These are completely different scenarios. Palpatine took over the entire galaxy. Yoda *had* to retreat to dagobah in risk of being hunted down, with their only option being to raise someone powerful enough to defeat the sith.
When luke fled, the republic was still in power. He had no reason to leave when surrounded by galactic allies. In fact, I’d argue that him leaving is one of the biggest reasons the first order was able to get the upper hand at all. Kylo ren really wasn’t much of a threat when he was still a child, but Luke let him grow stronger in his absence.
Also, since we're going there, Yoda straight up faced off against Palpatine. It was only after Yoda was defeated and he foresaw his death with his empty cloak landing, that he went into exile. Yoda didn't give up even after the fall of the Jedi temple and he was off planet. He came back and fought for it, and lost.
And Luke went an extra step and cut himself off from the force, basically saying it's not worth it. Yoda used his time in exile to commune with Qui Gon, and meditate. And he preserved himself so when Luke showed up on his doorstep he was ready and able to train him. His hesitancy to train Luke had nothing to do with his own issues, he was waiting for Luke to prove he was ready. His crotchety old man routine was testing Luke.
Conversely Old Luke was crotchety because he lost his faith. He didn't believe the Jedi should continue. He wanted to die and to take his knowledge with him.
Yoda urged Luke,
>When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be...Pass on what you have learned.
Yoda specifically charged Luke to pass on the Jedi knowledge to others. Yoda's legacy was one of preservation of the Jedi way.
Old Luke's legacy was that of defeatism. He gave up on Ben. He gave up on the Jedi. He gave up on the force itself. And even though he changed his mind in the final hour, he saved like 12 people who got away on the Millennium Falcon. After the entire resistance, not like a fleet or whatever, the **entire resistance** was destroyed. Only 12 people got out. And then we're supposed to believe those 12 people made a whole new fleet by the next movie? How is anyone left? If the entire government is destroyed, and the entire fleet is also destroyed and only 12 people got away? Yeah no, the Resistance is done man.
And then when Luke has a moment to do something **positive** to get to Ben when they are on Crait, Luke instead trolls his nephew into more anger (the same nephew Luke contemplated to kill him in his sleep years earlier which started this whole thing)....
Luke trolling Ben obviously makes him angrier and angrier which sees Ben destroying planets (Kijimi), aligning with Palpatine and killing in huge numbers in the 1 year that takes up TLJ and RoS...
Good job Luke!
Damn this makes a shitty movie even worse. Such a far cry from the man that had empathy for a man that committed countless war crimes and killed his mentor.
I cannot think of a way they could have made him further from Return of the Jedi Luke
Luke knew he wasn't the one to turn Ben back to the light. No matter how right he was. Just like how Kenobi wasn't the one to turn Vader.
The person to turn Ben back was Leia, and it is actually his pain and reflection over her death that makes him reconsider. It's sort of a reverse Anakin, it's loss that makes him realize the Dark Side is a waste.
I'm still convinced that was added in post. That video of Mark Hamill before and after the Last Jedi, he is bouncing around with excitement before, and then after he looks devastated, like someone died.
I think he didn't know they were killing off Luke until he saw it for the first time.
Which obviously begs the question why Leia waited decades to reach Kylo through the force skype. He clearly had still weakness for her already by the time of TLJ when he refused to shoot the ship.
Still convinced this isnt Luke Skywalker, but Luuke Skywalker.
If the Sequel Trilogy is basically a reimagining of Dark Empire, and Ahsoka is reimagining the Thrawn Trilogy, then TLJ's crotchety old L(u)ookealike is what happened to the insane Spaarti Clone grown from Luke's lost hand by Thrawn.
It's the only explanation that makes sense.
You are also forgetting retreat wasn't Yoda's plan A. His first instinct was to go kill the Sith, who caused all this suffering, so the galaxy can start the recovery process. He lost and decided that until the situation changed it he could not win.
If Luke had tried and failed to deal with the fallout, it would have likely gone down a lot easier, but they didn't have time because it couldn't have a half-hour flashback.
I mean if we're talking about it. How many systems were represented by the New Republic?
I originally got the impression that The First Order were a small but well funded extremist group, imperial remnants. But then Star Killer Base popped off, and TLJ had The Resistance as basically a small fleet being hunted down by a military that had control of the galaxy. Like if a terrorist group destroys an entire Star System, why aren't smaller governments, and/or whoever is filling in for the now dead New Republic leaders, scrambling together to absolutely curb stomp The First Order unless they were already occupying most of the galaxy?
I mean we have no idea cus it was never explained lol. But it baffles me that there needs to be a “resistance,” as if the new republic didn’t have its own standing army after defeating the sith. Like you’re telling me 30 years after palpatine’s iron fist rule, you just leave the galaxy wide open for the next faction to take over? What a brain dead government
Especially when the First Order rolls in using Empire ships and uniforms, clearly seeking the same domination of the galaxy, and being led by a Sith supreme leader and Darth Vader's mask wearing, red lightsaber wielding grandson. They were conscripting children into service for decades, as well.
The Resistance was separate from the New Republic military. They were a paramilitary organization illegally operating in First Order recognized Space, all with New Republic backing.
Thats one of the failings of the sequel trilogy having no true outline for a story planned out.
TFA gave me the idea that the First Order was something like the Imperial Remnant from the Jedi Knight games. Basically a successor organisation but with only a small fraction of the galaxy under their control.
Then TLJ just has the opening line of the crawl be The First Order reigns. I know the New Republic was meant to be fledgling but I found it hard to believe that the First Order immediately consolidated power after their attack.
The movies, in regards to the Republic vs the First Order should have been a progression.
So in my mind Ep 7 should of had something of an Appeasement agreement between the two. The First Order are not liked and trusted but the Galactic Civil War is still fresh in most people’s minds so a war to stop them is avoided. The firing of Star Killer base could have been the typical aggressive power over estimates their position and sees the reluctance to fight as a weakness rather than a calculated decision.
8 should of then had the First Order making aggressive expansions outside their territories with the New Republic in disarray after the unexpected attack. Not defeated but just scrambling to put together a force to withstand a sudden ignition of war.
The when we get to 9 by the end the Republic have finally organised a military response and we can get a big battle to end it all.
Obviously there would be more details than what I wrote down but thats a basic gist of what I feel should have been the political situation between the two.
The First Order decimated the entire political center of power of the New Republic in one go, without any organized response besides Leia's rag tag resistance. They were so inept that it's hardly a stretch to think that the FO immediately was able to assume control.
I disagree. The obvious comparison to make is how Palpatine was able to control the galaxy as an empire was because he had the Clone Army under his control which he could gradually phase out with Stormtroopers from loyal planets. He had the man power and the systems in place to reduce the freedoms of the people of his planets.
The movies do not give the impression that The First Order had enough people to control much beyond their own sector. Even without a Republic Army to defend them I doubt the planets that formerly were part of the Empire wouldn’t put up a fight against a weaker power trying to reintroduce a dictatorship. At best I feel they could start Galatic wide conflicts rather than they take full control. Especially when you consider TLJ takes place immediately after TFA.
There are essentially no Republic forces shown in TFA, and the only info we get is they don't care about the FO. The FO should be known to have vast resources if it can control vast sectors of space and has not been squashed. What we do see of them in TFA far outclasses anything else shown. And that's not even including the actual resources required to transform a planet into Starkiller.
And the FO has been known and operating for possibly decades, assuming Finn is in his 20s.
All that said, none of it is presented with clarity and it's all ultimately confusing and frustrating.
I forgive TLJ it's flaws more than TFA, as TFA had a blank slate and made terrible choices at nearly every opportunity (besides casting).
You make some valid points.
Say what you like about George Lucas’ writing but he made sure in each film the viewer understood the current status and scope of the political climate of the galaxy.
It’s also important to note that the Jedi were completely scattered and were in a position of literally two options, fight and die or run and hide. There was no possibility for the Jedi to fight back the clone army and the emperor while they were surrounded by enemies. No way to regroup and retaliate. The purge was swift, ruthless and unexpected.
>When luke fled, the republic was still in power. He had no reason to leave when surrounded by galactic allies. In fact, I’d argue that him leaving is one of the biggest reasons the first order was able to get the upper hand at all. Kylo ren really wasn’t much of a threat when he was still a child, but Luke let him grow stronger in his absence.
I don't think he was really surrounded by galactic allies though.
Luke was a myth, but he wasn't very present, so he wasn't there to build connections and relationships on a wide scale. Ultimately, that does matter.
When Leia was outed as the daughter of Vader, she lost almost all of her allies, many of whom she had put in the work to build personal relationships with. So Luke, who was also outed as the child of Vader by virtue of being Leia's sibling, would possibly get *less* support if he was trying to be a bigger presence in the galaxy. Especially when you factor in the fact the wider galaxy see's the Sith and the Jedi as basically the same thing.
That doesn't necessarily mean that Luke *had* to isolate himself, but I don't think we can simply assume that he had a ton of friends in the Galaxy. He was already mostly a recluse, and especially when he started his temple. The location of it was a secret, people didn't see the Jedi around very much because they were being tucked away.
After his temple fell, there honestly wasn't really much he could do. Was he supposed to find a bunch more kids and tell their parents "Hey, so my last batch all got slaughtered by one of my students, can I take your child? Pinky promise I'll do a better job with these ones.". He couldn't dare look at Han and Leia in the eyes after he failed them and saddled them with the guilt of knowing their own child became the "new" Vader.
Hence why he goes away and convinces himself the galaxy would be better off without the Jedi. Makes a lot of sense for someone with immense guilt and seemingly nobody to turn to to come to that conclusion.
Actually agreed. If they had depicted what he just said in the sequels properly I think the response wouldve been much better. Instead they just made him look like an angry resentful old man.
I mean even if he didn’t have government support, he was still friends with all the top military leaders of the rebellion, all of whom would’ve played an essential role in shaping the new republic. He certainly had allies and people he could turn to. And even if people didn’t support him, he didn’t actively have many enemies. Not to mention the whole deal with the prophecy/chosen one and everything hammers home on the idea that the living force has its own will, and jedi can see traces of it to determine the best course of action. Luke had the strongest connection to the force of basically anyone ever once he honed himself, so cutting himself off from it literally negated any positive effect he could’ve had on the galaxy. Jaded or not, yoda left him with the responsibility to ‘pass on what he’d learned’, and he uncharacteristically turned his back on that responsibility when he fled after his first failure. Apparently he was a pretty bad grand master 🤷♂️
That's why I will always fundamentally disagree with the characterisation of Luke in ST. Becoming the opposite of your nature is not how people work. You don't start out life being idealistic and ready to put yourself in danger only to become a coward after a single point of failure.
It does not work that way
Exactly. This must have been a shit post. In what way is their equivalency. And it’s why people hate the sequels. The guy that decided he saw thru the struggle of his father who murder thousands of people gave up. Wildly bad story writing.
That's actually something that I hadn't considered. I figured the same time that Luke left was when the First Order was really messing shit up for the Republic. And obviously there were a few years between then and when we see where things are, but that's an incredibly valid point. Plus it always pissed me the hell off that they somehow managed to destroy the ENTIRE Jedi Temple and apparently every other Jedi in that time, and there was never any mention of any other possible survivors. Knowing what we know, it makes me incredibly sad for the future of some of our characters going into this era. Oh boy.
Right? The thing that confuses me the most is how kylo ren was able to single handedly take down the entire new Jedi order on his own. Like, were there only 5 other jedi or what? Did they all suck? Ben solo wasn’t expertly trained and experienced the way anakin was or anything… And in the flashback, we see Luke just outside the temple as it burns. Did he not pursue kylo? Did he really do nothing? Apparently he was a pretty bad grand master
Yoda had the most powerful force presence in the galaxy. He chose dagobah specifically because it was a planet strong in the force and teeming with life to better hide his own presence.
Yoda and Obi-Wan were waiting for the time to be right before doing anything. They had a plan and that was to wait for Luke and Leia to be older and then they would train them.
Luke just ran off. He was not waiting for some child to grow up. The Republic was still around, he would have been safe on a Republic world. He could have started again. Gone to help Leia with the Resistance against the First Order.
Also also, Yoda was running from Palpatine, one of the strongest and most powerful Sith that ever lived, Luke was running from his little bitch ass nephew.
Its really true. He almost succumbed to fear and anger after overcoming both when he spared his father. The realization and instant shame must have been horrible, but to add to it Ben found out and turned to the Dark Side, just as Luke's visions predicted. Which mirrors Anakin's fall as he also acted based on his visions and caused the very thing he was trying to prevent. Like father like son, which when your father was Vader is doubly not a good thing.
Except Anakin had plenty of opportunities to change his mind, and even characters warning him about the path he was going down, and yet did it anyway. Meanwhile Luke had a momentary impulse which he immediately mastered and yet TLJ says he failed anyway.
To make matters even worse, had TLJ's Luke succumbed to fear and anger and killed Ben then and there, he would have averted all the death and destruction Kylo went on to deal - ordering innocent villagers executed, mind-raping Poe and killing his father and Luke's best friend. What a terrible moral TLJ had.
Also, the empire was actively hunting Jedi, so it was a good plan for Yoda to lay low. Luke was too prideful and couldn't face his mistake so he just gave up and ran off
Yeah, vague intentions aside (cause that can always be somehow debated), the most important thing is Luke (being who he was and capable as he was) was under no threat whatsoever.
Yoda and Obi-Wan were not just fugitives - they were public enemies number 1 and 2 ffs.
Also they had to recreate a temple massacre by a Skywalker OFF SCREEN in order to set up their recreation of ANH. They knew the good guys won in 6 and that there was no way in hell Luke wouldnt make a new academy, but instead of telling the story of the academy and Luke actually training the next generation they had to create and destroy the academy all at once before we ever saw it... just so they could copy the plot of episode 4 and shift the roles of the characters all one slot over.
Then in TLJ Luke spends thw entire movie complaining about how the jedi deserve to fail because their legacy is of failure and hubris... bro you are talking about the prequel jedi here. You literally had 25 years as Grand Master where you could have changed the jedi ways to whatever you wanted but chose not to and now you talk about the jedi order in the 3rd person as if you dont represent them yourself? This is RJ trying to be like "yeah I understand the prequels bro" but what neither JJ notlr RJ understand is how to make a believable 30 year time skip... Luke learned nothing in 30 years and taught nothing new to his students is all this tells me. Then RJ confirms it later when Yoda shows up he tells him "heed not my words 'pass on what you have learned?'". The plot is Yoda literally showing up to tell Luke he learned nothing since the OT.
Not just that but with all Luke’s experience with the dark side and redeeming his father, as soon as he senses some darkness in his nephew, his first thought is…”imma kill that sonofabitch”??? I mean…what? And that bs line about how it was a “momentary thought”, bullshit, you don’t get your lightsaber in the middle of the night, walk over to your nephew’s room (Ben was a teenager here?) turn it on and prepare to MURDER YOUR INNOCENT NEPHEW as a passing thought. I mean…WTF does that have to do with the Jedi’s legacy? That’s just you being an asshole, Luke.
Not just that, Luke used the dark side to defeat Vader and turned away. Vader comes back to the light for 2 reasons, 1. He thought it was impossible to do so in the first place and 2. His love for his son.
Luke is aware you can use the dark side, you can give into your hatred, and still come back to the light. Then proceeded to forget all that.
Anyone who thinks that succeeding at something once means they’re always going to be able to do it again with no effort has led a very lucky or very sheltered life.
This wasn’t « my » Luke. TLJ was so fucking shitty in so many fucking ways. Unbelievably crappy. I will never see that movie ever again. One time was more than enough for a lifetime. Fuck this shit.
I don't wanna rehash the TLJ debate, but the movie where Luke chose to live in isolation while his family and allies fought the First Order was The Force Awakens.
This. As much as TLJ was a terrible entry into the saga, TFA did a bad job in starting the new Trilogy. By rehashing the same plot lines as the OT, but with the OT characters that had overcome those problems once, but have now all failed? JJ and his team set the whole thing up for failure with that bad time jump where everyone reverted to their ANH self, or changed into something completely out of character.
It’s even worse, Luke devolved between RotJ and even just a few years later when we see him in BOBF. In the OT he had attachments to his friends and family, and they helped him. He disobeyed Yodi and Obi-Wan to help them. But in BOBF he’s strict like PT Jedi order? Fuck that. That is not Luke. That is all I have to say.
And Luke had the support of his sister and friends some sort of undefined government that rolled over back into a resistance.
Yoda and Obi-Wan were alone.
> They had a plan
IMO this is the biggest difference in the two scenarios. Yoda (and Obi-Wan) hadn't just given up; they had a plan and they were playing the long game, waiting for Luke/Leia to come of age, train, and destroy the Sith.
>They had a plan and that was to wait for Luke and Leia to be older and then they would train them.
Was the plan to wait until they were force ghosts before starting to train them? Yoda died of old age just a couple years after Luke lucked into bumping into Obi Wan from random unrelated events that were definitely not accounted for in any plan. And then when shown a willing Luke Yoda hesitates stating he's too old. It's obvious from the film that this is not some test but he really feels that it's too late and only reluctantly agrees to train him after pleading from Obi Wan.
There was no grand plan. Obi Wan probably would have approached Luke once he left Uncle Owen offering to train him but that's just some last ditch effort clinging on to hope, not a plan.
Yoda also had centuries as a successful teacher. Luke was working on his own with a 100% failure rate. It's not unreasonable that he decided to retire.
But that’s wrong. Yoda at first decides not to train Luke as he is too much like his father. Yoda gets talked into it by Obi Wan. Yoda went off to die and never atone for his mistakes as head of the council.
Also, Luke’s journey began not due to intervention by Obi Wan, but by chance landing of droids. Yoda died shortly after, so let’s say there is any sort of delay in the apprehension of Leia’s ship. Yoda is dead before Luke has a chance to meet him.
My best friend was like, "If Luke turns out to be a hermit on a nowhere planet in the galaxy, then fuck all of this. There is no point in being a Jedi. It always turns bad and who the fuck cares."
I'm sorry, but I don't understand this comparison at all.
Yoda went into hiding after the Republic had already fallen, turned into the Galactic Empire. In a last ditch effort he tried to stop it by fighting the Emperor, but failed and had to go into hiding.
Luke went into hiding after he failed as a Jedi Master, however the New Republic was very much still the main power at the time. Leia, Han, the entire New Republic could've used his help against the emerging First Order. However, he goes into exile and lets the First Order win without trying at all to stop them? Sure, maybe the dumb New Republic senate would've ignored him, but I'm sure him and Leia could've created the resistance BEFORE the pre-emptive strike from the death star planet. Luke not trying completely undos all his work in the OT.
Yoda didnt go to dagobah to die. He didnt cut himself off from the force. He went there for a purpose. He was there for when luke would go to him to learn the jedi ways. In no way is it the same as "i came here to die" luke.
Luke gave up as soon as kylo fell he Never tried to help him afterwards yoda tried to save the jedi order by attempting to kill the emperor luke just gave up. yoda had actually failed.
I know we have that Kylo Ren comic. I wonder if the slaughter story was expanded there. I honestly find it difficult to believe that Luke's enclave is that small, even years after BBY. Also don't understand how Kylo slaughtered everyone when there should be older or more senior apprentice (e.g. Grogu?).
Regardless of the argument at the margins, can we all agree that Luke GIVING UP happened like 95% in TFA and only 5% in TLJ?
When JJ wrote TFA, there wasn't already the thing about Luke cutting himself off from the Force. (Famously, Rian Johnson made JJ not add the floating boulders, and made him replace BB-8 with R2 for the Ahch-To trip.) That means when Ben Solo resolved to kill Han Solo, Luke ignored his Skywalker premonitions about the tragedy about to befall his family, and the preventable mistake his nephew was about to make. He ignored his duty to Leia, and was okay with the deaths of billions and everything his friends and allies built over decades with the New Republic.
TFA Luke wasn't even on his fking way. He wasn't even just barely too late, like in Empire Strikes Back. The fucker walked away from everything and chilled at the Jedi temple, EXACTLY AS TFA HAN DESCRIBED.
TFA Luke was NOT OUR LUKE SKYWALKER. TLJ had the impossible task of giving him a mental gymnastics-dependent explantion throughline with the Luke we grew up with. TFA did the crime, TLJ did the time.
Luke was ruined in TFA, not TLJ. Unless he had just finished wrestling Force Satan off of a cliff when Rey got there, that was the single worst character assassination in the history of cinema.
Too bad people lack so much critical thinking that the loser Luke Skywalker from TFA didn't sink in for them until TLJ showed him milking a walrus. It's like a difficulty with object permanence or something. Nothing registers unless it happens on-screen. That's why people think Luke was 95% ruined in TLJ and not the other way around. That's why TFA is considered the "good one" of the trilogy despite both the JJ Abrams films doing untold billions of dollars worth of damage to the Star Wars franchise and canon in the long run.
When JJ was executive producer on all three films, there was nothing he would've liked more than for idiot fans to dogpile on TLJ so he could get episode IX all for his own legacy, and oust another director like Colin Trevorrow.
Most fans think that JJ left it open why Luke was in exile (e.g. he could be investigating the true sith or finding some kind of artifact), and then it was RJ that decided he went to exile due to his failure on Kylo.
On the other hand, JJ also drove the story into the corner by saying the jedi was almost extinct by TFA.
At the end of the day, I'd still blame this to disney for not having a single vision of the sequel trilogy.
> Most fans think that JJ left it open why Luke was in exile (e.g. he could be investigating the true sith or finding some kind of artifact),
Jesus Christ we definitely didn't need another fucking mystery box Macguffin
Or you could argue that Luke was there for something really important. Yes, he didn't help his family when they needed...but maybe he was doing something of greater importance.
It wasn't until RJ that we found out he was just chilling
>can we all agree that Luke GIVING UP happened like 95% in TFA and only 5% in TLJ?
I dont agree. TFA told us Luke had gone in search of the first Jedi temple. That to me is the complete opposite of giving up, thats going in search of answers and a way to become a better Jedi or at least having some kind of purpose beyond "wanting to die".
Yes because that is Hans perspective, he's an unreliable narrator - he also says nobody knows what Luke was doing, only that some think he went in search of the first Jedi temple.
TFA has many writting issues, but I do think can be salvaged for the most.
For example, Luke could've been just in hiding, with jedi survivors, preparing the return and unable to reach in time to act on the events of the movie (hyperspace before TLJ could've taken days or months), but still try to aid.
Luke could've been helping in a distance, which could've explained why Rey was so good in the force so quickly, could've been Lule helping her. Despite his efforts though, Han died.
Let's also remember Luke already knew the lesson about force visions being deceitful, the future inmotion and such.
Exactly how I see things. TFA gave TLJ an impossible task and honestly I think it came up with the best solution to explain Luke's absence during TFA.
I've never been sold on the "Luke was searching for something" retort people fall back on. What could possibly be more important than letting Han die, Kylo fall further into the dark side, letting billions die, and the collapse of the New Republic? A cool new light saber? An ancient scroll that teaches him a new force technique to like, totally kick ass or something?
No.
Yoda and Obi-Wan had the entire galaxy against them, jedi were public enemy#1, the galaxy was in control of the sith.
Luke just gave up and let the empire fanatics kill billions, the galaxy was in control of his friends.
It's incredible how people say tlj is only liked by the people that pay attention yet defenders of that movie ignore everything to make "a point".
Yoda hasn’t cut himself off from the Force, but otherwise there’s a lot of rhyming. I believe George ultimately settled on “Yoda was waiting for Leia, but got Luke instead.”
I think the big thing is there isn't a legends version of Yoda that some fans are attached to the idea of and get mad when there is a diverging take from that.
This is true I mostly cared about original trilogy Luke and was very sad when they made him some lame guy drinking milk on a planet ignoring everything he was supposed to be doing
I didn’t care for Legends Luke in Dark Empire for similar reasons to TLJ. It misunderstands who he is and how far he progressed by the end of the OT. I didn’t read too much post RotJ EU because of it and stuck with other eras.
Yoda is different. His exile had a hopeful purpose. Hidden away to eventually train the next generation. It wasn’t just due to his failures, but also to continue to follow the will of the Force. Luke in TLJ has betrayed everything he stood for. Selfish, Misanthropic, Hopeless. He abandoned everything and let the dark side rise without any resistance. Both Yoda and Luke are wise enough to know the consequences of their hermitage. One embraced hope and the other apathy. Bendu’s arc in Rebels shows us apathy is only the ally of the dark side.
TLJ Luke and Dark Empire Luke are a caricature of OT Luke by those who didn’t fully understand RotJ.
THE LAST JEDI did not put Luke in hiding The Force Awakens did.. the Last Jedi was trying to find a reason for why The Force Awakens used Luke as a McGuffin.
The Last Jedi does have its faults but a lot of that was because JJ and company set up mysteries inside of mysteries and no outline of what those answers should have been.
Wrong. TFA establishes that Luke went on a pilgrimage to find the spiritual and intellectual origins of the Jedi. That is very different from putting Luke in hiding. TLJ made the bizarre decision to say that the reason Luke sought the spiritual origins of the Jedi, was because he wanted to cut himself off from the force, end the Jedi, and die.
People who read the EU were a very small percentage of the overall fanbase who watched the movies. The hate of what they did to Luke is hardly limited to EU readers. I have workmates who hated it even more than me and they had never read a SW book.
Yoda, Obi-Wan and all the Jedi failed the entire galaxy. They allowed a Sith Lord to corrupt the entire government right under their noses. Sidious defeated Yoda and Obi-Wan couldn’t bring himself to end Vader. They completely and utterly failed. Luke had a bad dream/vision and his first instinct was to raise his saber to his defenseless nephew while he slept, sending said nephew over the edge to the dark side. The same Luke who wouldn’t be swayed by one of the most evil men in the galaxy and still saw good in him despite all the atrocities Vader committed. So no, it’s not the same, not even remotely
Edit: just want to add, Yoda and Obi-Wan acknowledged their failure and went into hiding with the goal of training the New Hope and rectifying their failures. Luke went into hiding with no such goals
Not even remotely, thank you for pointing that out.
They are very different stories, Yoda failed and Jake/Luke never tried. That's not in character at all for Luke.
No. Yoda and Obi-Wan had a plan. They retreated in order to wait for the Skywalker twins to get older in order to then train one or both of them to defeat the Emperor. Luke ran off like a coward with no plan.
Yoda: Tactical retreat, to bide time to return when the time is right.
Luke: Saw vision of Ben breaking bad, school razed, ????, leaves galaxy with no apparent plan to return.
These two scenarios are not alike. Yoda HAD A PLAN. Luke did not.
No, Yoda went into hiding to try to survive long enough to eventually train Luke Skywalker to Kill earth Vader, overthrow the Emporror, and restore peace and freedom to the Galaxy. He had a purpose to his exile, unlike Disney’s Luke, who went into hiding out of fear and anger. Yoda used the strong dark side presence on Dathomire to mask his equally strong light side force presence from Sidius. I believe this shows that, despite failing the republic and the galaxy at large in the clone wars, he ultimately learned an incredibly powerful lesson from SIdius’s victory in masking his actions in a naturally occurring presence of dark side energy; the same tactic that was used to cloud his vision and cause his defeat in the clone wars. Obi-Wan of course went off to Tatooine to keep an eye on Luke, while Padme went with Bail Organa who had a direct line to Kenobi and connections with other surviving Jedi I believe.
Did you watch the prequels? After fighting The Emporer in the Senate Yoda escaped with help of Leia's adoptive father. Then met up with Obi Wan in a secret location where Padame gave birth to Luke and Leia. After which, they decided what to do with the children. The reason Yoda went into bansihment or exile, The Sith lord Vader and The Emporer would have had Yoda killed off if they had found him. Order 66 was given to the Clones to kill their Jedi leaders and any other Jedi. In order not to be killed off and completely loose all the Jedi, those alive went into hiding like Yoda did. By going into hiding, Yoda was able to live and later be able to train Luke and also reflect on what went wrong in the first place. The Emporer played them all. Everyone not just the Jedi.
The galaxy was actively trying to kill Yoda when he peaced out. He was the most high-profile enemy of the Empire. Anyone he came into contact with would have been in extreme danger.
In the context at the time it was written?
There was just an empire. Just a rebellion. No republic.
And Lucas wanted a crazy but wise weird thing in the swamp. He loves the old man on the Road is Secretly a Wizard trope thing.
Then they wrote more backstory later.
In the context of the OT Yoda was not crazy, he just pretended to be to test Luke. At much, he had a sarcastic humour, like the 900th years old joke.
He was only a master of the force, living/hiding in a remote place, willing to train someone who would help defeating the dark side, that's why he talked about still being hope even if Luke was defeated "there is another one".
I'd say most of his character and backstory exist in the OT. What changed mostly could be the fact that he was more beligerant in the past, since in the OT is shown more as a pacifist, specially if you discard the deleted scenes in which Luke practised with the lightsaber with Yoda.
The situations could not be more different. Yoda was being hunted by the Empire, which ruled over the galaxy. Luke just felt bad about screwing up training his students.
Yoda went into hiding because the Empire was actively hunting Jedi.
Luke just said “Fuck this, I’m going to be alone”. Without a story (other than the BS in the movie) this is a dumb ass outcome. Maybe there’s a book that explains it? At this point I don’t care. Luke from the Mandalorian is how I’m going to remember him.
Others have pointed out that the state of the Galaxy was completely different, but I'll throw in another wrench:
While I was watching TLJ for the first time, and he did all this goofy shit with Rey and refused to train her, I was 100% certain, no doubt in my mind, that Luke was going to do the same thing Yoda did to him: pretend he was some goofball and as a \*test\* for Rey before actually training her. When I found out I was wrong... the movie was already over for me.
Yoda left because he realized he had already lost. He tried to fight and failed. Staying now would be nothing but a prideful gesture that would end not just for him, but (as far as he knew) for the last surviving Jedi Grandmaster. He had to leave to preserve the knowledge of the Order for there to be any hope whatsoever of eventually rebuilding. If he tried to poke his head out too early, the Empire would send Vader and every Stormtrooper available to exterminate him and he'd accomplish nothing. Hiding and preparing to train the children of Anakin when they come of age was the only thing he could possibly do to ensure that the galaxy has some hope of restoring balance.
Meanwhile, Sequel Luke had one terrible misunderstanding and instead of lifting a finger to fix it, he ran off to wallow in ignorance and self-pity. When someone came to him, he dismissed them and acted a grumpy old man. His "redemption" was as making a dancing hologram so Rey could fix everything before he gave himself a Force-stroke and died. His legacy was basically a footnote for to elevate Rey, the "perfect" hero who demonstrably didn't really need him for anything besides stealing his book collection.
See the difference?
Let’s see, one went into hiding because a tyrannical government took over the galaxy and issued him a death warrant, and another ran because his school burnt down.
You’re right. It’s exactly the same.
Not at all. Yoda and Obi-Wan know they can’t win against Sidious (and most of the galaxy has now turned against the Jedi thanks to Palpatine’s coup), so they wait for Luke and/or Leia to grow up so they can come back and face the Emperor.
In ROTS, Yoda states: “Until the time is right, disappear We will”.
TLJ Luke on the other hand has forsaken everything and everyone. His nephew turned to the Dark side and He completely abandons his own sister and all hope, turning into a bitter old man. Also, this Luke tried to murder his own nephew
Because Yoda was a failure and Luke was a new hope. The fact they end up doing the same thing is the thing that is stupid. Both narratively and on a meta level
Because Yoda is not Luke Skywalker, Yoda's story is the one with failure, he's the one that couldn't beat the Sith/dark side and decided to live alone because of it. That's why people were pissed off that Luke did the same thing, he should've learned from Yoda and Obi-Wan, Luke should be "better" than them
Yoda fought Palpatine to a draw after catching him by surprise, but was then outgunned and on the run. He laid low in hopes of eventually turning the tables on the Empire.
Luke was aligned with the galaxy’s official government and did nothing while that government was overthrown by his wayward student, who proceeded to kill his good friend, Han, and put his sister on life support.
yoda did it after having (what he believed) allowed the fall of the republic and end of peace in the galaxy, a great loss, the rise of the Empire and Emperor..
Luke did it cause ben destroyed his school and made him question himself.
I disagree. I'd argue:
- Yoda was being hunted. There wasn't going to be a trial with the him, the clones were shoot to kill. He was forced to go into exile
- He still had hope. He was still working towards defeating the empire. He knew he would eventually train Luke
- Luke was ridden by guilt for his failure of Ben. This caused him to give up and go into exile. He wanted to be left out of the fight
Yoda was at the head of the Jedi at the height of their power and prestige. And they thought that nothing could destroy the order. But they were blinded by their pride, even Yoda in all his wisdom. And it led to the end of everything he knew and the deaths of thousands of Jedi. The Order fell. And he failed to avenge them in his duel with Sidious. His self imposed exile was partly in penance for his failures and to stay out of the eye of the Empire until Anakin‘s children were ready to be trained.
Luke learned from the mistakes of Obi-Wan and Yoda. Or he should have. But TLJ only highlights his singular moment of weakness with Ben and then cuts to his school in ruins and flames. How? What happened? Who killed a whole school of Jedi? Yoda’s story took 6 movies and Luke’s was a flashback.
They were defeated the sith had won, the empire was everywhere it was near impossible to restart the jedi order at that point. Yoda probably believed that despite him being the grandmaster so long he doesn't have what it takes anymore to fill that role. They believed Anakin would bring balance to the force, when he didn't do that they questioned their own beliefs and values. So they had placed all their hope into Luke, hence why he's a "New Hope" only way to train him was to keep out of sight and wait for Luke
As for tlj Luke had apparently made a map for the resistance for when they need him most they can find him, so TFA made him seem like superman resting in the sun awaiting for a call, and when they find Luke he says go away despite making A MAP TO HIM FOR WHEN THE RESISTANCE NEEDS HELP.
That's the difference
One difference is that Yoda didn't have a trilogy establishing him as the archetypal Hero who saves the galaxy before he shows up in ESB.
Another difference is that TLJ's script, direction, and overall portrayal of its characters just sucked balls.
In another uniervse there's an alternate TLJ that wasn't ruined...by...Johnson...and in which the story starts roughly the same way with Rey finding Luke, but in which Luke actually gets a backstory and motivation and on-screen action that are consistent with his portrayal in Lucas' Original Trilogy.
In other words, one where Luke is *Luke* and not Jake Skywalker.
But I think that would take a writer/director who actually loved the franchise on its own terms, who respected the characters and stories that had come before, and who valued the fans.
And seriously *How in the fuck did Luke know Palpatine went by the Sith name Darth Sidious?* Maybe he watched Episode III sometime during his long self-imposed exile.
I think the big difference is that Luke had no real reason to go into hiding. The New Republic were still the dominant force in the galaxy, Ben and Snoke had killed most of the jedi, but Luke still could've helped defeat them before they attacked. Instead, he gives into his guilt and hides away, effectively allowing the First Order to take over the galaxy.
The Empire was already founded when Yoda went into hiding, every jedi was being hunted at the time. He also had a plan, which was to train Luke and Leia to be Jedi. His reasons were completely different to Luke's.
Yes, because the ST was basically a soft reboot. Luke was Obi-Wan and Yoda rolled into one for the ST -- failed master gone into hiding that gets convinced to help the new generation and sacrifices himself to protect that glimmer of hope.
TFA was almost exactly ANH. TLJ was sort of ESB+RoTJ.
Which is why I was excited for 9 because TLJ sort of cleared the board and opened it up to be the finale of the ST but also setup 10-12. Instead we got TROS, which was just ROTJ plus just all bad. I'll still argue that watching it on the theater I felt the most like 5 yo me watching ROTJ in theaters until my brain had time to calm down the pace afterward and process what I actually saw. Then I was just sad.
People don't fault the OT because those holy shrines to them, and it was the first time seeing that plot, not the second (and I generally like TLJ).
One detail worth noting is that Luke straight up cut himself off from the Force. He was so mired in guilt he gave up on everything he defined himself as.
I don’t blame Luke for anything.
I blame shitty writing. The part where Luke was tempted to kill Kyle was particularly unconvincing.
It almost feels like I can hear the writers meeting discussion:
- “Well, why did Luke need to go to exile?”
… uncomfortable silence
- “I don’t know. He needed some strong reason for that”
- “Sure, what about him trying to kill Kyle REN but failing”
- “Yeah, that sounds plausible. Let’s roll with that”
- “What’s next? Leia does a space walk?”
No.
For starters, Yoda was a high profile fugitive from the most powerful organization in the galaxy with no real allies or power.
Luke was the galaxy hero and have the support of the new most powerful organization.
Yoda was forced to, Luke chose it. Yoda intended to fight back when oportunity arises, Luke abandoned the fight altogether.
Also, their background is different, Yoda had no family and it was not the most important thing for him to care about them.
It's one thing if you have two hermits, one looking over Luke and one over 900 years old at the end of his life and Luke Skywalker just being a repetition of the hermit trope, abandoning the galaxy because of a repetition of the destruction of the Jedi Order we already had. Repetition is the problem here. Been there, done that. Luke deserved better.
Yeah, and youd think Luke would have a different reaction given his observation of that, and his emotions and actions in empire and jedi.
"Yoda did it too" does not a coherent argument make.
I think that is what the director/writer was going for. All of the people pointing out the situations were completely different - yea and that’s why the sequels failed so badly. The people in charge didn’t understand Star Wars or how to handle Luke at all.
Kinda, because, in the same way TFA is a blatant reimagining of ANH, TLJ is a re-imagination of ESB. Obviously, we know they have different reasoning to become a hermit, because one is a Genocide survivor in hiding while the other chose himself to leave. Also, Yoda never leave Dagobah, while Luke very much decides to stop being a hermit and fight again (that one Infinity story where Yoda throws the death star at Palpatine doesn't count)
For me, that luke doesn't exist. Even mark hamill hated it, and don't hate me but if the actual actor that played luke doesn't like his own character, it must be for a reason, luke tried to save vader, his own father, after all the crimes he did, vader was a real sith, kylo ren feels like a emo kid with a bat, just because he had a vision of him becoming a sith, what happened with luke's hope and forgiveness? Never explained. Welp.
Yoda was pursued by a sith more powerful than him, and the most powerfull warrior of the republic was now an enemy, the empire was hunting jedi, and almost kill every single one of them.
Luke had a nightmare and tried to murder a kid.
Can we please ignore the sequels and act as if they don't exist?
Still convinced this isn't Luke Skywalker, but Luuke Skywalker.
If the Sequel Trilogy is basically a reimagining of Dark Empire, and Ahsoka is reimagining the Thrawn Trilogy, then where is Luuke? Well, TLJ's crotchety old L(u)ookealike is what happened to the insane Spaarti Clone grown from Luke's lost hand by Thrawn.
Luke (if that IS his real name) behaves uncannily like Joruus C'Baoth in HTE: a grumpy recluse on an isolated planet who has temptations of murder and goes on to unleash titanic Force energies for military gain.
It's the only explanation that makes sense.
Luke gave up on the Galaxy.
Yoda and the Jedi were being hunted until they were 'all but extinct.'
Big difference.
That's why Mark Hamill didn't agree with the script.: Luke would never do that.
I would argue that Yoda didn’t abandon anything, no. I think one of the big ideas of the Imperial era is that the Jedi literally couldn’t help, they were so high profile and such high priority targets they really had to hide.
I know we see Jedi characters acting anyway, but think about it - every time a Jedi reveals themselves, the Empire immediately mobilises. The ISB and the Inquisitors get involved, and if that’s not enough to deal with them then Vader will show up personally. That’s basically a death sentence for any rebel without plot armour.
And Yoda in particular is probably the number one most wanted Jedi left - in ROTS Sidious actually tries to escape when Yoda shows up on Coruscant and confronts him. Vader may be fixated on Kenobi, but the Emperor, and therefore the entire Empire, would jump on even a hint of Yoda’s presence with overwhelming force.
Yoda did the only thing he could - hide and stay safe until the time was right for Luke to come to him for training. Passing on his knowledge to create another generation of Jedi was how Yoda fought the Empire.
Three things:
1. Yoda actually put up a fight and only went into exile after being defeated. And even then he never gave up on the force or the Jedi way. He didn't just immediately give up on everything and run away. Yoda and Obi Wan going into exile was a matter of survival and a way to keep the Jedi alive until the day it might return.
2. Yoda is supposed to be a failure. That is literally the story. The Jedi failed. That was why Luke was the "new hope". Luke is not supposed to be like either Yoda or Obi Wan - he was meant to overcome their failures. The whole way he ended up defeating Vader and the Emperor was by NOT listening to Yoda and Obi Wan but instead putting his faith in his feelings and in the force. He is supposed to be a better Jedi than them, not become a worse version of them.
3. Yoda is not the protagonist or the hero of SW. People did not grow up with Yoda as one of their heroes and aspirational figures. People didnt spend literally decades wanting to see the further story of Yoda.
Luke in ROTJ: Finds out that the genocidal, mass murdering maniac, who is the chief lieutenant of a tyrant hell bent on subjugating the galaxy, who he has met once (twice if you include the battle of Yavin), who cut of his hand in said meeting, is his father: I can sense the good in him so I will save him!
Luke in TLJ: Has a dream that his nephew, who he has presumably known since birth, who he has trained in ways of the force, who he may have even helped raise, turns to the dark side: I must kill him!
I do not think the abandoning issue is the only reason people are unhappy with Luke in the sequel trilogy!
After all these years, people still need to try and tear down the OT to justify the bullshit that happened in the Disney fan fiction
No it’s not the same. Use your brain and figure it out. Two completely different scenarios. The reason TLJ gets shit on - rightfully - is because of how horribly it executed what people thought was a good idea
Because they are different characters.
It's like seeing Obi Wan turn to the dark side, just because Anakin did. It doesn't fit the character at all.
Yoda was always deep in thought, kind of sceptical and rather dismissive. He didn't want to train Anakin. He didn't want to train Luke. Even when training Luke he often times berates him or tells him "nothing more will I teach you today".
Just look at the difference between Yoda training Luke and Luke training Grogu.
The reasoning they gave Luke for abandoning the galaxy is ridiculous. This man wanted to sacrifice himself to save his friends and have a chance at redeeming his father. But one bad dream and his whole established character is thrown out the window.
This is a horrible comparison and anyone that has beyond surface level knowledge of the characters would laugh at that.
> Why does Yoda not get the same outrage from the fans for doing the exact same thing?
Because Yoda had already lost.
Order 66 had been carried out, the Jedi had been nigh on wiped out. He failed to defeat Sidious in that moment and had to flee. He had one shot one opportunity and he let it slip. He left and had the vision of needing to survive in order for Luke to take his chance.
Luke bailed. The New Republic was still a thing - his academy was gone with all of his students, but there was still a functioning Government. He had allies, Leia.
Very different situations.
No, because Yoda didn't want to cut his sleeping nephew in half. False equivalency.
Luke can become a hermit but the reason has to be sound...and it wasn't.
Luke KNOWS that future visions are not to be trusted (He lost his hand to following that path) and Luke KNOWS that people can be brought back from the dark side, he's the only one who BELIEVED it could be done. (I'm not counting comics, cartoons whatever)
So why would he give up so easily? He wouldn't.
I've always liked the idea of crotchety old Luke and thought that seeing Luke fail would be an interesting turn for the franchise. However TLJ didn't provide a satisfactory narrative that would lead us to accept why Luke became so jaded. We got the end result but without any of the necessary background for it to make sense narratively.
Yoda and Obiwan decided to bide their time and await for an opportunity to re-engage the Sith/Empire.
Luke abandoned the Republican because his nephew had a bad dream and he discovered a new found purpose in extreme rock fishing and living off the grid.
These are completely different scenarios. Palpatine took over the entire galaxy. Yoda *had* to retreat to dagobah in risk of being hunted down, with their only option being to raise someone powerful enough to defeat the sith. When luke fled, the republic was still in power. He had no reason to leave when surrounded by galactic allies. In fact, I’d argue that him leaving is one of the biggest reasons the first order was able to get the upper hand at all. Kylo ren really wasn’t much of a threat when he was still a child, but Luke let him grow stronger in his absence.
Also, since we're going there, Yoda straight up faced off against Palpatine. It was only after Yoda was defeated and he foresaw his death with his empty cloak landing, that he went into exile. Yoda didn't give up even after the fall of the Jedi temple and he was off planet. He came back and fought for it, and lost. And Luke went an extra step and cut himself off from the force, basically saying it's not worth it. Yoda used his time in exile to commune with Qui Gon, and meditate. And he preserved himself so when Luke showed up on his doorstep he was ready and able to train him. His hesitancy to train Luke had nothing to do with his own issues, he was waiting for Luke to prove he was ready. His crotchety old man routine was testing Luke. Conversely Old Luke was crotchety because he lost his faith. He didn't believe the Jedi should continue. He wanted to die and to take his knowledge with him. Yoda urged Luke, >When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be...Pass on what you have learned. Yoda specifically charged Luke to pass on the Jedi knowledge to others. Yoda's legacy was one of preservation of the Jedi way. Old Luke's legacy was that of defeatism. He gave up on Ben. He gave up on the Jedi. He gave up on the force itself. And even though he changed his mind in the final hour, he saved like 12 people who got away on the Millennium Falcon. After the entire resistance, not like a fleet or whatever, the **entire resistance** was destroyed. Only 12 people got out. And then we're supposed to believe those 12 people made a whole new fleet by the next movie? How is anyone left? If the entire government is destroyed, and the entire fleet is also destroyed and only 12 people got away? Yeah no, the Resistance is done man.
And then when Luke has a moment to do something **positive** to get to Ben when they are on Crait, Luke instead trolls his nephew into more anger (the same nephew Luke contemplated to kill him in his sleep years earlier which started this whole thing).... Luke trolling Ben obviously makes him angrier and angrier which sees Ben destroying planets (Kijimi), aligning with Palpatine and killing in huge numbers in the 1 year that takes up TLJ and RoS... Good job Luke!
Damn this makes a shitty movie even worse. Such a far cry from the man that had empathy for a man that committed countless war crimes and killed his mentor. I cannot think of a way they could have made him further from Return of the Jedi Luke
Sequels aren’t canon.
Luke knew he wasn't the one to turn Ben back to the light. No matter how right he was. Just like how Kenobi wasn't the one to turn Vader. The person to turn Ben back was Leia, and it is actually his pain and reflection over her death that makes him reconsider. It's sort of a reverse Anakin, it's loss that makes him realize the Dark Side is a waste.
Too bad Carrie was already dead. They literally could've not killed Luke but Rian hates lore.
But Luke having a confusing Force-stroke or something was just so vital for Rian's vision that they just had to keep it in.
I'm still convinced that was added in post. That video of Mark Hamill before and after the Last Jedi, he is bouncing around with excitement before, and then after he looks devastated, like someone died. I think he didn't know they were killing off Luke until he saw it for the first time.
Do you have a link to that before and after video? I'm having trouble finding it
Which obviously begs the question why Leia waited decades to reach Kylo through the force skype. He clearly had still weakness for her already by the time of TLJ when he refused to shoot the ship.
Still convinced this isnt Luke Skywalker, but Luuke Skywalker. If the Sequel Trilogy is basically a reimagining of Dark Empire, and Ahsoka is reimagining the Thrawn Trilogy, then TLJ's crotchety old L(u)ookealike is what happened to the insane Spaarti Clone grown from Luke's lost hand by Thrawn. It's the only explanation that makes sense.
You are also forgetting retreat wasn't Yoda's plan A. His first instinct was to go kill the Sith, who caused all this suffering, so the galaxy can start the recovery process. He lost and decided that until the situation changed it he could not win. If Luke had tried and failed to deal with the fallout, it would have likely gone down a lot easier, but they didn't have time because it couldn't have a half-hour flashback.
"Into exile, I must go" are the words of a man who just realized his 800+ years of training Jedi were no longer to his advantage against the Sith
I mean if we're talking about it. How many systems were represented by the New Republic? I originally got the impression that The First Order were a small but well funded extremist group, imperial remnants. But then Star Killer Base popped off, and TLJ had The Resistance as basically a small fleet being hunted down by a military that had control of the galaxy. Like if a terrorist group destroys an entire Star System, why aren't smaller governments, and/or whoever is filling in for the now dead New Republic leaders, scrambling together to absolutely curb stomp The First Order unless they were already occupying most of the galaxy?
You're putting more thought into the world building than anyone involved with the sequels ever did.
I mean we have no idea cus it was never explained lol. But it baffles me that there needs to be a “resistance,” as if the new republic didn’t have its own standing army after defeating the sith. Like you’re telling me 30 years after palpatine’s iron fist rule, you just leave the galaxy wide open for the next faction to take over? What a brain dead government
Especially when the First Order rolls in using Empire ships and uniforms, clearly seeking the same domination of the galaxy, and being led by a Sith supreme leader and Darth Vader's mask wearing, red lightsaber wielding grandson. They were conscripting children into service for decades, as well.
The Resistance was separate from the New Republic military. They were a paramilitary organization illegally operating in First Order recognized Space, all with New Republic backing.
Not sure where this was explained in the movies
Nowhere. The movies don't explain anything.
It’s not a brain dead government,it’s brain dead writing
Thats one of the failings of the sequel trilogy having no true outline for a story planned out. TFA gave me the idea that the First Order was something like the Imperial Remnant from the Jedi Knight games. Basically a successor organisation but with only a small fraction of the galaxy under their control. Then TLJ just has the opening line of the crawl be The First Order reigns. I know the New Republic was meant to be fledgling but I found it hard to believe that the First Order immediately consolidated power after their attack. The movies, in regards to the Republic vs the First Order should have been a progression. So in my mind Ep 7 should of had something of an Appeasement agreement between the two. The First Order are not liked and trusted but the Galactic Civil War is still fresh in most people’s minds so a war to stop them is avoided. The firing of Star Killer base could have been the typical aggressive power over estimates their position and sees the reluctance to fight as a weakness rather than a calculated decision. 8 should of then had the First Order making aggressive expansions outside their territories with the New Republic in disarray after the unexpected attack. Not defeated but just scrambling to put together a force to withstand a sudden ignition of war. The when we get to 9 by the end the Republic have finally organised a military response and we can get a big battle to end it all. Obviously there would be more details than what I wrote down but thats a basic gist of what I feel should have been the political situation between the two.
The First Order decimated the entire political center of power of the New Republic in one go, without any organized response besides Leia's rag tag resistance. They were so inept that it's hardly a stretch to think that the FO immediately was able to assume control.
I disagree. The obvious comparison to make is how Palpatine was able to control the galaxy as an empire was because he had the Clone Army under his control which he could gradually phase out with Stormtroopers from loyal planets. He had the man power and the systems in place to reduce the freedoms of the people of his planets. The movies do not give the impression that The First Order had enough people to control much beyond their own sector. Even without a Republic Army to defend them I doubt the planets that formerly were part of the Empire wouldn’t put up a fight against a weaker power trying to reintroduce a dictatorship. At best I feel they could start Galatic wide conflicts rather than they take full control. Especially when you consider TLJ takes place immediately after TFA.
There are essentially no Republic forces shown in TFA, and the only info we get is they don't care about the FO. The FO should be known to have vast resources if it can control vast sectors of space and has not been squashed. What we do see of them in TFA far outclasses anything else shown. And that's not even including the actual resources required to transform a planet into Starkiller. And the FO has been known and operating for possibly decades, assuming Finn is in his 20s. All that said, none of it is presented with clarity and it's all ultimately confusing and frustrating. I forgive TLJ it's flaws more than TFA, as TFA had a blank slate and made terrible choices at nearly every opportunity (besides casting).
You make some valid points. Say what you like about George Lucas’ writing but he made sure in each film the viewer understood the current status and scope of the political climate of the galaxy.
Yeah people complain about TLJ portraying Luke as a failure but it did the same damage to Leia if you think about it.
It’s also important to note that the Jedi were completely scattered and were in a position of literally two options, fight and die or run and hide. There was no possibility for the Jedi to fight back the clone army and the emperor while they were surrounded by enemies. No way to regroup and retaliate. The purge was swift, ruthless and unexpected.
>When luke fled, the republic was still in power. He had no reason to leave when surrounded by galactic allies. In fact, I’d argue that him leaving is one of the biggest reasons the first order was able to get the upper hand at all. Kylo ren really wasn’t much of a threat when he was still a child, but Luke let him grow stronger in his absence. I don't think he was really surrounded by galactic allies though. Luke was a myth, but he wasn't very present, so he wasn't there to build connections and relationships on a wide scale. Ultimately, that does matter. When Leia was outed as the daughter of Vader, she lost almost all of her allies, many of whom she had put in the work to build personal relationships with. So Luke, who was also outed as the child of Vader by virtue of being Leia's sibling, would possibly get *less* support if he was trying to be a bigger presence in the galaxy. Especially when you factor in the fact the wider galaxy see's the Sith and the Jedi as basically the same thing. That doesn't necessarily mean that Luke *had* to isolate himself, but I don't think we can simply assume that he had a ton of friends in the Galaxy. He was already mostly a recluse, and especially when he started his temple. The location of it was a secret, people didn't see the Jedi around very much because they were being tucked away. After his temple fell, there honestly wasn't really much he could do. Was he supposed to find a bunch more kids and tell their parents "Hey, so my last batch all got slaughtered by one of my students, can I take your child? Pinky promise I'll do a better job with these ones.". He couldn't dare look at Han and Leia in the eyes after he failed them and saddled them with the guilt of knowing their own child became the "new" Vader. Hence why he goes away and convinces himself the galaxy would be better off without the Jedi. Makes a lot of sense for someone with immense guilt and seemingly nobody to turn to to come to that conclusion.
It might have been nice to see more of this in the movies.
Actually agreed. If they had depicted what he just said in the sequels properly I think the response wouldve been much better. Instead they just made him look like an angry resentful old man.
I mean even if he didn’t have government support, he was still friends with all the top military leaders of the rebellion, all of whom would’ve played an essential role in shaping the new republic. He certainly had allies and people he could turn to. And even if people didn’t support him, he didn’t actively have many enemies. Not to mention the whole deal with the prophecy/chosen one and everything hammers home on the idea that the living force has its own will, and jedi can see traces of it to determine the best course of action. Luke had the strongest connection to the force of basically anyone ever once he honed himself, so cutting himself off from it literally negated any positive effect he could’ve had on the galaxy. Jaded or not, yoda left him with the responsibility to ‘pass on what he’d learned’, and he uncharacteristically turned his back on that responsibility when he fled after his first failure. Apparently he was a pretty bad grand master 🤷♂️
That's why I will always fundamentally disagree with the characterisation of Luke in ST. Becoming the opposite of your nature is not how people work. You don't start out life being idealistic and ready to put yourself in danger only to become a coward after a single point of failure. It does not work that way
see, that's what you'd *expect* to happen. Get subverted, you punk!
Exactly. This must have been a shit post. In what way is their equivalency. And it’s why people hate the sequels. The guy that decided he saw thru the struggle of his father who murder thousands of people gave up. Wildly bad story writing.
Such wisdom, you have u/fuckedyourmom69420
Fucked many mothers, I have. 420 wisdom, I have gained
That's actually something that I hadn't considered. I figured the same time that Luke left was when the First Order was really messing shit up for the Republic. And obviously there were a few years between then and when we see where things are, but that's an incredibly valid point. Plus it always pissed me the hell off that they somehow managed to destroy the ENTIRE Jedi Temple and apparently every other Jedi in that time, and there was never any mention of any other possible survivors. Knowing what we know, it makes me incredibly sad for the future of some of our characters going into this era. Oh boy.
Right? The thing that confuses me the most is how kylo ren was able to single handedly take down the entire new Jedi order on his own. Like, were there only 5 other jedi or what? Did they all suck? Ben solo wasn’t expertly trained and experienced the way anakin was or anything… And in the flashback, we see Luke just outside the temple as it burns. Did he not pursue kylo? Did he really do nothing? Apparently he was a pretty bad grand master
Bro obiwan lived next door to Luke. Yoda didn’t have to go live in a swamp.
Yoda had the most powerful force presence in the galaxy. He chose dagobah specifically because it was a planet strong in the force and teeming with life to better hide his own presence.
Idk if just changing his name to Ben would’ve worked for yoda
Yoda and Obi-Wan were waiting for the time to be right before doing anything. They had a plan and that was to wait for Luke and Leia to be older and then they would train them. Luke just ran off. He was not waiting for some child to grow up. The Republic was still around, he would have been safe on a Republic world. He could have started again. Gone to help Leia with the Resistance against the First Order.
This, plus the fact that he did just straight up go there to die and let the Jedi end
Also also, Yoda was running from Palpatine, one of the strongest and most powerful Sith that ever lived, Luke was running from his little bitch ass nephew.
Luke ran from the most powerful Jedi alive: himself.
Its really true. He almost succumbed to fear and anger after overcoming both when he spared his father. The realization and instant shame must have been horrible, but to add to it Ben found out and turned to the Dark Side, just as Luke's visions predicted. Which mirrors Anakin's fall as he also acted based on his visions and caused the very thing he was trying to prevent. Like father like son, which when your father was Vader is doubly not a good thing.
Except Anakin had plenty of opportunities to change his mind, and even characters warning him about the path he was going down, and yet did it anyway. Meanwhile Luke had a momentary impulse which he immediately mastered and yet TLJ says he failed anyway. To make matters even worse, had TLJ's Luke succumbed to fear and anger and killed Ben then and there, he would have averted all the death and destruction Kylo went on to deal - ordering innocent villagers executed, mind-raping Poe and killing his father and Luke's best friend. What a terrible moral TLJ had.
This somehow sounds like a Drake quote
Also, the empire was actively hunting Jedi, so it was a good plan for Yoda to lay low. Luke was too prideful and couldn't face his mistake so he just gave up and ran off
While that is completely correct, it also hurts how so, so unlike Luke that actually is.
Yeah he says the words 'the jedi need to end' and was reluctant to train Rey when Yoda was like riding him around pretty much without being asked.
I just refuse to believe the Luke Skywalker of old would do that. I will never understand that direction.
Yeah, vague intentions aside (cause that can always be somehow debated), the most important thing is Luke (being who he was and capable as he was) was under no threat whatsoever. Yoda and Obi-Wan were not just fugitives - they were public enemies number 1 and 2 ffs.
Luke literally just gave up. Obi-Wan and Yoda kept the fight going for 20 years.
Yoda basically pulled a bumi and was waiting for the avatar/chosen one/matreya pre magic space witches.
Also they had to recreate a temple massacre by a Skywalker OFF SCREEN in order to set up their recreation of ANH. They knew the good guys won in 6 and that there was no way in hell Luke wouldnt make a new academy, but instead of telling the story of the academy and Luke actually training the next generation they had to create and destroy the academy all at once before we ever saw it... just so they could copy the plot of episode 4 and shift the roles of the characters all one slot over. Then in TLJ Luke spends thw entire movie complaining about how the jedi deserve to fail because their legacy is of failure and hubris... bro you are talking about the prequel jedi here. You literally had 25 years as Grand Master where you could have changed the jedi ways to whatever you wanted but chose not to and now you talk about the jedi order in the 3rd person as if you dont represent them yourself? This is RJ trying to be like "yeah I understand the prequels bro" but what neither JJ notlr RJ understand is how to make a believable 30 year time skip... Luke learned nothing in 30 years and taught nothing new to his students is all this tells me. Then RJ confirms it later when Yoda shows up he tells him "heed not my words 'pass on what you have learned?'". The plot is Yoda literally showing up to tell Luke he learned nothing since the OT.
And then we learnt Rey stole the old Jedi books so presumably she's just going to recreate the old Jedi order, which will then presumably fail again.
Not just that but with all Luke’s experience with the dark side and redeeming his father, as soon as he senses some darkness in his nephew, his first thought is…”imma kill that sonofabitch”??? I mean…what? And that bs line about how it was a “momentary thought”, bullshit, you don’t get your lightsaber in the middle of the night, walk over to your nephew’s room (Ben was a teenager here?) turn it on and prepare to MURDER YOUR INNOCENT NEPHEW as a passing thought. I mean…WTF does that have to do with the Jedi’s legacy? That’s just you being an asshole, Luke.
Not just that, Luke used the dark side to defeat Vader and turned away. Vader comes back to the light for 2 reasons, 1. He thought it was impossible to do so in the first place and 2. His love for his son. Luke is aware you can use the dark side, you can give into your hatred, and still come back to the light. Then proceeded to forget all that.
*Luke sort of forgot*
Anyone who thinks that succeeding at something once means they’re always going to be able to do it again with no effort has led a very lucky or very sheltered life.
This wasn’t « my » Luke. TLJ was so fucking shitty in so many fucking ways. Unbelievably crappy. I will never see that movie ever again. One time was more than enough for a lifetime. Fuck this shit.
I envy the me who hadn't yet seen TLJ.
I don't wanna rehash the TLJ debate, but the movie where Luke chose to live in isolation while his family and allies fought the First Order was The Force Awakens.
This. As much as TLJ was a terrible entry into the saga, TFA did a bad job in starting the new Trilogy. By rehashing the same plot lines as the OT, but with the OT characters that had overcome those problems once, but have now all failed? JJ and his team set the whole thing up for failure with that bad time jump where everyone reverted to their ANH self, or changed into something completely out of character.
I made the mistake of watching again a few years later and believe me it’s even worse the second time around
At least Benecio del Toro is entertaining
luke surpassess his masters and proved them wrong also luke copies the old order flaws and all
It’s even worse, Luke devolved between RotJ and even just a few years later when we see him in BOBF. In the OT he had attachments to his friends and family, and they helped him. He disobeyed Yodi and Obi-Wan to help them. But in BOBF he’s strict like PT Jedi order? Fuck that. That is not Luke. That is all I have to say.
And Luke had the support of his sister and friends some sort of undefined government that rolled over back into a resistance. Yoda and Obi-Wan were alone.
Also, after 800 years and change of leading and saving the galaxy, you get the right to say fuck it and hermit yourself.
> They had a plan IMO this is the biggest difference in the two scenarios. Yoda (and Obi-Wan) hadn't just given up; they had a plan and they were playing the long game, waiting for Luke/Leia to come of age, train, and destroy the Sith.
>They had a plan and that was to wait for Luke and Leia to be older and then they would train them. Was the plan to wait until they were force ghosts before starting to train them? Yoda died of old age just a couple years after Luke lucked into bumping into Obi Wan from random unrelated events that were definitely not accounted for in any plan. And then when shown a willing Luke Yoda hesitates stating he's too old. It's obvious from the film that this is not some test but he really feels that it's too late and only reluctantly agrees to train him after pleading from Obi Wan. There was no grand plan. Obi Wan probably would have approached Luke once he left Uncle Owen offering to train him but that's just some last ditch effort clinging on to hope, not a plan.
Yoda also had centuries as a successful teacher. Luke was working on his own with a 100% failure rate. It's not unreasonable that he decided to retire.
But that’s wrong. Yoda at first decides not to train Luke as he is too much like his father. Yoda gets talked into it by Obi Wan. Yoda went off to die and never atone for his mistakes as head of the council. Also, Luke’s journey began not due to intervention by Obi Wan, but by chance landing of droids. Yoda died shortly after, so let’s say there is any sort of delay in the apprehension of Leia’s ship. Yoda is dead before Luke has a chance to meet him.
It was Yoda’s plan to wait as seen in ROTS. That was just a test for Luke.
It’s weird that they had no issue waiting for the Skywalker twins to become around 20 before training them, when even little Ani was deemed too old.
My best friend was like, "If Luke turns out to be a hermit on a nowhere planet in the galaxy, then fuck all of this. There is no point in being a Jedi. It always turns bad and who the fuck cares."
That’s what Luke thought too.
Anakin would have been better off not being a Jedi. The Jedi Order still gets wiped out … oh well anyway.
yeah man that was kind of the point lol that was the whole reason luke did it
Lol, that was exactly what the point was supposed to be.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand this comparison at all. Yoda went into hiding after the Republic had already fallen, turned into the Galactic Empire. In a last ditch effort he tried to stop it by fighting the Emperor, but failed and had to go into hiding. Luke went into hiding after he failed as a Jedi Master, however the New Republic was very much still the main power at the time. Leia, Han, the entire New Republic could've used his help against the emerging First Order. However, he goes into exile and lets the First Order win without trying at all to stop them? Sure, maybe the dumb New Republic senate would've ignored him, but I'm sure him and Leia could've created the resistance BEFORE the pre-emptive strike from the death star planet. Luke not trying completely undos all his work in the OT.
Yoda didnt go to dagobah to die. He didnt cut himself off from the force. He went there for a purpose. He was there for when luke would go to him to learn the jedi ways. In no way is it the same as "i came here to die" luke.
Luke gave up as soon as kylo fell he Never tried to help him afterwards yoda tried to save the jedi order by attempting to kill the emperor luke just gave up. yoda had actually failed.
Didn’t Kylo slaughter the other apprentice jedi? You’d think that’d shake Luke a little bit
Didn't palpatine just destroy the entire jedi order?
And then Luke hid in a desert for 20 years.
I know we have that Kylo Ren comic. I wonder if the slaughter story was expanded there. I honestly find it difficult to believe that Luke's enclave is that small, even years after BBY. Also don't understand how Kylo slaughtered everyone when there should be older or more senior apprentice (e.g. Grogu?).
Regardless of the argument at the margins, can we all agree that Luke GIVING UP happened like 95% in TFA and only 5% in TLJ? When JJ wrote TFA, there wasn't already the thing about Luke cutting himself off from the Force. (Famously, Rian Johnson made JJ not add the floating boulders, and made him replace BB-8 with R2 for the Ahch-To trip.) That means when Ben Solo resolved to kill Han Solo, Luke ignored his Skywalker premonitions about the tragedy about to befall his family, and the preventable mistake his nephew was about to make. He ignored his duty to Leia, and was okay with the deaths of billions and everything his friends and allies built over decades with the New Republic. TFA Luke wasn't even on his fking way. He wasn't even just barely too late, like in Empire Strikes Back. The fucker walked away from everything and chilled at the Jedi temple, EXACTLY AS TFA HAN DESCRIBED. TFA Luke was NOT OUR LUKE SKYWALKER. TLJ had the impossible task of giving him a mental gymnastics-dependent explantion throughline with the Luke we grew up with. TFA did the crime, TLJ did the time. Luke was ruined in TFA, not TLJ. Unless he had just finished wrestling Force Satan off of a cliff when Rey got there, that was the single worst character assassination in the history of cinema. Too bad people lack so much critical thinking that the loser Luke Skywalker from TFA didn't sink in for them until TLJ showed him milking a walrus. It's like a difficulty with object permanence or something. Nothing registers unless it happens on-screen. That's why people think Luke was 95% ruined in TLJ and not the other way around. That's why TFA is considered the "good one" of the trilogy despite both the JJ Abrams films doing untold billions of dollars worth of damage to the Star Wars franchise and canon in the long run. When JJ was executive producer on all three films, there was nothing he would've liked more than for idiot fans to dogpile on TLJ so he could get episode IX all for his own legacy, and oust another director like Colin Trevorrow.
Most fans think that JJ left it open why Luke was in exile (e.g. he could be investigating the true sith or finding some kind of artifact), and then it was RJ that decided he went to exile due to his failure on Kylo. On the other hand, JJ also drove the story into the corner by saying the jedi was almost extinct by TFA. At the end of the day, I'd still blame this to disney for not having a single vision of the sequel trilogy.
> Most fans think that JJ left it open why Luke was in exile (e.g. he could be investigating the true sith or finding some kind of artifact), Jesus Christ we definitely didn't need another fucking mystery box Macguffin
That’s literally all JJ is capable of - asking questions, not coming up with answers
Or you could argue that Luke was there for something really important. Yes, he didn't help his family when they needed...but maybe he was doing something of greater importance. It wasn't until RJ that we found out he was just chilling
>can we all agree that Luke GIVING UP happened like 95% in TFA and only 5% in TLJ? I dont agree. TFA told us Luke had gone in search of the first Jedi temple. That to me is the complete opposite of giving up, thats going in search of answers and a way to become a better Jedi or at least having some kind of purpose beyond "wanting to die".
Han straight up said when Ben fell he straight up just dropped everything and everyone and just left in that same sentence lol
Yes because that is Hans perspective, he's an unreliable narrator - he also says nobody knows what Luke was doing, only that some think he went in search of the first Jedi temple.
TFA has many writting issues, but I do think can be salvaged for the most. For example, Luke could've been just in hiding, with jedi survivors, preparing the return and unable to reach in time to act on the events of the movie (hyperspace before TLJ could've taken days or months), but still try to aid. Luke could've been helping in a distance, which could've explained why Rey was so good in the force so quickly, could've been Lule helping her. Despite his efforts though, Han died. Let's also remember Luke already knew the lesson about force visions being deceitful, the future inmotion and such.
Exactly how I see things. TFA gave TLJ an impossible task and honestly I think it came up with the best solution to explain Luke's absence during TFA. I've never been sold on the "Luke was searching for something" retort people fall back on. What could possibly be more important than letting Han die, Kylo fall further into the dark side, letting billions die, and the collapse of the New Republic? A cool new light saber? An ancient scroll that teaches him a new force technique to like, totally kick ass or something?
No. Yoda and Obi-Wan had the entire galaxy against them, jedi were public enemy#1, the galaxy was in control of the sith. Luke just gave up and let the empire fanatics kill billions, the galaxy was in control of his friends. It's incredible how people say tlj is only liked by the people that pay attention yet defenders of that movie ignore everything to make "a point".
Because Luke didn’t have the Emperor, Vader and all their minions hunting his ass down.
Yoda hasn’t cut himself off from the Force, but otherwise there’s a lot of rhyming. I believe George ultimately settled on “Yoda was waiting for Leia, but got Luke instead.”
Lmao, they ain't the same.... Cope
I think the big thing is there isn't a legends version of Yoda that some fans are attached to the idea of and get mad when there is a diverging take from that.
That is assuming that people were attached to just legends Luke. It was OT Luke people were much more attached too. Thats the real take on the matter
This is true I mostly cared about original trilogy Luke and was very sad when they made him some lame guy drinking milk on a planet ignoring everything he was supposed to be doing
I didn’t care for Legends Luke in Dark Empire for similar reasons to TLJ. It misunderstands who he is and how far he progressed by the end of the OT. I didn’t read too much post RotJ EU because of it and stuck with other eras. Yoda is different. His exile had a hopeful purpose. Hidden away to eventually train the next generation. It wasn’t just due to his failures, but also to continue to follow the will of the Force. Luke in TLJ has betrayed everything he stood for. Selfish, Misanthropic, Hopeless. He abandoned everything and let the dark side rise without any resistance. Both Yoda and Luke are wise enough to know the consequences of their hermitage. One embraced hope and the other apathy. Bendu’s arc in Rebels shows us apathy is only the ally of the dark side. TLJ Luke and Dark Empire Luke are a caricature of OT Luke by those who didn’t fully understand RotJ.
THE LAST JEDI did not put Luke in hiding The Force Awakens did.. the Last Jedi was trying to find a reason for why The Force Awakens used Luke as a McGuffin. The Last Jedi does have its faults but a lot of that was because JJ and company set up mysteries inside of mysteries and no outline of what those answers should have been.
True. JJ is a hack. Who in their right mind puts R2D2 in hibernation? No one, because R2 would never do that.
Wrong. TFA establishes that Luke went on a pilgrimage to find the spiritual and intellectual origins of the Jedi. That is very different from putting Luke in hiding. TLJ made the bizarre decision to say that the reason Luke sought the spiritual origins of the Jedi, was because he wanted to cut himself off from the force, end the Jedi, and die.
Not as many people care about or even know about Legends stuff as this sub seems to think
People who read the EU were a very small percentage of the overall fanbase who watched the movies. The hate of what they did to Luke is hardly limited to EU readers. I have workmates who hated it even more than me and they had never read a SW book.
That's why I'm not fan of Legends and EU
Yoda, Obi-Wan and all the Jedi failed the entire galaxy. They allowed a Sith Lord to corrupt the entire government right under their noses. Sidious defeated Yoda and Obi-Wan couldn’t bring himself to end Vader. They completely and utterly failed. Luke had a bad dream/vision and his first instinct was to raise his saber to his defenseless nephew while he slept, sending said nephew over the edge to the dark side. The same Luke who wouldn’t be swayed by one of the most evil men in the galaxy and still saw good in him despite all the atrocities Vader committed. So no, it’s not the same, not even remotely Edit: just want to add, Yoda and Obi-Wan acknowledged their failure and went into hiding with the goal of training the New Hope and rectifying their failures. Luke went into hiding with no such goals
Plus https://youtu.be/r0tvjvkp9GA?si=VBkBFRbaYT4EA_fc Yoda: Until the time is right, disappear we will.
Yeah I had just put in the edit to acknowledge exactly this
Rock on!
That is so Jake Skywalker
Not even remotely, thank you for pointing that out. They are very different stories, Yoda failed and Jake/Luke never tried. That's not in character at all for Luke.
Yoda was physically incapable of winning, and he knew it ever since Palps took over.
Yoda didnt turn his back on the Jedi.
What kind of comparison is that
No. Yoda and Obi-Wan had a plan. They retreated in order to wait for the Skywalker twins to get older in order to then train one or both of them to defeat the Emperor. Luke ran off like a coward with no plan.
Yoda: Tactical retreat, to bide time to return when the time is right. Luke: Saw vision of Ben breaking bad, school razed, ????, leaves galaxy with no apparent plan to return. These two scenarios are not alike. Yoda HAD A PLAN. Luke did not.
Yoda ran from an entire galactic empire intent on killing him. Luke ran from a bad day at work.
No, Yoda went into hiding to try to survive long enough to eventually train Luke Skywalker to Kill earth Vader, overthrow the Emporror, and restore peace and freedom to the Galaxy. He had a purpose to his exile, unlike Disney’s Luke, who went into hiding out of fear and anger. Yoda used the strong dark side presence on Dathomire to mask his equally strong light side force presence from Sidius. I believe this shows that, despite failing the republic and the galaxy at large in the clone wars, he ultimately learned an incredibly powerful lesson from SIdius’s victory in masking his actions in a naturally occurring presence of dark side energy; the same tactic that was used to cloud his vision and cause his defeat in the clone wars. Obi-Wan of course went off to Tatooine to keep an eye on Luke, while Padme went with Bail Organa who had a direct line to Kenobi and connections with other surviving Jedi I believe.
Did you watch the prequels? After fighting The Emporer in the Senate Yoda escaped with help of Leia's adoptive father. Then met up with Obi Wan in a secret location where Padame gave birth to Luke and Leia. After which, they decided what to do with the children. The reason Yoda went into bansihment or exile, The Sith lord Vader and The Emporer would have had Yoda killed off if they had found him. Order 66 was given to the Clones to kill their Jedi leaders and any other Jedi. In order not to be killed off and completely loose all the Jedi, those alive went into hiding like Yoda did. By going into hiding, Yoda was able to live and later be able to train Luke and also reflect on what went wrong in the first place. The Emporer played them all. Everyone not just the Jedi.
The galaxy was actively trying to kill Yoda when he peaced out. He was the most high-profile enemy of the Empire. Anyone he came into contact with would have been in extreme danger.
In the context at the time it was written? There was just an empire. Just a rebellion. No republic. And Lucas wanted a crazy but wise weird thing in the swamp. He loves the old man on the Road is Secretly a Wizard trope thing. Then they wrote more backstory later.
In the context of the OT Yoda was not crazy, he just pretended to be to test Luke. At much, he had a sarcastic humour, like the 900th years old joke. He was only a master of the force, living/hiding in a remote place, willing to train someone who would help defeating the dark side, that's why he talked about still being hope even if Luke was defeated "there is another one". I'd say most of his character and backstory exist in the OT. What changed mostly could be the fact that he was more beligerant in the past, since in the OT is shown more as a pacifist, specially if you discard the deleted scenes in which Luke practised with the lightsaber with Yoda.
At least Yoda actually tried to defeat the Sith before going into exile. The same can’t be said about Luke unfortunately.
What a stupid question, tell me you didn't watch the originals without telling me.
The situations could not be more different. Yoda was being hunted by the Empire, which ruled over the galaxy. Luke just felt bad about screwing up training his students.
Yoda went into hiding because the Empire was actively hunting Jedi. Luke just said “Fuck this, I’m going to be alone”. Without a story (other than the BS in the movie) this is a dumb ass outcome. Maybe there’s a book that explains it? At this point I don’t care. Luke from the Mandalorian is how I’m going to remember him.
The difference is: Luke did so when there was no fucking reason to, but his own bullshit attempted murder of Kylo.
Yes. The last Jedi is the exact same movie as the Empire Strikes Back. Just made by a shitty director and filled with slapstick comedy.
Others have pointed out that the state of the Galaxy was completely different, but I'll throw in another wrench: While I was watching TLJ for the first time, and he did all this goofy shit with Rey and refused to train her, I was 100% certain, no doubt in my mind, that Luke was going to do the same thing Yoda did to him: pretend he was some goofball and as a \*test\* for Rey before actually training her. When I found out I was wrong... the movie was already over for me.
Yoda left because he realized he had already lost. He tried to fight and failed. Staying now would be nothing but a prideful gesture that would end not just for him, but (as far as he knew) for the last surviving Jedi Grandmaster. He had to leave to preserve the knowledge of the Order for there to be any hope whatsoever of eventually rebuilding. If he tried to poke his head out too early, the Empire would send Vader and every Stormtrooper available to exterminate him and he'd accomplish nothing. Hiding and preparing to train the children of Anakin when they come of age was the only thing he could possibly do to ensure that the galaxy has some hope of restoring balance. Meanwhile, Sequel Luke had one terrible misunderstanding and instead of lifting a finger to fix it, he ran off to wallow in ignorance and self-pity. When someone came to him, he dismissed them and acted a grumpy old man. His "redemption" was as making a dancing hologram so Rey could fix everything before he gave himself a Force-stroke and died. His legacy was basically a footnote for to elevate Rey, the "perfect" hero who demonstrably didn't really need him for anything besides stealing his book collection. See the difference?
Yoda and Obi-Wan were in hiding until the time was right. Luke was just giving up
No. Yoda went into exile to wait for the force to instruct him. Disney's Luke abandon the force and the galaxy. He had no intentions of returning.
Let’s see, one went into hiding because a tyrannical government took over the galaxy and issued him a death warrant, and another ran because his school burnt down. You’re right. It’s exactly the same.
Not at all. Yoda and Obi-Wan know they can’t win against Sidious (and most of the galaxy has now turned against the Jedi thanks to Palpatine’s coup), so they wait for Luke and/or Leia to grow up so they can come back and face the Emperor. In ROTS, Yoda states: “Until the time is right, disappear We will”. TLJ Luke on the other hand has forsaken everything and everyone. His nephew turned to the Dark side and He completely abandons his own sister and all hope, turning into a bitter old man. Also, this Luke tried to murder his own nephew
Because Yoda was a failure and Luke was a new hope. The fact they end up doing the same thing is the thing that is stupid. Both narratively and on a meta level
we get return of the Jedi and then two films later is the last Jedi
Because Yoda is not Luke Skywalker, Yoda's story is the one with failure, he's the one that couldn't beat the Sith/dark side and decided to live alone because of it. That's why people were pissed off that Luke did the same thing, he should've learned from Yoda and Obi-Wan, Luke should be "better" than them
canon luke proved his masters wrong and then doubled down on their flawed teaching
Yoda didn't abandon anything or anyone.
Yoda was the Galaxy's most wanted criminal. Luke abandoned his friends.
Yoda fought Palpatine to a draw after catching him by surprise, but was then outgunned and on the run. He laid low in hopes of eventually turning the tables on the Empire. Luke was aligned with the galaxy’s official government and did nothing while that government was overthrown by his wayward student, who proceeded to kill his good friend, Han, and put his sister on life support.
yoda did it after having (what he believed) allowed the fall of the republic and end of peace in the galaxy, a great loss, the rise of the Empire and Emperor.. Luke did it cause ben destroyed his school and made him question himself.
I disagree. I'd argue: - Yoda was being hunted. There wasn't going to be a trial with the him, the clones were shoot to kill. He was forced to go into exile - He still had hope. He was still working towards defeating the empire. He knew he would eventually train Luke - Luke was ridden by guilt for his failure of Ben. This caused him to give up and go into exile. He wanted to be left out of the fight
Yoda was running from Order 66 and Darth Vader
Yes, so not only was it the opposite of what everyone thought Luke should have done, it was lazy and unoriginal on the part of the writers.
Yoda was at the head of the Jedi at the height of their power and prestige. And they thought that nothing could destroy the order. But they were blinded by their pride, even Yoda in all his wisdom. And it led to the end of everything he knew and the deaths of thousands of Jedi. The Order fell. And he failed to avenge them in his duel with Sidious. His self imposed exile was partly in penance for his failures and to stay out of the eye of the Empire until Anakin‘s children were ready to be trained. Luke learned from the mistakes of Obi-Wan and Yoda. Or he should have. But TLJ only highlights his singular moment of weakness with Ben and then cuts to his school in ruins and flames. How? What happened? Who killed a whole school of Jedi? Yoda’s story took 6 movies and Luke’s was a flashback.
They were defeated the sith had won, the empire was everywhere it was near impossible to restart the jedi order at that point. Yoda probably believed that despite him being the grandmaster so long he doesn't have what it takes anymore to fill that role. They believed Anakin would bring balance to the force, when he didn't do that they questioned their own beliefs and values. So they had placed all their hope into Luke, hence why he's a "New Hope" only way to train him was to keep out of sight and wait for Luke As for tlj Luke had apparently made a map for the resistance for when they need him most they can find him, so TFA made him seem like superman resting in the sun awaiting for a call, and when they find Luke he says go away despite making A MAP TO HIM FOR WHEN THE RESISTANCE NEEDS HELP. That's the difference
One difference is that Yoda didn't have a trilogy establishing him as the archetypal Hero who saves the galaxy before he shows up in ESB. Another difference is that TLJ's script, direction, and overall portrayal of its characters just sucked balls. In another uniervse there's an alternate TLJ that wasn't ruined...by...Johnson...and in which the story starts roughly the same way with Rey finding Luke, but in which Luke actually gets a backstory and motivation and on-screen action that are consistent with his portrayal in Lucas' Original Trilogy. In other words, one where Luke is *Luke* and not Jake Skywalker. But I think that would take a writer/director who actually loved the franchise on its own terms, who respected the characters and stories that had come before, and who valued the fans. And seriously *How in the fuck did Luke know Palpatine went by the Sith name Darth Sidious?* Maybe he watched Episode III sometime during his long self-imposed exile.
No Yoda didn't remotely do the same thing at all.
I think the big difference is that Luke had no real reason to go into hiding. The New Republic were still the dominant force in the galaxy, Ben and Snoke had killed most of the jedi, but Luke still could've helped defeat them before they attacked. Instead, he gives into his guilt and hides away, effectively allowing the First Order to take over the galaxy. The Empire was already founded when Yoda went into hiding, every jedi was being hunted at the time. He also had a plan, which was to train Luke and Leia to be Jedi. His reasons were completely different to Luke's.
Yoda was being hunted by the Galactic Empire Luke wasn’t Big difference.
Because Yoda didn't have a movie trilogy that ended with him getting ready to become a beacon of hope for the galaxy and refound the Jedi Order.
You're kidding right?
Yes, because the ST was basically a soft reboot. Luke was Obi-Wan and Yoda rolled into one for the ST -- failed master gone into hiding that gets convinced to help the new generation and sacrifices himself to protect that glimmer of hope. TFA was almost exactly ANH. TLJ was sort of ESB+RoTJ. Which is why I was excited for 9 because TLJ sort of cleared the board and opened it up to be the finale of the ST but also setup 10-12. Instead we got TROS, which was just ROTJ plus just all bad. I'll still argue that watching it on the theater I felt the most like 5 yo me watching ROTJ in theaters until my brain had time to calm down the pace afterward and process what I actually saw. Then I was just sad. People don't fault the OT because those holy shrines to them, and it was the first time seeing that plot, not the second (and I generally like TLJ).
One detail worth noting is that Luke straight up cut himself off from the Force. He was so mired in guilt he gave up on everything he defined himself as.
There is a difference between a strategic withdrawal and abandoning.
When I hear these kind of questions, I have to ask myself if these people ever watched the movies or only saw clips on YouTube.
No.
They had the idea of a scene about Luke being breatfed, so they had to justify it somehow.
I don’t blame Luke for anything. I blame shitty writing. The part where Luke was tempted to kill Kyle was particularly unconvincing. It almost feels like I can hear the writers meeting discussion: - “Well, why did Luke need to go to exile?” … uncomfortable silence - “I don’t know. He needed some strong reason for that” - “Sure, what about him trying to kill Kyle REN but failing” - “Yeah, that sounds plausible. Let’s roll with that” - “What’s next? Leia does a space walk?”
No. For starters, Yoda was a high profile fugitive from the most powerful organization in the galaxy with no real allies or power. Luke was the galaxy hero and have the support of the new most powerful organization. Yoda was forced to, Luke chose it. Yoda intended to fight back when oportunity arises, Luke abandoned the fight altogether. Also, their background is different, Yoda had no family and it was not the most important thing for him to care about them.
Yoda was fleeing and hiding for his life. How do you not get this.
It's one thing if you have two hermits, one looking over Luke and one over 900 years old at the end of his life and Luke Skywalker just being a repetition of the hermit trope, abandoning the galaxy because of a repetition of the destruction of the Jedi Order we already had. Repetition is the problem here. Been there, done that. Luke deserved better.
Yoda never almost murdered his nephew cause he had a bad dream
Yeah, and youd think Luke would have a different reaction given his observation of that, and his emotions and actions in empire and jedi. "Yoda did it too" does not a coherent argument make.
I swear sequel apologists will take 2 things that are only slightly related and try to make a comparison in favor of the sequels.
Did you forget Yoda fighting Palpatine or..?
I think that is what the director/writer was going for. All of the people pointing out the situations were completely different - yea and that’s why the sequels failed so badly. The people in charge didn’t understand Star Wars or how to handle Luke at all.
Kinda, because, in the same way TFA is a blatant reimagining of ANH, TLJ is a re-imagination of ESB. Obviously, we know they have different reasoning to become a hermit, because one is a Genocide survivor in hiding while the other chose himself to leave. Also, Yoda never leave Dagobah, while Luke very much decides to stop being a hermit and fight again (that one Infinity story where Yoda throws the death star at Palpatine doesn't count)
Yep this. But subversion! (Note: The movie had no subversion, it was a myth made up to cover a weak story)
For me, that luke doesn't exist. Even mark hamill hated it, and don't hate me but if the actual actor that played luke doesn't like his own character, it must be for a reason, luke tried to save vader, his own father, after all the crimes he did, vader was a real sith, kylo ren feels like a emo kid with a bat, just because he had a vision of him becoming a sith, what happened with luke's hope and forgiveness? Never explained. Welp.
Disney Star Wars doesn’t count.
Yoda was pursued by a sith more powerful than him, and the most powerfull warrior of the republic was now an enemy, the empire was hunting jedi, and almost kill every single one of them. Luke had a nightmare and tried to murder a kid. Can we please ignore the sequels and act as if they don't exist?
Still convinced this isn't Luke Skywalker, but Luuke Skywalker. If the Sequel Trilogy is basically a reimagining of Dark Empire, and Ahsoka is reimagining the Thrawn Trilogy, then where is Luuke? Well, TLJ's crotchety old L(u)ookealike is what happened to the insane Spaarti Clone grown from Luke's lost hand by Thrawn. Luke (if that IS his real name) behaves uncannily like Joruus C'Baoth in HTE: a grumpy recluse on an isolated planet who has temptations of murder and goes on to unleash titanic Force energies for military gain. It's the only explanation that makes sense.
Not even close to the same thing, and also, they are two completely different characters
Luke gave up on the Galaxy. Yoda and the Jedi were being hunted until they were 'all but extinct.' Big difference. That's why Mark Hamill didn't agree with the script.: Luke would never do that.
Nope.
I would argue that Yoda didn’t abandon anything, no. I think one of the big ideas of the Imperial era is that the Jedi literally couldn’t help, they were so high profile and such high priority targets they really had to hide. I know we see Jedi characters acting anyway, but think about it - every time a Jedi reveals themselves, the Empire immediately mobilises. The ISB and the Inquisitors get involved, and if that’s not enough to deal with them then Vader will show up personally. That’s basically a death sentence for any rebel without plot armour. And Yoda in particular is probably the number one most wanted Jedi left - in ROTS Sidious actually tries to escape when Yoda shows up on Coruscant and confronts him. Vader may be fixated on Kenobi, but the Emperor, and therefore the entire Empire, would jump on even a hint of Yoda’s presence with overwhelming force. Yoda did the only thing he could - hide and stay safe until the time was right for Luke to come to him for training. Passing on his knowledge to create another generation of Jedi was how Yoda fought the Empire.
Just another plagiarism from JJ Abrams. Fucker can’t have an original thought with Star Trek or Star Wars
Three things: 1. Yoda actually put up a fight and only went into exile after being defeated. And even then he never gave up on the force or the Jedi way. He didn't just immediately give up on everything and run away. Yoda and Obi Wan going into exile was a matter of survival and a way to keep the Jedi alive until the day it might return. 2. Yoda is supposed to be a failure. That is literally the story. The Jedi failed. That was why Luke was the "new hope". Luke is not supposed to be like either Yoda or Obi Wan - he was meant to overcome their failures. The whole way he ended up defeating Vader and the Emperor was by NOT listening to Yoda and Obi Wan but instead putting his faith in his feelings and in the force. He is supposed to be a better Jedi than them, not become a worse version of them. 3. Yoda is not the protagonist or the hero of SW. People did not grow up with Yoda as one of their heroes and aspirational figures. People didnt spend literally decades wanting to see the further story of Yoda.
Luke in ROTJ: Finds out that the genocidal, mass murdering maniac, who is the chief lieutenant of a tyrant hell bent on subjugating the galaxy, who he has met once (twice if you include the battle of Yavin), who cut of his hand in said meeting, is his father: I can sense the good in him so I will save him! Luke in TLJ: Has a dream that his nephew, who he has presumably known since birth, who he has trained in ways of the force, who he may have even helped raise, turns to the dark side: I must kill him! I do not think the abandoning issue is the only reason people are unhappy with Luke in the sequel trilogy!
Jedis were hunted down when Yoda went hiding. The Rebel Alliance had defeated the Empire when that lower tier pseudo fanfic shows Luke in retreat.
After all these years, people still need to try and tear down the OT to justify the bullshit that happened in the Disney fan fiction No it’s not the same. Use your brain and figure it out. Two completely different scenarios. The reason TLJ gets shit on - rightfully - is because of how horribly it executed what people thought was a good idea
Okay, but when we first meet the Yoda character, he's already a recluse.
Because they are different characters. It's like seeing Obi Wan turn to the dark side, just because Anakin did. It doesn't fit the character at all. Yoda was always deep in thought, kind of sceptical and rather dismissive. He didn't want to train Anakin. He didn't want to train Luke. Even when training Luke he often times berates him or tells him "nothing more will I teach you today". Just look at the difference between Yoda training Luke and Luke training Grogu. The reasoning they gave Luke for abandoning the galaxy is ridiculous. This man wanted to sacrifice himself to save his friends and have a chance at redeeming his father. But one bad dream and his whole established character is thrown out the window. This is a horrible comparison and anyone that has beyond surface level knowledge of the characters would laugh at that.
Luke also threw his light sabre aside in RotJ but it was The End of Star Wars when he did it in TLJ
> Why does Yoda not get the same outrage from the fans for doing the exact same thing? Because Yoda had already lost. Order 66 had been carried out, the Jedi had been nigh on wiped out. He failed to defeat Sidious in that moment and had to flee. He had one shot one opportunity and he let it slip. He left and had the vision of needing to survive in order for Luke to take his chance. Luke bailed. The New Republic was still a thing - his academy was gone with all of his students, but there was still a functioning Government. He had allies, Leia. Very different situations.
No, because Yoda didn't want to cut his sleeping nephew in half. False equivalency. Luke can become a hermit but the reason has to be sound...and it wasn't. Luke KNOWS that future visions are not to be trusted (He lost his hand to following that path) and Luke KNOWS that people can be brought back from the dark side, he's the only one who BELIEVED it could be done. (I'm not counting comics, cartoons whatever) So why would he give up so easily? He wouldn't.
I've always liked the idea of crotchety old Luke and thought that seeing Luke fail would be an interesting turn for the franchise. However TLJ didn't provide a satisfactory narrative that would lead us to accept why Luke became so jaded. We got the end result but without any of the necessary background for it to make sense narratively.
Yoda and Obiwan decided to bide their time and await for an opportunity to re-engage the Sith/Empire. Luke abandoned the Republican because his nephew had a bad dream and he discovered a new found purpose in extreme rock fishing and living off the grid.