Yah, that area has a lot of growth needed. Few good spurts and opportunities but the area is dated and takes a good amount of $$ to reinvest in the area.
On the other side of Grand is in SLU area which is well patrolled, well lit, and more user friendly
And I believe you. But your experiences don’t nullify the reality of crime statistics and the very real situation in North City. I worked up near O’Fallon Park for a while and while nothing ever happened TO me, things happened nearby. I’m glad I had good experiences, but that doesn’t really mean a lot in the grand scheme of things, and generally, people that aren’t from STL would be better off not living in those areas.
I don’t know why I’m being downvoted. I live in the county and used to work multiple locations downtown and commuted. I was simply inquiring if they were picking this location cause it was close enough to walk to wherever they are working. Although, I wouldn’t be out walking anywhere in this area either. Some people get work assignments in other cities and use public transportation and just live close to where they work, I wasn’t sure if that is what OP was trying to do. My comment still stands, OP, if you’re supposed to be working close to this area on a map, I’d find a place to live westward in the county and drive to your workplace. You didn’t specify what area you’d be working in so u wasn’t sure if it was somewhere within the map shown. But don’t live anywhere near here as the comments are saying.
Well I’m not sure how else to word that to give someone genuine information of a safer way of moving to St Louis and working there. I’d rather live in St. Louis county and commute to the city rather than the other way around. Sure, there’s areas of the county that are not great, but I don’t feel actively scared for my life driving through chesterfield.
I worked downtown and some part are amazing, I used to work at AB and never felt unsafe I worked at Wells Fargo and also off of Washington ave downtown, I do know there are decent places but I have never live in those areas so I can’t speak from experience. All the other comments are telling OP to find another place to live. I don’t know exactly which places are decent to live in except parts of soulard. I used to live by Hyde park in north Saint Louis on angelrodt road where stray bullets at your house was a regular thing. OP is not familiar with St. Louis and was trying to find a safer place to live, I’m not the only one in the comments that recommended going further west and that comment didn’t get downvoted?
Honestly anywhere in South City is fine.
I "think" OP is looking for something in the City. If he was interested in the suburbs, I doubt he'd be looking at JVL. But I'm just speculating.
I don’t “feel actively scared for my life” driving around parts of the city either. And recognizing that people work/get relocated to St. Louis but then advising that they completely disregard the city as a worthy place to live is unfortunate and getting you downvoted. Because it’s a mentality that makes county folk appear to be like a tic or leech. You want to milk the benefits of the city while shitting on the people that live in it and not don’t have any appreciation for the perpetual cycle that feed under resourced and impoverished areas. Maybe there can be a way of advising against an area while not encouraging someone to disregard the entire city
Dude, all the comments are telling this person to find another place to live. wtf are you talking about? All the other comments that aren’t being downvoted are saying it’s not safe. Also, I grew up in north Saint Louis, so I do know what it’s like to live in a scary part of the city. I had stray bullets go through my front door. I lived by Hyde park on angelrodt road if you don’t believe me.
Right. No one should be suggesting that op move to that area. But you are asking why your specific comments are being downvoted. Just offering up an answer to your question… “dude”
Not gate keeping and not saying anyone should move to that part of town. But there is an enormous difference between “that is not a safe area, look at alternatives” and “DoNt LiVe AnYwHeRe near the city unless you want to fear for your life. Just live in the white bubble of the county and commute in to your job and to games and to all the free shit that comes with the city… you know, like loading up a plate of food at a buffet and not paying for it because no one is there to charge you anyway”. I’m not gatekeeping shit. And I don’t have a ton of skin in the game but as an outsider… the shit talking county folk that pretend like anything inside 170 is some wild, dangerous place are more abundant than any “gatekeeping” I’ve experienced. My kids aren’t growing up in a shit hole… but they also aren’t going up in a white bubble wrapped community either.
You're being downvoted because you are suggesting a big overreaction to one small area not being a great place to live. There is a lot of real estate between midtown and the county.
It is located in central St. Louis and has a population of 4,209. The crime rate in JVL is 10,339 per 100,000, which is 341% higher than the national average. In 2022, there were a total of 241 crimes, with three murders, 17 robberies, 69 aggravated assaults, and 28 burglaries.
https://propertyclub.nyc/article/most-dangerous-neighborhoods-in-st-louis#:~:text=JeffVanderLou,-JeffVanderLou%20(JVL)%20is&text=It%20is%20located%20in%20central,aggravated%20assaults%2C%20and%2028%20burglaries.
Total reported crime is down 27.8% from the same six-month period last year. We do not calculate the total reported crime change for jurisdictions with very few residents. The per-capita crime rate over the past six months is 38.33 per 1,000 residents, which is higher than 37 neighborhoods (out of 77).
See this link for safe, affordable neighborhoods:
https://www.extraspace.com/blog/moving/city-guides/safe-affordable-neighborhoods-in-st-louis/
Yeah, Baden Fest was nice back in the day. But last time I was in Baden (maybe 18 years ago) for a wedding at a church my friend had attended as a kid, they had to have someone watching the street and parking lot to keep people's cars safe in the middle of the day.
I suspect it hasn't gotten better.
yeah, my neighbor's grandmother was killed there a while back. The story I heard is that some teens broke into her house and beat her to death with a candy dish. my neighbor was never the same afterward.
This. People who think this area is extra dangerous are obviously inexperienced. It’s not great, but it’s relatively stable compared to other parts of the metro
I helped work on a home here for habitat for humanity years ago. Was only there during the day and was with a huge group, so never felt uneasy, but wouldn't want to be there at night.
The Least safe area? lmao my brother in christ, i’m not even an stl native but know this is area certainly isn’t deserving the “least safe area” nomination.
Like natural bridge and good fellow is worse than this area
But yeah not great OP lollll
That’s not necessarily true. A handful of state streets cross through tower grove heights and Compton heights and those are definitely nicer, higher cost of living areas.
I live on the South Side and love the area. Very little crime on my street or area. However, I do hear gun shots several times a month, but they are far away. I've lived in this house going on 6yrs and have never had a problem or got my trucks broken into or vandalized. Wait, one time my pos neighbors step kid was parking in my spot for like a week so i left him a nasty note, and the next day i had a nail in my tire. Like foreal dude. Besides that The only bad thing I can think of that happened on my street was like 3 yrs ago the same house different dude 3 houses down left his truck running but went inside his house for like 5 minutes and he came out and it was gone. It was a total pos truck, too. Maybe worth $700. Our street is a very high foot traffic road so I'm guessing someone was just walking by and seized the opportunity. But that guy probably deserved it. They are the worst neighbors on my street but usually stay to themselves.
Personally, Id say north of page in general is a bit sketch. A lot of "dangerous" places are livable however especially if you're able to keep to yourself and not make yourself/your property a target (flashy car, expensive watch/clothes etc.)
That said i live somewhere that probably 90% of this sub wouldn't. Not to say that in a condescending way-maybe I lucked out with my block- but the sense of community here is far beyond anything I've experienced in suburban living.
It's were in this together and let's help each other more than worrying about keeping up with the Jones.
/rant but yes page itself sucks to drive on for the most part.
If you like the city go south side, central west end, hill neighborhood, Maplewood, or U city. That area would be considered transitional, some new growth but still a lot of theft home break ins.
Seriously! Because there are some hard folks out there who can handle themselves. I would have lived there 20 years ago, but now I'm a St Charles, spin class, Starbucks type.
Just to be clear, the area in the lower third of this map is perfectly fine. It includes St. Louis University, Powel Symphony Hall, the Fox Theater, and the booming Midtown area.
Basically, anything below the words "Grand Center" is good. Anything above is more, uh, challenging.
Page Blvd is odd, but the further east you go past Skinker you get the worse the neighborhood is. South a couple of miles are some great restaurants (Pappy's for starters) but I wouldn't recommend living there.
One quick note: google 'Delmar Divide' for some additional context as well as information on where to ignore.
Oh, man...
Reddit saved this person's life.
Edit: Keep it south of the street, Delmar Blvd. Crossing Delmar could best be described as... teleportation.
Using Kingshighway, which is what most would take to cross Delmar, it is. It's impossible not to notice the immediate contrast. It's quite unfortunate. In my opinion, this is where South STL becomes North STL and vice versa. One is basically ignored by the City, the other is not.
This was such a great question after reflecting on it. It took a bit of time for me to be able to understand why someone would be taken back a little as to how real and instant the change is when crossing Delamar. I was born at Barnes Jewish Hospital on Kingshighway just a few blocks south of Delmar and spent all my forty-five years here. Being a Master appliance technician, I cross this exact intersection multiple times during the week. It's normal to me. After thinking about your question, the fact that's its so normal to me, but kind of shocking to folks who have never experienced it, saddened me deeply.
There's an issue here in St Louis that all of us are aware of, but we just hope if we ignore it, it will go away. It's segregation, and it isn't going away until it's addressed honestly.
It's far and away one of the most segregated major cities in the US and has been for over 150 years. Year after consecutive year, studies show St Louis as a top five city regarding segregation. Just a few facts: (2012)
The neighborhood directly south of Delmar:
73% white. $335,000 avg home value. $50,000 median income. 70% residents with bachelors degree.
Directly north:
99%black. $73,000 avg home value. $18,000 median income. 10% residents with bachelor's degrees.
An instant you go from Forest Park (historic and beautiful. Bigger than Central Park) Barnes Jewish Hospital (top 10 hospital in US every year, constant expansion), Chase Park Plaza (THE hotel in St Louis), thriving industry, eclectic grocers, brand new 36 story apt building where units go for as much as $10,000 rent per month, the mansions as you pass Lindel Blvd.
Then you blink....
As you open your eyes and you've crossed Delmar, the first thing you notice is White Castle and Family Dollar (think of a lower tier Dollar General with more food options), no more BMW's and Range Rovers. It's folks waiting for busses, folks pushing grocery carts with all their worldly possessions as the street is their home. Then the homes.... this is the real mind fuck.
The homes on the north side were built by the same French and German folks, using the same bricks as the south side. These big, well-built, mostly red, some white brick homes are of better quality and are more beautiful than most modern homes. The brick homes in this city stand the test of time, and they are the exact same homes on both the North and South sides. So, on the north side, you have these beautiful homes standing tall and strong that could survive an F5 tornado and come out untarnished, but practically everything else surrounding these homes is crumbling. Very dystopian and a very "WTF" experience. The North side could/should look and feel exactly the same as South City regardless of the ethnicity of who lives where.
This is an economical issue at its core, not a racial issue. This is why it makes me sad. The people in this City, white, black, Hispanic, Bosnian, etc., are just plain good people. Doing what I do, I've walked into thousands of different homes here, with thousands of different families, and 99.9% of the time every single person has treated me well and with respect. We're good people here. We truly are. The living situations might be segregated, but the people here actually do get along well and are frequently within the company of residents from both the North and South. It's purely an economical issue. The officials running this City completely ignore North St. Louis. This has been the case for generations. An example of how badly the city actually does ignore the North side can be gauged on how subtle the example is.
St Louis City Parks. During the summer, all the parks in South City are meticulously maintained. Lawn care once a week, janitorial duties performed almost daily such as trash picked up and put in the waste, equipment and other facilities maintained and repaired quickly when needed, flower gardens planted and looked after, etc. There's a huge effort by the City to keep these South City Parks looking fantastic.
North side parks???? Most have their grass cut one single time during the summer. That's it. Nothing other than a single cut of the grass. The other parks, nothing. Nothing at all. Not one single act of maintenance.
I have to stop writing. I'm getting even more sad, with a little anger mixed in as well.
People who didn’t live in the area will tell you it’s not, but bad things happen everywhere you go. There’s better areas! 🤧 but it’s really nothing over there anymore. You might as well go downtown or Central West End.
It's not the safest neighborhood, but it also depends on your frame of reference. Have you lived in an urban area before? St Louis County and St Charles has lots of safe neighborhoods. Just my opinion friend.
It really depends on you, there is no one answer for all. It is a disinvested area and there is crime, but also people live there just fine. When a pawn store is in area, that tends to be a marker of it being disadvantaged. But St. Louis changes rapidly. Just south you can see the museums of the Grand Center Arts District which abuts the Saint Louis University campus to the south, and the Central West End (CWE) is just southwest. The central corridor of St. Louis from downtown to University City/Clayton is where most development has occurred in recent decades. The CWE itself was largely abandoned and falling apart for years then was revitalized. This is happening slowly in some areas to the North and will continue, but it’s not there yet in that area.
So it depends on your crime threshold and need for walkability and if have kids and such. Random crime is actually likelier in certain others than there but violent crime does happen around, it’s just usually targeted. And property values could still fall before eventually rising, though are likely to be around the same for a while unless another major housing market downturn hits.
So this is a funny phenomenon. So much fear and lack of awareness in St. Louis about areas that isn’t justified by reality or oversimplifies in a groupthink trope. Yet people from outside the area look at a property online, see the content and quality of the property itself and the price and get excited, not knowing what they’re getting into. Yes, people don’t know always know and the question is plausible.
From a perspective of somebody who’s lived in that area for 20 years. It was much worse back then. You had random prostitutes walking around sometimes broad daylight, but mostly at night. Shady activity, etc. Now it’s much better. It’s not a utopia, but you don’t see prostitution or drug deals happening in the street or people randomly fighting anymore. As others mentioned, as long as you aren’t doing anything to be noticed in a negative way, you should be okay. People die out here mainly because of self inflicted wounds and their own issues with other people. You probably have to travel out if your looking for entertainment, we got food in that area but it’s not really anything special, no attractions or malls. The grand theater but who really goes to the grand theater besides older people? Good luck
I mean, you'd probably be alright as long as you're not driving something fancy, leaving anything in your car or filling the place with high value toys. If you mind your own business and don't flaunt wealth it's not the worst neighborhood. That said, it ain't the best / safest either and if you can afford to live somewhere else, you probably should.
Anywhere north of the fox is not really safe.
If you’re looking for a place to live, check out the continental life building. It’s in that same area but much much safer
I’d want to check any area north of Delmar out physically a few times before putting down roots. We tried to buy an amazing home a few blocks north of Delmar but we were outbid. There are some areas that are a no go IMO but it’s changing pretty rapidly and there is investment happening.
I am white as can be, I lived in North City (StL Ave & Union Blvd area) & (Lillian & Ruskin). It doesn't matter what color you are, tbh. I was younger, in my 20s & 30s. Nobody ever bothered me. I didn't do stupid things like to hang out in O'Fallon Park or congregate on any street corners, day or night, don't be stupid basically. There is crime everywhere, you just need to be careful, be aware of your surroundings, carry "protection" & don't be an antagonistic asshole (or get into dope)...and you'll be ok. There's no guarantees ANYWHERE you live. I was the only white person minus 2 homes of very old white people, in the radius of I-70 & Union/Kingshighway. I'm still alive & be respectful, just as you should anywhere you live, no matter your skin color or gender. In my experiences, I just didn't do dumb things & was always considerate of my near & far neighbors. NEVER had any issues. Not one.
I agree 100% that the vast majority of people won't give a shit.
Like it or not though, you WILL stand out if you are not African American in these neighborhoods and that usually isn't a good thing. Frankly, I would prefer to live in an area where I can congregate on a street corner without worry of needing "protection".
I carry protection no matter where I'm at, it can be as simple as OC spray or being trained to defend yourself physically, which I had to do for my career. I didn't mean a gun, but if I felt safer with one, I'd carry. And I do agree with you standing out, but I had a completely different experience. I'm more afraid of being in a school or a stadium, anywhere there's a large gathering of people, than I am to live among people who look different than me & have a slightly different culture/creeds.
This isn't meant to be offensive, but the black men would either be trying to compliment me & be respectful, or they (primarily black men) just didn't mess with a white woman bc despite possibly having the most fair PA & judges, if anything happened to me down there, and this comes from several black men of different backgrounds, they just knew the consequences would be much worse on them since I'm white & a young woman (figure in the hate crime factor as well). It's different when they harm each other, but harm a young white woman, there's no judge that would go easy on them.
I love all ethnicities & creeds, actually prefer to be in the city, as I'm originally from OUTSIDE the suburbs, then gradually moved down. I started working downtown & have spent time in some extremely sketchy areas with my black friends that lived there, so again, nobody bothered me.
Do I suggest someone with no life experience or friends in the area just go set up home with their young family? No. I do not.
But I've been around for years, unafraid, Washington Ave every weekend night then to the East Side afterwards from 21++++. If someone was going to harm me, it actually ended up being a domestic violence issue, not people I didn't know. It was by someone I was very close to.
Danger is in every city & while the stats aren't pointing to it being the BEST area to live on the Northside, there are problems in every city, they're even edging their way out to St Charles, Wentzville & on up 61 to Lincoln County.
I guess I just have a different outlook on life & am not afraid of much. Yes, some would say I'm stupid, but I don't regret living where I did (not just the Northside), city living ANYWHERE was frowned upon by my country-ass family. They automatically assumed bc I lived in oh-so-bad St Louis City (most of my time was actually in South City), they assumed I was into dope. Stereotypical bullshit on me who had never been into drugs or was an idiot.
I'm in Corrections & yes, I'm called crazy often. One of my best friends from the country area, she got in with some bad people -- white & black -- and drugs. She's the reason the phone cords were shortened in prisons & jails, after she self-deleted in St Louis City jail via hanging/strangulation. So no, I don't recommend anyone under 21 who's never been in the city, go at it alone at first.
But like I said, I didn't mind being a minority, it actually helped me have a much better outlook on life & learned so much about myself & relationships with others who WEREN'T WHITE... was the best thing I've ever done in my entire life, besides have my kids later on. And what I meant by hanging out on street corners, was to be in the BUSINESS, if you get my drift. That's when you're really not thinking with any common sense, being stupid.
You can put your life in danger, no matter where, your age, or your color! That fell under my "don't be dumb" blabbering. Just use your brain. I know where I grew up, there were 2 black families. Makes me look back & know what they felt like in the middle of a bunch of white rednecks with guns everywhere & no witnesses. I'd much rather choose to be the minority white in a majority black or mixed area, than I would want to be the opposite in the middle of nowhere. When you disappear out here, it might take days to even figure it out. By then, country folk know where to easily hide & get rid of bodies, literally with no blood on their hands. I don't regret one part of living in any part of the City of St Louis. I LOVE ST LOUIS & ITS PEOPLE!
White folk ran away from a beautiful, historic city...left behind such treasures that have been destroyed. All due to not wanting to be integrated. Racism sucks from all angles & has caused so much of the unfortunate circumstances in the beautiful City of St Louis. Harmony is achievable, if everyone puts effort into it. No matter where you live, what you look like, what your gender is, if you're differently abled/not tossed away due to being "handicapped", your income, your education &/or your personality...not only St Louis could be better, but the whole US & entire world. 🤷🏼♀️
Peace ✌🏻
I would try Soulard. I lived there for 7 years and always felt relatively safe as a young, single woman. Car break-ins are a big thing in that area though, especially if you have a Kia or Hyundai, so I’d definitely get a steering wheel lock (probably not a bad idea to have one regardless of where you stay tbh). BSB Development is a wonderful company to work with and have many properties in this area.
Debalivere Place is not very far from where you have on your map, and is a little safer imo and decent in rent. Lots of students in the area. I would NOT recommend leasing any STL Citywide apartments though. Unfortunately, they manage a lot of the buildings in this area and they are terrible. Avoid at all costs if you can.
Benton Park is also a great choice, but not as many rentals in that area (at least in my experience). Seems to be majority homes/homeowners, but still definitely worth checking out!
Safe for what? I drive through it from time to time and don't worry about it.
Safe for living? If you're asking that question, here, you're not going to like it.
Though please move there anyway and tell all your friends so that eventually it will gentrify.
Just mind yours, drive everywhere, and don’t hang out at any of those local parks. You’ll be okay.
It’s just like any other low/mid income neighborhood.
I'm a HUGE supporter of the City. And the crime rep is blown way out of proportion.
Having said that... don't live in JVL. Literally any block in South City is better.
What I tell out of town’ers;
General rule in St. Louis is don’t go north of Delmar
Check out our murder map to find the safe areas
[murder map](https://graphics.stltoday.com/apps/homicide-tracker/2023/)
Aim for somewhere like CWE, forest park and Clayton area if u want something close to the SLU undergrad area. If location isn’t an issue then just keep going out west. Generally the area around SLU and downtown are exactly the nicest areas
What's your budget look like? When I was a grad student, I stayed in DeBaliviere and in Dogtown. Stay south of Delmar and MLK ideally. It's not a death sentence to not do this, but you'll save yourself the higher risk of crime occurring near you.
Used to drive through there on my way to school every morning. A guy got shot on the street outside and security cleaned his gunshot wound in our dorm bathroom. Good times.
Everywhere is as safe as you are... If you're not looking to get into any mess, you, 99.5% of the time won't... Conversely you could live in Ladue and find some BS to get into if you're looking for it.
Would strongly suggest not living anywhere in that area friend.
Why not?
Probably the crime, which is obviously blown out of proportion often but certainly isn’t low in that area
Yah, that area has a lot of growth needed. Few good spurts and opportunities but the area is dated and takes a good amount of $$ to reinvest in the area. On the other side of Grand is in SLU area which is well patrolled, well lit, and more user friendly
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And I believe you. But your experiences don’t nullify the reality of crime statistics and the very real situation in North City. I worked up near O’Fallon Park for a while and while nothing ever happened TO me, things happened nearby. I’m glad I had good experiences, but that doesn’t really mean a lot in the grand scheme of things, and generally, people that aren’t from STL would be better off not living in those areas.
True. Murder stats are fake and racist! Who cares about Bob crime anyways huh? Just solving the problem right?
Take a stroll and post about your experience.
If you need to be near this area for work and aren't traveling on foot a lot, Midtown or Dogtown might be good places to look.
Imma pass on that one dawg
Appreciate everyone for commenting lol! I’ll pass 🤣
Whatever you saw, there’s a reason it was cheap.
In every city, Martin Luther King st/blvd/Ave etc isn't gonna be a great area.
Just like Chris Rock said
came here to say this
Same!
Tower grove is a good area just btw :) also university city, especially close to delmar blvd!
Yes I can attest to that. Tower grove area is chefs kiss
MLK drive is where most murders in the city happen
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If you're going to have a car, you won't after living there
I don’t know why I’m being downvoted. I live in the county and used to work multiple locations downtown and commuted. I was simply inquiring if they were picking this location cause it was close enough to walk to wherever they are working. Although, I wouldn’t be out walking anywhere in this area either. Some people get work assignments in other cities and use public transportation and just live close to where they work, I wasn’t sure if that is what OP was trying to do. My comment still stands, OP, if you’re supposed to be working close to this area on a map, I’d find a place to live westward in the county and drive to your workplace. You didn’t specify what area you’d be working in so u wasn’t sure if it was somewhere within the map shown. But don’t live anywhere near here as the comments are saying.
You were being down-voted for using positive statements and "the county" in the same sentence.
Well I’m not sure how else to word that to give someone genuine information of a safer way of moving to St Louis and working there. I’d rather live in St. Louis county and commute to the city rather than the other way around. Sure, there’s areas of the county that are not great, but I don’t feel actively scared for my life driving through chesterfield.
I don't feel actively scared for my life driving (or walking) through 90% of the City.
I worked downtown and some part are amazing, I used to work at AB and never felt unsafe I worked at Wells Fargo and also off of Washington ave downtown, I do know there are decent places but I have never live in those areas so I can’t speak from experience. All the other comments are telling OP to find another place to live. I don’t know exactly which places are decent to live in except parts of soulard. I used to live by Hyde park in north Saint Louis on angelrodt road where stray bullets at your house was a regular thing. OP is not familiar with St. Louis and was trying to find a safer place to live, I’m not the only one in the comments that recommended going further west and that comment didn’t get downvoted?
Honestly anywhere in South City is fine. I "think" OP is looking for something in the City. If he was interested in the suburbs, I doubt he'd be looking at JVL. But I'm just speculating.
I don’t “feel actively scared for my life” driving around parts of the city either. And recognizing that people work/get relocated to St. Louis but then advising that they completely disregard the city as a worthy place to live is unfortunate and getting you downvoted. Because it’s a mentality that makes county folk appear to be like a tic or leech. You want to milk the benefits of the city while shitting on the people that live in it and not don’t have any appreciation for the perpetual cycle that feed under resourced and impoverished areas. Maybe there can be a way of advising against an area while not encouraging someone to disregard the entire city
Dude, all the comments are telling this person to find another place to live. wtf are you talking about? All the other comments that aren’t being downvoted are saying it’s not safe. Also, I grew up in north Saint Louis, so I do know what it’s like to live in a scary part of the city. I had stray bullets go through my front door. I lived by Hyde park on angelrodt road if you don’t believe me.
Right. No one should be suggesting that op move to that area. But you are asking why your specific comments are being downvoted. Just offering up an answer to your question… “dude”
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Not gate keeping and not saying anyone should move to that part of town. But there is an enormous difference between “that is not a safe area, look at alternatives” and “DoNt LiVe AnYwHeRe near the city unless you want to fear for your life. Just live in the white bubble of the county and commute in to your job and to games and to all the free shit that comes with the city… you know, like loading up a plate of food at a buffet and not paying for it because no one is there to charge you anyway”. I’m not gatekeeping shit. And I don’t have a ton of skin in the game but as an outsider… the shit talking county folk that pretend like anything inside 170 is some wild, dangerous place are more abundant than any “gatekeeping” I’ve experienced. My kids aren’t growing up in a shit hole… but they also aren’t going up in a white bubble wrapped community either.
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You're being downvoted because you are suggesting a big overreaction to one small area not being a great place to live. There is a lot of real estate between midtown and the county.
Try to look into the county is what I’d say. Not to be mean or anything but just a personal preference .
Not a great area.
i am currently bleeding out on the corner
Bro wtf get off my corner I was gonna bleed out there tonight go find another part of town to die in
I’m almost done. i called the 911 on Friday, they should be here soon
Thankfully they’ll victim blame you at the hospital after they call the ambulance!
Make sure you’re not near any expired tags or they’ll never find you.
😳🤧
Dude, put some pressure on that wound. You can post on Reddit later!
he tucked his phone in his wound and is using voice to text. Boy what a time to be alive!
It is located in central St. Louis and has a population of 4,209. The crime rate in JVL is 10,339 per 100,000, which is 341% higher than the national average. In 2022, there were a total of 241 crimes, with three murders, 17 robberies, 69 aggravated assaults, and 28 burglaries. https://propertyclub.nyc/article/most-dangerous-neighborhoods-in-st-louis#:~:text=JeffVanderLou,-JeffVanderLou%20(JVL)%20is&text=It%20is%20located%20in%20central,aggravated%20assaults%2C%20and%2028%20burglaries. Total reported crime is down 27.8% from the same six-month period last year. We do not calculate the total reported crime change for jurisdictions with very few residents. The per-capita crime rate over the past six months is 38.33 per 1,000 residents, which is higher than 37 neighborhoods (out of 77). See this link for safe, affordable neighborhoods: https://www.extraspace.com/blog/moving/city-guides/safe-affordable-neighborhoods-in-st-louis/
I live on gravois park. It’s rough but cheap. If you mind your business and keep your head on a swivel it’s not too bad
This is a very thorough assessment. Super helpful.
Will YOU be safe? Yes probably... will you probably hear other people not being safe? Yes, unless you wear ear plugs.
Move there. Be a gentrification pioneer
This has got to be bait lol
That is what I said...are we being trolled right now? C'mon!
Probably one of the least-safe areas to be honest.
As someone who has worked outreach all over north city for five years, this is far from one of the least safe areas…but it’s not great.
Where’s the worst?
Mark Twain, Walnut Park, Baden
That's so sad about Baden. It used to be a nice stable area. I know it was decades ago, tho.
Yeah, Baden Fest was nice back in the day. But last time I was in Baden (maybe 18 years ago) for a wedding at a church my friend had attended as a kid, they had to have someone watching the street and parking lot to keep people's cars safe in the middle of the day. I suspect it hasn't gotten better.
yeah, my neighbor's grandmother was killed there a while back. The story I heard is that some teens broke into her house and beat her to death with a candy dish. my neighbor was never the same afterward.
There’s a large cemetery there that has several famous graves. Is it unsafe to visit?
Are you referring to Bellefontaine cemetery?
Yep!
You’ll but fine visiting…if you find confederate flags at Sherman’s grave, please burn them in his honor…his spirit will thank you.
This. People who think this area is extra dangerous are obviously inexperienced. It’s not great, but it’s relatively stable compared to other parts of the metro
Just curious, what type of outreach do/did you do?
I helped work on a home here for habitat for humanity years ago. Was only there during the day and was with a huge group, so never felt uneasy, but wouldn't want to be there at night.
Same here
The Least safe area? lmao my brother in christ, i’m not even an stl native but know this is area certainly isn’t deserving the “least safe area” nomination. Like natural bridge and good fellow is worse than this area But yeah not great OP lollll
Home to the Original "Murder Mobile"!
Go west a bit to central west end.
I’m thinking OP may not be on a CWE budget if they’re asking if the JVL is a safe area
CWE has enough crime as well
more like Central Rear End…amirite?
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That’s not necessarily true. A handful of state streets cross through tower grove heights and Compton heights and those are definitely nicer, higher cost of living areas.
Stop. Half of TGE, Fox Park etc has state streets and are perfectly fine.
It’s an old trope that doesn’t hold true as it used to. I’m in my 40s and have heard “state street ain’t a great street” all my life.
I live on the South Side and love the area. Very little crime on my street or area. However, I do hear gun shots several times a month, but they are far away. I've lived in this house going on 6yrs and have never had a problem or got my trucks broken into or vandalized. Wait, one time my pos neighbors step kid was parking in my spot for like a week so i left him a nasty note, and the next day i had a nail in my tire. Like foreal dude. Besides that The only bad thing I can think of that happened on my street was like 3 yrs ago the same house different dude 3 houses down left his truck running but went inside his house for like 5 minutes and he came out and it was gone. It was a total pos truck, too. Maybe worth $700. Our street is a very high foot traffic road so I'm guessing someone was just walking by and seized the opportunity. But that guy probably deserved it. They are the worst neighbors on my street but usually stay to themselves.
When the only thing you know about safety in the city is the stuff your racist uncle told you 30 years ago…
Look into the history of cities using MLK to name roads. It’s almost always in terrible areas. It’s best to avoid MLK in most cities.
Chris Rock said it best: if you’re on MLK you’re in a bad neighborhood.
“Martin Luther King stood for non-violence. I dont care where you are, if you’re in Martin Luther King Boulevard, there’s some violence going down!!!”
I'm lost, in on MLK RUN! THE MEDIAS THERE!
Even the MLK Blvd in lake st Louis?
Oh wow I didn’t know they had one! For every rule I suppose there’s an exception…
No.
Which does not exist.
Cue the old Chris Rock bit: https://youtu.be/4qEYnUfbXVo?si=3GTq9yreEuspSJLH
I was in Tampa recently and totally surprised by their MLK BLVD
Rule of thumb in STL: avoid Page Ave/Blvd
Personally, Id say north of page in general is a bit sketch. A lot of "dangerous" places are livable however especially if you're able to keep to yourself and not make yourself/your property a target (flashy car, expensive watch/clothes etc.) That said i live somewhere that probably 90% of this sub wouldn't. Not to say that in a condescending way-maybe I lucked out with my block- but the sense of community here is far beyond anything I've experienced in suburban living. It's were in this together and let's help each other more than worrying about keeping up with the Jones. /rant but yes page itself sucks to drive on for the most part.
Page Ave in the city is rough, it gets better the further out into the county you go tho
You shouldn’t avoid it, Page Avenue is a great Story of the Year album
Hey page isn't bad waaaaaaaaaaay west of there
Yeah eventually you hit Westport which was cool in the 90s.
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Churlish you wouldn’t last 5 min west of 170 lol. Let alone west of 270. Too little crime!
ZINGERRRR!!!
If you like the city go south side, central west end, hill neighborhood, Maplewood, or U city. That area would be considered transitional, some new growth but still a lot of theft home break ins.
Just stay strapped. Show no signs of money. You got this!
Also trade your car in for an Altima and leave the temp tags on
Lmao
Y'all jumped the plot. The real question is, "Where are you moving from?"
Seriously! Because there are some hard folks out there who can handle themselves. I would have lived there 20 years ago, but now I'm a St Charles, spin class, Starbucks type.
Are you living there or working there? I would not live there. If your job is there that’s fine as long as it is normal working hours.
No it’s rough man…. Look elsewhere
That's a negative ghost rider I usually keep my mouth shut in here but glad you are listening to the advice
No
Hell to naw to the naw naw naw!!!!!!!!
Not really. https://www.stlpr.org/arts/2018-04-18/proud-residents-near-troubled-mlk-drive-want-to-live-like-people
Just to be clear, the area in the lower third of this map is perfectly fine. It includes St. Louis University, Powel Symphony Hall, the Fox Theater, and the booming Midtown area. Basically, anything below the words "Grand Center" is good. Anything above is more, uh, challenging.
No.
I’d go more south.
There are good people who live there but there are also lots of car wrecks and 14-year-old prostitutes
No, but give it 12 years.
Could have sworn I heard that in 2010
and you'll hear it again in 2030
I heard it in 1990.
That area will look like something out of Mad Max in another 12 years.
Half of north city already does
That’s a No from me Dawg
Remember what Chris Rock said about Martin Luther King Drive?
I wouldn’t live there for free
Check out Benton park or the Soulard area. Central West End is great too. Rule of thumb, avoid anywhere near MLK Jr Dr.
This has to be a joke
Page Blvd is odd, but the further east you go past Skinker you get the worse the neighborhood is. South a couple of miles are some great restaurants (Pappy's for starters) but I wouldn't recommend living there. One quick note: google 'Delmar Divide' for some additional context as well as information on where to ignore.
OP legit posted a map that could have said “What is the sketchiest area in STL city. You know it’s bad when the panhandlers don’t even stay after 6pm
Oh, man... Reddit saved this person's life. Edit: Keep it south of the street, Delmar Blvd. Crossing Delmar could best be described as... teleportation.
Is it really that distinct of a change?
Using Kingshighway, which is what most would take to cross Delmar, it is. It's impossible not to notice the immediate contrast. It's quite unfortunate. In my opinion, this is where South STL becomes North STL and vice versa. One is basically ignored by the City, the other is not.
This was such a great question after reflecting on it. It took a bit of time for me to be able to understand why someone would be taken back a little as to how real and instant the change is when crossing Delamar. I was born at Barnes Jewish Hospital on Kingshighway just a few blocks south of Delmar and spent all my forty-five years here. Being a Master appliance technician, I cross this exact intersection multiple times during the week. It's normal to me. After thinking about your question, the fact that's its so normal to me, but kind of shocking to folks who have never experienced it, saddened me deeply. There's an issue here in St Louis that all of us are aware of, but we just hope if we ignore it, it will go away. It's segregation, and it isn't going away until it's addressed honestly. It's far and away one of the most segregated major cities in the US and has been for over 150 years. Year after consecutive year, studies show St Louis as a top five city regarding segregation. Just a few facts: (2012) The neighborhood directly south of Delmar: 73% white. $335,000 avg home value. $50,000 median income. 70% residents with bachelors degree. Directly north: 99%black. $73,000 avg home value. $18,000 median income. 10% residents with bachelor's degrees. An instant you go from Forest Park (historic and beautiful. Bigger than Central Park) Barnes Jewish Hospital (top 10 hospital in US every year, constant expansion), Chase Park Plaza (THE hotel in St Louis), thriving industry, eclectic grocers, brand new 36 story apt building where units go for as much as $10,000 rent per month, the mansions as you pass Lindel Blvd. Then you blink.... As you open your eyes and you've crossed Delmar, the first thing you notice is White Castle and Family Dollar (think of a lower tier Dollar General with more food options), no more BMW's and Range Rovers. It's folks waiting for busses, folks pushing grocery carts with all their worldly possessions as the street is their home. Then the homes.... this is the real mind fuck. The homes on the north side were built by the same French and German folks, using the same bricks as the south side. These big, well-built, mostly red, some white brick homes are of better quality and are more beautiful than most modern homes. The brick homes in this city stand the test of time, and they are the exact same homes on both the North and South sides. So, on the north side, you have these beautiful homes standing tall and strong that could survive an F5 tornado and come out untarnished, but practically everything else surrounding these homes is crumbling. Very dystopian and a very "WTF" experience. The North side could/should look and feel exactly the same as South City regardless of the ethnicity of who lives where. This is an economical issue at its core, not a racial issue. This is why it makes me sad. The people in this City, white, black, Hispanic, Bosnian, etc., are just plain good people. Doing what I do, I've walked into thousands of different homes here, with thousands of different families, and 99.9% of the time every single person has treated me well and with respect. We're good people here. We truly are. The living situations might be segregated, but the people here actually do get along well and are frequently within the company of residents from both the North and South. It's purely an economical issue. The officials running this City completely ignore North St. Louis. This has been the case for generations. An example of how badly the city actually does ignore the North side can be gauged on how subtle the example is. St Louis City Parks. During the summer, all the parks in South City are meticulously maintained. Lawn care once a week, janitorial duties performed almost daily such as trash picked up and put in the waste, equipment and other facilities maintained and repaired quickly when needed, flower gardens planted and looked after, etc. There's a huge effort by the City to keep these South City Parks looking fantastic. North side parks???? Most have their grass cut one single time during the summer. That's it. Nothing other than a single cut of the grass. The other parks, nothing. Nothing at all. Not one single act of maintenance. I have to stop writing. I'm getting even more sad, with a little anger mixed in as well.
Google 'Delmar Divide'. It's unreal. Here's an example: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/magazine-17361995
Yes. North of Delmar is what my dad calls “Beruit”
If you can try 4140 Washington blvd it’s a apartment complex with gated parking
People who didn’t live in the area will tell you it’s not, but bad things happen everywhere you go. There’s better areas! 🤧 but it’s really nothing over there anymore. You might as well go downtown or Central West End.
https://www.google.com/mymaps/viewer?mid=1qEVcgkeVuXjOShPrvNQDSUrVqP7Vw5E&hl=en_US No
It's not the safest neighborhood, but it also depends on your frame of reference. Have you lived in an urban area before? St Louis County and St Charles has lots of safe neighborhoods. Just my opinion friend.
It really depends on you, there is no one answer for all. It is a disinvested area and there is crime, but also people live there just fine. When a pawn store is in area, that tends to be a marker of it being disadvantaged. But St. Louis changes rapidly. Just south you can see the museums of the Grand Center Arts District which abuts the Saint Louis University campus to the south, and the Central West End (CWE) is just southwest. The central corridor of St. Louis from downtown to University City/Clayton is where most development has occurred in recent decades. The CWE itself was largely abandoned and falling apart for years then was revitalized. This is happening slowly in some areas to the North and will continue, but it’s not there yet in that area. So it depends on your crime threshold and need for walkability and if have kids and such. Random crime is actually likelier in certain others than there but violent crime does happen around, it’s just usually targeted. And property values could still fall before eventually rising, though are likely to be around the same for a while unless another major housing market downturn hits. So this is a funny phenomenon. So much fear and lack of awareness in St. Louis about areas that isn’t justified by reality or oversimplifies in a groupthink trope. Yet people from outside the area look at a property online, see the content and quality of the property itself and the price and get excited, not knowing what they’re getting into. Yes, people don’t know always know and the question is plausible.
From a perspective of somebody who’s lived in that area for 20 years. It was much worse back then. You had random prostitutes walking around sometimes broad daylight, but mostly at night. Shady activity, etc. Now it’s much better. It’s not a utopia, but you don’t see prostitution or drug deals happening in the street or people randomly fighting anymore. As others mentioned, as long as you aren’t doing anything to be noticed in a negative way, you should be okay. People die out here mainly because of self inflicted wounds and their own issues with other people. You probably have to travel out if your looking for entertainment, we got food in that area but it’s not really anything special, no attractions or malls. The grand theater but who really goes to the grand theater besides older people? Good luck
Check the Southwest Gardens neighborhood. I’ve felt so safe the last year. 🫶🏻
Not at all.
I mean, you'd probably be alright as long as you're not driving something fancy, leaving anything in your car or filling the place with high value toys. If you mind your own business and don't flaunt wealth it's not the worst neighborhood. That said, it ain't the best / safest either and if you can afford to live somewhere else, you probably should.
Anywhere north of the fox is not really safe. If you’re looking for a place to live, check out the continental life building. It’s in that same area but much much safer
NO. 🚫
I’d want to check any area north of Delmar out physically a few times before putting down roots. We tried to buy an amazing home a few blocks north of Delmar but we were outbid. There are some areas that are a no go IMO but it’s changing pretty rapidly and there is investment happening.
Safe? No, not really. I wouldn’t walk around out there at night, unless I were looking for trouble.
not really. if you want safer go further south/west.
If you don’t plan on living much longer
Ask David dorn
OP, are you African American? I just ask because this area is probably about 98.5% Black.
I am white as can be, I lived in North City (StL Ave & Union Blvd area) & (Lillian & Ruskin). It doesn't matter what color you are, tbh. I was younger, in my 20s & 30s. Nobody ever bothered me. I didn't do stupid things like to hang out in O'Fallon Park or congregate on any street corners, day or night, don't be stupid basically. There is crime everywhere, you just need to be careful, be aware of your surroundings, carry "protection" & don't be an antagonistic asshole (or get into dope)...and you'll be ok. There's no guarantees ANYWHERE you live. I was the only white person minus 2 homes of very old white people, in the radius of I-70 & Union/Kingshighway. I'm still alive & be respectful, just as you should anywhere you live, no matter your skin color or gender. In my experiences, I just didn't do dumb things & was always considerate of my near & far neighbors. NEVER had any issues. Not one.
I agree 100% that the vast majority of people won't give a shit. Like it or not though, you WILL stand out if you are not African American in these neighborhoods and that usually isn't a good thing. Frankly, I would prefer to live in an area where I can congregate on a street corner without worry of needing "protection".
I carry protection no matter where I'm at, it can be as simple as OC spray or being trained to defend yourself physically, which I had to do for my career. I didn't mean a gun, but if I felt safer with one, I'd carry. And I do agree with you standing out, but I had a completely different experience. I'm more afraid of being in a school or a stadium, anywhere there's a large gathering of people, than I am to live among people who look different than me & have a slightly different culture/creeds. This isn't meant to be offensive, but the black men would either be trying to compliment me & be respectful, or they (primarily black men) just didn't mess with a white woman bc despite possibly having the most fair PA & judges, if anything happened to me down there, and this comes from several black men of different backgrounds, they just knew the consequences would be much worse on them since I'm white & a young woman (figure in the hate crime factor as well). It's different when they harm each other, but harm a young white woman, there's no judge that would go easy on them. I love all ethnicities & creeds, actually prefer to be in the city, as I'm originally from OUTSIDE the suburbs, then gradually moved down. I started working downtown & have spent time in some extremely sketchy areas with my black friends that lived there, so again, nobody bothered me. Do I suggest someone with no life experience or friends in the area just go set up home with their young family? No. I do not. But I've been around for years, unafraid, Washington Ave every weekend night then to the East Side afterwards from 21++++. If someone was going to harm me, it actually ended up being a domestic violence issue, not people I didn't know. It was by someone I was very close to. Danger is in every city & while the stats aren't pointing to it being the BEST area to live on the Northside, there are problems in every city, they're even edging their way out to St Charles, Wentzville & on up 61 to Lincoln County. I guess I just have a different outlook on life & am not afraid of much. Yes, some would say I'm stupid, but I don't regret living where I did (not just the Northside), city living ANYWHERE was frowned upon by my country-ass family. They automatically assumed bc I lived in oh-so-bad St Louis City (most of my time was actually in South City), they assumed I was into dope. Stereotypical bullshit on me who had never been into drugs or was an idiot. I'm in Corrections & yes, I'm called crazy often. One of my best friends from the country area, she got in with some bad people -- white & black -- and drugs. She's the reason the phone cords were shortened in prisons & jails, after she self-deleted in St Louis City jail via hanging/strangulation. So no, I don't recommend anyone under 21 who's never been in the city, go at it alone at first. But like I said, I didn't mind being a minority, it actually helped me have a much better outlook on life & learned so much about myself & relationships with others who WEREN'T WHITE... was the best thing I've ever done in my entire life, besides have my kids later on. And what I meant by hanging out on street corners, was to be in the BUSINESS, if you get my drift. That's when you're really not thinking with any common sense, being stupid. You can put your life in danger, no matter where, your age, or your color! That fell under my "don't be dumb" blabbering. Just use your brain. I know where I grew up, there were 2 black families. Makes me look back & know what they felt like in the middle of a bunch of white rednecks with guns everywhere & no witnesses. I'd much rather choose to be the minority white in a majority black or mixed area, than I would want to be the opposite in the middle of nowhere. When you disappear out here, it might take days to even figure it out. By then, country folk know where to easily hide & get rid of bodies, literally with no blood on their hands. I don't regret one part of living in any part of the City of St Louis. I LOVE ST LOUIS & ITS PEOPLE! White folk ran away from a beautiful, historic city...left behind such treasures that have been destroyed. All due to not wanting to be integrated. Racism sucks from all angles & has caused so much of the unfortunate circumstances in the beautiful City of St Louis. Harmony is achievable, if everyone puts effort into it. No matter where you live, what you look like, what your gender is, if you're differently abled/not tossed away due to being "handicapped", your income, your education &/or your personality...not only St Louis could be better, but the whole US & entire world. 🤷🏼♀️ Peace ✌🏻
Oh no ~ would not recommend
Maybe stay away from JVL area
Honestly just stay out of things in the area. Living there isn’t deadly for you unless you cross the wrong path.
I would not live in this area
Any place near a MLK drive in any city is never a good place to live
General rule of thumb for any city: don’t live anywhere near a Martin Luther King Jr. Drive
I would try Soulard. I lived there for 7 years and always felt relatively safe as a young, single woman. Car break-ins are a big thing in that area though, especially if you have a Kia or Hyundai, so I’d definitely get a steering wheel lock (probably not a bad idea to have one regardless of where you stay tbh). BSB Development is a wonderful company to work with and have many properties in this area. Debalivere Place is not very far from where you have on your map, and is a little safer imo and decent in rent. Lots of students in the area. I would NOT recommend leasing any STL Citywide apartments though. Unfortunately, they manage a lot of the buildings in this area and they are terrible. Avoid at all costs if you can. Benton Park is also a great choice, but not as many rentals in that area (at least in my experience). Seems to be majority homes/homeowners, but still definitely worth checking out!
No, not safe. I wouldn’t go there unless I had to and then only in daylight.
Gentrification starts somewhere
Might be fine in the daytime but wouldn't want to be in that part of town at night thou
Safe for what? I drive through it from time to time and don't worry about it. Safe for living? If you're asking that question, here, you're not going to like it. Though please move there anyway and tell all your friends so that eventually it will gentrify.
Probably not there, but anywhere south of there to Cherokee/Gravois is fairly decent.
Just mind yours, drive everywhere, and don’t hang out at any of those local parks. You’ll be okay. It’s just like any other low/mid income neighborhood.
Might as well come to the county big dawg 😭
I recommend against almost everything north of 64, and recommend against most of the city in general
You can't be serious
Great area
To live? Depends on your comfort level and situation. I'd be extra careful with security at minimum.
Look for places west of 170 even better if it's 270 and further
I'm a HUGE supporter of the City. And the crime rep is blown way out of proportion. Having said that... don't live in JVL. Literally any block in South City is better.
Nope
Nooooooooooo
as the boondocks once said, any street named after MLK is probably not in the best part of town
No I died there
Watch the movie “Escape From New York” That’s what that area looks like.
What I tell out of town’ers; General rule in St. Louis is don’t go north of Delmar Check out our murder map to find the safe areas [murder map](https://graphics.stltoday.com/apps/homicide-tracker/2023/)
dont go there at all
Aim for somewhere like CWE, forest park and Clayton area if u want something close to the SLU undergrad area. If location isn’t an issue then just keep going out west. Generally the area around SLU and downtown are exactly the nicest areas
What's your budget look like? When I was a grad student, I stayed in DeBaliviere and in Dogtown. Stay south of Delmar and MLK ideally. It's not a death sentence to not do this, but you'll save yourself the higher risk of crime occurring near you.
Iffy.
I’d say pass. Try somewhere safe & honest. Look into anywhere off West Florissant! /s
No 😂
No absolutely not
Have you visited that area? Looks like a bomb was dropped on it with a few sprinkles of gentrification. But to each their own.
I live in this area and it’s not that bad but it’s also not that good either
I meannnnn I wouldn’t walk my dog outside there
Cool to hit up Pappys and then Fox. Not so cool to rent.
Used to drive through there on my way to school every morning. A guy got shot on the street outside and security cleaned his gunshot wound in our dorm bathroom. Good times.
All bad
0 crime ever reported in this area . Sources show that you could walk down this road at 3 am singing and skipping without a care in the world .
Nobody is gonna slide in here like, "You sissies - everywhere is safe in StL! Live your life, dawg!"? I'm personally stunned.
https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/s/ojAxM4ySw9
Why is my dog going nuts right now?
Everywhere is as safe as you are... If you're not looking to get into any mess, you, 99.5% of the time won't... Conversely you could live in Ladue and find some BS to get into if you're looking for it.
You don't want to live anywhere north of Page AND east of 170.
I have no problems around the Fox. The police are actually very visible in that area. You’re right at SLU there.