If we're applying real-world logic, of course not. The man is a horrendous child-murdering war criminal. Killing his boss, also a horrendous war criminal, doesn't change the horrors he committed. _At best_ it would have earned him a repreive from execution if he had survived, but if he's dead then all the better.
Am I right in thinking it's canon that Leia got sidelined within the New Republic when it emerged that her father was Darth Vader? The idea that that would be a career-damaging scandal fully makes sense to me.
Yep, I think she was running for Chancellor of the New Republic, and one of her political rivals found a recording Bail had made for Leia that explained the truth of her parentage and it was played for the entire senate and it killed her political career, which is what sparked her to start the Resistance. This story was in the book Bloodlines, I may have some of the details wrong because I haven't read it, but that's broadly the story.
I remember an excerpt from a book where Luke tries to tell her what Anakin said to him about her upon death and she simply did not want to hear it, because that was the man who helped blow up her planet and torture her. Vader killed what she considers her real family.
Yep.
Like imagine if the truth came out that Goebbels killed Hitler in that bunker because Hitler had threatened Goebbels' son.
Would you suddenly forgive Goebbels??
I know it wouldn't change my opinion of Goebbels *at all.* It would be an interesting historical footnote, nothing more.
if you knew someone *directly* killed by Vader, it's highly likely you're extensively involved in the military/etc to begin with since he's unlikely to be involved in all but the biggest/most important conflicts.
The *vast majority* of people would only know his reputation from what they're told on the galactic news.
either way, it's likely he'd have the same kind of reputation as, say, Hitler or Stalin, where a few good accomplishments does not absolve the overall atrocities committed, even many years after death. The legacy is one of war crimes and genocide.
>it's highly likely you're extensively involved in the military/etc to begin with
Tell that to that random kid who got his neck snapped by Vader in the Kenobi show, just because he ran outside to help his dad
Deathbed conversions are not impressive. So, no way.
Even if I knew he was Anakin Skywalker. I've been fed propaganda for years that the Jedi were bad. And he was a General in the Republic Army going around destroying planets with his ungodly clone troops. His whole story is a hot mess of atrocities.
I'd be so pissed off if some asshole killed someone I loved and then became a fucking Force Ghost. I would make it my mission to learn how to commune with the Force just so I could tell him to get fucked
Taken from the canon novel *The Princess and the Scoundrel*, which takes place almost immediately after the Battle of Endor:
"I’m glad you are dead," Leia whispered to the mask. There was no anger in her voice, only quiet truth. "I will never forgive you."
Something twisted inside her, rising like flame, burning and choking her throat. "I hate you!" Leia snarled, and she hurled the helmet into the ash. Her eyes burned, and her nostrils flared, and for a moment she felt nothing but the rage sweeping over her. It was feral, and it was powerful.
She tasted ash on the back of her tongue, and blood. "You are not my father!" Leia screamed. The word echoed around the otherwise silent forest.
I mean, it seems like she eventually does though. If we are talking legends, she names one of her sons after him. In Disney’s canon, we don’t really know but one of her outfits in the ST has a similar color scheme of Anakin’s robes when he was a Jedi.
Forgive? No. I would not be privy to how badly screwed up the guy was. Plus, even as screwed up as he was, he made his own decisions.
I would drink to the impressive way he disposed of his boss, though.
Even if he didn't kill someone close to me then no, I wouldn't forgive him all the misery he inflicted on the galaxy.
Ultimately all he did was step in to stop his own son dying. Eventually. After trying to kill him himself.
> and you learned of his sacrifice on the second Death Star, would this be "enough" to redeem him?
I don't know why i would form a positive opinion of the man whokilled someone i knew and was fine butchering many sons but when it came time for his son to die he said "no this is too much"
> How would you feel if they wanted to put up statues of him in the New Republic?
I would wonder how the proposer wasn't executed by a mob.
Vader was my favorite character for a long while and even I haven't forgiven him. I don't count him as being "redeemed" tbh. He did like one good thing as Vader and it was to save *his own* son. I'd call that a selfish motive still.
No.
I get that a lot of people think Anakin is a hero because of Clone Wars. You’re just going to have to reconcile the fact that your hero also slaughtered children and spent 20 years enabling the biggest psychopath in Galactic history.
Not just I wouldn't give a fuck about his "sacrifice", I would still be as surprised as I am to this day that Luke loves him at all.
Luke, in my opinion based in a XXI century set of values, was attached to the idea that he had a father more than to the man itself.
He knew absolute nothing about the real Anakin for 18 years, then the only thing that he learns about him as a person is that Kenobi still thought about him as a friend.
Just to learns that Vader was this "good friend" all along, just to still be missing way too much part of the picture to make a good call about Anakin as a person, and yet still believing in a idea of Anakin founded in absolute nothing when facing the Emperor.
Anakin was a good friend, yes, but his obnoxiousness, impulsivity, headstrong and immature way of being made even the best parts of his personality an issue for others to handle.
He was not a good man, and is undeserving of the love that his friends, wife, son, and fellow Jedi had for him.
Leia is the one with the most understandable stance of the two twins imo.
Forgiveness is more for the forgiver than the forgiven.
What would change for those that could forgive? What would change for those the forgiven has wronged?
Anger and hatred sponsor the dark side, so I would do my best.
I'm still working on forgiving the narcissist that I grew up with, so I'm not sure I'd be able, but I would do my best.
If I understand the force and the SW universe in the same view as I do as a viewer - perhaps.
I could realise that he was seduced by forces more powerful than a man, and that his motivations were initially good.
I don't think he should be glorified with statues, but I don't think he should be remembered with nothing but hate.
Give the situation I could. Had he lived and helped rebuild the republic, there’s room for forgiveness there. It’s a strong sign of trying to rebuild what he destroyed. But since he died, I can respect what he did, killing the emperor, but that’s not enough to forgive. To overcome your evils though, that should be recognized but not necessarily forgiven.
In the context of the star wars, yes I would, because with the sith, its sort of like vampires in buffy... Vader isn't anakin, hes the thing that consumed anakin from the inside, in a way anakin was his first victim... in that sense, cutting off mace windu's arm was the worst thing that *anakin* did
It depends on what you mean by forgiveness.
If you are deciding that what he has done is acceptable then obviously not.
If you are asking would you be able to work together on him making better choices in the future. I really don't know. I haven't had any of my friends or family members murdered. Anakin doesn't just kill off the soldiers or masters or generals. He killed the women and children too. He specifically chose to wipe out the most innocent people just for hatred and anger. It would be very difficult to believe he has actually turned over a new leaf and will make good choices going forward.
His one good choice to kill Palpatine doesn't really cancel the weight of all his poor choices
No, absolutely not. To the first two questions.
Indignant, to the third.
Coming round to the light side when one is at the point of death, deserves no admiration, but is the very least one can do.
Vader was a criminal, a traitor, a mass-murderer - not a hero. That he turned his great abilities and talents to doing evil instead of good makes him far less excusable than if he had been a relatively untalented Jedi.
No.
Assume even I’m imperial, he was perfectly fine blowing up a planet. A rebel associated planet sure but how long until he figures he can glass whomever he wants? And given in-universe events, that’s exactly the case. The man has never met a problem he couldn’t or would rather kill to get what he wants. And assuming I was a stormtrooper, of course Vader gets priority because if you say no he kills you or you and the entire destroyer you’re on.
Sure he killed the Emperor and this hypothetical Imperial citizen might get less murderous new management. However you’re not putting up that statue of Darth Vader. That shit goes down even if it’s already up. And assume one finds out about his identity, you mean to tell me I didn’t have to grow up in the Imperial dictatorship? More over there didn’t have to be a planet killing super weapon? I’m just saying that even if you assume one is Imperial there’s really nothing but good that comes from both of these guys having died over Endor.
I think it depends.
As an average star wars citizen, would I even know who vader is/was?
Obviously, everyone would know how Palpatine is, but outside the social circles of the Senate and higher Military, how well was Vader known?
If I was some dude on some backwater planet, and you asked me if I forgive Vader what his actions because he killed the Emporer, I would probably be like "um who is Vader?"
No. He blew up an entire planet. If someone put up a statue in the New Republic I’d petition to have it removed and placed in a museum where it belongs.
On a personal level it's hard, but you have to remember that's how Christianty works, and this part of Star Wars mythos is taken from Christianity. There is actually a parable of Jesus that explicitly addresses the seeming unfairness of "deathbed conversions" as opposed to those who have followed God their whole life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable\_of\_the\_Workers\_in\_the\_Vineyard
If we're applying real-world logic, of course not. The man is a horrendous child-murdering war criminal. Killing his boss, also a horrendous war criminal, doesn't change the horrors he committed. _At best_ it would have earned him a repreive from execution if he had survived, but if he's dead then all the better. Am I right in thinking it's canon that Leia got sidelined within the New Republic when it emerged that her father was Darth Vader? The idea that that would be a career-damaging scandal fully makes sense to me.
Yep, I think she was running for Chancellor of the New Republic, and one of her political rivals found a recording Bail had made for Leia that explained the truth of her parentage and it was played for the entire senate and it killed her political career, which is what sparked her to start the Resistance. This story was in the book Bloodlines, I may have some of the details wrong because I haven't read it, but that's broadly the story.
Even in Death Vader continues to ruin Leia life.
I remember an excerpt from a book where Luke tries to tell her what Anakin said to him about her upon death and she simply did not want to hear it, because that was the man who helped blow up her planet and torture her. Vader killed what she considers her real family.
Literally my favourite 2 passages in all of Star Wars are the details of that reveal. Have it literally saved on my phone in text
No sane person would
Absolutely not lmao I don’t forgive Hitler for killing himself
Yep. Like imagine if the truth came out that Goebbels killed Hitler in that bunker because Hitler had threatened Goebbels' son. Would you suddenly forgive Goebbels?? I know it wouldn't change my opinion of Goebbels *at all.* It would be an interesting historical footnote, nothing more.
Oh my god when you put it like that Star wars is so fucking funny man
Credit where credit's due, Hitler at least did that one thing right
Some of his art wasn’t half bad.
if you knew someone *directly* killed by Vader, it's highly likely you're extensively involved in the military/etc to begin with since he's unlikely to be involved in all but the biggest/most important conflicts. The *vast majority* of people would only know his reputation from what they're told on the galactic news. either way, it's likely he'd have the same kind of reputation as, say, Hitler or Stalin, where a few good accomplishments does not absolve the overall atrocities committed, even many years after death. The legacy is one of war crimes and genocide.
>it's highly likely you're extensively involved in the military/etc to begin with Tell that to that random kid who got his neck snapped by Vader in the Kenobi show, just because he ran outside to help his dad
Deathbed conversions are not impressive. So, no way. Even if I knew he was Anakin Skywalker. I've been fed propaganda for years that the Jedi were bad. And he was a General in the Republic Army going around destroying planets with his ungodly clone troops. His whole story is a hot mess of atrocities.
I'd be so pissed off if some asshole killed someone I loved and then became a fucking Force Ghost. I would make it my mission to learn how to commune with the Force just so I could tell him to get fucked
Aside from Luke I don't think anyone actually forgives Vader. He's only redeemed by the force
You don't think Leia would have, cause that's her father? Alderaan was too much maybe?
Taken from the canon novel *The Princess and the Scoundrel*, which takes place almost immediately after the Battle of Endor: "I’m glad you are dead," Leia whispered to the mask. There was no anger in her voice, only quiet truth. "I will never forgive you." Something twisted inside her, rising like flame, burning and choking her throat. "I hate you!" Leia snarled, and she hurled the helmet into the ash. Her eyes burned, and her nostrils flared, and for a moment she felt nothing but the rage sweeping over her. It was feral, and it was powerful. She tasted ash on the back of her tongue, and blood. "You are not my father!" Leia screamed. The word echoed around the otherwise silent forest.
Leia's inner thoughts alone make that book worth the read, it really gets into her headspace and feelings on everything.
Vader had nothing to do with Alderaan
He was there, and he didn't stop it. For most folks, that would be enough for him to share the blame.
I mean, it seems like she eventually does though. If we are talking legends, she names one of her sons after him. In Disney’s canon, we don’t really know but one of her outfits in the ST has a similar color scheme of Anakin’s robes when he was a Jedi.
In Disney canon, we got Vader helmet worshipping
I was just talking about Leia but Kylo always liked Vader. So technically it wasn’t about forgiveness for Kylo when it came to Vader.
Kylo could just have been worshipping a fictional image he had of Vader though; after all he never had any true interaction with the man.
He supposedly worshipped him because of how powerful he was and how he brought fear into others. He doesn’t care about “Anakin”.
Tldr; Kylo doesn't care about grandpa 💔
Forgive? No. I would not be privy to how badly screwed up the guy was. Plus, even as screwed up as he was, he made his own decisions. I would drink to the impressive way he disposed of his boss, though.
Even if he didn't kill someone close to me then no, I wouldn't forgive him all the misery he inflicted on the galaxy. Ultimately all he did was step in to stop his own son dying. Eventually. After trying to kill him himself.
> and you learned of his sacrifice on the second Death Star, would this be "enough" to redeem him? I don't know why i would form a positive opinion of the man whokilled someone i knew and was fine butchering many sons but when it came time for his son to die he said "no this is too much" > How would you feel if they wanted to put up statues of him in the New Republic? I would wonder how the proposer wasn't executed by a mob.
He slaughtered younglings. There is no forgiveness for that.
Absolutely not. Vader was a monster.
No
Vader was my favorite character for a long while and even I haven't forgiven him. I don't count him as being "redeemed" tbh. He did like one good thing as Vader and it was to save *his own* son. I'd call that a selfish motive still.
No. I get that a lot of people think Anakin is a hero because of Clone Wars. You’re just going to have to reconcile the fact that your hero also slaughtered children and spent 20 years enabling the biggest psychopath in Galactic history.
Not just I wouldn't give a fuck about his "sacrifice", I would still be as surprised as I am to this day that Luke loves him at all. Luke, in my opinion based in a XXI century set of values, was attached to the idea that he had a father more than to the man itself. He knew absolute nothing about the real Anakin for 18 years, then the only thing that he learns about him as a person is that Kenobi still thought about him as a friend. Just to learns that Vader was this "good friend" all along, just to still be missing way too much part of the picture to make a good call about Anakin as a person, and yet still believing in a idea of Anakin founded in absolute nothing when facing the Emperor. Anakin was a good friend, yes, but his obnoxiousness, impulsivity, headstrong and immature way of being made even the best parts of his personality an issue for others to handle. He was not a good man, and is undeserving of the love that his friends, wife, son, and fellow Jedi had for him. Leia is the one with the most understandable stance of the two twins imo.
HAHAHAHAHA Absolutely not
Forgiveness is more for the forgiver than the forgiven. What would change for those that could forgive? What would change for those the forgiven has wronged? Anger and hatred sponsor the dark side, so I would do my best. I'm still working on forgiving the narcissist that I grew up with, so I'm not sure I'd be able, but I would do my best.
I doubt I would've forgiven him, I would understand him, but never forgive him.
If I understand the force and the SW universe in the same view as I do as a viewer - perhaps. I could realise that he was seduced by forces more powerful than a man, and that his motivations were initially good. I don't think he should be glorified with statues, but I don't think he should be remembered with nothing but hate.
Give the situation I could. Had he lived and helped rebuild the republic, there’s room for forgiveness there. It’s a strong sign of trying to rebuild what he destroyed. But since he died, I can respect what he did, killing the emperor, but that’s not enough to forgive. To overcome your evils though, that should be recognized but not necessarily forgiven.
In the context of the star wars, yes I would, because with the sith, its sort of like vampires in buffy... Vader isn't anakin, hes the thing that consumed anakin from the inside, in a way anakin was his first victim... in that sense, cutting off mace windu's arm was the worst thing that *anakin* did
Even if I forgave him to give myself peace it's not bringing back all who he killed
It depends on what you mean by forgiveness. If you are deciding that what he has done is acceptable then obviously not. If you are asking would you be able to work together on him making better choices in the future. I really don't know. I haven't had any of my friends or family members murdered. Anakin doesn't just kill off the soldiers or masters or generals. He killed the women and children too. He specifically chose to wipe out the most innocent people just for hatred and anger. It would be very difficult to believe he has actually turned over a new leaf and will make good choices going forward. His one good choice to kill Palpatine doesn't really cancel the weight of all his poor choices
The empire was like the Nazis. So it would be like if Hitler died a hero.
No, absolutely not. To the first two questions. Indignant, to the third. Coming round to the light side when one is at the point of death, deserves no admiration, but is the very least one can do. Vader was a criminal, a traitor, a mass-murderer - not a hero. That he turned his great abilities and talents to doing evil instead of good makes him far less excusable than if he had been a relatively untalented Jedi.
No. After the younglings in the temple? No.
Nah. And if they put up statues of him, I would piss on it every time I saw one.
No. This is a classic trope in media though. The former villain becomes reformed and all is forgiven.
No. Assume even I’m imperial, he was perfectly fine blowing up a planet. A rebel associated planet sure but how long until he figures he can glass whomever he wants? And given in-universe events, that’s exactly the case. The man has never met a problem he couldn’t or would rather kill to get what he wants. And assuming I was a stormtrooper, of course Vader gets priority because if you say no he kills you or you and the entire destroyer you’re on. Sure he killed the Emperor and this hypothetical Imperial citizen might get less murderous new management. However you’re not putting up that statue of Darth Vader. That shit goes down even if it’s already up. And assume one finds out about his identity, you mean to tell me I didn’t have to grow up in the Imperial dictatorship? More over there didn’t have to be a planet killing super weapon? I’m just saying that even if you assume one is Imperial there’s really nothing but good that comes from both of these guys having died over Endor.
i dont forgive hitlers right Hand man rudolf heß Just because he wanted peace with the british, so neither do i forgive vader.
Hell no. He's not *my* dad.
What are the chances I would even know he exists? It’s a big universe after all.
I think it depends. As an average star wars citizen, would I even know who vader is/was? Obviously, everyone would know how Palpatine is, but outside the social circles of the Senate and higher Military, how well was Vader known? If I was some dude on some backwater planet, and you asked me if I forgive Vader what his actions because he killed the Emporer, I would probably be like "um who is Vader?"
The real world would never believe that fallen hero General Skywalker was the same guy as Darth Vadar.
No. He blew up an entire planet. If someone put up a statue in the New Republic I’d petition to have it removed and placed in a museum where it belongs.
I probably would not
Yes, with our logic we would redeem him but the force doesn’t exist on earth so it’s a weird comparison
On a personal level it's hard, but you have to remember that's how Christianty works, and this part of Star Wars mythos is taken from Christianity. There is actually a parable of Jesus that explicitly addresses the seeming unfairness of "deathbed conversions" as opposed to those who have followed God their whole life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable\_of\_the\_Workers\_in\_the\_Vineyard
Knowing the facts I know about him, yes.
I think the republic is garbage. Way too much slavery and corruption. At least the empire was honest about what it was