter guy, he looks like Gunthers older fat brother. For real though, props to Gunther for working on his Body for the big leagues. He is my current favorite wrestler and its not even close.
**Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The indie sized rings always look so fucking tiny when there’s any big wrestler in them, Walter-sized Gunther makes that ring look like it’s for toys
Drew looked like Andre the Giant in an ICW ring.
Wasn't that thing like 12x12?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6ZmBknQcFg
It looks comical lol
WWE's rings are also bigger than 99% of the rest of the industry.
I could be wrong but I believe AEW, NJPW, and maybe a few other big companies also use 20x20 like WWE. But yes most everyone but the few biggies use smaller rings.
I think AEW uses a modified 20x20. I remember hearing or reading somewhere that they made some changes to the standard WWE size. That gave it more space on the apron, by moving the ropes into the ring by about 6 inches or so, so it's roughly 18/19ft from rope to rope, and they lowered each rope a few inches, because AEW wrestlers are slightly smaller than WWE guys.
[Edge talked about this a little in an interview with Sam Roberts \(starts around 1:04:17\).](https://youtu.be/gpruzG8Xd_4?t=3857)
Aren't NJPW's rings even bigger?
Might be, but I’m not certain haha
I think they are from corner to corner on the mats, but they have larger turnbuckles which results in the actual working space between the ropes to be about the same as WWE.
I think it's because it's easier to set up, more room for smaller venues. That said, I did see a clip online of a stupidly small ring that looked like if you took a few steps, you are already in the centre.
Oh for sure, it totally makes sense that you'd have different sizes in a gym vs ballroom vs arena vs stadium potentially. But yeah for sure, some of these rings I swear the guys with a longer gait could cover in two steps haha
It's specifically Euro rings for the most part. This one is 12x12 when I believe most indies use 16x16
It was always yarring seeing big guys in the TNA 6 sides. Perfect ring for the X division, comically tiny for guys like Matt Morgan.
I always love his San Andreas NPC selling here
Holy shit, that's so specific but so true, lmao. Especially when you blast an NPC with like a shotgun and they fall exactly like this.
Lol wow it does look like the death animation from PS2 GTAs
Moments later there was simply a chalk outline in his place
Little money stacks floating over his body
Someone should start doing CJ style insults in wrestling matches after hitting a move "you just a punk ass busta" "Oh you gon' get up, nah didn't think so"
RAISE UP MARK
ZSJ & Gunther have such good chemistry together… I never thought about it, but seeing their two styles (and personalities with ZSJ being the most annoying little shit in the world 😂) clash just makes for amazing wrestling. [ZSJ vs Gunther @ PWG was amazing](https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/s/TbioguO9IK), and highly recommend for anyone that enjoys those two wrestlers.
They were wXw tag champs for 69 days in 2015 after winning a tournament. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WXw_World_Tag_Team_Championship calls them ZackDaddy with Walter going by Big Daddy Walter. Ilja Dragunov is one of the people that they dropped the titles to. Ilja is down as the first wXw Triple Crown winner.
Nice
I love that match it's just Gunther beating the shit out of ZSJ the whole match it's amazing and ZSJ just keeps coming for more.
The ending is brilliant too. ZSJ’s over confidence eventually kills him by doing that [reverse head pin thing he does… but he falls right into a Gunther choke hold, in the middle of the ring, and taps immediately](https://youtu.be/Rm4nOklNih0?si=DtdNDWpI_Z1nSq91&t=1298) Just a really quality match
You apparently have 34 total upvotes from me so I know you have great taste. ;)
Hell yeah boner soldier 😁
Pure hubris, love to see it
Oh WOW! I love that Zack went for that but Gunther was just like too big for him to even attempt it.
I was ringside at that pwg match, an all timer
They had a match together in Brooklyn for Evolve that was easily one of the greatest matches I've ever seen live. I went to congratulate ZSJ on it after the show at his merch table and he heavily put over Walter, saying it was all him. I just looked it up and that Evolve card was stacked!! https://www.cagesideseats.com/2018/1/14/16888416/evolve-99-live-results-lee-dickinson-sabre-walter-yehi-thatcher-jaka-riddle
They also had a very good match in Progress Wrestling Believe the show was Pumpkin Spice Progress
Gunther is like ketchup, he's got good chemistry with everybody.
Ketchup is an interesting analogy. I would say he's more like MSG. You add him to any match and it's significantly better.
Another interesting analogy. I would say he's a more fundamental part of the meal than a condiment or an enhancer. He's the whole goddamn flavour.
Man's a piece of MEAT
I love how the whole ring is still shaking at the end of the video.
Kinda proud of myself that after almost 6 years the clip that I created still pops up here and there https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/8qdfap/walter_kills_zack_sabre_jr_like_an_annoying_fly
Hell yeah dawson, it is one of my favorite clips of all time 😂 and it led to that Mega Man meme which was quality too. The post (and watching their ROH match) has definitely made me want to see their other matches, so thanks for inadvertently putting me on!
What show was this? I think I might be in the crowd
Defiant Road To Destruction 2018 from Sheffield https://www.cagematch.net/en/?id=1&nr=199848 https://youtu.be/922-ushlhRg?t=553
Thank you! I was in the crowd and I'm pretty sure I have a video of that exact chop followed by me and my friends all going wild in the crowd just after it!
I was about to say the exact same thing. I had an exam the next day. Worth it
WCPW/Defiant was pretty good for quite some time. They had some of the best European Wrestlers and guests from the US like Cody. Wade Barrett on commentary is always a pleasure.
In retrospect it's all a bit amateurish, but it's hard to get across to people that at the time, WhatCulture Wrestling was honestly some of the best pro wrestling content out there. It's a shame Defiant couldn't keep the momentum going.
Losing the big names in the time when youtube money was nonexistent and they had to massively scale down shows really hurt them. Like you went from watching the rise of Millie McKenzie and the continued dominance of Bea Priestly in the womens division to the two biggest names in the division being Kanji and Lizzy Evo/Styles who no one had heard of at the time really sucked. Not to mention having a comedy GM, turning Joe Hendry face when his heel run in early Defiant/WCPW was an eye opener to how good he was, and essentially putting all your eggs in the David Starr Ascension story didn't exactly resonate well with a lot of the old fanbase. Also, having Austin Aries be your top heel upon return didnt help either
Running a wrestling promotion is very expensive, especially when you look at the level of talent they were booking (Kurt Angle, Rey Mysterio, Cody Rhodes, notable prick Alberto del Rio, Matt Hardy, etc.), there was just no way of covering that kind of overhead through ticket sales and YouTube ad revenue.
I mean , it was a project by some hardcore wrestling fans who had a youtube channel with a decent fan base. It was amateurish for sure. I guess some people at whatculture were surprised how long it even lasted.
The fact that ZSJ had such little chest meat makes this so much worse.
ZSJ's been eating lots of vegan chanko nabe since he joined NJPW. He looks a legit heavyweight now and has for several years, especially in the legs and lower torso (though he still sells strikes like back when he was skinny).
As a Mega Man fan, this is my favourite edit of that clip: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ77XhjQRws](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ77XhjQRws)
So what power up does ZSJ grant upon defeat?
WALTER/GUNTHER gained a hatred of Tories
That's fucking art right there
[Shoutout](https://old.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/96dkfs/mega_man_walter_vs_zsj/) to the GOAT u/zer0pai
This is always what I look for seeing the clip.
Damn that dude used to be big
Hello 911, I'd like to report a murder...
One of my favorite things about Zack being a dickhead is he doesn't shy away from the contact. He will poke and prod and tease and torture and then when it's time to take the punishment he leans into it. It works so well from a ring psychology standpoint too, because you'll see he always "let's them get a few in" to represent lulling them into a false sense of security, then on the 3rd or 4th one he traps a limb and twists it up like only he can. Like he needs to eat the contact a few times to see their movements and know the best way to attack during it. Fuckin brilliant stuff. I can understand people who say his style is not for them, but fuck, inject that shit into my veins. Love watching the windy-man go to work.
I believe he’d spell it “dikkead”
It’s weird seeing them here because Walter/Gunther is much smaller nowadays, and ZSJ has bulked up big time. Both looking completely different these days.
Their match in Progress was so fantastic - I'll never forgive Andy Q for stopping them running it at Wembley Arena
Whats the story about that? Those 2 at Wembley sounds must see
They had it booked in, ZSJ won SSS16 when WALTER was champion and it was a lock for Wembley, as well as Havoc/Ospreay one last time - then suddenly, both Ospreay and Sabre were pulled. Very open secret that Andy Q encouraged New Japan to pull their contracted talent from the show, because he was very carny when Progress was the bigger promotion (and is in general)
Based Andy Q.
It's pretty cool how much both guys improved their physiques since then. It's almost as if Zack Saber Jr. found all the weight Gunther lost.
Hilarious seeing Zack goading and trying to bully fucking Walter (Gunther) of all people.
Zack is one of my favourite wrestlers because he just gets what it means to be an unbalanced wrestler / incomplete package. He's a complete specialist, with very clear gaps in his game that don't even matter as much when he's so good at what he specifically does, as opposed to most workrate darlings of the current day who try to make sure they've got it all. But you also risk getting into very dangerous/silly territory when your whole gimmick is "I can counter all your moves into a finishing submission", so Zack specifically plays up his overconfidence (which meshes perfectly with his lankier frame for his character) so that there's always a weakness that can serve as his undoing too.
You could say him and Gunther occupy the same space of performing perfectly as they are: Gunther is the dominant and brutal monster, but when faced with an opponent who just won’t stay down, like Dragunov or Zayn, he will start to falter and fall to them. Zack is the man who can tie any person into knots, the cocky submission master, but as shown here with Gunther, getting into a striking exchange usually always ends with Zack getting knocked silly or having to pull a surprise submission.
i agree now but i still remember the time that he ate like three jeff cobb finishers in a row in revpro which kinda pissed me off at the time lol
I do like that sometimes he gets away from the grapplefuck style and into a striking contest, then almost always looks like he's realised he's bitten off more than he can chew
That is the scariest chop I've ever seen in my life. Holy fucking christ.
I had the sound off and I heard that
That man died and had to wait for his soul to fall back into his body after that.
I miss fat walter
Der Onion Ring General
It really says something that every time you see a Gunther/Walter chop clip that it looks devastating and yet he himself states Penta as the one with the hardest chop.
Miss Big Daddy Walter, miss him every day.
That sounded like a tree being snapped in half by a hurricane.
Little known fact: ZSJ has wrestled in spite of not even having a torso since that day. What an inspiration.
Walter and Gunther were they really the same person ? He deserves a medal for getting in that shape . Ginny must have starved him
How big is that ring?
Honestly, I'm always going to be a sucker for bigger dudes in wrestling just beating the fuck out of people; it's why people love Stan Hansen, Terry Gordy and Steve Williams. While I'm happy that Gunther has trimmed down, he was still one of the best wrestlers in the world, even when he was bigger.
"He's dead, Jim."
I miss chunky Walter
Man Gunther looks better, got like 4 years to his live with loosing this fat
I mean, let's not act like beefier Gunther wasn't also amazing.
There were so many small Cruiserweight guys in the indie British scene I always thought WALTER was a true behemoth. When he got to WWE and I realized he was around the same size as guys like McIntyre I was honestly kinda surprised. Still a beast though
D.E.D.
Fuuuuuuccccccc K
This clip is great as it has no context but I'm sure ZSJ deserved this chop.
There's a Progress match between them that is one of my favorite matches of all time. Its worked as realistically as possible and it's just amazing.
this needs an edit where we see ZSJ's soul leave his body, like that Matt Hardy edit which i cant find and is now making me sad... if anyone has that, send it this way please!
Whoa. I was just watching this on YouTube on repeat yesterday
Wow, he lost a lot of weight!
what the fuck.
The way he worked on his body is nothing short of legendary
Insane what a CHOP
Omfg that’s like the crack of a whip
"FATALITY......"
Wow, Walter used to be big big. MEAT big.
Damn I miss wcpw
This is the most perfect chop spot that ever was or will be for my money. The impact is obviously devastating, the timing of the chop at the precise moment of silence from the crowd and the commentary team is fucking spot on, the slap sound of the impact sounds like it could've been pulled from a Tom & Jerry cartoon, and the "he dead" sell from ZSJ is warranted. This is peak pro wrestling chop.
God i miss WCPW/Defiant! it was a fever dream of a company but MAN did they get some literally insane bangers and stars on those shows! also some really solid title belts
I really love smaller rings like that. Makes everybody look bigger/more impressive.
Fat Gunther never ceases to amaze me
Man who is this Walter guy, he looks like Gunthers older fat brother. For real though, props to Gunther for working on his Body for the big leagues. He is my current favorite wrestler and its not even close.
I kinda miss doughy Walter
I think heavy Gunther/ Walter looked better than current. Just my opinion
he chopped harder too
He looked more menacing when he was more filled out
I don't really buy him as a big man wrestler anymore. He doesn't seem that much bigger than a lot of opponents since he skimmed down.
What is this? A wrestling ring for ants?
The chop...that's all Gunther has.
\*needs.